Open mike 15/11/2020
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6:00 am, November 15th, 2020 - 93 comments
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TVNZ News reports that hospitals in the UK and the USA are over crowded with Covid 19 patients and the film cameras show 1 patient. In all the reports I still have not seen a single image of a hospital over full with Covid 19 patients.
They also report 100's of dead per day and recently in the USA a 1000 dead per day from Covid 19 and the film cameras show 0 bodies. I still have not seen any evidence of this many dead.
What is the point of film camera's? They just say all this shit and don't show any of it. I feel like I'm still a child being forced to attend church, they just say all this random unbelievable shit and expect me to believe it?
Why does anyone believe this shit when they can't even show it? Seeing is believing, show what's going on or shove your mandatory mask wearing and contact tracing up your arse.
Maybe the dead and dying aren't there for your entertainment purposes. Have you heard of the internet? It has lots of awful stuff you can fap to.
Why don't you go look for yourself and tell us all what you find? After all, video can be faked too. Truthers of all kinds of things like moon landings and the shape of the earth tell us so all the time.
Meanwhile in Salt Lake City, my cousin and her husband and all their medical colleagues are putting in everything they can every single day, and when they finally lay down to get a bit of rest, they're all hoping like hell they'll be able to summon whatever it takes to do it again the next day. With no relief anywhere on the horizon.
It's been following medical people online that's been the most instructive for me in terms of grasping the seriousness of the situation. News reports are useful too, but that frontline stuff has been essential to understand. I limit it more now, but it's alarming seeing the places which are reaching hospital overload *again. Did people in positions of power forget that one of the prime reasons for containing the pandemic was because of all the effects when the health system gets overloaded.
There's some common factors and some widely varying factors for the resurgence.
Common factors include CovidCamacho rage-tweeting nonsense from La Cage aux Fuckups that couldn't have been better designed to make the pandemic worse even if it was a planned strategy (rather than the spur-of-the-moment ad-hoc idiocy it probably was). That's likely a factor for why Repug areas are in general are getting it worse for this wave than earlier. As expected, the surge in infections also coincides with classes starting up and people spending more time indoors as the weather gets colder and daylight shorter.
Variable factors include a lot of places either didn't really get a first wave or only a small one, so they never really got the message about how seriously it needed to be taken. Utah and nearby states like the Dakotas are in this category.
Other states like California and New York that got hit hard in the early stages of the pandemic have possibly suffered from lockdown fatigue, and were slow to respond to upticks in cases. To be sure, they have responded to the upticks, just a day late and a dollar short.
edit: just eyeballing the curves for New York City and New York state certainly looks like the statewide cases are shooting up a lot faster than city cases, compared to the first wave. Make of that what you will, given than the rest of New York is fairly Repug-leaning compared to New York City.
https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data-trends.page
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/new-york/
Did people in positions of power forget that one of the prime reasons for containing the pandemic was because of all the effects when the health system gets overloaded.
As NZ has a shortage of ICU beds,which struggle in times of crisis such as CHCH eq,mosques, or white island,mobility had to be constrained as well as physical interaction such as sports etc.
The outcome was a mortality deficit in NZ over the winter months,fewer admissions,deaths, etc.
The significant decrease in accidents, also had the paradox of reducing funding to DHB by ACC.
https://mpidr.shinyapps.io/stmortality/
It apparently hasn't occurred to you that they are not showing the evidence because they know the images will distress people…. especially those who have lost loved ones to Covid.
Do you remember the film footage of people jumping off the roof of the World Trade Centre in 2001 because they preferred death by falling than being burnt alive? Health officials were so alarmed at the psychological consequences of such images they called for media outlets to be banned from showing them.
"Do you remember the film footage of people jumping off the roof of the World Trade Centre in 2001 because they preferred death by falling than being burnt alive? "
I remember catching a bit of that before they started the delayed editing.
It was f-ing awful
I found the written reports (sometimes first hand) of covid hitting Italy in March traumatic enough, no way did I want images or video.
911 was the last time I watched live emergencies where people were dying or suffering extremely. Unless there is a good reason to watch I don't see the point. Some people get traumatised, others develop cognitive dissonance and/or increased tolerance to violence.
When somebody is on life-support or has died, the media have the rightful duty to barge in, poke and prod the body and film up-close, interrogate staff and get their personal contact details and publish it, live, preferentially, in lieu of us checking for ourselves with our own eyes. Do you like Zen kōan?
@Non-Personal
Are the dying non-personal persons?. When are the dead non-persons – just before, or the moment after? Do you need to see the nail-holes in the hands?
Because, my conspiracist leaning friend, sick people and dead people have rights of privacy! Duh!!
I have seen evidence of over full hospitals on Aljazeera TV channel 16 and the storing of bodies. As well the pressure health care workers are under.
Just on AJ TV 180,000 Covid infections in the US in the last 24 hrs. Britain has a high as well.
I will not comment
I will not comment
I will not comment
I will not comment
I will not
aaarrrrgghhhhhhh!
@ Non Personal … Are you for real?
Perhaps first hand experience of Covid-19 one way or the other, will get you to change your mind quick smart re the awful reality of the existence of the virus!
I realise I am wasting my own good time by responding to you. Your level of ignorance defies belief. Please get some help
D'yareckon the moon-landing was faked..?
Heh! Had the same thought but concluded that the fake was faked, which kinda makes the real thing real in a surreal kinda way, for real.
I remember many a happy hour at Vic in our Philosophy III tutorials with Prof Hughes discussing that very moot "What is 'real'?"
Hangovers are real and the good nights before are surreal. Like a good Groundhog, we keep repeating the same type of behaviour over and over again.
There is one fact that proves it happened…it was the height of the cold war…so russia/china..plus everyone else on the planet with a telescope tracked the fucken thing through the skies..both there and back…unless of course…they were all in the conspiracy too…to believe the moon-landing was faked is the mark of a true idiot..
Earth-based telescopes at the time and even at present are not powerful enough to make out any detail of the landings on the actual Moon itself. If they had used a monster-truck with giant wheels, it would have been different or a huge flag …
This is from a nurse who will tell you – yes it is real!
I have a night off from the hospital. As I’m on my couch with my dog I can’t help but think of the Covid patients the last few days. The ones that stick out are those who still don’t believe the virus is real. The ones who scream at you for a magic medicine and that Joe Biden is Going to ruin the USA. All while gasping for breath on 100% Vapotherm. They tell you there must be another reason they are sick. They call you names and ask why you have to wear all that “stuff” because they don’t have COViD because it’s not real. Yes. This really happens. And I can’t stop thinking about it. These people really think this isn’t going to happen to them. And then they stop yelling at you when they get intubated. It’s like a fucking horror movie that never ends. There’s no credits that roll. You just go back and do it all over again.
https://twitter.com/JodiDoering/status/1327771329555292162
You sound like Billy T the fuckwit.
[Image resized]
Tried to adjust this image to fit (eg with 450) – it appears ok in the preview, but when submitted it always reverts to the original size
You using the width box in the window for embedding the image? I never got that to work for me.
What works for me is not bother with any of the other boxes, and just put in the image URL. Then submit the comment. Then immediately edit the comment to add in width="500" just before the />
Yep I've tried all those work arounds. But for some reason it is not working tonight. Had another image wrt to the tangerine ***** driving past his base today and observing just how much that showed how much he cared.
Ha! Fixed it – I'd been missing a space :blush:
Add this before the end of tag: width="100%"
Heh..!…very good..!…
[Removed stray letter from e-mail address]
Famous Painter George Bush Canceled After Early 2000s War Crime Allegations Resurface
McLENNAN COUNTY, Texas — Prolific artist and former U.S. President George W. Bush is facing a firestorm of controversy today after numerous videos emerged online of his alleged war crimes between 2003 to 2009.
“I’ve known him for years and he’s always been nice. He never once declared war crimes on my family, so I have a hard time believing any of these credible accusations are true,” said former First Lady Michelle Obama. “What’s next? Today, we’re cancelling Bush for unjust wars; tomorrow, we’re cancelling my husband just for bombing a hospital? If things keep going this way, everyone will be too afraid to order drone strikes on civilians.”
https://thehardtimes.net/culture/famous-painter-george-bush-canceled-after-early-2000s-war-crime-allegations-resurface/
Anyone else gong to EcoDay? Trackmeet of all activist beings in western Auckland?
https://www.ecomatters.org.nz/event/ecohub-market-day-2/
Jubilant Reaction To Trump Defeat Quickly Soured By News Of Biden Win
"Seconds after the room had erupted into cheers, applause, and a few big sighs of relief, sources confirmed Tuesday that a local group of friend’s jubilant reaction to Donald Trump’s defeat had soured quickly upon the announcement of Joe Biden’s victory. “One moment we’re celebrating our nation’s repudiation of Trump, and the next Biden is declared the winner—what a buzzkill,” said 29-year-old Ryan Lopez"
https://politics.theonion.com/jubilant-reaction-to-trump-defeat-quickly-soured-by-new-1845551327
…the reaction of every single person I have talked to about the US election, Trump and Biden both universally despised by all right thinking citizens.
You do realise that The Onion is a satirical comedy dhow don't you?
…you do understand that most good satire and especially political satire are based within unsaid truths..don't you?
Like the unsaid truth (in liberal press) that Biden is corporate whore and well known war monger amongst other things..
Politically, poor Mr Thornton is like a vegan stuck in a town where the only place to get a feed is Carnivore Carl's House of Dripping Bloody Steaks.
Unlike you Andre, I actually have a firm set of moral and ethical principles that I live by that are not negotiable, I know that this concept is quite foreign to you…but there you have it.
And relying on the onion for yr political news/information is one of them..?…heh..!
I'm on Adrian's side here.
Good satire is so often truthful at the same time as being satirical.
Yes..satire is a wonderful thing..but I don't think satirists would claim to be telling the truth…so posting from the onion as tho' it is the 'truth'..and using it as a launching pad for an 'i reckon'…is kinda strange…and funny in itself…
Nah it's true because many people voted for Biden as the lessor of two evils – because Biden was not Trump. Basically a lose:lose situation or a Pyrrhic victory.
It's satirical cause it's poking fun at that very notion and at a US society / political system that basically gives you but two choices and it is clearly exaggerating the effect.
Closing 5:00 pm today Bird of the Year Vote: Exercise your rights
https://www.birdoftheyear.org.nz/
As a bird lover I want to vote for all of them.
Do you reckon the Fairy Tern would be a good pick?
Surely it's its turn?
Done.
unfortunately it is a lesser known bird gets my vote, as out of the sight of the public very soon there will be no chance for those birds at all.
so every year I look for those less known for my vote and to hopefully increase its profile- saying that they all need attention, DOC resources and habitat protection
MatukuBittern
I am pleased to say that I had to dodge a makutu whilst driving down Henderson Bay Road a wee while ago. Rare indeed, and a delight to see one out and about.
Yes, I think it is the bittern's turn.
Went for the Grey Warbler. Love a description of it I read somewhere – that it cleverly inverts the Victorian maxim that children should be seen and not heard.
Always feel sorry for the grey warbler. It gets parasitised by the lazy shining cuckoos. They lay their eggs in the warbler nests and then their chicks kick out the warbler chicks and make the warbler mum and dad work like crazy feeding them.
Hutton's Shearwater for me, obviously.
I'm fairly sure I saw a pair of Crested Grebe here in Auckland this week, and wonder if the stormy weather might have displaced them (their distribution is in the South Island).
I took a real good look as it was my first encounter with the species. They were on MOTAT land, beside an estuary/stream system.
So we have a $9 billion Hort industry relying on about 15,000 low wage RSE workers. MIQ facilities quite rightly accepting returning NZ passport holders first. NZ workers choose not to do the hard work at minimum pay rates in an industry rife with reports of exploitation by “labour contractors.” It sounds ripe ground for a unionised workforce with much better worker rights and protection. Growers simply have to face the new reality, negotiate with the Kiwi workforce and their representatives or go broke. Employment contract laws are out dated and very one sided. Time for change?
Definitely time for a change. Actually I think it could do with even wider framing. I really don't understand why Labour won't assist workers to empower themselves by making workforces part of the business conversation. We miss out on so much when we don't harness all the ability of the total workforce. We education people then when they join the workforce, rather than creating and contributing, they are told to sit down and listen only to the current managerial cult.
As to the fruit picking – at the minimum this time around I'd like to see an accreditation scheme – just to let potential workers know such things as whether the employer is compliant with labour and tax laws, are they overseas owned because I don't think anyone needs to be slave labour for overseas profit.
We have had plenty of commentary about water bottling and not being about to benefit from mining the resource yet we also have this hort. industry and don’t forget fishing. IMO little different from water bottling
The use of offshore labour to prop up successful industrial sectors.
It may be that they'll do both. NZ labour simply cannot compete with the cheap labour offshore.
Definitely time for a change but the change is actually in trade laws. We, as a nation, need to step up and say that we will only trade with countries that have the same or similar laws and enforcement as ours. This is to ensure that costs are properly accounted for.
Of course, the end result of that will be the minimising of international trade.
Love to read your 'pungent' comments on the recently signed RECEP (or whatever it's called) 'free' trade agreement.
Nothing in it for the average kiwi, but the big players will make some bucks!
Yes. Time for a change. I think though that the Hort industry will hold out expecting the government to come to their rescue.
The wages in the local (HB) HORT industry are a joke (a bad one) even if you go on contract and prune or pick well above the average, and believe me a worker has to work fucking hard to make that happen, once you take rain days into account that worker will be earning less than minium wage at the end of most months of the season..and then to add insult to injury, getting topped up by winz is far from straight forward, and even if you do make it through their obvious "thinning out process", they will only top up a workers wage to the level of the unemployment benefit, not the wages they lost over those days!
The New Zealand Labour won't be batting for these workers any time soon….no that party of middle class wankers stopped being even pretending to be a workers party long long ago.
QFT
I posted a few years back about the Labour Party having the cheek to have prominently on their website the 8 hour working day 40 hour working week pointing out that it was ridiculous they highlighted something they no longer believe in.
Coincidently or not it disappeared within a few weeks. That re-inforced their non-belief in it.
They also no longer believed in the right to strike as they have left that to be only at the expiry of a contract and no other time.
Like increasing benefit rates they have done nothing about giving workers a legal right to strike – the unions are just as useless negotiating multi-year agreement which reduce the right to strike to once every three years. Unions are just as fucked up as the Labour Party.
No use having power you can't actually exercise.
@a.t…Yep..!
The unemployment rate in Marlborough has been the among lowest in NZ for quite a few years and was 2.6% in June this year or about a few hundred people. At those number you are down to only those who can do quite sedentary work because of age, injury, addiction and other causes. In effect anybody that can work in Marlborough has a job.
RSE workers are about 3000 and those jobs are a huge benefit to the mostly Pacific Islands that they come from. Stop denigrating RSE workers, they are no different from workers coming from Wellington or Auckland, except in one respect, they are a lot more capable and a hell of a lot more motivated.
To label them in a derogatory manner simply because they come from the Pacific to where the work is, is racist.
They are paid at least the minimum wage and mostly a lot more and are housed in good accomodation that has to pass muster by the Department. They are almost without exception bloody nice people.
They are also the highest paid people by a very, very long margin in their own country, equivilant to probably a Cabinet Minister in NZ.
Whomst labelling RSE workers in racial epithets?
The payments of RSE workers is a drain on NZs balance of payments. Better for NZs economy for that money to be circulated back within NZs internal economy.
If the growers have to take less dividends from the profits to avoid tax in order to pay more to NZers to entice them to pick fruit and grapes and what have you, then that's hardly going to send them to the poor house.
After all, Francine Perry has a house worth 3million, multiple shareholdings, and likely a trust with multiple properties in it too. Can't forget her late model Audi.
Yeah, nah, the growers complaining aren't complaining at the fact they can't get RSE workers. They're complaining about the fact they might not be able to buy an extra rental property or three, or upgrade the Audi to the latest model, this year, if they had to hire NZers at a rate that enables NZers to travel to work, and recognises the hard physical labour involved in horticulture pruning and picking. I mean, it took female care workers years to fight for the fact their work was just as skilled and demanding as other physical labour – horticulture is just behind the 8 ball. In fact, it's so far behind the 8 ball, that the 8 ball hasn't even been made in the factory yet, for horticulture to get behind.
@ James Thrace +1
"If the growers have to take less dividends from the profits to avoid tax in order to pay more to NZers to entice them to pick fruit and grapes and what have you, then that's hardly going to send them to the poor house."…too fucking right!
You have missed the point that there are no workers to do the work . And who the fuck is francine Perry /
The RSE scheme has been used to undermine wage growth in the horticultural industry that is just a fact, why on earth do you think there hasn’t been a significant rise in picking bin rates for nearly twenty years? and most especially during the past decade when the industry has been booming, every year their returns would increase while wages stayed stagnant…exploiting one labour force ( pacific Islanders) against another(NZ workers) in a text book operation of class war pure and simple.
Because the one rule of growing stuff is that the price you get for it falls just a little bit every year. Consumers expect everything to be on special pretty much all the time and they set the price. Try selling something to a supermarket chain and get a grasp of what producers are facing everyday.
"The packing house provides accommodation too, with four roommates to one bedroom. Two double bunks where there used to be one, a lean pillow on each mattress. An acquaintance of Mum’s, who used to run the administration at the packing house, confirmed that only two people are supposed to sleep in each room. The four-to-one bedrooms are a recent addition for which the workers are charged $117 each per week. Mum’s disgusted by this. She says they have to share the bunks, and some barely fit on the mattress. The springs creak whenever they turn over in the metal bunk beds."
"Work slows down for a fortnight and the packers only work three or four days a week. As a result the Tongans are not earning much money to send back to their families, and they’re hungry. Groups of Tongan packers sit near Mum and Grant’s table, looking at their food while they’re eating. When Mum takes out an apple, Ana asks for a bite"
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/hard-labour-in-paradise
How many ex P.I. Cabinet Ministers you think amongst that lot?
I can’t see anyone in the above train of comments denigrating RSE workers. They are exploited to the same or worse extent, by Hort NZ, as Kiwis. RSE workers have even less choice and a recent charge of modern day slavery, in Hawke’s Bay, led to a “Labour contractor” being gaoled. The point is, collective bargaining is a real need and a union is the only way to do this.
Whatever is negotiated with the orchards should definitely be the same for the RSE workers. No way should we be exploiting them in our labour market. And the accommodation charging is just a version of the company store and it needs to stop.
And the cost of airflights,visas etc?
denigrating?…perhaps not…justifying exploitation definitely.
15 November 2020 at 2:38 pm
They were called slaves, that is derogatory and their ethnicity is often mentioned.
Were Kiwis going to Aussie mines for the last 40 years "slaves ".
It's a dog whistle to make a political point using some of the nicest people you could meet who are, like the Kiwis to Australia before them delighted to be making what amounts to huge money back home.
It's been happening all day ref.
This is an i trresting development in testing accuracy….
From https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?blog=Market-Ticker
But then yesterday Elon Musk showed up. He wants to be in the NASA control room, a very reasonable desire, when his Dragon capsule is launched with real people in it. NASA requires a negative Covid test to be there. That seems somewhat reasonable too; this is a high-security area and the people in there are very important to NASA, so if they want a swab up your nose, well, here it comes.
He popped positive. No soup for you, sir, says NASA!
Except…. Musk is richer than God and he also doesn't give a **** about shoving government bull**** right up their ass. So he demanded a re-test, right there, right now. I assume he offered to pay for it too; the privilege of not caring about money helps in a situation like this, you see.
And, because he's not stupid and, as I said, he's perfectly happy to shove bull**** up their ass, he didn't just do this once.
He did it three more times. All on the same day, same nurse, in sequence.
He got two positive and two negative results.
Now Musk is either positive or negative, obviously. But whichever way it is he just dropped a nuclear weapon in the middle of the Covid19 testing industry and blew it to beyond the orbit of Mars. Exactly nobody in the media is reporting that, but that's what he did — conclusively.
… Exactly nobody in the media is reporting that …
Except Wall Street Journal, USA Today, NBC, Reuters, Washington Post … and that's just half the media that just show up in the first page of a search.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=musk+covid+positive+negative&tbm=nws&source=univ&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-067J9YPtAhVbyjgGHdFeCnEQt8YBKAF6BAgKEB0&biw=1920&bih=966
Seriously, what is it with this unhinged idea that media don't report stuff? It's reached that point that making that assertion has become a fairly reliable indicator of an idiot conspiracy theorist.
As for the story itself. it's been known for a long time that COVID testing has varying degrees of positive and negative accuracy. Accuracy depends on the method used, current viral load, where the sample is taken from, and a bunch of other factors. The only slight bit of interest in the story is how it relates to Musk's desire to be in the control room, and his past controversial statements and actions with respect to COVID.
On Friday, he had questioned the veracity of rapid antigen testing, tweeting: "Something extremely bogus is going on. Was tested for covid four times today. Two tests came back negative, two came back positive. Same machine, same test, same nurse."
Fake
outragenews.I think you may have slightly miss interpreted the final paragraph,
How much would you pay for that test….and how badly poor accuracy test results are giving a false picture of what is actually happening,
That is the issue he is commenting on as not being reported, not the news that Musk test results were so random.
"Poor accuracy"?
What's the accuracy of the test in question? Got a link to the ROC plot?
Dude narrowly failed a screening test. Could be a misdiagnosis, could be that his viral load at the time was borderline – maybe he was getting over it and didn't know.
But he still failed it twice. Would you rather a test that erred on the side of false negatives?
In his big speech the other day Trump once again spoke about the testing. The 'best' tests and the best testing. There was the acceptance and acknowledgement there that there are tests and there are tests.
:SIGH:
This has been known for some months. But in America where quicker is always better..
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/fast-isnt-always-better-experts-worry-about-rise-of-rapid-covid-19-testing
That was reported on 26 August. The inaccuracy of the antigen tests has been well understood within the health community for some time before that.
There's the old tradies' rule that work can be fast, good, or cheap, you pick two out of three.
Medical tests are similar, with the proviso that "good" can be "specific" or "sensitive".
NASA wanted sensitivity as a priority. That often means a trade-off against "specificity" – sometimes it will confuse something else for what you are testing for.
Meh. I had wondered why Musk was going apeshit over it. Apparently he can send people into space, but he can't watch it over zoom lol.
Oh Dear! How Sad! lol Maybe he could take a ride in his Tesla up there
I hope the UK does it, and I wish the NZ govt. would do it too. In fact I wish all countries would do it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/54893437
You can come up with all the excuses… it's neo-liberalism… it's free trade agreements taking away their jobs and… people are entitled to their views etc., but the truth is:
These people are one dirty great screw loose and they're dangerous.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/430670/opposition-as-nz-joins-world-s-largest-free-trade-agreement
Here we go again. The suits find it suits them to sign up to these constricting trade agreements and if we upset any of the ‘partners’ the suits will fly.
When is our new government supposed to actually start work?
I mean great to see the new Minister of Civil Defence out there with a shovel and all, but seriously team where's the momentum?
They just kept moving so you won’t sense a change of momentum.
Sunday, 15 November 2020. Auckland.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/430670/opposition-as-nz-joins-world-s-largest-free-trade-agreement
Australia went from relief that it had had several days without any community transmission to a certain smugness, with eyes cast over the ditch at NZs recent leakage from quarantine…..until today. A new cluster has emerged in Adelaide, the first in the community since April.The source is a worker at a quarantine hotel, who appears to have passed the virus on to family members who work in places where further transmission is likely – no room for complacency as the Chief Health Officer reminds everyone in SA. Mind you, compared to the horror figures coming out of the U.S. and Europe (and just about everywhere else) these little leaks seem pretty insignifcant on a world scale.
Tegnell is admitting that his PlanB-style non-lockdown infectious disease control plan did not mitigate the second wave. His math was a little bit off initially, fair enough. But he committed to the plan even when it others said it was going pear-shaped.
If it were fiction, he'd be a bit of a tragic figure – reminds me of Kodos the Executioner. Similar body count so far, too.