Open mike 16/07/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 16th, 2012 - 195 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

195 comments on “Open mike 16/07/2012 ”

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  1. Jenny 1
    16 July 2012 at 6:48 am

    It is way over time that we dropped the con job that is the ETS.

    Will the Green Party caucus mount a parliamentary campaign to get rid of it?

    Will the Labour, National and ACT parties unite to preserve it?

    Could this be the issue that differentiates the Green from the pro-warming parties?

    Or will the Green Party at the behest of Labour drop their “dogmatic” concern for the environment to get seats in a future Labour led cabinet?

    • muzza 1.1
      16 July 2012 at 7:17 am

      Jenny I think you can be sure that the money masters will have the parties, and individuals doing what they want them to do!

      • Jenny 1.1.1
        16 July 2012 at 9:18 am

        We will see.

        Democracy seems to be breaking out everywhere.
        If the Labour membership get the right to have a say in their leadership selection. Lobbyists for vested interest will find it harder to influence thousands of grass roots Labour Party members than a few dozen Labour MPs.

        • muzza 1.1.1.1
          16 July 2012 at 12:02 pm

          People have to take democracy back, then hang onto it, otherwise it gets taken away!

    • Dr Terry 1.2
      16 July 2012 at 4:52 pm

      Well, Jenny, the astonishing thing is that, though they are politicians, Green parliamentarians actually have principles – which hopefully Labour will take on board.

  2. Bored 2
    16 July 2012 at 6:52 am

    Whilst all eyes in NZ turn toward the latest little fiasco from a government determined to sell off every vestige of a state once internationally renowned for its care of its less well off citizenry, some of us have eyes elsewhere.

    Some questions about where the money really was going to come from and where it was going to go to (for assets etc) raised bigger pictures. Will any of this cash be worth anything? US$….what are they worth when the debt crisis arrives head on? Euros? Try this link http://www.forexpros.com/analysis/europe-continues-its-slide-toward-the-precipice-129581

    Shonkey might just be about to inherit a bigger issue if the banks where he holds his wealth collapse. We are all in for an interesting ride, think about how you will feed yourself if the currency supply dissappears.

    • AAMC 2.1
      16 July 2012 at 8:08 am

      As an extension, is the crisis in Europe all part of the plan of it’s Chicago School architect? Classic Shock Doctrine >> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/26/robert-mundell-evil-genius-euro?CMP=twt_gu

      We often hear the Right scare mongering around the supposed conspiracy around climate change to form a Global Govt, but hasn’t the right already achieved this through Corporatism and Banking, is the Builderberg agenda for a single Global Central Bank? Max Keiser on Press TV >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HU3EbWbUjs&feature=youtu.be

      If money is Power, and our Politicians and even Economists don’t understand how money is created, what hope do we have against the Banksters?

      • Bored 2.1.1
        16 July 2012 at 11:58 am

        If money is power…..you are so right. Having said that their is a paradox inherent: if debts are called in and cant be paid because there is not enough money what value the debt? And if the debt expressed in money terms has no value what value does the money have?

        That is the real risk for the Eurozone. The Emperors lack of clothes once exposed becomes contagious. The smart money rushes out to the US $….China gets nervous and tries to call in the money owed them by the US….the US$ crashes because their debts are too large and voila….

        If the money has no value then where is the power? If you cannot pay the states enforcers, then how can you impose your power?

    • Fortran 2.2
      16 July 2012 at 1:53 pm

      Reserve Bank fugures suggest that New Zealanders have $114 billion in Bank term deposits currently.
      Not far below our GDP.

      • Colonial Viper 2.2.1
        16 July 2012 at 1:58 pm

        That money doesn’t exist in banks.

      • mike e 2.2.2
        16 July 2012 at 5:03 pm

        Fartrain thats chicken feed compared to Australia which has 5 times the amount of savings per head of population than us

  3. Racquelsbro 3
    16 July 2012 at 7:29 am

    Any word of the deliberations of Te Labour NZ Council on the Leadership selection process?
    Did they “recommend” that the membership have a REAL say?
    Or did they give in to pressure from the status quo, don’t rock the boat, faction in the Caucus?

    The polls are shite for Shearer and Labour. Be honest.

    • just saying 3.1
      16 July 2012 at 8:41 am

      When trying to predict how Labour will respond, whatever scenario would be a bitter disappointment, sadly, almost always proves correct.

      I predict that the voice that is ceded to the membership will be set up to pose no real threat to the status quo, despite a considerable effort to present it as being significant progress.

  4. Racquelsbro 4
    16 July 2012 at 7:42 am

    Any word on the Labor NZ Council meeting deliberations on the Leadership selection process this week?
    Did they support REAL power for membership in the selection?
    Or did they back the status quo section of the Caucus that wants to have a veto over everything?

  5. Alotupper 5
    16 July 2012 at 7:49 am

    Any word on the Labor NZ Council meeting deliberations on the Leadership selection process this week?
    Did they support REAL power for membership in the selection?
    Or did they back the status quo section of the Caucus that wants to have a veto over everything?

    • ad 5.1
      16 July 2012 at 7:59 am

      I wonder how many of us still remember back to November, what it was like to actually have some say in the matter.

      Is it true that Grant Robertson and Claire Curran were on the phone to the Conference for the whole eight hours, and never let up once seeking to completely shut Party Members out of Leadership decisions?

      Perhaps they could come on the site and explain.

      • Carol 5.1.1
        16 July 2012 at 8:00 am

        ad, this bit of your comment needs fixing… word or 2 missing?

        and never let up once seeking to completely shut out of Leadership decisions?

        • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1
          16 July 2012 at 9:00 am

          The vote to reduce union representation to something meaningless was defeated, at least.

          The really bad news – I understand that the Right Wing of caucus will probably get their Fiji Amendment.

          If its a caucus only vote of confidence in the leadership (which can occur without members ever being told) the bar is going to be significantly and unfairly raised from a simple majority to 67%.

          So in future it will require a full 67% of Labour MPs to declare no-confidence in a current leader and trigger a leadership selection process. Put another way, if just 14 out of 40 Labour MPs voted for confidence, and 26 against, the leader would remain secure “with the confidence of caucus” behind him.

          Hence why its named the “Fiji Amendment”.

          • Jim Nald 5.1.1.1.1
            16 July 2012 at 9:07 am

            Perhaps the Right Wing of caucus should go and form their own party and give back the Labour Party to its membership.

            • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1.1.1
              16 July 2012 at 9:13 am

              And I thought they did that. It was called “ACT”.

              • fender …
                16 July 2012 at 12:32 pm

                “And I thought they did that. It was called “ACT”.”
                Some replacements sneaked in with the humans. Another purge is required.

                With the worldwide failings of right-wing agenda on show Labour should just concentrate on communicating their remedy, and stop trying to capture left and right with two faced bs.

            • Dr Terry 5.1.1.1.1.2
              16 July 2012 at 4:58 pm

              Correct, Jim – except that there should be no “perhaps” about it!

            • Vicky32 5.1.1.1.1.3
              16 July 2012 at 6:32 pm

              Perhaps the Right Wing of caucus should go and form their own party and give back the Labour Party to its membership.

              So, nobody but me noticed that these ‘questions’ about the Labour party were identically-worded mis-spelled (Labor NZ?) posts under 3 different names? * All seems a tad dogdy to me, but those who are heavily into Shearer and Labour bashing just took it all for, literally, granted!
              So, is it true, as someone here once told me, that most Standardistas are Greens? Does that explain all the loathing of Shearer and Labour? Cause it gets very old.
               
              * Similar behaviour making a pro-Nat point would have been noticed and commented on. ‘Nuff said! 🙁

          • Socialist Paddy 5.1.1.1.2
            16 July 2012 at 9:21 am

            And silly me understood that democracy meant that a simple majority decides things.

            Looks like caucus may be on a collision course with party membership.  The last time this happened was in the late 1980s and the results were not pretty … 

          • prism 5.1.1.1.3
            16 July 2012 at 9:33 am

            CV
            I don’t like simple majorities as a basis for change, after all the margin of error used in polls is about 2-3%. What about 55% being used as a ‘significant majority’ rather than 51-49.

            • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1.3.1
              16 July 2012 at 9:47 am

              Prism – we are talking about a caucus vote between 30-40 people. There is no polling “sample margin of error” whatsoever.

              I will add: there are 34 Labour MPs currently. A 50/50 majority system would create a valid result in an 18 to 16 vote decision.

              In a 67% majority system you would need at least a 23 to 11 vote in order to create a valid result.

              • prism …
                16 July 2012 at 10:05 am

                CV Agree. That sort of margin is a stumbling block against change and is self-seeking not open to the request for change from others.

              • McFlock …
                16 July 2012 at 12:11 pm

                But doesn’t that mean that if the leader has party but not caucus support, the leader will not be so easy for caucus to undemocratically oust?
                     
                Is there a separate mechanism for the membership to vote no confidence in a parliamentary leader? 

            • Dr Terry 5.1.1.1.3.2
              16 July 2012 at 5:01 pm

              A majority may decide SOME things but not everything – that is the method of dictators.

      • Jim Nald 5.1.2
        16 July 2012 at 9:03 am

        Oh dear . . . btw how well did each of them do in 2011 in their respective constituencies in terms of electorate votes and party votes? And how did that compare with their numbers in the 2008 general elections?

    • Te Reo Putake 5.2
      16 July 2012 at 8:00 am

      I smell troll (x 3).

    • prism 5.3
      16 July 2012 at 8:25 am

      That’s strange – there is the same wording of a comment from both Alotupper and Racquelsbro.
      Is Alotupper also Racquels bro?

      • glg 5.3.1
        16 July 2012 at 8:45 am

        No they are quoting from the same text, they just forgot to ‘put it in their own words’. Paid trolls.

        • McFlock 5.3.1.1
          16 July 2012 at 12:14 pm

          They did try, they just can’t spell “froth at mouth, blame c0mmies”

          • mike e 5.3.1.1.1
            16 July 2012 at 5:08 pm

            The spelling is Australian wouldn’t be surprised if it is from the centre for independent studies
            The right wing think tank.

            • Murray Olsen 5.3.1.1.1.1
              16 July 2012 at 5:14 pm

              Independent of any logic, science, thinking, study, or humanity, but not of the mining dollar.

      • Vicky32 5.3.2
        16 July 2012 at 6:36 pm

        That’s strange – there is the same wording of a comment from both Alotupper and Racquelsbro.

        There’s a no shit Sherlock moment! Bet you didn’t notice the mis-spellings though! Or too busy with today’s hatred? (Labour in this case)
         

  6. Carol 6
    16 July 2012 at 7:57 am

    RONS – a nice little earner for some…… but the money could have been better spent on public transport infrastructure for all.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10819888

    About $200 million has been paid to transport consultants for work on five of the seven roads of national significance since 2009.
    […]
    Labour transport spokesperson Phil Twyford told Radio New Zealand it was an “eye-watering amount of money” to be spending on consultants in the current economic climate.
    […]
    “$200m could buy a lot of useful transport infrastructure and services,” Mr Twyford said.

    Green Party transport spokesperson Julie Anne Genter questioned the impartiality of the advice given to NZTA by consultants.

    “In does beg the question of whether the transport consultants’ industry is actually giving advice that’s totally neutral or whether they’re recommending projects they know are going to result in more work for them,” she told Radio New Zealand.

    The continuing story of Joyce’s crony capitalism ……

    • Jenny 6.1
      16 July 2012 at 8:08 am

      I suppose it is marginally better that they are given $200 million for nothing. Than $billions to actually build their huge climate crimes.

    • prism 6.2
      16 July 2012 at 8:29 am

      I’m thinking of looking for a job as a speech writer for a polly. Gerry Brownlee questioned about the huge amount budgeted today for planning future motorways, emphasised that it was necessary to getting quality roads, and I think safety came into it. So predictable the waffle could be drafted by anyone.

  7. Bored 7
    16 July 2012 at 8:25 am

    Proof we humans are the stupidest creatures on the planet….some unfortunate guy sitting on a peice of fibre glass on the ocean meets a very large fish…Sharky is just doing what he has done for millions of years, and yes the gent on the board knew all about shark habits…unfortunate incident takes place.

    So far, an expected result, but then…poor Sharky must pay the ultimate penalty as we humans, masters of the Universe take revenge.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/7281230/Order-to-destroy-massive-shark-that-killed-surfer

    • Murray Olsen 7.1
      16 July 2012 at 4:01 pm

      Just after Steve Irwin said “Crikey, that’s a big stingray!”, heaps of idiots went out and killed as many as they could find. Given that he had labelled Howard as a warrior for the environment, his ghost possibly approved.

  8. felix 8
    16 July 2012 at 9:37 am

    Oh Dear. Not only is Rodney a climate change denier, but also a Y2K bug denier and an ozone hole denier.

    Never happened apparently. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10819582##

    Good thing he’ll never be allowed near public policy again.

    • Colonial Viper 8.1
      16 July 2012 at 9:44 am

      A know a large number of Y2K projects which never got finished in time. Or started, even. After the date passed, they all got quietly dropped.

      • rosy 8.1.1
        16 July 2012 at 9:52 am

        I think a lot of firms used Y2K to implement lots of IT innovation and quietly dropped it. I worked for an international firm that had a fair few programmers going through hundreds of programs changing the dates from 1999 to 2050 so they wouldn’t crash. A lot of money was spent on contingency planning but in the end the programmers did their job, as did those of other firms (or else software was upgraded).

  9. prism 9
    16 July 2012 at 9:48 am

    Carping on about the limitations of new workers by Auckland Employers group Campbell. And single parents were mentioned as a reason amongst others. The endless dump that the right wing make on females continues.

    Poverty is a large part of the problem which the right wing is making worse with more demands to be out at work that WINZ sets, rather than something that can be found locally, even a few hours a week working in the fruit and vegetable shop. Working and receiving less than the already pared down benefit makes life harder moneywise but also timewise. And teenage kids need care and discussion about general problems which then can move onto their own problems. If a solo parent has to be away at work for peanuts, then in this case you are likely to get monkeys.

  10. prism 10
    16 July 2012 at 9:56 am

    The Fonterra capital smoothing scheme TAF was originally considered a good idea, but later reflection meant that there is not the same unbounded enthusiasm. (Similar to the selling of our control over our essential assets by the government.)
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/7284022/Working-for-milk-price-only-a-farmers-nightmare

    A farmer in this item says that the old time sharemilking agreements are being pared down so that the worker and his cows receive less than before. In that case the enterprise becomes not a collaboration, but is a profit-sucking approach by the absent landowner at the expense of the heavy-lifter actually investing plus doing the work on the farm. This is worrying as it is a move towards the rich estate owner and always poor tenant farmer which our forebears tried to escape.

  11. marsman 11
    16 July 2012 at 10:04 am

    There is a photo of John Key on Facebook with a Moko, Merril Lynch written on his forehead and a dollar sign on his chin. Some negative comments about the use of the moko but most comments very negative about Key, some vehemently even violently so. Let him feel it folks!

    Here’s the link. Would be interesting to see it put up in The Standard.
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151110912624665&set=a.10150253486649665.365909.271524634664&type=1&ref=nf

  12. prism 12
    16 July 2012 at 10:27 am

    I think I will take a break from this blog as has been suggested for Pete George. I can count on him to fill up any gaps caused by my withdrawal.

    • Te Reo Putake 12.1
      16 July 2012 at 10:40 am

      I hope you don’t go, prism. I like your contributions, which are always witty and well reasoned.
       
      It would be particularly sad if you were going because Pete George has ruined this site for you, as is obviously his aim. It’s a shame that The Standard mods are too nice to simply ban him for turning the place into The Petard, rather than the left wing site it was meant to be. But I guess most lefties are tolerant to a fault.

    • Jim Nald 12.2
      16 July 2012 at 10:55 am

      Perhaps it would be quite appropriate, given the unique circumstances, to create an opportunity for the community of people who provide pieces and comments here to express support for the moderators of The Standard to administer a longer term ban on a certain commenter.

      I too feel that if the current situation persists, I know I will do the one thing I can choose, although with some reluctance, and that is to stop visiting this site.

      • Vicky32 12.2.1
        16 July 2012 at 6:40 pm

        I too feel that if the current situation persists, I know I will do the one thing I can choose, although with some reluctance, and that is to stop visiting this site.

        Nasty! Very nasty. First, you don’t have the balls to name the person you’re wishing banned, and then, why is it that you can’t tolerate even seeing disagreement?
        If you had half a brain, you could do what I do, and skim… (Te Real Putz, I am talking about you.)

        • fender 12.2.1.1
          16 July 2012 at 7:44 pm

          Vicky32 never gets nasty, even when outsmarted by QoT every other day.

          There may be lessons in nasty in “the book” that need to be studied again.

        • felix 12.2.1.2
          16 July 2012 at 8:08 pm

          It’s nothing to do with disagreement Vicky, and all about dishonesty. People disagree here about all sorts of things all the time. The strongest disagreements can often be between people who tend to agree on most things, oftentimes between people who are members/supporters of the same parties and organisations.

          That’s the real strength of this place. It can be a very effective forum for robust honest open discussion between people who, despite their differences, fundamentally share some common goals. Broadly speaking (very broadly) those goals are the goals of the (small ‘l’) labour movement and left wing ideas generally (did I mention it would be broad? 😉 )

          Obviously lots of other stuff goes on here too, and obviously the place attracts people who don’t share those goals. Some of them come for a bit of good-natured jousting, some to explore and challenge ideas, and some just come to fuck the place up in service of their own, very different goals.

          It is my opinion that no-one here is under any obligation to allow those people to define the shape of this forum. It doesn’t exist for their ends. Everything we want from this place, they come here to obstruct. Everything we build in the real world, they want to destroy.

          Fuck them, they can play elsewhere. Let’s use this place to share our ideas and experiences, to educate and learn from each other, to build our networks, and move toward those goals we share.

          /2c

        • Jim Nald 12.2.1.3
          17 July 2012 at 8:59 am

          For clarification to 12.2.1,
          the comment at 12.2 was in context and in relation to 12.
          The certain commenter was not named because the person posting 12.2 felt readers can do with a break without the name being typed out again.

          Re 12.2.1.2 “Let’s use this place to share our ideas and experiences, to educate and learn from each other, to build our networks, and move toward those goals we share.” – agree. Hence I am back. And I am making a cash donation to The Standard’s account when I drop by Kiwibank during lunch today.

          Dear “prism”
          Please continue posting your comments again when you wish.

          • prism 12.2.1.3.1
            17 July 2012 at 9:23 pm

            Jim Nald
            On reading your comment that you did not want to name the person all I could think of was Vold…mort! 😀

            And I too will put some more money into the Standard, a small amount but perfectly formed, when something is done to control Pete George’s verbiage. It’s worse than mine which is sometimes reprehensible, so get some steel Standard and make sure the kiddies are playing properly in the sandpit and no-one is dominating.

        • marty mars 12.2.1.4
          17 July 2012 at 5:39 pm

          “Te Real Putz”

          Are you aware of the sacrifices and struggle attached to getting te reo Māori recognised as an official language, let alone respected? Sure I am being precious but just think on the fact that your mangling of it to make a point hurts because it is only just making it through. I’d ask you to apologise but what’s the point…

          • Vicky32 12.2.1.4.1
            17 July 2012 at 5:58 pm

            Are you aware of the sacrifices and struggle attached to getting te reo Māori recognised as an official language,

            Of course I am! I am a linguist. My play on his name was intended not as an insult to the language (that being said, no language is sacred, and thinking otherwise is just silly.) but to the man, who is in fact as much of a putz as my late husband (and so my brother nick-named him. Google putz, it’s Yiddish)
            Welsh was brought back from the brink within living memory, and my grandmother’s mother tongue, Manx Gaelic, died in that same time. Maori is far from being the only endangered language, and in fact when I lived in Whakatane, my 3 year old son and I sat waiting for a bus, and we were the only people speaking English in the whole bus station! My point is, that in Rotorua when I was a child, and other parts of the BOP when I was in my early 20s, I was surrounded by native speakers of Maori. Therefore the ‘Maori is endangered’ people always seemed to me to be a bit precious and unaware of the status of the language! A language being taught to children by their parents, is not in any danger. Those who learn Maori as adults tend to be Pakeha, many motivated by guilt/pride etc.
            Apologise? Of course not. I have done nothing to apologise for.
            Os gwelwch yn dda, peidiwch â bod mor werthfawr prideful idiot! A rhoi’r gorau i addysgu eich nain i sugno wyau.

    • Carol 12.3
      16 July 2012 at 10:59 am

      I much prefer your comments, prism, to that of the virus that PG has become. Either that virus is totally deluded or lacking in intellect or is deliberately trying to sabotage this site.

      prism, on the other hand, is straightforward and sincere, and aims to further discussions and knowledge through his comments.

      • marty mars 12.3.1
        16 July 2012 at 11:10 am

        + 1 I enjoy your comments, perspective and humour prism

        • Bored 12.3.1.1
          16 July 2012 at 11:28 am

          Prism, please stay around, your wisdom and good sense very much appreciated, always a good read.

          Have to agree with Felix below re who comes and goes, you should stay.

      • deuto 12.3.2
        16 July 2012 at 11:35 am

        +1 to this comment and all the others. I too enjoy and respect your comments, Prism. But the continual hypocracy etc from a certain other commenter also from time to time drives me away from here, which is extremely annoying because the Standard is imo the best blog on the block – thanks to the owners, moderators and other posters here.

    • Pete George 12.4
      16 July 2012 at 11:00 am

      I’m sorry you feel that way prism, especially because you’re usually one of the better contributors here. But don’t you think it’s a tad ironic that even you are now joining the campaign to ban me, when I spoke up against this comment:

      All you filthy colonising white maggot scum can crawl back to the slums you came from now.

      Do you think that qualifies as satire?

      If so do you think it is reasonable satire, and helpful on the debate on water and race issues?

      I’ve often been accused of being a fence sitter, and not saying what I really think. Yet when I do speak most strongly I get the most criticism. But threats of banning won’t make me step back from this, I think it’s important, it touches on a very serious issue facing our country.

      I’m happy to discuss this with any moderator who wants to. But hey, if an engineered excuse achieves it’s aim, then so be it.

      But while I still can I’d like to say that it’s not me that stalks and abuses and continually tries to extend discussions beyond their used by date.

      The next comment is an example of where the real problem is on this blog.

      • Kotahi Tane Huna 12.4.1
        16 July 2012 at 11:04 am

        Pete George, you lying maggot. Quote the whole comment in context. What a low-life.

        @Prism, please keep contributing here – you always have somethng of value to say.

        • mike e 12.4.1.1
          16 July 2012 at 5:31 pm

          KTH well said Prism don’t let a little small minded Fwit stop you blogging here.

        • Vicky32 12.4.1.2
          16 July 2012 at 6:42 pm

          Pete George, you lying maggot. Quote the whole comment in context. What a low-life.

          If there was a report abuse procedure here, that’s what I’d do with your bastardly comment.
          Disgusting!

          • Kotahi Tane Huna 12.4.1.2.1
            16 July 2012 at 7:42 pm

            Thank you very much indeed, Vicki32, but please refrain from dragging bastards into it: they didn’t do anything to you.

          • mike e 12.4.1.2.2
            16 July 2012 at 7:49 pm

            Hey Vicky 32 look at what pg is saying and agreeing with on Kiwi blog his opinions at times are more venal and racist than David Garrets.

            • Vicky32 12.4.1.2.2.1
              17 July 2012 at 5:14 pm

              pg is saying and agreeing with on Kiwi blog

              I never have been to kiwiblog, but I will in fact do that! Thanks for the heads-up…

          • felix 12.4.1.2.3
            16 July 2012 at 8:35 pm

            Vicky, what would you think if someone started quoting you as calling someone a lying maggot? Without mentioning that that part of your comment was quoting someone else. Making it look like that’s what you were saying, which obviously you weren’t.

            That’s very close to what’s happening here, but instead of a direct quote it was the sarcastic finishing off of someone else’s comment.

            • Vicky32 12.4.1.2.3.1
              17 July 2012 at 5:18 pm

              Without mentioning that that part of your comment was quoting someone else. Making it look like that’s what you were saying, which obviously you weren’t.

              Sorry, I didn’t realise that is what had happened…

          • RedLogix 12.4.1.2.4
            16 July 2012 at 9:10 pm

            Oh dear … I’ve been too busy with work to keep track of this.

            First of all it was not really satire. Not even irony. It was simply meant to provoke a thought experiment.

            So far you can tell from the Maori reaction to this whole issue that they find John Key’s position pretty inflammatory and offensive. (As they did when Helen Clark was pushed into making a similar mistake over the Seabed and Foreshore… the difference this time of course is that Key has pretty much dug this hole all by himself.)

            Now you find my comment inflammatory and offensive … and yes on face value, this is true. Mea culpa. It was deliberately constructed to push Pakeha buttons. But also you now have some sense of how Maori feel when WE push THEIR buttons.

            However I carefully added another sentence which everyone else has understood as a great big fat clue as to my actual intent.

            And I should add that stripped of the offensiveness, there remains a core of truth. Like it or not the Treaty more or less reads that the iwi are indeed the legal ‘owners’ of all resources in this land. That’s what we signed up to for better or worse. Of course what Maori meant by ‘ownership’ and what Pakeha mean by the same word have two rather different meanings and connotations.

            Up until very recent times Pakeha have been able to exploit their dominant position to interpret this ‘ownership’ word as suited us. Which has consistently turned out pretty much the worse for Maori.

            Now the tables are turning and by adopting our own tactics Maori are forcing us to re-examine this cosy, convenient arrangement we have made for ourselves. So far they have been, by and large, pretty patient and generous about the whole deal. So all things considered you may want to think about how they might feel about constantly having their buttons being pushed.

            We know you don’t PG.

            • weka 12.4.1.2.4.1
              17 July 2012 at 9:51 am

              It is possible to read your original post and not have one’s buttons pushed. As Pakeha I didn’t feel offended in the slightest by what you wrote. People who were offended might want to reflect on why they felt that way. This is esp true for Pakeha who think that that comment is in any way close to being similar to what Maori experience as racism every day or for the last several hundred years.

              • higherstandard …
                17 July 2012 at 12:18 pm

                Can you explain how Maori have experienced racism every day for the last several hundred years ?

                Certainly there have been instances of racism, bigotry which are obvious to all and pre European settlement one could point to inter tribal genocides…. but racism every day for the last several hundred years….. surely that is not only hyperbole it’s just fundamentally wrong.

      • Pascal's bookie 12.4.2
        16 July 2012 at 11:09 am

        Your complaining would come across as more genuine if you hadn’t accused iwi of extortion, and failed to justify or withdraw the allegation. Hint: repeating it isn’t explaining it, and pointing out that you might legally be owed money if someone does something isn’t extortion

        Also, there was that piece from NZN that you approvingly linked to on friday, which implied that iwi claims for water were dangerous, and made all sorts of dark hints about the radical scariness of iwi caims, with warnings to the left about supporting them. As if it was the claims themselves that were the problem, rather than the backlash from people who don’t support honouring the treaty.

        All very odd behaviour for someone who claims to support honouring the treaty.

      • bad12 12.4.3
        16 July 2012 at 12:51 pm

        As the comment YOU express disgust at was a reply to something(s) myself and another commenter had addressed in that particular thread i can tell you that while it wasn’t quite the comment that got me to spit my coffee all over the keyboard it came pretty damn close, the sheer humor engendered from the expressed comment is only matched by at times MY actual thoughts of the (mis)treatment of Maori over their property rights since the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840,

        I have yet to see you provide any ‘helpful debate’ on issues of water (ownership) or how this can be successfully adjudicated between the signatories to the Treaty of Waitangi, those being the Tribes and the Crown and your present WAH WAH WAH as was described to you by another commenter over on that other web-site serves to simply distract from that debate in an effort to make the debate about YOU,

        While not seeing any reason to ban you from this site for your abhorrent ‘dissing’ of someone commenting here elsewhere, a blatant act of cowardice in my view, such a banning if meted out to YOU by those YOU have dissed in such a cowardly manner would be richly deserved,

        To drag the ‘take’ back to where the debate was befor YOU, in my opinion with deliberation, dragged it off topic as is your usual tactic, the original version of the Treaty of Waitangi was the work of 3 people, all of them Englishmen, Captain William Hobson, his secretary James Freeman, and, the British Resident James Busby,

        Those 3 wrote the English text of the Treaty of Waitangi and this was then translated into Maori by the British Missionary Henry Williams and his son Edward Williams, there are not 2 Treaty’s, just the one, the Maori version written as a translation of the English version by Englishmen,

        Where you and the other detractors of the Treaty of Waitangi attempt to muddy the waters with claims of differing meanings between the 2 Treaty versions there are in fact none,

        The intent of the Treaty of Waitangi is clearly written in plain English in the English version, and with regards to the present ‘take’ befor the Waitangi Tribunal Maori have every right and every confidence that THEY stand on the right side of both the Treaty of Waitangi and later Government Legislation in their stand befor the Tribunal,

        Section 9 of the State Owned Enterprises Act 1986 states, ”Nothing in this Act permits the Crown to act in a manner that is inconsistent with the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi”…

      • mike e 12.4.4
        16 July 2012 at 5:29 pm

        pathetic groveller you are an out and out racist redneck over on KB .

        • Colonial Viper 12.4.4.1
          17 July 2012 at 10:56 am

          Evidence please. Its typical of The Standard that its participants always claim to encourage honest debate when in fact all they actually seem interested in doing is shutting debate down in a somewhat immature fashion.

          My values have always been clear, New Zealanders expect a higher standard of politics and political discourse. Its why I’m actively involved in politics, and its why I always find innovative ways to contribute to my local community. Its disappointing that The Standard also promises this but in reality rarely delivers.

          I have always been confident in myself that I can help create change for the better. That is what I spend my time and energy doing every single day.

          Perhaps you could learn something from my centrist and community spirited example instead of repeating unimaginative vitriol?*

          *I thought you guys might be missing PG so just doing a bit of channeling this morning :mrgreen:

    • felix 12.5
      16 July 2012 at 11:11 am

      So now Pete is openly attacking author/moderators, both here and elsewhere on the internet, and yet for some unknowable reason we keep this turd and lose good souls like prism.

    • joe90 12.6
      16 July 2012 at 11:27 am

      The contemptible idiot has rushed off snivelling to anyone who’ll listen.

      They’re trying to Dim-Post me. They’re in a frenzy and will probably have a field day knowing I won’t respond. Showing where the real problem lies.

      If RedLogix – or any of the other brave commenters there – want to really prove their balls they can come and try their arguments here.

      • joe90 12.6.1
        16 July 2012 at 11:29 am

        I see you’ve deleted your wee snivel Pete.

      • Carol 12.6.2
        16 July 2012 at 11:49 am

        I don’t have balls, and no desire to try to prove I have some.

        I’ve seen enough of the racist, sexist and homophobic comments that are allowed on that site, to never want to go there.

        Why expose myself to that from people who see no problem in expressing such attitudes, and will not take any notice of criticisms of those attitudes?

        Balls? Really? That’s what it’s about?

        QED.

    • Colonial Viper 12.7
      16 July 2012 at 11:39 am

      I can count on him to fill up any gaps caused by my withdrawal.

      But only like bad panel shops use bog to fill gaps in poor workmanship.

      Hope you return soon prism.

    • Murray Olsen 12.8
      16 July 2012 at 4:10 pm

      Pete George should go. He only comes here so he can report back to his soul mates about what a great net warrior he is.

      • Logie97 12.8.1
        16 July 2012 at 8:51 pm

        prism, there are 32 comments on this thread commenting on PG.
        Prior to your entry No.12, he hadn’t appeared. But his very being
        generated 30 of those comments. (and of course I increase the count by one)
        However if you hadn’t commented, we may have had a PG free day.
        Just thinking …

        • prism 12.8.1.1
          17 July 2012 at 9:41 pm

          Logie97
          Your thinking is becoming convoluted as is all the traffic connected with PG. And that is the problem. I looked at the thread on Friday? as being like a hunt with PG being the fox or the bunny and everyone after him. I haven’t been reading him and tried ignoring anything relating to him but find that there’s often precious little else on his chosen thread, probably mostly Open Mike. Thankfully you usually provide something substantial between the puff pastry.

  13. Pete George 13
    16 July 2012 at 11:16 am

    In the interests of defusing this I’m not commenting here again today.

    • Dv 13.1
      16 July 2012 at 11:19 am

      Good.

    • Pascal's bookie 13.2
      16 July 2012 at 11:24 am

      Yes Pete, perhaps you should ride your high horse around and about in this thread:

      http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/07/general_debate_16_july_2012.html#comments

      there’s lots of racial animosty flying about in there, so have at it.

      • vto 13.2.1
        16 July 2012 at 11:35 am

        bleeaaarrgh…… That is yucky isn’t it. Just like a sewer. They are like a bunch of stinky rats who hide out in an underground sewer cavorting and chuckling away with each other every day without ever poking their heads up to see the sun.

        How is it that a section of the spectrum of society come to be this way?

      • Nick 13.2.2
        16 July 2012 at 11:47 am

        Last week I was up at Ruapekapeka where the last battle of the colonial wars in Northland took place. The Maori had shown amazing ingenuity in fortifying their position, the British showed amazing tenacity in bringing their firepower to bear and capturing the position.

        More amazing was the wisdom shown from both sides: Grey called a ceasefire and sent terms to the Maori. Kawiti’s reply was, “If you have had enough, I have had enough, if you have not had enough, I have not had enough”. Grey promptly declared peace, pardoned all involved and refused his sides request to hoist the British flag over Ruapekapeka.

        No such wisdom over at Kiwiblog.

      • Bored 13.2.3
        16 July 2012 at 12:06 pm

        Eeek, just went over for a quick look. I am now going to wash myself down for decontamination purposes, it is very unclean and totally unwholesome over there at Kiwiblog. Mr Garrett et al presenting cultural supremacist lines, puke. Totally nasty.

        • Murray Olsen 13.2.3.1
          16 July 2012 at 4:31 pm

          I think it’s really appropriate that Garrett has become the philosophical muse of those retards. Pete also lets his real thoughts out of the bag over there. Quite illuminating really.

          • weka 13.2.3.1.1
            16 July 2012 at 6:24 pm

            I think the fact that he went there of all places to complain RedLogix’s post says it all.

    • mickysavage 13.3
      16 July 2012 at 12:30 pm

      Enough of the passive aggressive stuff Petey.  All that we want is that when you clearly get caught out doing the trolly thing you have the decency to fess up and apologise.  You have now had the indecency of repeating the same smear three or four times not only here but at the sewer.

    • BillODrees 13.4
      16 July 2012 at 2:10 pm

      Deo Gratias
       

    • mike e 13.5
      16 July 2012 at 5:12 pm

      Make it permanent! pathetic grovaling again

    • Vicky32 13.6
      16 July 2012 at 6:45 pm

      In the interests of defusing this I’m not commenting here again today.

      I think it’s fair to say that I only skim your posts (along with those of some of the crazier nutmegs who oppose you) but I have also to say that I admire your strength of character!

  14. Pascal's bookie 14
    16 July 2012 at 11:48 am

    Bloody commun1sts at bloomberg, goddam lieberal meadia;

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-15/romney-s-bain-yielded-private-gains-socialized-losses.html

    If the last week has shown 1 thing in the uS its shown that Romney really is a shit candidate. Totally unprepared for the big leagues. He could turn it around, but at the mo’ he’s floundering.

    • Draco T Bastard 14.1
      16 July 2012 at 2:14 pm

      That’s a good summation of why you never put the RWNJs in charge of a country or a business. They destroy everything they touch for their own personal enrichment.

  15. Dave Kennedy 15
    16 July 2012 at 11:50 am

    A powerful new society has been formed to protect our natural heritage from damaging commercial interests and to do what the Department of Conservation should be doing:
    http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2012/07/save-fiordland-society-incorporated.html

    • ad 15.1
      16 July 2012 at 12:18 pm

      Lovely site and a real oxygen supply to those of us in Wanaka or Queenstown a lot and think the place appears as wall to wall Nats.

      Many, many thanks for this link.

  16. Pascal's bookie 16
    16 July 2012 at 12:04 pm

    haha stupiod hippys!! EVEN more real SCIENTICTS have come out against the globle warming MYTH and now you will be held accountble in COURT OF LAWS.

    http://bit.ly/NWyOMy

  17. joe90 17
    16 July 2012 at 12:09 pm

    Worried that your piss poor practices will come back to bite you in the arse?. No problems, destroy the evidence.

    The owner of Alan Reay Consultants which designed the CTV building has admitted the company destroyed its records after the deadly February earthquake.

    Perverting the course of justice?.

  18. Rosie 18
    16 July 2012 at 1:48 pm

    This article about research into the media portrayal of Maori makes sad but unsurprising reading

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1207/S00026/new-research-confirms-maori-news-is-bad-news.htm

    There was a time where I consistently watched Maori TV because I got so fed up with other channels’ interpretation of current affairs and also the because the inane content (celebrity culture, competitive cooking/singing/dancing/DIY etc shows )- was unbearable. Maori TV has great documentaries and films and and was particularly interesting, lively, humourous and insightful during election campaigning last year.
    After a while, after reintergrating TV3 news and other “shows” back into the viewing habits I became aware of how biased, negative and ignorant of the Maori world view our TV media is. I wonder how much Pakeha media news and views further influence those in NZ, and theres plenty of them,who already have an inherently racist viewpoint?

  19. Rosie 19
    16 July 2012 at 2:08 pm

    The Pete George bizzo. I am new to and irregular on this site so probably don’t have place to have a voice on the subject….but I wonder, if you just ignore him, won’t he go away?

    Nobody should feel they need to withdraw their presence on a site because of the words of another, especially when that “other” intentionally goes out of their way to be provocative and disruptive. Prism, if you quit because of PG (Personal Grievenace) then he has won. He’s only out to wind folks up and to troll.

    I always skip PG’s posts because they are just plain tiresome but do admit to getting invloved in a PG directed discussion ages ago about poverty, a reality he was denying existed. I admit to getting really annoyed about this and in response posted a youtube video of HomeBrew’s song “Listen to us”, about the harsh reality of life in for many in NZ and released prior to the election last year.

    Standard posters, would you consider just ignoring him? It could be an experiment. If enough people ignore him, he might just quietly leave………

    • Tiger Mountain 19.1
      16 July 2012 at 5:05 pm

      I just skate over his posts and really enjoy the occasional PFD (Pete Free Day) at the Standard. Used to think he was just a pompous even somewhat well meaning git, but hundreds of liteweight fencesitting posts later along with being caught with his ideological tweeds down at other sites, have confirmed the obvious.

    • Dr Terry 19.2
      16 July 2012 at 5:22 pm

      Rosie, you have got it exactly right – best simply to ignore him – reacting only serves to make one sound defensive. Best not to feed his delusions of grandeur.

    • felix 19.3
      16 July 2012 at 5:29 pm

      I don’t for a moment believe that he’ll quietly leave if ignored. I think that’s a misunderstanding of how he regards this place and the function he thinks it serves for him.

      But if everyone else wants to blank him, I’ll play. Got to be 100% though. Nary a mention. Not a syllable not a sound, not a mutter not a murmur.

      • just saying 19.3.1
        16 July 2012 at 5:56 pm

        I’m in. Haven’t been snared by Pete’s often passive-agresssively nasty, faux naive, self-serving twaddle for a long time. I’ve been amazed by the persipacity of those who have valiantly and patiently slogged away (in vain) with facts and logic in ever increasing irritation….

        He’s been sapping the energy of many of TS’s best and brightest when there are one or two important things happening in politics at the moment. Just saying…

      • Rosie 19.3.2
        16 July 2012 at 6:02 pm

        Go Felix.

        Like I said, I’m kind of new here so don’t know PG’s motivations and his style or how he would respond being blanked. To be honest I don’t pay that much attention to him and his posts. I just feel he gets far too much attention, and for god’s sake, I’m contributing to that attention right now by discussing his self!!! Sucked in!! Oh dear.

        Personally I’m just getting my head around the irony of moving into to the Ohariu electorate and the being on the turf of Te Hair. Seeing any UF, anywhere, especially on a good old blog such as this is makes me overlook anything PG has to say. Avoidance and all that.

      • Te Reo Putake 19.3.3
        16 July 2012 at 7:12 pm

        Yep, I’m game, though I may post the occasional DNFTT request with a link to this debate. As Lou Reed’s painter mate Donald might have once said: Stick a fork in his ass, he’s Dunne.
         
         
         

      • NickS 19.3.4
        16 July 2012 at 7:19 pm

        If I had the motivation I’d probably quite merrily troll him off the internet, which sadly is probably the only way to get him to stop his campaign of stupid, diverting posts that daily turn the open mike thread into a morass of dealing with him.

      • felix 19.3.5
        16 July 2012 at 8:41 pm

        I also like Bill’s suggestion downthread about how if you absolutely have to respond, just respond with a smileyface

    • Carol 19.4
      16 July 2012 at 5:51 pm

      I’m in the, just-ignore-him-and-don’t-reply brigade, also, Rosie. If I recall correctly so was prism.

      The problem is that others decide the best policy is to respond and not let him get away with spin, shonkey logic and misinformation. This effectively over-rides the ignore-him contingent & becomes frustrating when we see long strings of threads effectively hi-jacking discussions.

    • weka 19.5
      16 July 2012 at 6:34 pm

      Rosie, those are fine sentiments, but you are never going to get a consensus on ignoring PG (and it would need a consensus for it to be any use). People are here to argue, and PG provides prime fodder. Further, much of what he posts needs rebuttal, esp when he is playing games with this and other sites. It’s inconceivable that the hardcore here would let him post bullshit without calling him on it. Remember that there are exponentially more readers here than commenters, so it’s not possible to just ignore his posts when he deliberately uses the readership and popularity of TS to increase exposure to his ideas.
       
      The sad thing is that he really has far too much influence on what happens here. I can’t see any way out of that other than a long term ban.

      • Rosie 19.5.1
        16 July 2012 at 8:11 pm

        Weka, it’s ok, I wasn’t actually calling for a consensus on ignoring PG, just seeing what others thought about such a tactic to dampen his trolling activity Like you say, he has too much influence on the site, and to my mind ignoring him is a good way of reducing that influence. If the Standard’s moderators choose a ban, as you suggest then I’ve got no beef with that.

        I did it again. Talking about PG is akin to responding to him. ARRRGGHHHH!

        • felix 19.5.1.1
          16 July 2012 at 8:54 pm

          If you say his name three times he appears in your mirror…

        • weka 19.5.1.2
          16 July 2012 at 8:55 pm

          Ok, but say there are ten people here who regularly respond to him, and five of those decide to ignore him. He keeps posting, often taking post one of Open Mike each day, link whoring to his blog, dissing TS on other blogs, selectively misquoting TS commenters etc. The other five regulars can then also choose to ignore him,  but I don’t believe that that will change his behaviour. At the very least it is worth him dropping his blog link here, simply because TS gets so many readers. All that will happen is he will be free to say what he likes with no challenge.

  20. Draco T Bastard 20
    16 July 2012 at 2:42 pm

    Killing the Competition
    The truth about market capitalism and the fear engendered by it.

    • Carol 20.1
      16 July 2012 at 2:57 pm

      And given that state of US capitalism, maybe Dotcom’s Judge Harvey has nailed it?!

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10819927

      Judge Harvey is not due to hear the internet mogul’s extradition case until next year but made his views on copyright known during the launch of the “Fair Deal” campaign last week.
      […]
      When talking about how the TPP would affect copyright in New Zealand, Harvey said it could stop the practice of hacking around DVD region codes.
      […]
      “Under TPP and the American Digital Millennium copyright provisions you will not be able to do that, that will be prohibited… if you do you will be a criminal – that’s what will happen. Even before the 2008 amendments it wasn’t criminalised. There are all sorts of ways this whole thing is being ramped up and if I could use Russell [Brown’s] tweet from earlier on: we have met the enemy and he is [the] U.S.”

      • Colonial Viper 20.1.1
        16 July 2012 at 6:36 pm

        The algorithm for breaking DVD region codes and recoding DVDs as region free has been available for many many years now.

        The recording industry are such a bunch of no-hope dinosaurs for trying to regulate this away now.

        • weka 20.1.1.1
          16 July 2012 at 7:35 pm

          Apple say the warranty is void on their computers if the dvd region codes get tampered with 🙁

  21. bad12 21
    16 July 2012 at 2:57 pm

    In todays DimPost Labour housing Spokesperson Annette King again addressing the crisis in affordable housing, going so far as to state that the Accommodation Supplement is a direct subsidy to private sector landlords,

    Yes Annette your right and we all do need to have a focused debate on how affordable housing can be provided to all those who need it,

    Lets back-track a bit shall we, in Rogernomics we had the building of the new underclass and as this underclass was in terms of ability to spend those deemed most necessary by dint of income to be the occupants of the States low cost housing those up to that point who were the traditional occupiers of such State housing, those in employment at the rate of the minimum wage, were and are those who now shut out of State housing must rent from the private sector,

    It does not then take a mental giant to arrive at the conclusion that ALL the current problems of Housing are simply the problems of supply and demand,

    In other words, we have as a nation slightly fewer,(because of sell-offs), State houses with a population of 4 million than we had with a population of 3 million, address that anomaly with a comprehensive State house building program where the number of houses owned and rented out by the State is judged to be the correct amount when the number of those on the States waiting list for housing is ZERO and issues of affordability across the whole housing spectrum will diminish markedly,

    Labour only need look back in time to ‘see’ how such State Housing can be ‘afforded’ and this can be achieved simply by printing the necessary capital to complete the necessary building,

    Addressing the benefits of doing such, from lowering the exchange rate in favor of exporters by increasing the money supply, to positive employment and training and onto increased domestic economic activity are all known positive results from the State providing affordable housing to ALL that need such…

  22. Anne 22
    16 July 2012 at 3:35 pm

    Well said Rosie. There’s many readers who agree with you.

    I know there are commenters here who love razzing PG and sometimes it can be very funny, but on the whole he’s off-putting. I’m sure he is driving readers away from the site. He would go – eventually – if he was ignored.

    edit: damm. Reply to Rosie @ 2:08pm.

  23. gareth 23
    16 July 2012 at 3:56 pm

    There are growing calls for a wide ranging cross-blog discussion on the future of Pete as a commentator…
    If you can generate some positive and balanced discussion here I’d be happy to promote and support it.

    Suggested progress:
    – Involve all willing parties and any groups and organisations with an interest in the future of NZ political blogs
    – Open it to wide public discussion.
    – Gather as much information and opinion as possible.
    – The Dim Post seems to have a policy regarding Pete George this can be used to develop the debate further.
    – In time for next week have a commitment from all (willing) blogs on the future direction of Pete George as a commentator and a timeframe for dealing with it.

    Lets make it happen. Starting now.

    • bad12 23.1
      16 July 2012 at 4:02 pm

      ‘Laugh’, that sounds like we need to get together to discuss a potent political issue when the reality seems to be more a discussion on what seems to be the emergent talent of that one as the blogispheres Village Idiot…

    • Te Reo Putake 23.2
      16 July 2012 at 4:47 pm

      Ho ho, very droll. Peter Dunne has emailed me and he has this to say:
       
      It’s time for a cross party consensus on this vital issue that we in United Future have always been in favour of/never been in favour of/ Minister? Yes, please, John! (check box).
       
      As we said at every candidate meeting at the last election, in every phone box in the land from Taita to Churton Park, there are many Pete Georges and many ways of looking at the many Pete Georges, if indeed we can truly say that there is such a thing as ‘many’ or ‘ways’ Or ‘or’.

      And like our position on asset sales, our policy shows this to be true/not true/I’ve burned the evidence (check box) dependent on which way the wind blows. If the wind does blow, it will almost certainly ruin my hair and the ordinary New Zealander I represent (Dunne, P, c/- The Agreeable House, Consensus Drive, Johnsonville, you can’t miss it, its painted fifty shades of grey) wouldn’t want that and if I stand for anything, it’s nothing. Whatever it was/wasn’t (check box).

      Which I why I say, whatever the outcome of the Great National Debate on the Pete George question, Yes, No, or Hermaphrodite, I’ll still have a job.

      Thank you for your continued support and you can rely on me to continue to fight the extremists in Labour/National (check box depending on next election result).
       
       

      • Anne 23.2.1
        16 July 2012 at 5:14 pm

        😀

      • Tiger Mountain 23.2.2
        16 July 2012 at 5:29 pm

        Check/uncheck ’voice, it is all getting a bit ‘catch 22–ish’ really. Could be time to move on.

        If Pee Gee did not actually exist Dunny would had to have invented such a fine advocate for the more than once supremely low polling 0.0 (zero point zero) United future.

      • rosy 23.2.3
        16 July 2012 at 6:33 pm

        “And like our position on asset sales, our policy shows this to be true/not true/I’ve burned the evidence (check box) dependent on which way the wind blows.”
        This from PG Nov 2011:

        Asset sales are not United Future policy. If partial sales are a part of coalition negotiations UF have bottom lines. Full asset sales will not be supported (non are proposed anyway). Apart from that it depends on priorities in negotiations, and which parties are involved in those negotiations.

        Obviously it’s possible UnitedFuture may agree to partial sales but they are not party policy.

        I’m just gonna keep posting this if he ever goes on about UF being clear it supported asset sales before the last election. Otherwise I’ll stick to my position since around about then of ignoring his rubbish.

      • ad 23.2.4
        16 July 2012 at 6:37 pm

        Play of the Day to TRP 🙂

    • weka 23.3
      16 July 2012 at 7:34 pm

      Does the dimpost actually have a policy for dealing with PG?

  24. gobsmacked 24
    16 July 2012 at 5:36 pm

    Steve Braunias takes aim at Tariana Turia, and hits the target …

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/opinion/steve-braunias/7275998/The-Secret-Diary-Of-Tariana-Turia

    Ouch!

  25. gareth 25
    16 July 2012 at 6:11 pm

    I’m disappointed to see the same old pointscoring crap from both Te Reo Putake and Bad12 on this. Pete is one issue that needs wideranging cross-blog discussions – with open minds at this stage.

    Both have fobbed off addressing this now, saying nothing needs to hapen until next decade anyway. Except that many people who will retire next decade need to know what to expect and what to plan for.

    And it will take some time to discuss and work out how to go forward with Pete for the next half century.

    If United Future wins next election and Pete George holds the balance of power in the next Government does that mean nothing will happen until 2017? Not if I (and a lot others) can help it.

    • bad12 25.1
      16 July 2012 at 6:28 pm

      i am deeply hurt and will not be ever ever ever commenting on this site again in the next five minutes…

    • Tiger Mountain 25.2
      16 July 2012 at 6:31 pm

      Jeez gareth, get a grip, “If United Future wins next election and Pete George holds the balance of power in the next Government does that mean nothing will happen until 2017?”

      Well going on Pee Gee’s contributions here…..

      I have taken the pledge, no more responses to Pee Gee, if enough regulars do ditto he will just become scrolling pollution.

    • Te Reo Putake 25.3
      16 July 2012 at 7:22 pm

      Gareth, that is the most disgusting example of one way racism I have ever seen on this site, typical of the left and the moderators must act now. This is why I prefer Kiwiblog. And you haven’t answered my question in response to your question in response to my question about your question about why I ask so many questions. What have you got to hide?

      • McFlock 25.3.1
        16 July 2012 at 7:34 pm

        By the way, important quotes from random public figures and politicians are here. I take them out of context from Stuff, then raise questions about the acceptability of the opposite of what they actually said. I then confuse “inane bullshit” with profound rhetorical questions. Because don’t we all, at some level, want to help society as best we can? 

      • felix 25.3.2
        16 July 2012 at 8:23 pm

        I too am sickened by gareth’s behaviour on this site over the past several hours. And I’ve got a lot of support on this from a large number of readers who won’t comment here because of what they’re calling the “garethification of the standard”.

        I’ve blogged about it here: http://mynz.con/the-garethification-of-the-standard

        If gareth or anyone else thinks they’re hard enough they can meet me outside.

        • Colonial Viper 25.3.2.1
          17 July 2012 at 2:22 am

          If gareth or anyone else thinks they’re hard enough they can meet me outside.

          I’m really very dubious as to what you are suggesting here.

          • felix 25.3.2.1.1
            17 July 2012 at 11:25 am

            Perhaps it was a little too subtle CV. It apes a challenge made yesterday by the person who 5 of the preceding comments, including mine, are aping.

            • TheContrarian 25.3.2.1.1.1
              17 July 2012 at 11:29 am

              Hey Felix, glad to see you. I recently discovered we not only have a mutual interest but a mutual friend. He is a an old friend of mine but someone you know also. Hell we almost met not too long ago at a party which I only declined to attend at the last minute. Which is a shame.

    • deuto 25.4
      16 July 2012 at 9:05 pm

      If United Future wins next election and Pete George holds the balance of power in the next Government does that mean nothing will happen until 2017?

      But, but, but – will The Hair still be here then and will PG still be with UF…. ?

      PG only sees/saw UF as an opportunity for him to advance his opinions/ego/attention getting.

      PG on KB on 2 July

      Depends on a number of things. UF offers a unique opportunity…
      If some ambitious semi-independent aspirants wanted to fast-tracked themselves into a pivotal political position then there’s no better option, providing they can work from a moderate-ish/centrish base. All the basics are in place, all it needs is a few people to recognise the opportunity.

      Perhaps, the Hair also saw this and/or has seen through PG. See PG’s very specific disclaimer on 12 July here:
      BTW, as I have done for years I speak independently for myself here, elsewhere, and on my blogs, and not for United Future.

      http://thestandard.org.nz/dumb-or-dissing/#comment-492385

      This came out of the blue – nothing in the preceding comments on that thread to prompt this disclaimer.

      Like others here, for a long time I ignored him or gave him the benefit of the doubt as someone entitled to have a different view, but increasingly I lost respect for him in terms of his comments here and elsewhere, and increasingly he became a sore that could not be ignored much as I tried. I am a strong believer in people being able to have differing views to mine and to respect them for that, but I am human – and one of my faults is that I have a very low tolerance for hypocrits and users. A bit like an addiction – I will try to ignore him in future but will possibly need support!

  26. bad12 26
    16 July 2012 at 6:26 pm

    3News,

    Slippery throws in the towel, conceding that Asset Sales are likely to be delayed as it is now obvious that further court action will result from the Maori Council after the Waitangi Tribunal hearings end in Wellington,

    I think what the Prime Minister is saying is that the Maori council claims are likely to spend quite some time transiting through the court system to the Supreme Court,(depending on how fast the Crown wishes to roll over),and,given such a time frame He wont be selling jack and is highly unlikely to be the Prime Minister when the only logical decision on this point of law is handed down…

    • Colonial Viper 26.1
      16 July 2012 at 6:31 pm

      National will use this to take asset sales off the 2014 agenda, the spin will be “listening to the people and being responsive to true NZ democracy”, and take valuable campaigning bullets off the left.

      • bad12 26.1.1
        16 July 2012 at 7:15 pm

        From the look on Slippery’s face as He announced there may have to be a delay to Asset Sales He knows He and the National Government are fast running out of wriggle room,

        When the voting public realize that delay is Slippery-speak for no way as far as Asset sales go, then we really have a lame-duck Government dead in the water until the 2014 election,

        After having barely a week ago dissed both the Maori council for taking the claim to the Waitangi Tribunal and in turn the Tribunal itself and still having to face the Citizens Initiated Referendum over Asset Sales National have used up all it’s political capital generated from tax cuts,

        National are fast assuming that uncomfortable electoral position where the only possible way it can stem the tide of electoral support fast receding from it is to become overtly racist as did Dr Dullard the past leader of that motley crew with the Iwi/Kiwi campaign,

        I personally don’t think Slippery has the stomach for a campaign of that nature and while it might be slightly naive i do not believe that the New Zealand electorate will tolerate such again either,

        Besides all of that, National still have the Maori Party to keep happy,(which requires the odd pat on the head, and a 100 mill or so in the favorite slush fund),because if there isn’t at least 3 Maori Party MP’s in the next Parliament supporting National they will be relying on an unlikely act of God to become Government for a third term,

        The sky hasn’t quite stopped falling for the Prime Minister tho, we laughingly await the out-come of the decision on whether John(the convicted) Banks will be appearing once more in the District Court…

        • Bill 26.1.1.1
          16 July 2012 at 7:26 pm

          Or watch the excuse for financial woes shift from ‘the Ch/ch earthquake/recovery/whatever’ to ‘Well, if we had sold those assets…”

        • R 26.1.1.2
          16 July 2012 at 7:33 pm

          I liked seeing the circles under his eyes, the nasty nasty creature that he is.

    • Carol 26.2
      16 July 2012 at 7:03 pm

      Hmmm…. interesting:

      http://www.3news.co.nz/John-Key-concedes-likely-asset-sales-delay/tabid/370/articleID/261533/Default.aspx

      But, whatever Key/NAct does from here, this is a bit of a back-down from key.

      Interesting also to see Annette Sykes. I don’t think I’ve seen her on screen before. And with a direct challenge to Turia.

      • bad12 26.2.1
        16 July 2012 at 7:30 pm

        Aha, the Taki of both Annette and the Maori Council to Tariana and Pita is simply the Money or the Mana…

  27. weka 27
    16 July 2012 at 6:43 pm

    The worst thing about Pete George’s presence on TS is how it ties up so much of the good debate here. I think about what we would be discussing if we weren’t all arguing with him. Essentially PG gets to set a really large amount of the debate agenda here now. Which is actually pretty pathetic.
     
    24 counts of the word Pete (associated with George) on this page. At 116 comments that’s 20% of the comments, and it doesn’t count comments to/about him that haven’t used his name.

    • Bill 27.1
      16 July 2012 at 7:06 pm

      Just been reading through ‘open mike’ and yes, the irony of so much oxygen/energy being given/expended on a single commentator is quite remarkable.

      I had previously suggested that those irked by his comments simply ignore them. That obviously doesn’t work for some people. Granted, it’s difficult to remain silent if and when you feel provoked by stuff some-one is saying.

      So…know how in real life when an idiot or intensely annoying person insists on debating frivolous side issues and you respond to them, not with simple silence, but a smile of indulgence and pity that carries a thousand unspoken words and unverbalised counter positions? And you know how that tends to either render the irksome personage silent or throw them into paroxysms of emotive clap trap?

      Well. Strikes me that a simple 🙂 as the complete response to such commentators could work on a number of levels. Those who have difficulty remaining silent can feel that they have expressed themselves without fueling any ongoing nonsense (they are conveying the message that they comment is considered stupid or whatever and not worth responding to in any detail. Yet by acknowledging it’s been made and extending a token, as it were, of indulgence, they are being similtaneously utterly dismissive) And it ain’t so bad for other readers to simply scroll past a column of happy smiles.

      Just a thought. Could have been expressed better. But I’m sure you get my point.

      edit. Or instead of creating an smiley face, expree the indulgence and avoid confusion with generally agreeable indications of humour by typing “colon, dash, right bracket”

  28. William Joyce 28
    16 July 2012 at 7:29 pm

    Yet another failed National government policy

    • Colonial Viper 29.1
      16 July 2012 at 8:03 pm

      Thanks that was useful indeed.

    • William Joyce 29.2
      16 July 2012 at 9:19 pm

      This has the potential to be huge. Provided that the entities that paid through the nose on interest rates follow through on their threats to sue.
      Pension funds, hedge funds, even cities. Baltimore, Maryland, is threatening to sue.
      I don’t know if Barclays has the dosh. Still they could always go after the UK government. Maybe even John Key buddy “Timmy” G at the Fed.

  30. hush minx 30
    16 July 2012 at 8:51 pm

    on a different topic (although related to those earlier abour Labour versus the Greens) I see that Grant has put up his environment speech that he gave in Auckland last month. Cunliffe’s speech ran here and generatef quite a bit of comment so I thought it was only fair that a link to Grant’s go up too: http://www.labour.org.nz/news/speech-green-growth

    • Socialist Paddy 30.1
      16 July 2012 at 9:14 pm

      It reads like a Wellingtoncentric Public service analysis to look like you are doing something about environmental changes rather than a serious attempt to actually achieve something.

      It is pretty turgid.  Can anyone explain to me what this means?

      “We cannot afford the luxury of uncompromising dogma. Labour will not make the perfect the enemy of the good as we make environment central to our progress.”

  31. John Connor 31
    16 July 2012 at 9:01 pm

    NATIONAL social and environmental impact all over MSM

    LEN BROWN building Auckland in His name. loss of moderation

    failing to learn from history and all that jazz..

    if if dont fit, dont force it…

    If CUNLIFFE not leader then

    Antithesis to

    Joyce

    (equity)

    emotion , internal physiological motion, rises up
    brain tells “stories” about motion
    let emotion pass, write new story
    or
    breathe thru nose
    in counting 1,2,3,4,5 out counting five
    let thought carry on “by” awarenes and out of awareness, ready for new thought
    thought comes, thought goes….

    APPRENTICESHIP to learn
    not
    learn APPRENTICESHIP

    cOLIN McCrae “running with scissors in hand”

    MARX influence on future from Time of Telegram

    What are we teaching, what are we learning.

    Soul in Being human
    not in HUman Being

    little Faith Big thoughts
    BIG FAITH BIGGER thoughts

    Prostitution of Art beyond FACILITATION
    not feed many PEOPLE

    The strands of what WAS done
    may
    Be woven together in a new Korowai to shelter
    us
    all
    from The Storm

    I dentity politics

    Push/Push Back
    missionary
    Lead-follow
    Ghandi

    Have look round paddock
    Right wing whistle
    look around paddock
    think “Footrot Flats”

    Natural divisions
    natural geographic subsectioning into areas of interest
    CHINATOWN

    not “goal”
    not “try”

    Lurk around in angst
    rather than ask question?

    THE MORE WIDOWS OPEN
    THE MORE LIGHT IN

    (slogan not shouting;old skool)

    re MSM
    pebble-skimming issues
    all PEOPLE have memory
    cumulative memory
    though Neo-liberal Free Foreign Trade Capitalism (non E Asia, non Southern Hemisphere) not helping
    OPIATES
    irony
    “opiates” going other way.
    but

    neurological plasticity is for ALL

    consider intersection of psych and soc DEMOGRAPHICS

    replace values, jesuits and all that….

    LAW AND ORDER; Fin de siecle, sans romance
    Carpe diem

    KLEPTOCRACY
    open face, better faith,
    not
    “save face”

    Master of mask
    slave to deception

    an utterance so dark in brackets
    (hom-icide bomber)

    father
    not
    Father

    mother
    not
    Mother

    authoratative
    not
    Authoritarian

    baby-boomer parents
    “perfected”
    Authority
    hence mommies boys and former Bad-girls
    making parents PROUD
    “well aint you proud….is that how you want to look when jeeezus comes.”
    (generalisation, thats what learnt)

    small light small darkness
    darkness fears light

    applied “ideals”
    applied

    TradeMe
    gambling BUYNOW

    Tim Winton “Cloudstreet”

    Coro a bit of tram-wreck
    Coro normalized the mundane, the comedic and tragic.

    If GREENS consider immigration/migration/environment intersections/land-ownership
    may Winstoned Peters.

    rumbling
    tsunami

    slide overground underground
    underground overground
    seismic

    Time for aphorismic not plattitudinous utterances

    strategy
    ART OF WAR

    peace

    know opponent

    Be good hosts and do not ply guests with alcohol
    Abuse and Dependence might as well hit people on head with hammer and pour petrol down their throats.

    Master of adventure
    slave to escape

  32. Te Reo Putake 32
    16 July 2012 at 9:59 pm

    I mentioned the other day that NSW Labor was debating a motion to ‘preference’ the Greens last in their election literature. That could have meant the loss of some Green seats, as the additional votes (2nd preferences) of other party voters are needed to get candidates over the 50% line in most Aussie elections.
     
    That proposal has been watered down somewhat, in a gesture to the Labor left, who want to build a constructive relationship with the Greens.
     
    Next up; the by-election in the Victorian State seat of Melbourne. Currently held by Labor, but very much in play for the Greens. Liberal voters may even vote Green just to spite Labor. Tellingly, Julia Gillard hasn’t been invited to help out with the campaign, despite being a Melbourne federal MP herself.

  33. bad12 33
    16 July 2012 at 10:01 pm

    Thanks ‘Native Affairs’ for another little gem that i missed during the day, it appears that Crown Counsel at the Waitangi Tribunal under questioning today has agreed that for the National Government to even be attempting to sell off Might River Power in the face of the Crown’s previous admission that Maori do have (some as yet unspecified) rights to fresh water in river and lakes would put that National Government in direct breach of the Treaty of Waitangi,

    That along with last weeks admission and today’s admission by Slippery that Court action is likely to delay the sale of Mighty River Power just about makes it strike three and your out,

    Should the High Court if approached agree with the Crown Counsels admissions to the Tribunal and injunct the Government to stop attempting to sell Mighty River Power, National will be left with only 2 choices, do as the Court says or legislate away the Court decision and any implied right Maori have to fresh water,

    At such a point of such Legislation the emperor in the form of Slippery will find it has no clothes as to retain a shred of it’s electoral support the Maori Party will have to walk away from Government…

    • McFlock 33.1
      16 July 2012 at 10:08 pm

      For the first time in four years a malaise is slowly lifting for me – I thought that the asset sales would be the coup de grace to my desire to stay here.
        
      Now it is beginning to appear that shonkey tried to take a breach too far… 🙂

      • bad12 33.1.1
        16 July 2012 at 10:58 pm

        I missed the first quarter of tonight’s Native affairs,(even Duncan Garner makes sense on that forum),

        While there is no gloating about where the Maori Council claims have progressed to in the current Waitangi Tribunal hearings, there was stunned amazement expressed by the likes of Mai Chen and John Tamihere about the concessions from the Crown Counsel,

        Tamihere who i have far more respect for for His work outside of the Parliament then when He was inside the tent so to speak actually put the sum total of payments to the various claimant Iwi from claims to the Waitangi Tribunal into a grand perspective when He pointed out that when South Canterbury Finance went belly up the Crown were there in an instant writing out checks to the tune of 1.7 Billion Dollars while the sum total paid out to Iwi barely reaches a billion,

        Slippery may well have the luxury of ignoring the findings of the Waitangi Tribunal over water rights but Legislating away both an injunction from the High Court and the property rights of Maori as Helen Clark found out creates it’s own Taniwha,

        The State Owned Enterprise Act 1986 at section 9 says, ”Nothing in this Act permits
        the Crown to act in a manner that is inconsistent with the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi”, unquote

        Meh,even an escapee from the education system like myself can de-cypher that in 2 minutes, perhaps Slippery and the National Government Cabinet, like Annette Sykes suggested today, should at least study Law befor they go about the place breaking them…

        • deuto 33.1.1.1
          17 July 2012 at 6:46 am

          Thanks for the heads up on Native Affairs last night. I missed it so must watch it online today if it is available.

          The water rights issue is certainly not going away as Slippery would like and may well be his downfall …..

          Re the State Owned Enterprises Act, I may be wrong, but I thought that one of the major issues with the MOM Acts was that they take Mighty River Power etc out of the ambit of the SOE Act and its TOW requirements, and include much reduced TOW requirements, if any. I must check this out in more detail as its now bugging me. Perhaps someone else here know the details of this.

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