Open mike 08/04/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 8th, 2024 - 57 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

57 comments on “Open mike 08/04/2024 ”

  • Comments are now closed

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 1.1
      8 April 2024 at 11:04 am

      Shows what you can achieve with a laser focus on low tax, small government and deregulation!

      No, wait…

      • Michael P 1.1.1
        8 April 2024 at 11:14 pm

        It mainly shows that less income inequality makes for a happier country and everything else will flow from there (IMO)

  2. Tiger Mountain 2
    8 April 2024 at 7:34 am

    Well, well, well–a gun lobbyist Act MP misleads the public on the semi-automatic weapon issue…Mrs McKee has talked up there being over 6600 people licensed to possess semis, whereas there are only 1593 allowed to possess the banned weapons–presumably mostly collectors–the Police say there are only around 328 pest controllers with permission to actually fire them.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/513682/firearms-minister-accused-of-misleading-public-on-gun-stats

    It is rare for a Police Association President to criticise an individual MP, Mr Cahill said…
    "Clearly she is using these figures to try and suggest that semi-automatic firearms are already widely available when they're not," he said.

    "That goes to the heart of why I don't believe a gun lobbyist should be in charge of the firearms reform legislation or a review of the firearms registry."

    Act–yes to lethal weapons in the community–no to school lunches!

  3. gsays 3
    8 April 2024 at 7:41 am

    Bob Mould is coming!

    To get yr Husker/Sugar on.

    Thurs 21st Nov, Loon, Chch.

    Fri 22nd Nov, San Fran Wellies.

    Sat 23rd Nov, Powerstation, Auck.

  4. Robert Guyton 4
    8 April 2024 at 8:13 am

    What was the name of the religious organisation Luxon belongs/belonged to; something about the Second Floor perhaps..?

  5. Visubversa 5
    8 April 2024 at 10:02 am

    Good to see that the Scottish "Hate Crime" Law is being recognised for the nonsense that it is.

    "Those who support the new act have frequently, over the past week, sought to paint its critics as bigots, as if those of us who see flaws in the legislation are driven by fear we won’t be able to stir up hatred against anyone (except, maybe, women). This cheap attack shouldn’t be allowed to cloud the truth which is that the Hate Crime Act is a flawed law, its creation damaged by the influence of campaigners and the weakness of the former First Minister.

    All of us – including both gender critical feminists and trans rights activists – should oppose a law so clearly open to abuse that it'll be impossible to uphold."

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/euan-mccolm-hate-crime-act-damaged-from-the-start-by-influence-of-campaigners-and-weakness-of-nicola-sturgeon-4581976

    • David 5.1
      8 April 2024 at 11:59 am

      The intention of laws like this is to stifle dissent by those in power, to be used against those not in power, as well as to control the people. It has nothing to do with suppression of hate speech, but labelling as such makes it easier to justify these laws.

    • roblogic 5.2
      8 April 2024 at 8:55 pm

      Jonathan Pie embarked on one of his sweary rants about this chilling legislation, which makes comedy and acting a risky enterprise in the tartan police state. He capped it off with a joke that's probably offensive to your Scottish granny, but pretty hilarious

  6. Robert Guyton 6
    8 April 2024 at 11:44 am

    Ha!

    "A summary of legal advice sought by the housing agency and released to Stuff under the Official Information Act shows that Kāinga Ora’s Māori-first name is its legal name and it’s entrenched in its establishing legislation, the Kāinga Ora – Homes and Communities Act 2019.

    The advice says that this is in contrast to many other Crown entities, whose establishing legislation only contains an English name.

    “There is nothing preventing Kāinga Ora – Homes and Communities from using a ‘trading name’ to refer to itself in general communications (as some other Crown entities do), but it must use its legal name in formal documents such as contracts,” the advice says."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350236750/how-governments-push-english-first-names-tracking

  7. Gosman 7
    8 April 2024 at 1:00 pm

    The Atlas Network conspiracy theory is getting really crazy now. People are now claiming that the FSU is part of Atlas despite people like Matt McCarten being involved. I didn't realise Matt McCarten was so easily turned.

    • veutoviper 7.1
      8 April 2024 at 3:39 pm

      Where are your link(s) to substantiate your two claims:

      • "People are now claiming that the FSU is part of Atlas" and
      • "despite people like Matt McCarten being involved"
      • Bruce 7.1.1
        8 April 2024 at 4:32 pm

        Its a lot easier to prove the conspiracy, 10 minutes reading the face book posts of Gerard Otto.

        Not sure how to share from his page but this is part of a post from March 11, and if you follow there are lots of pictures .

        "The Atlas Network Grip on Government

        This article is a summary of how embedded the influence of the two Atlas Network think tanks are in New Zealand's current government.

        A useful roadmap is to scan through the front bench portfolios of the Cabinet and point out links – but there's also policy itself and where it came from and who it serves.

        Plus who serves it up on a plate for consumption.

        Notably Fran O'Sullivan "Went Swiss" with the NZ Initiative in May 2017 when she enjoyed a one week jolly with 39 others, mostly CEs of NZ Initiative member companies and this morning Fran has written a glowing endorsement for both David Seymour and Christopher Luxon's cabinet in the NZ Herald – mostly about opening up New Zealand for foreign investors.

        "As the New Zealand Initiative has pointed out, other developed economies like France, the United Kingdom and Ireland do not even have laws with “character and competence” and “sensitive lands” requirements like our foreign investment regime." – wrote Fran before adding :

        "As an Associate Finance Minister, Seymour has delegated authority in this area. Along with Cabinet minister Paul Goldsmith, he has ultimate sign-off on offshore applications to either buy existing businesses or establish greenfield ventures here."

        Fran also speaks about how this neatly dovetails with fast track consenting – where Te Tiriti had been shoved aside as this Government decides it knows best and side steps the Environment Court – so it can crack on with making money for it's membership's vested interests.

        The slogan "getting things done" equates to "making money for my mates" if you take a look at the kind of things getting done or getting "undone".

        As you know Seymour is an Atlas Network alumni and denied Act was in any way linked to the Atlas Network to Mihingirangi Forbes on 7 February 2024.

        That was proven to be a lie in may ways since – including ( but not limited to ) by the fact that Act's Vice President ( former President ) Catherine Isaac is an Honorary Member of the NZ Initiative ( Atlas Network ). Then there's Act's founder Roger Douglas ( 1993 ) and Ruth Richardson ( Ruthanasia ) both members of the Mont Pelerin society and advocates for Act. Roger Douglas recently dissed Act – but only because it was not being radical enough according to Seymour.

        In 2008 Alan Gibbs donated $200K to Act and $100K in 2011, $32,000 in 2015, $100,700 from Jenny Gibbs in 2020 – and as you know – his daughter Debbi is Chair of the Atlas Network.

        Alan Gibbs set up an Atlas Network think tank The Centre of Independent Studies ( there's three around the world ) and made a fortune from flicking Telecom with David Richwhite ( another honorary member of the NZ Initiative ) out of Rogernomics.

        Recently Lord Hannan broke the news at the Gibbs Farm that Jordan "

        Sorry if not allowed but its been very interesting to follow his well researched and backed up posts.

    • CharlieB 7.2
      8 April 2024 at 4:47 pm

      The FSU was set up by Jordan Williams in July 2018.. that's the same Jordan Williams that founded the TPU.. and the same Jordan Williams that has received funds from Atlas and I believe has been to workshops tun by the atlas network. In fact, if you go to the atlas network web page you'll find this article..

      https://www.atlasnetwork.org/articles/smith-fellow-spotlight-jordan-williams

      That Matt McCarten is involved at some small level should be of no consequence to their over all alignment with Atlas.

      Also, there is no "conspiracy" regarding the atlas network, their purpose and intentions are well published as are their networks and members. They are quite open on their website what those intentions are, and they publish a yearly and quarterly report that covers off many of what they consider achievements.

  8. Phillip ure 8
    8 April 2024 at 4:24 pm

    Soy-fact:

    85% of soy grown is fed to animals..that humans then eat..

    Soy grown for plant-based consumption is not the environmental-villain many carnivores claim…

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • weka 8.1
      8 April 2024 at 4:38 pm

      My meat isn't fed soy, so you are comparing the wrong things. Also, soy grown for humans has all the issues I outlined to Robert above.

      • Phillip ure 8.1.1
        8 April 2024 at 4:42 pm

        So…because your 'ethical' meat hasn't been fed soy..that makes what I said about 85% of soy fed to animals bullshit..?

        And you just double down on that false narrative..?

        And are you just ignoring the environmental impact from farming animals..?..

        You talk of mono-cultures…when animal farming has well and truly screwed over our environment..

        Do the ‘ethical’ones not do that..?

        [don’t grandstand under my posts. If you don’t want to engage with what people are saying, then take it to OM. Don’t extrapolate out from what people are saying so you can then project your own arguments onto other people – weka]

        • weka 8.1.1.1
          8 April 2024 at 5:21 pm

          mod note.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 8.1.1.2
          8 April 2024 at 5:49 pm

          This cartoon (at least 5 years old) put the hoofprint of civilisation's animals on shapeship Earth in perspective for me.

          Everyone has to eat (apart from 'exceptional' humans who claim to live on light – a bit like plants), and most NZers can do better, imho.

          Worldwide, an estimated 2 billion people live primarily on a meat-based diet, while an estimated 4 billion live primarily on a plant-based diet. The US food production system uses about 50% of the total US land area, 80% of the fresh water, and 17% of the fossil energy used in the country. The heavy dependence on fossil energy suggests that the US food system, whether meat-based or plant-based, is not sustainable. The use of land and energy resources devoted to an average meat-based diet compared with a lactoovovegetarian (plant-based) diet is analyzed in this report. In both diets, the daily quantity of calories consumed are kept constant at about 3533 kcal per person. The meat-based food system requires more energy, land, and water resources than the lactoovovegetarian diet. In this limited sense, the lactoovovegetarian diet is more sustainable than the average American meat-based diet.

          https://ajcn.nutrition.org/article/S0002-9165(22)03370-6/fulltext
          The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Sept 2003

          Transitioning towards more plant-based diets: sharing expert knowledge through a system lens [1 April 2024 – no, it's not a joke]

          • joe90 8.1.1.2.1
            8 April 2024 at 6:42 pm

            the hoofprint of civilisation's animals on shapeship Earth in perspective

            The biomass of domestic cattle is close to seven times that of all wild mammals combined.

            In order to put the total biomass of wild terrestrial and marine mammals (≈22 Mt and ≈39 Mt, respectively) in perspective, we compared them to domesticated mammals (Fig. 4). Many domesticated mammal species outweigh the top wild mammal biomass contributors by 10 to 1,000 fold (SI Appendix, Fig. S8). The most significant mammal biomass contributors are cattle (≈420 Mt), humans (≈390 Mt), and other livestock species most commonly reared for meat or dairy (including buffaloes, pigs, sheep, and goats). These are followed by pack animals (e.g., horses, camels, and donkeys). Domesticated pigs alone weigh ≈40 Mt, almost double the combined mass of all terrestrial wild mammals.

            https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FuPv4QdXgAEr_1T?format=jpg&name=4096×4096

            https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2204892120

          • roblogic 8.1.1.2.2
            8 April 2024 at 9:26 pm

            Mammals are a tiny % of global carbon biomass

            • Drowsy M. Kram 8.1.1.2.2.1
              9 April 2024 at 9:42 am

              Mammals are a tiny % of global carbon biomass

              yes And a single species belonging to that "timy %" is punching unnaturally above its weight vis–à–vis ecosystem collapse and mass extinction. Our huge collective brain power has identified causes and solutions – it's only the effective implementation of those solutions at scale that has us stumped.

              Homo sapiens won't be extinguished for ages, but Kiwis may have to make do with fewer epic sporting wins such as the White Ferns' triumph over England in Hamiltron ("City of the Future!") last Sunday.

              Sophie Devine century leads White Ferns to ODI win over England [7 Apr 2024 – some of the comments are 'priceless']

              Every dog has its day
              …
              But – a single swallow does not make a summer.
              …
              Two competitions. 8 matches. NZ won two, including a dead rubber.
              They are bloody useless.

              We could have had it all…

              ANTHROPOCENE

              What is mass extinction and are we facing a sixth one?
              [last updated 21 Feb 2023]

              Could we stop a sixth mass extinction?

              Many believe the changes we need to see now can be achieved fastest by prioritising the protection and preservation of nature over the interests of financial systems.
              …
              The future of our world hangs on our making what is perhaps the biggest international effort in history to reduce human impacts. We all have an active role to play, which requires deep transformation of our values, attitudes and behaviours.

              Do your bit for nature

  9. Phillip ure 9
    8 April 2024 at 5:46 pm

    How exactly am I grandstanding..?

    And how am I not ' engaging'..when I am replying to three things you said..

    And I'm sorry..but I am unable to comprehend what you are saying in yr final sentence..do you have an example of that..?

    And am I allowed to ask you to define 'ethical' dairy/meat..and there also I am replying to you..as you have been promoting this..and mentioned it first..

    • Tiger Mountain 9.1
      9 April 2024 at 9:46 am

      Meat remains murder–how ever much people like to be in denial when they get it in plastic trays or already cooked from where ever. I predict many more vegetarians if people had to kill and butcher their own meat supplies.

      The Far North where I live has a number of small outfits that advertise “Home Kills” which does sound a bit like murder eh…they roam around in vehicles with high winches and various slicing and dicing tools, despatching various types of farm animals, and then gutting and butchering them on site.

      Plant based remains a better option for all of us.

      • Robert Guyton 9.1.1
        9 April 2024 at 10:25 am

        The "home kill" thing is hideous, isn't it!

        Then there's tailing. I see some progress toward using anaesthetic, but still, it's appalling to think a removal is needed, as it's just correcting a situation we've caused (extra wool on animals that should be in drier parts of the world, eating rougher stuff). Tail-docking on cows, likewise appalling, to me. Hammering bobby-calves, castrating willy-nilly – the fun never ends!

        I don't like it at all.

        I favour plants as food also.

      • weka 9.1.2
        9 April 2024 at 10:35 am

        Plant based remains a better option for all of us.

        How long have you been vegan?

        • Tiger Mountain 9.1.2.1
          9 April 2024 at 1:28 pm

          Heh, that ranks up there with the classic courtroom question “when did you stop beating your wife?”

          Not that it is anyone on The Standards business, I have been vegetarian most of my adult life, not an easy achievement in early days as an industrial worker, and do not have dairy products these days apart from a little cheese.

          I say plant based is better for all of us in a general sense–land use, less waterway pollution, less animal cruelty and exploitation, better health for people.

          • Robert Guyton 9.1.2.1.1
            9 April 2024 at 1:31 pm

            Nice answer. Well done, you.

            We need more plants.

            Big ones, especially.

            That's all.

          • weka 9.1.2.1.2
            9 April 2024 at 1:41 pm

            Heh, that ranks up there with the classic courtroom question “when did you stop beating your wife?”

            How so?

            No-one here is under any obligation to answer a personal question. It's perfectly fine to ask. In this case because you are making a political argument that everyone should be vegan for climate, environment, health and animal welfare reasons. If you didn't want to answer, then just don't.

            I'm glad you answered the question however, because vegetarian is not vegan, and in health terms that difference is significant. I would encourage you to listen to the voices of former vegans who had serious health problems, especially women, where those health problems often resolved when they stopped being vegan.

            We also know that there are no vegan cultures historically. One of the reasons for that is because it's hard to maintain health on a vegan diet without industrial society especially across generations. Again, I would reference the numbers of women who have been vegan and had their health deteriorate after some years and then improve on eating animals again.

            Menstruation, pregnancy, lactation are all quite hard on women's bodies and much harder when not getting adequate nutrients.

            (and no, for those about to make the argument, it's not about badly done vegan diets, there's a whole subset of ex-vegans who were health freaks and paid a lot of attention to nutrient intake).

            It appears there is are a small number of humans can be vegan over long periods of time. It doesn't look to me like it's something that most or many can sustain.

  10. Tabletennis 10
    9 April 2024 at 3:56 pm

    "It appears there is are a small number of humans can be vegan over long periods of time. It doesn't look to me like it's something that most or many can sustain. "

    Weka I can easily make the argument going the other way :
    How much longer can we sustain a meat diet growing towards 10 billion people on this planet?
    And all the health implication on a personal level (diabetes, obesity) and globally with all the outbreaks we have had this far (including Covid 19).
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/20/factory-farms-pandemic-risk-covid-animal-human-health
    Farmageddon: The True Cost of Cheap Meat

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/20/hidden-lives-the-animals-behind-the-products-we-consume-photo-essay?

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.