Open mike 04/07/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, July 4th, 2019 - 154 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

154 comments on “Open mike 04/07/2019 ”

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  1. johnm 1
    4 July 2019 at 7:20 am

    When crazy weather goes on and on, we worry “Is this the way it’s going to be now?” Canadian climate scientist Paul Beckwith says there is no new normal. We should expect extremes, swings, and surprises as the world warms.

    Paul Beckwith climate change interview—There Is No New Normal—Radio Ecoshock 2019-06-12
    Abrupt Climate Change = A Climate in exponential transition to a new thermal equilibrium. Its signs are extreme climate events happening, heat waves, flooding, wildfires, freezing cold snaps, drought etc..Looking at the paleo record scientists speculate we’re heading for a Pliocene or Eocene climate.

    • johnm 1.1
      4 July 2019 at 7:41 am

      June 2019 hottest ever recorded on Earth – “Temperature records haven’t just been broken. They have been obliterated.”

      https://desdemonadespair.net/2019/07/june-2019-hottest-ever-recorded-on-earth-temperature-records-havent-just-been-broken-they-have-been-obliterated.html

      Kevin and Guy were joined by Rory Varrato, a founding member of Extinction Rebellion NYC and adjunct professor of philosophy at Fordham University. Rory invited Guy to testify to the New York City Council’s Committee on Environment a day before New York City declared a climate emergency. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/nature-bats-last-07-03-19/id907162688?i=1000443546834

      • johnm 1.1.1
        4 July 2019 at 8:58 am

        Joe Neubarth

        18 hrs ·

        Shared via AddThis

        ·

        The simple fact of the matter is that we can NOT stop temperature rise at 2 degrees Celsius, because the Greenhouse Gases already in the atmosphere will drive Global Average Surface Temperature (GAST) far higher than 2 degrees.

        The CO2 that is already in the atmosphere will continue to raise temperature for the next 3 or 4 centuries. The Nitrous Oxide that is already in the atmosphere will continue to raise temperature for the next 3 centuries. The most powerful Greenhouse Gas of all is water vapor and it is increasing in the atmosphere approximately 7% for each degree of temperature rise. There is variance between the multitude of scientists out there as to the average heating caused by Water Vapor in the atmosphere. I have seen numbers from a low of 60% of Global Heating to 70% of Global Heating. That is impressive by itself, but a 7% rise in water vapor for each degree of temperature rise can kill us rather quickly. More Water Vapor means MORE HEAT retained in the atmosphere.

        It is all headed towards a tremendous heating climax and the uneducated Republican Idiots out there will say to each other, "Why didn't they tell us this would happen?"

        • Kevin 1.1.1.1
          4 July 2019 at 10:45 am

          Not that long ago that the mere mention of Guy McPherson's name was enough to get you kicked off a CC post on The Standard. Times most certainly have changed.

          • Incognito 1.1.1.1.1
            4 July 2019 at 11:05 am

            Can you back that up with a link?

            • Kevin 1.1.1.1.1.1
              4 July 2019 at 11:35 am

              https://thestandard.org.nz/arctic-monkey-wrenching/

              Search not working at the moment so hard to find without trawling. This is one example.

              • Incognito …
                4 July 2019 at 12:08 pm

                Thanks.

                Moderator note: usual rules under my posts – no CC denial, no “we’re all going to die” comments. Also, don’t link McPherson. Do start talking about what we can do.

                Authors are free to moderate their own posts as they see fit. That is not the same as site moderation.

                Has anybody ever been banned because of “the mere mention of Guy McPherson's name” without warnings and out of context?

                For example, using the name of the alleged Christchurch Mosque shooter will trigger Auto-Moderation but not impose an outright ban.

                There seems to be much mis- and possibly dis-information on moderation and I’d like to clear up any confusion if I can.

                • Kevin …
                  4 July 2019 at 12:23 pm

                  I didn't say banned. I said kicked off the post. My argument was that as long as the comment was reasoned and backed up with links, why would you eliminate, what is now pretty much accepted, as climate fact from discussion?

                  • Incognito …
                    4 July 2019 at 12:50 pm

                    Fair enough, that’s indeed what you said, and I agree with you but some may have different views on this and McPherson in particular. It remains the Author’s prerogative; OM is different.

                    BTW, the Moderator note asked not to link [to] McPherson, which is not quite the same as “the mere mention of Guy McPherson's name”. Nitpicking, I know …

                    • Kevin …
                      4 July 2019 at 1:23 pm

                      Thats was the first one I could find Incognito as search isn't working very well. There were a couple of others. Thanks for the reply though.

                    • lprent []
                      4 July 2019 at 5:12 pm

                      search: Whenever I get a weekend free….

    • WeTheBleeple 1.2
      4 July 2019 at 9:06 am

      https://www.quora.com/How-accurate-is-Paul-Beckwith-climate-scientist-when-it-comes-to-Climate-Change

      Not many supporters for this guy. Unless you like DOOM with your cornflakes.

      "other climate scientists more senior than him have made similar alarmist predictions that have turned out wrong. People like Beckwith are great recruiters for climate scepticism."

      • johnm 1.2.1
        4 July 2019 at 9:19 am

        Exponential abrupt climate change is DOOM, we simply refuse to understand or accept that this can happen to us! Beckwith is a respected climate scientist in the Northern Hemisphere. he doesn't make statements unless he's certain. Reality is the new alarmism. And of course we're in the 6th mass extinction too of this planet.

        His youtube vids have a very large comments section.

        It'd be a dull world if we all thought the same! 🙂 lol In the end what we think doesn't matter it's what the Planet is doing that does matter.

        • WeTheBleeple 1.2.1.1
          4 July 2019 at 10:20 am

          "I wouldn't lend him too much credibility on this subject. All of his scientifically published and peer-reviewed papers are on aspects of lasers, his actual area of academic expertise."

          "Paul Beckwith is a part-time professor at the University of Ottawa and declared the Arctic would be ice-free in 2013.”

          “We must declare a global climate emergency. Please consider a donation to support my work..” – Paul Beckwith.

        • greywarshark 1.2.1.2
          4 July 2019 at 11:35 am

          Scientists in climate change and their feelings and how they carry on and communicate.

    • johnm 1.3
      4 July 2019 at 9:51 am

      Abrupt exponential climate change continues its havoc:

      Entire cities in Japan ordered to evacuate as record rainfall lashes south-western region

      https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/japans-kagoshima-city-orders-600000-residents-to-evacuate-after-days-of-heavy-rain?fbclid=IwAR2V–pShBmML6G_nWEJY4AnMOC8ExjwlG6nZmwy_NhrSoEePq5wfQcDTNI

      TOKYO – About 1.12 million people in southwestern Japan were ordered to flee to safety on Wednesday (July 3), as heavy rain continued to lash the region bringing floods to widespread areas and threatening deadly landslides.

      The evacuation orders, as at 9pm local time Wednesday night (8pm in Singapore), remained in effect for vast areas of Kagoshima, Miyazaki and Kumamoto prefectures.

      The deluge, which began last Friday (June 28), is forecast to continue until at least Thursday (July 4) before storm clouds move east.

      Many areas have seen more rain in a single day than in a typical month of July, the weatherman said, as residents in entire cities, like Kagoshima City, Kirishima and Aira, were told to seek shelter.

      Some 869,000 people were advised to evacuate their homes, while 1.32 million others have been told to prepare to evacuate, based on a new five-tier heavy rain disaster warning system launched this year in the wake of deadly rains last July that left 225 dead.

    • Dukeofurl 1.4
      4 July 2019 at 11:06 am

      You couldnt really call him a climate scientist

      "He has earned a Masters in Science (M.Sc.) in Laser Optics/Physics. He also earned his undergraduate, with a Bachelors of Engineering (B.Eng.) in Engineering Physics."

      Has he even published in Climate Journals. seems to have been in a PhD program in climatology for 8-9 yrs. You would think by this stage he would have moved onto Post Doc research , but doesnt appear to have any published reasearch even on his earlier speciality

      Hes seems more of a chancer…..

      "He is involved in the very early stages of developing an entrepreneurial startup venture based out of Northern Europe, using the latest in innovative climate change thinking .."

  2. Morrissey 2
    4 July 2019 at 8:54 am

    UN Special Rapporteur on Torture now under political attack by “women’s advocacy group”

    Nils Melzer, UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, concluded that Assange has been tortured. He is now under political attack by a “women’s advocacy group” claiming they are protecting women & victim’s rights. Sexual assault survivors are striking back.

    @Suzi3D https://contraspin.co.nz/not-in-my-name-academics-publicly-attacking-un-torture-rapporteur/ …" https://twitter.com/helena_jennie/status/1146078394565550081 https://contraspin.co.nz/not-in-my-name-academics-publicly-attacking-un-torture-rapporteur/

    • johnm 2.1
      4 July 2019 at 9:03 am

      Way things are going a man and a woman will have to sign a legal consent form witnessed by a lawyer before you know what, to avoid future repercussions. 🙁

      • Morrissey 2.1.1
        4 July 2019 at 9:05 am

        This isn't about rape, and it never was. It's about government-led smearing and defamation and (so they fervently hope) the destruction of a radical journalist. And similar treatment for those foolish enough to speak out in defence of that journalist. Even U.N. officials are considered fair game for the treatment.

      • marty mars 2.1.2
        4 July 2019 at 9:18 am

        oh poor john – just listen when your partner/guest/friend/acquaintance/workmate/ stranger and so on says no – not too hard there eh john is it.

      • Psycho Milt 2.1.3
        4 July 2019 at 10:01 am

        Or you could go with dealing with your fellow humans as though they were your fellow humans and had autonomy over their own bodies. That seems to work a treat.

  3. mac1 3
    4 July 2019 at 9:02 am

    Apologies if already posted on The Standard.

    Pouty, potty, throw your toys out of the cotty time. From yesterday's The Spinoff, a fine piece of well-deserved piss-taking written by Toby Manhire.

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/03-07-2019/everybody-stop-being-so-mean-to-anz-immediately/?

    A beautiful last line. "We live in your world"! ANZ's advertising slogan. ROFPML.

    • ianmac 3.1
      4 July 2019 at 10:13 am

      Toby is quite right of course Mac. We should have great sympathy because as the ads always show, Banks are keen to take care of us all like a god beneficent. Ha!

      • mac1 3.1.1
        4 July 2019 at 10:53 am

        Pete Singer on 12 String guitar singing "The Banks are Made of Marble" a song I once sang in the Sixties with Prof Jim Flynn at a pary. He might not remember, but I do.

        • Neville Winsley 3.1.1.1
          4 July 2019 at 1:19 pm

          Great song!

        • alwyn 3.1.1.2
          4 July 2019 at 2:00 pm

          Minor point but it is Pete Seeger and he is playing a Banjo.

          It is a great song though.

          • mac1 3.1.1.2.1
            4 July 2019 at 2:18 pm

            Alwyn, that is a twelve string guitar on the Banks of Marble, Believe me, I know. I own and play a Fender twelve string from the early Seventies. Pete Seeger also played banjo.I have his book. I did own and play a banjo once in a double thumbing style so I know what they too sound like.

            Pete Seeger on 12 String guitar. If you like it, listen to his version of the Bells of Rhymney. The bells of Merthyr really do ask a topical question!

            He’s playing a 12 string even though the picture is a a six string guitar.

            • David Mac 3.1.1.2.1.1
              4 July 2019 at 2:35 pm

              Great clip Mac1. I think Pete Seeger represents goodness in the US. I like this Dylan song he recorded with a bunch of kids a few years before he died in 2014. There is beauty in it's simplicity.



            • alwyn 3.1.1.2.1.2
              4 July 2019 at 3:09 pm

              I'll take your word for the guitar. I really thought it was a banjo. I guess the way he is playing it is confusing me.

              Rather like the person who was asked whether he had ever confused a Bordeaux and a Burgundy. Reply was not for ages. Not since lunchtime in fact.

              • mac1 …
                4 July 2019 at 3:28 pm

                I had a great line once in a Roger Hall play, as I savoured the light shining through a wine glass, "You can always tell a good pinot, you know." All the time knowing I was about to roll around in delight a mouthful of rather sweet raspberry cordial. That was great acting!

          • mac1 3.1.1.2.2
            4 July 2019 at 3:16 pm

            Alwyn, beg pardon but did not see the spelling error. It's a common thing and one reason why anything I write as a newsletter editor is always vetted by someone else. One's own mistakes are often harder to see.

            I was taught as a grocer's son when adding money figures to always double check by adding the figures in the opposite direction.

            So, we agree then? Pete Seeger on the 12 string….. sounds like a game of Cluedo……. in the studio!

    • Graeme 3.2
      4 July 2019 at 10:55 am

      I was struck by the choice of image to head Toby Manhire's piece. It bears a strange resemblance, both physically and behaviorally, to the current leader of the national party

      • mac1 3.2.1
        4 July 2019 at 12:38 pm

        I see what you mean, Graeme. Strange? No. Entitleitis is a disease that strikes both baby and adult alike. It is a deficiency disease, self-diagnosed but never self-medicated. The symptoms can be severe, but are mostly psychological. The purported cause always is attributed to others from whom the treatment is also demanded. Often called colloquially, "S'mine fever" as the more articulate sufferer often avers, "Gimme. S'mine."

      • Rapunzel 3.2.2
        4 July 2019 at 3:24 pm

        You're not alone I suggested that on another NZ "chat" site yesterday, one that has become a lot more fractured than this one TBF.

  4. Dennis Frank 4
    4 July 2019 at 9:20 am

    Big versus Little: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/04-07-2019/little-pledges-action-against-google-over-grace-millane-suppression-breach/

    "The New Zealand government is considering a range of options in response, says Little, including legal recourse, on which it has sought advice. He has also asked the Ministry of Justice to “review how it notifies media about suppression orders as part of its work to implement the new contempt laws”."

    Watch this space, then. Global media giants conforming to law in individual nations is the thing. Global media law doesn't exist – international law exists to some extent, but lacks a method of enforcement…

    • Gabby 4.1
      4 July 2019 at 12:15 pm

      Andy will do such things— What they are, yet I know not, but they shall be the terrors of the earth.

  5. Dennis Frank 5
    4 July 2019 at 9:52 am

    Hipkins: "we need to modernise the New Zealand Public Service." Announcing the coalition's plan to do so a week ago, he outlined key points.

    "These include moving from outputs to outcomes, even though outcomes are harder to measure and harder to control." Who knew? Rocket scientists in Labour? Most people think outputs and outcomes are both results. Those educated would even use the word simile. Perhaps he's informing us of an in-crowd terminology employed by consultants to differentiate different kinds of decision-making processes.

    He also declared that "citizens don’t live their lives in in neat compartments." This is sad but true. Some are downright messy.

    "We’ve also removed performance pay for chief executives, introduced a Public Service Day and removed the cap on the number of public servants." Everyone will be tense with anticipation, waiting to see what will happen on Public Service Day. Will they line up in throngs to see public service actually being done?

    Anyway, "we need to come out of our siloes and take collective responsibility when getting traction on some of our most challenging issues and opportunities requires us to work cooperatively across the Public Service and beyond. That is increasingly the case in a world that over the last 30 years has become more complex. Issues such as climate change, security and inequality are global, and the pace of technology development means rapid change is a constant. The Public Service needs to change with it if we are to keep up." Damn right it does. They get it!

    So the coalition is "changing the Public Service – how it works, what it prioritises, who joins it and who leads it. A public service that is more fleet-footed and can shift its focus to where it will make the most difference."

    Bureaucrats efficient, tactically agile, on the ball? Old dogs doing new tricks? Cool, that's gonna be powerful magic.

    He said reform will shift "agencies from working as single departments to working as one, unified Public Service, able to quickly mobilise and tackle specific issues. The reforms will mean leaders in the Public Service will take joint responsibility for the whole of the Public Service, rather than just individual agencies, to tackle the country’s big challenges."

    Applied holism. Best not tell the bureaucrats that though (likely to cause mental indigestion). Clever move from the coalition! It'll produce an entirely new ethos: collaboration culture. But only if/when those involved enter into the spirit of the shift, and incorporate the praxis required for success.

    "Cherished public service principles like ‘spirit of service’ to the community, political neutrality, free and frank advice and merit-based appointments will be embedded in the new Act. These principles are important. They help safeguard the constitutional conventions governing the public service, promote ethical conduct, and enable cross-agency collaboration on services and outcomes for New Zealanders."

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1906/S00231/announcement-of-public-service-reforms.htm

    • Psycho Milt 5.1
      4 July 2019 at 10:09 am

      Most people think outputs and outcomes are both results.

      Most people aren't running organisations or managing people in those organisations. To those who do, there's a big difference between those things.

      Outputs is a number, a Key Performance Indicator – when you set those, your staff and your organisation (quite understandably) set to work to maximise the number they've been given as a measurement of their performance, and issues of whether they're doing the right thing by the organisation's customers, the environment, or whatever the hell else all take a back seat.

      Outcomes is how well you're achieving the actual purpose of the organisation's existence, which is a lot harder to measure than outputs and is why most organisations tend to go with measuring outputs instead.

      If the government can find a way to get public sector organisations to focus on outcomes rather than work to a number, that would be a great achievement and would improve the performance of those organisations a lot. Won't be an easy job, though.

      • Dennis Frank 5.1.1
        4 July 2019 at 10:24 am

        Oh I see. Yeah, numbers matter more to neoliberals, so the historical shift makes sense. Measurable results. Voters prefer their quality of life to be enhanced, and better governance is a key part of what they want…

        • Psycho Milt 5.1.2.1
          4 July 2019 at 12:30 pm

          Well, the Labour ones, at least. The previous Nat government seemed very keen on targets and KPIs.

          It's very hard to shift people's thinking about that, when everyone's gotten used to thinking of numbers as measures of their performance. Even the organisation's actual purpose may not be understood – I remember a systems thinking trainer telling me that he did a session for public service managers in which several of the managers thought that their department's customer is the minister.

          • Sacha 5.1.2.1.1
            4 July 2019 at 12:59 pm

            The trouble with the way government agencies have been distorted over the last few decades is that they *do* behave as if their only responsibility is upwards to the sacred cheeks of the current minister. And are rewarded for that.

    • ianmac 5.2
      4 July 2019 at 10:17 am

      We’ve also removed performance pay for chief executives,….

      What a farce and good riddance.

    • WeTheBleeple 5.3
      4 July 2019 at 10:42 am

      Being part optimist, this is most excellent in the direction it points.

    • David Mac 5.4
      4 July 2019 at 2:09 pm

      Between good intentions (outputs) and a job well done (outcomes) is the abyss.

      Is 'Performance pay for public service chief executives' an oxymoron?

  6. Sabine 6
    4 July 2019 at 10:01 am

    happy fourth of july

    https://imgur.com/n8psbx1

    • veutoviper 6.1
      4 July 2019 at 3:25 pm

      That is wonderful, Sabine! LOL

      I really cannot comprehend/accept the farce that Trump is about to turn the day into in Washington DC from the media reports to date – but that about sums it up!

  7. Dennis Frank 7
    4 July 2019 at 10:08 am

    Gordon Campbell has an excellent exposition on what was missing from Hipkins' announcement of public sector reform: whistle-blower legislation improvement.

    "Late last year, the results of a long and comprehensive study by Griffiths University in Australia showed that 30 per cent of New Zealand public agencies had no system in place for recording and tracking concerns, and 23 per cent had no support strategy for staff who raised concerns. According to the Ombudsman, people don’t even know that any legal protection for whistle blowers even exists:

    Research released by the Ombudsman last month found only 9 percent of respondents had even heard of the Protected Disclosures Act – “an alarmingly low number given the importance of the act for all New Zealanders,” Chief Ombudsman Peter Boshier said. Worse, “21 percent said they have witnessed serious wrongdoing at their workplace or previous workplaces”.

    Only 40 percent of employees believed their jobs would be safe if they reported the wrongdoing, and 34 percent thought they would lose their job. Lower paid workers were particularly worried about job security."

    Gordon adds this: "Reportedly, the wording of the existing law is even vague as to what kind of wrong-doings might be covered in which settings. In New Zealand workplace conditions, the legislation’s focus on theft and corruption – rather than say, on bullying or intimidation – is also arguably misplaced."

    "In sum, that’s quite an array of problems. After all, there will always be a risk involved in bringing the wrong-doing by one’s superiors to the attention of senior management. Given the imbalance of power in the workplace, whistle blowers will always be at risk of retribution for not being team players, or for raising issues that cast the failures of their bosses in a bad light – even when those concerns are still being handled in-house, and (supposedly) in a confidential fashion."

    "It gets even riskier if the internal process fails, and the media enter the equation. Currently, it does not look as if New Zealand is feeling inclined to follow Australia’s example and offer legal protections to those staff who alert the media to wrong-doing. Obviously, effective whistle-blower protections are not simply a public service concern. Yet since the lines between the public and private sectors are being expected to increasingly blur in future, such protections need to be treated as a central element of any major reforms, and integrated within them."

    Right on! Let's hope the minister takes note and acts accordingly in his directives to his ministry and amendments to legislation.

    http://werewolf.co.nz/2019/06/gordon-campbell-on-the-ways-the-public-is-being-left-unprotected-by-the-public-service-reforms/

  8. marty mars 8
    4 July 2019 at 10:47 am

    Bet the anti-immigration heavy breathers on this site will stay quiet on this – oh they may blame the parents or the countries these kids are from or this or that.

    Disturbing drawings by children recently held in migrant detention centers showing sad figures in cages have been released by the American Academy of Pediatrics, which last week warned of longterm trauma faced by immigrant children separated from parents or guardians under the Trump administration’s border policies.

    The pictures were drawn last week by unaccompanied 10 and 11-year-old migrant children after being released from ⁦Customs and Border Protection (CBP) custody. They were obtained by NBC News which said they were provided to the AAP by a social worker in Texas.

    “The fact that the drawings are so realistic and horrific gives us a view into what these children have experienced,” Dr Colleen Kraft, former president of the AAP, told CNN. “When a child draws this, it’s telling us that child felt like he or she was in jail.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/03/migrant-children-drawings-horrific-conditions-cages

    • RedLogix 8.1
      4 July 2019 at 11:03 am

      Of course it's horrific. Now precisely what do you propose doing about it?

      That's what get's me, every time I read an article loudly denouncing this debacle, I also read a deafening silence on exactly what the USA should do that they would be happy with.

      • marty mars 8.1.1
        4 July 2019 at 11:07 am

        Save your tears – deleted – personal

        There are lots of alternatives put up by lots of people so please don't start your attacking me bullshit.

        deleted – true but it doesn’t matter

        • RedLogix 8.1.1.1
          4 July 2019 at 11:30 am

          Asking you what you think the solutions might is not attacking you. The article you linked to doesn't outline any, so it's reasonable to ask.

          • marty mars 8.1.1.1.1
            4 July 2019 at 11:34 am

            try google lazy bones

          • greywarshark 8.1.1.1.2
            4 July 2019 at 11:52 am

            Do you want to compare mm's ideas to your own RL? What are you thinking should be done about it. Could you reiterate them to refresh our memories?

            • marty mars 8.1.1.1.2.1
              4 July 2019 at 12:05 pm

              ffs – deleted because words in anger and all that shit

            • RedLogix 8.1.1.1.2.2
              4 July 2019 at 12:40 pm

              I've outlined some responses below to Sabine.

              The demand for migration to the developed world is potentially unlimited and likely to become more urgent as climate change destabilises more countries near the tropics or close to sea level.

              This is a massive globalised problem with no easy local solutions. The UN's recent compact on migration looked to be a step in the right direction, but as became quickly obvious, most people are still not ready to see the problem from a universal perspective. Most people are still at some level locked into a tribal mindset and will resist national sovereignty being imposed on by a global body such as the UN.

              What is happening on the USA/Mexican border only highlights one element of a story that is much larger than the clown Trump and the circus Washington he is presiding over.

              • McFlock …
                4 July 2019 at 3:20 pm

                Well, I guess we'd better help develop the developing world then. And promote peace rather than bomb them. That'll stop your hordes of migrants.

                But unfortunately, the nation best placed to stop wars and promote international development is the nation currently arguing in court that its concentration camp guards don't need to provide toothpaste and soap to the children it stole from their parents.

                • RedLogix …
                  4 July 2019 at 3:39 pm

                  Well, I guess we'd better help develop the developing world then.

                  Yes please, although the developing world has to leapfrog the West. We cannot afford the environmental impact of them simply copying us. We need the next 7 billion people who enter the middle classes to be better than us.

                  That's a challenge I think they are entirely capable of rising to if only we'd had the humility to ask them respectfully.

                  As for the Trump debacle, I'm underwhelmed by people who simply repeat over and again why it's all so awful. We knew that four years back the moment he declared as a candidate. It's unhelpful just to keep saying so.

                  I still contend the Dems lost that damned election, and did so specifically when Sanders was eliminated. I've since spoken with dozens of US citizens at various work sites who all agree with me on this. In general terms understanding why the left made this mistake, and taking ownership of it remains the crucial call. And encouragingly I'm seeing fresh candidates like Yang and Gabbard doing just this.

                  • McFlock …
                    4 July 2019 at 3:55 pm

                    I think that we do need to keep reminding ourselves that this is awful, this is worse than it was before, that this sort of shit is not normal. And that the next election is the one that we should focus on.

                    The US is not only being more inhuman than in previous administrations, it's detaining people who cross the border for longer.

                    And this year dolt45 gets his military parade. The one that a couple of years ago people laughed at the thought of.

                    Remembering that things are bad, that they are not normal, reminds people why the next election is important.

      • Sabine 8.1.2
        4 July 2019 at 11:35 am

        what could the us do?

        stop sanctions on Venezuela/Iran for a start.

        stop propping up dicktators to foster their own goals at home

        stop that war on drugs which in essence is simply a war on everyone else and their poor relatives to enrich a few (banks, military,etc)

        stop building anymore prison for profits (i know that will give you a sad, but then you would have to get a new job if we would stop locking up people on pretenses rather then actual crimes)

        start treating asylum seekers as humans rather then bodies that occupy a bit of concrete floor for 775$ a night cell but then profit must be made and people like you need a job

        start actually working on reforming imigration rather then stopping any meaningful legislation from coming forward – something not done since the late 80s and reagans 'amnesty' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986

        start keeping families togethere – Obama was sued for this shit and complied and the orange shitshow can do the same

        stop pretending that two year olds can a. care for themselves, b. can defend themselves in a court of law

        send children that have legal family in the US to their relatives

        but then you are not asking for ideas, right? You just want to say loudly that there is nothing, nothing that could/should/be done, and besides if a jailors wages depends on keeping people locked up then people need to be locked up.

        Also somewhere in the New Testament – the one that old testament cultist refuse to actually look at, the one that involves that hippy do gooder Jesus Christ – is says….

        The King James Version of Matthew's gospel relates that:

        At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
        And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
        And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become
        as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
        Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
        And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
        But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
        Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
        Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
        And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
        Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 18:1–10)

        good grief dude, even for you this is a piss poor comment.

        • RedLogix 8.1.2.1
          4 July 2019 at 12:26 pm

          stop sanctions on Venezuela/Iran for a start.

          Most of these immediate refugees are not coming from these two countries, so it's hard to see what immediate effect this might have.

          stop propping up dicktators to foster their own goals at home

          All the big powers have history propping up unpleasant dictators of one sort or another. I'm firmly on record as opposing empire of any sort, so you can assume I'm more or less on board with this one.

          stop that war on drugs which in essence is simply a war on everyone else and their poor relatives to enrich a few

          Personally I loath drug dealers; if I had my way I'd just execute the fuckers on the spot. But I realise this isn't realistic. Experience tells us that in some matters that legal prohibition is the wrong instrument to deal with a problem and causes more problems that it solves. (Much the same as the hate speech debate.)

          On the other we cannot ignore the harm drugs do. With that in mind yes ending the 'war on drugs', which was ill-conceived and hugely damaging, is long overdue. But selling that idea to the American people needs some thought and intelligence.

          stop building anymore prison for profits

          Private prisons are an abomination. Bad assumption to think I support them.

          people like you need a job

          I've never worked in a prison, but I have socially known people who do. They are awful places full of broken, damaged and dangerous people. Working in these places is hell and I've nothing but respect for those people who do.

          start actually working on reforming imigration rather then stopping any meaningful legislation from coming forward

          Yes. I totally agree on this. The demand to migrate to the developed world is potentially unlimited and managing it is massively difficult. No policy will ever make everyone happy, but the utterly dysfunctional gridlock in Washington ensures nothing useful gets done. This is direct consequence of political polarisation.

          start keeping families together

          There is every good reason for this. It's my understanding however there is US law that is preventing children from being imprisoned with their parents. The argument was that it effectively punishes them for something their parents did. In principle it sounds like a good idea, but at this scale and in this context it's an abysmal failure.

          This law needs changing …

          send children that have legal family in the US to their relatives

          Seems reasonable. But then again if the children are admitted to the USA and their parents are permanently deported that creates another issue down the road.

          stop pretending that two year olds can a. care for themselves, b. can defend themselves in a court of law

          Of course they cannot. Why would you think I'm pretending this? Clearly the numbers have exceeded the authorities ability to manage this situation decently or efficiently.

          The USA does not want an open border with Mexico. No-one here seems to advocate for this; so when families arrive undocumented there is a very hard problem. And like most many hard problems, they're made worse when we pretend they have easy solutions.

          You just want to say loudly that there is nothing, nothing that could/should/be done, and besides if a jailors wages depends on keeping people locked up then people need to be locked up.

          Was that where I said this was a 'horrific debacle'?

          • Bruce 8.1.2.1.1
            4 July 2019 at 2:33 pm

            ' Personally I loath drug dealers; if I had my way I'd just execute the fuckers on the spot. But I realise this isn't realistic. '

            I wouldn't go so far but at least they could stop giving them knighthoods.

            • RedLogix 8.1.2.1.1.1
              4 July 2019 at 4:33 pm

              Fair enough. Just don't put me in charge of enforcing drug policy ….

    • One Two 8.2
      4 July 2019 at 11:38 am

      The AAP has an autism epidemic and is asleep at the wheel. Complicit would be more accurate.

      The child numbers involved with the autism epidemic (and the families impacted) are orders of magnitude greater than AAP are signalling concern for here.

      Will you be posting on the autism epidemic in USA anytime, Marty?

      • marty mars 8.2.1
        4 July 2019 at 11:51 am

        give me a link that I can look into and I very well may post on it – but please no idiot conspiracy sites or voice

      • greywarshark 8.2.2
        4 July 2019 at 11:58 am

        Will you One Two take the problem of the autism in USA further here? I don't think that marty mars should be piled on because of being concerned about one thing and expressing it here – freedom of thought and expression in mind. You are good at seeing further than others on everything One Two and surely you would like to sure on this.

      • WeTheBleeple 8.2.3
        4 July 2019 at 12:07 pm

        There is no epidemic. Only a sound byte from media.

        But I have conflicts of interest.

        This is a personal affliction. Also spent two years post grad as part of the 'minds for minds' network.

        As a child they didn't even know what they were looking at. As diagnostic tools have improved the actual prevalence of the disease is beginning to surface. We've still not got the full picture as misdiagnosis of females appears to be common.

        It used to be these people were 'demon possessed'. Handy diagnosis if you want to burn some lippy women at the stake.

        Possibly genetic predisposition plus environmental factors plus make up of gut microbiome may all contribute: helping to explain the wide variety of severity and symptomatic presentation of ASD; and the difficulty in identifying cause and effect.

        Not a subject your average moron journo could grasp.

  9. Dennis Frank 9
    4 July 2019 at 10:53 am

    Greeks go to the polls in three days time, and there's an excellent analysis of the current political situation there online: https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/how-syriza-lost-the-left-upcoming-greek-elections

    "Meanwhile, what is left of the left in Greece dreads the possibility of a Syriza victory. The best thing for the country, they say, would be Syriza’s total dissolution and disappearance from the political scene. People in the KKE (Communist Party) and Antarsya (the acronym, spelling “rebellion,” for a conglomeration of Marxists, anarchists, and left-wing populists) are looking for a resounding defeat of Syriza on July 7. Many are convinced that the Coalition of the Radical Left will soon pass into the dustbin of history, where it belongs for being socialist in words but capitalist in deeds. Let this be a warning, they say, to anti-establishment movements around the world that have faith in people like Jeremy Corbyn in Britain, Pablo Iglesias in in Spain, Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez in the United States".

      • Dennis Frank 9.1.1
        4 July 2019 at 11:50 am

        "What these millions wanted a break from was not even true neoliberalism, but what I would call bankruptocracy — a new regime in which the greatest power was wielded by the most bankrupt bankers. Tsipras’s surrender in July 2015 closed that window of opportunity. And there’s no sugaring the bitter pill — the European elections were a complete catastrophe for progressives."

        So it was a mistake for the radical left to betray the people? Gosh, why am I not surprised Yanis failed to say so.

        “I have the privilege of speaking to a lot of bankers — for some reason, they like talking to me. They completely accept that socialism for bankers and austerity for the population brought about a major defeat for European capitalism. Social democrats on the ground admit that it has been terrible, as do some conservatives, as well as the Greens and the Left. But the disconnect lies in the lack of an organized political plan to shift us out of this.”

        Well, that does prove he is capable of getting to the point sometimes, eh?

        • Dennis Frank 9.1.1.1
          4 July 2019 at 11:56 am

          " DiEM25 put forward the plan for a Green New Deal. The Greens themselves are so conservative, so ordoliberal, and so scared that conservatives will accuse them of being fiscally irresponsible, that they end up recycling ordoliberalism."

          That's what democracy does. It cows people. Greens are mainstream nowadays. Show them a radical edge that requires progress, they'll get spooked. Okay, perhaps an overstatement. Not always. angel

          • greywarshark 9.1.1.1.1
            4 July 2019 at 12:08 pm

            Perhaps Varoufakis has recognised the wrong behaviour of the past which has killed off a reasonable way forward for the Greek people. He now seems to be trying to enliven good ideas of the past, and that confuses people to the extent that it verges on necromancy. No-one who is involved with politics and finance thinks that it is a rose garden.

      • CHCoff 9.2.1
        4 July 2019 at 7:07 pm

        The ball bearings seem to be coming out of the British system abit

        They had a local body election and their more pro-european vote came out for that one, for their EU election the more independent vote came out as the new Brexit party cleaned up.

        A recent by-election had controversies.

        The wires seemed crossed. At some point the wrong one might come loose to a fuel tank or something.

  10. marty mars 10
    4 July 2019 at 10:57 am

    Takes courage to admit this – takes courage to be the person that others can talk to, takes courage to talk. Be courageous people.

    Mike King has opened up about how the weight of pressure of being named New Zealander of the Year led to a mental breakdown last month.

    … The comedian says New Zealanders need to open up to their friends, family and that if you haven't had a heart-to-heart with someone in the past 12 months, you're part of the problem.

    "It's a topic of conversation and we're trying to change the conversation away from 'if you're in crisis, ask for help' to 'if you haven't had a friend talk to you about their problems, you're probably the problem'.

    "We all have problems, and if you haven't had a mate come to you in the last 12 months and talk about their feelings – not 'my wife's being horrible' but 'I am feeling like this and I'm feeling like that' – then you're the problem. You need to look in the mirror and ask yourself, 'What am I doing to make it OK for people to ask for help?'"

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12245688

    • bwaghorn 10.1
      4 July 2019 at 12:18 pm

      Na hes wrong . Sure I’ve had periods in my life were I needed a shoulder. But I've also so had many periods of years were I was all good thankyou.
      That doesn’t make me part of the problem!

      Hes like the alcoholic that thinks any one who has a bender is also an alcoholic. Just plain wrong.

      • marty mars 10.1.1
        4 July 2019 at 12:21 pm

        he's wrong? ffs waggy you are a legend – lol classic gold humour

        • WeTheBleeple 10.1.1.1
          4 July 2019 at 12:35 pm

          I'll repeat something I've posted recently.

          The beauty of being human is that we're not all mad on the same day. On a bad day my mates can support me, and on their bad days, I support them. In this manner we get through hard times together.

          It takes a village to raise a village.

          • RedLogix 10.1.1.1.1
            4 July 2019 at 1:45 pm

            Very true. Or as another person put it "humans tend to outsource their mental health".

            • Rosemary McDonald 10.1.1.1.1.1
              4 July 2019 at 3:05 pm

              Or as Boris puts it…Miserable being must find more miserable being. Then, he's happy.

              (Or Gorky)

        • bwaghorn 10.1.1.2
          4 July 2019 at 4:55 pm

          You and Mike may need to have regular deep and meaningfuls but some of us dont. It is that simple.

          • greywarshark 10.1.1.2.1
            4 July 2019 at 5:05 pm

            Maybe by coming here those who need deep and meaningfuls find in someone's thinking that touch of the other that is human relationship. And it lessens whatever stress is going on.

            • bwaghorn 10.1.1.2.1.1
              4 July 2019 at 8:36 pm

              Interesting feed back except for mm and wtb . Your just a dicks

              Mike King is an extrovert who probably thrives on lots of interactions.

              Introverts tend to have small circles and are comfortable in their walled up worlds.

          • WeTheBleeple 10.1.1.2.2
            4 July 2019 at 5:31 pm

            What, you asked for help and received it but as you are now 'all good thank you'

            Then sod everyone else.

            How mighty right of you. Takes but does not give.

            Lending the impression you are not a participant in society, but a parasite.

          • marty mars 10.1.1.2.3
            4 July 2019 at 5:42 pm

            yeah sure waggy – fact is farmers kill themselves a fucken lot. They hurt their animals and families as their stresses increase and their options for support diminish and now their semi autos are going. You look after yourself mate. And me and the New Zealander of the Year will carry on trying to support your neighbours.

          • Cinny 10.1.1.2.4
            4 July 2019 at 6:21 pm

            You and Mike may need to have regular deep and meaningfuls but some of us dont. It is that simple.

            You may feel that way, but some of your friends may not.

            If you voice to your friends that you feel that way, they may be too scared to talk to you about their own feelings for a misplaced fear of appearing weak. And so the cycle continues and more people take their own lives.

            If your friends have never had a heart to heart with you than could you be part of the problem?

            Everyone has heart to hearts with me, apparently am easy to talk to and that's just fine as it makes me happy that people feel so comfortable they can open up. The keeper of secrets and supporter of feelings.

            • I feel love 10.1.1.2.4.1
              4 July 2019 at 8:20 pm

              Many men commit suicide in this country, perhaps if they would be helped by having deep & meaningfuls instead of the pathetic real men wear black bullshit that a lot of us men grew up with. I'm glad things have changed since I was a kid in the 70s. Thanks cinny, bleeple, marty and grey for your deeper thinking and dose of reality.

  11. soddenleaf 11
    4 July 2019 at 12:16 pm

    Placing molecules between the surface and the sun is going to raise temperatures. Continuing to do so, by digging yet more up, will go on continuing to speedup the heating. Even if you believe it's not yet enough to worry about, it's inevitably will be. Since historically before that trapped carbon was trapped the climate was very much warmer. But wait its worse. Our star is millions of years older, hydrogen fuel has been converted over time to iron, a hotter star now shines down on us. So digging up all carbon and burning it will create a world much hotter than experienced by the dinosaurs. But hey what's it matter I don't have kids, so jokes on the over populating types, who believe as long as their faith hold gawk won't hurt them, or if he does they have a time share in heaven waiting. Problem for them, since any Gawd ain't so compliant, history says as much. And really look at what passes for thinking amongst Christians, the sin of vanity where a believer thinks he is different and doesn't have to live up to his rugby contract. Or the Christian MP peddling the tried old Christians have a monopoly on morality, that is the sin of dishonesty, since fair dealing means admitting the civic order was not just created by those following Jesus. Worse, history is replete with where Christian dogmatists have crushed and killed nonchristians. e.g Spanish inquisition on Jews and Muslims.

    Stupid exists, thats why we need to expose it often and soon.

  12. The Chairman 12
    4 July 2019 at 1:24 pm

    Pakeha kill just as many children as Maori do, despite Maori being the "face of abuse" in the media, according to a researcher.

    Merchant found physical child abuse was largely related to poverty, poor housing, inter-generational abuse, poor parenting and drugs and alcohol abuse.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/5331753/Pakeha-child-abuse-ignored-researcher?fbclid=IwAR1AnQblCfKzSLIeEdUUT0MJfEM_y8bW5xAxoEpH9udgiJZt9en23OqoptQ

    Meanwhile, Oranga Tamariki is shifting away from child uplifts to intensive interventions, basically having a social worker moving in with the family for up to several years.

    Listen to the clip in the link below for more details.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018702078/new-obligations-for-oranga-tamariki

  13. mauī 13
    4 July 2019 at 1:40 pm

    If you listened to much of the commentariat here, Gabbard doesn't have a snowball's chance in becoming the Democratic candidate… However, she was the most googled candidate after the first debate lol.



    • RedLogix 13.1
      4 July 2019 at 3:28 pm

      Her podcast with Joe Rogan was really worth the time to listen to. Personally if I could have Andrew Yang and Tulsi in one single candidate I'd be in political heaven. And this from someone who still has a big soft spot for Bernie.



  14. Observer Tokoroa 14
    4 July 2019 at 1:45 pm

    Observer Tokoroa 26

    4 July 2019 at 7:33 am

    Going Backwards

    It would have to be said sooner or later, that

    Parents on drugs, Parents on Booze, Parents on Bashing their wives up, Parents who have put themselves in Jail, Parents who have not taught their children anything … The Parents who are merely wastrel Gang Mugs. Parents on Marijuana. Killing each other on the Road.

    The spoon feeding has to stop. No amount of tattoos or money is going to fix anything. We have had a couple of centuries trying out that.

    The sadness is, that the Population of New Zealand is less and less Maori. More and More English, More Asian and South American. European .Populations that do well.

    Do we want Maori to Die off Like Kauri ? The answer to that is, make sure Parents live a decent Life.

    • RedLogix 14.1
      4 July 2019 at 3:24 pm

      The spoon feeding has to stop.

      Many years back I worked for a period for a Maori, originally from Tokoroa, who eventually rose considerably in the senior ranks of our industry. I have to say we clashed horribly as personalities, but I still had immense respect for his personal diligence, fair-mindedness and hard work … and for how he had taken full responsibility for lifting himself out of his very ordinary family origins.

      The same here in Australia, I keep meeting Maori who are doing very well for themselves out from under the burden of low expectations back home.

      There is no question that everywhere around the world, where existing peoples became minorities in the lands they formerly had dominion over, where the scientific and industrial dominance of the West dealt a heavy blow to the confidence and self-image of other populations, where wrong-headed Darwinian ideas about race and eugenics became fashionable … have all been systematically detrimental to the morale and spiritual energy of indigenous peoples everywhere.

      My contention is simple; the individual and the society they live in are mutually interdependent. If you want to argue for personal responsibility, to stop the 'spoon feeding', then we must accept that while some will soar, others will fall and that collectively we have an obligation to catch them before they break.

      This is a conversation we struggle to have, how do we live so that each of us has the opportunity and space to strive and struggle to be the best we each can be; finding freedom within a disciplined collective society, clear in it's values, resolute in it's goals?

      Do we want Maori to Die off Like Kauri ?

      Emphatically no. As with all indigenous peoples they have knowledge and insight into a world a highly materialistic West is blind to. There was one night on a marae in the King Country when I was privileged to see a small glimpse of how these two different views of the world might be forged into something far greater any of us had arrived with.

      • marty mars 14.1.1
        4 July 2019 at 4:06 pm

        lol

      • The Chairman 14.1.2
        4 July 2019 at 4:13 pm

        Well said, Red. yes

      • Gabby 14.1.3
        4 July 2019 at 4:59 pm

        How did you lift yourself out of your very very ordinary family origins rodlog?

        • RedLogix 14.1.3.1
          4 July 2019 at 5:34 pm

          My father was born in a tent to a single mother. When my parents married they had less than 10 quid between them.

          My mother's father was a butcher on the mutton chain at Westfield and was killed crossing the road on his way to work the day before I was born,

          Mum and Dad met at Teachers Training College and both worked multiple jobs most of their lives. I put myself through University with a cleaning job. At one stage I was intimate with at least 1/3rd of all the toilets in downtown Auckland.

          Yet undeniable I had a sheltered middle class upbringing. A season shearing in Otago cured me of a lot of unnecessary innocence, and this has come in handy the rest of my life. Much of the rest of it I put down to a reasonable IQ, endeavouring to justify the salary I was paid and turning up on time.

          Did being 'white' help. Yes and no. In some settings it does, and in others it was utterly irrelevant. It's hardly surprising that the majority ethnic group and culture will organise things locally to best suit themselves. Being a minority in any setting is a inevitably a disadvantage to some extent, but in my experience if you prove reliable and competent it’s readily overcome. A quick look around the modern world categorically shows that being European/Caucasian is absolutely not the sole pre-requisite to being wealthy and successful … however you want to define it. The last big engineering project team I was part of, I was literally the only white male face in a team of eight. The notion of 'white male privilege' may have had some currency a generation ago, but it's a very weak one now.

          • marty mars 14.1.3.1.1
            4 July 2019 at 5:50 pm

            lol

            • RedLogix 14.1.3.1.1.1
              4 July 2019 at 6:16 pm

              Double happy I see. See how I only want the best for you?

              • marty mars …
                4 July 2019 at 6:34 pm

                The notion of 'white male privilege' may have had some currency a generation ago, but it's a very weak one now.

                lol you are such a spinner – you've been defending all and sundry white males for ages – do you think it is a secret lol

                Your little self serving narratives are funny – they show the real you in so many ways and all invisible to you because of your white male privilege – it is very amusing so thanks for that.

                • RedLogix …
                  4 July 2019 at 7:10 pm

                  Logically in any society the dominant ethnic group will organise things to suit themselves, and to others this will appear an unearned privilege. So there is no point in denying it. And some individuals will extend this to be racist and irrationally bigoted about it. It happens everywhere; try living in China if you want a dose of ethnic privilege in your face on a daily basis.

                  At one time I would have largely agree with you; some differences between Pakeha and Maori seem indefensible unless you invoke racism as the sole explanation.

                  But travelling and working in many different countries this past decade or so has rather altered my perspective on this. Besides this NZ is no longer the place it was in the 80's when these questions really hit the public domain. You rightly ask for instance why Maori represent 53% of the prison muster when they are 15% of the population and put this down to white supremacist racism. Yet at the same time Asians are 12% of the population, yet barely 2% of the prison muster.

                  I'm willing to accept that racism is part of this toxic mix that sees so many talented, capable young Maori men waste their lives away in prison. I've seen it up close and it disturbs me as much as it does you. Yet if pure bigotry was the sole explanation at work, if fails to explain those Maori who do escape the trap and achieve often remarkably well.

                  • marty mars …
                    4 July 2019 at 7:31 pm

                    your opinion is quaint but the facts don't back it up.

                    For example health –

                    A watershed Waitangi Tribunal report backs claims the system is racist, finding the Crown has breached the Treaty in failing to give Māori control over a primary health system that works for them.

                    https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018702283/watershed-report-on-maori-health-highlights-racism

                    these are fact not your opinon OR mine FACTS and I could pull up examples across every sector but of course you don't see any racism – that is because you are part of it. Your diminishing of racism and trying to mansplain everything into some middle of the road mush are prime examples of it. You cannot front up – never have and never will I think and that's okay – you are a caricature in some ways for me on this stuff and that is helpful when trying to explain concepts so all good.

                    • RedLogix …
                      4 July 2019 at 8:32 pm

                      Yet like you the WT is long on whining about how unfairly Maori have been treated, yet short on explaining exactly why Maori have different biologies to everyone else, and how their medical treatments should be different.

                      Unless of course they are not, and all that Maori really want is a separate system. Which quite precisely makes Brash's lie come true.

                    • RedLogix …
                      4 July 2019 at 8:36 pm

                      You cannot front up

                      Absolute bullshit. I've been upfront and candid with you all the way; that you cannot see this speaks to your willful inability to hear anything I say.

                      Maybe these guys have the right skin tone:



                    • marty mars …
                      4 July 2019 at 9:48 pm

                      nice bigotry there rl – as usual when backed into a corner of your own making your pigmentation rules your brain, you sad twerp.

                  • McFlock …
                    4 July 2019 at 9:12 pm

                    Yet if pure bigotry was the sole explanation at work, if fails to explain those Maori who do escape the trap and achieve often remarkably well.

                    It explains it perfectly adequately. Those individuals do "remarkably well", but not as often as pakeha do "remarkably well". And not usually as "remarkably well" as pakeha with otherwise similar socioeconomic backgrounds.

                    Institutional and individual biases simply stack the deck of cards in order to produce outcomes that reinforce those biases. We actually see this when machine learning is used to replicate and supplement decision-making that was previously the domain of supposedly rational, impartial and experienced humans. When computers use previous decisions in order to learn what they should be doing, they come out racist. And because we can itemise and set up tests in order to blatantly expose the decision bias without the AI getting embarrassed and changing its behaviour, we know exactly what those biases are.

                    The classic example was a parole application assessment tool that was predisposed to releasing white americans but not african americans who had the same past histories, and we saw it here with the immigration nz algorithm.

                    These biases don't rule every person out or in, it's just that white dudes get more positive credit for being white and male. Which makes equivalent people more likely to get interviews or leniency if they happen to be male and pale. We are perceived as more trustworthy and more competent, even if only subconsciously. And that feeds back into us. For a mind-bender, try reversing the implicit assumptions in society and figure out what we'd get fed back then.

                    As for your bollocks with MM, people don't necessarily need different medicine, but any health system needs to be accessible to the patients in its catchment area. That doesn't mean two systems, it can mean one system that can deliver its services in different ways to suit the people it is supposed to serve.

                    • RedLogix …
                      4 July 2019 at 9:53 pm

                      Institutional and individual biases simply stack the deck of cards in order to produce outcomes that reinforce those biases.

                      That's precisely what I was saying, that the dominant culture will organise matters to best suit itself. It would be incredibly surprising if it didn't. And aligns precisely with the argument I made earlier, that our most ancient, hardwired system of social cooperation is the one that humans share with all the other primates we co-evolved with … genetic affiliation. We will always preference our own family members over others, those of our extended social network, those we share an ethnic culture with, our nationality, our religion, our locality.

                      But note carefully, as we extend these horizons of social co-operation the basis of them changes in a way that is uniquely human, we start to cooperate on the basis of reciprocity, game theory, duty and generosity. These are more complex layers of cooperation built on top of our more primitive genetic impulses.

                      When we measure 'subconcious bias' it is these ineradicable old instincts we are testing for. The testing is deliberately done at a sub-second level in order to suppress any higher order thinking.

                      But any reasonable response to something hardwired and by definition 'not in our concious control' cannot be to demand we eradicate our deep instinctive programming. It makes no more sense than to 'convert' homosexual's because their instinctive sexual orientation is deemed unacceptable.

                      Nor does it make any sense to promote the differences between groups of people, to provoke power dramas between them and insist on engaging on the old victim/oppressor/rescuer game. All of these alarm our ancient scripts, they push people into their default genetic affiliations and trigger the primitive violence responses our history is so replete with.

                      What makes us human is our ability to consciously override our subconscious scripts. For instance we effectively moderate our sexual instincts with complex, high order social norms of mutual respect and modesty. At the same time experience tells us that attempting the same control with suppression, shame and guilt always backfire.

                      Similarly I would argue the most effective way to manage our default instinct to genetic affiliation is to consciously educate towards notions of our common human heritage and our universal equality in the sight of the divine.

                    • McFlock …
                      4 July 2019 at 10:09 pm

                      "Genetic affiliation"? How does that work with institutional racism when genetically there's no such thing as "race"?

                      And on the one hand you're arguing that subconscious impulses can't be changed, and on the other you want to turn athiests into believers of divinity so they can recognise our common humanity. Not to mention that you refer to some pretty odd impulses.

                      Maybe, rather than being the result of "genetic affiliation" or a sex drive we have to overcome in order to preserve "social norms", maybe the vast majority of social ills are learned behaviours. Maybe the "social norms" are hypocritical. Maybe the justice system's inclination to give poor people heavier sentences than rich people for stealing the same amount of money (ha) from the government isn't "deep instinctive programming", maybe it's simply a social norm that can indeed be changed.

          • Dennis Frank 14.1.3.1.2
            4 July 2019 at 5:52 pm

            I appreciate your look back, except you seem not to have answered the question. Nature, nurture, or both? I suspect innate qualities of character powered the overcoming of handicaps (did for me) but the father provides guys with the role model for socialisation (in principle, not denying the inadequacy of many) so where did you get that from?

            Prisoner rehab seems not to measure up to expectation. I'm wondering if lack of suitable role models used is the problem with that.

            • Pat 14.1.3.1.2.1
              4 July 2019 at 5:56 pm

              both

            • RedLogix 14.1.3.1.2.2
              4 July 2019 at 7:42 pm

              I agree with pat, it's definitely both. IQ for instance is a critical component of professional success, but it's more of a constraining factor than a predictor. For instance in order to be a good medical specialist you probably need an IQ north of 130, but this does not mean everyone with that level of IQ could achieve at the level necessary for that profession. There are other multiple dimensions around temperament and nurture that are more predictive.

              But in terms of nurture all the evidence now conclusively points to having both biological parents in a stable home is a very real advantage for the children. That the role of men, and fathers in particular, has been consistently diminished and depracted for some 4 – 5 decades now, has done no-one any favours whatsoever.

              • Dennis Frank …
                4 July 2019 at 7:49 pm

                So did you have a suitable male role model to instill the parental father within? Perhaps you've never thought about that. I often reflect on the many & various male role models I learnt from (most from books rather than real life) which probably explains the many sides to the character I eventually developed. From my dad I learnt what a father ought not to be like. devil

                • RedLogix …
                  4 July 2019 at 8:17 pm

                  In that respect I count myself as very fortunate to have a decent father to whom I very grateful for his efforts. He's not perfect and like you there are aspects of who he is that I've been careful not to replicate; but then again I think it's a mistake to think of your parents as 'role models'.

                  My view is that they are there to act as boundary setters and creators of expectation. It's their role to ensure you are acceptably socialised and to then encourage you to deal with life good and bad.

                  And in my adolescence I was again fortunate to have the father of a very close friend around a lot. He was a lot more political than my own father and was very open to educating me about the world.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    4 July 2019 at 8:36 pm

                    Thanks for the info, fortunate indeed. You may not be familiar with the Jungian theory of archetypes, but the idea is that the parents embed in the subconscious during childhood, and thus activate the parental archetype provided by nature (which may or may not then result in them functioning as role models).

  15. Ad 15
    4 July 2019 at 2:18 pm

    Amazing to see this 15 year old take out seasoned tennis veterans at Wimbledon.



    • Drowsy M. Kram 16.1
      4 July 2019 at 3:00 pm

      “The National Party’s climate change spokesperson isn’t sure what that would achieve.”

      “National’s Todd Muller said on Wednesday a declaration is currently just a “feel good statement” with no action behind it.” – Muller should know.

      Thoughts?

      • Gabby 16.1.1
        4 July 2019 at 5:00 pm

        Todd Munter never met an idea he didn't misunderstand.

      • Dennis Frank 16.1.2
        4 July 2019 at 8:40 pm

        Well, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Muller had thoughts. If so, no doubt he kept them to himself prudently, due to the omnipresent danger that colleagues would view such tendencies as subversive.

    • The Al1en 16.2
      4 July 2019 at 3:11 pm

      Being 'more left than most', you'll strongly agree the government should declare a climate emergency, yes?

      • The Chairman 16.2.1
        4 July 2019 at 4:04 pm

        Of course I do, The Al1en.

        Although, support in the poll linked isn't looking too good.

        • The Al1en 16.2.1.1
          4 July 2019 at 4:07 pm

          So no more arguing against the 'look to the PM' or the 'the polls aren't good enough', or 'damage being done to the PM's popularity' from you, then. Good to know.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 16.2.1.2
          4 July 2019 at 4:18 pm

          Poll-driven policies are such fraught affairs for pollies – witness Key's flag 'push'.

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/113667687/sir-john-key-says-hed-still-change-the-nz-flag

          Key wanted to be Prime Minister when he was 11 years old ["I was aways fascinated by the role."] – too bad for NZ that it took him 43 years to grow out of it.

          Now if only the Chairman of ANZ Bank New Zealand could recall his stance on the 1981 Springbok tour – after all, a good memory would be a prerequisite for being The Chairman, surely?

        • Swizzle 16.2.1.3
          4 July 2019 at 5:07 pm

          Well it's looking better than the Poll earlier this week that asked if Arden is doing a good job/should stay on as PM. That had the nays at about 95% before vanishing "poof" in to the ether, to be replaced by a "page not found" placeholder.

          Expect to see any real polls agin' Jacinda to disappear the same way…

          • Red Blooded One 16.2.1.3.1
            4 July 2019 at 6:20 pm

            Which Poll was this Swizzle? Who organized the Poll? Where was it published? If it isn't a legitimate Poll on a credible Medium I can only assume it is your credibility going "poof"

          • Fireblade 16.2.1.3.2
            4 July 2019 at 6:48 pm

            AM Show Newshub polls aren't scientific, they are for entertainment purposes. People can vote more than once, if the smartphone or computer cache is cleared. You would have to be an idiot to take them seriously.

            Someone in Chris Bishop's office voted 2000 times in one poll. 😁

            • Peter 16.2.1.3.2.1
              4 July 2019 at 8:59 pm

              "Someone in Chris Bishop's office voted 2000 times in one poll"?

              That's the sort of determination, stamina and motive needed to do serious work. Like checking the Treasury website for Budget details.

        • Pat 16.2.1.4
          4 July 2019 at 6:30 pm

          if you know anything about statistics you would understand those clickbait polls are absolutely worthless

  17. Gosman 17
    4 July 2019 at 3:34 pm

    For all those Leftists here who have been bigging up Jeremy Corbyn perhaps you can try and explain why they have slipped to fourth place in the polls.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/labour-slips-to-fourth-place-in-opinion-poll-as-pressure-builds-on-jeremy-corbyn-over-brexit-stance-a4181991.html

  18. Jum 18
    4 July 2019 at 3:57 pm

    Just to rejig the memory on nats:

    'Heck of a job Brownlee

    WrittenBy: EDDIE – Date published:1:22 am, April 30th, 2011

    The government has spent $1 million so far on 350 campervans for Christchurch. One person stayed in them. For that money, better to put them up at Premier House and commute them by Iroquois. There is a massive housing need in Christchurch – apparently thousands have registered interest in temporary houses – but the campervans were so shitty and expensive people preferred overcrowded or damaged houses, or just left town.

    Meanwhile, actual temporary houses will start going up some time next month and hopefully be finished some time in winter. The Japanese will have 30,000 temporary houses finished in a month’s time. we’ll be lucky to have one.

    Can anyone tell me why we made a guy who can’t even organise some temporary houses in 3 months our dictator?'

  19. The Chairman 19
    4 July 2019 at 3:58 pm

    Is Megan Woods truly, as one commentator insists, “the first genuine left-wing housing minister in ages”?

    https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/100466/if-megan-woods-really-left-wing-housing-minister-then-pushing-left-wing-shift-housing

  20. Eco Maori 20
    5 July 2019 at 8:28 am

    Kia ora The Am Show.

    A 6.4 Earthquake in Southern California America let hope there is not to much damage.

    Amanda I see the guys point on The big game of rugby but loyalty is cool .

    It's wet wet wet we're I'ma at the minute.

    I say that the sale of West coast milk company to Yealy a Chinese company is good deal for the farmers the West coast needs this.

    I think it's not very wise the council talking about banning people from parking on the road side burms especially with the housing shortage and over crowding

    With the cancer issue there is only so much one can do ma te wa in good time our government will sort it out the big picture with cancer drugs is the big companies charge way to much for there product putting huge profits before humanity and that's WRONG in Eco Maori book

    Ka kite and

  21. Eco Maori 21
    5 July 2019 at 6:43 pm

    Kia ora my viewing device are down.

    I have been in Hawskbay for a few days on a farm one thing I noticed was the lack of native birds in the place were I'm staying . I say that Hawskbay could do with it own bird sanctuary also there is not many native trees all the farmers need to plant flax and other native fauna as Aotearoa native birds cannot feed on pine trees or Willow trees or popular we need to plant Manuka trees in the slip prone places not Willow or popular ka kite ano

  22. Eco Maori 22
    6 July 2019 at 7:29 am

    Stuff

  24. Eco Maori 24
    7 July 2019 at 9:47 am

    Kia ora The Hui.

    I think not enough reshearch is done in Maori and Pacific health.

    I have said you have to have aoha for the people you treat to treat correctly in the health if a doctor love there patient they will do all they can to find a better out come for the patient .

    I also say we need Maori to be there in the lead in all aspects of government service.

    Gout is a genetic problem Eco Maori Had gout . The system is changing for the better of Maori.

    I know European doctor don't treat Maori as good as a Maori doctor would.

    Ka kite and

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