Open mike 17/09/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 17th, 2020 - 149 comments
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149 comments on “Open mike 17/09/2020 ”

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  1. Smellpir 1
    17 September 2020 at 6:31 am

    Interesting article in a food industry journal overnight reporting on a pre-print (not yet reviewed) of a scientific study evaluating how long COVID-19 can live on frozen food or food packaging. The answer: up to three weeks, and the experimental design specifically tested chilled or frozen foods/packaging in light of the small, but growing, number of incidents like the Auckland outbreak.

    https://www.foodnavigator-asia.com/Article/2020/09/16/COVID-19-virus-can-survive-on-chilled-and-frozen-salmon-chicken-and-pork-for-three-weeks-Study?utm_source=meat_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=16-Sep-2020#

    Maybe the Ministry of Health shouldn't be dismissing this so quickly as a plausible explanation of the Americold outbreak.

    • Ed 1.1
      17 September 2020 at 7:05 am

      Just another reason to ban the import of meat.
      Actually the whole pandemic story has proven the consequences of our reckless and cruel animal food industry.

      https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/4/22/21228158/coronavirus-pandemic-risk-factory-farming-meat

      • Pat 1.1.1
        17 September 2020 at 10:19 am

        And a very good reason for a produce exporting country not to consider that as a method of transmission unless absolutely certain.

        • Graeme 1.1.1.1
          17 September 2020 at 10:39 am

          Frozen goods logistics is also essential for our own nourishment. Have a look at where the frozens in your freezer, and the supermarket freezer, come from. A very large proportion of it is imported. Restricting this trade will have consequences around what we eat, and how much it costs. A lot of business models from producers through to supermarkets could be challenged by this affecting a lot of what we eat.

          Will be interesting to see what changes have been made already to procedures in the coolstores, and the rest of the supply chain, and what's in the pipeline. Also what changes consumers have already made.

          • Pat 1.1.1.1.1
            17 September 2020 at 10:45 am

            Changes we are unlikely to hear about anytime soon….no one is going to speculate on this possibility without absolute certainty, the price would be too high for everyone.

            • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1.1.1.1
              17 September 2020 at 12:31 pm

              There is no absolute certainty in this. Just probabilities and the precautionary principle:

              The principle is often used by policy makers in situations where there is the possibility of harm from making a certain decision (e.g. taking a particular course of action) and conclusive evidence is not yet available.

              It implies that there is a social responsibility to protect the public from exposure to such harm, when scientific investigation has found a plausible risk. These protections should be relaxed only if further scientific findings emerge that provide sound evidence that no harm will result.

              • Andre …
                17 September 2020 at 12:44 pm

                The frequent problem with invoking the precautionary principle is its abuse by nutters to block "something I don't like but have no rational argument or evidence against". It's a tactic that's very easy to use by simply endlessly calling for more evidence without ever acknowledging the weight of evidence that has already built up on a topic.

                As touched on by the Criticisms section in your wikipedia link.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  17 September 2020 at 1:44 pm

                  There are faults in everything we come up with. We're not perfect after all.

                  That said, there is a simple solution to no rational argument or evidence against: Ignore all arguments that have no basis.

                  An opinion not based upon facts has no value and needs to be treated that way.

                  • Incognito …
                    17 September 2020 at 2:06 pm

                    An opinion not based upon facts has no value and needs to be treated that way.

                    This false dichotomy and binary ‘logic’ is one of the main reasons why many debates fail from the outset, especially the ones on or associated with contentious and complex social issues.

          • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1.1.2
            17 September 2020 at 12:29 pm

            Restricting this trade will have consequences around what we eat, and how much it costs.

            So, what you're saying is that the number of farms and farmers in NZ would decrease (as they couldn't export) and what those left would produce would greater diversification?

            This sounds good. It'd certainly be good for our environment although we'd still need better environmental protections and enforcement of those protections.

      • Draco T Bastard 1.1.2
        17 September 2020 at 12:25 pm

        Actually, this would indicate that we need to ban the import of food and the factory farming of meat here in NZ.

        • JohnSelway 1.1.2.1
          17 September 2020 at 3:52 pm

          You want to ban the import of food? Hope you aren't a fan of pineapple or coffee…

          • Draco T Bastard 1.1.2.1.1
            17 September 2020 at 5:39 pm

            Being a fan of those things means that I should be in favour of endangering others?

            • JohnSelway 1.1.2.1.1.1
              17 September 2020 at 6:32 pm

              Can’t wait until you launch a political party. Telling people they can only eat what grows here is bound to be a vote winner.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                17 September 2020 at 6:43 pm

                Apparently, telling people that they can continue to kill random people just so that they can have coffee is.

                • JohnSelway …
                  17 September 2020 at 9:05 pm

                  I’m going to regret asking because I know the answer will be asinine but in what way does importing coffee kill people?

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    18 September 2020 at 11:03 am

                    Did you miss the bit that this thread was about the potential of food to carry the covid-19 virus and this it is thus a threat vector?

        • Ed 1.1.2.2
          17 September 2020 at 7:15 pm

          Totally agreed.

          We need to ban:

          a. the import of all meat

          b. factory farming.

    • Incognito 1.2
      17 September 2020 at 11:52 am

      … in light of the small, but growing, number of incidents like the Auckland outbreak.

      Please enlighten us what “incidents” you are referring to that involve infection with the virus from frozen food packaging. Have they contract traced any cases to a frozen chicken that crossed the street?

  2. Dennis Frank 2
    17 September 2020 at 7:01 am

    Paul Buchanan reminds us that spooks spy. I spy, with my little eye, something beginning with Z:

    News that Zhenhua Data, an arm of China Zhenhua Electronics Group, itself a subsidiary of the military-connected China Electronic Information Industry Group, maintains a list of 800 New Zealanders on an “Overseas Key Information Database” that contains personal information on more than 2.4 million foreign individuals, has caused some consternation in Kiwi political circles. https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/17-09-2020/china-is-running-furtive-surveillance-of-innocents-lives-online-and-so-are-we/

    Zhenhua Data is not alone in using its private business status as a front for or complement to State intelligence-gathering operations. The US firm Palantir, co-founded by New Zealand citizen Peter Thiel with seed money provided by the CIA venture capital arm In-Q-Tel, specialises in big data analysis, including software-based analytic synergies involving data mining, AI and facial recognition technologies.

    Palantir has an office in Pipitea House, Headquarters of the GCSB and SIS, and its local clients exclusively reside within the New Zealand Intelligence Community.

    So our spooks, working hand in velvet glove with yank spooks, are busy spying. On us, on the Chinese spooks, on the Russian spooks too, no doubt. Do we get value from all that spying, funded by the taxpayer? We'll never know: the establishment prevents accountability to the public. If they've got a list of quarantine rule-breakers then they're not totally useless, eh?

    • Ad 2.1
      17 September 2020 at 7:15 am

      Tiresome false equivalence from Buchanan.

      Spying for our security is necessary.

      We contract Palantir.

      We don't contract CCP fronts.

      • gsays 2.1.1
        17 September 2020 at 7:33 am

        Our 'security' is not upheld when our spooks spy on the wrong folk, eg animal rights or peace activists groups rather than heavily armed 4chan devotees.

        • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1.1
          17 September 2020 at 12:50 pm

          Correct but that just means that we need better regulations to prevent them from doing so not that we need to do without the security apparatus.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.2
      17 September 2020 at 12:48 pm

      Do we get value from all that spying, funded by the taxpayer?

      Yes, we do.

      Perhaps you need to re-read Tsun Zu.

  3. gsays 3
    17 September 2020 at 7:29 am

    An interesting take on Progressives and the Republican party in the U.S.

    That Lincoln was not a conservative, in helping to end slavery and that he received fan mail from Karl Marx.

    There are plenty of bite size presentations from this journalist, including the US as a failed state and how policing is effective only with the consent of society.

    Mental chewing gum for me as I push a lawn mower round today.

  4. PsyclingLeft.Always 4
    17 September 2020 at 7:32 am

    Pike River widow Anna Osborne, who is also the Family Reference Group's chair, said the recovery of Pit Bottom in Stone needed strong scrutiny.

    "The families need to know that the scene examination will be done by the best experts, using the right equipment and knowledge.

    "This is an absolutely critical part of the recovery and we are being very clear with police and the recovery agency that it must be a focused effort and that there needs to be transparency to ensure families can trust the outcome."

    Sonya Rockhouse, who lost her son Ben in the explosion, said reaching Pit Bottom in Stone had been an important goal for years.

    "This is the one place likely to hold evidence crucial to seeing justice being done.

    "There are a lot of conspiracy theories floating around about Pike that have caused a lot of grief to family members. This is the chance to get a clear run at the truth."

    https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/west-coast/pike-river-mine-recovery-team-reach-critical-part

    Aye !

  5. Stuart Munro 5
    17 September 2020 at 7:33 am

    Neither the gathering of public information, nor of specific information about persons of interest is in any way different from what might be done by the most benign of states or intelligence organs. More relevant is the use to which it is put, for which we have little evidence, beyond Chinese links with our weakest and most compromised politicians.

    There is an issue of potential for abuse. Having an essentially monarchial government, Chinese policy may change very quickly if the head of state does, as it did with the incumbent declaring himself effectively president for life. But of course the same potential for abuse applies with our own intelligence organs, which monitored the Locke family exhaustively but neglected the likes of the Chch shooter.

    China may well be up to no good, and certainly shouldn't be let near politicians of weak moral character (most of them, frankly) but this bit of data is no smoking gun.

    • Peter chch 5.1
      17 September 2020 at 8:09 am

      The next two years will be interesting ones re China.

      2021 is the 100 year anniversary of the founding of the Chinese Communist Party. To celebrate the fact, Xi has repeatedly vowed that Taiwan will return to China by choice or by force by then.

      2022 is the next Chinese National Congress, at which time Xi will either be ousted by the far more moderate Li or will indeed become President for Life. Powerful incentive to invade Taiwan before then. Every dictator under pressure needs a war.

      • Peter chch 5.1.1
        17 September 2020 at 8:23 am

        re Taiwan. There was a posting on Weixin (the full Chinese version of Wechat only open to those with a Chinese ID) about two weeks ago with a reprint of a Chinese government declaration that Taiwan airspace is considered part of Chinese airspace.

        The declaration stated in clear terms that any land or air attempts to intercept Chinese aircraft flying over Taiwan would be considered terrorism. And of course Chinese fighters are now crossing Taiwanese airspace on a near daily basis . Very worrying.

        I should have saved and posted here. Have looked extensively on MSM but not a mention. As Weixin is owned by Ten Cent and Ten Cent is a Chinese government company, and given the extreme level of censorship, if it was posted it presumably had government approval.

      • Stuart Munro 5.1.2
        17 September 2020 at 8:28 am

        I've stopped following China closely – I quite liked Hu Jintao – Xi seems to exemplify negative traits.

        Taiwan must seen like a ripe durian to China – Is it better to pluck it, or wait till Trump weakens the US so much that it falls into their hands? Because Trump's presidency could really use a short victorious war about now too.

        • Peter chch 5.1.2.1
          17 September 2020 at 8:36 am

          Its not just about the US though, most of the countries bordering the South China Sea (Vietnam, Japan, even the Philippines) are affected by what China does to Taiwan and increasingly forming a combined approach. And Taiwan itself is arming up.

          It is not necessarily certain China would succeed in any action against Taiwan, as its forces are spread thinly, and already building up in Tibet so as to be altitude ready by spring for likely conflict with India over the ALOC.

          • Stuart Munro 5.1.2.1.1
            17 September 2020 at 9:04 am

            Yes – I follow the military end of things – used to use the Sprattly dispute with English classes.

            Things would not be so one-sided that US commitment of air forces would not make invasion difficult to sustain – though preventing occupation falls a long way short of preserving Taiwan.

            The Chinese navy still has a few issues, though land based aircraft could probably cover that flank to some extent over Taiwan. The US would probably prefer to avoid or limit committing ground forces, which a conflict centred around Taiwan would allow. A big question would be whether the theatre expanded, and whether merchant shipping would be affected.

            • greywarshark 5.1.2.1.1.1
              17 September 2020 at 1:50 pm

              Pity that China could not leave Taiwan as it is – a little brother going its own way and China watching how what they do. It could be a measure of how effective the communist-state is in comparison. If they let them go provided that they don't allow the USA to set up bases there, then Taiwan can always choose to do the Prodigal Son thing one day.

              If those terms were made clear to Taiwan, it could become an anomaly, also with Hong Kong. This wave of fascism going round the world is odd, and limits humanity and its intelligent expression rather than going towards greater human development, something like Maslow's pyramid. If all our thoughts are directed towards one aim, following one line, the other possibilities of thinking and actions that we and China could take get dismissed, ignored or pushed away beyond thought.

              This is an interesting thinkpiece on Maslow's thinking.
              https://socialcapitalmarkets.net/2010/10/the-pyramid-to-enlightenment-is-upside-down/
              My issues are two-fold. One is a corollary of the other, dealing with the progressive manner in which the stages of the pyramid are commonly presented. And the other is a much larger point: our tendency to target the upper stages of the pyramid in developed countries and the lower in developing countries, almost exclusively. I’ll start with the smaller, and I’ll caveat all of this with the fact that this is a “thought-in-progress”; I don’t claim to speak on the pain and potential of humanity with any greater authority than anyone else.

              The pyramid of needs is commonly framed as a stepping stone, or a linear path – a progressive hierarchy, where one step leads to the other. I heard this at the conference repeatedly, as very well intentioned entrepreneurs explained that in the US, we were enlightened at the top of the pyramid, but countries in Africa were in need of much greater and fundamental basic needs – they hadn’t advanced to the top of the pyramid yet.

              Our great thinker –
              Lord Rutherford: “We haven't got the money, so we'll have to think”.

              Greywarshark: "We're ruining our world and our humanity, so we'll have to think".

              Some more from our 'original thinker' Ernest Rutherford who expressed himself in the popular idiom we can understand:

              An alleged scientific discovery has no merit unless it can be explained to a barmaid.

              All science is either physics or stamp collecting.

              I have broken the machine and touched the ghost of matter.

              We're like children who always want to take apart watches to see how they work.

              And this, which indicates that if we want to run our country well we have to become like the scientists he describes and work at it thoughtfully together.

              Scientists are not dependent on the ideas of a single man, but on the combined wisdom of thousands of men, all thinking of the same problem, and each doing his little bit to add to the great structure of knowledge which is gradually being erected.
              https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ernest_Rutherford

    • Anne 5.2
      17 September 2020 at 10:18 am

      SM @ 5

      There is an issue of potential for abuse.

      There has been abuse of confidential information about citizens in NZ in the past. Whether it has come from officialdom or loose tongues allowing info. to get into the wrong hands is beside the point. It has happened. For the target it can be a distressing situation to be in.

      Whether China plans to use the information for unethical purposes we don't know yet. They may be doing no more than what the Five Eyes nations – and other nations – do. That is, gather information on citizens from other countries in case they may be of interest one day.

      It's been going on for umpteen decades.

      • Draco T Bastard 5.2.1
        17 September 2020 at 1:37 pm

        Whether China plans to use the information for unethical purposes we don't know yet.

        With the way China is acting I'm pretty sure we can make a valid assumption that they do, as a matter of fact, intend to.

        It's been going on for umpteen decades.

        Centuries if not longer. I'm pretty sure that Caesar would have had people watching his enemies leaders as well.

  6. Dennis Frank 6
    17 September 2020 at 7:41 am

    The James gang rode into town yesterday. Flew, actually.

    Shaw and Davidson arrived in New Plymouth off a flight from Wellington about 9.40am. He told reporters that about $2.1 billion went into the school buildings and maintenance budget this term, and while he was supportive of the work education minister Chris Hipkins had done, there were still issues that needed to be solved. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122780585/current-state-school-funding-doesnt-even-touch-the-sides-james-shaw-says

    “One of the issues is although the funding has been allocated, a lot of those schools haven’t actually seen it yet, and I can imagine that’s where some of the frustration comes from.” From the budget, more than $68 million of capital funding was spent on Taranaki school property between 2017 and 2019, and $11.75 million had been allocated to 78 schools in the region over the next two years, to accelerate school-led upgrade projects. But Shaw said the funding likely “doesn’t even touch the sides” of the needs schools have these days, and he wanted to change that.

    You mean change Grant Robertson's mind?? You & which army?

    The head of the organisation representing Taranaki secondary school principals says educators felt the co-leaders of the Green Party had listened to them… “There were some very informed opinions expressed at the meeting by members who had done their homework on the matter.” Shaw said the meeting had been “really productive”.

    “Many appreciated us taking the time to come and hear what they need from the Government next term,” he said in a text statement. “The issue of deteriorating schools from decades of neglect is a longstanding issue, and the Green Party have long called for better resourcing"

    Bipartisan neglect of infrastructure has been a deepening problem for a long time (but is even worse in the USA). Nat/Lab delinquency got institutionalised by a design flaw in representative democracy: the system rewards short-term political partisan strategising, and penalises long-term planning and policy for the common good.

    • Incognito 6.1
      17 September 2020 at 8:08 am

      The “James gang”? Are you another one who thinks that the Green Party is a one-man show? Your poor choice of words seems to suggest so.

      • Red 6.1.1
        17 September 2020 at 8:47 am

        In some ways maybe prophetic. We all know what happened to the real James gang, and Jesse himself, ( shot in the back by a member of his crew) 😊

      • Dennis Frank 6.1.2
        17 September 2020 at 8:54 am

        What we get from msm framing. They came with a couple of female organisers who set up a meeting with the Taranaki Greens late in the day, which we appreciated. About a dozen folks showed up.

        They told us the day had gone well. It was evident from the body language & natural conversational rapport between the co-leaders that the Green School thing hadn't created a rift. The effortless ease at which they slipped into just being members of our group suggests that they are each adept at connecting into new group situations. I'm therefore not surprised their sessions at the schools were well-received.

        • Incognito 6.1.2.1
          17 September 2020 at 9:36 am

          What we get from msm framing.

          Little snippets for parrots?

          • Dennis Frank 6.1.2.1.1
            17 September 2020 at 10:02 am

            Commentariat gets off on it, so gotta toss it out. In theory, the inducement then leads them into comment on the substantive issues. Gotta wait for that, sometimes.

            • Incognito 6.1.2.1.1.1
              17 September 2020 at 11:59 am

              Indeed, the Commentariat gets off on it. It is counter-productive to more substantive comments/commenting. So, why do you do it? Is confirming your bias more important than constructive debate? I do despair about you here at times, Dennis.

              • Dennis Frank …
                17 September 2020 at 12:09 pm

                What bias?? If being serious was a better option, folks would respond more when I do that, eh? I'm well aware of the contrary pattern: the more serious, the more it scares them. You can always tell by the lack of responses in those instances.

                There are dimensions of our shared reality that freak mainstreamers out and they go straight into denial. Indulging that weakness isn't a good idea when the public interest lies in engaging with what is revealed.

                Climate change and the pandemic are prime examples but the chronic bipartisan underfunding of infrastructure maintenance is another goody.

                • Incognito …
                  17 September 2020 at 12:28 pm

                  What bias??

                  Such self-deprecating wit! The irony is that you asked yourself why so few respond to your comments yet you refuse to look in the mirror and accept what you see!?

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    17 September 2020 at 12:39 pm

                    Yet again you evade the issue by being flippant. Still, you've proved my point effectively thereby. Have a nice day. 😇

                    • Incognito …
                      17 September 2020 at 12:53 pm

                      I’m sad I could confirm your bias yet again for you. Sadly, you run away from debating and potentially resolving this issue. Therefore: QED.

                • Wensleydale …
                  17 September 2020 at 1:49 pm

                  You can always tell by the lack of responses in those instances.

                  Not always. Sometimes, people don't respond because what's been posted is incredibly boring, pretentious, repetitive, nonsensical or unhinged. Sometimes, the only response a piece warrants is an eye-roll and a shake of the head. Sometimes, 'mainstreamers' aren't in denial, they just find someone incredibly dull and/or obnoxious.

                  Not always… but sometimes.

                  • woodart …
                    17 September 2020 at 2:25 pm

                    not sometimes… but often.

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      17 September 2020 at 4:03 pm

                      Leftists on social media posing as members of Retards Anonymous is nothing new. I think the public would be more impressed if they engaged the issues instead.

                      There's only so many times you can evade them by being trite or banal before other mainstreamers decide leftists are unable to get real (so they may as well vote National).

                      Connecting those dots will be a struggle, of course, but good luck with the trying…

        • Sacha 6.1.2.2
          17 September 2020 at 9:53 am

          It was evident from the body language & natural conversational rapport between the co-leaders that the Green School thing hadn't created a rift.

          So why call it 'the James gang'? You are not helping.

        • weka 6.1.2.3
          17 September 2020 at 10:02 am

          "What we get from msm framing."

          Sure, but why would you want to perpetuate it? Davidson and Shaw were both there, it's insulting to marginalise MD this way. Had your comment been about MSM framing then some pointed sarcasm might have warranted your framing, but it wasn't.

          • Dennis Frank 6.1.2.3.1
            17 September 2020 at 10:09 am

            I don't believe, based on my conversations with her, that she'd be insulted! She's got a sense of humour. 🙄

            • weka 6.1.2.3.1.1
              17 September 2020 at 10:27 am

              Still, look at the replies to your comment. No-one is talking about what you actually raised. Framing matters. I know this writing posts. If I put something in the headline or first sentence that goes against what I am writing about there's no pulling the conversation back from that.

  7. francesca 7
    17 September 2020 at 7:58 am

    The old canard of Assange recklessly revealing names of informants refuted by Daniel Ellsberg in court yesterday

    Daniel Ellsberg’s testimony this afternoon continued to tear down the prosecution’s argument that Julian recklessly released sensitive information that caused harm. Ellsberg noted that Julian “took every effort” to redact or hold back damaging information, even working with media outlets and the government in the redaction process — but that the government “would not lift a finger to help people who might be at risk” because they were more interested in building a case against Julian.

    https://assangedefense.org/

  8. Andre 8
    17 September 2020 at 9:41 am

    An interesting compare and contrast of the US election fuckery efforts by Russia, China, and Iran.

    https://www.vox.com/21418513/china-iran-us-election-meddling-russia

    tl;dr: Russia is mostly looking to sow chaos and distrust in government, and their man for that is obvious.

    China is much more focused on promoting their interests and countering the the propaganda against them, as part of the project of becoming the global dominant competitor to the US.

    Iran's efforts are mostly about their local issues – Kurds, Saudis etc.

    In general, it seems they all find it more successful to just amplify home-grown nuttery rather than trying to outright fabricate shit and inject it into the discourse.

    • Adrian Thornton 8.1
      17 September 2020 at 11:08 am

      …and as we watch from the side lines the devolution of many on the 'left' to become nothing more than hysterical mouth pieces of the establishment status quo….

      …funny how they have seamlessly morphed to become carbon copies of those they once most probably (and rightly) loudly reviled..

    • Brigid 8.2
      17 September 2020 at 12:59 pm

      Good grief.

      This article demonstrates why Trump is America's president. No evidence of interference just conjecture and conspiracy. And you and your fellow Americas seem to swallow it lock, stock and barrel, without a moment of uncertainty, as proof their election is being meddled with by the wicked Arabs, Orientals, and Commies.

      " There is no evidence any votes were changed, though another bipartisan Senate report found that in some instances, the Russians could have if they wanted to."

      'could have if they wanted to' That's hilarious!!

      Lets look at the countries whose governments have been interfered with by the United States

      "Carnegie Mellon University, has identified 62 American interventions in foreign elections between 1946 and 1989. The large majority—like Russia’s in 2016—were conducted in secret."

      https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/07/the-us-has-a-long-history-of-election-meddling/565538/

      • Andre 8.2.1
        17 September 2020 at 1:26 pm

        Talking about US fuckery in elections elsewhere in reply to a comment about foreign fuckery in US elections is at best mindless diversionary whataboutery, or possibly diversionary schadenfreude. It makes it appear you approve of fuckery in US elections.

        When there's evidence of US fuckery here or anywhere else anyone cares about, by all means raise that as a separate topic to be considered on its own merits. Because that kind of fuckery is shitty and wrong, regardless of who does it or how tainted the recipient may be.

        • Draco T Bastard 8.2.1.1
          17 September 2020 at 1:56 pm

          It makes it appear you approve of fuckery in US elections.

          No, I just say that their previous actions give the US no right to complain when it happens to them.

          And, here's the thing, the US still fuck around in other peoples elections. They have an entire NGO to do it with.

          • Andre 8.2.1.1.1
            17 September 2020 at 2:05 pm

            Where's the line between publicising it to raise awareness, and complaining about it?

            • Draco T Bastard 8.2.1.1.1.1
              17 September 2020 at 5:54 pm

              All I've seen from them so far is complaints which, as I say, they don't have a right to do because of their own previous actions. Now, if they turned round and apologised for doing it themselves and that they were going to stop doing it then they may have a valid point. But,

              Where's the line saying that they're going to stop fucking around in other nations politics?

              • Andre …
                17 September 2020 at 6:12 pm

                You might be confusing the ordinary everyday conversation meaning of complaint with criminal complaint, which is a legal term to do with starting actions against people who have broken actual laws. Which happened plenty of times for the 2016 election and quite likely is happening now, by American citizens as well as foreign actors.

                I'm fairly confident that when Americans are busted doing illegal election fuckery in other countries, they too get attention from the local law along with their local collaborators.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  17 September 2020 at 6:45 pm

                  I'm fairly confident that when Americans are busted doing illegal election fuckery in other countries, they too get attention from the local law along with their local collaborators.

                  So, according to you the USians fucking around in other countries politics is fine and its only when other countries fuck around in the USians that it isn't?

                  • Andre …
                    17 September 2020 at 6:54 pm

                    Engage your reading comprehension skills and read the whole thread. My view is expressed a few comments upthread. See if you can find it.

        • Gabby 8.2.1.2
          17 September 2020 at 5:29 pm

          More about one nation under god pissing into the wind and getting its own back.

  9. Sabine 9
    17 September 2020 at 10:49 am

    no one could have predicted this

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/122782352/i-feel-like-i-have-failed-covid19s-impact-on-kiwis-revealed-in-new-report

    The impact of Covid-19 on New Zealand has been laid bare in a Salvation Army report which found more than a third of survey respondents had suffered a hit to their income through the loss of a job.

    Their State of our Communities report, released on Thursday, was based on more than 500 interviews with residents and key community leaders from Rotorua, Queenstown and Johnsonville and found “almost everybody knew somebody that was financially impacted by Covid-19.”

    The report also found a rise in people concerned about mental health provision and housing.

    The report authors’ also found communities “crying out for serious effort to deal with a lack of mental health support, insecure housing and inadequate incomes.”

    “Any recovery and rebuilding effort from the impacts of Covid-19 must include local communities and address existing and emerging critical social and health issues, and also build on the strength already found in these communities,” said Ika.

    “In Election 2020, these real voices of communities must be listened to.”

    yeah, nah nah….the government did the best they could, no go to winz beg for some support go to get a study grant for something – anything really and learn the 'value of work', the govenrments spokes person for the poor and needy spoke last week and she said nothing much of substance and certainly is not offering any real and above all 'monetary' help. Besides, Mr. Roberston said to day that the books look scary and we have given you all the money we thought was enough for youse and now we have other priorities. After all we only need the poor every few years to vote for us.

    • RedBaronCV 9.1
      17 September 2020 at 12:44 pm

      Not good outcomes. Would be good for the interviews to have covered a wider selection of communities

      • Sabine 9.1.1
        17 September 2020 at 12:49 pm

        Well The Sally Army did at the very least send someone out to speak to people rather then not, and they covered what they covered. And non of that makes their finding less valid, less in line what people are experiencing in real live and the lack of action in regards to the finding.

  10. Dennis Frank 10
    17 September 2020 at 12:14 pm

    Recession now official: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300109161/election-2020-live-judith-collins-holds-press-conference-as-nz-falls-into-recession

    New Zealand’s June quarter GDP fell by 12.2 per cent Stats NZ has reported. The decline covers most of the period between the end of March and mid-May, when the whole country spent seven weeks in level 4 and level 3 lockdowns. New Zealand is one of the last developed countries to calculate the decline in its second-quarter GDP. The fall in average GDP within the OECD has been 10.6 per cent.

    • Pat 10.1
      17 September 2020 at 12:21 pm

      12.2%…sounds impressively accurate dosnt it?

      Wonder what number the subsequent reviews will place on it?

    • tc 10.2
      17 September 2020 at 12:23 pm

      "Collins says she understands that health and education are priorities for many voters, including many female voters. " So how about some pointed questions from the hacks about their 3 terms of underfunding health, screwing teachers over, closing schools, plummeting ratings etc ?

      • Dennis Frank 10.2.1
        17 September 2020 at 12:48 pm

        Collins again doubled down on the line that National would have "not let Covid-19 into New Zealand" as a way of saying what her party would have done differently to the Government. She said tomorrow, when National unveils its economic policy, it would show a clear difference between her party and Labour's. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12365736

        Hey Jude, don't make it bad. Take a sad song, and make it better… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_MjCqQoLLA

        • tc 10.2.1.1
          17 September 2020 at 2:05 pm

          Jude should be asked if they learned their lessons from PSA, as they let that in.

          Will someone call out this BS, they show how owned they are by letting it go as national was all for herd immunity at some point.

        • Tricledrown 10.2.1.2
          17 September 2020 at 8:25 pm

          Conservative govt's around the world have the worst records of containing Covid 19.

          A well funded public service is required to provide the healthcare levels contact tracing and economic response

    • RedBaronCV 10.3
      17 September 2020 at 12:47 pm

      It's also the rear view mirror as there is likely a solid bounce back after lockdown that we don't have the figures for. Not that the MSM or Judith will mention this.

    • Macro 10.4
      17 September 2020 at 8:32 pm

      By comparison US GDP fell 32.9% in second quarter 2020.

      Gross domestic product — the broadest measure of economic activity — shrank at an annual rate of 32.9% in the second quarter as restaurants and retailers closed their doors in a desperate effort to slow the spread of the virus, which has killed more than 150,000 people in the U.S.

      The economic shock in April, May and June was more than three times as sharp as the previous record — 10% in 1958 — and nearly four times the worst quarter during the Great Recession.

  11. Andre 11
    17 September 2020 at 1:34 pm

    What did Jenny Marcroft do to piss off Winnie so badly? Getting demoted to #17 on the list – that's harsher than what got done to Richard Tosser Prosser who only got bumped down to #15.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122800003/election-2020-nz-first-drops-sitting-mp-jenny-marcroft-to-number-17-on-list

  12. RedBaronCV 12
    17 September 2020 at 1:35 pm

    With interest rates going negative is it time to cut the banks out with a bit of farm to table lending? The idea of a $10k mortgage advance with interest of an annual meat pack has some appeal?

  13. Dennis Frank 13
    17 September 2020 at 2:19 pm

    Commentators here struggled to get their heads around it the other day. Perhaps it may help them clarify their thinking if they were to consider how experts see it…

    Ivan Diaz-Rainey, an associate professor at the University of Otago and head of the Climate and Energy Finance Group, told Newsroom the move "could be the biggest win for the Greens in this political term". He said it "will lead to more concrete action and change and investment" than the Zero Carbon Act. https://www.newsroom.co.nz/greenroom/is-this-nzs-most-significant-climate-policy

    Mark Baker-Jones, a special counsel at Simpson Grierson and the head of the firm's climate practice, was also effusive. "For me, it's probably the most significant piece of policy work that's come out of this Government," he told Newsroom.

    "The Zero Carbon Act introduced a target and [emissions] budgets and the Climate Change Commission and [the Government] reformed the Emissions Trading Scheme, they're all very, very significant and necessary, but this step towards mandating the financial disclosure of that climate-related risk is very significant because it sends such a clear message to our financial institutions and to the markets. I think it will probably have the biggest impact on Aotearoa New Zealand's efforts to reduce emissions.

    While dozens of other countries are exploring similar regimes, the Tuesday morning announcement by Climate Change Minister James Shaw makes New Zealand the first country in the world to commit to implementing one. The framework to be used was devised by the Task Force on Climate-related Financial Disclosures (TCFD), led by former Bank of England governor Mark Carney.

  14. karol121 14
    17 September 2020 at 4:43 pm

    I've just found a very scary clip on youtube that does not look like nonsense to me (as a K1W1 identity):



    This could be the type of news content and scenario we in Aot (NZ) might be likely to see in the near future if things get any worse than they are now.

    WAKE UP!

    A new strain (animal-human) of Covid_2000+ could be on it's way, and the greenhouse gases surrounding us may soon block most of our hot air from escaping.

    Maybe;

    BLOCK the damn borders!

    STOP using petroleum fuels immediately!

    GET PREPARED by purchasing gas masks right now for just in case the face masks are no longer effective!

    FOLLOW YOUR LEADERS AND GOVERNMENTAL AS BEST YOU CAN-BUT REMEMBER THAT THEY MAY NOT ALWAYS BE ABLE TO GET THROUGH TO YOU ALL!

    If you need to find a supplier of gas masks, I know of a former colleague who had the forethought and wisdom to source a manufacturer of new, full face gas masks and filters that could save ALL of you in the event of things getting even worse.

    He is not a greedy person and so I am sure that the masks would be sold at an affordable price, especially for bulk family purchases.

    And they come in a variety of colors and sizes for kids, infants and even those domestic pets you love and may soon assist to save you all from a newer form of Corona.

    With this website's approval I would endeavor to provide a link to his E-Commerce site.

    Let's be safe and kind out there.

    We may well be facing worrying times more unique than we might have ever imagined them to be.

    • Maurice 14.1
      18 September 2020 at 8:31 am

      "STOP using petroleum fuels immediately!"

      So no more fuel for extraction of raw materials for EV's

      OR feedstock for the 750 kgs of plastics and composites in each EV

      OR insulation for the wiring on EV's

      OR fuel for transport of EV's to market

      OR fuel for Bulldozers and other equipment and transport in remote areas

      Nice idea …. BUT very destructive to any changes yet to be made by other than muscle power.

      • karol121 14.1.1
        18 September 2020 at 3:50 pm

        YES!

        Entirely, Maurice. Muscle power only.

        POWER TO THE PEOPLE AND POWER TO THE ANIMALS.

        No more anything spent on EV. Not time, not resource, nothing. They are probably full of harmful EMF floating around everywhere in any case.

        Only horse & cart, horse & buggy, bicycle and tricycle research, development and resourcing should be allowed in AOTearoa (AKA Godzone).

        We need to go back about two to three hundred years when things were simple and where every inhabitant appeared charitable and community supportive with another.

        A time when they all knew who the chief was, and what their own respective roles and positions were. That is, before technology wrecked it for them all.

        Noteworthy is that there are at least 9 million electric bicycles in the category of ride and charge that we know about around the Indo-Pacific and the Pacific region already, and with just a little more CO2 emitted, we could increase this a hundred fold, so as to have bicycles that would last for decades.

        I feel that in relation to true socialism and reverting back to; "A La Naturale" transport and domestic methods, we're high on a wire with the world in our sight.

        It just takes IMAGINATION AND AOTEAROA WILL POWER! Just like in the good old days.

        There is a wealth of opportunity for peddle powered runabout and dinghy motors (additional to oars) for the foreshores, river ways and lakes. It is just that major vested interests as well as both the intelligencia and the bourgeois from our own bordered bourgs have become comfortable with the convenience of modern day technologies.

        Look at the Amish, they, at least try to walk (or ride) the talk.

        Come on K1W1, let's get our hands really dirty in the soil and get ourselves superbly fit by throwing away all of these 20th and 21st Century luxuries.

        Get governmental to seize all motor powered vehicles and convert them to emergency housing or wind powered coastal transport, which is what we have not yet done with freight containers.

        Get rid of petrol or electric lawn mowers as well.

        Build more maternity hospitals and breed like there is no tomorrow so that we can produce fine farm specimens to work the fields.

        Man, the possibilities are limitless.

        We could reserve about two thirds of arable land for grass and fodder to feed the horses, sheep and cattle with, and the remainder for growing kai (carrots and other veggies). Broccoli also. No more eating of animals either!

        Never again let any store assistant or green grocer tell us; "There is no f…… broccoli"

        The other third of arable land for orchards, berry farms and vineyards so we can produce beautiful fruits for consumption, juices, potatoes, hemp, Mary J and copious quantities of precursor alcohol product for a wealth of alcoholic beverage so that most of us can be as happy as sand boys (and sand girls).

        But it starts with US, and it starts NOW.

        Air New Zealand has taken a good first step by parking up some of it's fleet in the desert mothball fashion, and now we need a good home run (economically, perhaps a 1929 scenario) so that they will have the impetus to follow through and park the entire fleet up.

        This is surely the home grown K1W1 spirit, especially from what I've observed throughout rural NZ in small towns in and around the King Country, South Waikato and the Ruapehu District. They may talk grand tourist plans and modernization, but deep down inside they really do foster the simple life and the "back to basic" spirit and they do not really want outsiders or foreigners interfering with them and theirs doing things their way.

        Why can we not pick up our pitch forks, our shovels and our ploughshares behind the coulter?

        We can then form a massive Campaign for Modern Technology Disablement and organize hikoi as well as home guard units to repel any sod who has any intention of coming to these shores to either introduce or support any of these Technologies of Mass Destruction.

        I'm about to stop posting because I have deliberated on collecting up all of my computer related material, my entertainment equipment, all of my household appliances (including whiteware). I will consider only be keeping earthenware and greyware, and I may well gift the rest back to Mother Nature. Back to the good earth.

        We must all strive to be good earth worms, my dears.

        Live humble, live simple and let hope, faith and charity be our guiding lights (or our Matariki).

  15. The Al1en 15
    17 September 2020 at 5:34 pm

    New Zealand First aims to cut price of cigarettes to $20

    As election bribes go it's pretty low ball. At least in the past with interest free student loans and one years free tuition, there's a knock on benefit down the road that doesn't end up costing the health service budget.

    Horrible little man and nasty little party.

    • Sacha 15.1
      17 September 2020 at 5:38 pm

      Next, subsidising sherry and Best Bets..

    • McFlock 15.2
      17 September 2020 at 5:38 pm

      Saves on pensions, though.

      • The Al1en 15.2.1
        17 September 2020 at 5:43 pm

        Let's hope he won't be in a position to make it come about, or he'll have to raid the super fund to boost oncology departments and palliative care homes.

        • Sacha 15.2.1.1
          17 September 2020 at 5:44 pm

          Or 'donors' as he calls them.

        • McFlock 15.2.1.2
          17 September 2020 at 5:49 pm

          Nah, that's bollocks. If you're going to reduce it to a fiscal argument, you also have to incorporate the fact that half of smokers won't take a cent in pension money.

          Smoking is bad, m'kay. But it's good for the economy.

          • The Al1en 15.2.1.2.1
            17 September 2020 at 6:06 pm

            But we don't just measure in financial terms, do we? There's the human cost, the toll on families, the treating nurses, doctors and care home workers.

            If the argument is solely about smokers not getting their pension money, then you may have a point if that amount is transferred to health, but do you think that will happen via Winston, knowing his protector of the gold card club's assets status?

            • McFlock 15.2.1.2.1.1
              18 September 2020 at 12:31 am

              There are many good reasons against smoking. "costing the health service budget" isn't one of them.

              Getting lazy about something that should be such a slam dunk is, I believe, actually detrimental to the position. Frankly, I believe that ASH were just as willing to lie about smoking as BAT was – the "healthcare budget" bullshit made a regular apprearance. It was certainly a justification for me to ignore them when I was smoking (a pasttime I miss, but sadly not a long term plan, like the very enjoyable heavy drinking).

              And I think that on a wider perspective, making sure our arguments on an easy topic stand up to basic examination is a habit that prepares us for the difficult argument on a different subject entirely.

              • The Al1en …
                18 September 2020 at 8:42 am

                Despite the attempted smugging (lol), the financial part isn't really getting lazy in debate, as the consequences of smoking do affect the health budget all the way through treatment and palliative care. That has to be undeniable fact as much as your point that dead people don't get the pension, which is also true.

                As for making sure our arguments on easy topics stand up to basic examination, in this context, before I'd settle out of court, I'd have to see the costings for treating dying smokers against average length of payments of super, factoring in lost taxes when people get too sick to work including projected losses from the age of death til super eligibility, adding any benefit entitlements paid out along the way.

                • McFlock …
                  18 September 2020 at 1:41 pm

                  And I'd also like to see the costs for treating non-smokers intheir last twenty years or so of life, to see if there's actually a difference. Don't forget the excise, as well.

                  The health budget money comes from somewhere.

                  The idea that smokers cost money is a common trope that is frankly unsupported. And yet it's an example of "this is bad, therefore it must be bad in every aspect, so I won't check that".

          • Sacha 15.2.1.2.2
            17 September 2020 at 6:13 pm

            Finance ministers love euthanasia.

  16. PsyclingLeft.Always 16
    18 September 2020 at 8:43 am

    Rail problems

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/426300/britomart-train-station-shuts-after-cracks-found-on-tracks

    Over 2 years ago….

    "Low quality Chinese steel cannot be ruled out as the cause of a train derailment in Auckland, though KiwiRail says focusing on faulty steel rails is premature before an investigation is complete."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/103850254/chinese-steel-cant-be-ruled-out-as-cause-of-auckland-train-derailment

    I did have big debates re the neolib nats allowing sub grade Chinese "steel" into NZ. I wonder how the "Investgations" went ?

  18. Eco Maori 18
    18 September 2020 at 4:26 pm

    They are using any means to take this whanau Whare from them twisting the court once again to suppress the poorest people tangata whenua

    Link below.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300111036/crowds-gather-at-maketu-to-fight-eviction-from-inherited-land

  19. karol121 19
    18 September 2020 at 4:28 pm

    How did I get here?