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Open mike 03/07/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, July 3rd, 2019 - 113 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

113 comments on “Open mike 03/07/2019 ”

  1. Sanctuary 1

    Jeez, has John Tamihere been on the morning sauce? On RNZ right now he is just a mess of incoherent rambling, weird denunciations, barely concealed resentment, ridiculous hyperbole and moronic dissembling.

  2. Xanthe 2

    So thats just normal for tamihere

  3. Xanthe 3

    Strangly the standard has returned to full functionality on my tablet

    Has there been a reversion?

  4. Dennis Frank 4

    Tony Burton provides an insight into the govt/media/politics nexus based on his personal experience in the public service. He sent an email & it caused controversy when obtained via OIA & used out of context. https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/01-07-2019/crocodile-in-the-river-how-public-servants-avoid-being-eaten-by-the-oia/

    "The email itself was one in a chain between mid and lower ranking officials in Treasury and the Department of Labour (DoL) about the annual minimum wage report to Ministers. By that time the report had become a summary of suggestions from a list of organisations for a new minimum wage level, with well-known views and a cut-and-and-paste-from-last-year summary of arguments offered. DoL did an estimate of the potential unemployment impact for each level using a model so opaque that the estimates were best described as ‘some’, ‘some more’, ‘even more’, etc. The whole exercise was perfunctory."

    "As a Treasury adviser on labour market and welfare issues I was asked to see if DoL could be encouraged to improve the report. I thought, naively as it turned out, that if I discussed evidence in bite-sized chunks some of it might sneak into the report. This was the content of my email."

    "The DoL officials ignored my email and the subsequent meeting when writing their report. Described this way I imagine the eyes of most readers glazing over. “Conversation on academic evidence between unimportant people makes no difference” is not an attention grabber. But when released through the OIA, in the midst of an election campaign, the issue turned into “Mr Key ‘sat on’ the advice for 18 months and ‘tried to fool people’ by using only a later Labour Department review to back his argument”. This version became one of the issues in a television debate between the party leaders. A cursory glance at the emails would have made clear they were not sent to ministers. They did not include any reference to a Treasury report to ministers because there was no report."

    "Treasury’s response, other than the occasional stern look directed at me from Treasury old timers, was a sentence in the ‘Briefing to the Incoming Minister’ to counter any impression it had supported minimum wage rises. But that was Treasury, and the Minister of Finance was Bill English, who actively encouraged Treasury to provide challenges based on evidence. If I had still been working for the Ministry of Social Development of the mid 2000s, where more than 50 communications staff were employed to control debate about the ministry, I might have lost my job."

    "Public servants experience the OIA the way savannah animals experience crocodiles lurking under the surface of a river. The animals have to go to the river but do so aware that random attacks are a moment of inattention away. If this metaphor seems over the top, I invite the reader to look over the last few weeks of everything they wrote, typed or texted. Imagine someone had a legal right to publish any three consecutive words, without context or explanation, and with the potential that you might lose your job. Would that make you a little more guarded about what you wrote? Within the public service, versions of this thought experiment are called the “Dom Post test”. Unsurprisingly public servants take steps to avoid the crocodile. The OIA is meant to include verbal exchanges, but in practice that is hard to enforce. The result is the habit of minimising the written record if there is a risk of failing the Dom Post test. This habit is so endemic it is applied semi-consciously and only noticeable when someone, usually a junior official who has not been fully acculturated, needs to be reminded to “take the discussion off-line”."

    "Of course there are many occasions when it is common sense to have a quick chat rather than to draft documents and set up meetings. (And anyone who has wasted time in pointless bureaucratic meetings will wish for more of this common sense.) However, extending this to replacing written comments is not in the spirit of the OIA."

    "In as much as the OIA puts pressure on public servants to only write what they are personally prepared to defend in the full glare of the public they serve, it’s a good thing. The problem is that’s not the reality of how it is experienced, which means people do not just respond by improving what they write but by trying to avoid the lurking crocodile."

    Thanks for the case study, Tony. Illuminating the coercive effects of the law on public servants is indeed a public service. Well done. [Tony Burton is a former deputy chief economic adviser at Treasury.]

  5. Sanctuary 5

    Did anyone else hear Paul Goldsmith on the radio this morning?

    My first thought was the 1990s called and wanted their neoliberal technocrat back.

    What an utterly colourless Don Brash mini-me.

    No wonder he got made finance spokesman, no threat to Simon there.

    • cleangreen 5.1

      Yes I heard slimy little Paul Goldsmith lying again on RNZ saying 'Robots are good for our economy,' – but I wondered about us?????

      Goldsmiths world is one without us humans it appears.

      I turned radio NZ off afterthat rubbish.

      • AB 5.1.1

        Listening to Paul Goldsmith, my immediate impression was that robots had made much deeper inroads into the workplace than I had realised. The OS appeared to be somewhat dated though.

        Though actually, robots could be good for the economy. It depends on who owns the technology and how they choose to use it. So yeah – the chances of it actually turning out well for most people are pretty minimal.

      • Peter 5.1.2

        I've watched him asking questions in Parliament over a period and thought, "This guy's actually written books?!"

    • Rapunzel 5.2

      I did, your post has reassured me that I wasn't just imagining how hopeless he was with the usual blah, blah and jargon that is all that eminates from the National Party and is very visible. It was like Kermit the Frog without the hope and vision, I'm not surprised he has remained fairly invisible till now.

    • Halfcrown 5.3

      Yes, I heard and saw him on the AM Show arrogant prat, But then I thought he was hilarious and certainly made my day when he came out with what I would think this year’s best joke when he made the statement that “ The National Party was the natural home for Talent”

  6. Rosemary McDonald 6

    'Gifted' offspring of privilege have input into design of special school….

    ….plans emerge for ivy- covered aviary channeling the Flintstones.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/113918033/auckland-couple-reveal-10m-building-plans-for-boutique-age-school

  7. Morrissey 7

    "Nikki Kaye's a feminist, Cameron Slater's a journalist, and John Key's son's a DJ!"

    Almost as ludicrous a sight as poor Ben Shapiro trying to argue with intelligent people is the embarrassing spectacle of the untalented sons of "celebrities" posing as DJs. The poster child for this particular form of idiocy is the notorious Chet Haze, son of Tom Hanks. Down here, there was Maximus Key, son of John. We'll spare you the gruesome task of having to actually watch the young Key in action; this critique of him and his father's government is far more entertaining…

    Aficionadoes of "wretchedness o'ercharged" may like to investigate Tom Hanks's rapper son….

    • Chris T 7.1

      That first video is just embarrassing

      I am guessing the one person who seems to be laughing is the blokes sister or mother?

      • Professor Longhair 7.1.1

        In the first clip, the whole of the audience is laughing with the comedian/rapper called Tourettes, and laughing at John Key's obnoxious and untalented son. In the second clip, the people laughing at Tom Hanks's obnoxious and untalented son are Howard Stern and his long-standing producer, Robin Quivers.

        • Naki man 7.1.1.1

          The prof cough's up another fur ball.

          The only obnoxious and untalented person is that fuckwit Tourettes and his paid friend with the forced laugh, comedian/rapper, only in his twisted bitter little mind.

          • Professor Longhair 7.1.1.1.1

            The prof cough’s [sic] up another fur ball… [snip angry ranting]

            Yeah right. John Key's no-hoper son is a DJ. Goddit.

  8. Andre 8

    Strange times. Strange bedfellows.

    George Soros and Charles Koch get together to launch an anti-interventionist think-tank. Nothing else seems to have broken the DC enthusiasm for wading into messy foreign entanglements the US really has no business being in, so hey, worth a shot.

    https://www.vox.com/2019/7/1/20677441/soros-koch-end-interventionist-wars-military

    • Morrissey 8.1

      Good on them. For once, one of the Koch brothers is doing something worthy.

  9. cleangreen 9

    As time goes by under this new government who is attempting to balance the books while fixing our crumbling infrustructure, watching our roads/rail/ city sewer services and all other essential services are failing as we speak.

    Winston Peters spoke to the 230 folks who turned up to his last 'pep-talk' meeting prior to the last election and I was there it was a good talk he was right on the button there.

    Winston touched on this issue of national spending nothing on our crumbling infrustructure during the last national Government's nine long years who always used the term "deferred maintainence" to justify cutting costs all over NZ to make their books look fine for the election.

    Now we witness what national set the next Government up for; – and boy is showing us now with a sewer pipe collapsing into the taupo lake today, and the freight train de-railed in Wairarapa,

    All happend in just one day.

    Government needs to heed Winstons words he spoke that Gisborne night about our crumbling infrustructure as he said "we need to follow what Michael Joseph Savage did in 1935 to get NZ infrustructure back into operation after the 1931 depression by enacting the "Reserve Bank Act" and print the funds needed for restoring all NZ's essential services."

    Otherwise we as a country NZ will fail, as another examle of what happend to Greece.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 9.1

      Good comment.

      Many in the last National 'government' were all about achieving their brighter future though self service. Shudder to think what would be privatised by now if that lot were still in charge – Coleman was certainly lining up the health sector, and is now lining his pockets as CEO of Acurity Health Group, a leading provider of private hospital services.

  10. Morrissey 10

    If you read the Grauniad uncritically, you are no better than a Fox News true believer.

  11. greywarshark 11

    Latest report on DHBs from 2.7.2019. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/393457/dhbs-report-shows-funding-population-woes-senior-doctors-union-head

    If DHBs run by generic accountants can't make ends meet then better informed managers with hospital backgrounds need to be employed. They seem to be in a similar position to the old railways, government didn't want to do its job running them, and sold off bits to supposed more effective private interests. Both sides tried to do the job on the cheap, flushing out the supposed fat on a starvation budget.

    Now the government is told it needs to provide more money for health. Much of it should be garnered from the comfortably-off-to-rich from more tax not less (as in Australia just announced!) and from wealth-offering immigrants adding to our bulk of population to be serviced, and the fees from poor ones spending their life savings to come here. Government needs to listen or they won't be able to congratualte themselves for being better than weasely National and we won't be able to flaunt ourselves as a top country overseas, that is if it can't be made to care about the expected services of a so-called developed country.

    One man who is both medically knowledgable and with managerial skills said this after a survey into conditions in Hawke's Bay (Te-Mata-a-Maui). This is a report from Dr Kevin Snee from December 2014 when he was Chief Executive of Hawke's Bay DHB. (He has now gone to troubled Waikato DHB.)

    https://www.baybuzz.co.nz/2014/12/08/health-inequity/

    The report brought up issues for Maori health. Presumably as times have got harder for them the smoking is increasingly a problem, and alcohol also plays its well-known destructive role. It makes this comment:

    …• It is startling that three out of four Maori will be dead before their 75th birthday, compared to one in three European. And possibly even worse, one in four Maori will die before their 50th birthday compared to one in twenty European.

    I find these statistics shocking and unacceptable.

    Much of the work we do in health is focused on reducing inequity, trying to reduce the gap so everyone has the same opportunities for health. It’s part of our vision for the next five years through our Transform and Sustain programme. The 11 key areas of this programme all contain elements to make sure equity is addressed, when we determine how we spend our money.

    Recognising and identifying the issues through this report will help us work to reduce the gap, but the health system alone cannot solve inequity….

  12. PredictiveAnalysis 12

    Is John Key not aware of the Westminster convention that former PM's stay out of politics ?

    The sight of the chair of the largest bank in Australasia making public comment on the affairs of a country without the checks and balances of an upper house should make all true democrats pause.

    John may be cramping Simon's style

    • veutoviper 12.1

      i have no problem if Key may be "cramping Simon's style", unless it makes Simon look less of an idiot. LOL.

      I certainly agree with the rest of your comment, but this is not new for Key. During his time in Parliament he never really recognised, or rather adhered to, Westminister convention etc. or the reasons to keep a distance between his and others' roles as a representative of the people as opposed to their connection to and representation of the business sector, including the finance sector.

      Mind you,, Key is nowhere in the league of Trump and his favourite daughter, Ivanka and their performance at the G20 meeting in Japan a few days ago!

      https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/01/donald-trump-ivanka-g20-north-korea-nepotism

      https://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/07/02/the-point-ivanka-trump-g20-diplomat-chris-cillizza-pkg.cnn

      Plenty more choices if the above are frowned on media sources to some – just google “Ivanka Trump G20” .

      [As an aside, loving the “Where is Wally/Ivanka?” pictures used on the Daily Review posts the last few nights – is that your work, mickysavage? LOL.]

  13. Sabine 13

    nothing to worry, this is all normal, yeah, right you heard me….normal!!!

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/14-killed-in-fire-on-russian-navy-submersible/2019/07/02/551bc79c-9cd0-11e9-83e3-45fded8e8d2e_story.html?utm_term=.6ac8062f1fdf

    fire on a russian nuclear submarine boat ' aka a science vessel' kills fourteen but we are assured by the russians that there are no nuclear leaks. No siree, non what so ever……

    “Fourteen submariners have died of poisoning by fumes from the fire,” Shoigu told Putin during a televised meeting. “The fire was extinguished thanks to the crew’s resolute action.”

    Putin ordered Shoigu to fly to the Arctic port of Severomorsk, the main base for Russia’s Northern Fleet where the vessel was brought, to oversee the investigation and report back to him personally.

    “It’s a huge loss for the navy,” Putin said. “I offer my sincere condolences to the families of the victims.”

    He added that the vessel had a special mission and an elite crew.

    https://twitter.com/ErgezerO/status/1146109022225031168?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1146109022225031168&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailykos.com%2Fstory%2F2019%2F7%2F2%2F1868625%2F-The-Arctic-will-not-survive-Russia-s-second-wave-of-industrialization-nuclear-submarine-in-flames

  14. Adrian Thornton 14

    Here is a good post debate piece from FAIR looking at the US MSM freaking out over the Bernie induced sharp pivot to the Left by 80% of the Democratic runners..it warms my heart.

    Warning to Progressive Dems: You’re Leaving Corporate Media’s Comfort Zone

    https://fair.org/home/warning-to-progressive-dems-youre-leaving-corporate-medias-comfort-zone/?awt_l=CnT3e&awt_m=gKmvrE3mJIR._TQ

    • Morrissey 14.1

      This clip nicely covers some of the smears against Sanders, Jill Stein, and Jeremy Corbyn….

      • AB 14.1.1

        Those of us still around in 20 years will look back at the Sanders candidacy as a lost opportunity of historic proportions. Maybe not so much 'lost' as 'denied' – because he won't be allowed to win if it looks like he actually might. All the problems he talked about will be so much worse by then.

  15. marty mars 15

    So good.

    An $11 million, fully immersive dark sky experience is now open in Tekapo combining Māori astronomy and science.

    Dark Sky Project, formerly Earth and Sky, opened the doors to its new 1140sqm building on the Tekapo lakefront on Monday and is a joint venture between Ngāi Tahu Tourism and co-founders Graeme Murray and Hide Ozawa.

    Mana whenua from Arowhenua, Waihao and Moeraki rūnanga blessed the building named Rehua on Monday while Governor-General of New Zealand, Dame Patsy Reddy, opened the new experience.

    The centre will tell the stories of local iwi and runanga's relationship with the night sky, and how it has developed.

    It is located at the heart of the Aoraki/Mt Cook Mackenzie International Dark Sky Reserve – the largest dark sky reserve in the world and the only one of its kind in the Southern Hemisphere.

    Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu Kaiwhakahaere Lisa Tumahai said the $3m in government funding provided by the Tourism Growth Partnership fund in 2016 was the kick-start the $11 million development needed.

    "It will further enhance the Ngāi Tahu contribution to regional development and job creation – mō tātou, ā, mō ka uri ā muri ake nei. I truly commend mana whenua and all involved in the creation of an authentic experience that will see our ancestors' stories told to the world."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/destinations/nz/113896886/new-star-attraction-opens-in-tekapo-combining-mori-astronomy-and-science

    As an aside I got the telescope out the other night and showed my son Jupiter and some of his moons – he said it was cool and that made me feel pretty good. Saturn also looked amazing with the rings and stuff.

    Can't wait to head south to this observatory.

    • Sacha 15.1

      Sounds amazing.

    • The Al1en 15.2

      The sand flies down Tekapo way will also love it

    • Pingau 15.3

      The observatory at Mt John is awesome, as is Tekapo and the Dark Sky Park. I have been twice and it is one of the best things I have experienced in my life – the night sky is something most of us in the "first world" have lost. I'll be visiting this new centre for sure.

  16. Rosemary McDonald 16

    Another ACC Disputes Resolution service launched with former critic now Director of Contracted Provider of said disputes resolution service.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/393531/new-acc-mediation-service-aims-to-settle-disputes-faster

    Great to see the contracting system still working despite… Previous research had said there should be a commissioner and it should be separate from ACC, he said, but the corporation and the government decided to go with a contractor relationship.

    In the meantime, those with impairments who are not under ACC await word from the Current Mob as to the plan to make Funded Family Care Fairer.

    Back in September there was a Beehive Release…https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/making-funded-family-care-fairer… which promised …

    Cabinet has agreed to consider changes to Funded Family Care, with options and timeframes for changes to be presented to Cabinet later this year.

    “The Government intends to repeal Part 4A of the Act that was introduced by the previous National Government,” Minister of Health Dr David Clark says.

    “There have been consistent calls for Part 4A to be repealed because it is discriminatory. In particular, Part 4A has been inconsistent with human rights legislation because it denies families the right to complain about breaches of their human rights relating to family care policies,” Acting Associate Health Minister James Shaw says.

    “The previous Government’s Funded Family Care policy has been a nightmare for the families involved. Today’s announcement is the first step towards a kinder and fairer agreement with carers.

    “Over the next couple of months the Government will run targeted consultation with affected families and stakeholders on the key issues within Funded Family Care. Consultation will cover issues of eligibility, pay rates for carers, the employment relationship, and the type of care covered,” says James Shaw.

    Well, we've done the Targeted Engagement thing….https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/publications/targeted_engagement_on_funded_family_care_and_paid_family_care_20_november_2018.pdf

    …and we've read the many, many articles in the media about this topic…https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/lifestyle/2019/05/the-billions-of-dollars-worth-of-work-carers-do-revealed-in-new-report.html

    Yet, nothing. Not a sausage, nary a crumb.

    Apart from the shitty little back down on a much begged for more flexible respite care funding system….https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/392858/service-for-choosing-respite-care-shelved-after-ministry-wouldn-t-stump-up-10m

    I was going to write, yet again, to The Powers That Be and respectfully ask what stage they're at keeping their promises of last September…

    But I've got no respect left for them.

    SSDD.

    • Sacha 16.1

      but the corporation and the government decided to go with a contractor relationship.

      Would be interesting to see the basis for that decision OIAed.

    • Kay 16.2

      Dr. David Clark is a complete and utter waste of space.

      • Rosemary McDonald 16.2.1

        The puckish part of me was going to send him a pair of boxing gloves and a spine. Anyone taking on the task of undoing over two decades of sociopathic mismanagement of Health in general and disability in particular will need both. However its not much point if the heart's not in it, and the government is not committed.

        It struck me right from the beginning of his tenure that he had already acquired the possum in the headlights look displayed by both Ryall and Coleman. Almost as if they'd had a quick shufti inside the inner sanctum of the Ministry of Health executive and decided it was a beast best left to its own devices.

        • Sacha 16.2.1.1

          Coleman, certainly. Smug waste of space. However Ryall was far from afeared, to his cost.

  17. Sabine 17

    water shortage? drought?

    not here, surely not!

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12245978

    Auckland officials want to fast-track moves to take more water from the Waikato River, to stave off the threat of a regional water shortage.

    Residents are being urged to take shorter showers as reservoir levels drop after unseasonably warm conditions and six months of below-average rainfall.

    Despite the belated arrival of winter rain, total storage is sitting at almost 60 per cent of capacity. The historic average for June is 84 per cent.

  18. joe90 19

    Commandeering the commons to run an event paid for by the public to raise funds for the ruling party.

    Corrupt AF.

  19. The Chairman 20

    Seeing as Tracey Martin and Jacinda haven't viewed the recent uplift video, perhaps they can find the time to read this harrowing account of another family's treatment by Oranga Tamariki

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/@taken-by-the-state/2019/06/27/655406/dealing-with-the-agency-from-hell

    • How many hours of the day do you believe ministers and the Prime Minister should devote to perusing fine details of disputes between individuals and government departments, and how do you propose prioritising which disputes should be reviewed? It could hit 24 hours a day without breaking a sweat, so some rationing system would be essential, not to mention some means of measuring the opportunity cost to the country of their spending their time on that.

      • The Chairman 20.1.1

        How many hours of the day they should devote to perusing fine details of disputes between individuals and government departments is up to them. Nevertheless, the more informed a misister is the more effective they are likely to be.

        However, most would expect them to at least be aware (and to have read/seen) the top ones that make the news, especially when it's to do with matters relating to their own ministerial portfolio.

        • McFlock 20.1.1.1

          Actually, no on both counts. Or at least not necessarily.

          An abundance of operational information can masquerade as knowledge of strategic issues. The issue here isn't how a particular baby was taken, rather the issue is the overrespresentation of Māori children being taken and the equity, appropriatness, and justice questions this raises. You don't need to see the video to understand this.

          Unless the issue is the behaviour of the people taking that specific baby (e.g. the US border concentration camps), the video might be emotive but it adds little to deciding how the system should be improved.

          • The Chairman 20.1.1.1.1

            I didn't state necessarily. I said the more effective they are likely to be.

            An abundance of operational information is part of being informed.

            The issue here is how a particular baby was taken and how systemic that process is. Along with the over representation of Māori children being taken, the equity, appropriateness, and justice questions this raises.

            Viewing the video uplift first hand is a little more insightful than merely reading about it. And in this case, the behaviour of the people taking that specific baby was/is of issue.

            • McFlock 20.1.1.1.1.1

              Yeah your weasel words of concern are always vague, but the fact remains that an abundance of operational information often or even usually gets in the way of strategic decision making.

              If the issue is how the baby was taken, that's an operational matter that the minister should leave to the employment personnel. But the issue is one of systemic bias, which is a strategic matter, so what specifically does the video add to aid decision-making for that issue?

              • The Chairman

                Yeah your weasel words of concern are always vague…

                Resorting to taking potshots so soon. You really try to appeal to the mugs on here, don't you.

                An abundance of operational information is part of the knowledge one requires to make strategic decisions. At the end of the day, the two are often interrelated. Alignment of strategic priorities and integration of operations etc. But you can continue to dance on the head of that pin if you like.

                One of the issues is how the baby was taken. Moreover, the harrowing behaviour of Oranga Tamariki staff has been reported as being systemic. Therefore, while it's an operational matter it is one the minister ultimately oversees and at the end of the day is accountable for. The buck stops at the top.

                The video could be used as an example in future staff training of what not to do.

              • McFlock

                Sorry, looks like you missed the last bit:

                what specifically does the video add to aid decision-making for that issue?

                How would it help the minister to watch the video?

                Material for training courses doesn't cut it. If the behaviour is "harrowing" that requires training, that's an operational/HR matter involving a bad job that's being done badly. The bad job needn't be done at all but the system requires it, so that's a systemic issue for the minister and how the job is done is irrelevant because the role of the minister is to stop it being done in the first place.

                • The Chairman

                  How would it help the minister to watch the video?

                  First off, they (the PM and the Minister) would have avoided the outrage not viewing it has caused.

                  Secondly, just as the bias is systemic so are the operational flaws. thus strategic goals have to integrate with operational strategy to formulate on the ground. The video is a good example of this failure, thus can be learned from. Helping the Minister to come up with solutions going forward.

                  How the job is done is far from irrelevant. Outcomes largely rely on how the job is being done. And when the job is being done poorly and it's systemic, the oversight extends to the Minister in charge.

                  As for the Minister being able to completely stop it, she doesn't have the capacity in her role alone. Lifting benefits would go a long way in reducing the frictions that lead to family violence, child abuse etc.

                  • The Al1en

                    Again, there is no outrage because the pm didn't watch a video. You're just pretending there is to suit your nat agenda narrative.

                    Money isn't the be all and end all to any solution for bad parenting, violent abuse of children or neglect. Millionaires can be shit parents, too, though they might be able to afford better lawyers. An extra $50 a week to a selfish parent doesn't benefit a child at all, not in the sense of protecting them from selfish parents that is.

                    Once again you've taken a swing and a miss. Next nat talking point, please.

                    • The Chairman

                      Lifting benefits going a long way in reducing the frictions that lead to family violence, child abuse etc, is a National Party talking point?

                      How did parents become so selfish in your opinion?

                      Are you not aware of the frictions being poor can create in the family environment and how ugly that can quickly become? Are you that out of touch?

                      As for the outrage out there, it has been reported that some are comparing this to the foreshore and seabed fallout.

                    • The Al1en

                      Still no outrage, not at the pm any way. The system, perhaps, but that's relative.. Each case on it's merits and all that.

                      Of course I'm aware of friction from having no money, I'm fucking poor after all, so out of touch I certainly am not, but whatever the deal, no matter how much cash I haven't had, I've always fed my babies and never once taken out my anger and frustration upon them. Main reason is personal pride, to look after ones younglings, secondary is not to be my old man and screw it up. I certainly don't blame the pm or her ministers like you do.

                      When I knew I couldn't afford to do it all, I stopped smoking, drinking, eating fast food, just like most people do in the same situation. Extra money for me would have eased financial pressures, but made no difference to the emotional and physical well being of my spawn. They were, and are, already well sorted.

                      Thanks for your concern 🙄

                    • The Chairman

                      Of course I'm aware of friction from having no money,

                      Then you would know how this friction can quickly turn ugly in some family environments, leading to mental stress and causing some to snap too easily. Albeit, it hasn't happen to adult you, but perhaps (by the sound of it) you may have been victim to it as a lad. Perhaps helping you from going down that same path as a dad.

                      Poverty has many adverse effects and in many ways is a driver of many of our social ills.

                    • The Al1en

                      Fuck off, you patronising twat.

                      PS, Mods, I'll take the ban, ta.

                  • McFlock

                    Firstly, I had a quick look to stuff for any expression of "outrage" that Ardern and Martin haven't watched the video. Seems to have disappeared from their political section already (although the issue of "uplifts" has not). There is an article posted on Newsroom on Tuesday, onenews doesn't seem to rate the waves of outrage as newsworthy, RNZ News seems to have missed the barricades in the streets that the hopi polloi have raised because the PM and minister didn't watch the video, so really the main source of "outrage" seems to be you. Even Newsroom only said "shocked". But I'm sure people will take to the streets tomorrow unless the PM watches the video. /sarc

                    Secondly, "operational flaws" operating a policy that itself needs drastic changes are not really a priority. You can't have a bad attitude while taking newborns if you're not taking newborns in the first place.

                    Should the people assessing benefit rates also watch the video? Or need it only be an intructional tool for administrators of policy, as well as the ministers who determine the policy, but not the administrators of policy determination? Can you answer that, or would that be one for the people who determine the administration of the determination of policy, and their administrators?

                    • The Chairman

                      Secondly, "operational flaws" operating a policy that itself needs drastic changes are not really a priority.

                      In this case the operational flaws are so embedded and systemic they can't be left to be overlooked as they are a large part of the problem that will negatively impact on any new policy change.

                      As for the outrage out there, it was reported on. I've already posted a link to it. But here it is again.

                      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/07/midwives-involved-in-attempted-hawke-s-bay-baby-uplift-slam-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-for-not-watching-video.html

                      Moreover, there is "a tide of unrest in Maoridom" over the large number of child uplifts and Jacinda not viewing the clip was seen by many as a slap in the face.

                    • McFlock

                      Again, operational flaws in a flawed policy can be eliminated by eliminating the flawed policy.

                      Also, ain't it interesting how newsroom are the only outlet noticing the tide? And even that was a couple of days ago?

                      Oh, and you, of course. But you're very adept at spotting tides of outrage against this government. Especially tides that are undetected by anyone else.

                    • …so really the main source of "outrage" seems to be you.

                      To be fair, DPF has also posted about it – no doubt he's as "concerned" as The Chairman is about Ardern's terrible failure to watch a video.

        • Anne 20.1.1.2

          most would expect them to at least be aware (and to have read/seen) the top ones that make the news….

          How do you know they were not already aware of these circumstances TC?

          How do you know they had not already seen… and been told of similar stories?

          In fact, according to Jacinda Ardern she has recently seen and heard about similar stories and I'm sure Tracey Martin will have too. So they didn't need to spend precious time perusing another one which is no doubt the reason why they chose to so promptly set up an inquiry to find out what is going on.

          Your constant tendency to jump on the critical band-wagon before all the facts are at your disposal belies your claim you are to the left of centre. I’ll go further and say you are a right wing troll who comes here to disrupt the flow of rational dialogue.

          Having said that you're not the only one.

          • The Chairman 20.1.1.2.1

            Hi Anne

            How do you know they were not already aware of these circumstances TC?

            I didn't claim they were unaware of the circumstances in this instance, Anne. I pointed out how they are being publicly slammed for not viewing the video.

            Moreover, I didn't claim they had not already seen and have been told of similar stories.

            And on that point, Jacinda got an easy ride on the Nation the other day. She should have been asked what are these other similar events she has claimed to have seen? Moreover, if they have known for so long as Jacinda has claimed (on the Nation) why haven't they acted with more pace?

            Spending the short time to view the clip would have given them a good insight into the staff behaviour and operational flaws taking place under their watch.

            Moreover, have you not seen the backlash from this (their not viewing it)? They have offended many in Maoridom. All that could have been avoided if they merely took the short time to view the clip.

            I’m not a right wing troll, I’m a lefty constantly disappointed by Labour’s poor performance. So deal with it, because I’m far from the only one.

            • Psycho Milt 20.1.1.2.1.1

              I pointed out how they are being publicly slammed for not viewing the video.

              You participated in and contributed to the squawking about it, yes. To what purpose?

              • The Chairman

                A highlighted it and have put forward reasoning why they were slammed for it. And there are a number of reasons for that.

                One being, I wanted to hear what the Party defenders here had to say.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 20.1.1.2.1.2

              Relentlessly soggy ("constantly disappointed"), and as transparent as a transparent thing ("Labour’s poor performance").

              The Chairman is a self-proclaimed "lefty" who is "more left than most", yet has a strong aversion to complimenting Labour and/or Green MPs, in government or in opposition.

              The Chairman is also extremely reluctant to turn their withering gaze on the behaviour and policies of National party MPs, in government or in opposition.

              The Chairman's protestations of 'lefty' credentials are bogus (as is the identity), but that's just my opinion – others can judge for themselves.

              • Incognito

                I reckon he’s got two left hemispheres and he’s so left that the right one’s gone. It just left, out of his right ear it went and kept going till it was lost, forever. That’s how it got there, the right hemisphere, and how it’s left.

                • Anne

                  It's my view that politics is like a simple circle and when standing at the top of the circle the lefties will swing clockwise and the righties swing anti-clockwise. They will inevitably meet at the bottom and become one and the same. Eg. Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Soviet Union.

          • The Al1en 20.1.1.2.2

            The PM from the text in the 3news link provided.

            "The actual footage of the removal, no, but I have seen other incidents like that in the past," she said.

            "I've been the spokesperson for children for Labour for a number of years, and this has been an issue that has been debated for a number of years.

            "I certainly know the circumstances. I know the case; I know the issues around it, and I know the theme that’s being raised here".

            • The Chairman 20.1.1.2.2.1

              Exactly, The Al1en.

              And as I just said to Anne above (reposted below).

              And on that point, Jacinda got an easy ride on the Nation the other day. She should have been asked what are these other similar events she has claimed to have seen? Moreover, if they have known for so long as Jacinda has claimed (on the Nation) why haven't they acted with more pace?

              • The Al1en

                Nevertheless, the more informed a misister is the more effective they are likely to be.

                However, most would expect them to at least be aware (and to have read/seen) the top ones that make the news, especially when it's to do with matters relating to their own ministerial portfolio.

                So the PM is fully aware of the situation, and your smear attack in 20.1.1 has been busted wide open by her very quote in the link you provided as a weapon to beat her with.

                Exactly! All right.

                • The Chairman

                  Clearly, I was speaking generally in the quote you used there. Nevertheless, while they were aware in this specific case, they both admitted to not viewing the actual clip.

                  Evidently, with both failing to see how bad that was going to look, especially to Maroidom.

                  • The Al1en

                    So? I didn't watch game of thrones but I knew all about it, who was in it, how it played out.

                    You're reaching, as usual, and making a drama where none exists to push an anti government agenda.

                    Most people realise kids aren't taken away from families unless there's a good reason. The general statistic, where maori are concerned, is a worry, but that's not Jacinda's fault, nor does her not watching a video make her guilty of any crime, percieved or otherwise.

                    • The Chairman

                      “So? I didn't watch game of thrones but I knew all about it, who was in it, how it played out.”

                      Knowing about it and watching it are not one in the same.

                      Nevertheless, and more importantly, you aren't the PM, nor was the high profile clip a mere TV show.

                      I'm not reaching, you are evidently out of touch with the outrage this has caused, just as the PM failed to see it coming. This lot have become arrogant real fast.

                      Out of interest, what do you believe are the drivers behind the reasons children are having to be taken?

                    • The Al1en

                      The pm said she was informed of the situation, and I believe her over your anti propaganda, any time.

        • Psycho Milt 20.1.1.3

          How many hours of the day they should devote to perusing fine details of disputes between individuals and government departments is up to them.

          And yet, here you are concern-trolling them for not devoting the time to it that you'd prefer they did.

          Nevertheless, the more informed a misister is the more effective they are likely to be.

          Sure, who could argue with that? The question is, informed about what? Informed in great detail about one individual's dispute with a government department isn't necessarily helpful to a minister's work, and leads us straight back to the issues of the time needed to gain that irrelevant state of informed-ness and how to prioritise which individuals to become so deeply informed about.

          However, most would expect them to at least be aware (and to have read/seen) the top ones that make the news…

          And they are aware of them. Thank you for your heartfelt concern.

          • In Vino 20.1.1.3.1

            If Chairman, running true to form, still protests innocence after blowing his cover for multi-multiple times, I have an offer of 49% of shares in a state-owned bridge in which he may be interested…

          • The Chairman 20.1.1.3.2

            First off, I'm not concern trolling. Evidently, you are blind to the outrage out there and how offending and arrogant this is looking. Secondly, as I said, how much time they want to devote to these things is up to them, but considering it's high profile, this is one short clip many were surprised, shocked and offended Jacinda couldn't find the time to see.

            The question is, informed about what? Informed in great detail about one individual's dispute with a government department isn't necessarily helpful to a minister's work…

            The thing is the staff behaviour and operational flaws taking place in the video and written piece linked to are said to be systemic (thus not just one individual being negatively impacted) giving the Minister a very good insight into how things are playing out on the ground in real life (and not merely what has been internally fed to them). Thus one would expect they would find it extremely helpful seeing it from both sides when coming up with solutions.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 20.1.1.3.2.1

              I respect many a genuine "lefty", particularly those that are "more left than most" – so what is it about The Chairman's "relentessly soggy" criticism of left-leaning political parties and MPs that is so distasteful and deceitful?

              Surely The Chairman is not blind to the impression such criticism creates. If I described Bridges/National in such terms, and then claimed to be a 'more right than most' conservative, how credible would I be?

              "publicly slammed"
              "Jacinda got an easy ride" x2
              "as Jacinda has claimed" x2
              "the PM failed to see it coming"
              "This lot have become arrogant real fast."
              "blind to the outrage"
              "offending and arrogant"
              surprised Jacinda couldn't find the time
              shocked Jacinda couldn't find the time
              offended Jacinda couldn't find the time

              The Chairman's relentlessly soggy critique of Labour/Ardern/Greens et al. is not helpful, but then it's not intended to be, is it.

              Please do continue (this is a genuine request) – you (The Chairman) serve as an object lesson in right-wing duplicity, not that another lesson is needed!

              And please, could The Chairman show a little respect for our Prime Minister by using her family name – that's another little tell you might want to work on, BTW wink

              • The Chairman

                Surely The Chairman is not blind to the impression such criticism creates.

                Good old Labour scared of the impression being criticised creates.

                Tell you what, if they don't like being criticised, play a better game.

                Moreover, if a party can't hold its own against criticism, then their problems are far bigger than me having a go at them.

                This isn't China, yet and political criticism isn't hate speech. So as much as they want to shutdown freedom of speech, they will find it will only turn against them.

                So instead of you highlighting my many criticisms, try defending against them if you can. I'm not saying anything that isn't true.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  "Good old Labour scared of the impression being criticised creates." – penned by The Chairman, a self-proclaimed "lefty" who is, in their own words, "more left than most".

                  Just for info, I'm a little left of current Labour party's policies – why The Chairman (on this site) repeatedly and pointedly puts the boot into Green party policies and MPs is beyond me. For example, three months after the 2017 election, here's The Chairman suggesting that Gareth Hughes would be an improvement on Shaw as Green party (co-)leader. https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-26-12-2017/#comment-1430363

                  No doubt The Chair had their reasons, but a friend of the left, really? laugh

                  The current coalition government is making a genuine effort to reverse the damage done by NINE LONG YEARS of National party "brighter future" policies, damage on which The "lefty" Chairman has been strangely silent. I'm so relieved than NZ had a change of government in 2017; another three year of 'governance' by the simply awful collection of self-serving no-hoper National MPs would have been the last straw. Does The "more left than most" Chairman agree?

                  Politics may be a game to The Chairman [“play a better game“], but I respectfully decline their 'invitation' to lay off highlighting their constant stream of comments undermining left-leaning parties and politicians, now numbering in the thousands on this site.

                  Others can judge whether I'm saying anything that isn't true.

            • Psycho Milt 20.1.1.3.2.2

              …this is one short clip many were surprised, shocked and offended Jacinda couldn't find the time to see.

              Unless she happens to be a close personal friend of yours and you'd like to humble-brag about it on this thread, she's "Ardern," "Jacinda Ardern" or "the Prime Minister" to you. Otherwise, calling her by informal or pet names is a right-wing tactic to reinforce their "silly little girl" meme.

              Also: "many" at this point seems to equate to you, Martyn Bradbury and right-wing commentators with a propaganda agenda.

            • Psycho Milt 20.1.1.3.2.3

              The thing is the staff behaviour and operational flaws taking place in the video and written piece linked to are said to be systemic…

              The "alleged" flaws are "claimed" to be systemic – by you, at least. Still not seeing why the Minister and the Prime Minister need to be devoting time to minor operational details.

  20. soddenleaf 21

    So this mayor is hit with a disaster, and goes and spends up big on helicopter flights. Misused funds, isn't there a law against that. Any reasonable Mayor would first assess the damage, less the damage kept getting worse. Nets over the river, dig out the dump move to a new location..

    …but seriously this guy hasn't resigned at least? Showing remorse.

  21. The Chairman 22

    Tracey Martin and Jacinda have been publicly slammed (see link below) for failing to view the recent uplift video. How do the Labour Party defenders on here feel about that?

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/07/midwives-involved-in-attempted-hawke-s-bay-baby-uplift-slam-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-for-not-watching-video.html

    Related additional info: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/07/02/663254/sorry-minister-youre-wrong

    • Gabby 22.1

      Why haven't you watched the video and written a report chemmy?

    • The Chairman 22.2

      Anyone looking for Labour's defenders see those commenting on my post at 20.

    • Robert Guyton 22.3

      "How do the Labour Party defenders on here feel about that?"

      Isn't that what you claim to be, chair?

      • The Chairman 22.3.1

        A Labour Party defender, I'm not. As you know, I'm one of their largest critics.

        Nothing to say on the topic, Robert? Just distraction talking about me I see.

        • Robert Guyton 22.3.1.1

          Just letting off a little steam, Chairman. Your comments don't interest me at all, outside of their entertainment value.

    • Peter 22.4

      I think those demanding Ardern and Martin should have watched that video should be given consultancy roles on the payroll for them. Their particular job would be to tell them all the stuff they should read, all the people they should talk to and what media things they should do.

      They of course would make sure that the two be interviewed daily by Garner and Hosking.

      Actually they should also tell Martin and Ardern what to think as well, it'll save of a lot of anguish and stuffing around.

  22. Just distraction taking about me I see.

    Which is just what you wanted. Mission accomplished. 🙄

  23. A train derailment

    No doubt after a committee meeting, and an inchoiry between Kiwirail, Metlink, Transdev, and a few contractors somewhere in a 'war room', there'll be a number of 'learnings going forward'.

    (One of which might be, for example, why we couldn't have run trains from both Hutt and Kapiti lines to the Kaiwharawhara station and scheduled them outbound again from there. And yes!, I understand there might be overhead electrical supply problems, but fuckall that couldn't be temporarily adjusted).

    Strewth maate! What if we have a real disaster?

    • OnceWasTim 24.1

      Ekshully, whilst I await comment from all the sperts as to why it couldn't happen, I came across that tragedy of photo of Laidlaw that always appears in the media. Says a lot really.

      I just have to ask myself when it was that imagination bypass surgery and community agency became trumped by the risk managers and the stifling of ingenuity. Can someone put a date on it for me please?

      Let's hope we don't have another Wahine disaster because the loss of life is likely to be tenfold

  24. Morrissey 25

    You want a photo of Chris Laidlaw? Here's one from 49 years ago….

    Image may contain: 1 person

  25. Observer Tokoroa 26

    Going Backwards

    It would have to be said sooner or later, that

    Parents on drugs, Parents on Booze, Parents on Bashing their wives up, Parents who have put themselves in Jail, Parents who have not taught their children anything … The Parents who are merely wastrel Gang Mugs. Parents on Marijuana. Killing each other on the Road.

    The spoon feeding has to stop. No amount of tattoos or money is going to fix anything. We have had a couple of centuries trying out that.

    The sadness is, that the Population of New Zealand is less and less Maori. More and More English, More Asian and South American. European .Populations that do well.

    Do we want Maori to Die off Like Kauri ? The answer to that is, make sure Parents live a decent Life.

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