Open mike 09/09/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 9th, 2020 - 127 comments
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127 comments on “Open mike 09/09/2020 ”

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  1. Ed 1
    9 September 2020 at 6:42 am

    This would appear to be a serious concern.

    A school in west Auckland has closed because a student tested positive for COVID 19.

    I saw Treetop expressed the same feeling late yesterday evening on Open Mike.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/425568/auckland-school-closed-after-student-tests-positive-for-covid-19

    • mauī 1.1
      9 September 2020 at 7:14 am

      Thank you Ed, another superb comment.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 1.1.1
        9 September 2020 at 8:03 pm

        An interesting/informative comment, possibly even a good comment, but "superb"?

        • Andre 1.1.1.1
          9 September 2020 at 8:08 pm

          Wonderful, wonderful comment.

        • Incognito 1.1.1.2
          9 September 2020 at 8:14 pm

          Sublime comment!

        • mauī 1.1.1.3
          9 September 2020 at 9:53 pm

          Someone is jealous me thinks…

          • Drowsy M. Kram 1.1.1.3.1
            9 September 2020 at 10:37 pm

            Superb brief comment. Many people are jealous, and for any number of reasons, but no one should be envious of your command of the English language.

            "Methinks means “It seems to me.” Originally, it was spelled as two words. The me is an indirect object: “It seems to me.” Now it is spelled as one word, although some modern speakers, imagining that it means, “I think” spell it as two words."

            "Note: Using methinks as if it meant, “I think” equates to such baby talk as “Me wants a cookie.”"

            https://www.dailywritingtips.com/methinks-vs-i-think/

            • Incognito 1.1.1.3.1.1
              9 September 2020 at 11:04 pm

              I always used to think that me thinks meant I seem to think to indicate that one wasn’t too sure of oneself, i.e. whether one was thinking something or whether one was in fact assuming that somebody else was thinking something that could be consistent and in fact quite similar to what one was thinking being that might be the case, in actual fact, presumably. In these situations, I usually praise the other for their sublime reasoning and clarity of communication, which is a precious rarity nowadays that I seldom encounter but highly value, nonetheless.

            • swordfish 1.1.1.3.1.2
              9 September 2020 at 11:21 pm

              But me does want a cookie !

              Least ways, that's how I sees it, says I.

    • Treetop 1.2
      9 September 2020 at 8:13 am

      The main thing now is that the situation is contained, that it is established how it was and is transmitted and the resources required to test, contact trace and support on every level are available.

      The options for the school need to be carefully considered. School holidays start on 28 September.

  2. RedBaronCV 2
    9 September 2020 at 8:46 am

    And how many people from Auckland meant to be at 2.5 left town and swanned about other parts of New Zealand and awarded themselves a level 2 to possibly spread it around. 2.5 should mean very limited inter regional travel.

    • Sabine 2.1
      9 September 2020 at 9:02 am

      then you need to leave it at level 3.

    • Treetop 2.2
      9 September 2020 at 9:34 am

      Probably the next super spreader will be an MP or a candidate or their election support staff. I was for continuation of no regional travel into or out of Auckland at 2.5. I understand the reason for allowing regional travel at 2.5 was that it was too hard to enforce. People are not coming back into central Auckland and this is contributing to the final blow to businesses reliant on foot traffic. The rest of the country needs to return to 10 in a group and sport needs to be rethought.

      Many sleepless nights are ahead for the government and a reset needs to take place after the weekend.

      Nation wide transmission was always any day at anytime. The backstop is another level 4 lockdown and this might not be sustainable.

      • aj 2.2.1
        9 September 2020 at 10:13 am

        Certainly another 14 days at level 3 would have prevented this but I'm not sure it was an option given the pressure from business. I hope this isn't our Melbourne. As for the case and contacts, you canna help stupid. I'm reminded of Einstein – "Two things are infinite, the universe and stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe"

        • Sabine 2.2.1.1
          9 September 2020 at 10:34 am

          the pressure from business came simple from having no income and the government not allowing the wage subsidy for the full duration of level 3.

          If the government wants to impose a lock down at the restriction set at Level 3 and up, then the government must provide legally binding rules that would allow for a rent break/bill break + food rations (yes, i can see rationing in our future) for the duration of the lock down at a bare minimum. Essentially it puts us in Home D with all the restrictions that come with it and sadly we still live in a capitalistic world and people thus must pay rent/ bills in order to survive really – and that will never work, not for the workers not for the businesses. I personally would have loved to see AKL go to L4 for 4 weeks on full pay, the rest of the country on 2 with access to aid for those that need it.

          But here we are at 2.5 and we all wait for it to explode.

        • Treetop 2.2.1.2
          9 September 2020 at 11:45 am

          Duration of lockdown in Melbourne has been 6 weeks and another 2 week extention. Then a further review. Were Brisbane and Sydney to have a lockdown like in Melbourne Australia would take a big hit. The problem with Auckland is the size of the population and the hit to the economy.

  3. Andre 3
    9 September 2020 at 10:03 am

    Wear your masks, people.

    Evidence is starting to come through that mask-wearing also reduces severity of infection as well as reducing likelihood of transmission.

    For example, on an Argentinian cruise ship with an outbreak where masks were issued to everyone as soon as infection was detected, 81% of infections were asymptomatic. Compared to less than 20% asymptomatic on other plague ships where masks were not used.

    Then there's a study on hamsters showing that masking reduced the likelihood of transmission, and reduced the severity of disease when it did happen.

    Of course, increasing the proportion of asymptomatic cases has the minor downside of making it likelier an infection will pass through several generations undetected. Which makes contact tracing more difficult, so it increases the importance of the Covid app or some other means of movement tracking.

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2026913

  4. tc 4
    9 September 2020 at 10:06 am

    Couldn't anyone be the next super spreader based on the lack of mask wearing ?
    Basics not being followed everywhere and Europes going off again with positive cases from elite sport, holiday making, gatherings in their many forms etc

    Nice to be here but we've still got a lot of work to do. Did we ever trace that cluster origin ?

    Matariki I’ve no issue with. It could replace Queens Birthday

    • Treetop 4.1
      9 September 2020 at 11:52 am

      Drop the anniversary day. Most anniversary day holidays are too close to another public holiday. Having an event in late June or in July during the coldest months of the year is ideal. From early June to late October there is no public holiday.

  5. KJT 5
    9 September 2020 at 10:06 am

    On Matiriki.

    As retail employers have already turned weekends into working days, they can hardly complain about holidays.

    • RedLogix 5.1
      9 September 2020 at 10:14 am

      Yes, the concept of a Sabbath day that is sacrosanct to the extent possible from worldly concerns is an old one I'd like to see revived. It's meant to be a day of rest, not just physically, but mentally as well. A chance to restore and reconnect with what's important, family, community and one's own inner life.

      Interestingly the Muslims do theirs on a Friday, the Jews on a Saturday, and the Christians of course on a Sunday. Therefore a truly multi denominational society could achieve a 3 day weekend no trouble devil.

      • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1
        9 September 2020 at 12:10 pm

        It's meant to be a day of rest, not just physically, but mentally as well.

        I always found working six days a week mentally and physically exhausting. 70 hours I could do – just so long as I had a full weekend to rest over and it wasn't every week.

        Therefore a truly multi denominational society could achieve a 3 day weekend no trouble devil.

        We only have one religion now – neo-liberal economics.

      • David 5.1.2
        9 September 2020 at 5:06 pm

        Christians don’t “of course” celebrate Sabbath on a Sunday. Seventh-day Adventists and Seventh-day Baptists celebrate Sabbath on a Saturday. Just FYI 🙂

  6. Anne 6
    9 September 2020 at 10:08 am

    Its starting to look like this evangelical church in Mt.Roskill, Auckland is one of the nut-job churches. If that is the case, then no doubt they're into conspiracy theories and denial.

    I see Hipkins has put the police on the job. Good for him. I'm not one of the… we must treat these people gently mob. If they're dangerous and putting other people's lives at risk then come down hard on them. Make an example of them so that other nut-jobs think twice before behaving in the same way.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/425580/covid-19-student-who-tested-positive-an-undisclosed-contact-hipkins-says

    • Andre 6.1
      9 September 2020 at 10:16 am

      My first thought on reading the article was that it might have been the kind of behind-the-bike-shed close contact that wouldn't have received parental approval. Hence the failure to disclose.

      • Anne 6.1.1
        9 September 2020 at 10:27 am

        Mt Roskill was always known as the Bible Belt in my youthful days. I have no quarrel with the main-stream churches. Indeed I was brought up in one of them. But I do have problems with the Johnny Come Lately bible bashing crowd who latch on to every bizarre theory they can lay their hands on. They're ignorant and dangerous and I'm not surprised the cluster numbers continue to increase.

        • Andre 6.1.1.1
          9 September 2020 at 10:36 am

          Yeah, a bit more is coming out suggesting the church is kinda out there. But that doesn't negate the idea that the contact wasn't disclosed because of family dynamics, rather than, ahem, unorthodox views of the church group as a whole.

          [Hipkins] said this sub-cluster has been a challenge to work with as some members do not understand the seriousness of the situation.

          "There are certainly some within the cluster that perhaps don't accept or haven't previously accepted the science involved here."

          They are now being educated on the gravity of the situation, he said.

          "It would certainly appear that they were sceptical at the beginning," Hipkins said. "I think that a lot of work has been done with them since then."

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300102684/covid19-student-who-tested-positive-an-undisclosed-contact-hipkins-says

        • Peter chch 6.1.1.2
          9 September 2020 at 10:37 am

          are not ALL religions 'nut jobs', ignorant and dangerous?

          The main stream churches, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish are little different, praying to an invisible man who knows all and created all. And as for those holier than thou Buddhists, check out their prayer request pricelests. The ChCh Buddhist Temple in Riccarton Road charges from $50 to $300 for a mention in a prayer, as an example, exploiting peoples vulnerabilities.

          • woodart 6.1.1.2.1
            9 September 2020 at 10:43 am

            political parties, organised religions, gangs. three sides of the same bad egg(does an egg have sides?answer ,yes, your either with us in the shell or against us out in the pan)..

          • Andre 6.1.1.2.2
            9 September 2020 at 10:45 am

            Well, yes, any faith system that requires belief without evidence is nutjob, ignorant and dangerous.

            Some are worse than others, though, sometimes also requiring belief in the face of very conclusive evidence contradicting that belief.

            • Herodotus 6.1.1.2.2.1
              9 September 2020 at 11:46 am

              That is WHAT faith is . Thanks for being so kind and accepting of others. Your comment is so telling.

              1. an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                9 September 2020 at 12:27 pm

                I'm certainly not going to be kind and accepting of people who continue to believe things that are contradicted by evidence. Why should I?

                • Shanreagh …
                  9 September 2020 at 1:44 pm

                  And I will not be kind and accepting of those whose beliefs put the health of others at risk. In doing so they burden unwitting rate/tax payers. I do not feel kind to speeding drivers whose self belief of invincibility puts others at risk.

                  'Someone' needs to explain to this group about real Christianity ie New Testament stuff not doing to others rather than the hardline Old Testament stuff that many of these churches believe in (the church that Israel Folau attended has similar people hating views).

              • Anne …
                9 September 2020 at 1:20 pm

                So we have to be kind and accepting of idiots and crack-pots who are denying reality and putting others at risk?

                These people are selfish and self-centred. Anyone who disregards the rules as laid down during the pandemic crisis for whatever reason deserve punishment.

    • Treetop 6.2
      9 September 2020 at 11:34 am

      The reason for not disclosing the contact could be not thinking children can get Covid-19 or that they cannot transmit it. The student is not to blame in any way, the adult responsible needs educating. The contact tracing system needs to have a process for eliminating another undisclosed contact to reduce a positive case.

      • Anne 6.2.1
        9 September 2020 at 11:40 am

        I'm talking about the adults not the children.

      • Peter 6.2.2
        9 September 2020 at 12:49 pm

        The adult(s) needs educating?

        Chris Hipkins: "It’s been a challenging cluster …There are certainly some within the cluster that perhaps don’t accept, haven’t previously accepted, the science involved here …”

        So there are some who don't believe stuff like social distancing, washing hands, wearing masks and so on is likely to help stop the spread of the virus. The science.

        They need educating because they're dumb. All the while we hear complaints about Ardern speaking to us as if we were kids, we were dumb. Some are.

        Then again there are those who think they're not dumb who rubbish advice around the safety measures. Smart arses, they know best. Those two groups put everyone at risk, put all the hardship and effort at risk and are prepared to flush it all down the toilet.

        Of course there are religious nutters here like in some places in the USA too who think God will protect them. All in the three groups should have to sign "Don't waste medical attention on me if I get Covid-19" waivers. Trouble is they'd happily infect innocent others along the way.

        • Draco T Bastard 6.2.2.1
          9 September 2020 at 1:42 pm

          It's the result of Individualism and the idea hat all opinions are valid.. Both have been spread and encouraged over the last few decades across the globe and now we're seeing the result as stupid people act as if they know better than the scientists.

          And now that BS is coming back to bite.

        • Treetop 6.2.2.2
          9 September 2020 at 1:49 pm

          I plan to start with myself first when it comes to being educated about Covid – 19. How to avoid it and how to not transmit it.

          Even the school does not allow people in the grounds to collect children. I have a marker for collecting gran kids and supervise hand washing after school.

          • Andre 6.2.2.2.1
            9 September 2020 at 5:04 pm

            Single biggest thing – get everyone to wear masks. Not only does it protect you and your whanau, the more mask-wearing gets normalised the better protection for everyone and the less risk we'll have to go back into lockdowns.

            I really don't get why the government is so shy about introducing a mask mandate for all public places, especially indoors.

            • Treetop 6.2.2.2.1.1
              9 September 2020 at 7:07 pm

              Masks are important. I have both disposable and material ones.

              What will it take for a person to wear a mask when they leave their home?

              • Andre …
                9 September 2020 at 7:17 pm

                What will it take for a person to wear a mask when they leave their home?

                Well, the government could get really brave (or suicidal) and mandate it like they have for masks on public transport.

                Or if enough people start doing it, it will just get normalised as the right thing to do. Education and official encouragement could certainly help.

                When I was a teenager, nobody wore helmets when skiing or biking. Helmet wearing kinda got normalised over the 90s and noughties, so now it's rare to not see them. Masks were quite normalised in a lot of Asian cities before the pandemic, because of pollution, but that almost certainly gave them a head start on controlling it at lower levels of coercion.

                • Treetop …
                  9 September 2020 at 10:07 pm

                  Cost is a factor as well.

                  I would like to know how much it costs to produce a disposable mask?

                  I do not expect you to know the answer.

                  Some people might not like soaking and washing a material mask.

                  Distribution of material, elastic and cotton thread would help people with a sewing machine and some people would be prepared to sew for community groups.

                  I have been sewing material masks.

    • gsays 6.3
      9 September 2020 at 4:51 pm

      Efeso Collins was on the radio addressing this issue this afternoon. He had the point that while some congregations may hold beliefs that are not mainstream, we still need to take them along with us.

      When engaging with them, the messenger is more important than the message. So if the police are used with these people, then hopefully they are able to speak Samoan or Tongan.

      • Anne 6.3.1
        9 September 2020 at 6:08 pm

        I accept all of that gsays but it doesn't alter the fact that people who allow themselves to be sucked into following disinformation and so-called alternative belief systems which deny realities… have to be brought into line one way or another.

        Climate change deniers were some such group and one of the reasons we have not addressed this increasingly deadly problem is because of them – aided and abetted by an idiotic media equivalence notion which saw them have too much influence on ignorant and naive peoples.

  7. AB 7
    9 September 2020 at 10:29 am

    Seems to me that National has limited room for movement during this campaign. They are occupying a thin slice of ground:

    • They have fallen into line with the elimination strategy on Covid – the mumblings back in March-May about an alternative of 'living with the virus' are pretty much gone. They are left with insinuating that they would somehow do elimination 'better' and allow a greater degree of opening. This has little credibility – their flailing around on things like getting foreign students back in earlier, suggests they lack commitment to the elimination task, and in any case they would be working with the same health bureaucracy
    • They agree with Government borrowing to get through the crisis. Again the dubious insinuation is that they would borrow more effectively by directing money to the 'job creators' in business. This ignores the obvious – that if demand has tanked, then no business is going to create jobs to produce more goods and services. Borrowing has to be directed (as it has been) to support incomes at the bottom end of the economy – this money then trickles up – or in government-funded infrastructure.
    • They insist that the borrowing must be paid pack more quickly than can be achieved by letting economic growth wash it away over an extended period. They are setting an arbitrary 30% of GDP as the ceiling for Government debt. We know they are ideologically opposed to CGT, wealth tax, inheritance tax, higher top marginal income tax, and financial transaction tax. With those off the table – what tools are they left with? GST increases (which they prefer as it is regressive) or reductions in Government spending/services – the English/Joyce slow strangulation.

    The reasons for voting National are now to do with culture/culture wars – or a matter of brand loyalty. The question is how big this bloc is – can it break through 35 or 40%?

    • woodart 7.1
      9 September 2020 at 10:48 am

      good post. think brand loyalty in todays electorate is around 30%. its the swingers that decide elections, and expecting them to swing in behind a party that has swung in the wind over policies and leaders recently is a big ask.

    • McFlock 7.2
      9 September 2020 at 2:38 pm

      September 17 has the NZ GDP 2quarter release. I thought it was already out, but that was an artifact of misreading the OECD chart. lol, my bad (we still look pretty good compared to the rest of the OECD in the march quarter).

      So if we've got like a 20% hit to the economy, the planBleaters will make hay with their fortunate tragedy, and this might help the nats.

      Otherwise, a couple of random clusters moght do it for JuCo, otherwise the nats are screwed.

    • gsays 7.3
      9 September 2020 at 4:59 pm

      The bigger problem for Natinal is that they have shown through this Covid episode that they are profoundly unfit to govern.

      Their former health spokesperson making shit up about homeless in isolation and his toilet seat bullying, the then and current leaders refusing to ask hard questions of their senior MPs and, as you point out, their many and varied approaches to dealing with the crisis.

      That is without looking at the likes of Brownlee, leading CERA and failing to dupe earthquake victims and a former defence minister who can 'forget' the murder of children by our elite forces.

      Time for a heavy prune and rebuild for nats.

  8. Janet 8
    9 September 2020 at 10:35 am

    I think it would also be wise , and economic , to not allow people to come in from countries where covid is out of control. Like India right now.

  9. Dennis Frank 9
    9 September 2020 at 10:39 am

    Prof Spoonley examines the dramatic halt to immigration: https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/07-09-2020/when-nzs-great-immigration-tap-suddenly-turned-off/

    The dial has literally gone back to zero in terms of immigration, in sharp contrast to the previous year when the overall numbers and net gain were New Zealand’s highest ever. What is unclear is what the country’s immigration management system or migrant flows will look like as we emerge from a pandemic. Will there be a major reset or will the old normal return?

    Equilibrium, I hope. In nature, ecosystems attain that via the cancelling effect of negative feedback. Here, collusion by govts of the left & right has produced people pollution due to cramming them into Auckland without providing infrastructure to ameliorate negative consequences.

    Enhancing cultural diversity is good, but I'm glad the pandemic pulled the plug on left/right mass insanity.

    In March 2020, the immigration tap was all but turned off as New Zealand, and many other countries, closed their borders. But few countries have experienced quite the immigration arrival and net gain story that New Zealand has over the last two decades.

    At this point, the drop in arrivals, apart from returning New Zealanders, is of such a magnitude it raises some fundamental questions: when will international mobility, both temporary and permanent migration, restart? And what will – or should – the new normal look like?

    Sustainable, I hope! Wanting to present as a conventional academic, Spoonley carefully avoids answering his own questions. Must get readers thinking for themselves! Not to suggest he lacks credibility, mind you:

    Spoonley is the Pro Vice-Chancellor of the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at Massey University… a Fellow of the Royal Society of New Zealand… and a Research Fellow of the Max Planck Institute for the Study of Religious and Ethnic Diversity… a Board member of the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology and is the current Chair of the TEC PBRF Panel for Social Sciences and Other Cultural/Social Studies.

    • Draco T Bastard 9.1
      9 September 2020 at 1:04 pm

      An inverted population pyramid and a smaller prime working age population are going to provide us with significant challenges. Immigration is one of the options to address these major demographic shifts. It will be interesting to see whether our politicians and policy communities see it this way and construct an appropriate immigration model for a future New Zealand.

      The politicians have been aware of those challenges for some time. It's pretty much why we've had almost unrestricted immigration for three decades as well as why we have short term workers being abused.

  10. Dennis Frank 10
    9 September 2020 at 10:48 am

    The TOP leader seems to have a valid complaint:

    The law places responsibility on the gatekeeping/refereeing of our democracy to our independent Electoral Commission. They decide which parties meet the criteria to be registered and legal, and which are legitimate enough to receive significant public funding. The purpose of the Electoral Commission is to administer our electoral system “to provide an effective and impartial electoral system that New Zealanders understand and trust”.

    Part of that role requires the Electoral Commission to determine how much funding different parties should receive to broadcast their message to the public. This independent assessment carried out by the country’s actual electoral referee should carry far more weight – and the media have a duty to respect that assessment.

    In this case, the commission ranked TOP in Category 4. That is the same category as ACT and the Māori Party. There is no justification for treating us differently to them, and thereby giving more broadcast time to other parties in the same category. The TVNZ and TV3 decision undermines the intention of the law -–that is, to give the commission oversight over broadcast time – not the media.

    The TVNZ and TV3 criteria mean that they are providing a significantly louder voice to two parties who were given the same level of broadcast funding as TOP – even though that classification signals that the Electoral Commission has determined we should be treated equally. It also means that TVNZ and TV3 are giving a far greater platform to one party that was ranked at Category 5 – below TOP – by the independent Electoral Commission process.

    Simmons seems to have made a robust case. Both msm media corps have adopted arbitrary rules that defy the spirit of democracy exemplified by the EC decisions.

    • greywarshark 10.1
      9 September 2020 at 2:52 pm

      Good point. ACT shouldn't be on at all, the Maori Party has a position as part of our bi-cultural status, and if ACT is allowed on then TOP should be too. It seems a decision of grace and favour with these television luvvies at the top of the tree.

  11. KJT 11
    9 September 2020 at 11:09 am

    "The The, Pro-truth, pledge.incorporates 12 countermeasures to the psychological factors that foster misinformation. Signers pledge their earnest efforts to make it a practice to:

    Share truth

    • Verify: fact-check information to confirm it is true before accepting and sharing it
    • Balance: share the whole truth, even if some aspects do not support my opinion
    • Cite: share my sources so that others can verify my information
    • Clarify: distinguish between my opinion and the facts

    Honor truth

    • Acknowledge: acknowledge when others share true information, even when we disagree otherwise
    • Reevaluate: reevaluate if my information is challenged, retract it if I cannot verify it
    • Defend: defend others when they come under attack for sharing true information, even when we disagree otherwise
    • Align: align my opinions and my actions with true information

    Encourage truth

    • Fix: ask people to retract information that reliable sources have disproved even if they are my allies
    • Educate: compassionately inform those around me to stop using unreliable sources even if these sources support my opinion
    • Defer: recognize the opinions of experts as more likely to be accurate when the facts are disputed
    • Celebrate: celebrate those who retract incorrect statements and update their beliefs toward the truth"
    • Draco T Bastard 11.1
      9 September 2020 at 1:47 pm

      Wonder if any one in the MSM would be willing to sign on to that.

    • Draco T Bastard 11.2
      9 September 2020 at 2:38 pm

      And one of the signers is the Guardian and yet they spent a hell of a lot of time spreading misinformation about Corbyn.

  12. Sabine 12
    9 September 2020 at 11:16 am

    why not.

    NEW DELHI — India and China accused each other Tuesday of firing warning shots during a confrontation the day before at their disputed border in a marked escalation of tensions between the two nuclear-armed neighbors.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/shots-fired-on-the-india-china-border-for-the-first-time-in-decades-as-tensions-flare/2020/09/08/d8c5a020-f195-11ea-8025-5d3489768ac8_story.html.

    • Andre 12.1
      9 September 2020 at 11:22 am

      Yeah, just the final turd garnish this shit sandwich of a 2020 needs. A third of the world's population, armed with nukes, to start shooting at each other.

    • Draco T Bastard 12.2
      9 September 2020 at 1:59 pm

      Looks like China is pushing for an actual war there:

      Such protocols did not prevent the two countries from engaging in their deadliest violence in more than 50 years in June, when Chinese soldiers armed with clubs studded with nails and metal rods clashed with Indian troops in a remote area of the western Himalayas.

      More of their aggressive territorial grabbing similar to what they're doing in the South China Sea.

      “These are serious military provocations of a terrible nature,” Zhang said. China demanded that India restrain its troops and punish the soldiers who fired their weapons.

      Looks to me like its China doing the provoking.

      Xi has said that the country will never give up an inch of territory, and Beijing has become more strident in asserting such claims in recent years, Glaser said, whether in the South China Sea or the Taiwan Strait.

      And China has extended that to areas that were never under its control.

      All indications are that China is making a massive land grab.

    • joe90 12.3
      9 September 2020 at 2:09 pm

      Meanwhile, these tools are whining because their decision to ditch the JPCOA is a spectacular failure

      https://twitter.com/SecPompeo/status/1303367064892116998

  13. Foreign waka 13
    9 September 2020 at 11:31 am

    So disappointed that the Children commissioner is using old folks pension as an excuse for child neglect and poverty.

    So we now will just have the old folks die of cold/hunger as we take their earned money (most have paid taxes all their lives) from them Its like taking from Peter to pay Paul.

    And lets not forget that the Government gets millions of overseas pensions paid into the coffers.

    To play one vulnerable group against the other is disgusting.

    • McFlock 13.1
      9 September 2020 at 2:51 pm

      whodunwotnow?

      I'd be very surprised if that was what he said. Seems quite out of the usual line.

  14. Herodotus 14
    9 September 2020 at 11:54 am

    FFS Robertson is displaying lack of understanding tax. Increase the top rate whilst keeping other rates e.g. Coy and trusts at the same level. Just watch those at the very top end manipulate their affairs to reduce the tax. We deserve better, and Labour SHOULD be deliver better than this.🤬But to divert attention lets talk about National.

    "Labour will not implement any new taxes or make any further increases to income tax next term," Robertson promised this morning."

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12363383

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300102796/election-2020-labour-to-bring-back-top-39-per-cent-income-tax-rate

    • Dennis Frank 14.1
      9 September 2020 at 12:47 pm

      Fairly shrewd. Targets the 1%. Then also targets the 1% below that. Can't say that's not socialist, eh?

      Labour’s Finance Spokesperson Grant Robertson has unveiled the party’s long-awaited tax policy, announcing a return of the 39 per cent tax bracket. But Robertson sweetened what would otherwise be a bitter pill by saying the top rate would only apply to income earned above $180,000 – meaning that only 2 per cent of taxpayers would actually pay it.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300102796/election-2020-labour-to-bring-back-top-39-per-cent-income-tax-rate

      • Pat 14.1.1
        9 September 2020 at 12:51 pm

        Shrewd…or tokenism?

        "The proposed new tax rate would cost $23 a week for someone earning $200,000 a year, but would make it easier for the Government to help the economy “bounce back” from Covid-10, while leaving income tax levels unchanged for about 98 percent of people."

        https://www.newsroom.co.nz/labour-proposes-new-tax-rate-for-top-two-percent

        • Dennis Frank 14.1.1.1
          9 September 2020 at 2:04 pm

          No kidding! A pittance. Still, the `victims' will feel it as a tiny prick, as of a gnat, and will decide neoliberal Grant ain't so bad after all. Win/win all around?

          • greywarshark 14.1.1.1.1
            9 September 2020 at 3:00 pm

            The tax is on an individual's income so as he points out a couple earning $120,000 each have no change.

            Compare that kind and fair attitude to the beneficiary who is friendly with a male, earning or not, and is dubbed in a relationship 'in the nature of marriage' and has her already straitened benefit and allowances cut back.

            Has Robertson got any children? How close can he be to the basic circumstances of an ordinary person in a relationship?

          • Pat 14.1.1.1.2
            9 September 2020 at 4:08 pm

            I think for it to be described as 'shrewd' it would have to have a good chance of convincing enough voters that it will have a positive impact…..so no win in that respect IMO

      • Herodotus 14.1.2
        9 September 2020 at 1:09 pm

        And if you belief this will achieve its Headline Stealing aims will be, then you are far too innocent to be blogging on a political site. 😉.

        Those at the very top that have the ability to "Manage" their affairs 0.1% will not be inconvenience at all they will reintroduce what was in place when the top rate was well out of step with the coy and trust rates or income splitting with family members.

        • Dennis Frank 14.1.2.1
          9 September 2020 at 2:05 pm

          Yeah, excuse my momentary naivety – this too shall pass. Could be an effective headline stealer tonight tho eh?

    • Pat 14.2
      9 September 2020 at 12:49 pm

      "If you want a fairer New Zealand, you need to vote for people who actually support one. And based on current policy, the only party who fits that criteria is the Greens. As for Labour, they are the problem, not the solution – a complete waste of politicla space. Don't vote for them."

      http://norightturn.blogspot.com/

      • Draco T Bastard 14.2.1
        9 September 2020 at 2:09 pm

        As for Labour, they are the problem, not the solution – a complete waste of politicla space. Don't vote for them.

        QFT

        We need a change, a massive change. One that's needed is a maximum income set at, as a good discussion starter, that $180,000.

        We cannot afford for people to have too much.

        • JohnSelway 14.2.1.1
          9 September 2020 at 10:20 pm

          " One that's needed is a maximum income set at, as a good discussion starter, that $180,000. "

          Practicality – As a highly skilled surgeon, I stay in NZ I can only top out at 180K but can make 300K in Aus or the US…

          I see a flaw in your argument.

          • Draco T Bastard 14.2.1.1.1
            9 September 2020 at 10:29 pm

            What would the Purchasing Power Parity be though?

            Remember that the market will adjust so you should still be able to buy a BMW. It'd just have half the nominal value that it would be in Aus.

            Think of it this way: You could go to Zimbabwe and have an income in the multiple millions every week.

            • JohnSelway 14.2.1.1.1.1
              9 September 2020 at 10:38 pm

              So BMW are just going to drop their pricing?

              You could go to Zimbabwe and have an income in the multiple millions every week.

              Yet still be unable to buy bread.

              Fact remains… As a highly skilled surgeon, I stay in NZ I can only top out at 180K but can make 300K in Aus or the US…

              I don't think you have thought this through.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                10 September 2020 at 1:10 am

                Pricing is flexible but conforms to market demand.

                It's more a question of if BMW will forgo selling those cars and getting the profit or not. Personally, I think that they'll still want the profit.

                And then there's the questions:

                • Are all of the doctors going to leave or will enough stay?
                • How many doctors is India training up?

                An article I read a few years back was about the established lawyers in the US complaining that the universities were producing too many lawyers and they were thus having to drop their fees. We could probably do the same here with doctors.

    • Sabine 14.3
      9 September 2020 at 1:10 pm

      Why on earth would Grant Robertson increase HIS tax burden?

    • Draco T Bastard 14.4
      9 September 2020 at 2:06 pm

      Just watch those at the very top end manipulate their affairs to reduce the tax.

      Yep, Watch as the highest net wealth individuals have their declared incomes stay at 70,000 while having actual incomes significantly higher than that. That estimated $7 billion in tax fraud isn't about to get any lower.

      • Sabine 14.4.1
        9 September 2020 at 3:03 pm

        And this is why i would rather see a an untaxed income of say first 25.000 NZD a year (based on average rent) as that would actually benefit society. (even the rich would benefit)

        They will never pay the tax increase because they are already not paying taxes currently levied at them. This is just a load of hogwash.

        • Draco T Bastard 14.4.1.1
          9 September 2020 at 4:34 pm

          And this is why i would rather see a an untaxed income of say first 25.000 NZD a year (based on average rent) as that would actually benefit society. (even the rich would benefit)

          Although I agree with the sentiment all it would do is have the rich put prices up so that they catch the all the extra money that the poor would have available.

          • Sabine 14.4.1.1.1
            9 September 2020 at 7:26 pm

            well they already do that anyways, so no harm done.

            secondly, if we ever get a government with guts (and no the centrist greens of today i don't think have what is needed) we might actually get some legislation as to when and how much a rental can be increased, we might get a rent mirror, etc etc all legal and binding.

            But this charade is just mind numbing dumb and uninspired.

            That is is for the election 2020 – the year of the global pandemic, we try even less then we did last election. Here have a token tax increase that non of the rich will ever pay, now shut up peasants…you see we are all in the boat that you poor suckers get to row while we the rich get to set the speed banging on the drums.

  15. Herodotus 15
    9 September 2020 at 12:04 pm

    After watching "The Salisbury Poisoning" and how washout Tracy Daszkiewicz the( Director of Public Health and Safety for the county of Wiltshire) was portrayed, it just reinforces to me what our skilled medical and government officials are going thru currently. The pressure they are under. I hope that there are means for the country to display our gratitude to many of them. As the toll on these people and their families are huge, perhaps many of the high end Titular Honours are appropriate?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracy_Daszkiewicz

    • greywarshark 15.1
      9 September 2020 at 3:02 pm

      yesangel Herodotus

    • francesca 15.2
      9 September 2020 at 3:13 pm

      Well Tracy had to cope with disinformation coming from her own prime minister

      ‘Three children fell ill after feeding ducks there’, she is quoted saying, referring to the hospitalisation of children who had been in the park where Mr Skripal was found. ‘Yes, it’s horrible and disgusting’, Mr Trump agreed. ‘The US and the UK must stand together on this’, Mrs May said, according to the notes.”

      April last year Tracy corrected this

      Asked by the Guardian to comment on the New York Times report, Tracy Daszkiewicz, the director of public health at Wiltshire council, said: “There were no other casualties other than those previously stated. No wildlife were impacted by the incident and no children were exposed to or became ill as a result of either incident.”

      Which when you consider was pretty remarkable considering the bread came straight from the freshly contaminated hand of Sergei, and one of the boys ate a piece

      Later vast portions of Salisbury that the Skripals had passed through post the duck feeding ,were shut down and deep decontaminated ,such was the lethality of the nerve agent on the Skripal's hands, fresh from the doorknob

      This duck feeding incident is fondly known as the Salisbury miracle, whereby God(Salisbury after all being a cathedral town )protected the innocent children and ducks from the most lethal nerve agent known to mankind

    • Dennis Frank 16.1
      9 September 2020 at 2:11 pm

      Hmm. Interesting! So half the Green voters of yore are rabid leftists willing to stab the others in the back, and opposed to teaching sustainability. I suspected they were that flaky, but this proof is provisional. I will await the next msm poll…

      • McFlock 16.1.1
        9 September 2020 at 2:54 pm

        nah, they're the teal crowd who jumped over to act lol.

        Or maybe a point observation is often vulnerable to systemic issues within the polling organisation's methodology.

        • greywarshark 16.1.1.1
          9 September 2020 at 3:04 pm

          What does 'corporate poll' figures mean? Is this a business response?

          • McFlock 16.1.1.1.1
            9 September 2020 at 3:14 pm

            no idea.

            But it seems to be a bit skewed, much toward the lower end of the spread for the greens.

            • Robert Guyton 16.1.1.1.1.1
              9 September 2020 at 3:41 pm

              "UMR polls are private polls (paid for by Labour and corporate clients) but have been more often leaked when they have been favourable to Labour and bad for National"

              Pete George

              • McFlock …
                9 September 2020 at 3:50 pm

                lol but does that mean Labour's leaking them or is it some disgruntled nat supporters who want another leadership change 😉

  17. Dennis Frank 17
    9 September 2020 at 1:00 pm

    Outlaws, competing, speaking truth to power, score 7 out of 7 in consensus politics! https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cannabis-referendum/122703050/cannabis-referendum-election-debate-sees-leaders-minister-confess-to-smoking-weed

    The practice may not be legal, but that hasn't stopped seven Wellington electoral candidates, including a minister, a deputy and a co-leader, admitting to smoking weed

    Refreshing honesty from the Nat contender. When high, did she see the big picture? Did she later forget that? Counter-culture gnosis accepted marijuana as the truth drug half a century ago. Doug Sahm did a cool song about that at the time.

    I remember back to the early days in California,
    When everybody spent their days in Golden Gate Park,
    And I look for that smile on my friends today,
    And I wonder, I wonder how it has slipped away.

    Stoned faces don't lie, baby when you're high,
    Stoned faces don't lie, baby when you're high.

    • Andre 18.1
      9 September 2020 at 1:59 pm

      Fuck it, I'm all in.

      • Draco T Bastard 18.1.1
        9 September 2020 at 2:13 pm

        We'd probably end up with good government simply because, apparently, the most evil thing he could do is eliminate capitalism.

      • Ad 18.1.2
        9 September 2020 at 4:18 pm

        Back in February the largest wildfires in the southern hemisphere and the deaths of millions of animals was going to be 2020's worst story.

        Now …..

    • Peter 18.2
      9 September 2020 at 2:05 pm

      One of the funny bits in the legal letter is the bit about stopping Te Kahika getting into Parliament.

  19. McFlock 19
    9 September 2020 at 2:59 pm

    The Oxford vaccine has hit a wee stumble. It's why safety trials take place. Hopefully it's unrelated, and the trial can restart.

  20. karol121 20
    9 September 2020 at 4:33 pm

    Kim Dotcom (KDC) back on the Twitter wire again (last 24 hours) on Julian Assange, Glenn Greenwald, Edward Snowden and D J Trump.

    A fail in relation to reliance on the NZ court system to permit disclosure of security and intelligence material in a (seemingly, but perhaps not) "fishing expedition", but I am sure that KDC would have considered this to almost be a foregone conclusion ahead of the decision in any case, even by a New Zealand court, perhaps more especially by a New Zealand court.

    The nation and it's system infrastructure aren't THAT "open and friendly" when it comes to such matters as the material he sought, nor many "commercially sensitive" matters pertaining to assets and even land property holdings.

    Many believed that whatever material he had accrued might have been likened to an "Aucktoberfest" of disclosure. Hope still springs eternal for him and his, I guess.

    However, (or in any case), Hollywood certainly sounds like an interesting path to follow in relation to various enterprises and pathways leading to "enlightenment".

    Just reflect, (for a few minutes even) and it will be worth your while.

    Hollywood and what it produces has a massive influence on people all around the globe, and has done for around a century.

    Do not discard the power of mainstream media, and both the film and entertainment industry and the impact they can have on political decision making and decisions made by certain facets of industry and commerce.

    Look at the power or radio alone as it was prior to television sets being a standard domestic living room item.

    Orson Welles and the fictionalized "invasion by Martians" (1938) as a piece leading to mass hysteria. On the other side of the coin, real time reporting by by foreign correspondents not just in a war zone, but actually reporting as the bullets whizzed past their heads.

    Maybe he (KDC) is or was onto something here in relation to power base utilization of Hollywood to serve their own and various personal agenda as opposed to the simple and generally accepted national interest ramifications historically evidenced throughout the decades.

    • Patricia Bremner 20.1
      9 September 2020 at 5:20 pm

      Yes Hanna Barbera had an affect on our politics with their cartoon "Reds under the Beds" Dancing Cossacks… anyone remember those? In Bill Rollings time.

    • Draco T Bastard 20.2
      9 September 2020 at 9:59 pm

      Look at the power or radio alone as it was prior to television sets being a standard domestic living room item.

      Orson Welles and the fictionalized "invasion by Martians" (1938) as a piece leading to mass hysteria.

      Yeah, Ok, I'll look:

      In short, the notion that the War of the Worlds program sent untold thousands of people into the streets in panic is a media-driven myth that offers a deceptive message about the power radio wielded over listeners in its early days and, more broadly, about the media’s potential to sow fright, panic, and alarm.

      Misinformation is a serious issue and. as I say, needs to be made illegal.

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