Open mike 17/01/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:21 am, January 17th, 2014 - 275 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmike

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step right up to the mike …

275 comments on “Open mike 17/01/2014”

  1. amirite 1

    Good opinion piece by Derek Handley on Kim Dotcom’s new Party, in which he says that:

    “We have a government that doesn’t really listen to the people and has increasingly grown comfortable in a quasi-arrogant swagger”

    http://www.derekhandley.org/why-kim-dotcoms-internet-party-is-good-for-new-zealand/

    • BM 1.1

      Is he on Dotcoms pay roll?

      • phillip ure 1.1.1

        i don’t think he needs the money..there..bm..

        ..you thoroughly-modern/stressed-out green..you..

        ..grasping for straws..?

        ..are we..?

        phillip ure..

        • BM 1.1.1.1

          With what’s come to light over the last few days you have to be a wee bit skeptical of anyone who writes anything positive about dotcom.

          • phillip ure 1.1.1.1.1

            @ bm..

            ..what actually has ‘come to light’..?

            ..bradbury jumped to the next vehicle he thought would best achieve his personal ends..

            (that’s just what bradbury seems to do..nothing new there..

            ..past week..greens..one week mana..next week labour..the week after..dotcom..

            ..what’s next..?..the bomber bradbury party..?..

            ..bradbury certainly has loose knickers..he’s anyones’..)

            ..bradbury..with his apparant promiscuous party-hopping/easy swapping of flags….is getting more than a touch of the peter dunnes about him…eh..?..which week is it..?..which party am i in..?..)

            ..and dotcom was told he would be breaching election-laws if he threw a ‘party’..

            ..and alistair thompson has resigned from scoop..to work for dotcom..

            ..what else have i missed here..?

            ..to cause yr consternation at recent events..?

            phillip ure..

          • Morrissey 1.1.1.1.2

            BM’s been reading Cam Slater over on Whaleoil. He’s parroting the great man.

          • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 1.1.1.1.3

            @ BM

            “With what’s come to light over the last few days you have to be a wee bit skeptical of anyone who writes anything positive about dotcom.”

            Same could and has been said re John Key & National.

            Welcome to the real world BM.

          • McFlock 1.1.1.1.4

            So if they’re on KDC’s payroll, everything they write should be viewed with suspicion.

            But if they’re on the national party payroll, you’ll parrot their lines as gospel.

          • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1.1.5

            With what’s come to light over the last few days decades you have to be a wee bit skeptical of anyone who writes anything positive about dotcom National.

            FTFY

            😛

        • You_Fool 1.1.1.2

          It is the RWNJ new line to discredit KDC by implying he has brought anyone that says nice things about him… to be fair they are only assuming he is doing the same with his money as NAct and the other extreme right wing parties

        • Not a PS Staffer 1.1.1.3

          “Needing money” and “wanting money” are two very different things.
          The fact that a guy has a positive bank balance does not make him an objective commentator.

          Many many relatively well off people and well educated people are being drawn to Dotcom’s ideology of “something for nothing”.

          Greed: pure simple common greed and the lust for easy pickings is what is drawing the likes of Bradbury, Handley, Thompson and others to Dotcom’s campaign to beat extradition.

          All Labour people should keep well clear of Dotcom and his bought men.

          • phillip ure 1.1.1.3.1

            @ not ps..

            assumption piled upon pressumption..

            ..to reach the most dubious of conclusions..

            ..1/10 for elucidation of a rational argument..

            ..(what insights to peoples’ minds you must have..?

            ..have you thought of doing a stage-tour..?

            ..reading peoples’ minds..?

            ..whoar..!..)

            phillip ure..

          • Morrissey 1.1.1.3.2

            All Labour people should keep well clear of Dotcom and his bought men.

            So anyone who supports Dotcom’s entirely mainstream view that the internet should be open and free and not controlled by governments and corporations is suddenly on Dotcom’s payroll.

            Whereas the commentators who represent those corporations, and support governments snooping and spying and censoring our communications, are independent and responsible commentators.

            Got it.

            • Not a PS Staffer 1.1.1.3.2.1

              @Morrissey

              I doubt DotCom has any interest in internet access, privacy, or freedom outside of how his bank balance is swollen further by people who want to get the creative output of Artists without paying for it.
              The fact that big media companies are making massive profits does not justify direct theft by the consumer. Artists are finding better ways to retain a higher slice for themselves.

              I believe every atom in DotComs body is focused on avoiding getting deported to the US and to making more money.

              DotCom is a convicted criminal and is wanted on charges of piracy/theft. The inept performance of the FBI and the NZ Police don’t justify his efforts to make money by ripping off creative Artists.

              Bradbury was a stupid fool to work for DotCom.

              • Draco T Bastard

                DotCom is a convicted criminal and is wanted on charges of piracy/theft.

                You do understand that once people have paid their fine/been in prison for their crimes they’re considered to have paid their debt to society and to be innocent don’t you?

              • Colonial Viper

                Awesome to have you shilling for the big crony corporate apparatus

                The fact that big media companies are making massive profits does not justify direct theft by the consumer. Artists are finding better ways to retain a higher slice for themselves.

                How sure are you about that? Perhaps those “massive profits” you speak of should be viewed as theft from the community, in the first place. Rentier capitalists should always expect push back.

                When an economic system is unjust, such as the use of patents and copyright (and deals like the TPP) to crush the wealth of the commons and to crush creativity, it will eventually be the cause of its own undermining.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  +1

                  The taxpayer subsidies over the last few years for films that have been made in NZ have been high enough to get everyone in NZ into a theatre to see them.

                • Not a PS Staffer

                  @CV: “Rentier capitalists should always expect push back.” I fully agree.

                  I also believe that a disruptive action/movement is required to bring about substantive change, and that the laws protecting the owners of capital are just that.

                  However…..it stick in my craw that a self-serving git like DotCom, who has been “generous” to some of our politicians, and now journalists, should be the catalysts for this change.

      • Te Reo Putake 1.1.2

        Actually, BM has a point. Bomber, Alastair Thompson and Graeme Edgeler have all promoted or been quoted talking about Dotcom’s party without acknowledging their links. Not exactly mold breaking behaviour, is it?

        • BM 1.1.2.1

          Has David Fisher, the Herald reporter ruled himself out yet?

          • Colonial Viper 1.1.2.1.1

            He’s an excellent journo, with deep insight into the KDC case. If anything, he needs to keep on going.

        • bad12 1.1.2.2

          TRP, How many of us here at the Standard comment and/or promote particular political parties without revealing our links, if any, to those parties,

          It seems given what has so far been pointed at Bradbury et al is more the criticism of convenience, convicted and damned for a quickly thought up ‘crime that isn’t’…

          • Te Reo Putake 1.1.2.2.1

            Not the point, bad12. The 3 I mentioned were all in positions of significant influence and should not have hidden the links. You and I are not editors of a blog or a news site, nor political/legal commentators on the national news. We contribute to the debate, but we cannot control it. However, Bradbury, Thompson and Edgeler have platforms much more weighty than us mere commenters on TS and all three should have been upfront from the start.

            • karol 1.1.2.2.1.1

              I got the impression that the leaked evidence was of those 3 making some kind of submissions to KDC in its early stages – kind of like a pitch so KDC could decide if he would have them working for/with his party. The evidence did not convince me they had already signed up to work with/for the party.

              So, should such consultants make public every submission/application they make for paid contract work?

              • Te Reo Putake

                Your impression is wrong, karol. Thompson is the party secretary, Edgeler and Bradbury have apparently written proposals on a commercial basis. Bradbury has asked to be paid an ongoing salary and is considering being a candidate. I presume Edgerler has already been paid for his electorate analysis. Here at TS, we have regularly railed against WO’s blogging for cash. It’s no better when Bomber does it. Thompson, a gallery journalist, should have been upfront the moment he joined the party.

                • Jackal

                  Te Reo Putake

                  We have regularly railed against WO’s blogging for cash. It’s no better when Bomber does it.

                  Bomber submitted a proposal that Dotcom had requested. If you think he should publicly declare such talks concerning a potential position you’re badly mistaken. There is presently no conflict of interest and the right wing thrashing about like lunatics is ridiculous!

                  There is simply no comparison between Cameron Slater being paid by Ports of Auckland to leak private information and badly defame one of its workers and Bomber Bradbury having discussions with Kim Dotcom about the Internet Party. People who think otherwise need their heads examined.

                • mickysavage

                  I think Edgeler should be exempted from criticism. Hell I act for rapists and drug dealers but this does not mean that I have to believe that what they are doing is right …

                  • lprent

                    Tis the nature of lawyers. People should have the best representation available.

                    For all of my usual carping at lawyers (and police and politicians), they are essential for a society to have to function correctly.

                    Just like those people who deal with the rubbish and stop the mountains growing around people to become a public health risk, the people who provide clean water, and those who deal with effluent of all kinds.

            • bad12 1.1.2.2.1.2

              TRP, while i understand and mostly agree with the point you are making, i have to ask if most of said point is in fact not just the ‘smoke and mirrors’ of political to and fro,

              While seeing what is being accused and being personally in agreement with the accusation i have to ask tho, what are the ‘Facts’,

              How many articles prior to His outing as a ,(paid???), supporter of DotCom’s Internet Party did Bradbury actually publish in support of this Internet Party???

              That question when applied to the big player in Scoop is harder of course to apply, but, just how many articles in support of the Internet Party did Scoop publish prior to Thompson’s outing as a supporter, in the case of Scoop, with reference to Thompson’s position with that organization, that question would have to include articles in support of the Internet Party by any Scoop author including Thompson,

              The accusation made against these people is in fact the ‘smoke’, is there any proof of ‘fire’…

              • Te Reo Putake

                Well, with Thompson, clearly there is both smoke and fire. By joining the party he fatally compromised his position at Scoop. It’s not a question of articles he may have written; he was their gallery reporter and he should have known that he could not have both roles. Hence the swift resignation/sabbatical.

                Bomber has form in this area already. He has worked as a paid consultant for mana and he should have acknowledged that whenever he wrote about them out of respect for his readers. Same for his role in Dotcom’s party. He has asked for money and also to possibly represent them as a candidate. That’s something TDB readers should be told upfront.

                Edgeler, I’m less bothered about. He was interviewed about ‘treating’ and TV3 had control over whether his link to Dotcom was publicised in the news item and apparently chose not to provide that information. I’m assuming that he told them, of course.

                • bad12

                  TRP, so you cannot point to any particular article published by Scoop that promoted the Internet Party???, i am going to assume here but for the Blubber Boy blog getting in ahead of Him that Thompson would have declared His interest in the Internet Party at the point it became a registered political party,

                  In other words mere smoke being used by certain quarters to throw a hissy fit toward those who could be involved in this Internet Party,

                  Fair enough comment about Bradbury vis a vis the Mana Party, we would think that He would be polite enough to advise His readers,(although most of them obviously already know), that He has in the past been a paid consultant to the Mana Party,

                  Your comments though on Bomber vis a vis the Internet Party are a bit spurious, more smoke in other words, Bradbury might have asked to become a candidate for this Internet Party is hardly a matter of fact upon which to lynch Him,

                  You fail to point out any article that Bradbury has published or caused to be published in support of the Internet Party so in reality when you look at the ‘facts’ there is simply more smoke than actual fire…

                  • lprent

                    Fair enough comment about Bradbury vis a vis the Mana Party, we would think that He would be polite enough to advise His readers,(although most of them obviously already know), that He has in the past been a paid consultant to the Mana Party,

                    Pretty sure that he had. Certainly I knew about it and long before The Daily Blog was created. I see that he has now added the link to his profile.

                    • bad12

                      Tah for that, i don’t spend enough time over at the daily blog to have followed Bradbury’s blogging and the couple of times i have spent an hour reading there came away with the opinion that a lot of the blogging comes across as ‘the adults talking to the children’ and the means of commenting gives me the same impression,

                      That of course might be totally unfair on my part and simply an impression created by my lack of attention to that site…

                  • Te Reo Putake

                    Bad, there is a clear comparison between Bomber and WO. And in that comparison, Slater comes off much much worse. But Bomber has compromised himself by offering himself as a potential candidate (and presumably being paid for the proposal). Cameron writes to order, for cash, without disclosure. Bomber has done a pale version of that, by writing about both mana and Dotcom’s party without disclosure of his interest in both.

                    The other weird thing about Bomber’s involvement is offering to be a candidate before there is even any policy. What’s that about? A misogynist German millionaire libertarian with no history of social concern is hardly an ideal partner for advancing the revolution. More a case of “I for one welcome our new insect overloads” or “Hi, Homer, I’m Hank Scorpio”.

                    • bad12

                      Te Reo, you fail to answer the points i raise in my comment to you at 12.39, instead choosing to try and divert the debate off onto another tangent,

                      i know from what Gordon Campbell wrote,(Karol provides a link below),about what Thompson’s intentions were and here i am going to assume that Bradbury was probably going to announce His involvement,(if any in the future), at the same time Thompson was which seems to be when the Internet Party was ‘officially launched’,

                      Obviously the leak to and the publishing of this leak by Blubber Boy is what has put both Thompson and Bradbury in the position where the likes of you are more than willing to read ‘compromised’ into what in reality was an ongoing process thus promoting fracturing and schisms within the left as a whole,

                      Again i will ask you to point to the specific articles either printed personally by Thompson and Bradbury in support specifically of ‘the Internet Party’ or to any articles of the same nature they have used their realitive positions to caused to have been published even if penned by other authors…

        • veutoviper 1.1.2.3

          As I understand it, Graeme Edgeler provided some legal advice to Dotcom on a strictly lawyer/client basis.

          This article on Stuff last night also provides some clarification re the Bomber/Dotcom relationship.
          http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9616254/Dotcom-cans-Vector-party

          At the end of the article

          Internet mogul Dotcom told Fairfax Media that Bradbury was engaged as a consultant for two months last year.

          “The suggestions in the proposal are not part of our strategy. The project time with the consultant who provided the proposal was limited to 2 months. To declare this document a leak of the Internet Party strategy is simply false,” he said.

          “We are working with several political consultants with different political views, from the left to the right. We have reviewed several strategy proposals to identify the best strategy options for the Internet Party and it is an ongoing process.”

          • karol 1.1.2.3.1

            Snap – pretty much what I was thinking of re- my above comment.

            • bad12 1.1.2.3.1.1

              True Karol, Hooten is an example of what Bradbury is doing, emulating perhaps, wearing many hats Hooten seems to survive quite nicely as (a) National Party member,(b) Paid political consultant, (c) Political activist vis a vis His role in the broadband roll-out,(i have no knowledge if this is a ‘paid’ role)…

              Ps, forgot, i should add (d), wannabe politician to wee Matty’s not so long list of achievements…

              • karol

                Well Hooten is upfront about his lobbying business. I guess the likes of Bradbury and Thompson need to decide if they are politcal activists, or politcal consultants.

                What I’m seeing is Bradbury trying to move from being a grass roots activisits, to being a political commentator/journalist, and consultant – more like Brian Edwards than John Minto.

                Bradbury has done some curious swings over the alst couple of years – first he was all for Mana and the grass roots intitiatives like feeding the kids. Then he was one of Cunliffe’s biggest cheer leaders – seeing Cunliffe as the best potential for over-throwing the present government. Now he seems to be getting into KDC’s camp – to attack Key but also offer Bradbury possibilities for a role in future public broadcasting?

                Gordon Campbell on Alistair Thompson – looks to me like Thompson got caught out by the WO leak – Thompson was moving toward being explicit about his role with the Internet Party, but as the IntP was not fully launched, and trying to wait til it was ready for a full launch (I don’t think the party’s yet registered), he was wanting to keep on with his day job, til the IntP’s future was more certain.

                I don’t think that’s the same as WO’s and Hooten’s pattern of several years.

                • veutoviper

                  From Dotcom’s comments in the Stuff link I linked to and quoted at 1.1.2.3. above, my impressions are that Bradbury is probably finished in terms of any future connections to or work for the Internet Party.

                  I have no doubts that (a) Dotcom is ‘highly concerned’ (to put it mildly) that the documentation leaked to WO appears to be Bradbury’s submission to Dotcom on strategy for the IP; and (b) a lot is going on behind the scenes to identify the source and means of that leak.

                  • karol

                    Some good points, veuto.

                  • mickysavage

                    Agreed VV

                    Makes you also wonder at the strategy behind the publication of the leak. Do you get the feeling we are being played?

                    • veutoviper

                      Depends who you mean in terms of getting “the feeling we are being played.”

                      My perceptions are that Dotcom and Co were genuinely taken aback by the leak and that it came out of left field to them; and also by the ‘treating’ aspect to having the PartyParty as a joint 40th birthday celebration, launch of KDC’s latest album, AND the launch of the Internet Party. Re the latter, I am a little surprised that they had not done their homework sufficiently (eg had very detailed legal advice on the process of registering the Internet Party etc) to avoid any such hiccups.

                      What did cross my mind when the numbers of registrations for the party grew well beyond the 2000 offered, the leak occurred and the treating aspect came up was that they may have then looked initially at separating the IP launch out from the party at Vector Arena, and having the IP launch at Shed 10 earlier on Monday. (After all they had already booked – and presumably paid for – Shed 10 before they moved the party to Vector Arena.) The reason this crossed my mind was KDC’s Tweet on 14 Jan that “The Internet Party will be launched at a separate event at a separate time”. Note that he said “separate time” , not “date”.

                      In the event, obviously they really had no choice but to put off the IP Launch until they have dealt with all the issues relating to registration of the logo, the ramifications of the leak etc etc. So, no – my perceptions are that we are not being played by KDC and co, considering ‘the egg on the face’ situation for them.

                      Re the leak itself to WO, and WO’s timing in posting this – IMO yes this was obviously an attempt to play the situation. If I was in KDC’s shoes, finding the leak and plugging it would currently be my top priority. And, just my opinion, but I don’t believe for one moment that Bradbury would have knowingly been involved in the leak.

                    • veutoviper

                      Have been offline for several hours – I do have a life other than online at the TS – but just need to add that IMO. A Thompson is an even less suspect than Bradbury in terms of leaks. (HAve just had a few wines with friends, so don’t want to trust to an alcohol-impaired memory as to how to spell his first name.) I am sad that he has been smeared by what has happened, but believe that he will rise above it in terms of his history, reputation etc. Enough, Will be back when wine and sleep have taken their course to clear my mind etc.

                    • bad12

                      VV, with regards to your comment, i believe the electoral Commission, or whoever advised those proposing the Internet Party have given them an erroneous legal opinion over the ‘treating’ issue,

                      The ‘fact’ is that until the Internet Party has been officially registered with 500 members it does not for the purposes of any Act of Parliament exist, and holding a party to launch ‘the party’ in my view cannot be seen as ‘treating’ by an entity that in terms of Law does not exist,

                      Were the Internet Party to be with it’s 500 members a registered political party then of course this would make such a party ‘treating’ within the Law…

                    • Anne

                      Very good points veutoviper @ 2:47pm

                      I don’t believe for one moment that Bradbury would have knowingly been involved in the leak.

                      I agree.

                      You know what names came to my mind when I heard there had been a leak?

                      Ian Fletcher, John Key, Jordan Williams, Cameron Slater in that order.

                      It’s clear there is an election year strategy of dirty tricks, slimy deals, political hoaxes and individual set-ups in play here. John Key’s top drawer is wide open… the sleuths have been put on the trail(s)… Williams acts as an intermediary and the leaks end up in Slater’s hands. Len Brown was a slightly special case, but he was merely an entree. KDC was first on the 2014 list… and somewhere down the path it will be Cunliffe’s turn.

                      We are going to see an election year like we have never seen before. Too much is at stake and international assistance for Key and co. will be forthcoming – US govt. anyone?

                      The above scenario is by no means far fetched given what we have learned from Snowden and the mode of operations we have already witnessed from our government.

                    • veutoviper

                      As there are no reply thingees to Bad12 and Anne’s posts, just wanted to say:

                      Bad12 – excellent points re the fact that the IP is not yet a registered political party, and therefore the treating issue technically could not apply. But will leave that to the legal beagles, as I am not one. But logically, I think you are right (or should be).

                      Anne – good list; would add one – Jason Ede as an intermediary, with possible access to Key’s top drawer. (as well as cigarette butts LOL).

                      Enough – bed time, and hopefully, my cat will not drown me, my bed, and my two dogs who sleep on my bed tonight. Not that cryptic – see my comment at 17 on lprent’s post last night! Cannot remember the post title, but was also re the KDC situation. Cheers all.

                    • Anne

                      Yes veutopiper. I did remember Jason Ede but too late to include. He will be in the mix somewhere. Should be between Key and Williams.

                      It’s speculation but could be close to the truth. We,ll see.

                • bad12

                  Karol, can one not be both activist and consultant, i would add to that candidate as well but i would dare say that a success at being the latter would require the cessation of any consultancy,

                  Yes i read the Gordon Campbell article the other day which is the reason why this morning, without really knowing anything about Thompson’s motives,i find myself defending Him,

                  Perhaps the motivation of both Bradbury and Campbell fit well with my own expressed view that ‘the left’ has to keep growing possible support parties into the future to enable the formation of left-wing coalitions which is what the reality of MMP, in my opinion requires in the ongoing political process,

                  IF the above were to be the motive of both Bradbury and Thompson, then perhaps we should be showing a little more support to them, not as the Internet Party at this stage, but, for being forward thinking vis a vis Dotcoms proposed political vehicle and getting ‘in’ early to try and shape such a vehicle into something which would be a better fit in the political realm with the ‘left’ rather than the ‘right’,

                  Having said all that tho, and as pointed out by Vento below, we really need to ask ourselves could there be any point in supporting DotCom’s vehicle where the chances are, considering to who the leaked information was given, that DotCom has people working in a close working relationship with Him who also share a working close relationship with the likes of Blubber Boy or those of His ilk,

                  And yes, i have also considered that ‘a someone’ in a bid to further their ‘consultancy’ might have leaked such material to Blubber Boy simply using Him as the tool we all know He is as a means of ‘free advertising’, far fetched perhaps,but, this is politics…

                  • karol

                    can one not be both activist and consultant,

                    Well, that’s tricky to maneuvre, especially in the case of Bardbury who also is aiming to be a siginficant player in the media.

                    And, agree that there’s more to the leak than it first appeared to be.

      • veutoviper 1.1.3

        It would seem that Handley is not on Dotcom’s payroll, according to this Herald article this morning.
        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11187754

        Mr Handley does not directly endorse the Internet Party and Mr Dotcom, but says that “like him or not”, he could play an important part in the political process.

        “We have a Government that doesn’t really listen to the people and has increasingly grown comfortable in a quasi-arrogant swagger.

        “And now, here comes somebody larger than life, fearless and controversial who has decided to swagger alongside them.”

        He decried the absence of long-term thinking in Parliament, saying that most voters felt there was not “an ounce of vision within 1,000 miles of the Beehive”.

        He said Mr Dotcom would not be able to provide solutions in many areas, but he had a strong vision on a few vital policies – putting technology at the heart of the economy, universal broadband as a public service, privacy, and human rights laws which were fit for the digital age.

        “As it stands, we are heading down a dangerous spiral on all those fronts.”

        • Colonial Viper 1.1.3.1

          Excellent. A recognition that the IP is a new party with narrow interests, but those interests happen to be society shaping ones of civil rights and democratic freedoms, in an age where those are being deliberately curtailed by TPTB.

        • BM 1.1.3.2

          He decried the absence of long-term thinking in Parliament, saying that most voters felt there was not “an ounce of vision within 1,000 miles of the Beehive”.

          The majority of voters a complete fucking numpties who could find their arse using both hands and an arse map.

          That’s the reason why there’s no long term planning, the only way we’d get long term planning is if we ditched democracy.

          • Colonial Viper 1.1.3.2.1

            The nation was quite capable of long term planning 50 years ago. In fact most of that infrastructure is that our modern day economy relies upon.

            • BM 1.1.3.2.1.1

              50 years ago NZ was a monoculture every one was like robot, individuality was not a good thing back in those days.

              Those days are gone, NZ is incredibly diverse these days, makes long term planning rather difficult.

              • vto

                have you heard the one about a hole and digging BM?

              • Draco T Bastard

                50 years ago NZ was a monoculture every one was like robot, individuality was not a good thing back in those days.

                I actually think people had more individuality. These days we have to conform to what the bosses want or we don’t get jobs and thus have to live in poverty.

                Those days are gone, NZ is incredibly diverse these days, makes long term planning rather difficult.</blockquote.
                And that's just another RWNJ excuse not to do anything and to leave it to "the market" despite the fact that "the market" is obviously failing.

            • alwyn 1.1.3.2.1.2

              Ah those were the days weren’t they CV? Lets see
              – We were in the second term of a four term National Government.
              – We had a two party , pre MMP, Parliament
              – No idiot Green, ACT or Mana party MPs.
              I wonder if the changes to those facts are the cause of our current problems?
              Yes, “Those were the days, my friend
              We thought they’d never end”.

              • Colonial Viper

                Don’t forget the neoliberalisation of the economy and the destruction of public sector capabilities in favour of short term private sector profiteers.

                • alwyn

                  My, my what big big words. “neoliberalisation” indeed.
                  I do wonder sometimes how much of the planning to provide power that was done by the MOW in that era was really done to ensure the supply of electricity and how much was done to simply provide careers for the engineers in the department. It sometimes seemed to be the latter and there always had to be a new project starting as it was Buggins turn to be a Project Engineer and there were a lot of career hydo-electric engineers who had to have something to do.
                  There never seemed to be a great deal of concern for where they built a dam of course, with the sole exception of Manapouri. It certainly gave us cheaper power that the wind turbines of today.

                  • bad12

                    Alwyn, that’s the dumbest comment i have read this week, you would have to be stupid to suggest such idiocy,

                    Show me a point in time, except for the present when as a country we have had a nett surplus of electricity generation capability,

                    The Fact is that if it were not for wind turbine power we would have had to dam at least another river to ensure supply matched demand or we would have faced ongoing deficits of generation,

                    My sad lament continues, when oh when will we get a class of wing-nut commenting here that have the slightest shred of intelligence to raise their contribution above that what could be said to emanate from the Dunce’s corner…

                    • alwyn

                      Perhaps you will tell me exactly what part of the comment is what you seem to think falls into your view that it “suggest such idiocy”?
                      There was a continuous string of Hydro electric power projects in New Zealand from the mid 1930’s until about 1990. they were in both the North and South Island and employed a fairly consistent number of people throughout the period, with people moving from one project to the next.
                      I would note that I was employed by the Power Division of the MOW in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s and observed the way that the projects were planned.
                      There were, of course Coal and gas-fired thermal plants developed as well in the North Island and also Geothermal at Wairakei but the bulk of New Zealand’s electric power was, and remains, hydro-electric.
                      Did we have a surplus of power? Well obviously all the power generated was used but we tended, from the late 1970’s to become much less efficiient in terms of energy use per unit of output. This continued up until early this century.
                      Do you personally have any practical experience in the area or are you just waffling?

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Well, you’re a prime example of a self serving shit head who uses an electricity infrastructure and design completely dependent on the excellent public service work done pre-1980, yet have the gall and the audacity to diss the people who actually put it together.

                    Fuck off you little over-privileged neoliberal apologist prick.

                    • alwyn

                      As I have noted just above here I worked in the Power Division of the MOW in the 1960’s and 1970’s and saw exactly what went on. Of course I think it was excellent work that we were doing. There is nothing in what I have said that “disses” anyone involved in this work. If you think there is then please point it out.
                      After all, I have often seen proposals on this site that suggest that we should schedule work to be done in New Zealand that will continue to employ the existing work forces in companies rather than get the work done, possibly more cheaply, overseas.
                      I would have thought you would approve of such practices, that keep skilled labour forces in work, rather than break them up and have them head overseas?

                    • bad12

                      Lolz CV, well said and saved my stubby wee pinkies a walk round the keyboard wasting pixels replying to this particular wing-nut…

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    I do wonder sometimes how much of the planning to provide power that was done by the MOW in that era was really done to ensure the supply of electricity and how much was done to simply provide careers for the engineers in the department.

                    It was all done to ensure supply and nothing else. Your conspiracy theory isn’t worth the electrons it’s written with.

                    • alwyn

                      It isn’t a conspiracy theory Draco, whatever you might mean by that.
                      It is simply an observation that there probably wasn’t as much work done to decide what were the requirements for power and so on as we might like to think. There was, in my view, much more of an approach that said “We have these engineers and construction workers available. Where will we use them next” rather than “Planning says we need a certain amont of power at such and such a time and at such and such a place. We will plan to produce the power at exactly the right time to meet that need”.
                      Did you ever see that baseball movie “Field of Dreams”? Power planning was like that with its motto of “Build it and they will come”. With the MOW it was a case of “Build the hydro plant and the power will be used for something”.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      “We have these engineers and construction workers available. Where will we use them next” rather than “Planning says we need a certain amont of power at such and such a time and at such and such a place. We will plan to produce the power at exactly the right time to meet that need”.

                      There’s two points to your diatribe:
                      1.) Everyone was complaining about the lack of power generation and the brown outs which tends to indicate that we needed more power generation
                      2.) If we’ve got the engineers and we have a lack of power then economics says to use those engineers to produce more power infrastructure

                      With the MOW it was a case of “Build the hydro plant and the power will be used for something”.

                      I remember the brown outs (although I don’t think they were as bad as some of the RWNJs have made out that they were on this board).

                      I also happened to work at Telecom during the 1980s and, although I didn’t have any say in it, I do know how much planning went into building the network that we enjoy today. You, quite simply, can’t build such infrastructure without planning and without it taking up time and resources to build. Interestingly enough, “the market” actually gets rid of the planning and building as “the market” only responds to shortages – if it responds at all (more profit can be made during shortages).

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Alwyn, fuck off you are so full of shit your breath smells.

                    • Tim

                      This is actually intended for Alwyn but no reply button.
                      If as you say you were with MWD power div, then we probably crossed paths or just missed each other by a whisker. But I’m glad you appear to be acknowledging the expertise and efficiency of the work done by MWD (and its Vogel Computer Centre). DEFINATELY more efficient, cheaper and reliable than what occurs these days through privatisation and outsourcing – tickets being clipped all along the way, a developing bugger’s muddle in standards and project management activities that have occurred ever since!

                • John W

                  That shift of wealth away from the public is a fundamental understanding without which comment lacks credibility.
                  Who runs the show………..

          • vto 1.1.3.2.2

            I think the absolute opposite BM

            Would rather have laws drawn by referendums placed in malls. You discount fellow manwoman, you discount yourself. It shows in your comments.

          • bad12 1.1.3.2.3

            Thank you BM for a perfect description of yourself as a voter, we all here at the Standard have known since your first comment that you are in fact a ‘fucking numpty’

            Nice of you to provide the confirmation…

          • alwyn 1.1.3.2.4

            “Not an ounce of vision within a 1,000 miles of the beehive”
            In other words there goes the whole of New Zealand, except perhaps the Kermadec and Campbell Islands.
            Sounds about right up to that point. I don’t like the rest of your comment though.

        • karol 1.1.3.3

          Handley: We have a government that doesn’t really listen to the people and has increasingly grown comfortable in a quasi-arrogant swagger. And now, here comes somebody larger than life, fearless and controversial who has decided to swagger alongside them.

          So is the government arrogant, or only failing in attempting to be arrogant? And it’s to be welcomed that Dotcom may be able to out swagger the government, without the quasi-arrogance? So does that mean Handley thinks Dotcom will be able to do true arrogance?

  2. northshoredoc 2

    “We have a government that doesn’t really listen to the people and has increasingly grown comfortable in a quasi-arrogant swagger”

    Sounds like every NZ government I’ve ever known.

  3. tricledrown 3

    Northshorecroc.
    Right wing cynic

  4. Pasupial 4

    Speaking of people being bought to say nice things about others:

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/288434/anadarko-meet-pro-oil-group

    Although they do still seem to be haggling over the price:

    “The group aimed to ”re-establish connections” with Anadarko, and ”provide certainty to them over who is involved with our group”. “

  5. Colonial Viper 5

    Autarky: increasing sovereign independence from foreign control

    ” The ability to survive without trade or aid from other nations, for example, is not the same as the ability to reap enormous profits or grow one’s economy without trade with other nations. In other words, ‘self-sufficiency’ in terms of survival does not necessarily imply prosperity, but it does imply freedom of action without dependency on foreign approval, capital, resources, and expertise.

    Freedom of action provided by independence/autarky also implies a pivotal reduction in vulnerability to foreign control of the cost and/or availability of essentials such as food and energy, and the resulting power of providers to blackmail or influence national priorities and policies”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-01-16/what-if-nations-were-less-dependent-one-another

    • thechangeling 5.1

      I like this. Being wedded to the neo liberal trade and financial system which is controlled by the WTO, IMF and WB ensures most of us are kept much poorer, powerless and desperate than we could be. Becoming independent of that system of subjugation and subsumption allegedly means collectively we would forgo a drop in living standards initially, but we would gradually recover. If several other countries detached themselves in unison, we could begin to trade again on our own terms, and not on terms prescribed to us by rich, powerful, interconnected politically motivated bullying neo liberals.

      • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1

        If several other countries detached themselves in unison, we could begin to trade again on our own terms, and not on terms prescribed to us by rich, powerful, interconnected politically motivated bullying neo liberals.

        And that’s how it should be. Independent nations with minimal trade between them. This ensures that society is sustainable and that poverty is eliminated. The present system of massive interdependence ensures the reverse as multi-national corporations seek profit and empire building.

        • Tim 5.1.1.1

          +1.
          Think community, then local, then national, then regional, and THEN international.
          These so called ‘efficient’ markets are the reason I often see semi-trailers with logs spewing bark all over the place traversing the Rimutakas southward to service one market, whilst another semi-trailer with the exact same cargo traverses the Rimutakas northward.
          Wrong on so many levels!

  6. Sanctuary 6

    Since I am off soon to the BDO and probably won’t re-surface until Monday, I feel the need to say something important enough to carry three days.

    I have come to the conclusion that beards are the padded bra of masculinity.

    • karol 6.1

      Hmmm… I don’t think bra wearers grow their paddedness themselves. Otherwise bra wearers would need to trim their bra pads daily….. or just let them grow.

      • Pasupial 6.1.1

        You can see where; Sanct’s confusion comes from, Karol. He obviously hasn’t had much experience with woman.

    • vto 6.2

      the current wave of beards are a padded fad.

      haven’t you heard the old saying, never do business with a man with a beard

    • Tim 6.3

      Cross your heart (and hope to die)?
      Actually I’m sitting next to a Sikh this very moment who’d beg to differ.

  7. karol 7

    Is this sort of thing why Kim Dotcom’s Internet Party is considered to have most appeal to urban professional males?

    • Sanctuary 7.1

      I’d buy that for a dollar! (Robocop was on telly the other day).

      God you are such a prude Karol. Try and remember when you were young. It actually happened once you know.

      • karol 7.1.1

        Sanctuary – t’ain’t nothing to do with age and prudery – eveything to do with sexism and misogyn. Women’s breasts are not there as some passive convenience for others to play upon.

        And you know nothing about what I was like when I was young or how it compares with me now. How come you are claiming to know so much about my life?

        • Sanctuary 7.1.1.1

          Well, you said your old and whenever you comment on anything vaguely randy it is tut tut.

          But you are telling me you born fully formed, springing Nike-like from the head of a feminist Zeus (Hah! Deal with THAT juxtaposition, classical scholars!)?

          Nary an intervening period of vice before your St Augustine moment?

          🙁 <— Sad face.

          • karol 7.1.1.1.1

            I don’t comment on anything vaguely randy – I comment on sexism. There’s a difference. And it has nothing to do with age.

            Sanctuary, it’s not about me. Ad hominems do not an argument make.

            Again I say, you know nothing about my life or what I was like when I was young.

            • Sanctuary 7.1.1.1.1.1

              Calm down! Jesus. Imagine you and Russell Brand trapped in a elevator.

              • karol

                Sanctuary – do you have anything but ad hominems and personal attacks? Do you understand anything about the impact of sexism and misogyny?

                And I really don’t see what Russell Brand in an elevator has to do with anything.

              • bad12

                Sanctuary, if you want randy comment piss off to a porn site and indulge yourself, the use of which i might add has been shown to be mainly the territory of you wing-nuts…

            • marty mars 7.1.1.1.1.2

              Good on you karol for putting up (with great calmness) with this shit from sanc who doesn’t even get that he doesn’t get it. I see he has just asked you to calm down – must be time for QoT’s bingo card soon.

              • karol

                Thanks, marty – maybe QoT needs a new bingo card – only so many squares.

              • Sanctuary

                Well there is one thing Kim Dotcom has in common with the surgeons who removed your senses of humour – both are clearly German.

                Next up: Martry Mars tells us why craft beer isn’t a bad thing.

              • NZ Femme

                Yeah…there’s a bingo card springing fully formed from the head of Sanctuary emerging as we type. Let’s see…Prude! Old! Tut tut! Calm down!

        • Pasupial 7.1.1.2

          Sanctuary

          I guess monetary payment is the only way I could conceive of any woman with a modicum of self-respect wanting to spend her time with you. I don’t think a dollar would be enough though.

          • Sanctuary 7.1.1.2.1

            What a load of pompous ass.

            • Pasupial 7.1.1.2.1.1

              Sanctuary

              I’m not the one who chose to proclaim the “I’d buy that for a dollar” line from Robocop as if it was epitome of wit (it’s main point in context was demonstrating how vapid the culture of New Detroit was, but even then got irritating really quickly). I guess it’s possible that you are not some excruciating no-mate-Jake virgin, but that’s sure how you come across.

              “Since [you are] off soon to the BDO and probably won’t re-surface until Monday”, I reckon that you have to be; truly friendless, as well as clueless, to be typing away on a political blog when you should be getting your groove on. But that does presuppose social skills that you so evidently lack.

      • Rosie 7.1.2

        Sanctuary. It’s got nothing to do with being a prude. That image is just lame, sexist and you know, Benny Hill-ish.

        It”s that kind of male expression of immaturity that make women groan and roll their eyes. I see from the twitter responses that Michelle A Court didn’t find it a great big laugh either.

        And does KDC really want to be the Shane Jones of the Internet Party, if and when it forms? Does he actually want to turn off his potential female votes?

    • Colonial Viper 7.2

      Well, there is that, and also his ability to blow away dozens of opponents in CoD: Ghost multiplayer firefights.

      • karol 7.2.1

        All part of the same whole?

        Such a digital macho man!

      • Sanctuary 7.2.2

        Yeah, if Karol thinks his keyboard is scandalous, you wanna see his playstation controller.

      • QoT 7.2.3

        That’s vile slander, CV. KDC is a Modern Warfare 3 player. It’s still naff-as-fuck wish fulfilment for people with masculinity issues but god, it’s not COD:Ghosts.

    • Zorr 7.3

      I think, ultimately, the point here is that as a teenager I would have probably thought this was awesome and been all over it…

      But I’m not. I’m older. It’s not necessarily “knowing better” but realizing that such things appeal to the juvenile and I’m no longer that. If I want to feel young again, I’ll go outside and do something really crazy – not get my jollies over “it’s a keyboard on boobies!”

      • karol 7.3.1

        And you think it’d have the same meaning for teenage girls and gay guys that it would for some het guys?

        • Zorr 7.3.1.1

          hmmm… I am slightly confused as to how to interpret that but I will attempt with face value

          I don’t think it would. It forms part of the reason why I no longer even snigger at them because I am more fully aware of the consequences of the continuing promotion of such images and the damage it causes on a societal scale.

          I also think I made my original point very badly. I was trying to say that as a teenager I didn’t have anything beyond self-awareness and was very unaware of anything outside of my sphere of interest and that many teenagers (in my experience and talking over teenage experiences with acquaintances) are somewhat similar.

          Overall, I was trying to say that Kim Dotcom is throwing red meat to his voting base by appealing to all those people who haven’t advanced beyond their juvenile phase despite having advanced further in years.

          • karol 7.3.1.1.1

            Fair enough, Zorr. Kind of confirming that you see KDC’s base is young heterosexual males.

            Sanctuary, on the other hand, seemed to be claiming all/most young women would have a similar response to the KDC tweet as all/most young men.

            • Zorr 7.3.1.1.1.1

              I kind of see KDC as a giant man-child. He is capable of rational thought and building coherent arguments but ultimately everything he does is self-serving despite potential benefits for people surrounding him. I appreciate what his presence in New Zealand has done to shake up the local scene but I do not feel he is worthy of respect and most likely never will.

              In my personal opinion, someone needs to show willingness to sacrifice for reasons outside of their own advancement/gain before they become worthy of respect.

              • karol

                Yes. I agree his case has brought some important evidence to light about our surveillance services,a nd John Keyas lackey to the US corporates.

                But i’m not keen on his entry into the politcal arena – seems ultimately self-serving to me. His party may have some positive impact on the elections, but there could be as many negative impacts in the long term.

                • weka

                  I suspect that KDC is in for a steep learning curve when it comes to politics and NZ women 😉 (plus many other cultural things).

                  There was that thing about the rape jokes by KDC too http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10831624 (don’t think that’s the best account of what happened though).

                  http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/7608244/Dotcom-draws-fire-for-rape-joke-tweets

                  • karol

                    *sigh*

                    Thanks for the info, weka.

                  • Rosie

                    Geez. Like I said above, does he really want to be the Shane Jones of the Internet Party? (if and when it forms)

                    Also, this reporter quoted in the article could do with educating, especially if she is reporting on sexual assault and rape.

                    “TVNZ reporter Heather du Plessis-Allan discovered on Sunday the gag didn’t get many laughs among her Twitter followers.

                    “Wow. A full 30 people unfollowed me after I retweeted Kim Dotcom. Not much love for the man out there?” “

                    • weka

                      It probably wasn’t as bad as that Herald article looks. I can’t remember exactly how it played out, but from what I remember he did some stupid, ignorant sexist tweeting, then apologised. So I’m not sure he is in the same bracket as Jones, he probably does have the capacity to learn, even if it is just being more politcaly savvy.

                      The thing about his party’s voter base being young male tech-lovers, if that includes the geek sector, just look at the huge amount of misogyny there (not sure that misogyny is a strong enough word though).

                      It will be interesting to see young male geek culture meet NZ political culture where you can’t really get away with being shit to women.

                      Having said all that, I was in the bush for a couple of days and just caught up with the whole IP thing last night. The thing that stands out most to me is how much time is being spent on a party that hasn’t even been launched yet, we don’t know what its political objectives are really, and its already involved in a couple of fairly serious messes. Bizarre.

                    • karol

                      weka, part of it sems to me to do with KDC being able to stimulate a lot of media coverage. The other is his ambiguous position re capitalism, corporatism and Internet surveillance. There’s a diversity of views as to where KDC stands poliically, and how his party would impact on the elections – his is indicative of some fracture points in NZ politics.

                      All that is bound to genrate a lot of discussion.

                      And the minor parties are looking to be the wild cards in the coming election – so many of them jockeying for position. An indication that NZ politics is going though some kind of transition, but with no certainty of the outcome/s.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I don’t think that there is any ambiguity in his internet positions. He is against totalitarian internet surveillance as it exists today, he is rolling out end to end encryption for his users to help push back against such surveillance, and he is definitely against corporate and corporate copyright control of the internet.

                      Re: capitalism – I’m sure he has no problem with run of the mill capitalism per se, but he has also learnt the hard way that the corporate crony government sponsored capitalism that we live under is no good for anyone – him included.

                    • weka

                      Karol and CV, I just found it interesting that there was so much speculation when the party hasn’t even been formed yet. And the comments in one of the standard’s threads the other day seemed overwhelmingly to support the idea that the party would get right wing votes (implication that it wouldn’t get left wong ones).

                • Will@Welly

                  karol – I see KDC playing the Bob Jones/New Zealand Party card in this years election if he goes through with his threat. The spoiler. He will disrupt National wherever he can, after all they betrayed him. He donated to John Banks, and in eyes at the time, that would have been the same as donating to National.
                  Whether he wins seats or not, is immaterial, after one term he will disband the Party – too hard, no fun, and if he can escape the charges being brought by the C.I.A., then KDC will see it as a job well done.
                  I think he will genuinely seek to strengthen NZ’s broadband, after all a strong network is useful to him. I think he will also engage with a lot of the youth not currently being engaged by the mainstream political parties. That in itself is not a bad thing.

              • McFlock

                man-child is an excellent description – there was a british TV series of that name, bloody funny, but the lead characters have a lot in common with kdc.

  8. I feel zero sympathy for this creature

    A North Texas man who paid US$350,000 for the right to hunt an endangered African black rhino said he’s had to hire full-time security due to death threats after his name was leaked onto the Internet.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11187897

    • are you a vegan marty..?

      ..or is it:..’kill rhino bad’..

      ..’kill cow good – me eat..!..’..

      ..is it the ‘endangered’ that riles you..?

      ..so if we had black rhinos thundering across the waikato in abundance..

      ..rhino-veal..?

      ..y’know..!..’cos the babies taste that much nicer..eh..?

      ..or are you one of those (small)-dicks with a gun..?

      ..whose grasping at masculinity must entail killing..?

      ..and you are saying you feel ‘zero sympathy’ for the rhinos..?

      ..yr statement made with such fervour .. is unclear..

      ..in a few areas..

      phillip ure..

      • marty mars 8.1.1

        fuck you dick

        not that I have to justify anything to you but…

        I haven’t eaten meat for over 33 years.

        as for the statement – it was deliberately ambiguous for fun and as a flytrap – looks like I caught one lol

        • phillip ure 8.1.1.1

          @ marty..

          //still guzzling down the bye-products tho..eh..?

          ..and as animal-welfare seems to be the issue you are arguing..

          ..pray tell the difference..?

          ..between eating the flesh..and eating the bye-products..?

          ..(that is if animal-welfare is a reason you haven’t eaten meat in 33 yrs..

          ..and you do know that most cheese has rennet in it..eh..?..as a binder..?

          ..and that rennet is processed calves’-guts..?

          ..you do know that..?

          ..so…

          ..as i said..what exactly is the difference..?

          phillip ure..

          • vto 8.1.1.1.1

            fluffy bunny syndrome

          • Zorr 8.1.1.1.2

            You should go for Vegan Pope

            You’ve got the self-righteous sanctimony nailed

            • weka 8.1.1.1.2.1

              Nah he should become a Breatharian. So much more scope for being a sanctimonious, pious git.

              • Zorr

                I’m a Level 5 Vegan – I won’t eat anything that casts a shadow

                • Chooky

                  worms?….chookies eat worms….does that mean you are a chook?

                  ….but worms are meat and have faces….so that must mean a level 5 Vegan eats dirt?

                • weka

                  “I’m a Level 5 Vegan – I won’t eat anything that casts a shadow”

                  Ok, well in that case anything you ever say about anything trumps phil every single time, because you are obviously the king of kings when it comes to ethics, and ethics are absolutely absolute, so you can never be wrong and all underlings must bow to your superior knowledge of rightness and wrongness, eh? 🙂

                  Except, hang on, you realise that everytime you swallow you kill untold numbers of bacteria, drowning them in the cruel acid bath in your stomach?! Sorry mate, you will have to try harder.

              • heh..!.

                …weka…the green you have –

                – when you aren’t having a green..eh..?

                phillip ure..

            • phillip ure 8.1.1.1.2.2

              nuthin’ to with me..zorr..

              ..(deeply flawed creature..me..eh..?..definitely not pope-material..)

              ..it’s actually about the animals..eh..?

              ..those institutional-cruelties most care little about..

              ..and talk about even less..

              ..’cos they just want to feed their flesh-addiction..

              ..and often..people like marty..(who have (admirably) forsaken flesh..)

              ..aren’t even aware that the cheese they love so much..

              ..has calves’-guts in it..

              (so..essentially..they are still eating meat..how can they not be..?..)

              ..did you know that..?..about the calves-guts in cheese..?

              ..does that disturb you at all..?

              ..(and it’s also a health heads-up/alert..

              ..’cos both meat and dairy can give you cancer..)

              ..does that disturb you at all..?

              ..phillip ure..

              • BM

                Having a steak and cheese sandwich for lunch

                Woo Hooo, double cow.

                • @bm..can i suggest some shots of vodka with that..?

                  ..followed by a couple of ciggies..?

                  ..and then a big bowl of sugar ‘n fat marketed as ‘ice-cream’..?

                  ..seeing you are so resolutely marching down that particular ‘healthy-lunch’ road..

                  ..’woo-hoo’..eh..?..

                  .that’ll all have ya feeling really good..

                  ..eh..?

                  ..shame about yr bowel tho..eh..?

                  ..never mind..!..think/worry about that later..eh..?

                  phillip ure..

              • Zorr

                And oxygen causes irreversible damage to your body through natural mechanisms… something is always killing you and it’s just a question of how much risk you’re happy with and where you spend your “risk budget”

                And no, it doesn’t. Not in the least.

                The problem you face Philip is that you assume that because you have some small amount of knowledge that if someone else only knew what you knew, then they would change the way they live their life. In fact, what you end up doing is ignoring the way other people see the world in your single minded quest to set the world “right” and alienate anyone who might share some common viewpoints.

                I personally have issues with the way that Big Farming works and the inhumane treatment of stock in barns and cages and, as much as I can, I try to mitigate this by making informed and principled food purchasing decisions. This is something we could potentially agree on – if you weren’t such a radical extremist who is completely unwilling to accept other views of the world as tenable.

                • @ zorr..(snigger..!)..

                  ..do you (sometimes) buy organic/’free-range’-eggs….?

                  (btw..you do know that ‘free-range’ egg-peddlers..no matter how funky/down-home they may be..they still macerate..

                  ..you do know what macerating is..don’t you..?

                  ..i’d like to see you fit that reality into yr..’ informed and principled food purchasing decisions’..eh..?..)

                  pray tell us yr ‘ informed and principled food purchasing decisions’..

                  ..what criterea do you use..to make that (lofty) claim about yrslf..?

                  ..and yes..zorr..i am very aware that my arguing this case alienates most..

                  ..(some of whom who may support other arguments i present..and so overall..shutting up about that wd help my overall case..)

                  ..but..y’know..!

                  ..if my words/arguments/fact-presentations..cause one person to think..again..

                  ..and to stop hurting the fucken animals..(when they don’t need to..)

                  ..that outweighs all other considerations/priorities..

                  ..that’s just the way it is..

                  ..(and i’d swap all my other ’causes’..for serious movement on that one..)

                  ..so..

                  ..phillip ure..

                  • Zorr

                    I was going to write a giant post of the ways in which I am trying to reduce my footprint and make ethical choices for my philosophy – but then I realized that you wouldn’t actually read it. You’d just skim it for more opportunities to get your rant on regarding “animal cruelty” and “oh those poor fluffy bunnies”

                    You want to know something about fluffy bunnies? They taste good. I have spent many years developing my personal philosophy regarding life, the universe and everything and I’m not going to further waste my time now by trying to justify my eating choices to someone who isn’t even interested in listening.

                    I have known your type for too long. You will always claim that the choices you make are better and that there is always something more to be done to meet your personal goals. Guess what? I don’t share your goals and, from the sounds of it, no-one else here does and the more you open your mouth to distance yourself, the less likely anyone will.

                    • so..zorr..still just basically denying you are an addict..eh..?

                      …and were you to write..unlike yr claim..i wd read..as i am fascinated by the pretzel-shapes carnivorous-greens/(self-regarding)’ planet-carers’ twist themselves into..

                      ..to (try to) justify getting other people to torture/kill animals..just so they can eat their flesh/feed their addiction..

                      .and the selective-nature of their green-ness..eh..?

                      ..the rest of yr comment is just ad-homs..

                      ..and yes..i feel no need to apolgise for the ‘better choice’ of not eating flesh/animal-bye-products..

                      ..so yes..’I have known your type for too long’..

                      ..eh..?..

                      ..have you met metiria turei..?..co-leader of the greens..?

                      ..lover of wrapping body in dead-animal skins..?

                      ..and needing tissues to wipe the pig-fat from her lips..

                      ..i am sure you would have much in common..

                      ..in yr ‘green-ness’..

                      ..eh..?

                      phillip ure..

                    • Zorr

                      Wow… just… wow…

                      I don’t need to tie myself in pretzels. I like meat. I like the byproducts of the animals that produce my meat. I would like the meat that I eat to be treated as humanely as possible prior to it being horribly slaughtered and fed to me. And then, if possible, on top of that – I would like it to be farmed sustainably in such a way that the life cycle of the animal feeds positively back in to the ecosystem at the farm rather than stressing the environs.

                      All you reveal in that last diatribe is how bile-filled and poisonous your personal world view is. In all honesty, you scare me because you strike me as a very dangerous extremist because if your words here are any indication of your internal monologue…

                    • weka

                      Zorr, I think your last 3 comments are spot on. I would add too, that the knowledge that phil has is incomplete and highly selective and drenched in confirmation bias. This also prevents him from being able to discuss, explore and learn on these issues. A kind of ethical cul de sac, and very boring to boot.

                      Phil is a zealot. It’s the intellectual dishonesty that bothers me.

                      btw, phil, those aren’t ad hominems. They’re observations about how you argue here, which are entirely pertinent to the debate. You make ethical claims, but the way you make them ensures there can be no meaningful conversation about ethics and animals and life.

                    • @ zorr..

                      “..I would like the meat that I eat to be treated as humanely as possible prior to it being horribly slaughtered and fed to me..”

                      so..this is the extent of yr…’ informed and principled food purchasing decisions’.

                      …eh..?

                      summarising:..’if i like it..nothing else matters..’

                      ..right ho..!

                      ..heh..!

                      phillip ure..

                    • Zorr

                      I like meat. I have no moral qualms about killing and eating animals. I have thought about it and decided where my priorities and principles lie.

                      Your behavior is the most abusive that I have experienced on this site because engaging with you is like signing up to be punched in the face for breathing.

                      There is nothing anyone can say except “I agree phil, you are 100% correct” that will make you shut up and even then I suspect you’d find something wrong. Maybe they don’t format their diatribes similarly or something. Or not enough full stops… or something… whoar (should I add more full stops here or not?)

                      So yeah – you are completely unwilling to participate in honest discussion where it is necessary to accept that everyone is capable of engaging with the topic and have their own viewpoint on the issue.

                      I don’t know if this makes me masochistic… or stupid… or both… for continuing to engage with you…

                    • QoT

                      There is a type of person who chooses to engage in a difficult, denialist lifestyle and can only be made happy by ramming that lifestyle down everyone’s throats.

                      What’s interesting is that they’re unable to enjoy life, but hyper-focus on every additional self-hating day they can squeeze out of their mortal lifespans.

                      It’s like the super-rich who will never be able to spend every dollar they currently have, but are compelled to get more and more and more utterly useless wealth.

                      Of course, that’s their choice, I just wish they’d stop trying to fucking bully other people into joining their cult of life-denial.

                  • Chooky

                    what does ‘macerate’ mean?….my Mother has hens and they are very happy little hens , who scratch around in her garden every day ….and then go and lay eggs in the nest boxes…which my Mother collects and shares them around the family ….the chooks are happy and everyone is happy

                    btw phil ….I dont mind you going on and on about Veganism….it is quite interesting and i admire vegetarians and Vegans…..the only way you can change the world on this is to entice people into that way of eating and living….maybe 3 weeks holiday in Southern India would do it for some ie live on the beautiful cuisine there….maybe classes in schools etc on vegetarian/vegan cooking?….night classes will have to wait because Nact has killed them

                    • weka

                      Doesn’t matter Chooky, you are still evil in phil’s eyes, because there are no ethical choices to be made except being completely vegan. Which of course is a crock of shit, when you look at the damage that veganism does.

                    • @ chooky..

                      ..male chicks on all egg-farm.

                      ..even from those caring/sharing/free-range/farmers-market hippie-type ones…

                      ..are all fed into the macerator..

                      ..which grinds them up..

                      ..while they are still alive..(it makes a ‘zzzttt!!’-sound..as it eats them..eh..?..)

                      ..(you didn’t know that..?

                      ..was that still ‘sunny-sides-up’..?..)

                      phillip ure..

                    • weka

                      btw phil ….I dont mind you going on and on about Veganism….it is quite interesting and i admire vegetarians and Vegans…..the only way you can change the world on this is to entice people into that way of eating and living….maybe 3 weeks holiday in Southern India would do it for some ie live on the beautiful cuisine there….maybe classes in schools etc on vegetarian/vegan cooking?….night classes will have to wait because Nact has killed them

                      Problem is, being vegan, or even vegetarian, isn’t an ethical choice for most people if you take in the whole planet. Should we be considering only the welfare of the animals? Which animals? Is it all animals, or only the ones we deem important? How does AGW factor into this? What about the new emerging sciences that show an degree of complexity that equates to consciousness? How do we determine which life forms are worthy of our ethics and which aren’t?

                      What is ethical to eat is going to depend on where we live. Telling all the industrialised worlds to become vegan is akin to giving up on AGW mitigation. Eating vegan is highly polluting because of the reliance on monocropping and excessive food miles. It’s not hard to demonstrate the complexity of the ethics of eating, using veganism as an example. We just can’t do that with phil in the room.

                      My own btw is that I don’t have a problem with individuals who choose to be vegan. All power to them if it works. I do have a problem if they claim that they are the pinnacle of ethical choices, because that is just plainly incorrect.

                    • NZ Femme

                      Ditto @ chooky Re: Mum and happy hens with egg sharing. I have no idea what macerating means/is. The eggs are lovely though. Very yellow yolks.

                      Incidentally, a couple of the hens were “rescue” hens from a battery hen farm that were destined for the chop. They didn’t know what to do with themselves initially. They had to be taken out of the hen house in the morning because otherwise they would just sit inside all day. Same thing in the evening – pick them up and pop them back inside. After about two weeks they were up and about with the rest of the chooks scratching away happily.

                    • McFlock

                      macerator is basically a blender.
                      Pretty quick.

                      I’d prefer it over, for example, reading phil’s comments for twenty hours a day (a fate that seems almost equivalent to being in the audience of a Vogon poetry recital).

                    • Zorr

                      @weka – exactly

                      I have tried to raise this point multiple times to Phil in the past and every time got the same response. As I have always stated, veganism is a dietary choice that is only available to those in affluent nations because the required food infrastructure to support it is only available in such locations.

                    • NZ Femme

                      @ McFlock. Ok. Well, the only blender my mum owns is reserved for margaritas. And sometimes Pina Coladas if she’s feeling fancy.

                    • no weka..you aren’t ‘evil’..

                      ..on this subject..you are just ignorant..

                      ..and of course..you are an addict..

                      ..furiously writhing against the fact/realities of yr addiction..

                      ..(you should have heard me way-back…acting-out when it was suggested it might be better if i didn’t start each day with a hypodermic-syringe filled with a mix of heroin/cocaine..

                      ..’but..!..but..!..’..i spluttered…

                      ..it’s what i do..!..

                      ..and i’ve been doing it for so long..

                      ..i can’t imagine life without it..!’..)

                      ..addictions are funny like that..

                      ..denial is an essential ingredient in any happy addiction..

                      phillip ure..

                    • @..weka..

                      “..Problem is, being vegan, or even vegetarian, isn’t an ethical choice for most people if you take in the whole planet. ..”

                      ..unsure what you mean by that..the sentence doesn’t make any sense..

                      ..why is it not an ‘ethical-choice’..?..what stops it being that..?

                      “….Should we be considering only the welfare of the animals? Which animals? Is it all animals, or only the ones we deem important?..”

                      basically..eat none of them..or their bye-products..

                      ..why fuck around with ‘does it have eye of newt in it..?

                      ..i eat everything except etc etc..'”

                      “..How does AGW factor into this?..

                      ..well..the vegan-stool has three-legs..help yrsly..help the animals..help the planet..

                      ..are you seriously trying to suggest that raising meat is the most efficient use of land..?

                      ..seriously..?

                      ..got any facts/figures/links to back up that claim..?

                      ..’cos you and others have said that before..that vegan is worse than meat..’cos of mono-culturing’..?

                      ..what the fuck is meat..if not mono-cultering..?..(f.f.s..!..)

                      “.. What about the new emerging sciences that show an degree of complexity that equates to consciousness? How do we determine which life forms are worthy of our ethics and which aren’t?..”

                      it that the ‘but don’t vegetables cry when they are cut bullshit..?..

                      ..this setting a new benchmark in equivalence ..?..

                      “..What is ethical to eat is going to depend on where we live..”

                      is that the ‘but i am nanook of the north..!..i must eat whale-meat!’ excuse..?

                      ..seriously..?

                      ..got any examples..(that may pertain to what you do..?..not nanoo..?.. )

                      “..Telling all the industrialised worlds to become vegan is akin to giving up on AGW mitigation. Eating vegan is highly polluting because of the reliance on monocropping and excessive food miles..”

                      as noted above..complete and utter bullshit…

                      ..show us some stats/facts to prove me wrong..eh..?

                      ..instead of just repeating yr orifice-pluck..

                      ..phillip ure..

                    • McFlock

                      for someone who doesn’t use animal by-products, you certainly seem to have an inexhaustible supply of bullshit.

                    • qot (above) get’s quote of the thread..

                      ..being a vegan is ‘a cult of life-denial’..

                      ..hilarious..!

                      ..now..that can have two meanings..

                      ..and both ‘deliver’..

                      1)..i wd think that killing animals to eat them is a tad more ‘life-denying’..than being a vegan..eh..?..heh..!

                      (just saying..!..)

                      ..or..2)..you are positing that a life be hardly worth living..

                      ..without pig-fat running down yr chin..(can be said in accent of choice..)

                      ..and that my life must be devoid of any ‘fun’..’cos i don’t do pig-fat..

                      ..you are about as fucken evolved as a mollusc..eh..?

                      ..but funny with it..eh..?

                      ..i’m laughing like a fucken drain here..

                      ..chrs 4 the belly-maasage..

                      ..phillip ure..

                    • Zorr

                      @phillip

                      Why is it that only females have pig fat running down their chins? So far you have only used that phrase twice… once when mentioning Metiria Turei and now when addressing QoT. The implications are… disturbing…

                      You don’t listen to others. You don’t respect others opinions. Yet somehow you have gotten us all to try engage with you. Congratulations on epic troll threads – because that is all you are.

                    • QoT

                      Don’t misquote me, phillip. I didn’t say veganism was a cult of life-denial. But fuck knows you act like it is.

                    • @ qot..

                      ..how exactly was i ‘miss-quoting’ you..

                      “..There is a type of person who chooses to engage in a difficult, denialist lifestyle and can only be made happy by ramming that lifestyle down everyone’s throats.

                      What’s interesting is that they’re unable to enjoy life, but hyper-focus on every additional self-hating day they can squeeze out of their mortal lifespans..”

                      ..was that not addressed to/at me..?

                      ..if not me..who..?

                      phillip ure..

                    • McFlock

                      I was actually going to have a pretty small dinner tonight, no cooking and maybe bread would be the only thing phil could judge me on.

                      Fuck it.
                      I’m gonna buy a steak.

                    • QoT

                      Phillip, you used quotation marks to imply that I said “being a vegan” was the same as being part of a life-denying cult.

                      This is incorrect, because (a) that’s not what I said and (b) I am talking about *you*. Not all vegans. Just you and your constant nasty jibes at people who you get a boner browbeating with your moral superiority.

                      And I’m nice enough to not assume all vegans are pushy shits like you.

                    • you know the funny thing about you..qot..?

                      ..on so many subjects you set yrslf up as the arbiter of standards etc..eh..?

                      ..and hector others/lessr-beings for perceived failures..

                      ..how do you carry around the motes in yr eyes on this subject..eh..?

                      ..they must be so heavy..

                      ..you bang on about oppression..

                      ..but clearly have no problems with animals being tortured/killed..

                      ..just so you can eat them..

                      ..(are you at all aware of the horrors they suffer..?

                      ..how about you stop just fucken thinking about yrslf for five minutes..

                      ..you sound just like a whining/bleeting/self-pitying fucken junkie..

                      ..i’ve seen enough of them to know onw when it pops up..

                      ..you..quot..are an addict..

                      ..you are addicting to animal-flesh/bye-products..

                      ..they will likely give you fucken cancer..

                      ..and just me pointing out the news that both meat and dairy cause cancer..

                      ..sends you into a spewing/cursing rage..

                      ..just ad hominems..you and that fucken claytons green weka..just fuken ad homs..thru this whole thread..

                      ..but that’s ok..readers can see yr words..they can make their own judgements..

                      ..and just a fucken fact/reality check for you..

                      ..i do a news-aggregation website..

                      ..the news came thru on the 27th of december that for the first time..it can be stated clearly..

                      ..that dairy can give you cancer..

                      ..should i not have fucken told you all..?

                      ..i am only the messanger here..eh..?

                      ..trying to give you a heads-up that you might be giving yrslves/yr children..fucken cancer..

                      ..do i deserve this spewing fucken abuse for doing that..?

                      ..are you such a blind fucken.in denial addict..

                      ..that you just don’t care..?

                      ..are you really that fucken stupid..?

                      ..phillip ure…

                    • Zorr

                      “Phillip enters frothing rage. More news at 11”

                      I find it amusing how he has been criticized by almost everyone in this thread but he still continues to single out the identified females (QoT and weka) within his comments and doesn’t pull the same shit with myself, McFlock or marty mars.

                      Anyway, it has been amusing to watch an extremist vegan descend in to rabid frothing extremist crazy.

                      Hey Phil, PETA’s on the line – they’ve got a few jobs for you.

                      One of my rules for life – never trust an extremist… on either side.

                    • McFlock

                      ..you are addicting to animal-flesh/bye-products..

                      ..they will likely give you fucken cancer..

                      Are you seriously claiming that >50% of people who eat meat or byproducts will get cancer as a result?

                      Because the one article you indirectly brought up about meat and cancer sure as shit didn’t say that.

                    • weka

                      “..just ad hominems..you and that fucken claytons green weka..just fuken ad homs..thru this whole thread..”

                      Lolz, ok, that’s actually quite funny.

              • @ phil
                yeah well while you were still fisting the KFC in dick I was forsaking the flesh and now you, who have seen the light (well done you – slow clap indeed) after so much pig-fat and chicken-fat has graced your lips and fingertips, can go all sanctimonious because you’ve seen the light eh? You have a long way to go and your born-again preaching is funny from someone who used to salivate so much when the sizzle of pig and chicken fat went on the barbie eh?

                • yes..marty..i was raised on meat/veg etc..

                  ..and i used to sallivate over the smell of meat..

                  ..(the smell of smack cooking in a spoon (a unique odor..that i can still summon up..so many years later..)..will also do that for a heroin-addict..eh..?

                  ..which is my point..meat/dairy consumption is an addiction..

                  ..(when the idea of stopping something sends you into a panic/cold-sweat..and you crave..

                  ..and you suffer withdrawals..?

                  ..these are the benchmarks of addiction..)

                  ..can you not see that..?

                  ..there are no other food-groups..that if you were told caused cancer..that you wouldn’t drop in a shot..

                  ..but you are addicted/you are an addict..

                  ..which explains the overwrought-reactions to having this reality pushed up into yr (and other(s) face(s)..

                  ..and re yr timeline-claims..

                  ..we both stopped eating flesh at about the same time..(and good on you..!..most vegetarians are there for the best of reasons..(be they be health/animal-welfare/save the planet)..

                  ..and i have nothing to say against those motivations..

                  ..it is usually/often a matter of awareness/knowledge..

                  ..like i noted earlier..many vegetarians would not know the cheese they love so much/are addicted to.. has calves’-guts in it..so they are still eating animal-flesh..it’s just been hidden in the cheese..)

                  ..and i stopped eating the cheese/animal-bye-products about 15 yrs ago..

                  ..and when vegetarian..i thought vegans were ‘a bit weird’/taking things ‘a bit too far’..

                  ..and you know how not eating flesh makes/made you feel better..?

                  ..the benefits in personal well-being from making that final severing of the animal-product dependency..

                  ..far outweighs the benefits from going from carnivore to dairy-dependent vego..

                  ..i thought you (and other vegetarians) should know that..

                  ..phillip ure..

                  • “..and i have nothing to say against those motivations..”

                    Funny, that is not what you said in your initial response to my post above – try being honest phil instead of pretending

                    All vegetarians that I have met know about rennet ffs

                    Your wee crusade to turn everyone vegan is just based on your own guilt and the sooner you front up to that the sooner you will grow up into the potential human you could be – until then, sadly, you are living in a deluded paradise in that steel and concrete city you call home

                    • “..All vegetarians that I have met know about rennet ffs..”

                      so why don’t you just eat veal..?

                      ..what is the fucken difference..?

                      ..(when as a vegatarian i found that out..i only ever ate rennet-free..(i think!..)

                      ..and ‘heh..!..’guilt’..?

                      ..whoar..!..i was raised a catholic..so have institutional-guilt built in..eh..?

                      ..but no..i don’t feel my ‘wee crusade’ is based on ‘guilt’ from past carnivorous-endeavours..eh..?

                      ..like i said..

                      ..i want the torture/killing of all those animals to stop..it’s as simple as that..

                      ..(the cancer-causing/planet-killing factors are less..tho’ still strong..)

                      ..and it’s a big task/ask..i know..(as my efforts here prove..)

                      ..but i’ll just keep on plugging away..

                      ..’cos..y’know what..?

                      ..everyday there are more vegans..

                      ..not less..

                      ..and this is all good..

                      ..(and the cancer-causing news about dairy..will just hasten that process/progress..)

                      ..get on the right side of history..eh marty..?

                      phillip ure..

                    • dick this is what you wrote to my post about the irony of the rhino killer feeling a bit uneasy being on the wrong end of the gun

                      are you a vegan marty..?..or is it:..’kill rhino bad’….’kill cow good – me eat..!..’….is it the ‘endangered’ that riles you..?..so if we had black rhinos thundering across the waikato in abundance….rhino-veal..?..y’know..!..’cos the babies taste that much nicer..eh..?..or are you one of those (small)-dicks with a gun..?..whose grasping at masculinity must entail killing..?..and you are saying you feel ‘zero sympathy’ for the rhinos..?..yr statement made with such fervour .. is unclear….in a few areas..

                      see, you went off half cocked so that you could try to be the big internet man – I call that visible low self esteem.

                      Frankly I just don’t believe your “I care about the animals” lines – from what i have seen your ego elbows everything else out the way. As I said way up top – flytrap meet fly.

                  • Chooky

                    philip ure …just being practical here….why dont you go into the fast food vegan business and create a vegan sausage ( with vegan casing of course!) to throw on the barbecue?…it could be a big hit like ‘Pics peanut butter’…i have often tried to find such sausages to feed vegetarian people at barbecues but there dont seem to be any around

                    …horrible about all the little boy chicks going into the mincer…but I think they are developing new ways of putting them painlessly to sleep….still horrible,….once upon a time the roosters used to get the chop ( after growing up and making a pest of themselves)…this was before chicken became a multi-national multi billion dollar food business

                    keep fighting but watch it!…. all the meat eaters might come after you with a big hatchet

                    • @ chooky..

                      ..i’ve got the recipies/cooks..

                      ..i just need financing for that one..

                      ..(i also have a fairly well-honed healthy/tasty fast-food chain model to hand..)

                      ..i would love to be involved in practically-supplying ‘tasty’ solutions to the problems i highlight..

                      ..and that is a goldmine..

                      ..good quality/’easy’/tasty vegan food..

                      ..in part..because everyone can eat them..

                      ..so build a ‘brand’ that can be trusted..for content..and quality..

                      ..have a strong ethical-base..(part of cost to go to enviro-projects..etc..

                      ..and you will both make a fortune..

                      ..and be doing something really really fucken good…eh..?

                      (..that safe for all is one of the arguments i used to put to the green party..to get them to stop having fucken bbq’s..(i failed..)

                      ..(could that be more of an irony-free-zone..?..a green party/greenpeace bbq..eh..?..whoar..!..)

                      ..namely..that anyone could then be invited to a green party function..

                      ..and they could eat question/offence-free..

                      (how could that be more

                      ..and as far as quality vegan food is concerned..

                      ..that also applies to most of society..

                      ..minds are much more open to it now..(especially compared with only a couple of years ago..

                      ..(it is ‘on the table’..as it were..)

                      ..and that is most cheering..

                      ..(and..)

                      ..sorry to be the bearer of bad news….but..

                      “..but I think they are developing new ways of putting them painlessly to sleep…”

                      ..nah..!..eh..?..the macerator is a really really cheap kill..eh..?

                      ..just the electricity to run it..and a bit of oil for the macerating parts every now and then..

                      ..hard to get cheaper than that..

                      ..and that is the fact(or) with every aspect of these foul industries..(pun intended..).

                      ..is all down to the bottom-line/profit/cost..

                      ..but times are changing..

                      ..and this too will change..

                      ..phillip ure..

                    • Chooky

                      reply philip ure

                      well you should start this fast food Vegan business..’.Ure’s Vegan sausages’…to begin with..(.if I had any money i would invest in it…)…you need a big mincer for a start off….and you could trial it in your garage (as i think the pic’s peanut butter guy did and the vodka 40 degrees below man did…lots of businesses start off in a shed)

                      if I were to make a vegan sausage it would be ….beans/lentils/chickpeas , brown rice, cocoanut oil , tumeric or cumin,…and a little chillie or curry flavour, and maybe a little salt, brown sugar or molasses….all through the mincer…i am not sure what one would do for the casing

                      once the recipe is perfected you ask Mr Dot Com for some finance ( ha ha)…i have met a few German vegetarians…it could be a big hit!

                    • sounds tasty chooky..

                      ..we could call it the ‘chooky’..?..

                      ..hang on..!..maybe not..

                      ..phillip ure..

                  • Tim

                    If I may say so @ Phil (in the nicest possible way) – its all becoming a bit ridiculous now. Even the ex-junkie thing is bordering on “the only gay in the village”.
                    I think we may share a similar dim distant past (in my case until about 21 with extremel infrequent lapses) – and although (like me) you may have overcome your addiction(s) – the obsessive/compulsive shit is alive and well and becoming tedious to most others in here.
                    If the aim is to CHANGE them all – it ain’t gonna work.
                    For Christ sakes – worry about yourself! Preaching is very unattractive.

                    • “..Even the ex-junkie thing is bordering on “the only gay in the village..”

                      heh..!

                      ..that’s funny..!

                      phillip ure..

                    • Tim

                      Again – no reply button – so this is to Phill

                      ““..Even the ex-junkie thing is bordering on “the only gay in the village..”

                      heh..!

                      ..that’s funny..!

                      phillip ure..”

                      ….. yep – well you know what I mean.
                      Only because I know there appear to be a shitload of commenters on here that are in full agreement with you on most other issues (of course there are others that t – roll in and out to exercise their egos from time to time).

                      Ekshly … I suspect we may have met in passing …. ‘cept you’d be more of my brother’s vintage and ‘circulation’ somewhere in the past.

                      Keep safe!
                      xoxoxox

                  • Chooky

                    @ philip…just trying to be helpful …..you seem to be ‘flogging a dead horse’ on this site( McFlock has already gone for the steak)….so I think ‘Ure’s Vegan sausages’ …….is the way for you to go…where to put your energies (lol) … provide food and sustenance for the already converted

                    …(and no you are quite right ….the word chooky does not go with veganism)

                    • McFlock

                      had eggs too 🙂

                      no offence…

                    • Adele

                      Kiaora Chooky

                      “Ure’s Vegan Sausages”

                      In Te Reo Māori ure means penis. Perhaps a rebranding for the vegan sausage is in order.

                      Although, why would a vegan make anything to look like a sausage as the only reason sausages are shaped as they are is that traditionally the casings were made from the intestines of animals.

                    • NZ Femme

                      Adele, your comment, it’s…well..it’s gold. 🙂

                    • Chooky

                      @ Kiaora Adele…..lol ….that is interesting …..maybe a renaming is in order!!!! ha ha….could put Vegans off their vegan sausages

                      I wonder if phil knows this about ‘ure’ ….philip the penis….maybe he needs to change his name too! ( but being a Catholic….maybe he does know !……lol)

                    • @ adele..of course i know that..

                      …(i actually think it is quite funny..

                      ..and have often joked about it..(my ancestors from scotland should have turned right..and gone to australia/’i have been called that a few times in the life..(and probably deserved it..)’….etc..etc..)

                      ..and i enjoy being introduced to to reo speakers..

                      ..i watch their faces/eyes as they digest (excuse the pun) my sirname..

                      ..i have only had one laugh outright into my face..(heh..!)..

                      ..and should i need consolation over this..

                      ..i can also turn to the alternate meaning in te reo..

                      ..which is ‘power’..

                      ..’phillip power’ it is..!..(i like it..!..)

                      ..and funny story..!

                      ..the waima river used to be called the ure river..

                      ..eh..?

                      ..(i wonder what brought about that change..do any historians reading this know..?..

                      ..was it an attack of blue-stocking prurience..?..

                      ..when those missionaries/settlers realised they were living on/around..the penis-river..?

                      ..inquiring minds want to know..

                      ..and if that is the case..

                      ..i think a campaign should be started..

                      ..to restore the original/te reo name to that river..

                      ..eh..?..)

                      phillip ure..

                    • Chooky

                      …and philip is derived from lover of horse

                      From the Greek name Φιλιππος (Philippos) which means “friend of horses”, composed of the elements φιλος (philos) “friend, lover” and ‘ιππος (hippos) “horse”.

                      philip’s Ure vegan sausages…….horse lover power penis vegan sausages.!…..lol….and a marketing disaster!?

                    • the river is a real sweetie..

                      ..that river ure..

                      http://www.marlboroughonline.co.nz/index.mvc?ArticleID=66

                      phillip ure..

                    • Chooky

                      @phillip ure …damage is done….dont try and change the subject……more on the ‘Ure Vegan sausage’ name ….a marketing disaster ….except perhaps for the Chinese who may love it as an aphrodisiac instead of rare endangered tigers and other endangered wild species

                    • Adele

                      Kiaora Phil

                      The power that you speak of is associated with ‘potency.’ No point having an ure if it can’t produce the goods. Whakapapa is the source of our strength.

                      There is a place called Urenui, which still exists. Apparently, the name relates to a big chief, who was hugely endowed, tripoding his way through the rohe. Nui means big.

          • marty mars 8.1.1.1.3

            lol are you thick phil? to be making so many judgements based on what? Just remember when you were skulling the meat (and salivating like a hungry dog at the stench of fried pig and chicken fat) from the leg-bones of factory farmed chickens I wasn’t – makes you think that eh? Do you think you’re balancing out your karma somehow after all those long long years where you doggsihly gnawed on flesh? Do you think the animals you digested have forgotten?

      • McFlock 8.1.2

        Cows aren’t endangered.

        Although the entire concept of the auction is a bit like Make a Wish auctioning the right to hit one of the kids.

        • weka 8.1.2.1

          “Cows aren’t endangered.”

          In phil’s world, the individual animal you can relate to at the fluffy bynny level is more important than the species. That’s why many hardcore vegans are against pest control and would rather see bird species in NZ go extinct from stoats and possums, than have those stoat and possum populations controlled. That might be why he missed that his comparison between rhino and cows was nonsensical. Or it might just be that he has no logic where this is concerned.

          • McFlock 8.1.2.1.1

            Ah.

            Doesn’t he know that cows are dicks? All the other animals call them “big grass-eating jerks”, whereas rhinos are universally regarded as the nice guys of the savannah.

            If other animals had guns, they’d shoot cows too.

          • phillip ure 8.1.2.1.2

            @ weka..(ignoring the ad homs..)

            i concede the possum/stoat thing is ‘a rock and a hard place’..for most vegans..(esp if there for animal-welfare reasons..)

            ..and that is no different for me..

            ..i have thought about this one a bit..

            ..and feel a sterilising-drug would be the humane way to tackle the problem..

            ..the problem would be under control in one generation..

            ..(and certainly not leaving them to slowly die..with limbs crushed/trapped in jaw-toothed traps..

            ..which is one of the current ‘solutions’..one both cruel..and ultimately ineffective to a large degree..

            ..whereas a ‘drop’ of a sterilising drug.. in something tasty..

            ..would target large areas/numbers of possums..

            ..hope that clarifies that..

            (for other readers..weka..you are just a foil in all this..eh..?

            .(you do know/realise that..?..no..?..not yet..?.)

            ..so..curse/ad hom on..

            ..give it yr best shot..eh..?)

            ..phillip ure..

            • Zorr 8.1.2.1.2.1

              Please enlighten as to what kind of sterilizing drug you would use and how you would ensure it would sterilize any possums that ate it?

              Add in to that this little factoid:
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(medicine)#Pharmacological

              It may be Wiki but it is still relevant.

              Once again proving you live in some strange world of fantasy where even your answers to current issues require technology that is yet to be discovered.

              • @ sterilising possums..

                ..there is work being done on this..

                ..so it is hardly a ‘fantasy”..

                ..and wki..eh..?..going for the cutting-edge stuff..eh..?

                i would suggest increased-funding be put into that task of refining a sterilising-agent….

                ..not an unreasonable suggestion..?

                ..got a better idea..?

                ..napalm..?

                phillip ure..

                • McFlock

                  1080 works

                • Zorr

                  I’m with McFlock – 1080 or a slug. Either one is good.

                  Also, I’m not going to invest extra time when Wiki is good enough. There are plenty of things being currently “worked on” that would easily fall in to the realm of “fantasy”…

                  Such as cold fusion.

                  The point here is that you are suggesting solutions that, as of yet, don’t exist. That doesn’t really make them a solution.

                  I love how your argument style is to automatically go to the most far out suggestion when there are plenty of techniques already in use that are perfectly workable.

                  • weka

                    1080 isn’t a good long term solution either. We can do better than this.

                    • McFlock

                      definitely treatment rather than cure.
                      And there’s what the yanks like to call “collateral damage”.

                      But at least it exists.

                    • weka

                      I didn’t mean that (I don’t think we are smart enough to come up with a cure that doesn’t have significant side effects). I meant that the wholesale, whack ’em with poison, bugger the collateral damage mentality, is not leading us to sustainable solutions long term. We need to develop a meat and fur industry, one that actually works and is based on sustainability principles rather than being profit driven niche marketing.

                    • Chooky

                      If my facts are correct…..1080 is banned in Oregon….in many states of USA it is rarely or very selectively used……NZ takes 80% of the entire USA production of 1080…and USA is the only country in the world to produce 1080

                      ….so NZ plasters 80% of the worlds production of 1080 over our ‘pristine’ land

                      imo it is exterminating the kea, which is now an endangered species

      • Daveosaurus 8.1.3

        The difference you seem to be missing is that the Western black rhinoceros is now extinct. The domesticated cow does not seem to be in any imminent danger of extinction.

        Otherwise, that part of me which thinks that Colin Craig should but the hell out of consenting adults’ bedrooms, is also thinking that you would be better off butting the hell out of consenting adults’ dinner tables.

        • phillip ure 8.1.3.1

          @ dave..

          ..well..ya see dave…

          ..it’s bigger than just you or me..eh..?

          ..and funny-story..!

          ..this battle to end the slavery/killings of animals so so echoes the struggle against slavery..

          ..the two biggest arguments thrown back at the abolitionists then..

          ..was that:..it’s impossible..!..our whole economy is based on slavery..!..are you trying to wreck the country?..’

          (any of that sound familiar..?..)

          and of course what you touch on with yr admonition to ‘butt the hell out of consenting adults dinner tables’..

          ..namely:..’but we all do it/use slaves..!’…

          ..much as most just (unthinkingly) eat animal-flesh..

          ..with not a thought/concern passing through their heads of the horrible suffering behind that piece of flesh/blood/fat they are chewing on..

          ..’we all do it..!’..

          (any of that sound familiar..?..)

          ..animals are the modern-day slaves..

          ..and they suffer much worse than those human slaves did..

          ..and this is what i and many others are fighting to stop..

          ..to end this modern-day slavery..

          ..and bad news it may be..that dairy causes cancer..

          ..but it will hasten this process..

          ..and so far..to my eyes..

          ..flick-director james cameron ( vegan) is showing the/a way for our future…

          ..he has bought huge dairy-holdings in the wairarapa..

          ..and is converting them back into growing real food..

          ..and i tip my hat to him for that..

          ..we have to get rid of the mono-culture of meat/dairy..

          ..(as essentially..we are exporting cancer/death..from our animal concentration camps/factories of unbelievable horror/slaughterhouses/charnal-houses..

          ..and that has to change..

          ..and james cameron is showing the way..)

          phillip ure..

  9. tricledrown 9

    Marty Mars
    Karma is a bastard.
    Now he knows what the Rhino has to put up with.
    Instead of hunting the Rhino and Now having to pay for security .
    It would be easier just to put out a media statement saying I am not going to shoot thr Rhino but I am going to donate the money .problem solved.

    • Colonial Viper 10.1

      Electricity needs to be more specific. Transport fuel and fossil fuels for thermal will drop that number a bit.

    • joe90 10.2

      And the good people of Hamburg have had enough.

      Vattenfall has a 74.9 percent stake in the electricity grid company, Stromnetz Hamburg, while the remaining 25.1 percent belongs to the German city.

      “The value of the entire electricity grid company has preliminarily been agreed at €550 million euros,” the Swedish company said. “However, both parties have agreed on a minimum value of €495 million.”

      The transaction was a result of a popular initiative launched in 2010 by a pressure group which included environmentalists, consumer organisations, unions and local churches.

      In a referendum held last September, 50.9 percent voted in favour, while the Social Democratic mayor and the Christian Democratic Union, Germany’s largest party, had campaigned for a no-vote.

      http://www.thelocal.de/20140116/hamburg-buys-its-energy-grid-back-for-400-million

    • grumpy 10.3

      OK, but they still have thermal backup for that 50%. That needs to be kept in a complete state of readiness. Have you looked at electricity pricing in Denmark?

      In most of Denmark it is illegal to use electricity for home heating, better to burn gas instead.

      • Draco T Bastard 10.3.1

        In most of Denmark it is illegal to use electricity for home heating, better to burn gas instead.

        [citation needed]

      • McFlock 10.4.1

        “part” of what?
        It would appear that your article’s 3 year old prediction of doom has been contradicted by a three day old announcement of record supply.

  10. Rosie 11

    Apart from Crusherles “slaughtering sacred cows” I know day to day ACC services aren’t issue du jour. However I thought I’d follow up on that chat the other day about full funding for physio rehab sessions.

    I emailed Iain Lees- Gallowway and cc’d Kevin Haugue, both opposition spokespeople for ACC.

    I asked whether full funding would be reinstated and put my reasoning forward for why it should be. I also informed them of my personal experience of the loss of full funding and how detrimental this has been to my recovery.

    I received a reply the next day from Iain Lees Galloway and basically the answer is NO but it may be considered. I guess they don’t want to sound too closed to an idea that would benefit the public, in an election year. I was hoping for a YES though. This made me think of CV’s reply when he said something along the lines of no party being likely to restore full funding. Disappointing if this is the case. Really disappointing.

    Reply below:

    “I don’t think we will make a specific pre-election policy about funding for physiotherapy. But we are certainly keen to ensure everyone gets access to the treatment they need and will consider the merits of restoring full funding for physiotherapy and weigh that against other matters that need attention such as making sure more claims are accepted overall, making sure people are really able to go back to work before compensation is stopped and giving people the home help that they need. Obviously, we have been convinced of the value of fully funding physiotherapy in the past and if the evidence remains as strong it will be considered”.

    • Bearded Git 11.1

      Stopping the physio gravy train is about the only thing I agree with this government on Rosie.

      • Rosie 11.1.1

        What do you mean by “stopping the physio gravy train” Bearded Git?

        • joe90 11.1.1.1

          During the nineties I had 24 treatment sessions over two years for a work related neck problem and because my employer allowed me to attend during work hours those treatments were recorded on my time sheet.
          A couple of years later an ACC investigation showed that she had claimed for at least one session a week over that two year period so off to court she went.

          • Rosie 11.1.1.1.1

            Hi joe90. I had heard from CV the other day of physio’s who were scamming the system. (Sorry yours was one of them!) and from that I took that was the reason that charges were introduced, or should I say, sessions were no longer fully funded.

            But this is no way to deal with with scammers! Patients get punished for the crimes of their physio’s, and that is wrong. All it does is reduce patients access to treatment.

            I’m not fully convinced that the National Government reduced the subsidies simply because they wanted to make up for the loss, or as a way of controlling physio’s less than moral behaviour. It seems like an all too easy and convenient excuse when if they were fully supportive of the aims of ACC they would have instead introduced some way of monitoring physio’s client ACC claims, and ensure it was a tight scam proof system.

            Iain Lees-Galloway’s response left me feeling a little puzzled ( as well as disappointed) as to why they wouldn’t reinstate full funding. Morally, injured folk can’t just be left to suffer because they can’t afford to attend their physio appointments. I thought they would get that.

      • BM 11.1.2

        I agree.

        Physio’s can cause more harm than good.
        Really need to go back to the old system of doctor referrals.

    • karol 11.2

      Thanks, Rosie. There are some positives in the reply – accepting more claims. I’ve heard a lot of stories of people being refused any treatment, necessary surgery, etc; Not sending people back to work too early – my experience is that they focus too much on returning people to work, don’t take into account the impact of severe injuries on general well-being, and look more to getting people back to work as soon as, rather than looking at what’s best for the individual.

      But ACC currently also tend to try to limit physiotherapy as much as possible, regardless of whether people actually need it.

      No reply from Hague?

      • Rosie 11.2.1

        Hi karol, no reply from Hague as yet.

        Yes, I did see some positives in the reply but got the feeling that they may possibly be at the expense of other services. I did like the sentence “making sure people really are able to go back to work before compensation is stopped”.

        And I have also had the same experience as you previously. It’s all about work work work. They need to take a more holistic approach to the rehab for full and genuine recovery to happen, and to help prevent further occurrences in the future.

        • Will@Welly 11.2.1.1

          I got a better response when Andrew Little was the ACC spokesperson. Because you cc’d Kevin Hague, it usually takes a week or so longer for a response, than a direct approach. But you should get one. I’ve always found Kevin very good to deal with.

  11. Bearded Git 12

    The climate change disaster rolls inexorably on. This from the Graun today:

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jan/15/bp-predicts-greenhouse-emissions-rise-third

  12. captain hook 13

    I see dotcondom has resiled from his party party.
    He thinks he can take what he wants and use the ill gotten gains to buy anything or anybody.
    No. And its not his internet either. Everybody inlcuding him has to pay to use it and abide by the rules but somehow he thinks he is above it all.
    Him and wail boil together.
    Well pride comes before a fall and both of them are due for it.

  13. Plan B 14

    With Au Pair Link you also have access to 20 Hours ECE and WINZ childcare subsidies.!

    Does anybody know how this works- it looks a lot like another ‘capture by rich people’ If so I would have thought it worth going after.
    It is ‘red queen race’ stuff we have to keep on working because otherwise they will run the whole place for their own interests only

  14. Draco T Bastard 15

    So, according to the MSM business confidence is up in NZ. Meanwhile, across the ditch with one of our major trading partners, business confidence is taking a slide.

    The research found a significant decline in positive feelings about the direction of the economy in the next 12 months and next five years. There was also a small drop in the number of businesses planning to expand their businesses in the next 12 months.

    • Colonial Viper 15.1

      I’m thinking that the last half of this year is going to be a rather ugly nose dive…for many it will be just more of the same…

  15. idlegus 16

    david farrar made a joke about the tragedy in st leonards on his facebook page? jeez those righties are such ugly, despicable people.

  16. captain hook 17

    especially farrar.
    no amount of weight loss will ever disguise that fact.

  17. Meg 18

    LMAO, I have just been blocked from posting on Whale Oil for slamming him on his Len Brown coverage.

    How hilarious!!

  18. Pascal's bookie 19

    This is pretty funny, all things considered:

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/01/selection-season-upon-us/#more-123334

  19. amirite 20

    Re the vegan-vegetarian vs.carnivore/omnivore debate:

    http://www.livescience.com/24875-meat-human-brain.html

    • weka 20.1

      Thanks, that was interesting. I would add that those humans would have been eating the whole animal, not just the bits we eat today. Most of the anti-meat arguments are based on theories and research of eating modern diets, not historical ones.

    • @ amrite..

      ..seriously..?..yr link..?

      ..what a ‘crock’..!

      ..(best summed up in a comment @ the foot..(see..i did read it..)

      “..Obviously addicted to eating meat , what a load of crock.. if humans were meant to eat meat they would have a fixed jaw like a dog shorter intestine like a carnivor teeth like a shark instead of molars.. besides the biggest animals on the planet are all vegetarians… go figure!..”

      phillip ure..

    • John W 20.3

      amirite
      with due respect.
      Junk science – there is heaps of it.
      The summary is full of suppositions cascaded to illogical conclusions.
      eg. B12 levels.

      Who really funds this stuff which ignores so much evidence.

      A lot of reductionist findings often are not viewed in the bigger picture, which is always more complex and dependent on a wide perspective of understanding.

      The leading killers in Western diet appear to be heart/circulatory related disease ( including cerebral conditions including stroke ); and cancer.

      This pattern is not observed for various reasons, in populations that eat few animal products; ,but a major reason being diet.

  20. Jan 21

    Has anyone read the overheated comments Chris Trotter came out with today on the subject of the amendment to Section 59?
    Sheeesh – I don’t think he likes children!

    • Jackal 21.1

      I must say that although Trotter’s article raises a few interesting points, it is at times factually incorrect. Unfortunately this sentence is particularly misleading:

      It is, however, a crucial element of Mr Craig’s naïve political genius to instinctively “get” that the anti-smacking legislation owes nothing at all to the will of the people and everything to the unshakeable convictions of a self-righteous minority. Those who bridle at this characterisation would no doubt also dismiss the judgement of the 87.4 percent of voters who in 2009 answered “No.” to the Citizens Initiated Referendum question: “Should a smack as part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?”

      What the pro-smackers still fail to understand is that the law change wasn’t concerned with a smack as part of good parental correction. It was instead concerned with parents and caregivers getting away with severe injuries and sometimes the death of children. To quote Wikipedia:

      (The amendment) removed the legal defence of “reasonable force” for parents prosecuted for assault on their children.

      If the citizens-initiated referendum was worded correctly to relate to what the actual law change proposed, it should have said something like this:

      Should a parent or caregiver be able to injure or kill a child and get away with it because of a loophole within the current law?

      Any sane person would answer NO to this question, which along with his ridiculous claims concerning the moon landing etc clearly shows that Collin Craig isn’t fit to be a politician.

      • Jan 21.1.1

        Precisely – and passed by most of the MPs on both sides of the House who had access to the facts, not the beat-ups of an immoral and self-interested press.
        People with money and good lawyers were getting away with horse-whipping their children. At the end of the day, all the legislation did was to provide children with the same level of protection as animals

      • Draco T Bastard 21.1.2

        Should a parent or caregiver be able to injure or kill a child and get away with it because of a loophole within the current law?

        It wasn’t a loophole, it was a specific legal defense and the Greens and Labour should have been shouting that from the roof tops.

        • Jan 21.1.2.1

          Hard, if not impossible to talk sense in the face of all the heated rhetoric that was flying about. Plenty of people said it, but it’s a different story getting someone to put it into print. It was a very sensationalist topic which provided a feeding frenzy – there was a lot more heat than light on the topic, and many newspaper editors, journalists and commentators should hang their heads in shame

          • Jackal 21.1.2.1.1

            +1 It’s pretty shameful that certain publications perpetuated such a blatant untruth that essentially advocated for parents and caregivers to continue getting away with grievous bodily harm and child murder. It’s also a bit shameful that such a large amount of the New Zealand public was too stupid to realise that they were being lied to. It’s highly shameful that Collin Craig is now trying to use the publics continued misunderstanding about the so-called “anti-smacking bill” to try and gain support for the Creepy Conservatives. Somebody should let him know that being able to beat children to death and get away with it is only a tradition in a sick society.

        • phillip ure 21.1.2.2

          @ draco..yeah..they did a terrible job of selling that one..

          ..almost up there with the job the greens did selling/promotion of the medical marijuana bill..

          ..(they went for the stunned-silence approach there..eh..?

          ..it didn’t work that well..)

          phillip ure..

          • phillip ure 21.1.2.2.1

            i just gave my vegan dogs a late night/supper treat..

            ..toasted ciabatta-buns with jam and peanut on them..’

            ..most appreciative..they are..

            ..they like a ciabatta-bun with jam and peanut butter on it..

            ..eh..?

            ..aside from peanut-allergics…who doesn’t..?

            ..and funnystory..!

            ..most of the commercial breads are now vegan..

            ..(they used to all have dairy in them..)

            ..(you didn’t even notice..did you..?..

            ..little steps in the right direction..eh..?..)

            ..and it’s been a long thread..

            …i might go and smoke a joint..

            ..and listen to some music..

            ..now..

            ..eh..?

            phillip ure

            • NZ Femme 21.1.2.2.1.1

              Nope. I make I own and have for years. Very therapeutic kneading dough. And tending to my sour dough yeasty pets. (they are vegan too. like your dogs.)

  21. xtasy 22

    What is going on here on ‘The Standard’ seems to be a bit of a worry. I know it is still the holiday season, the end phase of it, but I notice that ‘Open Mike’ is getting the bulk of attention and comments, apart from very few other topics.

    I hope that soon some writers and commentators here will focus on the real issues of this election year:

    Economic policy and direction (differentiating the “left” and “progressive” from the status quo, short sighted mess);

    Social justice – with justifying and fighting for a minimum wage at $ 15 to 16 an hour, also promoting the idea of the “living wage”, and thus better incomes for those that have been neglected by this crap government;

    More social justice – by being truly inclusive and fair, and reversing the worst of the “welfare reforms” that Bennett and her lot are “celebrating” with manipulating figures and outcomes; which means, a new benefit and welfare system offering UBI or something similar, that will not be punitive, not be full of sanctions and NOT treat sick and disabled as useful “human material” to feed to greedy employers – but by truly supporting, working with and helping those in need;

    Sustainable development – by showing a clear direction in transforming NZ’s infrastructure and economy to a more sustainable, environmentally compatible, fairer and healthier economic system, that can survive and outlast the short sighted idiocy we are getting from Key, Grosser and the lot;

    Economic development – by promoting and investing in value added, more diversified production here in NZ, that offer better value export products and services, and that surely also focuses on developing the local economy, rather than keep things “ticking over”;

    Healthcare that will support the needs of the present population and also focus more on prevention of diseases and illness, same as accidents and so forth, incentivising healthy behaviour and employment, by tax or other discounts, and perhaps also levying unhealthy food and behaviour, putting a charge or sanctions on such; and I want government to stop interfering with medical science, by promoting mad “research”, which is not sufficiently fact based, by ones like the mad UK “professor” Mansel Aylward;

    By aligning NZ again with progressive countries that follow smart and constructive social, economic and various other policies, rather than blindly follow the Anglo Saxon economies like the US, Australia and so; a different strategic global policy may be called for, rather than what we have;

    Put a new focus on education, to follow ideas like those in Finland, to bring about better results. Some progress happened before, but the over focus on national standards and now even charter schools is distracting from putting more resources, ideas and manpower into the existing systems. I also would like to see the abolition of elite private schools, charging them extra for catering for high income parents or whatever, because we need more equality, need to set examples, and must have smart, talented, gifted students sit in class with those less fortunate, to help them progress, which also develops social and collective skills;

    We need a fairer tax system, which cannot just be about an intro of a CGT; we need a transaction tax, we need a higher income rate for top earners, we need to look at a reduction of GST, at least for essentials;

    There is NO place for poverty in a country rich in resources. So retail supermarkets need looking at, perhaps by introducing more competition, or by regulating some behaviour, as it is idiotic to accept that certain NZ produce can be bought cheaper in London and Frankfurt than here in Auckland;

    The environment is also paramount, and NZ is in vast areas already so destroyed, when it comes to the natural environment, it is not funny; I want more resources in bio security, in conservation, protection of species and so forth, certainly better equipped marine vessels for emergencies for oil and gas disasters; we get too much of the law being hollowed out under this government; NZ is NOT clean and green, it is a hypocrisy, and that is wrong!

    There is heaps more I would like to raise, like fairer, better worker’s protection, work safety standards to be improved, electricity and housing needing to become more affordable, and much more, but I read too little on all this here now, at least over the last few weeks.

    I would encourage those contributing here to focus on some of the above. Some do, but the slow season is nearing its end, and we must now work on election year and the issues that need addressing. I look forward to more writing here, and more commenting, as reading TS is very entertaining and also enlightening most the times.

    X

    • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 22.1

      Jolly well said Xtasy!

    • RedBaronCV 22.2

      Well said. But should the push be for roll back of only some measures “reversing the worst of the welfare reforms” incremental change or substantial structural change that the next right wing government finds harder to reverse or sell off for their own gains.

    • Chooky 22.3

      +100 xtasy…you need to get back on the case more often

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  • Covering up the cover-up
    Yesterday NZDF officials were put on the stand about the lies they had told over Operation Burnham, making implausible claims that it was all a big mistake. But along the way, we learned they had already been put on the spot about it by a previous Defence Minister, who had ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Not as important as they think they are
    Farmers have been whining a lot lately, about the methane targets in the Zero Carbon Bill, about Canterbury's proposed nitrogen limits, and about the government's new proposals to stop them from shitting in our lakes and rivers. These policies are "throwing farmers under the tractor", they will force farmers off ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Behind Every Good Woman Should Stand – Another Good Woman.
    Alone, Alone, All, All, Alone: To argue that the Prime Minister is the victim of her advisers’ failure to keep her informed may offer Jacinda some measure of exoneration – but only at the cost of casting her as a hopeless political ingénue. A star-dusted muppet, whose only purpose is to ...
    2 days ago
  • Poor quality, poorly educated kiddie ‘Journalists’ spreading fake news
    In times of hysteria about the “World coming to an end” and “rising sea levels” so-called ‘Journalists’ who can barely spell words longer than four letters are having a ball! Though the majority of the Public have worked out that manmade climate change is nothing short of pseudo-science, and the ...
    An average kiwiBy admin@averagekiwi.com
    2 days ago
  • Chris Trotter on the BFD
    I don't want to give pblicity to certain parts of the internet that are better left to fester in their own irrelevance (I know, a bit like this place) but the listing of Chris Trotter as a 'author' on Cameron Slater's spinoff website, the BFD requires some explanation.Now, I don't ...
    2 days ago
  • Sex is not a spectrum
    The text below is a Twitter thread by Heather Heying that explains the essence of sexual reproduction and it long evolutionary history. She is an evolutionary biologist and a “professor-in-exile” after she and her husband, Bret Weinstein, stood up to supporters of an enforced “Day of Absence” for white staff and teachers ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 days ago
  • Climate Change: Trees, aviation, and offsets
    With crunch time for new Zealand climate policy approaching, most of the New Zealand media have got on board with a global reporting effort to cover the issue. There's one strand of stories today about polling and what it shows about changing public attitudes to the crisis, but the strand ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Pissing-Off The Israelis Is A High-Risk Strategy.
    Dangerous Foes: For those readers of Bowalley Road who feel disposed to dismiss any prospect of an Israeli destabilisation of New Zealand politics, the example of the United Kingdom repays close attention. Ever since the election of Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the British Labour Party, the Israelis have sanctioned, funded and ...
    3 days ago
  • Something to go to in Wellington
    Make It 16, the youth-led campaign to lower New Zealand's voting age, is holding an official campaign launch at Parliament this Friday from 16:30. If you'd like to attend, you can register using EventBrite here. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • A founding member responds to Peace Action Wellington
    by Don Franks It was a lovely sunny Wellington afternoon with blue skies above  the beaches.  In Courtenay Place, political activists packed out a stuffy upstairs room for an important meeting. The assembled pacifists, anarchists, communists and independent young radicals of Peace Action Wellington felt the need for a mission ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    3 days ago
  • “Mistakes and errors”
    Current and former NZDF top brass are being publicly grilled this week by the hit and run inquiry over their public responses to allegations of civilian casualties. Previously, they've claimed there were no casualties, a position which led them to lie to Ministers and to the public. Now, they're saying ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • “Homosexuality is same-sex attraction and relationships, not heterosexuals with delusions of gende...
    by Rafael D. Quiles (gender-critical gay man from Puerto Rico) The writing on the wall is right in people’s faces and people just don’t see it or don’t want to. What could actually possess a heterosexual male to want to feminize himself and claim that he is a lesbian? Because ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    3 days ago
  • Trump: “Where’s my favourite dictator?”
    From the Wall Street Journal:Inside a room of the ornately decorated Hotel du Palais during last month’s Group of Seven summit in Biarritz, France, President Trump awaited a meeting with Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al Sisi. Mr. Trump looked over a gathering of American and Egyptian officials and called out in ...
    4 days ago
  • Magdalen Burns, 1983-2019, fighter for women’s liberation
    by the Redline blog collective At Redline we are very saddened to hear of the death of Magdalen Burns who passed away on the morning of Friday, September 13 (British time). Magdalen was a great fighter for the rights of women in general and lesbian women in particular, a defender ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    4 days ago
  • Parliament and the Executive
    The Brexit issue has certainly brought with it a series of apparently difficult constitutional issues, many of them concerning the respective roles of the executive and parliament. Most of them arise because of the unwillingness of MPs, despite their professions to the contrary, to be bound by a constitutional rarity ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    5 days ago
  • The Abigail Article; Martyn Bradbury’s Article, and My Response
    . . This blogpost is different to my usual format of reporting on issues… Since July 1011, I have blogged on a variety of political issues; near always political and/or environmental; mostly highly critical of the previous National Government. Other issues included Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and repression of ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    5 days ago
  • Police will have to wear silly Buckingham Palace hats from now on, says Police Minister
    Those close to the Police Minister believe the initiative may be the result of Nash “seeing a great deal” on AliExpress. In a move that comes seemingly out of nowhere, Police Minister Stuart Nash announced this afternoon that he expects all frontline staff to don bearskin hats, famously worn by ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    6 days ago
  • A sensible crackdown
    The government has released its Arms Legislation Bill, containing the second tranche of changes to gun laws following the March 15 massacre. And it all looks quite sensible: a national gun register, higher penalties for illegal possession and dealing, tighter restrictions on arms dealers and shooting clubs, and a shorter ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • California bans private prisons
    Private prisons are a stain on humanity. Prison operators explicitly profit from human misery, then lobby for longer prisons terms so they can keep on profiting. And in the US, prison companies run not only local and state prisons, but also Donald Trump's immigration concentration camps. Faced with this moral ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • Why PPPs are a bad idea
    When National was in power, they were very keen on Public-Private Partnerships (PPPs) - basicly, using private companies to finance public infrastructure as a way of hiding debt from the public. They were keen on using them for everything - roads, schools, hospitals. But as the UK shows, that "service" ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • A Movement That No Longer Moves.
    Moving And Shaking: There was a time when people spoke matter-of-factly about the “labour movement” – a political phenomenon understood to embrace much more than the Labour Party. Included within the term’s definition was the whole trade union movement – many of whose members looked upon the Labour Party as ...
    6 days ago
  • NZ ‘left’ politically embracing extreme postmodernism
    by Philip Ferguson Much of the left, even people who formally identify as marxists, have collapsed politically in the face of postmodern gender theory of the sort pioneered by American philosopher Judith Butler. For Butler even biological sex is socially constructed. “If the immutable character of sex is contested, perhaps ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    6 days ago
  • The obvious question
    The media is reporting that the (alleged) Labour party sexual assaulter has resigned from their job at Parliament, which means hopefully he won't be turning up there making people feel unsafe in future. Good. But as with everything about this scandal, it just raises other questions. Most significantly: why the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • The moment I found out that you found out, I acted swiftly
    By Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern I am every bit as angry as you are. I am every bit as disappointed as you must be. The people with power, oversight and the ability to do something about these processes within the Labour Party should be ashamed. Whoever those people are, I ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    7 days ago
  • This is why people hate property developers
    Property developers think there is an "oversupply" of houses in Auckland:High turnover rates and falling prices may be a sign that there are too many new houses going in to some parts of Auckland, commentators say. [...] Property developer David Whitburn said there was a "bit of an oversupply" in ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • Australia to Pacific: “Fuck you, you can all drown”
    World leaders are meeting in New York in two weeks for the 2019 Climate Action Summit, where they are expected to announce new and more ambitious targets to stop the world from burning. But the Australian Prime Minister won't be there, despite being in the USA at the time:Scott Morrison ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • Implausible ignorance
    Labour Party president Nigel Haworth resigned yesterday over the party's sexual assault scandal. But while that's good news, its unlikely to take away the stench of a coverup. Because according to Paula Bennett in Parliament yesterday, pretty much everyone in the Prime Minister's office was involved as well:I have been ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • Labour’s Fatal Flaw.
     Two-Faced? Labour insiders' commitment to the neoliberal status quo puts them at odds with their party’s membership; its trade union affiliates; and a majority of Labour voters, but this only serves to strengthen the perception they have of themselves as a special elite. Among the lesser breeds, they’ll talk up a ...
    7 days ago
  • Ten reasons the Tories do NOT want an election
    There has been a lot of talk about Boris Johnson wanting an election, and he has blustered with great gusto about 'chicken' Jeremy Corbyn refusing one, but I think there are many reasons why he is secretly glad he has been refused the opportunity:The Tories are an utter rabble,tearing themselves ...
    1 week ago
  • Prorogation Illegal, rule Scottish judges
    Scottish appeal court judges have declared that Boris Johnson’s decision to suspend parliament in the run-up to the October Brexit deadline is unlawful. The three judges, chaired by Lord Carloway, Scotland’s most senior judge, overturned an earlier ruling that the courts did not have the powers to interfere in the prime ...
    1 week ago
  • Let me explain what I meant by Everyday New Zealanders
    By Simon Bridges. The following is a press release from the office of Simon Bridges, leader of The National Party. Key ora, New Zealand. Happy Maori Language Week. Look, I’m writing to you today because I want to clear something up. There’s been a lot of kerfuffle around some things ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Yes, the SIS is subject to the Public Records Act
    I understand there's some stuff going round about how the SIS "was removed from the list of public offices covered by the Public Records Act in 2017". The context of course being their records derived from US torture, which will be disposed of or sealed. The good news is that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • An evidence-based discussion of the Canadian fluoride/IQ study
    Dr. Christopher Labos and Jonathan Jarry discuss the recent Canadian fluoride/IQ research. They provide an expert analysis of the paper and its problems. Click on image to go to podcast. The critical debate about the recent ...
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Australia in denial
    Australia is burning down again, and meanwhile its natural disaster minister is denying climate change:Australia’s minister responsible for drought and natural disasters, David Littleproud, has said that he doesn’t “know if climate change is manmade”. Clarifying earlier comments that the question is “irrelevant” when considering the Coalition government’s response to ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Philippines activist speaking on the Duterte tyranny
    Auckland Philippines Solidarity is excited to host Professor Judy Taguiwalo for a speaking tour of NZ in September. She is a well-known activist in the Philippines and was a political prisoner under the Marcos dictatorship. Professor Taguiwalo briefly served as a Cabinet member under President Duterte but was forced from ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Disgust
    I have no special insights to offer on the Labour sexual assault coverup. All I have is disgust. Disgust that an organisation could fail its people so badly. Disgust that they punished the victims rather than the perpetrator. Disgust that its party hacks are apparently blaming the victims for demanding ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Speak Up for Women calls out Greens’ censorship
    This open letter to the Green Party was penned after an opinion piece by Jill Abigail, a feminist and founding member of the party, was censored by the Greens’ leadership. (Redline has reprinted her article here).The intolerance of the Green Party leaders and their acceptance of the misogyny of gender ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Member’s Day: End of Life Choice, part 3
    Today is a Member's day, and David Seymour's End of Life Choice Bill continues its slow crawl through its committee stage. They're spending the whole day on it today, though the first hour is likely to be spent on voting left over from last time. After that they'll move on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Flight to Los Angeles turned back after passengers decide they don’t want to go anymore
    An ambitious plan to fly to Los Angeles petered out into a brief sight-seeing trip and a desire to return home and get some sleep before work tomorrow. Air New Zealand has confirmed a flight to Los Angeles last night was turned back about a quarter of the way into ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Indigenous Futures: defuturing and futuring – an analytical framework for policy development?
    There appears to be consensus – by omission – that the concept of indigenous futures should be accepted at face value. So I scavenged the internet to see if I could locate an academic descriptor or a framework around how we think about it as a concept, and whether it ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    1 week ago
  • Cadbury rumoured to be releasing the Pineapple Trump
    Here’s another novelty chocolate to shove in your gob, New Zealand Cadbury could be seeking to make itself great again with a rumoured new release: Pineapple Trumps, a spin on its classic chocolate-encased pineapple treat and do-it-yourself tooth remover. The global confectionery manufacturer and bumbling “before” character in an infomercial, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • The coming resource war.
    During my time in the Pentagon I had the privilege of sitting down with military leaders and defence and security officials from a variety of Latin American nations. Sometimes I was present as a subordinate assistant to a senior US defence department official, sometimes as part of a delegation that ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    1 week ago
  • Māori Language Week with The Civilian
    Kia ora, Aotearoa. It’s that magical time of year. Te Wiki o te Reo Māori. In English, the week that frightens talk radio. As you probably know by now, all your favourite media outlets are participating, some more successfully than others. Stuff has changed its name to Puna for the ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Will Horizons act on climate change?
    Local body elections are coming up next month. And it looks like all Palmerston North candidates for Horizons (the Manawatu-Whanganui Regional Council) want to take action on climate change:Climate change is set to be a key issue in Palmerston North for the next three years if those wanting to get ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • BORA reform is stalled
    Eighteen months ago, the government promised to strengthen the Bill of Rights Act, by explicitly affirming the power of the courts to issue declarations of inconsistency and requiring Parliament to formally respond to them. So how's that going? I was curious, so I asked for all advice about the proposal. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Corbyn and Brexit
    As the Brexit saga staggers on, the focus is naturally enough on the Prime Minister and his attempts to achieve Brexit “do or die”. But the role played by the Leader of the Opposition is of almost equal interest and complexity. The first problem for Jeremy Corbyn is that he ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • A ditch for him to die in
    Last week, English Prime Minister Boris Johnson boldly declared that he would rather die be dead in a ditch than delay Brexit. Unfortunately for him, the UK parliament accepted the challenge, and promptly dug one for him. The "rebellion bill" requires him to ask for and secure yet another temporary ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Warning! Warning! Danger Jacinda Ardern! Danger Marama Davidson! Warning!
    Lost In Political Space: The most important takeaway from this latest Labour sexual assault scandal, which (if I may paraphrase Nixon’s White House counsel’s, John Dean’s, infamous description of Watergate) is “growing like a cancer” on the premiership, is the Labour Party organisation’s extraordinary professional paralysis in the face of ...
    1 week ago
  • Union solidarity with Ihumatao land occupation
    by Daphna Whitmore Every Sunday for the past two months unionists from First Union, with supporters from other unions, have set out to the Ihumatao land protest, put up gazebos and gas barbeques, and cooked food for a few hundred locals and supporters who have come from across the country. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: The wrong kind of trees?
    Newsroom today has an excellent, in-depth article on pine trees as carbon sinks. The TL;DR is that pine is really good at soaking up carbon, but people prefer far-less efficient native forests instead. Which is understandable, but there's two problems: firstly, we've pissed about so long on this problem that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • No freedom of speech in Turkey
    Canan Kaftancioglu is a Turkish politician and member of the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP). Like most modern politicians, she tweets, and uses the platform to criticise the Turkish government. She has criticised them over the death of a 14-year-old boy who was hit by a tear gas grenade during ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Speaker: Tadhg Stopford: Why I’m standing for the ADHB
    Hi there, just call me Tim.We face tough problems, and I’d like to help, because there are solutions.An Auckand District Health Board member has nominated me for as a candidate for the ADHB, because her MS-related pain and fatigue is reduced with hemp products from Rotorua.  Nothing else helped her. If I ...
    1 week ago
  • Good little vassals
    The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security has published their report on whether the SIS and GCSB had any complicity in American torture. And its damning. The pull quote is this:The Inquiry found both agencies, but to a much greater degree, the NZSIS, received many intelligence reports obtained from detainees who, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Who Shall We Turn To When God, And Uncle Sam, Cease To Defend New Zealand?
    Bewhiskered Cassandra? Professor Hugh White’s chilling suggestion, advanced to select collections of academic, military and diplomatic Kiwi experts over the course of the past week, is that the assumptions upon which Australia and New Zealand have built their foreign affairs and defence policies for practically their entire histories – are ...
    1 week ago
  • The Politics of Opposition
    For most of the time I was a British MP, my party was out of government – these were the Thatcher years, when it was hard for anyone else to get a look-in. As a front-bencher and shadow minister, I became familiar with the strategies required in a parliamentary democracy ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • More expert comments on the Canadian fluoride-IQ paper
    The Green et al (2019) fluoride/IQ is certainly controversial – as would be expected from its subject (see If at first you don’t succeed . . . statistical manipulation might help and Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear). Anti-fluoride campaigners have been actively promoting it ...
    1 week ago
  • The return to guerrilla war in Colombia
    by Gearóid Ó Loingsigh On August 29th a video in which veteran FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) commander Iván Márquez announced that they had taken up arms again was released. There was no delay in the reaction to it, from longtime Liberal Party figure and former president Uribe, for ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Air New Zealand identifies this enormous plot of unused land as possible second airport site
    Air New Zealand couldn’t believe its luck that this seemingly ideal piece of real estate had so far gone entirely unnoticed. Air New Zealand’s search for a site to build a second Auckland Airport may have made a breakthrough this afternoon, after employees scanning Google satellite imagery spotted a huge, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Redline on the Labour Party
    No-one on the anti-capitalist left in this country today puts forward a case that Labour is on the side of the working class.  There are certainly people who call themselves ‘socialist’ who do, but they are essentially liberals with vested interests in Labourism – often for career reasons. Nevertheless, there ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • New Fisk
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Labour’s failure
    When National was in government and fucking over the poor for the benefit of the rich, foodbanks were a growth industry. And now Labour is in charge, nothing has changed: A huge demand for emergency food parcels means the Auckland City Mission is struggling to prepare for the impending arrival ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Ardern attempts to vaccinate Clarke Gayford live on television to prove that it’s safe
    Gayford, pictured here on The Project, before things got wildly out of control. A bold public relations move by the Government to encourage parents to vaccinate their children has gone horribly wrong. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern appeared on tonight’s episode of Three’s The Project, where the plan was for her ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Has Mr. Whippy gone too far by parking on our front lawns?
    Mr. Whippy’s business model has driven it down a dark road of intimidation. Residents in major centres around the country are becoming disgruntled by the increasingly aggressive actions of purported ice cream company Mr. Whippy, who have taken to parking on people’s front lawns and doorsteps in a desperate attempt ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Cleaning up the water
    Today the government released its Action Plan for Healthy Waterways, aimed at cleaning up our lakes and rivers. Its actually quite good. There will be protection for wetlands, better standards for swimming spots, a requirement for continuous improvement, and better standards for wastewater and stormwater. But most importantly, there's a ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Fronting up
    Today I appeared before the Environment Committee to give an oral submission on the Zero Carbon Bill. Over 1,500 people have asked to appear in person, so they've divided into subcommittees and are off touring the country, giving people a five minute slot each. The other submitters were a mixed ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear
    Anti-fluoride activists have some wealthy backers – they are erecting billboards misrepresenting the Canadian study on many New Zealand cities – and local authorities are ordering their removal because of their scaremongering. Many New Zealanders ...
    2 weeks ago

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