Open mike 10/10/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 10th, 2015 - 111 comments
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111 comments on “Open mike 10/10/2015 ”

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  1. Tautoko Mangō Mata 1
    10 October 2015 at 7:19 am

    RELEASE: #TPP final negotiated text covering the internet, copyrights, patents, drugs https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/

    Wikileaks release of TPP deal text confirms ‘freedom of expression’ fears
    Intellectual property rights chapter appears to give Trans-Pacific Partnership countries’ countries greater power to stop information from going public
    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/oct/09/wikileaks-releases-tpp-intellectual-property-rights-chapter

  2. Tony Veitch 2
    10 October 2015 at 8:10 am

    My father fought in World War II with the 20th Battalion, in Greece and Crete and North Africa. He fought for a democratic way of life then sacred in this country. Many New Zealanders paid a high price, the highest price, for that democracy.

    All of the above is sentimental crap perhaps, and also perhaps has no place in our me/me society. But it still remains a strong motivation for me and, I hope, for many others of my generation, the baby boomers born just after the war.

    I have been decidedly middle class all my working life but, unlike Key, I haven’t forgotten my origins, nor the enormous debt I owe my society for making my transition from a working class family to university and a professional life so easy and so possible.

    We MUST stop this TPP crap before it becomes so cemented into place in our society that escape is almost impossible. This will be, in our history, one of the defining moments – whether we retain our ability to govern ourselves or whether we tamely hand our rights over to the big corporates.

    And as a white, middle-class male, I’ve got to say, we need to get behind the Treaty of Waitangi. That remarkable document, which can mean so much to so many different people, could be the way to save this country. Prove the TPP violates the treaty and it’s history! We need the Maori people to organise Hikoi to rally the great mass of people against this damned document.

    I will be out on the streets in any and all protests over the next few months!

    • vto 2.1
      10 October 2015 at 8:47 am

      “And as a white, middle-class male, I’ve got to say, we need to get behind the Treaty of Waitangi.”

      Good grief

      As opposed to being female?

      As opposed to being rich or poor?

      As opposed to being non-white?

      ffs, some shit gets dropped into that boring old crockpot of bigotry

      • Tony Veitch 2.1.1
        10 October 2015 at 8:56 am

        Rather an extreme reaction to my stating how unqualified I am to be spouting on about the Treaty. Perhaps it’s my fault for assuming that white middle-class males would not normally support the treaty – in which case I am admitting to a certain amount of bigotry. But, that aside, the treaty could assume a huge importance for this country – far beyond what the original drafters ever envisioned.

        • vto 2.1.1.1
          10 October 2015 at 9:07 am

          Do you seriously believe you are unqualified because you are white, middle and male?

          Do you imagine non-whites are more qualified?

          Do you imagine women are more qualified?

          Do you imagine rich people are more qualified?

          confused and cringed

          edit: I actually agree on your point about the treaty and its position of strength in dealing with the TPP

        • weka 2.1.1.2
          10 October 2015 at 9:21 am

          Don’t worry Tony, its just vto’s usual tangent about how any mention of white, middle class, male is bigotry because white dudes are as put upon as anyone else (and no, that doesn’t make any kind of sense).

          good comment from you btw.

        • whateva next? 2.1.1.3
          10 October 2015 at 3:39 pm

          Tony, I am female and have worked for 35 years to buy a house and provide for my children, I am not offended by your words. I take heart that many people from all demographics realise what what previous generations have sacrificed for, is being squandered. Leaving the next generation without any hope of living a debt free life and losing the health service and secure jobs etc does not make sense to me, like John Key, I would like to see my children (and others) be able to enjoy at least the same security we had.
          The wealth gap is reflected in our children, and some have far more than they can appreciate, whilst so many more have to struggle constantly just to hope for an education, living wage and a secure home.

      • Adele 2.1.2
        10 October 2015 at 8:58 am

        Kiaora VTO

        Why be so negative about a person making comments from the position of a middle class white male.

        If more middle class white men thought and acted as Tony there would be no need for women, the poor, and the non-white to hit the pavements in protest.

        • vto 2.1.2.1
          10 October 2015 at 9:12 am

          Hi Adele, because it bore no relation to the points being made.

          Lumping in the hoary old “white middle male” when it doesn’t apply simply reflects unthinking prejudice – in this against himself in klassic kiwi kringe fashion.

          You last paragraph is an interesting one for another day.

        • weka 2.1.2.2
          10 October 2015 at 9:22 am

          “If more middle class white men thought and acted as Tony there would be no need for women, the poor, and the non-white to hit the pavements in protest.”

          Plus a zillion.

          • vto 2.1.2.2.1
            10 October 2015 at 9:28 am

            Oh. So the implication from that is that rich men do enough, and poor men do enough. Do you see where this old clanger always falls apart?

            • weka 2.1.2.2.1.1
              10 October 2015 at 10:05 am

              that doesn’t make any sense either vto, and I suspect you are being deliberately obtuse.

              Tony expressed something important from his own identity. You’ve almost completely ignored what he was talking about and instead have deliberately misconstrued a whole bunch of stuff about how he identified. Sorry but you don’t get to say how other people identify.

              You are now appropriating this conversation away from the important issues that Tony raised about the TPP and Te Tiriti and instead making it all about your own personal antipathy and agenda about certain kinds of identity politics. I wouldn’t mind so much if your argument had any kind of logic to it, but what you’ve just said shows that it’s nonesense. You’ve taken an implication that no-one else has and you’re skewing what is being said here. I think that’s really off tbh.

              • vto …
                10 October 2015 at 10:20 am

                No weka, completely disagree, re-read my point about his point about being white male and middle and how it relates to the issues – it doesn’t, that was the whole point.

                It is this continual knee-jerk around anything and everything white middle and male that is off. It is bullshit. Total bullshit.

                example – why does his gender disqualify or affect his comment on te tiriti?

                further example – why would middle class people need to do more re those matters than rich people?

                I would be interested in your answer to those two examples

                • weka …
                  10 October 2015 at 10:31 am

                  “example – why does his gender disqualify or affect his comment on te tiriti?”

                  false question. He didn’t say that as a man he wasn’t qualified.

                  “further example – why would middle class people need to do more re those matters than rich people?”

                  Another false question. He didn’t say that middle class people need to do more than rich people. You just made that up

                  Like I said, you are the one making inferences that nobody else is and then you are expecting other people to defend your own (quite frankly ridiculous) propositions.

                  Just to make it really clear. White middle class men hold certain priviliges in this society, and there is a conflict between doing right and retaining those privilges. But don’t take that to mean that other classes of people don’t also have privilge and conflicts of their own. We all do.

                  When white middle class men start to take responsibility for how their privilege affects other people, that’s a good thing.

                  • vto …
                    10 October 2015 at 10:47 am

                    “false question. He didn’t say that as a man he wasn’t qualified. ”

                    Yes he did. Read again. He said “as a white, middle-class male” and ” my stating how unqualified I am to be spouting on ”

                    “He didn’t say that middle class people need to do more than rich people.”

                    Yes he did. Read again. Same thing.

                    Read the detail weka. It is you who has fired off on your own bandwagon. Evidence – “White middle class men hold certain priviliges in this society, and there is a conflict between doing right and retaining those privilges. ” The points were nothing to do with this subject. The fact you infer they do reflects on you and your world view. Read again.

                    • weka …
                      10 October 2015 at 10:54 am

                      I know you don’t get this but there is a difference between saying something as a man, and saying something as a white middle class man. When YOU take his statement to be about being a man, you are misrepresenting what he was talking about (IMO, he can clarify).

                      I’ve engaged in trying to respond to your statements but they just don’t make sense, and instead of you talking about what what you actually mean you keep asking others if they get what you mean or keep putting it back onto others to agree with your basic premises.

                      I have read what Tony said, multiple times now. I’ve also reread what you have said. My suggestion is that you take a step back and think about how to present your argument coherently because at the moment you are making statements based on lots of mistaken inferences and you’re not making a lot of sense. The onus is on you to make your case clearly, otherwise I’ll feel free to just write it off as a white man feeling sorry for himself and trying to undermine good class analysis to bolster his own shit.

                    • vto …
                      10 October 2015 at 11:08 am

                      Oh weka, that is your classic way of avoiding and dancing on a pinhead. Lets go to the specifics rather than the wafty general..

                      to repeat: example – why does his gender disqualify or affect his comment on te tiriti?

                      You claimed this is a false question and that Tony didn’t say this. I have shown where he did say it. Can you provide evidence to support your contention?

                      Here it is in another way;

                      Does gender disqualify or affect comment on te tiriti?

                    • McFlock …
                      10 October 2015 at 4:55 pm

                      VTO, I’m another white, middle class male.

                      My gender alone does not disqualify me from having an informed opinion about the Treaty. However, all else being equal it does mean that my gender does not really give me a frame of reference from which to empathise with issues of diminished power, denied self determination, or socioeconomic marginalisation, among other things.

                      My ethnicity alone does not disqualify me from having an informed opinion about the Treaty. However, all else being equal it does mean that my gender does not really give me a frame of reference from which to empathise with issues of diminished power, denied self determination, or socioeconomic marginalisation, among other things.

                      My class alone does not disqualify me from having an informed opinion about the Treaty. However, all else being equal it does mean that my gender does not really give me a frame of reference from which to empathise with issues of diminished power, denied self determination, or socioeconomic marginalisation, among other things.

                      But all of those together mean that I have no real frame of reference for truly empathising with people disadvantaged by the Treaty. Its effects were only good for me. I can rationally say “oh, this land was taken, these people were killed, these wrongs have flowed down through the generations”, but I’ll never “get” it. Just as I’ll probably never “get” what it means to be imprisoned, or whatever. Some experiences you need to live to truly understand how life-changing they can be.

                      So pretty much all of my comments on the Treaty will be the equivalent of a virgin critiquing a brothel.

                    • vto …
                      11 October 2015 at 10:25 am

                      Yes McFlock, well done you have made the exact same mistake as your peers. All of that is well understood and has been countlessly acknowledged at many threads.

                      But that was not the point of the point was it.

                      It was not about the treaty failures and white privilege and institutional racism and all of that.

                      It was about the relevancy of Tony’s link between his gender, middleness and whiteness, to how the treaty may relate to TPP.

                      a very specific matter

                      But you have backed up my hobby horse that the words “white, middle, male” elicit kneejerk responses that have nowt to do with the specific question at hand. Weka has done it too – rambled off onto a long-winded rant about some other wider issues that weren’t part of the issue, mussed it all up and thrown in “you don’t make sense” in her usual fashion when questions get refused.

                      Just to repeat: It was about the relevancy of Tony’s link between his gender, middleness and whiteness, to how the treaty may relate to the TPP.

                    • weka …
                      11 October 2015 at 12:09 pm

                      I notice you still haven’t explained your own position apart from the fact that you don’t like Tony’s identifying as white, male and middle class.

                      Full of air vto, no substance. Well done on the distraction though.

                    • vto …
                      12 October 2015 at 8:26 am

                      Bullshit weka you’re full of it.

                      This is your typical attempt at a ‘get out of jail free’ card’ by claiming confusion when none exists, by claiming the writer hasn’t explained, by adding in all sorts of other wider and non-related issues to attempt to muss it all up. You wouldn’t happen to be a white middle-aged woman would you?

                      The issue is pinpointed and there.

                      When you get a question you struggle to answer you claim confusion. The confusion is yours and your failure to answer the question is the exact same as for the similar recent issue around opinionist Beck Eleven – which in the end was slam-dunked.

                      Thanks for proof to the point.

                      “white middle male” has become a kneejerk bucket into which any bullshit can be tossed willy-nilly… the onus is on the accusers such as yourself

        • Tautoko Mangō Mata 2.1.2.3
          10 October 2015 at 10:35 am

          Let’s concentrate on the target: TPP. This agreement affects us all, whatever race, gender and socio-economic strata we come from in NZ. We also need to look even further than that and see how it will affect the environment and the cost of medicines in developing countries. Regardless of our income, race or gender our unifying common factor is that we have empathy and compassion for our fellow human beings unlike those who run the big corporates driving this scummy TPP.

          • vto 2.1.2.3.1
            10 October 2015 at 10:49 am

            Exactly exactly

            • Tony Veitch 2.1.2.3.1.1
              10 October 2015 at 11:33 am

              Wow! Strike out the white middle class etc bit. As a citizen of New Zealand I think we need to look to the Treaty as a means of saving us from the TPP crap we’re being subjected to. Is that better?
              Actually, I don’t give a damn how we do it, so long as we don’t allow the National Party, on behalf of it’s corporate mates, to impose this agreement on the country. But I really do think that the Treaty will play a hugely significant part in that process.

              • vto …
                10 October 2015 at 11:45 am

                Agree completely

                Don’t worry about me Tony, this is an old sawhorse of mine, as you can see … I bore everybody with it too often and likely will continue to for some long time yet.

                Time to get out in the garden and separate the dog and chook …. later

        • whateva next? 2.1.2.4
          10 October 2015 at 8:32 pm

          bang on the nail Adele

      • travellerev 2.1.3
        10 October 2015 at 12:19 pm

        Thinking the same thing! 🙄

    • Tautoko Mangō Mata 2.2
      10 October 2015 at 9:10 am

      I’ll be there too… and with others ka whawhai tonu mātou.

    • Bill 2.4
      10 October 2015 at 10:15 am

      Count this ‘white’ and working class foreigner in. 😉

    • savenz 2.5
      10 October 2015 at 10:34 am

      +1 Tony Veitch – don’t get drawn on the side issues from Vto.

      The small pox infested blankets are still alive and well abet in a more modern form of ‘special interests funding’ in return for compliance. Look at Charter schools etc.

      TPP is a threat to pretty much everyones sovereignty in this country, including the white middle class, working poor and local business and government and even the big multinationals themselves who some of are currently providing decent jobs in this country but stand to be replaced by the lowest common denominator’s like Serco style organisations who in back room deals with government deliver horrible results with public funds with zero enforcement of standards.

      TPP stands for greed and protectionism not internationalism. It is an agreement to maintain the most dominant status quo without morals and there are plenty of examples of this from similar agreements that show the downfalls.

    • marty mars 2.6
      10 October 2015 at 10:58 am

      “We need the Maori people to organise Hikoi to rally the great mass of people against this damned document.”

      Why should Māori do that? – So that others can not have their sovereignty ripped from under their feet, so that others don’t have to suffer as Māori have suffered and continue to suffer – is that the reason?

      reminds me a bit of the tour – so great having Māori in the front taking the hits for others – not a thought in the world about why Māori individually were there and now the same with why Māori may oppose the TPPA – hint – it’s not to protect the lifestyles of the big middle.

      • vto 2.6.1
        10 October 2015 at 11:17 am

        The TPP I think is certainly bringing to the fore for many how it must be for Maori to have suffered after the last world power came to dominate these lands and impose their sovereignty on the people living here …

        it sucks

        • marty mars 2.6.1.1
          10 October 2015 at 11:27 am

          it is absolutely NOTHING like it – colonisation is a specific process – this TPPA is not colonisation – it is horrible, unnecessary and bogus but it is not the same as what has happened to Māori and other indigenous peoples around this world.

          The sticky point for you is the same as your comments above – privilege and power and how they intersect to dominate defined groups.

          • vto 2.6.1.1.1
            11 October 2015 at 10:27 am

            Well that’s not right marty mars, as there are indeed similarities.

            Gotta run, but perhaps you could think of signing the TPP being similar to all the promises made to placate Maori around the signing of Te Tiriti in 1840. Lets check where NZ is in another 50 years on the basis of signing this 2015 treaty with foreign powers…

            • marty mars 2.6.1.1.1.1
              11 October 2015 at 11:59 am

              you don’t know what you are talking about

              • vto …
                12 October 2015 at 8:38 am

                Oh right. I would suggest you are too conflicted to see clearly

                • marty mars …
                  12 October 2015 at 9:32 am

                  sure maybe – put up a couple of similarities and I’ll explain what i mean.

                  • vto …
                    13 October 2015 at 7:07 am

                    similarity one: 1840 a treaty was signed between people living in these lands and the world’s largest power. 2015: a treaty is to be signed between people living in these lands and a group of nations led by the world’s largest power.

                    similarity two: the 1840 treaty dealt with issues of sovereignty. The 2015 treaty deals with issues of sovereignty.

                    future similarity?: 50 years after the 1840 treaty the large signing power had stomped all over the local party on the basis of the treaty. In 50 years from now, will we find that the large signing power has stomped all over the local party on the basis of the treaty? (example might be virtually all land owned offshore by then).

                    it’s a high view picture

                    • marty mars …
                      13 October 2015 at 10:02 am

                      I apologise – I was being too black and white about it – of course there are similarities from the high view. The ones you mention could be argued I think but I’m disinclined to do that especially in the way you’ve framed them. Certainly, when I think about it, the fact that people are gaining more chaos, in that uncertainty has increased, is a universal between the two situations. I cannot see any good from the TPPA and, well, you know my views on the Treaty and subsequent events.

      • Tony Veitch 2.6.2
        10 October 2015 at 11:38 am

        Again, you’re right, there is no connection between being Maori and opposing the TPP. I think it was just an association of ideas in my mind – hikoi and Maori. WE, the collective pronoun, the people of this country, need to get off our backsides and organise mass rallies against this abomination.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.6.3
        10 October 2015 at 11:43 am

        +1

        We’re all being shafted by the corporations and it needs to be stopped and we need to work together to stop it.

    • mary_a 2.7
      10 October 2015 at 3:38 pm

      (2) – Good one Tony 🙂

      And now we wait for the Maori Party to take some strong action re the TPPA!

      I won’t be holding my breath though, because they are all for breathing life into NatzKEY’s backside to keep it going, regardless of the negative effects the deal will have on the already impoverished, of which a considerable amount of Maori represent.

      The Maori Party = a bunch of cheap, self serving quislings!

  3. vto 3
    10 October 2015 at 8:42 am

    Yeah nah the foreign investors were having negligible impact on Auckland’s housing market…..

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/72855966/chinese-buyers-desert-auckland-market-brokers-say

    Watch the prices now begin to sink…

    And the bullshit lies of Key, English and Smith get exposed for the deceptions they were ….

    liars

  5. Morrissey 5
    10 October 2015 at 9:10 am

    Why is Ian Smith a rugby commentator?

    He seems to know nothing about the game, but he’s always the sideline commentator for All Black games.

    Why?

    Does anybody know?

    • maui 5.1
      10 October 2015 at 9:47 am

      He seems very good mates with Nisbo. That may have helped.

    • millsy 5.2
      10 October 2015 at 12:53 pm

      The quality in commentators has gone downhill in recent years, focusing more an banter than any form of expert analysis.

      • s y d 5.2.1
        10 October 2015 at 1:13 pm

        hah, download, chrome, install hola, get a chromecast and watch ITV live coverage for free.
        no need to be subjected to nissssbo and smiiiithy.
        the subjective commentary is quite interesting as well.

      • Morrissey 5.2.2
        10 October 2015 at 6:06 pm

        Banter has its place—but Smith’s is of such a low and witless standard it affects the enjoyment of the broadcast. He’s the worst football broadcaster of any kind; the only one I can think of who is comparably bad is Rush Limbaugh, who was appointed, after someone at ABC had a brain explosion, to the Monday Night Football commentary team.

        The Americans do, however, have some standards, and Limbaugh was soon shown the door. New Zealanders, on the other hand, are infinitely generous, and prepared to suffer a fool. Smith has been stinking up rugby broadcasts for years and seems to be ensconced.

  6. wyndham 6
    10 October 2015 at 9:11 am

    You’re a bit liverish and unpleasant this a.m. VTO. Tony hardly deserves that sort of reaction from what was a heartfelt and reasonable contribution to this forum.

    • vto 6.1
      10 October 2015 at 9:14 am

      yes, I seem to have a writing habit that comes across harder than intended.

      • Bill 6.1.1
        10 October 2015 at 10:28 am

        It’s not your writing habit or style; it’s your inability to recognise systemic privilege and its general effects and then your attempts to flip the whole phenomenon on its head and suggest some form of victimhood.

        I can’t get why you’re unable to comprehend that even the most done over and rubbed out ‘white’ middle class male occupies a space of cultural and political privilege in this society – and that persists regardless of their particular/ individual experience or what may have come to pass for them.

        • vto 6.1.1.1
          10 October 2015 at 10:40 am

          I do comprehend that Bill.

          I can’t comprehend why you misinterpret what I have written. Most people do though because the “white middle class male” has become such a knee-jerk dump for whatever people wish to toss into it.

          I think you and others need to look more closely at the detail of what is written and stop the wholesale instant assumptions. You come across like the white middle class male from the 1950’s unable to understand what the women are complaining about. In reverse. Get it?

      • Once was Tim 6.1.2
        10 October 2015 at 6:46 pm

        sounds a bit like contrition. I hope so. If not, I could break my own rules (as I’m doing now), and come in every day to tell you just how gorgeous you are – backed by a cast of thousands. That’d be a bit of a shame though – if that was what was required to coax your better side.
        Anyway, you’re gorgeous darling! Keep commenting, but make sure your briefs are starched, stiffened and ironed in all the appropriate places. And always make sure you get out on the left side of the bed.

  7. Adele 7
    10 October 2015 at 9:13 am

    Teenaa koe, Tory

    Rather ironic that the linked article has an image of a man using a slingshot.

    For me, it kind of brings into focus the power imbalance that exists between the two nation states. A modern day David and Goliath epic.

  8. johnm 8
    10 October 2015 at 9:14 am

    ” Parasites in the Body Economic: the Disasters of Neoliberalism ”

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/10/05/parasites-in-the-body-economic-the-disasters-of-neoliberalism/

    Interview with Michael Hudson on the neoliberal predatory financialisation con which impoverishes ordinary citizens. Based on his book ” Killing the Host, How financial parasites and debt bondage destroy the global economy ”

    This interview particularly relates to NZ especially our obscene housing cost bubble that enriches speculators while making our homes unaffordable for our young couples. plus the privatisation of public income producing assets to enrich overseas investers/speculators Key represents this neoliberal rot to the extreme, this money trader didn’t make his millions by a fair day’s graft, yet so many are bamboozled by his easy going smooth persona: all show and no guts except to make his parasite class richer.

    Some headings from the interview:

    Democratic vs. oligarchic government and their respective economic doctrines

    The concept and theory of economic rent

    The Austrian School vs. government regulation and pro-labor policies

    The case of Latvia: Is it a success story, or a neoliberal disaster?

    The Troika and IMF doctrine of austerity and privatization

    Financialization of pension plans and retirement savings

    Obama’s demagogic role as Wall Street shill for the Rubinomics gang

    left-wing economic alternative

  9. Rosemary McDonald 9
    10 October 2015 at 9:43 am

    Early Childhood Education…has come under a fair amount of scrutiny of late in MSM.

    Any industry reliant on Government Funding is going to do all in its power to ensure that the $$$ coming from the taxpayer are channeled through its accounts.

    Whether or not they are providing an adequate service.

    Whether or not the clients are safe.

    I have grown children and as yet no mokos, so I’m not within this arena, but I would be interested to hear the opinions of others on this issue.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/opinion/72837771/editorial-early-childhood-disquiet-a-wakeup-call

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11525360

    And when parents opt out of ‘factory farm’ ECE, there is the inevitable fight back from the ‘professionals’.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11526737

    • The Fairy Godmother 9.1
      10 October 2015 at 6:02 pm

      I am an early childhood teacher. Previously I was involved in Playcentre for eleven years. I am fortunate to work at a small centre with a low staff turnover so we really know our children and families. I believe that we have all got very messed up about what sort of education young children need. They need to be loved, to have a sense of self and know who they are, they need to learn social skills and physical skills, to be able to explore and make sense of the world and very importantly they need to learn language preferably their mother tongue. I believe that these things are best taught by parents and whanau, the people who really know and love a child.

      The Te Whaariki curriculum has four principles, holistic development, family and community, relationships and empowerment. It has four strands: well being, belonging, contribution, communication and exploration. I think that what it points to is getting the early childhood centre to be as much as possible like a good caring home. Unfortunately a lot of people are very messed up about early childhood education and think it is about literacy and numeracy so they are quite attracted to the idea of structured school-like centres. Parents lose confidence and think they are not enough for their young children. When you couple that with low ratios such as one teacher per five children who are under two and one adult to 10 children with over two children you can see how children won’t be getting the stuff they need which their families can give them.

      Some centres have huge group sizes – my centre has only 20 children. Licensing changes by this government have allowed as many as 75 under two children in a group or 150 over two children. Can you imagine the noise and the chaos. Many centres in low income areas pick the children up in vans and a consequence of this is that the parents don’t see what is going on in the centre. An excellent book if someone wants to read the opinion of an ECE teacher in New Zealand is “Suffer the Little Children” by David Smith. The child forum website childforum.com has a range of articles if you want more information.

      I think the real tragedy is a lot of this is caused by governments believing it is better that parents be out in the workforce than caring for their infants and young children. They are prepared to pay big money to centres for instance they will pay $12.33 an hour for an under two child for up to 30 hours per week if the centre has at least 80% qualified staff which works out at $369. http://www.education.govt.nz/early-childhood/running-an-ece-service/funding/ece-funding-handbook/appendix-one/
      This is before we start with possible winz subsidies and the fees parents pay on top of that. I have always wondered why parents don’t have the option of taking the money themselves in the form of a parental leave benefit if they would prefer to do so. I guess it comes down to the government being happy to give benefits to corporations and not families. This is a discussion that really needs to be had.

      • Rosemary McDonald 9.1.1
        10 October 2015 at 6:23 pm

        Thank you, thank you, The Fairy Godmother.

        Not only because I agree 100% with all you say…especially your last paragraph…but because you have given a full and considered reply.

        My area of expertise is MOH:DSS disability supports.

        I see many parallels between the two industries.

        If someone else is providing the nurturing (care) the nurturing (care) has a $$$ value. And the corporations win.

        If the SAME nurturing (care) is provided by family….it is worth nothing….even though providing that nurturing (care) keeps the nurturer (carer) out of the paid workforce.

        When ECE becomes compulsory….?

        As you say…..this discussion NEEDS to be had.

        • The Fairy Godmother 9.1.1.1
          10 October 2015 at 6:57 pm

          Thank you Rosemary MacDonald for raising this issue. A lot of early childhood teachers won’t speak up out of fear for their jobs. I am fortunate to work in a centre with a collective agreement with a union many ece teachers are not unionised. There are all sorts of staffing issues as well, such as teachers not taking breaks because no relievers are provided and the teachers don’t want to put children at risk. Also staff who are doing non-contact are sometimes counted in the ratio.

          I think there are also issues around women in caring roles in the workforce sacrificing their personal needs for the the people they care for a bit like what mothers do in families.

          • Rosemary McDonald 9.1.1.1.1
            10 October 2015 at 7:13 pm

            And you know what TFG…I am so over hearing about people being too scared to speak up for fear of their jobs.

            I know this is a very real issue and I do sympathise…but there MUST be a way to get round this.

            General question to all….has anyone been fired for speaking up, and then taken a case to the ET?

            “I think there are also issues around women in caring roles in the workforce sacrificing their personal needs for the the people they care for a bit like what mothers do in families.”

            Marylin Waring (hero, IMB) wrote a book called “Counting For Nothing”

            Well worth a read.

            • The Fairy Godmother 9.1.1.1.1.1
              11 October 2015 at 12:46 pm

              +1. I agree we should speak out and Marilyn Waring’s book and the documentary are excellent. Wonder if this whole issue would make a good post.

      • The Fairy Godmother 9.1.2
        11 October 2015 at 10:56 am

        The other thing I would like to mention is the change of emphasis from care to education which has happened as a result of the move from childcare from social welfate dept to education ministry in the 90s. Originally you used to see a lot of places with care in the name eg childcare daycare. Then the names changed to educare or care and education centres. Now they seem to be early learning centres. Care has gone from the names. Care is what little kids need most and it is what families do best. Our society doesn’t seem to value it

        • Rosemary McDonald 9.1.2.1
          11 October 2015 at 1:23 pm

          “Care is what little kids need most and it is what families do best. Our society doesn’t seem to value it”

          No, because it is ‘women’s work’. It is ‘natural’.

          BUT…if you change the name of it to something that sounds, well, more professional….all of a sudden you have a skill, a marketable commodity.,.

          And you can open up the ‘market’ to private enterprise…because we all know the private sector does SO much better.

          What mothers do is “natural support”.

          The Atkinson case ( family carers and adult disabled went to the Human Rights Review Tribunal claiming the Govt. was discriminatory for not allowing family carers to be paid)

          The Misery of Health claimed that family care was “natural support”, part of the (unwritten) social contract that family do not get paid for caring for family.

          Family who could not or would not provide the care that their adult disabled family member had been assessed as needing were not penalised in any way. They could go out to work, earn a living, pay the mortgage, save for their retirement and make no further financial contribution towards the care of their disabled family member other than the usual PAYE.

          Those (like myself) who do provide some or all of the care that family member has been assessed as needing are not paid (other than the benefit) because we are ‘not providing the same type of care that a contracted provider would be providing.’ In many cases, family provide the care because the needs of the disabled family member are too high and complex for the ‘professionals’ to provide safely. We are providing “natural support”.

          The Miserly of Health concept of “natural support” was pretty much debunked by the HRRT.

          This case was about the care needed by over 18 year olds. Adults.

          Under that age….considered parents duty to provide care….even if providing that care prevents one or both parents from participating in paid work.

          Likewise with childcare….back when mine were little (27 years ago) the economy was just getting to the stage when if you wanted to ‘get ahead’ (mortgage interest up at 18%!) both Mum and Dad had to work.

          We juggled jobs and childcare duties, only those on high incomes could afford fulltime childcare.

          How much has changed since then!

          You quoted a government spend of over $350 per week for under twos????

          And to my knowledge, the primary caregiver does not have to be in work or study to qualify for this ‘subsidy’.

          So why?

          To be honest, i don’t get why that same amount cannot be paid to a parent to chooses not to factory farm their child.

          When, (hah!), the review of Charter Schools supports the theory that lower child to adult ratios in learning environments have better ‘outcomes’ for the child.

          This is all very confusing.

          Well, not really, but getting one’s head around the inconsistencies is brain boggling.

          It would make an interesting case for the CPAG…trying to get the ECE subsidy paid to parents who choose not to put their kids in ECE care.

          • Rosemary McDonald 9.1.2.1.1
            11 October 2015 at 1:57 pm

            I’d like to add to that.

            What you said about young children ” …need to be loved, to have a sense of self and know who they are, they need to learn social skills and physical skills, to be able to explore and make sense of the world and very importantly they need to learn language …”

            Young children are constantly asking questions. CONSTANTLY.

            “Mum, why?” “Mum, what?” “Mum, where?”

            How are these questing minds supposed to be satisfied in the ECE environment.?

            They won’t be.

            So the child will stop asking questions.

            And they will grow to be adults who don’t ask questions.

            Adults that simply accept the pap and drivel that is fed to them.

            • The Fairy Godmother 9.1.2.1.1.1
              11 October 2015 at 4:52 pm

              It is the institutionalization that means that the kind of attention to individual needs like encouraging a child’s questions or curiosity gets lost. Of course teachers will be running around taking photos and writing learning stories to prove children are learning but even that takes away the time that they could be spending with children. This is another whole issue – the issue of accountability versus responsibility. If you are accountable the concern is covering your butt. If you are responsible you are a professional and you will be respected and act as an advocate for children. Pasi Sahlberg the Finnish educator who recently visited New Zealand has some good stuff on this and how different the Finnish education system is where teachers are respected and there is minimal testing.

              The institutionalization means that children sometimes have to follow routines for the adults i.e eating at certain times or sleeping at certain times. Some centres are better than that but not all. Also parents with no sick leave left or perhaps no sick leave at all will take their children in sick dosed up with pamol meaning germs get spread to other children. Children under the care of their families can have much more flexibility – stay home in bed if they are sick.

              There are some centres with good ratios where children do get an ok deal. Often these are ones that also charge parents high fees. I am very concerned that children of beneficiaries are being pushed into ece because the centres they may be pushed into are not always the good quality ones.

              • The Fairy Godmother …
                11 October 2015 at 5:35 pm

                Here is a good link about the views of Pasi Sahlberg and the status of teachers in Finland versus other countries such as the US and I believe New Zealand. http://dianeravitch.net/2015/10/09/pasi-sahlberg-teacher-autonomy-matters-more-than-school-autonomy/

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                11 October 2015 at 5:36 pm

                ” am very concerned that children of beneficiaries are being pushed into ece because the centres they may be pushed into are not always the good quality ones.”

                Me too, I have seen this. Parent is not necessarily using that child free time to train or upskill. How much better the old Playcentre thing, only pay parent helpers/participants?

                perhaps there is a ‘gold standard’?

                Every morning I wake up and thank the Deity that I no longer have to deal with the education system via my children.

                • The Fairy Godmother …
                  11 October 2015 at 5:54 pm

                  Yes the good old days of Playcentre. This uniquely New Zealand organisation is now struggling and numbers are going down. Many parents who use Playcentre also put their children in care so they can work part-time. The 20 hours free system had the effect of most ECE centres going to the full day model including kindergartens so they could maximise funding so the option of sessional kindergarten is also largely gone.

  10. weka 10
    10 October 2015 at 10:34 am

    No Weekend Social? Where can I complain about all the friggen Saturday lawnmowers and weedeaters? It’s like a virus.

    • savenz 10.1
      10 October 2015 at 10:37 am

      My personal hate is leaf blowers, is their anything more pointless? Whatever happened to a rake?

      • weka 10.1.1
        10 October 2015 at 10:49 am

        ah something to be grateful for then. Can’t hear an leaf blowers this morning, although it’s hard to tell above the noise of at least 2 lawnmowers and 2 weedeaters (didn’t think I had that many neighbours).

        • Anne 10.1.1.1
          10 October 2015 at 11:27 am

          Well I had my own back this Saturday morning. I had the house washers on site to give my place a once in two years clean. Complete with ear-splitting machines, they started shortly after the AB match started, and finished shortly before the match finished.

          Good one Girl 🙂

  11. Paul 11
    10 October 2015 at 10:49 am

    More propaganda.
    That makes about 20 articles pumped out by New Zealand Pravda to tell the people how amazing the TPP is.
    And only Bryan Gould’s piece to counter this.
    The North Korean Herald. Pimping for transnational corporations.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11526982

    • Paul 11.1
      10 October 2015 at 11:12 am

      David Snell is another vested interest.
      He is an executive director at Ernst & Young.

      Ernst & Young (trading as EY) is a multinational professional services firm headquartered in London, United Kingdom. It is one of the “Big Four” audit firms and is the third largest professional services firm in the world by aggregated revenue in 2014, after PwC and Deloitte.

      Pity the Herald/Pravda does not show up these conflicts of interest.

      • Draco T Bastard 11.1.1
        10 October 2015 at 12:11 pm

        Pity the Herald/Pravda does not show up these conflicts of interest.

        That would require them to tell the truth and they appear fundamentally incapable of doing that.

        • Paul 11.1.1.1
          10 October 2015 at 12:14 pm

          The Herald has never been good,but it really has plummeted in quality and increased its bias in recent years.

          • savenz 11.1.1.1.1
            10 October 2015 at 2:13 pm

            Well Murdoch did take a stake in the Herald. Say’s it all really.

            Apparently the herald Journos are all being asked to sign really unfair contracts too.

            • rhinocrates 11.1.1.1.1.1
              10 October 2015 at 2:55 pm

              A Soviet era joke that is probably still pertinent unfortunately, needs a bit of translation:

              “Izvestia” means “news” and “Pravda” means “truth”, both are also the titles of Russian newspapers, so, ta-daaaa…

              “There is no truth in the news and no news in the truth.”

              • Macro …
                10 October 2015 at 4:23 pm

                It’s amazing progress though – now we have our Ministry of Truth to tell us with what to think.

  12. Tautoko Mangō Mata 12
    10 October 2015 at 11:15 am

    TPP and the IP Leak- some recent links

    1. “our analysis here is limited to the copyright and Internet-related provisions of the chapter, but analyses of the impacts of other parts of the chapter have been published by Wikileaks and others.”
    https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/10/final-leaked-tpp-text-all-we-feared

    2
    http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/10/09/new-leak-final-tpp-text-confirms-attack-freedom-expression-public-health

    3. “Even if it is not perfect, our democracy should not be sold out to foreign investors. The sacrifices of our soldiers who fought for freedom should not be in vain.”
    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/gerard-montpetit/democracy-for-sale_b_8263960.html

  14. marty mars 14
    10 October 2015 at 12:01 pm

    my comments are going to (it looks like) automatic moderation – not the content of course 🙂

  15. RedLogix 15
    10 October 2015 at 12:34 pm

    A good reference on global wages

    Creating a better economic model

    So how do we create a stronger, fairer, and more sustainable economic model in
    which the many and not just the few benefit from rising prosperity now and into
    the future? This is not just a question for governments but for companies and
    citizens as well.

    While some on the left seek to turn away from globalization and technology, that
    is not a realistic option. No country can prosper in isolation. And firms that stand
    still and do not adapt to new technology inevitably lose out in global competition.
    Without successful entrepreneurs and wealth creation that finances investment,
    there is no possibility for progress. But if successful businesses are necessary for
    economic success, they are far from sufficient.

    Those on the right who argue for a return to laissez-faire, trickle-down economics—cutting taxes at the top, stripping out regulation, and making deep cuts to public services—do not provide a viable alternative. Developed countries cannot
    succeed through a race to the bottom in which companies simply compete on cost
    as workers see their job security erode and their living standards decline.

    • Draco T Bastard 15.1
      10 October 2015 at 1:28 pm

      Stephen Hawking Says We Should Really Be Scared Of Capitalism, Not Robots

      According to world famous physicist Stephen Hawking, the rising use of automated machines may mean the end of human rights – not just jobs. But he’s not talking about robots with artificial intelligence taking over the world, he’s talking about the current capitalist political system and its major players.

      If we do not take this warning seriously, we may face unfathomable corporate domination. If we let the same people who buy and sell our political system and resources maintain control of automated technology, then we’ll be heading towards a very harsh reality.

    • Colonial Viper 15.2
      10 October 2015 at 1:56 pm

      it really is too late for this kind of thing. “Prosperity” of the human race is not the question of the 21st century; survival of the human race is.

      And in that, globalised corporate trade and the encouragement of consumption and consumerism has all the wrong answers.

      • maui 15.2.1
        10 October 2015 at 9:20 pm

        +1, and news today that NASA plans on colonising Mars in the next 20 years sound like complete science fiction. Resources and money are going to be completely stretched on planet earth without being siphoned off onto another planet.

    • greywarshark 15.3
      10 October 2015 at 11:05 pm

      But more than that. It is not using the modern skills and the money that has been created to maintain and refurbish the advanced society we have created. The wealthy can’t cut corners squeeze money out of the society and still have a vibrant world to live in.

      And they can’t throw cold-blooded hissy fits when they don’t get their own way and cut their servants’ arms off.

  16. Chooky 16
    10 October 2015 at 2:19 pm

    This is a very good thought provoking interview by Kathryn Ryan on warmongering:

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/201773948/visions-of-war

    “In his latest book, ‘Light It Up: The Marine Eye for Battle in the War for Iraq ‘ historian John Pettegrew takes a look at the crucial role visual culture has played in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. He examines the effects of ‘war porn’, and popular images of battle, in video games and on TV, as well as how military technologies of seeing have determined the killing power of the American war effort.”

  17. Xanthe 17
    10 October 2015 at 2:24 pm

    I am wondering what Steve Braunias is up to with his turning to matter of the lost papers in the dotcom case on its head, he obviously knows that it was the crown who mmisplaced its documents. Is it that he is making a point about just how much deceit media and the herald get away with?

  18. marty mars 18
    10 October 2015 at 3:52 pm

    just watching Hollow Men again – still disgusting, still shocking – I REFUSE to forget these gnat scum and their hideous agenda and yes I mean you too dirtymat.

  19. greywarshark 19
    11 October 2015 at 1:44 pm

    I am having trouble with the site. My comments aren’t coming through, when I refresh by pressing Home still nothing, then F5 still nothing, then F5 again and get time-outed. So I can’t participate. What’s happening?

    [r0b: Sorry, not sure why your last 3 comments were caught. All released now.]

  20. greywarshark 20
    12 October 2015 at 9:10 am

    Thanks r0b I hope that doesn’t happen again. (Just checked – the latest one I just put on this morning hasn’t come up. Has the gill net got smaller sized and catching the small fry now?)