Open mike 17/03/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, March 17th, 2019 - 285 comments
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285 comments on “Open mike 17/03/2019 ”

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  1. cleangreen 1
    17 March 2019 at 7:55 am

    Power to our marvellous youth we are 1000% behind you as we save our planet.
    A site worth watching the action from around the world.
    Pictures from crowd rallies all around the world on this day 15th March 2019.
    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/buzzfeednews/global-climate-strike
    We are so proud of our young.

  2. joe90 2
    17 March 2019 at 7:58 am

    So, tRump regime forced-birthers were running a state sanctioned baby farming operation.

    https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1106746641736970240

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1106726897860440064.html

    • Sabine 2.1
      17 March 2019 at 8:24 am

      can’t have girls get pregnant while in their care as that would mean someone is breaking the law

      and besides, Betsy de Vos is highly invested in Adoption business and they need new meat.

      this is actually what women and i have been up about and we are still told its all ‘ pro live’. Cause women, and girls who are biologically advanced to get pregnant and have cesarians are nothing more then hosts to property of men.

      and these guys are here in NZ too.

      And yes, the logical conclusion is the removal of access to birth control.

      • joe90 2.1.1
        17 March 2019 at 8:46 am

        Apparently they were tracking not just pregnancies but girls’ menstrual cycles, too.

        WTF would they need to do that?

        Did they have some next level Josef Mengele shit in mind?

        • Sabine 2.1.1.1
          17 March 2019 at 9:46 am

          sexual assault is quite common in these camps and for that matter in camps for US kids too.

          https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hundreds-sexual-abuse-cases-childrens-camps-reported-across-us-cbs-this-morning/

          https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2018/06/america-is-putting-its-child-refugees-in-shelters.html

          https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/06/immigration-migrant-children-homestead-florida

          https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rights/immigrants-rights-and-detention/ice-detention-center-says-its-not-responsible

          besides it is also something that is done by the quiverfull movement to assure sex is for procreation.

          and besides women are defined by their reproductive ability, hosts for babies they are. We can’t have these young girls eve believe that they have a future besides breeding for god and country or god and master.

          White supremacy in all its ugliness. And yes, the current regime in the US is white power, white supremacy and racist to the core. They are not ‘economically anxious white working class male’. they are men and women who want to deny sexual education, sexual health care to women and they want to breed women for their own needs, to either provide white babies to stave of the white extinction or to provide future slave labour. Take your pick.

          • joe90 2.1.1.1.1
            17 March 2019 at 9:57 am

            And yes, the current regime in the US is white power, white supremacy and racist to the core.

            Current?

            The seed of Nazism’s ultimate objective—the preservation of a pure white race, uncontaminated by foreign blood—was in fact sown with striking success in the United States. What is judged extremist today was once the consensus of a powerful cadre of the American elite, well-connected men who eagerly seized on a false doctrine of “race suicide” during the immigration scare of the early 20th century. They included wealthy patricians, intellectuals, lawmakers, even several presidents. Perhaps the most important among them was a blue blood with a very impressive mustache, Madison Grant. He was the author of a 1916 book called The Passing of the Great Race, which spread the doctrine of race purity all over the globe.

            Grant’s purportedly scientific argument that the exalted “Nordic” race that had founded America was in peril, and all of modern society’s accomplishments along with it, helped catalyze nativist legislators in Congress to pass comprehensive restrictionist immigration policies in the early 1920s. His book went on to become Adolf Hitler’s “bible,” as the führer wrote to tell him. Grant’s doctrine has since been rejuvenated and rebranded by his ideological descendants as “white genocide” (the term genocide hadn’t yet been coined in Grant’s day). In an introduction to the 2013 edition of another of Grant’s works, the white nationalist Richard Spencer warns that “one possible outcome of the ongoing demographic transformation is a thoroughly miscegenated, and thus homogeneous and ‘assimilated,’ nation, which would have little resemblance to the White America that came before it.” This language is vintage Grant.

            https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/04/adam-serwer-madison-grant-white-nationalism/583258/

            • Sabine 2.1.1.1.1.1
              17 March 2019 at 10:16 am

              i live now.

              so the past is not to be forgotten, but currently the vulgarian shitshow in the US is a big influence, and the people working for the current lot, down from the president down to the little handlers are racists.

              So yes, the current lot, who is tracking the menstruation cycles of girls in their prisons are racist, they are sexist, they are the coming of the bible based white world they would so much like to create.

          • reason 2.1.1.1.2
            17 March 2019 at 5:30 pm

            “For the first few days of Trump’s presidency, Bill English fumbled around trying to get the tone right. When Trump instituted his first Muslim ban and cuts to refugee numbers, English was AWOL for more than 24 hours. When asked what he thought of the policy he told reporters that we were not planning on doing the same thing here. Guyon Espiner laughed: “It wasn’t really my question was it?”

            “In 2009 we also instituted a ban on new refugees from the Middle East and Africa, unless their family was already here. The government cynically framed it as an “opportunity” for family reunification. This policy has been in place for eight years and has led to a slashing of refugee numbers from the Middle East by half. It has affected those from Africa even more as we’ve cut our intake from around 200 people per year to, on average, less than 20.”

            ” as John Key used to say, a refugee is a refugee, and he doesn’t worry too much about where they come from. So let’s consider the raw numbers. Note that I’ve going to adjust these on a per capita basis to make up for the US’s much larger population.

            If we just take the refugee quotas on their own, Trump’s slashing of Obama’s quota by more than half – from 110,000 to 50,000 – brings them to just 15 people, per capita, fewer than us. Since New Zealand aims for +/- 10% of our quota we actually took less than the Trump figure in half of the years in the last decade.

            Refugee quota

            Bill English’s New Zealand: 750

            Donald Trump’s US, adjusted to NZ population: 735

            In a cynical move designed to make our tiny refugee quota look less like a Trumpian horror show, immigration minister Michael Woodhouse has started trying to include other aspects of our humanitarian intake within the official quota. …. ”
            https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/12-05-2017/is-our-refugee-quota-really-all-that-bad-yup-its-trump-level-bad/

        • adam 2.1.1.2
          17 March 2019 at 2:51 pm

          “Did they have some next level Josef Mengele shit in mind?”

          Don’t think you need the question mark at the end of that statement joe90.

          Reading/Watching what you posted, there is no doubt they were experimenting on people without their consent.

          • joe90 2.1.1.2.1
            17 March 2019 at 3:07 pm

            Consent?

            Their own citizens are routinely subjected to un-consented medical practices.

            • adam 2.1.1.2.1.1
              17 March 2019 at 10:00 pm

              Consent was the response to this type of experimentation being performed by doctors. It was the tool to empower and stop this type of behaviour.

              I’m guessing you don’t have a disability, or know to many people who have disabilities. So sorry to tell you this, but non-consent medical practice happens here all the time.

              But back on topic, the USA is the home to Eugenics, I’d recommend you read “War Against the Weak” by Edwin Black good introduction to the mentality of the doctors who will do all sort of experiments on people.

              So like I said you don’t need the ?, as this sort of stuff has been happening in the USA for a very long time.

              • joe90 …
                17 March 2019 at 11:20 pm

                I’m guessing you don’t have a disability,

                I do, actually. Arthrodesis/arthroplasty ahoy!

                But keep on guessing, sport. You do it so well.

                • adam …
                  18 March 2019 at 3:19 am

                  Yeap why guesses are generally wrong. Begs the question, you are aware of the breach of consent that goes on here?

  3. esoteric pineapples 3
    17 March 2019 at 8:05 am

    It was disturbing to find on my Facebook newfeeds a leading online 1080 opponent saying, just 24 hours after the event, that he was surprised James Shaw hadn’t been attacked earlier, called Eugenie Sage a c**** and describing them as unelected nutters. And just 24 hours after the terrorism attack, he was posting a page that is going around calling the Christchurch attack a false flag event, designed to represses right wing voices and encourage gun control. He even used the victims for his post against gun control by saying we should be respecting them by not discussing this so soon.
    The point of all this is that New Zealand now has a large number of New Zealanders, violent in words, if not action, who can’t be categorised by the standard white supremist profile. There are shades of this in facebook pages that call themselves things like “One New Zealand” and “The South Island Independent Movement”, but they range from hunters, some of whom believe in a conspiracy that the Department of Conservation plans to get rid of all non native animals in New Zealand (not sure if this is just on conservation land or the whole of the country), to 1080 opponents, to people who think the country is going to swamped with coloured immigrants under the UN agreement, to those opposed to any controls on cats etc, quite often with cross over between them. From what I can see, the 1080 opponents seem to be the most extreme amongst them and they have already committed violent action such as hijacking a helicopter at gunpoint. Apart from being disturbed by the fact that the James Shaw attack and Christchurch gunning seems to have given no pause for concern or thought to some of these people, I think New Zealand security agencies were slow to see the threat posed by white supremists and are only now going to take them seriously, but will be just as slow in taking seriously the threats of violence posed by other conservative groups. If someone is using threatening language on social media, then they deserve to be taken seriously. Not all of them will act out their opinions with violence but it only takes one.

    • Ad 3.1
      17 March 2019 at 8:19 am

      Esoteric you should call the Police and report this one.

      Some things will be cured with unity.

      Other things need enforcement.

      • esoteric pineapples 3.1.1
        17 March 2019 at 8:56 am

        I have thought of flagging it on facebook. The problems with posts like these is they they don’t say they are going to commit violence or that someone should. They “merely” incite violence by others by using incendiary language so I imagine the Police wouldn’t be able to do anything with it. I see such language and imagery against Eugenie Sage, in particular, all the time.

        • Anne 3.1.1.1
          17 March 2019 at 1:13 pm

          Might be better to report it to the SIS esoteric – or maybe both the police and the SIS. They probably have an email address for the public to supply information.

      • CLEANGREEN 3.1.2
        17 March 2019 at 10:15 am

        Ad, You said “you should call the Police and report this one.”

        Good luck with that as I did over a road rage incident last month and nothing happens at all in our experience.

        Not even a ‘cop car’ patrolling the road afterwards!!!!!

        • mpledger 3.1.2.1
          17 March 2019 at 3:30 pm

          Someone I know reported a car speeding and not stopping at a pedestrian crossing and it turned out that it came in useful to break an alibi. So yea, little things can be useful.

      • Wayne 3.1.3
        17 March 2019 at 11:25 am

        I agree you should report it. The Police may already know, but this is surely a time for zero tolerance.

        • reason 3.1.3.1
          17 March 2019 at 3:07 pm

          Zero tolerance was required years ago , and quite recently too …. when racist memes and divisive rhetoric ….. were laying the groundwork of justifications … for sick Martin Bryant types, and the insane evil that possess them …. and their diseased beliefs ….

          Cynical manipulative people bear a lot of responsibility … feeding paranoia and stereotypes for political gain ….

          pouring petrol into a minds burning with rage….. throwing myths like Molotovs with no care of who got burned … feeding the dehumanization that underpins racism …. allowing the easier killing of the target group of sub humans ….

          Recent examples of fanning fears and feeding sick minds with myths ….

          “We need migrants, but we don’t need leftovers from Middle East terrorist regimes,” he said in the 2005 newsletter.

          Mr English finished the spiel by saying the green light Labour had sent to the world would “certainly” be turned red by National.”
          https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/02/bill-english-we-don-t-need-middle-east-leftovers.html

          ” Jihadi brides ” ….. a snazzy way of specifically say female Muslim terrorists / suicide bombers … Federation of Islamic Associations president Hazim Arafeh said the comments were hurtful and painted muslims with the same brush as terrorists. https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/299191/no-apology-from-govt-over-%27jihadi-brides%27-claims

          Whipping up fears …. with 1000’s of fictitious refugee boat people …..tacking on an extra 6000km of ocean travel in leaky tubs and sailing for our shores … perhaps helping nutty gun club members grow nutty beliefs …. like their military style weapons will defend ( white ) new Zealand.

          I feel very very sorry for the Christchurch victims …. as many were asylum seekers or refugees who had already suffered greatly …. many having fled violence destruction and extremism … that we have helped visit upon them….. for decades.

          Victim blaming of refugees is not a left right issue ….. more a murderers and warmongers Modus-Operandi

          Hillary Clinton , “believes that the rise of right-wing populism in Europe and the United States was the fault of immigration policies that let in too many Syrian refugees, and encouraged racist and xenophobic views to take over politics and push out moderates, such as herself.”

          “I think Europe needs to get a handle on migration because that is what lit the flame,” she told The Guardian. ”

          “Yes, people fleeing indiscriminate US/Euro bombing of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Pakistan, Somali, & Yemen “lit the flames”—not the mass murder of brown ppl ” https://twitter.com/MuslimIQ

          • patricia bremner 3.1.3.1.1
            17 March 2019 at 4:56 pm

            Victim blaming as usual. Some personal soul searching would not go astray for those entitled folk. Perhaps sadly they lack the capacity to empathise??

    • Sabine 3.2
      17 March 2019 at 8:27 am

      Rush Limbough and some evangelics priest and others in the state have already called the Christchurch massacre a false flag.

      It will get worse.

      I don’t watch vidoes of violence ever, i don’t see a reason for it, but sometimes i think we need to see the videos and if it is only to show a. it happened, and b. its devastating, and c. shut up you wingers who want to pretend that you don’t grow these nuts on your shitty piles of ideas.

      Report this post to fb and police if you fear for the wellbeing of others.

      • Molly 3.2.1
        17 March 2019 at 11:50 am

        I read the 4chan thread earlier on when the news was breaking, and looking at timestamps, that meme was already being sown while the incident was occurring.

        As Paul Buchanan said, some were actively – and anonymously – cheerleading, however there were a couple of posters that were shocked out of their complacency and appalled.

        The theme of ‘us’ and ‘them’ is always divisive and destructive.

        • joe90 3.2.1.1
          17 March 2019 at 12:13 pm

          that meme was already being sown while the incident was occurring

          The fucker knew how the system works.

          In his scrawlings and livestream he name-dropped popular youtubers, conservative pundits and white supremacist memes and bingo, the algorithms that tech giants tout as gate keepers did the rest.

          One recommended video, at a time he gained an audience. Viral AF.

          • Sabine 3.2.1.1.1
            17 March 2019 at 12:16 pm

            the fucker lived in this system.
            the fucker is supported by this system.
            the fucker is the system.

            it is us who know nothing about this shit.
            It is us who still pretend that we can go back to earlier days and pretend this shit does not happen.
            it is us who need to grow the guts to call it out every single time.

            and it is us who should want to know the name and face of the fucker, who should want the manifesto discussed by our polititians, opinion makers, tv personalities, radio talk back shit hosts and the likes.

            cause this is not going to stop any time soon.

          • Molly 3.2.1.1.2
            17 March 2019 at 12:37 pm

            Didn’t watch the videos because I didn’t want to be a voyeur on such desecration, and also didn’t want to be – however incrementally – a participant in such a violent act when it would only be for personal curiosity.

            I feel for those in authority, and for the family members who may be compelled to view it.

    • dv 3.3
      17 March 2019 at 9:17 am

      There should be 3 small dots to the right on the heading of the post. Gives a drop down menu which allows feed back on post like nudity, hate speech violence etc

    • alwyn 3.4
      17 March 2019 at 9:27 am

      “posed by other conservative groups”.
      Why on earth do you call people like this murderer “conservatives”?
      About the only thing people can agree about him is that he is a white supremacist.
      After all you only have to look at his own manifesto to see he could be almost anything.
      He denies any interest or approval in Conservatism.
      He claims that he is best described as an Eco-terrorist.
      His favourite Government is that of the PRC.
      I would think one could just as readily describe him as a hard left member of the Sea Shepherd Organisation.
      Whatever he is however, his main characteristic is that he is Evil.
      Can we just settle for that and stop smearing other people with claims that they are the same as he is?

      • Sabine 3.4.1
        17 March 2019 at 9:48 am

        because they identify as conservative.
        simple as.

        • alwyn 3.4.1.1
          17 March 2019 at 11:39 am

          Well this nutcase maniac didn’t identify as that. In fact he explicitly denied it, at least in the first part of his “manifesto”.
          I didn’t read it all. I didn’t feel up to reading the whole of it. Why pin him on to people you don’t like when they really aren’t the same as he is?

          • Sabine 3.4.1.1.1
            17 March 2019 at 11:55 am

            because funnily and maybe hard for you to accept but the liberals don’t advocate for white power, don’t advocate for white women to stop taking the pill and to start having babies to ‘save the culture and heritage of white people’, we don’t advocate that all Muslims are bad, that all brown people are lazy, that all single women are dole bludgers to have children for money etc etc etc.

            These are literally the things that right wingers, right polititians, right clergy, right opinion makers, right writers and the likes make.

            And they consider themselves conservatives.

            As for the manifesto, he said a lot of things. Right? He revered to Donald Trump as an inspiration for the white movement (not his policymaking but his support for the white race), he revered to Candance Owens (who while black has a lot to say about ‘white people need to breed or else france is gonna be muslim in 40 years), and guess what, these people consider themselves CONSERVATIVE.

            Maybe you need to find a new movement honey, one that is not going on batshit crazy.

            • alwyn 3.4.1.1.1.1
              17 March 2019 at 12:07 pm

              What utter rubbish.
              A genuine Conservative certainly doesn’t follow your fanciful description of beliefs.
              By your reasoning I suppose we could describe you as a Genocidal maniac.
              Lefties of course include such people as Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot.
              They were certainly worthy of that description weren’t they?
              Given that you also seem to consider yourself to be of the left do you also think you qualify for that description?

              However back to the subject. The perpetrator of this crime doesn’t qualify as anything better than a maniac. Not insane. He knew exactly what he was doing. To try and smear any normal person by equating them to this monster is disgusting.

              • adam …
                17 March 2019 at 3:05 pm

                Lets not forget your side ah alwyn – Hitler, Pinochie, Mussolini, Quisling, Marcos, and let’s not forget the guy who performed the first genocide in the 20th century Atatürk. Funny how the right wing throw around the same totalitarian nuts over and over, with the majority of the left hate probably even more than you.

                And you won’t own that one of yours who took the ideas you support to an extreme and created a killer, a murder.

                P.S he’s not crazy – he an ideolog. Which is a criticism I’ve thrown at many who write on the right on this site – you included. Stop going for an out and start being honest, is it to much to ask?

                • Grant …
                  18 March 2019 at 1:18 am

                  Got a citation for Ataturk committing genocide?

                    • Grant …
                      18 March 2019 at 9:19 am

                      I don’t see anything in your citation that makes Kemal Ataturk responsible in any significant way for the Armenian genocide. My understanding is that he was a mid ranking officer (lieutenant colonel) in 1915 and his primary responsibility was for the Dardanelles campaign (Gallipoli). Can you explain how he took time off from that to organise and prosecute the Armenian genocide?

      • arkie 3.4.2
        17 March 2019 at 11:14 am

        You are already running diversion. You are misrepresenting what was written. He idolised Oswald Mosely, the British Fascist. As well as the terrorist Brevik who also murdered Labour party aligned children to ‘stop islamic immigration.’

        What is a white-supremacist? A fucking nazi! That tells you all you need to know.

        If you feel the need to smear Sea Shepard as just as likely to be murdering innocent people then that says all we need to know about you.

        • Dennis Frank 3.4.2.1
          17 March 2019 at 11:39 am

          Sir Oswald (he inherited his knighthood as a member of the aristocracy). He was elected as a Labour MP in 1926 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Mosley). We need to keep a close eye on Labour parliamentarians: history proves how slippery they can be!

        • alwyn 3.4.2.2
          17 March 2019 at 11:46 am

          “If you feel the need …..”.
          I didn’t actually. I merely said that to accuse him as being as supporting such a group would actually be, on what the arse-hole says, a great deal more likely to be true than that he is a “Conservative”. That is a perfectly respectable viewpoint and does not deserve to be used for this swine.

          • arkie 3.4.2.2.1
            17 March 2019 at 12:04 pm

            Conservative = right-wing

            White-supremacy = right-wing

            This was a right wing terrorist attack.

            You and BM and other righties attempting to reference the manifesto to say the terrorist is ‘far-left’ or a ‘full-on socialist’ shows your sickening lack of sensitivity and a terrifying willingness to equivocate in defense of terrorism.

            • alwyn 3.4.2.2.1.1
              17 March 2019 at 12:13 pm

              As I proposed to Sabine.

              Communism = left wing.
              Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot = Communism.
              Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot = Genocidal Maniacs.

              Arkie = left wing.
              Therefore Arkie = Genocidal Maniac.
              That argument is, of course, rubbish.
              Just like your attempt to smear anyone who describes themselves as a Conservative as being just like this truly evil person.

              • arkie …
                17 March 2019 at 12:27 pm

                See, my arguement is, I can accept and condemn the genocides of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot; I can accept that their ideology had some things in common with my part of the political spectrum and I can use these as lessons of what is wrong with those parts and work to counter their re-emergence.

                You and your ilk, however, use what-about-ism and equivocation instead of owning the part of shared ideology between conservative thought and those of this ‘truly evil person’. Own those ideas, then reject them, and the right-wing would be better for it.

                • RedLogix …
                  17 March 2019 at 2:28 pm

                  In general it’s my sense the opposite is true. No-one serious on the right has anything to do with Nazi’s or white supremacist extremists. You only have to look at the immediate and widespread condemnation of Senator Anning from their very conservative PM on downward to see a very proximate example.

                  It’s been like this since the Nuremberg Trials.

                  By contrast the left seems to have a lot more trouble with drawing it’s boundaries. Which is not surprising since it’s not our temperament to do so as a rule.

                  • arkie …
                    17 March 2019 at 2:36 pm

                    More what-about-ism, equivocation and denial of reality.

                    Your senses are obviously not serving you well Red. The hysterical professor, Jordan Peterson’s are evidently failing him too.

                    How do we change?

                    Some of this comes from confronting the worst parts of ourselves. How could this happen here? We know, deep down, that our culture is permissive of casual racism. We have seen the influence of mainstreamed right-wing rhetoric creeping into our communities, our workplaces and families.

                    • marty mars …
                      17 March 2019 at 2:49 pm

                      + 1 I’m supporting you arkie because you are correct. Sad types on this sub thread show their inadequacies and their weakness by using all the tricks in the book to deflect from the truth they cannot bear.

                    • Bewildered []
                      17 March 2019 at 3:18 pm

                      Current left wing rebel/ terror organisations who have no qualms in killing innocent people, all ideaologies and religions have their nutters and extremist, don’t kid yourself otherwise Marty ( source Wikipedia)

                      [There follows a great big long list of names, which take up a hell of lot of space, when a link would have sufficed. Edited out. TRP]

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 March 2019 at 3:00 pm

                      I can accept that their ideology had some things in common with my part of the political spectrum and I can use these as lessons of what is wrong with those parts and work to counter their re-emergence.

                      In the decade or so I’ve participated here, I think that really is one of very, very few time I’ve seen a left winger state something like that in such clear terms. Sincerely I’m impressed; what you say there is a vital point that usually gets a lot of blowback and resistance around here.

                      Nor are my senses failing me when I can link to Scott Morrison:

                      Prime Minister Scott Morrison on Saturday announced the Coalition and Labor would pass a motion when Parliament returns next month, censuring Senator Anning for the statement he issued on Friday that linked the Christchurch mosque attacks to immigration.

                      “I would normally not want to give this any oxygen, but I want to absolutely and completely denounce the statements made by Senator Anning … on this horrendous terrorist attack, with issues of immigration, in his attack on Islamic faith specifically,” Mr Morrison said.

                      https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-16/fraser-anning-egged-in-melbourne-while-speaking-to-media/10908650

                      The ABC is an excellent public broadcaster, and has been doing some good work covering this tragedy:

                      https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-17/christchurch-attacks-stark-warning-of-toxic-hate-flourishing/10909394

                      https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-17/christchurch-shootings-brenton-tarrant-social-media-strategies/10908692

                      https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-17/christchurch-shooting-war-of-identity-victims-neighbours/10908508

                    • solkta …
                      17 March 2019 at 3:04 pm

                      I’ve seen a left winger state something like that in such clear terms.

                      I think most of us on the left don’t feel the need to state the fucking obvious.

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 March 2019 at 3:13 pm

                      @ marty

                      I’ve seen you pull that indirect speaking trick over and over. It’s kind of obvious. It’s not me exploiting this event to further your own identitarian agenda, it’s you.

                      But I’ll draw your attention to the excellent Stan Grant:

                      We are all potentially prey to the war of our time: the war of identity.

                      It is identity forged out of resentment and a thirst for vengeance. It is identity that draws its narrative from the old festering hatreds of history.

                      It is identity that pits us against each other; that divides us into our tribes.

                      It is a 21st-century law of the jungle: something deeply primal; that leads us to tear each other limb from limb.

                      Look around our world, we are putting up new walls; we are militarising our borders; we fear the stranger and retreat into old certainties and closed communities.

                      It is fuelling populism and resurgent authoritarianism. Political demagogues and their acolytes on the left and the right are feeding on what the Indian writer, Pankaj Mishra, has called “the age of anger”.

                      This is the world sketched by American lawyer and academic, Amy Chua, in her book Political Tribes.

                      Professor Chua traces how the politics of toxic identity is remaking our world.

                      https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-17/christchurch-shooting-war-of-identity-victims-neighbours/10908508

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 March 2019 at 3:16 pm

                      @soltka

                      I think most of us on the left don’t feel the need to state the fucking obvious.

                      Good, now why would anyone imagine those on the right would feel much different.

                    • arkie …
                      17 March 2019 at 3:29 pm

                      @Red

                      I think most of us on the left don’t feel the need to state the fucking obvious.

                      Good, now why would anyone imagine those on the right would feel much different.

                      Because those some of those on the right keep saying this terrorist is a ‘full-on socialist’; because they keep equivocating and denying knowledge of growing amount of right-wing violence; because of their refusal to acknowledge anything can be done by society to rectify this tacit support for these ideologies; and it goes on.

                    • marty mars …
                      17 March 2019 at 3:34 pm

                      @ red – another distraction- anything’s better than fronting up I see.

                    • solkta …
                      17 March 2019 at 3:36 pm

                      @red

                      What arkie said.

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 March 2019 at 3:46 pm

                      @ arkie

                      Because those some of those on the right keep saying this terrorist is a ‘full-on socialist’;

                      Yes I saw that. You and marty want me to ‘front up’. Well if Stan Grant’s plain words are beneath your high virtue, how about this:

                      So what does Peterson actually believe? He has consistently defended the moral position that the “individual is sovereign over the group,” a unique feature of Anglo-American political theory and practice that holds that citizens hold their rights against the state rather than through it, which is inscribed into our founding documents, and helps to account for the remarkable capacity of societies built around its doctrines to accommodate high levels of diversity while remaining democratic. The underlying sovereignty of individuals forces state power to operate against a hard constraint that limits coercion, and gives individuals the means by which to push back.

                      This position is not a “centrist” position between the poles of alt-right and the identity politics of the left, but a distinct position orthogonal to both. It rejects group identity as the foundation of politics in favor of strengthening the individual as a bulwark against what Peterson calls “ideological possession”—the temptation to subordinate the various ends of life into a contest for group dominance. Peterson sees the emergence of identity politics on both the right and left as a single phenomenon, with each pole feeding the growth of the other, as individuals lost amidst the chaos of contemporary life turn to ideologies providing simple solutions to complex questions, a corresponding set of friends—and a corresponding set of enemies.

                      How anyone who has spent a single afternoon on Twitter can doubt that these polarizing group psychological dynamics exist—and explain the growth of political extremism at a time of relative prosperity—is frankly perplexing to me.

                      https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/262280/jordan-peterson

                    • arkie …
                      17 March 2019 at 4:06 pm

                      @Red

                      And yet the Hysterical Professor recently spoke at the Turning Point USA Student Action Summit; https://www.tpusa.com/sas/

                      Another speaker was Candace Owens, who was referenced in the terrorist’s manifesto as an inspiration. This was her response:
                      https://twitter.com/RealCandaceO/status/1106391443457888257

                      Not even a single tweet condemning the terrorist.

                      Back more directly to JBP

                      You and others can say the Professor isn’t right-wing but his choice of associates, at the very least, says otherwise.

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 March 2019 at 4:24 pm

                      @arkie

                      Peterson is clearly a moderate right winger, with a small but stubborn streak of libertarian in him. He’s no friend of the alt-right, and has condemned ethno-nationalism in many, many talks. In others he has given detailed explanations of the psychological impulse behind right wing authoritarianism:

                    • arkie …
                      17 March 2019 at 4:35 pm

                      @Red

                      If he is no friend of the alt-right he should perhaps stop talking at their events, and associating with their public figures then.

                      In any case, JBP is historically clueless, needlessly opaque, doesn’t understand Post-Modernism or Marxism while continuing to opine at length on them. He commonly refers to the ‘Cultural Marxism’ conspiracy theory (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism) which is lifted directly from Nazi terminology Cultural Bolshevism. I could go on.

                      So if, as you say, he is clearly a moderate right-winger, then perhaps you can see why we who are opposed to fascism, find the right-wing and their behaviour to be so alarming.

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 March 2019 at 4:57 pm

                      @ arkie

                      I’m no friend of the radical identitarian left either, but I associate here.

                      Anyhow give the video above a shot; it’s only 12min and JP won’t hurt your brain all that much.

                    • arkie …
                      17 March 2019 at 5:06 pm

                      @Red

                      Ah, so we still haven’t reached the bottom of the depths of your equivocation yet.

                      I have already consumed plenty of Hysterical Professors ramblings. And you still aren’t fronting up.

                      Who would you characterise here as radical identitarian left then?

                      And while we’re using that terminology could you perhaps mean this group?

                      The identitarian movement or identitarianism is a European and North American far-right and white nationalist movement that originated in France.

                      The movement is also a part of the counter-jihad movement, with many adherents espousing the white genocide conspiracy theory.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identitarian_movement

                      On the left the terminology is usually Identity Politics Warrior or SJW. Would you like to try again?

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 March 2019 at 5:23 pm

                      @arkie

                      It’s not so much that I need to ‘try again’, but that you missed it the first time. Still in good faith I’ll give it another go.

                      Up above at 3:46pm I quoted a Jewish writer, “Peterson sees the emergence of identity politics on both the right and left as a single phenomenon, with each pole feeding the growth of the other”. It’s actually an idea I was tentatively exploring here some years back, long before anyone heard of JP, but this guy puts it more eloquently.

                      So in answer to your question, fundamentally I don’t see any real difference left and right wing identity politics, both are as bad as each other, although it gets expressed in different ways. What they both share in common though is “the temptation to subordinate the various ends of life into a contest for group dominance.”

                    • arkie …
                      17 March 2019 at 5:38 pm

                      @Red

                      I couldn’t care less what some writer says about the Hysterical Professor. He, and you didn’t come up with Horseshoe theory.
                      https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

                      I’m rejecting your assertion that there is something equivalent between this right-wing terrorist attack and left-wing social justice movements.

                      But you should probably try good faith again cos you’ve been applying it to the wrong people.

                      Always trying to find a ‘centre’ has lead to you listing heavily towards the side of murderous fascists.

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 March 2019 at 5:52 pm

                      @ arkie

                      If you don’t care less, then what are you doing here? Because you sure don’t act as if you don’t care. Which is a good thing I think, caring is important.

                      I’ve taken a quick skim through your link, and yes it makes some interesting reading, making points both ways for the idea. I wasn’t of course claiming any kind of originality, that’s virtually impossible in the modern world, but it was something I clearly sensed for myself here at TS as the years went by.

                      We used to have a character called “Redbaiter” around here. These days he wouldn’t last 10 minutes without getting a ban, but back then you really had to be overtly offensive to get moderated. Besides Redbaiter was well read and could make a ding dong argument. Essentially he held to an extreme libertarian view and came here primarily to wind up marxists and commies; which he did with unvarying success.

                      At one point we had some very intense debates, when it suddenly occurred to me, that while the external rhetoric was quite different … the underlying pathology and behaviours between him and the people he was hating on, was identical. He was actually kind of shocked when I finally pointed this out to him.

                      I don’t know what happened to RB, I like to think he’s moved on from his extremism, because there was no doubt of his intelligence and sincerity. But he was wasting his life stuck on a dead-end ideology that took him nowhere but into darkness.

                    • arkie …
                      17 March 2019 at 6:03 pm

                      @Red

                      I care that anyone’s response to what has happen to the Muslim community in New Zealand is to make it about themselves, ‘the other side’ or promulgating the idea that doing anything to reduce the comfort that white-supremacists feel here in New Zealand is equivalent to creeping Communist control.

                      And I sense we are still not at the bottom.

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 March 2019 at 6:35 pm

                      Yet oddly enough, all the woke lefties here have had very, very little to say about the far more extensive horrors ISIS have perpetuated, or the entire catalog of ways in which a regressive Islam promotes ideas and beliefs that are entirely at odds with Western liberalism.

                      The silence is profound, it amounts to a tacit acceptance, of a system that compared to the West, really is patriarchal and oppressive in many respects. Yet these are the allies you chose; one can only speculate why.

                      Virtually the only other regular here who has consistently noted this is Psycho Milt, and both of us happen to share real-life exposure to Islam, not in the moderate forms we see here in NZ, but right at it’s roots in Saudi, Iran and the Middle East in general.

                      And of course PM and I are far from the only ones to have noticed this; it feeds directly into the worst fears of the white supremacists and alt-right extremists, ” with each pole feeding the growth of the other”.

                      This atrocity did not occur in a vacuum, and it’s perpetrator explicitly intended it should provoke a wider backlash. I mean think about it; no faintly sane person would commit something like this in order to directly promote their cause. It’s been counterproductive to his cause in every obvious respect; and indeed this is exactly what was intended … to make things worse, to trigger a reaction and precipitate open conflict. He says so.

                      Of course the events on Friday have shocked and saddened this country and it will take time for us all to come to terms with everything it may mean. But ignoring how it is connected with a much wider story than just white supremacist reactionary madness, does not do it justice.

                    • arkie …
                      17 March 2019 at 6:48 pm

                      @Red

                      And here we are:
                      You are now blaming the left for not condemning ISIS.
                      You are blaming this terrorist act on regressive Islam and it’s opposition to Western liberalism.
                      You are saying social justice is an ally of ISIS, who are the REAL oppressive patriarchy.
                      You are now Fraser Anning.
                      You egg.

                      I believe we have now reached the bottom.

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 March 2019 at 7:04 pm

                      @ arkie

                      Yes I imagined if your confirmation bias would lead you to twist my words into what you want to hear. It’s so predictable.

                      It’s OK I’m entirely accustomed to this; while any fair reading of our conversation shows that I’ve engaged you in good faith, avoided any personal aspersions and attacks, and made my case with reason and references … it was also obvious you would not be able to control yourself.

                      No we are not at bottom. You didn’t quite manage to morally equate me directly with Friday’s mass murderer as you have wanted to do all along.

                      And on that note, I invite you to continue digging this hole of your own making. I’m done here.

                    • arkie …
                      17 March 2019 at 7:39 pm

                      @Red

                      Poor you eh, always being rational, only for predictably triggered leftists to lose control and call you an egg for ‘reasoning’ yourself into yet another completely unnecessary equivocating ‘both-sides’ argument.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPof3taFRto

                      I’m done here

                      I should hope so.

                  • adam …
                    17 March 2019 at 3:11 pm

                    Well own your fascist, he is one of yours. Your happy to throw communism and it’s falling in our face. But you moan and cry like little babies when we pull up the fact one of yours goes on a murder spree.

                    Pathetic.

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 March 2019 at 3:19 pm

                      Tarrant is absolutely not my fascist buddy.

                      And no that very transparent bit of provocation that isn’t going to work.

                    • adam …
                      17 March 2019 at 3:31 pm

                      Not provocation, just pointing out a home truth. That fascism is an extension of right wing ideas.

                      The fact you won’t own that, is your problem – not mine.

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 March 2019 at 3:37 pm

                      It’s a clear and obvious provocation to suggest that in any sense I ‘own’ Tarrant or anything to do with him. You have not the slightest evidence to back it up, and you are using the justifiably high emotions of the past few days to smear me.

                      Which is OK, I’m not going to stop you, I’ve been targetted here by experts, and you my friend rate as a well meaning amateur. I’m just pointing out what you are doing. Indeed at some other time I might be tempted to play along with you for a bit, but not today thank you.

                    • adam …
                      17 March 2019 at 3:49 pm

                      You keep mentioning his name (great enabling tactic buddy), so I guess you are owning him as one of your own.

                      Business as usual on the right then, cry about a personal attack and some sort of hurt. Whilst at the same time quietly supporting a murderer.

                      Sad, but I’d expect nothing less from the hard right on this site.

                  • marty mars …
                    17 March 2019 at 6:52 pm

                    @ arkie – it won’t stop mate – I’ve been there and it really is a waste of time – he can’t/won’t see it – massive blind spot. Anyway good luck 🙂

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 March 2019 at 7:11 pm

                      @marty

                      Exactly what am I blind to here marty? What is it exactly do you want me to see? You never actually seem to come out and explain it in clear terms. Most of the time you just stalk this forum for things you can selectively twist out of context and get outraged about.

                      Because judging by your constant resort to hostility it seems you only want to make matters worse. It’s how you act all the time, it’s what we all see, blind spot or not.

                      Yet I’m sure that is not what you believe about yourself, and nor do I want to either.

                    • marty mars …
                      17 March 2019 at 7:24 pm

                      Reread the days comments from everyone to you – your ignorance and lack of awareness is glaring.

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 March 2019 at 7:32 pm

                      No I am demonstrably not ignorant; nor do I lack awareness. These are just code words you are using to mean “I don’t like what you are saying”. Which is OK, I’ve repeatedly tried to reassure you that I don’t mind you disagreeing with me.

                      What I want to hear is something from you, from your life and your experience. Something from the real marty please; the one that isn’t boringly angry with me all the time.

                    • marty mars …
                      17 March 2019 at 8:02 pm

                      sorry if you are hurt. I am angry at people like you because I think you empower white supremacists. I can’t stand the men’s rights movement and the people you like I despise.

                      But my overriding emotion with you red is sadness. deep deep sadness because although I disagree with you and dislike your views I believe you are a reasonably decent person yet you are imo so lost with this stuff.

                      anyway that is it for me on this – all the best.

                    • marty mars …
                      17 March 2019 at 10:37 pm

                      “If the Christchurch shooter really spent significant time in Turkey and Pakistan, I’m calling it now. He’s an ISIS convert.”
                      tat loo

                      “I’d put it in the 95% unlikely category, given none of us are in the position to refute it with direct evidence just yet.”
                      red logix

                      I take back my nice things I said to you – you’re shit.

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 March 2019 at 10:57 pm

                      It’s how I’m trained to think, in probabilities. There are relatively few types of knowledge about we have absolute certainty.

                      For instance, if A is longer than B, and C is longer than A, then we are absolutely certain that in a normal Euclidean frame of reference that C is also longer than B. This sort of logical reasoning is always either true or false. 100% everytime, but also only a very small fraction of human understandings.

                      Almost all other knowledge is subjective to the limits of our senses or our inability to prove the false proposition. For instance it is highly likely the sun will rise in the East tomorrow, but we cannot prove that it might not. It is possible to imagine ways in which it might not, and we cannot rule them out.

                      Did NASA fake the moon landings? Almost certainly not to a 99.99% confidence level. But given the limits of our knowledge, there remains tiny possibility we were all hoaxed; I don’t like it, I don’t promote it, but I leave the door open to the idea that I might also be wrong.

                      Is climate change caused by humans? This is a tougher one, I’d rate it at 98% true, mainly because it’s an insanely complex science and we are still very much refining the knowledge base. Again if some astounding genius demonstrated our current understanding was incorrect (or more likely incomplete), we need some intellectual room to allow for this possibility. This is the kind of thing science is always doing to itself; ideas I was taught decades ago as axiomatic are now completely re-written in forms I sometimes barely recognise.

                      So when I rate TL’s false flag at 95% unlikely, it’s not because I think he is right, it’s not because I want to justify anything. It’s because at this point in time even the police have barely started to properly investigate this guy, and I want to leave some intellectual space to be proven wrong.

                      It’s when people believe they are always 100% right on something that they become extremists, unable to be reasoned with, and implacably convinced of their superiority. Like our shooter.

                      Sorry if that annoys you, it’s just how I think.

                    • Bewildered []
                      18 March 2019 at 5:29 pm

                      Red I would state it simpler you think using reason Marty and his ilk simply think with emotions and all the underlying biases that come with that Likewise the hate when their emotional beliefs are challenged Don’t dispair the likes of Marty and his ilk ain’t for turning it does not mean thier inane views at times should not be challenged Gosman, Alwyn and yourself do gods work here 😊

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    17 March 2019 at 7:45 pm

                    I liked your citation at 3.46pm altho I haven’t yet felt the need to check out this Peterson fellow, I’m starting to get the sense he could be promoting a principled view. More worthy than the kindergarten-level puerile demonising that Arkie & Marty keep locking themselves into, I mean.

                    People who see fascism or racism wherever they look are just as useless in public discourse as people who see communism in anyone they disagree with (Muldoon, who kept saying so).

                    However I’m inclined to see the shooter as racist. Nobody has quoted from his manifesto to prove it yet, of course. Jumping to a conclusion is human nature: few seek evidence-based public policy.

                    Here’s a critique of the shooter manifesto from a young woman, very pc-brainwashed. It’s amusing, inasmuch as she seems to feel the need to complement his drivel with her own pc-drivel, to create an alt-right/alt-left hall of mirrors effect. I guess you could call that art??
                    https://medium.com/@emilypothast/what-the-christchurch-killers-manifesto-tells-us-about-the-radicalization-of-white-men-c55857149b33

                    • McFlock …
                      17 March 2019 at 7:51 pm

                      However I’m inclined to see the shooter as racist. Nobody has quoted from his manifesto to prove it yet, of course. Jumping to a conclusion is human nature: few seek evidence-based public policy.

                      I’m beginning to feel sorry for these fascists and racists who take the time and effort to literally label their tshirts or their guns with their core beliefs, and some people are still reluctant to commit to agreeing with them.

                    • marty mars …
                      17 March 2019 at 8:05 pm

                      funny how you can’t help insulting those you disagree with and then moan and bleet to the mods when others do it to you – that’s called being a hypocrite – but yeah you’ll like him dennis – your cup of tea totally.

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      17 March 2019 at 8:21 pm

                      Good try, but I haven’t asked any moderator here to intervene on my behalf. Not once. I did once or twice query their judgment re particular comments. Mildly, since I acknowledge that such judgments are subjective and entirely their prerogative.

                      And I’d like to reassure you that my criticism of what any commenter posts does not equate with how I feel about the person. I don’t know the person. In blog commentary, it is the written word that provokes the critical response. So we challenge the impressions created by the words. In the hope of triggering some learning in the other.

                      McFlock: I haven’t read what the shooter put on his guns, too distasteful. Re the t-shirt, the reactions exhibited by leftists baffle me. It’s as if they don’t know what islamophobia actually means. Fear of islam. I’m not afraid of islam, but I get why others are. I get that they do identity politics by proudly wearing t-shirts that say so.

                      Fear of killer ideologies is entirely rational, when proof of the threat can be specified in the doctrine. Once we see the proof, we understand their paranoia. When I say we, I mean reasonable people. Obviously those into demonising lack the requisite empathy.

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 March 2019 at 8:33 pm

                      Of course this shooter was a racist; yet just saying this adds no understanding, no new information that helps us understand.

                      Because in fact we are ALL racist to some degree. We all discriminate at some level in favour of those most familiar to us. Peterson and Weinstein elaborate even deeper on this theme, that we all have evolved programs running within us, that seek ways to favour our genes over others. We all have a natural affinity to family, people who look and behave like us, with whom we have shared experiences and interests. Indeed this instinct is the very root of all cultures and social cohesion, we are a social creature for the very reason that we select for the company of those like us.

                      Related to this is how we also have an important instinct to be naturally wary of strangers. We are not only a social being, but a territorial one as well, we guard our borders and are selective about whether outsiders should be admitted or not. Which again serves us well when it protects from infectious disease and hostile invaders. (If anyone here thinks I’m being fanciful, I ask you, do you leave your doors wide open for all and sundry to live in your home?)

                      The crucial point that is so very hard to convey around here, is that these instincts which served us so well in deep evolutionary time, are less well adapted in a globalised planet where boundaries exist in many dimensions, and whether they should be closed, open or porous is not always obvious.

                      And we also know they are also terribly vulnerable to distortion and exploitation for unworthy political purposes. Locked into cultural, religious, race, gender … any identity group … we fail to develop the moral structure to support a diverse global community in a cohesive, stable whole. As a result we are in this sense ALL ‘as racist as fuck’, our narrow group identities constrain our moral horizon, we cannot construct in our minds how we might actually order a truly global society … that is both just and compassionate.

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      17 March 2019 at 8:54 pm

                      I agree that some kind of biological programming drives such behaviour. The best theory I’ve encountered is mimetic (Mind Wars by McFadyen).

                      I see Trotter is advocating the lone wolf theory. Not explicitly disagreeing with Paul Buchanan, however. Yet Trotter fails to explain the other arrests!!

                      Trotter also pushes the mental illness explanation – yet nobody has cited evidence from the shooter’s past or family for that. Such contagion around jumping to conclusions is human nature. I did suggest the likelihood of that inasmuch as conflating peaceful muslims with killer muslims is irrational, and plausible evidence of a pathology. Trotter doesn’t get to that point.

                      Guilt by association is, however, part of human nature. I’m tempted to draw the conclusion that the shooter was thus exhibiting his humanity but will not yield to it. I’m not that rational! I see him as inhuman.

                  • marty mars …
                    17 March 2019 at 11:10 pm

                    sure red whatever – to me you’re still just running apologist lines for scum. All your long winded justifications are just hot air and worthless. You don’t get it and probably never will. Everyone can read all your comments over the day and all of the comments from people explaining the truth to you and they will decide what they think of you and me for that matter. Sugar coating shit does not take the shit taste away and you have talked sugar coated shit all day imo.

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 March 2019 at 11:33 pm

                      @marty

                      There goes the angry marty again. Yet because I’m not joining in with your anger you decide I must somehow be making some kind of hidden justification for what happened on Friday. I’m not.

                      It’s just how I am processing this event, somewhat detached and probably far too cerebral for your taste.

                      We have very different temperaments, you are who you are and it’s not my place to judge or seek to change that. Your heart is clearly in the right place. In turn I respectfully ask you either deal with me in good faith, or consider exactly what you are trying to achieve here.

      • Molly 3.4.3
        17 March 2019 at 12:00 pm

        “Whatever he is however, his main characteristic is that he is Evil.”
        Whatever acts he has committed, he is human.

        And if we fail to acknowledge that, we can pretend that he didn’t live in the same society as us, attend the same schools, have the same freedoms, and work in the same places and somehow managed to reach a level of fanaticism and arrogance – that made him think that committing such an evil act would be able to be reasoned away.

        There are external support systems out there that fed into that distorted view of humanity and unfortunately many who are exposed to it daily, will be able to relate the thin edge of that ignorant wedge. But the fact that we give public platforms to others should make us all question the validity of many uninformed and divisive opinions being able to be published or broadcast on our media, without their flaws and failures being highlighted.

      • Jenny - How to get there? 3.4.4
        17 March 2019 at 12:16 pm

        “posed by other conservative groups”.
        Why on earth do you call people like this murderer “conservatives”?
        About the only thing people can agree about him is that he is a white supremacist.

        Brenton Tarrant self describes as “a fascist”. Others who support or offer apologia for this massacre, like for instance Australian Senator Frazer Anning can also rightly come under the same broad heading.

    • Gabby 3.5
      17 March 2019 at 10:53 am

      I wonder if he has any connexion with Shatpant.

  4. patricia bremner 4
    17 March 2019 at 8:25 am

    The public and the PM are demanding greater scrutiny. Some of the members of groups may find they are visited by Police with a “Please explain”. Which should have happened before. But the best outing is public outing. We need to be accountable in protecting the innocent against attacks of any kind.

    • Graeme 4.1
      17 March 2019 at 9:44 am

      I think it might be coming rather quickly, this on Stuff this morning

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/111336647/we-dont-breed-mass-killers-accused-christchurch-shooters-gun-club

      “Pete Breidahl, 40, a former member of the New Zealand Defence Force, says he attended the club on three occasions, the last of which was in November, 2017, and overheard members talking about mass shootings, the zombie apocalypse and Martin Bryant, the man responsible for the Port Arthur Massacre.

      He was concerned the ethos at the club was the “perfect breeding ground” for a mass shooter and lodged a formal complaint with the police.

      …..

      While living in Dunedin, he said he went to the Bruce Rifle Club three times. The first two visits were to check the range out and zero a rifle. The third, in November, 2017, was a military shoot day.

      “The conversations I had and the people I met literally terrified me to my core and I left early.

      “The place just stunk of inadequacy compensated through use and ownership of semi automatic firearms. It was pretty f…ing disturbing.”

      He said he went to the Dunedin Police Station not long after and lodged a formal complaint with the arms officer.

      “I was advised they were well aware of the Bruce Rifle Club – ‘they’re just a bunch of silly old duffers, that’s just what they’re like down there, they’re a bit funny but it’s nothing to worry about’.” ”

      Looks like the police and gun club need to take a good look at themselves here. The club said in the item that they would be having a review of their culture, but if that extends to the police oversight then there may be need for much wider culture changes.

      • marty mars 4.1.1
        17 March 2019 at 10:06 am

        Be good for all gun clubs and members or anyone that has been there to be audited.

        • greywarshark 4.1.1.1
          17 March 2019 at 3:36 pm

          It’s hard to stop the rodeo, indeed anything that is an outlet for spectator he-men; the type that sit on the sidelines and shout abuse at players, or on the fence watching protesters go by and say:
          ‘Who do they think they are’ and ‘If anything was wrong we would fix it. You w…ers go home.’

      • I feel love 4.1.2
        17 March 2019 at 11:05 am

        Cops can’t find any evidence he laid a complaint. Dunedin police may have a few questions asked of them.

      • Dennis Frank 4.1.3
        17 March 2019 at 11:49 am

        And this: “Breidahl, a long range shooting instructor who owns a hunting business, told Stuff on Saturday he was “heartbroken” by the terror attack in Christchurch.”

        Well done, that man. Looking at his photo toting a gun on Stuff, you’d think him a typical gun nut. Not so. One who does actually grasp the essence of things. If the cops cannot acknowledge receipt of his formal complaint, their process is a sick joke.

        • bwaghorn 4.1.3.1
          17 March 2019 at 5:04 pm

          He popped up on fb today ranting how the cops should be hassling people in that gun club instead of law abiding guys like him just because hes got a cunt of an ex wife .!!! (Those are roughly his words) so I wouldnt be to pro him even though hes probably right about the gun stroking nutters at the gun club.

          • Dennis Frank 4.1.3.1.1
            17 March 2019 at 5:26 pm

            Yep, I get it (sigh). Macho dudes doing their thing, eh? Differentiating between them depends on context as much as behaviour.

  5. CHCoff 5
    17 March 2019 at 9:06 am

    If the unique value of NZ rugby hadn’t been lost, it would have been great having NZ Muslim citizens leading the All Blacks onto the field for everygame this year, as part of the tool kit to our expression of NZ living culture value when dealing with challenges.

    But we don’t have that rugby style game so much anymore as part of our societal delegation for it not to be abit farcical.

  6. Jenny - How to get there? 6
    17 March 2019 at 9:10 am

    Australia’s shame.

    The Australian parliament need to begin a process of impeachment against Fraxer Anning.

    Fascist senator egged. 17 year old “egg boy” tackled by “30 bogans”

    There is no way in a democracy that pro-fascist far right politicians like Fraser Anning should not be impeached under the law and thrown out of office. Let him stand for election again if he dare, and argue his pro-fascist views.

    Incidents like this will keep recurring until the authorities take a stand.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/fraser-anning-egged-will-connolly-17-named-online-as-egg-boy-who-confronted-farright-australian-a4093661.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR23v-6NwD7vD5OwXW1YIA2zPJkSPv_Se5VN_d5mj8JUofR2rMqmUelpGEo#Echobox=1552755279

    The boy who egged far-right Australian senator Fraser Anning has been named online as Will Connolly – with Aussies hailing him a “hero”.

    Mr Anning sparked outrage on Friday when, in the immediate aftermath of the New Zealand mosque shootings, he said the attacks “highlight growing fears” over an “increasing Muslim presence”.

    In the aftermath of the Christchurch massacre it is as if in the aftermath of the Kristallnacht a German politician said the attacks ” “highlight growing fears” over an “increasing Jewish presence”.

    We need to show zero tolerance of fascism in all its manifestations.

    The Australian parliament need to begin impeachment against Frazer Anning.

  7. Jenny - How to get there? 7
    17 March 2019 at 9:22 am

    Our government should be making diplomatic requests for censure of pro-fascist Australian senator Fraser Anning.

    Annings pro-fascist utterance amounting to incitement and interference in our internal affairs at this terrible time, gives us more than enough grounds to raise a diplomatic protest.

    • alwyn 7.1
      17 March 2019 at 4:05 pm

      The Australian Parliament already are getting prepared to censure Anning.

      “Prime Minister Scott Morrison on Saturday announced the Coalition and Labor would pass a motion when Parliament returns next month, censuring Senator Anning for the statement he issued on Friday that linked the Christchurch mosque attacks to immigration.
      “I would normally not want to give this any oxygen, but I want to absolutely and completely denounce the statements made by Senator Anning … on this horrendous terrorist attack, with issues of immigration, in his attack on Islamic faith specifically,” Mr Morrison said.
      “These comments are appalling and they’re ugly and they have no place in Australia. He should be, frankly, ashamed of himself.”

      Opposition Leader Bill Shorten said Senator Anning’s comments were “disgusting”.
      “The senator in question, I do not think operates by the beat of the same drum as the rest of us,” he said.
      “I cannot dream what world a politician or any Australian is seeing by blaming their victims and the faces of those being murdered.
      It is disgusting and has no place in the Australian Parliament and hopefully the voters will deal with this fellow in the most effective way.
      He should be put at the bottom of any political party voting.”

      https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-16/fraser-anning-egged-in-melbourne-while-speaking-to-media/10908650
      That sounds suitably pointed, don’t you think?

  8. marty mars 8
    17 March 2019 at 9:24 am

    Airnz you are shocking and disgusting trying to profit off pain.

    “Although we’ve been putting on additional capacity we have very little availability which is why the fares have increased.””

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12213438

    • dv 8.1
      17 March 2019 at 9:42 am

      Just did a search for return to Chch in the next week.
      They were $272.

      So looks like they took notice.

      • Graeme 8.1.1
        17 March 2019 at 10:28 am

        More like no one want’s to go to Christchurch next week.

        Air New Zealand, and I’d say all other airlines, base their pricing on demand in real time. When there is spike in demand, or sudden reduction in capacity the price will spike. All done with algorithms in their computer system.

        We get the same thing happening in Queenstown whenever there’s a weather disruption at the airport. This is fairly frequent with cross winds as fronts come through, and on dead still days with fully loaded aircraft that need a little bit of headwind to meet performance criteria. I’ve watched the prices skyrocket on their website when it happens. You don’t want to be buying a same day ticket that day.

        With Christchurch on Friday there was also the security concerns with the turboprop fleet. From talking to people who were there it was a bit of a challenge that was actually handled quite well by all concerned, but full capacity wasn’t possible.

        • dv 8.1.1.1
          17 March 2019 at 10:40 am

          Yes tend to agree re algorithmic pricing

          • Incognito 8.1.1.1.1
            17 March 2019 at 10:51 am

            It wasn’t me, it was the computer! FFS, they should have seen this coming from a mile away. Events got cancelled more or less straight away and I know that not just our political leadership were onto it from the get-go. But AirNZ are dragging their heels and it shows pathetically weak leadership, incompetence, or worse …

            You know, it’s the intention, the gesture that counts and this is severely lacking with some from whom you would expect a lot more.

        • marty mars 8.1.1.2
          17 March 2019 at 10:55 am

          It is about profit and at a time like this that is an abysmal driver. It’s not like the profit would disappear either just reduce. Fail by that company I hope shareholders let them know how badly they dropped the ball.

          • Graeme 8.1.1.2.1
            17 March 2019 at 11:18 am

            Unfortunately the airline will be stuffed whatever they do. One person’s compassion is another’s favouritism or bias. If you can come up with a better way of handling the situation that isn’t going to blow up in their face from many other angles you have a very bright future in the airline industry.

            Also airlines tend not to have $100 million assets sitting around doing nothing, particularly on a Friday afternoon. At least Air NZ would have had some chance of putting on extra flights, Jetstar or Virgin no chance.

            • marty mars 8.1.1.2.1.1
              17 March 2019 at 11:25 am

              Get real – dont you live in this country? Your argument is complete bullshit. They wanted to MAXIMISE their profit as they always do. They blew it and I hope they get the message loud and clear.

        • Sabine 8.1.1.3
          17 March 2019 at 12:01 pm

          who cares,.

          someone in Management should have had enough brains to know what it would look like, profiteering of misery and terrorism, and should have had enough brains and education and morals and human decency to do something before the algorithm jacks up prices to the point of prices being out of reach.

          What should, could have been done is Air NZ advertising special flights for family and friends to travel tot he funerals at no cost.

          but i guess that would go against profit making.

          Leichenfledderei, but its all good, the computer did it.

    • Incognito 8.2
      17 March 2019 at 10:30 am

      Sad that ‘our’ so-called national carrier can’t seem to do the right thing and introduce compassionate airfares. Business must be tight and that bottom-line, you know …

      • greywarshark 8.2.1
        17 March 2019 at 3:43 pm

        Government expectations and targets re profit for AirNZ and other SOEs. It’s not just to be efficient and effective so that we get the best out of our assets, it’s money to prop us the rockstar economy (with friendly borrowing rights from our overseas friends.)

        Get what the market can stand and then you can drop taxes on wealthy people. Has anyone noticed mention of a reversed regime for beneficiaries helping and encouraging them by not reducing grants and payments as soon as they earn above their allowance, probably set some years…decades ago while accommodation goes up 5-10% per month.

  9. WILD KATIPO 9
    17 March 2019 at 9:57 am

    Fuck Air NZ.

    And fuck Robertson who is a shareholder.

    And fuck private / public partnerships.

    Air NZ at centre of storm over Christchurch fares – NZ Herald
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12213438

    Its time we bulldozed these neo liberal arseholes out of the way and re-nationalized these once publicly owned SOE’s.

    • CLEANGREEN 9.1
      17 March 2019 at 10:29 am

      Me too again Wild Katipo.

      AirNZ as it has Grant Robinson our finance minister as a shareholder now along with John Key???

      What the F——-k!!!!!

      Nationalise the asset and get rid of these leeches.

      • Rapunzel 9.1.1
        17 March 2019 at 10:42 am

        I am pretty sure you are misunderstanding th situation if you are going by the names of direcotrs etc – in regard to public ownership (or part thereof) of anything on behalf of NZ by the government the Finance Minister, along with possibly other officials, will be named as a “shareholder” (I think or a director). That was the same under previous governments with ownership, or part there of of, of any of these “entities”, that I think accounts for Grant Robertson being named others I am pretty sure are there by “appointment” for what ever reason.

        • WILD KATIPO 9.1.1.1
          17 March 2019 at 11:32 am

          Summertime Blues- Eddie Cochran – YouTube

          • WILD KATIPO 9.1.1.1.1
            17 March 2019 at 11:34 am

            Piss off neo liberals.

            • Rapunzel 9.1.1.1.1.1
              17 March 2019 at 1:14 pm

              You’re making a huge effort to discredit and label me just because I pointed out Robertson’s name is there as a role of his duty in government? On top of the fact you have no idea of me as a person there are way more important things to consider I would have thought.

              • WILD KATIPO …
                17 March 2019 at 1:25 pm

                Have a cry on my shoulder neo liberal kid.

                • Rapunzel …
                  17 March 2019 at 3:49 pm

                  Kid? I am mother and grandmother not a kid and I just pointed out the relationship of the Finance Minister and the Crown with the Air NZ board as matter of courtesy, it was was not in any way remotely political. Your response was was uncalled for and missed my political position by at least a mile, perhaps it’s you who needs a hanky if you can so easily slip into aggression for no reason at all.

                  • WILD KATIPO …
                    17 March 2019 at 5:40 pm

                    Nah save your hanky , and give it to Robertson instead. Poor guy. Doesn’t want to look bad on the wrong side of history . Might affect his dividends.

                    Seriously if you people cant see how these free market neo liberals are playing you for a song and STILL getting you to support him… then you ARE the problem.

                    What a joke, and the jokes on YOU.

                    • marty mars …
                      17 March 2019 at 8:13 pm

                      You’re picking on the wrong person. Try actually reading what people write instead of reading what you think they’re going to write.

                      It is just the FACTS not a value judgment that he is a minister and has a specific relationship to that board. Just the FACTS get it?

              • greywarshark …
                17 March 2019 at 3:47 pm

                Wild Katipo works himself up to the point that his spring breaks, and you hear a symphonic wail as his foo-foo valve releases steam.

                • Rapunzel …
                  17 March 2019 at 5:04 pm

                  🙂 Ok that explains it sometimes it is a bit hard to become familiar if the posts are not clear as to “where xomeone is coming from” plus it is not OK for me, and I don’t mean “me” personally. that people so easily “judge” and label others – for a start it’s often wrong and a waste of time.

                  • WILD KATIPO …
                    17 March 2019 at 5:48 pm

                    Maybe its not clear to ‘know where the posts are coming from’ because I don’t subscribe to any herd group think, I don’t align myself with populist Let or Right narratives and if you try any of that shit on you will be challenged.

                    Pretty basic , really.

                    In other words,… don’t bullshit, don’t shed crocodile tears, don’t put on airs and graces or faux concern when you really couldn’t give a fuck , don’t conflate or try to twist whats patently obviously wrong to suit an agenda and you’ll be OK.

                    Frankly , I’ve had enough of bullshit artists on this site and other political sites and the online community in general . Its time to call time.

                    • Rapunzel …
                      17 March 2019 at 8:07 pm

                      Don’t worry I’m not trying to appease you and stating the situation re the Air NZ ‘shareholder/board” as best I could to my recall was not a debate and there were no tears, you seem like an argument looking for a place to happen and oddly landed on me, which was pathetic in the extreme.

                • WILD KATIPO …
                  17 March 2019 at 5:41 pm

                  And you mate?

                  Happy to back up your mate Jamsey wamsey are we?

        • WILD KATIPO 9.1.1.2
          17 March 2019 at 11:33 am

          Beatles She Loves You (With Lyrics) – YouTube

        • WILD KATIPO 9.1.1.3
          17 March 2019 at 11:40 am

          YEAH PISS OFF NEO LIBERALS !!!

          FUCK OFF !

          Texas Hippie Coalition – “Pissed Off and Mad About It” Carved …

          • WILD KATIPO 9.1.1.3.1
            17 March 2019 at 11:47 am

            Yeah and I even look like a cross between the guitarist , drummer and lead singer.

            Red dirt music. Real conservatism. Not bullshit poser Nazi neo liberals pretending they are.

            New Right Fight – Who are the New Right?
            http://www.newrightfight.co.nz/pageA.html

            So fuck off neo liberals – we don’t want you or your shit in this country . Fuck off and go to hell literally.

            • alwyn 9.1.1.3.1.1
              17 March 2019 at 4:19 pm

              “I even look like a cross between the guitarist , drummer and lead singer.”
              The mind boggles! Do you really have that much hair? You must look like Shrek before the shearing started.

        • alwyn 9.1.1.4
          17 March 2019 at 4:16 pm

          Robertson is only the named person responsible for the public ownership of 51.91% of the shares. They are not voted I believe.
          They aren’t his of course and the second he ceased to be Minister of Finance he would vanish from the records.
          He is also not a Director.

      • Prickles 9.1.2
        17 March 2019 at 10:49 am

        My understanding is that Grant Robertson is only a “shareholder” in that he is the Crown’s representative on the Air NZ board. It was at his insistence that the fares were dropped.

        • James 9.1.2.1
          17 March 2019 at 10:56 am

          He had a conversation but tickets were not dropped at his insistence.

        • Rapunzel 9.1.2.2
          17 March 2019 at 11:16 am

          Yes – despite the spelling errors (sorry) – that was more or less my understanding without “looking it up”, that it is to do with Crown ownership of something.

          In saying that I, as an ordinary NZer, more or less knew the reason Grant Robertson is “named” as a “shareholder” – perhaps if we had more “civics” taught in our schools people might become a bit more informed about how a government and country works and less of the mis-information. They might even have a better chance of assessing what the NZ media are reporting on and the difference between facts and “opinions”.

        • alwyn 9.1.2.3
          17 March 2019 at 4:28 pm

          Robertson is not on the Board.
          I also do not believe he would interfere in any way with their Operational decisions. It is a Publicly Listed Company and he wouldn’t go anywhere near interfering in their activities.
          Here is what I believe are the current Board Members.
          https://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/air-new-zealand-board

    • James 9.2
      17 March 2019 at 10:51 am

      You are making a fool of yourself with comments like that regarding Robertson.

      I know it’s an emotional time but try for once to at least make comments with a little understanding of how things work.

      • WILD KATIPO 9.2.1
        17 March 2019 at 12:02 pm

        Maybe its time for rounding on all these scum who have hidden themselves away surreptitiously behind both major party’s for the last three decades, – and maybe just like Adern thinking now is the time to change firearms laws to prevent just this sort of thing, – maybe its also time to turn the spotlight on these neo liberal scum who have cohabited both Labour and the ChiNational party for the last 3 decades and have robbed this country blind.

        Lets start the drum roll on all these fuckers while the momentum is there.

        • James 9.2.1.1
          17 March 2019 at 12:27 pm

          You realise you are sounding more like the crazy than the rest of society right.

          There is no momentum supporting views like yours.

          • WILD KATIPO 9.2.1.1.1
            17 March 2019 at 12:53 pm

            You realize you are sounding like the cowering small last vestige in the corner , right ?

            There is huge momentum against views that you hold. Or have you been firmly asleep since the demise of the John Key govt ?

            Idiot.

  10. Morrissey 10
    17 March 2019 at 9:58 am

    Abby Martin analyzes the Ocean of Lies on Venezuela

  11. Cinny 11
    17 March 2019 at 10:55 am

    Thanks for the link Morrissey will watch it next.

    Have you seen the latest Head to Head? Excellent interview.
    What is the human cost to China’s economic miracle?

    Mehdi Hasan challenges Charles Liu, senior fellow at Peking University, seasoned Chinese entrepreneur and informal adviser to the Chinese government, on Xi Jinping’s record in power so far, the government’s crackdown on the Uighur Muslim minority, and what role for China if it becomes the 21st century’s military and economic superpower.

  12. Ankerrawshark 12
    17 March 2019 at 11:02 am

    Last night I commented on I parents post about changing gun laws.

    A commenter saintanuard responed.

    He refererred to two terrorist attacks carried out in Sydney. Then said something like it is fair to say terrorism carried out by all sorts. Then he said “maybe that’s why chch perpetrator chose a mosque”

    I found this comment deeply troubling because it implies the chch shooter only did it cause of Muslim terrorists.

    I am aware my emotions are inning high like everyone’s, but I would request someone looks at that comment for moderating.

    • I feel love 12.1
      17 March 2019 at 11:07 am

      Yeah was a ridiculous comment, it’s still there.

    • marty mars 12.2
      17 March 2019 at 11:14 am

      + 1 yep mealy mouthed balance can piss off. We are confronted with white supremacist race and religion hatred – that is the enemy.

      • WILD KATIPO 12.2.1
        17 March 2019 at 12:27 pm

        Nah , just mealy mouthed racists , bigots, fanatics, haters and murderers found in every community , race , religion , creed or political movement.

        And that’s the blunt truth.

        • James 12.2.1.1
          17 March 2019 at 12:36 pm

          “just mealy mouthed racists , bigots, fanatics, haters and murderers found in every community , race , religion , creed or political movement.”

          Of which there are plenty examples of people on here. Just the other day asians were being called gooks, accusations of being gay were being used as an attack, gays were being called Nancy boys. One poster from here was saying “saffas” should have less rights in NZ than kiwis (paraphrased).

          I’m not pointing it out to have the same argument I’m pointing out that there is hate, racism and bigotry everywhere – and it should be called out.

          • Ankerrawshark 12.2.1.1.1
            17 March 2019 at 12:44 pm

            I support you James on this and spoke up at the time.

            Now more than ever we need to call out racism, homophobia sexism and espionage now islamophobia.

            • James 12.2.1.1.1.1
              17 March 2019 at 1:09 pm

              I acknowledge you did and it was (and is) appreciated.

              A couple of others did as well. However the majority either attacked the messenger or were either silent on the racist and homophobic language or supported the person who made the comments

              Also look at the language to others on here with different political views.

              A lot of people on here are in no position to throw stones.

              • Muttonbird …
                17 March 2019 at 9:51 pm

                I’m waiting for a particular commenter to retract after calling Mike Hosking a “top man” for playing Michael Jackson in response to a documentary detailing his pedophilia.

          • WILD KATIPO 12.2.1.1.2
            17 March 2019 at 1:15 pm

            So now your getting all left wing and bleeding heart . L0L0L0L !

            Seriously darlings, look back at your posts when darling John Key was in power.

            You had no time for the gays…

            You hypocrite…

            John Key booed off the stage at the Big Gay Out – LGBT … – YouTube

            • WILD KATIPO 12.2.1.1.2.1
              17 March 2019 at 1:22 pm

              From the piece of shit leader of the neo liberals Shonkey himself … the man who screamed ” GET SOME GUTS” in supporting drone strikes on civilians in the middle east and signing off on Operation Burnham… and forcing the TTPA on NZ without proper democratic debate…

              YOU,… James ,… have been caught in a sticky moment , mate.

              Channel 4 1989 into 1990-Sticky Moments with Julian Clary #2 …

            • James 12.2.1.1.2.2
              17 March 2019 at 1:24 pm

              Calling out racist isnt left wing. In fact I haven’t seen you doing it despite being a “leftie” which is exactly my point.

              • WILD KATIPO …
                17 March 2019 at 1:29 pm

                Mate , first off I’m not a lefty. Never once said I was. And that’s the beauty of being a conservative nationalist. You can be either to the left or right . And you can attack wankers from both sides. And as its so shown – there’s plenty of wankers that need to be called out on both sides of the fence.

                Eh James…

                New Zealand First , mate.

                Taking no neo liberal shit from either the left or the right.

                But at least when I mean conservative I dont mean globalist or neo liberal.

                And as I posted above – where were YOU when John Key was screaming ” GET SOME GUTS ” in wanting to join Obama in warring in the middle east?

                Where were you?

                Why , … right here on this forum saying how the west should be laying into peoples in the middle east using troops and boots on the ground and endorsing drone strikes.

                That’s where you were , mate.

                Hypocrite.

                • James …
                  17 March 2019 at 1:32 pm

                  By refusing to acknowledge the problem and just blaming others – people like you are part of the problem.

                  • WILD KATIPO …
                    17 March 2019 at 2:01 pm

                    If you scroll up several comments you will find that YOU , and others were labeling and implying it was an exclusive problem with one race…

                    ” yep mealy mouthed balance can piss offWe are confronted with white supremacist race and religion hatred – that is the enemy”.

                    ^ This one seems to think its that simplistic and that hate doesn’t happen against whites from other races… l0l.

                    ”He refererred to two terrorist attacks carried out in Sydney. Then said something like it is fair to say terrorism carried out by all sorts. Then he said “maybe that’s why chch perpetrator chose a mosque”

                    ^ Thus guy seems to have a problem with the reality that racism occurs in EVERY race.

                    ——————————–

                    See, that’s just the thing… all you cold as shit bastards using incidents to further your own political views. A bit like you , Jamesy wamsey. Like chameleons, you change your tack as each incident happens- hoping like hell people forget your posts from a few years ago.

                    I think that’s what galls the most, the shifting goal posts, the hypocrisy and the political expediency and cold hearted ruthless bullshit people like you and others are prepared to go to.

                    And all it would take would to go back into the archives of The Standard to absolutely prove my point.

                    Eh ,Jamsey wamsey.

                    You don t fool me , mate.

                    Oh , Trumps here and Obamas gone.

                    The people of the middle east can rest easy about drone strikes ( which YOU endorsed , James , being signed off every Tuesday morning by Obama for five years … ). Trump just made freinds with the leader of North Korea- the first time any USA Pres did in over 60 years… and now Nth Korea looks like itll get American investment and dollars into its economy…

                    Kim gets to see his son on the throne and the American financial community gets to invest. Sure beats bombing the hell out of defenseless civilians in the middle east with drone strikes, … eh ,… Jamsey Wamsey…

                    • James …
                      17 March 2019 at 2:17 pm

                      Reading your disjointed delusional ravings I guess either the drugs have worn off or the drugs have kicked in.

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      17 March 2019 at 2:28 pm

                      Like many of you slimy political eels , once challenged and confronted with your own shit and your own lies… you resort to the usual one liner puerile put downs.

                      I have done this to those Hypocrites on the left and on the right and they ALWAYS , – YES ALWAYS … end up with the puerile one liner parting shots.

                      They have no answer when called out.

                      I have voided you and your hypocrisy publicly and you know it.

                      Get lost and go home.

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      17 March 2019 at 2:41 pm

                      Oh ,… and ‘disjointed ?’…

                      Well that’s funny… is your attention span that of a 5 year old?

                      Do you have a problem with multiple concepts and analogy’s?

                      Can you not grasp the most simplistic of concepts and see how an analogy or a paralleled example to demonstrate a reality can be appropriated ? Do you have a problem with perception and reality , Jamesy?

                      Good god !- have you even read Lord of the Rings or any other basic literary works and lost your way , for example ?

                      Why are you then trying to grapple with complex geo political issues on this forum then if you cannot even grasp the simplistic dynamics between good versus evil in a mere novel ???

                      That’s about the most simplistic breakdown I can give you of how you sound, mate.

                      And a lot of these other ones trying to make virtue and political mileage out of white guilt – or any other races ‘guilt’ FFS….

                      ALL humans are capable of evil.

                      Learn that and learn it WELL .

                    • James []
                      17 March 2019 at 3:18 pm

                      You still going ????

                      Try relaxing and counting to 10.

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      18 March 2019 at 8:14 am

                      Haven’t got an answer?… well hell,… that’s what people have been saying about you for years… yet you still persist.

                      Funny how the neo liberal Left and the neo liberal Right close ranks when the shit starts getting thrown back at them.

                      Amusing really , darlings…

                • Dennis Frank …
                  17 March 2019 at 1:54 pm

                  Interesting that you’re NZF. When the winebox was happening, I voiced my support of his stance in conversations in the TVNZ newsroom with those I worked with. Journalists are famously non-committal of course, which is why I had to be quite deliberate to make the ethical point. Of course I was a minority of one (that goes without saying) but they also knew I was with the Greens so I figured it would get them thinking.

                  So yesterday I declared here that I would withdraw my support of the coalition if they failed to act promptly and legislate to outlaw semi-auto guns as LPrent advocated. Dunno if you are just a supporter or an actual member, but I’m curious about the stance you’d advise Winston to take, if you found yourself sitting next to him at the pub.

                  • WILD KATIPO …
                    17 March 2019 at 2:24 pm

                    Ban semi automatics as they are military grade tactical weapons which the civilian population have no need for.

                    They are designed primarily for laying down suppressing fire on an enemy to gain a tactical advantage using a rapid fire motion.

                    As such both semi automatics and fully automatics are and should be the preserve of the Police and the military only.

                    There are NO civilian reasons for anything other than single shot / bolt action firearms whether they be pest eradication , hunting or sporting purposes. No hunter uses a semi automatic to hunt with because it renders the carcass bruised beyond any practical use.

                    If a hunter cannot bag his deer with a single shot bolt action rifle then they are effectively deficient in the use of their firearm as others can bag their game with the same.

                    Magazine size then becomes a moot issue if the rapidity of fire is limited to a single, bolt action type firearm.

                    On the issue of firearms licenses and firearm registration, – all holders of licensed firearms should have each individual firearm registered as belonging to that licensed firearms holder, – this would cut out the blackmarket firearms trade.

                    These are simple, basic and pragmatic measures to prevent large scale slaughter such as we have seen in Christchurch.

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      17 March 2019 at 3:37 pm

                      Thanks, that all seems sensible to me. Let’s hope NZF is as keen as the other two parties to produce the legislation the PM has called for asap…

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      18 March 2019 at 8:22 am

                      Unlike the other bitches who pretend they are either Left or Right but are actually neither… but rather slimy , neo liberal , dishonest goal post shifter’s as the circumstances permit…

                      You will find much that is sensible in the centrist position.

                      And I have maintained that opinion since my early 20’s.

                      And that was 35 years ago.

                      So its not necessarily a NZ First position. It is a personal observation, one which was solidified as time went on and basic observations were made and the pragmatic solutions needed to rectify those situations.

                      Unlike the screaming hysterical far Left or Right who usually will operate on a dollar cost and base policy on an emotive ill informed public rather than sound practice and commonsense solutions.

                      Thus they are the slime, the slippery never ending and foundation-less Nirvana of political thought of the neo liberals.

              • Incognito …
                17 March 2019 at 1:31 pm

                The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

                Let it go, James, even for just one day.

        • marty mars 12.2.1.2
          17 March 2019 at 1:46 pm

          No stop diluting what has happened – stop adding groups in and stop distracting from what has happened.

    • te reo putake 12.3
      17 March 2019 at 11:23 am

      I did look at it and decided it to release it from pre-mod (first time commenters get held until released). I didn’t like the comment’s conclusion any more than you did, but I assumed it was made in good faith and it did contribute to the debate (albeit negatively). It’s a fine line sometimes.

      • Andre 12.3.1
        17 March 2019 at 11:28 am

        Aha! You’re the one I should blame for me wasting the time to check it’s unsubstantiated assertions.

        But seriously, I support your choice to let the filth be exposed to light. Even if it can’t be sterilised, at least it helps show the scope of the problem.

        • te reo putake 12.3.1.1
          17 March 2019 at 11:49 am

          Sorry about that loss of otherwise productive time, Andre!

          I think it’s quite heartening that the vast majority of comments have been considered and thoughtful. I think all the mods have tried to be as tolerant as possible of commenters here who, like all kiwis, are struggling to understand what has happened and have perhaps edged a little too close the line of the unacceptable.

      • Ankerrawshark 12.3.2
        17 March 2019 at 12:47 pm

        Hi te reo. Thanks for that. I will go will with your judgement.

        Interesting a that he is a new commentator. I would not be at all surprised if the gun lobby mount a campaign to come on websites like this and argue against changing the gun laws. We might have a huge fight on our hands. Which is totally bewildering to me. Why would anyone want to own a semi automatic????????

        • te reo putake 12.3.2.1
          17 March 2019 at 12:57 pm

          I’m afraid you are probably correct. I read on twitter this morning that one hunting website is already frothing about their ‘rights’ being curtailed. Where I grew up, the rule was ‘one shot, one kill’. Anybody using a semi-auto on game would have been laughed out of the bush.

          However, I think the gun lobby will be ignored no matter how they froth and fuss. Change is coming.

          • marty mars 12.3.2.1.1
            17 March 2019 at 12:59 pm

            Check out his other comments.

          • Andre 12.3.2.1.2
            17 March 2019 at 1:02 pm

            I wonder what proportion of semi-auto owners are loudly frothing about their rights, and what proportion are silently thinking “Bugger. If that’s what the public good requires, so be it. It was fun while it lasted”.

  13. Jenny - How to get there? 13
    17 March 2019 at 11:18 am

    ‘

    A silver fern has been projected onto the Sydney Opera House as a symbol of solidarity for New Zealanders following the Christchurch terrorist attack.

    To show their solidarity with New Zealand at this terrible time, Australia needs to do a lot more than this token symbol

    In New Zealand at least two anti-immigrant websites have been pulled down.

    https://www.noted.co.nz/tech/christchurch-shootings-anti-immigration-websites-taken-down-after/

    And no New Zealand politician has dared offer any apologia for the massacre.

    In contrast, across the Tasman, Australian Senator Frazer Anning freely spouts his vile anti-immigrant filth as a justification for the Christchurch massacre, without consequence.

    Action against anti-immigrant and pro-fascist senator and apologist for the massacre in Christchurch Frazer Anning would show that Australia is sincere in being in solidarity with New Zealand,more than mere tokenism ever can.

    So far the only reported active opposition to Anning came from 17 year old “Egg Boy”, Will Connoll. who was pounced on by “30 bogan” supporters of the Senator.

    No punitive action at all of Anning from the Australian legal authorities or parliamentary disciplinary authorities.

    Action against anti-immigrant and pro-fascist senator and apologist for the massacre in Christchurch Frazer Anning would show that Australian authorities are sincere in professing solidarity with New Zealand, more than mere tokenism.

    It shouldn’t be up to a 17 year old boy to take action against this fascist clown.

    A silver fern has been projected onto the Sydney Opera House as a symbol of solidarity for New Zealanders following the Christchurch terrorist attack.

    • Ankerrawshark 13.1
      17 March 2019 at 12:51 pm

      I have been waiting for an Australian politician to say how deeply ashamed they are that the perpetrator was an Australian born citizen. Like our PM did re the grace Millane murder.

      On a different note my husband got an email from Simon Bridges (?….) not sure how this was possible with a few words and the give a little link. I appreciate this approach from Simon

      • Dennis Frank 13.1.1
        17 March 2019 at 3:44 pm

        Well our tv news did include the response from the Oz PM and I was pleasantly surprised by his demeanour & language. He seemed deeply affected, even if he did not actually say he was deeply ashamed.

        Not the usual weasel words. He actually called the shooter an extreme right-winger, which, coming from a right-winger, is both accurate and honest.

    • Molly 13.2
      17 March 2019 at 2:10 pm

      It might have been more meaningful if alongside the innocuous silver fern, a symbol of Islam was included in that projection. Those New Zealanders that lost their lives weren’t targeted because they were New Zealanders – they were targeted because they were Muslim.

      That temerity and lack of acknowledgement is part of the ‘other’ game that we play.

  14. Ovid 14
    17 March 2019 at 11:19 am

    Contrapoints on how to recognise a fascist.

    https://youtu.be/Sx4BVGPkdzk

  15. marty mars 15
    17 March 2019 at 11:20 am

    “Following Jacinda Ardern’s comments on Saturday morning, gun shop owners – at bricks and mortar stores, and online – experienced a jump in sales.”

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/111343558/panic-buying-of-guns-ahead-of-ban-sparked-by-christchurch-shooting

    I’m not surprised just sickened by this.

    • I feel love 15.1
      17 March 2019 at 11:30 am

      Neither. Making the anti gun arguments point really. Have you ever been in one of those gun shops? We have 2 here in Dunedin, both the size of The Warehouse and wall to wall 1000s of guns, I’m not exaggerating. By definition gun owners seem to be quite paranoid (not all of course, but there does seem to be a macho “you’re not the boss of me” entitled attitude to a lot of them).

      • marty mars 15.1.1
        17 March 2019 at 11:35 am

        Nah never go in.

        I’ve gotta mate into tool porn – loving the latest tool, gadget and stuff. Gun porn is a lot more serious and there are quite a few of these addicts out there imo. They are dangerous.

        • I feel love 15.1.1.1
          17 March 2019 at 11:48 am

          I have to enter lot’s of places I wouldn’t normally go because of my job. There’s a 3rd gun shop but I think it’s been in South D for decades, but there’s 2 new mega ones. One in Mosgiel too. That’s a lot of gun shops.

          • Puckish Rogue 15.1.1.1.1
            17 March 2019 at 11:54 am

            Elios still around then?

            • I feel love 15.1.1.1.1.1
              17 March 2019 at 12:02 pm

              Yes that’s the one PR, but it’s a family type place really, does key cutting wotnot, plastic ducks in the window, you can see it’s focus is on hunting, not weapons as glam.

          • marty mars 15.1.1.1.2
            17 March 2019 at 12:05 pm

            Yep. I grew up in mosgiel. Mum lived in south dunners till she died. Too many gun shops imo

      • James 15.1.2
        17 March 2019 at 1:14 pm

        “By definition gun owners seem to be quite paranoid“

        By definition you are talking out your arse. That’s just your view.

        • I feel love 15.1.2.1
          17 March 2019 at 2:23 pm

          Hit a soft spot did I petal? Advertising for guns rely on paranoia, and all those gun guys stocking up on amo are what? Well adjusted personalities?

    • dv 15.2
      17 March 2019 at 11:32 am

      If they change the law then it surely it would be illegal to have such weapons and will have to be surrendered. (No reimbursement)

      And also make it mandatory to look at the sales to identify who has what guns.

      • Puckish Rogue 15.2.1
        17 March 2019 at 11:58 am

        If you make people criminals with the stroke of a pen why then would they follow the law if they think they can get away with it

        “Hello police I’d like to report my firearms have been stolen”

        https://www.backwoodshome.com/bury-a-gun-and-ammo-for-15-years/

        • Sabine 15.2.1.1
          17 March 2019 at 12:09 pm

          You might need a semi automatic for shooting rabbits or goats or just to feel all grown up and manly n shit, but frankly i can’t wait for these things to be made illegal.

          We make all sorts of shit illegal that causes way less harm than one of these penis enlargement sticks.

          And if you like shooting one of these fro shits n giggles go to a club where they are kept under lock and are only taken out when you come in to shoot one for shits n giggles.

          • Puckish Rogue 15.2.1.1.1
            17 March 2019 at 12:16 pm

            ‘You might need a semi automatic for shooting rabbits or goats or just to feel all grown up and manly n shit, but frankly i can’t wait for these things to be made illegal.’

            I use my semi-auto .22 to shoot targets, the range is only half an hour away so its convenient

            ‘We make all sorts of shit illegal that causes way less harm than one of these penis enlargement sticks.’

            Yes and theres all sorts of stuff thats legal but does a lot more damage than all the semi-autos in NZ ever will

            ‘And if you like shooting one of these fro shits n giggles go to a club where they are kept under lock and are only taken out when you come in to shoot one for shits n giggles.’

            Its kept under lock and key (and two large barky dogs) at my home which means its a lot more secure then it is at a gun because its not hard to track down a gun club but its a damn sight harder to track down weapons in someones home

            • Sabine 15.2.1.1.1.1
              17 March 2019 at 12:19 pm

              i don’t fucking care what you use it for.

              you tell dead about the damage taht can be done by other things.

              many many children have killed others with weapons that responsible gun owners have had locked away until they somehow werent locked away anymore, Sandy Hook School comes to mind.

              so frankly, go love on your gun and find better arguments. Cause the ‘they don’t do damage’ raod is littered with teh body of dead people shot by this type of weapon.

              btw, in my own opinion if you can not hunt without a semi automatic you should buy your meat at a butchers.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                17 March 2019 at 12:32 pm

                Just of the top of my head more kids are killed in NZ by:

                drowning
                assault (by family members or otherwise)
                vehicles
                alcohol
                drugs (legal and otherwise)

                than are killed by firearms

                “btw, in my own opinion if you can not hunt without a semi automatic you should buy your meat at a butchers.”

                I don’t hunt with a semi-auto, I target shoot with a semi-auto. I have a Tikka T3X in 7mm08 for hunting purposes however I’m not arrogant enough (unlike a number of posters on here) to proclaim what people shall and shall not hunt with

                • Sabine …
                  17 March 2019 at 12:36 pm

                  we have mass murderers that drown 50 people in less then 18 minutes?

                  we have mass murderers that assault and kill 50 people in less then 18 minutes by hand, blunt weapon, knives?

                  we have mass murderers that have driven a car in to a building killing 50 people in less then 18 minutes?

                  we have mass murderers that have killed 50 people (including a 3 year old) in less then 18 minutes with alcohol?

                  we have mass murderers that have killed 50 people in less then 18 minutes with drugs?

                  and these are the ones that were killed, we sill have 50 more injured in hospital.

                  that is 10 people per 1.8 minutes injured by some fuckwit who thought that being white is the best thing about him and that not being white and being a muslim is grounds for being mowed down in a house of worship.

                  try harder dude, you are failing miserably.

                  • marty mars …
                    17 March 2019 at 12:55 pm

                    + 1

                  • gsays …
                    17 March 2019 at 3:54 pm

                    Now that PR’s gun argument has been owned what do you plan to do with it sabine?

                    Put it on trade me.
                    For sale, one half arsed, ill considered, poorly timed response to a common sense desire to ban military purpose weapons.
                    New owner must be oblivious to public sentiment.

            • Sabine 15.2.1.1.1.2
              17 March 2019 at 12:21 pm

              “Yes and theres all sorts of stuff thats legal but does a lot more damage than all the semi-autos in NZ ever will”

              go find thee a mirror and look at that sad human being that you are.

              https://www.nzherald.co.nz//nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12213358&ref=clavis

            • Molly 15.2.1.1.1.3
              17 March 2019 at 12:31 pm

              PR, no-one is suggesting someone is going to use your particular weapon for a heinous act. So the personal security detail on your weapons is not relevant.

              What is relevant, is that for you to be able to purchase, others will be given the same access.

              That access can then lead to a situation where there is occasion for multiple fatalities, with little to no chance of defence or escape.

              Your personal preference can be limited by your recognition of the moral duty to others, and can willingly be given up. You are not only choosing to not consider that, you just keep doubling down on irrelevancies in an effort to convince (perhaps yourself) along with others. It is not going to work, because it is not a reasonable or ethical choice to make.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                17 March 2019 at 12:44 pm

                Well my personal preference is for changes to the gun laws themselves

                For instance move all semi-autos into the E endorsement whether they are MSSA or not and make the barrier (through more extensive personal vetting) to ownership higher

                Another way would to be to strengthen all gun laws, for example if, during a search or something, someone has in their possession an illegal firearm then they got a minimum custodial sentence to be added onto to whatever other charges they have (could start with 5 years or more if needed)

                If crime involving a firearm could likewise be strengthened

                Anyone found to breaking the law when selling also gets a mandatory sentence, dealers to lose their licence etc etc

                I was thinking maybe having no individual sales but then the dealers would probably like that quite a bit…

                Crackdown on idiots, for example the guy who went out to help the police and was then released should lose the licence for a period of time at least

                If convicted of a crime (any crime) you lose your gun licence, have your fire arms taken away and sold (proceeds to the victims or charity) and you have to apply for your licence again (with no guarantees you get it back)

                More money spent on mental health

                All these things above will do more than the knee-jerk reaction of “ban all the things”

                • Molly …
                  17 March 2019 at 12:50 pm

                  ” the knee-jerk reaction of “ban all the things”

                  Your detailed reply, still fails to mention the balance between “personal choice” and “moral duty”.

                  All the regulations in the world are inadequate, when facing a semi-automatic weapon held by a person with intent to maximise harm.

                  And if we can make it just that much more difficult for people to get, then we would not have the case where a registered gun owner was legally able to purchase such a weapon, and ammunition and slaughter others so easily.

                  It is not a “knee-jerk reaction” to limit gun sales in such a way. It is a “considered response”, that takes into account the legal uses for guns in New Zealand, and balances it with the moral duty to avoid extreme harm.

                • Ankerrawshark …
                  17 March 2019 at 1:00 pm

                  PR I am glad you see changes are necessary…..I wouldn’t claim to know what would be most effective but semi automatics must surely go. The difference if this guy had of just had a rifle would be huge ie far less loss of life. If we compare this to what over time has brought the suicide rate down it was in the 70s when they changed household gas from that which was lethal to that which is benign. I think it’s a fair comparison.

                  Re mental health, yes please increase spending as labour is noticeably doing,. But there are some people we have no treatments for, this perpetrator being one of them. He is a very dangerous man

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    17 March 2019 at 1:08 pm

                    The thing is this guy planned really, really well. I mean he did everything right (by right I mean to carry out his plan not right in being good)

                    No criminal record, at the time of writing no ones seems to have any recollection of him spouting any his beliefs, we don’t even know if hes left or right, he flew under everyones radar

                    So I don’t think the authorities could have stopped him because he gave them nothing to go on (at the time of writing)

                    With that level of patience, planning and the apparent funds (based on the amount of overseas travel) he probably could have done any number of things to cause this level of damage

                    Having said that yeah I’ve always thought that there are some inconsistencies in the gun laws (the semi-auto classification is one of them) but I don’t think that whats needed is to out right ban a class of weapons

                    • marty mars …
                      17 March 2019 at 1:53 pm

                      Nah he couldn’t have killed as many innocent people without his weapon. You refuse to accept this because you like your semi 22. You’re self centered mate and focused on your own enjoyment without a care for others. I hope good gun owners hand their weapons in so our community is safer.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      17 March 2019 at 1:59 pm

                      “Nah he couldn’t have killed as many innocent people without his weapon”

                      He could easily achieve 15 (more so given the amount of practice and the range he was firing at) aimed shots per minute including magazine changes using a bolt action rifle, probably one shot every 2-3 seconds easily especially with todays bolt action rifles

                      “You refuse to accept this because you like your semi 22. ”

                      I refuse to accept it because I know a little bit about this whereas as most on here don’t

                      “You’re self centered mate and focused on your own enjoyment without a care for others. ”

                      Not true, I want harsher penalties, I want tougher laws and I want harder restrictions and I want the police to do their jobs and the courts to back them up

                      “I hope good gun owners hand their weapons in so our community is safer.”

                      I’d prefer bad owners and criminals hand their weapons in first

                    • Molly …
                      17 March 2019 at 1:59 pm

                      “With that level of patience, planning and the apparent funds (based on the amount of overseas travel) he probably could have done any number of things to cause this level of damage”
                      Poor reasoning, there PR. Anyone with intent can cause a lot of damage, within or outside of existing laws.

                      The discussion here is regarding the balance between personal choice in terms of firearms and the moral responsibility of restricting that choice in order to reduce harm. (Deliberately and repeatedly using the word ban in this case belies your emotive attachment to this particular class of weapon, and implies a complete removal of gun access – even though it is not).

                      You are discussing the abstract in terms of legal mechanisms, and have not chosen to address the reality of harm that was committed. You also have not outlined whether you believe in a collective moral duty.

                    • adam …
                      17 March 2019 at 3:22 pm

                      What knee jerk Puckish? The idea that semi-auto rifles should be banned has been on the table since Aramoana.

                      It’s the lies that hurt…

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      17 March 2019 at 4:08 pm

                      I agree that it was an unusually well-planned operation. The advance notice to the PM, with just not quite enough time for a preventative response. The similar noticed given to the Nat Leader, the Speaker, and others.

                      More than just mass homicide. A political intervention. His statement that he deliberately chose this country because it was considered safe, to prove that isn’t true. His advocacy of racist ideology in his manifesto combine with his mass killing to exhibit a recruitment psychology: lead by example, to generate more followers. If Buchanan is right about the cell – his manifesto declared he is acting alone, contrary to the picture created by the other arrests – then our anti-terrorism security measures were defeated by his military competence.

        • marty mars 15.2.1.2
          17 March 2019 at 12:10 pm

          Your gun defense has been shown on the other thread to be silly. It seems you expect gun owners to break the law. If they do they will face the consequences and lose everything. Bit all or nothing it seems from gun owners. Audit the lot of them and prosecute hard with high fines and worse for the real baddies imo.

          • Puckish Rogue 15.2.1.2.1
            17 March 2019 at 12:26 pm

            Its considered silly because the people on the other thread were saying there was no reason to have one and when a reason was given they’d just say they don’t agree with it

            So basically piss weak arguing by people who think they know but basically know buggar all but believe they have right on their side because they “care”

            Look at the harder question as to why this guy did what he did, nope ban semi-autos

            See if the cops dropped the ball and the guy shouldn’t have been able to buy the weapons in the first place, nope ban semi-autos

            I get its emotionally satisfying to want to “fix” this because we all feel powerless but knee jerk law changes won’t change this

            We need to figure out to stop people wanting to commit mass murder in the first place and demonizing people will not help, all it will do is make someone find out other ways to kill

            • Sabine 15.2.1.2.1.1
              17 March 2019 at 12:32 pm

              we need to reduce the availability of weapons so that wanna be mass murderers have to try harder to kill 50 people in less then 15 minutes.

              go find better arguments, you are failing.

            • Andre 15.2.1.2.1.2
              17 March 2019 at 12:36 pm

              We can work to figure why someone becomes so disturbed they go to commit mass murder and make it much harder for them to acquire the tools for very easy mass murder.

              Balance fifty of us murdered against the very small extra pleasure derived by a very small number of people being able to pump a load of hot lead pellets into a hillside slightly faster, and I’m seriously wondering why it’s even a fucking question.

              • McFlock …
                17 March 2019 at 3:31 pm

                exactly.

                Experts from all over the world will be studying this rogue anus for decades to try to figure him out.

                But we can still ditch semi-autos.

                And every gun store should have its sales records handed over to the police, who can then match magazine sales and pistol grips and so on to any firearms license holder who doesn’t have an E class endorsement. won’t be perfect, but will get a few.

                • Sam …
                  17 March 2019 at 3:46 pm

                  Id recommend restricting the lot, reapting pistols, long arms, shotguns, bolt fed. Want a gun under say 5.56 then people will just have to accept chanbering each round, by hand, one by one, slowly. And just have the one gun license.

        • I feel love 15.2.1.3
          17 March 2019 at 12:21 pm

          Ahh yes, the “you’re not the boss of me” entitlement. I think the guns should be bought back for sure. Basically the gun owning and gun industry group have fucked up, a tragedy like this highlights the current gun laws aren’t restrictive enough and need tightening. That should be fairly obvious. If this racist can get guns (legally) then anyone can.

          • Sabine 15.2.1.3.1
            17 March 2019 at 12:21 pm

            this racist could get guns because everyone and their dog can get one.

            • mauī 15.2.1.3.1.1
              17 March 2019 at 12:37 pm

              And just like dangerous dog owners they shout, but I’m a model dog owner! I should be allowed this weapon/animal of extreme violence even if it puts the rest of my community at risk.

              • I feel love …
                17 March 2019 at 1:10 pm

                “my dog won’t bite”, didn’t we ban dangerous dogs?

                Also on the other thread it wasn’t just the soft lefties agreeing with lprent but other hunters and gun users.

    • Sabine 15.3
      17 March 2019 at 12:06 pm

      neither surprised nor sickened. These tiny brained short fingered vulgarians live everywhere on this planet.

      • Ankerrawshark 15.3.1
        17 March 2019 at 1:06 pm

        I actually wonder if the most effective thing might be to sue gun manufacturers. I understand this is being looked at by some college kids caught up in a school masequre in the states. Sue the pants off these bastards who are lining their pockets from selling guns. Bankrupt them. Oh and change the gun laws.

        And as I said yesterday to all of you who get so much fun out of firing some rounds of a semi automatic, time to get a new hobby. Please.

    • Molly 15.4
      17 March 2019 at 12:26 pm

      Apparently it is a common phenomenon in the States after a mass shooting, but not necessarily related to fear or defence of personal safety, but any intimation that gun laws may be strengthened.

      Which may indicate similar traits amongst some gun owners here about the balance between personal choice and moral duty.

      • Sabine 15.4.1
        17 March 2019 at 12:40 pm

        maybe it has to do with whom is president rather then anything else

        gun sales up under Obama
        gun sales down under Trump

        “DENVER – President Trump’s declaration that he’s the best friend gun owners will ever have comes with a twist: His election has actually reduced gun sales.

        While gun sales surged under President Obama, they’ve dropped noticeably since Trump took office”

        https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/03/27/gun-sales-face-uncertain-future-thanks-president-trumps-support-industry/459862002/

        • Molly 15.4.1.1
          17 March 2019 at 12:45 pm

          … yes, another link said that it appears the Trump presidency has reassured gun owners that law changes will not follow events, and so the rush to purchase doesn’t occur.

          It is sad to witness this phenomenon in New Zealand though. But reinforces that some New Zealanders do have the same mindsets that we consider to belong to first second amendment fanatics in the States. (Thanks, Andre!) They are part of us.

          • Andre 15.4.1.1.1
            17 March 2019 at 12:48 pm

            Err, think you mean Second Amendment. First Amendment is freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly etc.

          • Sabine 15.4.1.1.2
            17 March 2019 at 12:58 pm

            i think it has more to do with the one being a black man and the other being a white man for white men with economic anxiety (TM).

            • Andre 15.4.1.1.2.1
              17 March 2019 at 1:09 pm

              I vaguely recall the same kind of shit happening in the nineties with Clinton and the assault weapons ban.

              But then some nutters thought Clinton was the first black president, so maybe you’re right.

              • Sabine …
                17 March 2019 at 1:45 pm

                well he certainly was not a NRA approved, godly, evangelic, gun toting ammosexual President.

        • Macro 15.4.1.2
          17 March 2019 at 6:43 pm

          Apparently gun sales rocket under Democrat Presidents and slump under Repugnant Presidents – the reason?
          Gun lovers fear that there will be clamp downs on buying guns under a Democrat administration, so rush in and buy up large before restrictions come in – a bit like our property speculators here – buy up or sell off depending on whether Nats of Lab likely to be in power. Under Repugnants there is no such “threat” so they are sanguine about it all, and gun sales drop.

  16. arkie 16
    17 March 2019 at 12:10 pm

    Jamie Wall on the Crusaders brand

    They can’t continue to be called the Crusaders, for no other reason than the fact that the man who killed 50 people with an assault rifle believed in perpetuating the conflict they are named after. It is now poison, pure and simple. Whatever gain made by keeping it will be completely overshadowed by the stigma attached to it forever.

    There’s no point dragging it out, either. This is a no-brainer, like the way that Native American named teams in the US should have been renamed years ago. It’s not in any way unprecedented either, teams have changed both their names and home locations in almost every major professional sport.

    It’s no one at the Crusaders’ fault that they are named that way. Not the players, not the staff. But that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t change, and change now.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/sport/384900/the-crusaders-have-to-change-their-name-and-change-it-now

    • mauī 16.1
      17 March 2019 at 1:07 pm

      Yeah he’s right, this is one of the best things we could do as a country to help I think. It would be a huge test of our character. To show we will change our culture/identity to keep you safe.

      • marty mars 16.1.1
        17 March 2019 at 1:56 pm

        Agree. It is stupid insensitive lazy branding that many opposed in the first place for the EXACT same reason as today. Get rid of it pronto.

        • In Vino 16.1.1.1
          17 March 2019 at 7:21 pm

          Yes, I agree, but the sad point is that so many Kiwis are so ignorant of what the original Crusaders actually did, their utter barbarism… They still think that a crusade is for something good.
          We also need a big TV education campaign. Replaying Palin’s doco over all channels at prime time might help, but I fear that we have too many meatheads with no attention span, that the education thing becomes difficult.
          I hate TV commercials, but maybe we need to stoop so low as to explain the evils of Crusaders through TV ads that interrupt and destroy the quality of TV programmes.
          As ALL TV ads do.
          Grrr..

  17. CLEANGREEN 17
    17 March 2019 at 12:21 pm

    Latest on RNZ confirmation of the shooter Brendon Tarrant was a member of the Christchurch Bruce gun club and the president says he never raised any concerns of the two years he was a member.

    • I feel love 17.1
      17 March 2019 at 12:32 pm

      Makes ya wonder what the gun shooting personality baseline is and whether this guy is a reliable judge of character. I may be a bit harsh but these guys (& by extension the rest of us) have been complacent too long. Up thread there’s a stuff report that a shooter laid a complaint with the police about this particular gun club and now police are denying complaint was made. Edit : sorry I see it’s a different gun club.

      • Gabby 17.1.1
        17 March 2019 at 4:31 pm

        Shatpant might just be a devious little shit of course. I’ve been fooled by many devious little shits I’ll admit.

    • James 17.2
      17 March 2019 at 1:41 pm

      Why stop at the gun club ? No issues were raised by anybody that had contact with him.

      • I feel love 17.2.1
        17 March 2019 at 2:36 pm

        Because the gun club issue is the one highlighted in this current sub thread. Duh.

    • Pat 17.3
      17 March 2019 at 2:07 pm

      The Milton (south of Dunedin) based rifle club

  18. Cinny 18
    17 March 2019 at 2:01 pm

    Question please.. does anyone have experience with different writing scripts?

    The script on the weapon…. is that Theban?

  19. joe90 19
    17 March 2019 at 2:45 pm

    Hate, an American export.

    In the immediate aftermath of last week’s white nationalist terrorist attack on two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand that took the lives of 49 people, U.S. president minimized the scale of the problem, proclaiming that there is no systematic issue: “I think it’s a small group of people that have very, very serious problems.”

    This, however, is exactly the kind of denial and deflection that the West had criticized so forcefully when it came from Sunni Arab countries after 9/11.

    Ever since the early [aughts] ​2000s, the U.S. and Europe have rightly pressed a number of Sunni Arab countries to crack down on the internal sources of ​Islamist terrorism, arguing that their inaction on domestic extremism was putting both their own societies and people around the world at risk. We emphasized, again and again, that only a determined focus on the preachers and financiers of terrorism could staunch the threat.

    […]

    In 2016, the Council on American-Islamic Relations and the University of California at Berkeley listed 74 groups that had invested $206 million into Islamophobic projects from 2008 to 2013. These include ACT for America’s “Radicalization Map Locator,” a database of nearly every Muslim student association and mosque in the U.S. with no known links to violence, and Frank Gaffney’s campaign to show that the U.S. government has been infiltrated by the Muslim Brotherhood (it has not). Ha’aretz exposed the Diller Foundation’s backing for a range of far right groups including Geert Wilders’s Dutch anti-Muslim party. And the Center for American Progress’s Fear Inc. report mapped the sources of the $57 million invested into far right causes in 2011, including Pamela Geller’s Stop Islamization of America and David Yerushalmi’s campaign against Sharia Law in the U.S., both of promote the false notions that Islam is a threat to Western civilization and that that Obama Administration promoted Sharia.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/new-zealand-shooting-was-inspired-hate-america-exporting-we-need-ncna983936

    • adam 19.1
      17 March 2019 at 3:28 pm

      Funny when a Muslim does terrorism, all Muslims are to blame.

      But when a white guy does terrorism, we never run with the same narrative. All white people are to blame. Where are the white people condemning this, why are we not closing the borders to white people, white people and their ideology is not to be trusted., white people are naturally violent. — All sounds bloody stupid, don’t it…

      • gsays: 19.1.1
        17 March 2019 at 4:58 pm

        The ‘lone’ tag is often brayed when whitey kills.

        Reminds me of late ’90s Michael Franti, Spearhead:
        “You tried to blame an Arab but the whitey was the bomber
        You be jumpin’ to conclusions
        I think you spent your whole life watchin’ cable in seclusion
        Illusions ’bout what’s outside your door
        One nigga, two nigga, three nigga, four
        Robbing every house and every liquor store
        Run for your life, we marchin’ one million more”

        Chocolate supa highway.
        https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vOLdk2O-ez4

      • Ankerrawshark 19.1.2
        17 March 2019 at 9:19 pm

        Good point Adam

  20. greywarshark 20
    17 March 2019 at 3:59 pm

    Robert Johnson describes our day – The Walking Blues.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEsQikthT3Q
    and Eric Clapton – his version – not so much from experience.
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bEp-mTUXJk

  21. arkie 21
    17 March 2019 at 4:23 pm

    Anjum Rahman on the Islamic Women’s Council of New Zealand’s repeated anti-disrimination lobbying and the lack of action.

    Time and again, the media have asked me whether or not I was surprised that this attack happened in our country. I will explain to you why I was not surprised. I will try to convey to you my absolute blinding rage.

    I would ask you to picture this: what if the shooting had been a Muslim perpetrator, and it was 50 non-Muslim New Zealanders who had been shot? Would our community be receiving the same level of support that we have today?

    Imagine what the media commentary would have been like. We would not have been able to leave our homes, the level of retaliatory attacks on our community would have been swift and immediate, and the police would have struggled to provide any meaningful protection.

    That was the fear that we, the leadership of the Muslim community, carried in our hearts every day. That was a major reason why we put so much time and energy into begging government to help us. Attack on our community was the second reason.

    No, New Zealand media, we are not surprised. Why would we be?

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/384911/islamic-women-s-council-repeatedly-lobbied-to-stem-discrimination

    • marty mars 21.1
      17 March 2019 at 4:29 pm

      So true.

      • Jenny - How to get there? 21.1.1
        17 March 2019 at 8:31 pm

        ‘

        The Christchurch mosque shooting is ‘who we are’ – but it doesn’t have to be

        By Aaron Hendry

        https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/03/opinion-the-christchurch-mosque-shooting-is-who-we-are-but-it-doesn-t-have-to-be.html

        …..I get that at this time, in the face of such evil, such tragedy, that we want to distance ourselves from the people involved. We aren’t like this man, we would never do anything like this, we aren’t responsible.
        But, at the same time, the idea and belief that immigrants are invading our nation has been an accepted and normalised part of public discourse for some time now.

        It’s time we put a stop to that. It’s time we named it for what it is: hate speech, coated in honey.

        The Prime Minister’s words were beautiful, so let us make them true.

        Let us rid ourselves of any ideology or belief that would provide a foundation for these sorts of terrorist acts to be built on.

  22. greywarshark 22
    17 March 2019 at 4:51 pm

    Meanwhile the South China Morning Post looked at the world and its building investments and wondered – Jan 2018
    https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/2126952/global-asset-bubble-will-burst-only-question-when-and-how

    Since the global financial crisis of 2008, all major economies have kept interest rates at or close to zero and maintained large fiscal deficits. A decade of massive, synchronised monetary and fiscal stimulus has led to the greatest asset bubble in history, to the tune of about US$100 trillion, nearly 1.5 times the world’s GDP….

    The unusual longevity and resilience of high asset prices are largely because government actions, not herd behaviour in the market, are force-feeding the bubble. Government actions will lose their grip only when growth expectations crash or inflation flares up. Neither is a major risk for 2018. Hence, 2018 won’t kill the speculators of the world.

    And Forbes giving background just to refresh our memories, or provide ‘learnings’ for those of us who aren’t cool about financials.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/11/22/5086/#16a8b12f92f1
    It is clear to anyone who has studied the financial crisis of 2008 that the private sector’s drive for short-term profit was behind it….

    Derivatives were unregulated: Derivatives had become a uniquely unregulated financial instrument. They are exempt from all oversight, counter-party disclosure, exchange listing requirements, state insurance supervision and, most important, reserve requirements. This allowed AIG to write $3 trillion in derivatives while reserving precisely zero dollars against future claims….

    Derivatives exploded uncontrollably: CDOs provided the first “infinite market”; at height of crash, derivatives accounted for 3 times global economy.

  23. marty mars 23
    17 March 2019 at 5:26 pm

    Wise words from this man – Imam Dr Reza Abdul-Jabber in Invercargill

    … Let us be clear to those politicians out there, reporters, media and commentators that we need to stand up and call it out for exactly what it is.

    This is the epitome of white supremacy, of right-wing extremist hate, of racism and above all, this by definition is terrorism.

    This is what terrorism looks and feels like. Never would I have believed this would have ever taken place in a country which we all love and treasure.

    In a country which encourages religious freedom and endorses every type of diversity.

    It’s about time that we truly take a stance against every form of radical right-wing extremism, which is undeniable alive and well…

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/news/111345921/invercargill-muslim-leader-you-will-not-succeed-in-instilling-fear-and-division-in-our-hearts

  25. joe90 25
    17 March 2019 at 6:13 pm

    Poots looking after his bff Silvio.

    (ANSA) – Milan, March 15 – A Moroccan-origin model who was a key prosecution witness in the ‘Ruby’ underage prostitute trials involving ex-premier Silvio Berlusconi has died after claiming to have been poisoned.
    A murder probe has been opened, police said.
    They said she had died after a “month of agony”.
    She was awake until the end despite progressive organ failure. Imane Fadil, 34, died March 1 at the Humanitas Clinic at Rozzano near Milan where she had been admitted at the end of January.
    She told her relatives and lawyer that she was afraid she had been poisoned.
    Berlusconi was cleared of paying for sex with an underage prostitute after judges said he did not know Ruby was a minor.
    He has since been embroiled in cases of allegedly bribing witnesses to lie about the real nature of his bunga bunga sex parties.

    http://www.ansa.it/english/news/general_news/2019/03/15/ruby-witness-imane-fadil-dies-6_0e8eb349-d319-4ddf-811a-942104dfcf4e.html

  26. Pat 26
    17 March 2019 at 7:54 pm

    “It is to be hoped that our Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, allows herself to be guided by Stoltenberg’s example. To date, her handling of the Christchurch tragedy has been faultless. Her sole policy response, an uncompromising pledge to reform New Zealand’s gun laws, was focused, measured and appropriate. It will be an uphill struggle for any person or lobby group foolish enough to oppose her call for stricter regulation of firearms – especially of the semi-automatic weapons that made Tarrant’s attack so costly.”

    A well considered article. Sensibly notes that this is an attack from without and promotes the only sensible response in the face of insanity.

    https://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2019/03/what-happened-here.html

  27. Jenny - How to get there? 27
    17 March 2019 at 8:19 pm

    On Facebook.

    The First Church of Papakura

    Not once during today’s 9:15 service did any of the Elders acknowledge that the people who died in Christchurch were Muslim. The only reference to the incident was “the thing in Christchurch” and ‘the thing that happened last week”. REALLY?? Plenty of bullshit about saving gypsy kids in Romania and oh “the church to pray for this week is the Anglican Church”…REALLY???!!! How about a prayer or 50 for the people who died in Christchurch and their families?? What happened to ‘love they neighbour’ ?? …oh sorry, maybe that doesnt apply if your neighbour isn’t white or christian….

  28. mac1 28
    17 March 2019 at 9:24 pm

    I don’t know if this has been already said on the Standard, but at the end of a long day of a long weekend after a dreadful Friday, can I wish everyone a Happy St Patrick’s Day to all ethnicities, colours and creeds because as the TV programme just told us on Irish ethnicity, we humans all came out of Africa originally.

    As Rabbi Hillel said, “The rest is just commentary.”

    What he actually said this to in relation is very topical. “That which is hateful unto you do not do to your neighbour. This is the whole of the Torah, The rest is commentary. Go forth and study.”

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