Open mike 18/08/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 18th, 2020 - 209 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

209 comments on “Open mike 18/08/2020 ”

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  1. I Feel Love 1
    18 August 2020 at 6:47 am

    Tova O'Brien tweets to Collins "is the October 17th poll going to be rogue?". Burn! (paraphrased, my memory).

    [Fixed typo in e-mail address]

  2. Ad 2
    18 August 2020 at 7:55 am

    I haven't seen social contract theory set out clearly in an election advertisement before, so top marks to Ed Markey:



  3. ScottGN 3
    18 August 2020 at 8:02 am

    I’m not sure if it was a terribly good idea for Judith to connect Gerry’s wild-eyed conspiracy theories to the rubbish that’s circulating on Facebook as she did on TVNZ this morning?

  4. Adrian Thornton 4
    18 August 2020 at 8:02 am

    If you want to see what the dark heart of the establishment DNC looks like look no further than this interview…nothing more than a bunch of filthy war hawks whose ideology is pure and utter american exceptionalism, this lot are not all that different from ISIS, in other words fundamentalists..,,so don't fool yourselves, Biden/Kamala are really just pro choice Republicans.

    And it is worth noting that this interview was done before it was exposed that the FBI had been caught lying in their Russiagate investigations..

    Dem impeachment attorney on Mueller, Ukrainegate, and the case vs. Trump

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6ogICXNbB8

    Former FBI Lawyer Involved in Russia Investigation Pleads Guilty

    https://www.voanews.com/usa/former-fbi-lawyer-involved-russia-investigation-pleads-guilty

    .

    • Tricledrown 4.1
      18 August 2020 at 8:30 am

      Your drawing a very long bow just reheating Trumps propaganda.

      Reading your article it doesn't match your implications.

      • Adrian Thornton 4.1.1
        18 August 2020 at 8:52 am

        "..that he altered a June 2017 email from the CIA in a way that suggested Page, an admitted CIA asset, was not a “source” for the agency.

        Relying on the falsified document, the FBI then applied for its fourth surveillance warrant on Page, according to court documents."

        I am not reheating Trumps anything, just stating the fact that the FBI has been caught red handed altering evidence to suit their investigation… an investigation that using the full might of one of the most powerful intelligence agencies in the entire world proved nothing…well I guess they did prove that people on the Left ( including all it's media) are just as easily manipulated into believing unquestioningly any conspiracy theory fed to them as people on the Right are, as long as that conspiracy conforms too and strengthens their already deeply embedded bias and/or helps in vilifying their perceived enemy.

        A great smoke and mirrors trick that has been used by those in power forever, and sadly as can be plainly seen, still works just as effectively.

        • Tricledrown 4.1.1.1
          18 August 2020 at 11:04 am

          One item out of tonnes of evidence.sycophantic Minions will take a tiny bit of Truth to push propaganda.

    • roblogic 4.2
      18 August 2020 at 8:36 am

      Trump = children in cages, lies about Coronavirus, destroying US democracy, cuddling up to dictators, winks to white supremacists.

      Vote Joe

      • Adrian Thornton 4.2.1
        18 August 2020 at 9:05 am

        This is nothing to do with voting joe, this is about the the DNC aided by the FBI concocting a elaborate conspiracy theory..ie Russia interference that altered the outcome 2016 US elections..and that Trump is somehow in the pocket of Putin, both allegations never proven because they are both just as ridiculous.

        I am just as opposed to Trump as anyone on this site, but that doesn't mean I have to turn off the critical thinking part of my brain and get into bed with organizations like the FBI FFS!

        • Andre 4.2.1.1
          18 August 2020 at 9:52 am

          I am just as opposed to Trump as anyone on this site

          I don't see any evidence of that. None. Quite the opposite, in fact.

          I can't bring to mind any instances of you being critical of any of the numerous outrages the stygian homunculus has perpetrated against the disadvantaged, against democracy, against fairness and equity in society, against the environment etc etc.

          It appears your only interest is in attacking Democrats, often as a diversionary whine when someone else posts a criticism of an outrageous action perpetrated by Don of the Deadbrains or one of his minions. Indeed, often these diversionary attacks appear to be repackaged from the convergence wingnut area of the political spectrum. That is most easily interpreted as trying to boost the satsuma shitgibbon, not the actions of someone opposed to what he is doing.

          • Adrian Thornton 4.2.1.1.1
            18 August 2020 at 10:21 am

            I don't need to attack Trump, it is quite obvious to anyone with eyes what he is and what he stands for…what I am concerned about is idiots like you destroying the little credibility the Left has with the general public with your unhinged and fact free conspiracy theories.. I rarely if ever see you lot attacking Trumps foreign policies…wonder why that is? …I didn't see you lot lose you shit when he (with the DNC) signed off on the biggest largest military budget in history, or signed off the biggest upward movement of wealth to wall st recently…you and your beloved Dem anti Trump rhetoric is nothing but a sick joke and nothing more than that, rhetoric..you give that motherfucker Trump everything he wants when it comes to the super wealthy, US corporations and US military hegemony…like I said you are a joke, and Trumps laughing right into your face…. the sad thing is you are being used like a tool and you don’t even seem to want to know.

            • Tricledrown 4.2.1.1.1.1
              18 August 2020 at 11:10 am

              Adrian Thornton.You should take a long look at your post as they say the longer the diatribe the biggly your lying

              If you don't like Trump just say so .we don't some mansplaining.

              [Point out a clear and obvious lie.

              Address comments with something substantial, not just gesticulating, thanks – Incognito]

            • SPC 4.2.1.1.1.2
              18 August 2020 at 11:58 am

              I'm not sure what you meant by Wall Street and recently, but here is one account of the tax change in 2018.

              https://thehill.com/policy/finance/408631-how-the-trump-tax-cuts-passed-bipartisanship-wasnt-an-ingredient

              On defence spending, they gave way and without conditions.

              https://www.businessinsider.com.au/democrats-gave-trump-everything-he-wants-738-billion-defense-bill-2019-12?r=US&IR=T

            • McFlock 4.2.1.1.1.3
              18 August 2020 at 3:08 pm

              So you're just as opposed to the cheetodick as anyone else on the site, but without actually attacking him. /sarc

              Do you really not remember any criticism of the dude's foreign policy? The pulling back from NATO, the trade confrontations, the free passes given to Putin, the repeated North Korea fuckups, the suggestion Japan and South Korea get nukes, the moving of the US embassy in Israel, his pathetic manipulation by dictators around the world?

              What an unreliable memory you have.

            • Andre 4.2.1.1.1.4
              18 August 2020 at 3:48 pm

              I rarely if ever see you lot attacking Trumps foreign policies

              That's because you're too self-involved in your own public political masturbation to take on board what anyone else has to say.

              eg this entire post: https://thestandard.org.nz/that-1914-feeling/

              ranging to details as fine as this comment: https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-24-02-2018/#comment-1453421

              plus all the topics McFlock mentioned

              … you give that motherfucker Trump everything he wants when it comes to the super wealthy, US corporations and US military hegemony …

              Again, you obviously aren't paying attention if you've missed all the comments about tax cuts for the wealthy, cutting regulations and all the other shit America's Prolapsed Rectum has been doing to coddle the wealthy and the corporations. (these comments are a bit harder to search for due to my refusal to use the Mandarin Manutang's common name)

              eg https://thestandard.org.nz/the-chaos-of-the-trump-white-house/

              • Incognito …
                18 August 2020 at 3:58 pm

                Dear Adrian Thornton and Andre,

                If I may, I observe (i.e. my PoV) that you two have much more in common than that separates you. Based on my belief, I’m at a loss as to why you two feel the need to rip into each other as you do. Please note that I’m not moderating here, just expressing my utter confusion and inability to grasp what’s going on between you. As such, it doesn’t invite or require an answer 😉

                • woodart …
                  18 August 2020 at 4:49 pm

                  they need to get a room.

                • Andre …
                  18 August 2020 at 5:32 pm

                  As I see it, the biggest difference is that as the choices narrow down, I shift my support to whichever remaining option is most likely to achieve changes I value.

                  Looks to me like Adrian does not, apparently preferring to attack even harder the remaining option that knocked out the one he had his heart set on, without realising that that is functionally the same as supporting the opponent of what he professes to value. There's a time for those attacks, while the choices remain open. But after the choice has been made, it's just destructive.

                  • Incognito …
                    18 August 2020 at 5:48 pm

                    If you and Adrian cannot agree to disagree – although you seem to be united in your aversion against Trump and GOP – then why not give each other a wide berth? This behaviour is also destructive, IMHO.

            • RedLogix 4.2.1.1.1.5
              18 August 2020 at 5:55 pm

              For what it's worth Adrian I can hear where you are coming from. Perhaps the best way to understand the USA is to understand that their unique geography has meant that over centuries they've been able to build a powerful and prosperous nation without having to develop and especially competent or responsive political system. As a result when a real crisis strikes, they're left floundering.

              Trump is a high functioning psychopath which makes him both a polarising figure and deeply unsuited to the modern office of POTUS. Yet more than a few have drawn comparison with another President … Andrew Jackson … who was similarly divisive, reckless and viscerally despised by his opponents. Yet oddly enough history regards him now as one of the more significant Presidents. In this I agree with you, obsessively attacking Trump is a fools errand. It ends with the old line about you getting dirty and the pig enjoying it.

              As for the DNC, it's very hard to have respect for a political entity that produces Joe Biden as it's best effort. Truly the USA political system has become a ship of fools, but even this phase will pass. There is every reason to hope that after a decade of turmoil the USA will re-invent itself as it has done in the past.

              And in this respect I’m also with Andre, that a reflexive anti-Americanism is a selective and unproductive view of their role in the world. We must be honest about their flaws and mistakes, but it’s folly to also discard their many achievements.

              • Andre …
                18 August 2020 at 6:18 pm

                It wasn't "the DNC" that selected Biden as the candidate. It was probably the most democratic selection process of anywhere in the world at any time for choosing a candidate to contest for a country's highest office. Literally anyone eligible to vote in the general election could participate equally in the Democratic primary. At most, they would have to fill out a form saying they affiliated as a Democrat some time before their state's primary date, but in many states they just have to choose which primary they are are voting in at the time of casting their ballot. No joining the party, no membership fees, no giving a party personal data needed.

                The vote-counting rules were also closer to one person-one vote than anything else I'm aware of. The only significant deviation was the 15% threshold for getting awarded delegates, but that distortion is much smaller than even Repug rules that ranged up to winner-take-all in some states. Let alone rules like reserving a proportion of votes to unions and caucus members as happens here.

                Literally anyone could also put themselves forward for selection. No prior party affiliation needed. In fact, the runner-up pointedly dissociated himself from the Democratic party several years earlier, and only grudgingly re-associated himself with the party once he decided to try for the nomination.

                I'm not aware of any other political organisation anywhere else in the world that is anywhere near that open to all comers when it comes to choosing its leader. So painting the DNC as some nefarious organisation pulling hidden strings behind the scenes is really unfair and simply wrong. The choice was freely and fairly made by the segment of the voting public that were interested enough to make the relatively minimal effort required to participate in that choice.

                • RedLogix …
                  18 August 2020 at 6:43 pm

                  It's a semantic quibble, the DNC may not have done the voting, but they certainly own and run the process. And to suggest that the party machine sits back and watches the primaries unfold with no attempt at influence seems a trifle naive … but it's your party and I'm not pissing on it.

                  I can understand Biden's stammer, I can get past his uninspiring past, I can even live with the fact that a more honest process would have just selected Kamala Harris from the outset. But that Biden somehow came through a field of far more credible candidates, any number of them much more interesting and charismatic, just leaves me cold.

                  And more than anything else the Dems need a charismatic, energising candidate to energise their disparate support base to ensure a strong win. Yet here we are with a relatively weak candidate, that despite promising polling, is by no means hands down to beat Trump. In US elections turnout is everything, and this the polls do not measure well.

                  • Andre …
                    18 August 2020 at 7:14 pm

                    The DNC doesn't have have a secret research lab where they manufacture candidates and they botched the recipe this year. The choice available is entirely at the mercy of the vagaries of who puts their hand up to have a go and catches the interest of the voting public.

                    This year, probably for fear of being accused of underhanded influence by rabid supporters of specific candidates, even people with long histories of solid contribution to the party were extremely circumspect about even making their views public. The party machine has been remarkably hands-off, more so than any other selection process anywhere anytime than I can bring to mind. Clyburn's endorsement before the South Carolina primary was just about the sum total of party machine involvement in making the choice, which is really almost nothing on the scale of these things.

                    So for this year, charisma maybe isn't what the voting public is looking for. Possibly the idea that Biden knows the ropes so thoroughly that he can step in on day one and start getting things working again without fuss is something that way overcomes his resemblance to a potted plant. Perhaps the potted plant thing is even a positive after all the "charisma" of the past four years.

                    • RedLogix …
                      18 August 2020 at 8:05 pm

                      Perhaps the potted plant thing is even a positive after all the "charisma" of the past four years.

                      Skroderider. devil

                    • SPC …
                      18 August 2020 at 10:04 pm

                      For mine Biden was/is the nostalgia choice, he's the last of his generation, a generation of Democrats who did not realise much. They lost to Reagan, then to Bush junior and for the brief time Obama had Congress he was dealing with GFC and the legacy of PNAC in foreign policy (its hard to count Clinton when he was the tail of the Republican Congress) and in that brief window brought in the Affordable Care Act. For those of this era, a last chance at redemption, fulfillment of lost promise.

                      To the wider public, its packaged as a return to an old civility. Something even some of the older GOP members of Congress can appreciate. It's also in a bi-partisan sense a restoration of respect for the institutions of the state and the concept of public service. Albeit over the political corpse of Donald John Trump.

                      The Oval Office is no place for an angry old man, not Nixon nor Trump.

                      There was the direction not taken in 2000 (Florida chads and the Supreme Court). This is the chance for the USA to join the 21st C and the community of democratic nations. The mistake made in 2000 was to try to dominate the word as a lone super power. When empires end they turn to neglected domestic issues – they do justice, that fulfillment of lost promise.

                      Which is where the succession to Biden comes in (he would be a one term president), handing over to a new generation – albeit with some of the path set by Sanders and working with the DC hivemind

                      In terms of foreign policy, not being Trump is a low bar. Not trying destroy the WTO, rejoining WHO, funding the UN on time, not cozying up to strongman types and rejoining the Paris Accord is not as much as the world needs. Maybe the rest can come from the USA working with others on global security matters a little more.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  18 August 2020 at 6:58 pm

                  Literally anyone eligible to vote in the general election could participate equally in the Democratic primary.

                  If you want to ensure that you get the worst possible candidate for your political party's top job then have the voting open to the opposition.

              • Ad …
                18 August 2020 at 6:43 pm

                I'll stick a post up about what a Democratic Party-led Biden administration will probably focus on.

                Just to balance things out a bit.

                • Muttonbird …
                  18 August 2020 at 6:51 pm

                  Can't wait.

                  • Ad …
                    18 August 2020 at 8:29 pm

                    I'm just going to focus on foreign affairs.

                    I've covered Biden's domestic platform on here a couple of times already.

                • RedLogix …
                  18 August 2020 at 7:15 pm

                  I'm almost persuaded by your optimism Ad. But in essence the USA is a nation in the middle of both a social crisis and a failure of governance at the same time.

                  In blunt terms the US has split strongly between coastal communities dominated by 'zoom people' that earn a living typing on computer, and the rest of the nation that still bends steel and works with their hands for a living. They've bifurcated into two very different groups and it's not at all clear to me how Biden will be able to reach across this fault line.

                  And in terms of governance the COVID crisis has cruelly exposed weakness at every level both federal and state. Despite insanely complex layers of regulation, policy and agencies the system has fallen apart when faced with real crisis. Reforming this will be the work of a decade, and again I'm not hearing Biden talking to any of this.

          • Brigid 4.2.1.1.2
            18 August 2020 at 11:27 am

            " attacking Democrats"

            It is incumbent on you then Andre to defend them.

            Isn't it?

            If you can.

            Reply to every post of Adrian's where he's denounced them with proof that his claim is incorrect.

            To continue claiming that any criticism of the Democrats proves support of Trump is tiresome and barely reaches the level of debate of your third form debater.

            Every iteration of humourous, clever Trump pseudonym does not assist the debate very much.

            • Andre 4.2.1.1.2.1
              18 August 2020 at 11:36 am

              It takes vastly more time and effort to refute bullshit than it does to spatter it out in the first place. Eventually the time comes to call out the orifice spewing bullshit for what it is rather than continue the really tiresome task of trying to clean up after it.

        • Stuart Munro 4.2.1.2
          18 August 2020 at 12:15 pm

          That Russia interference that altered the outcome 2016 US elections.

          Sources as various as Time and Al Jazeerah confirm the Russian interference

          https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/senate-panel-confirms-russian-interference-2016-election-200421162844869.html

          https://time.com/5565991/russia-influence-2016-election/

          and that Trump is somehow in the pocket of Putin,

          Nor is there a shortage of material claiming that Trump is indebted to Putin.

          https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/12/21/how-russian-money-helped-save-trumps-business/

          https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/trumps-businesses-are-full-of-dirty-russian-money-the-scandal-is-thats-legal/2019/03/29/11b812da-5171-11e9-88a1-ed346f0ec94f_story.html

          both allegations never proven because they are both just as ridiculous.

          You may not accept the proof, but given the abundance of such reports in reputable media, they are hardly ridiculous. Ridiculous would be dismissing them without considering the evidence.

      • sumsuch 4.2.2
        18 August 2020 at 11:07 pm

        And what does Joe really have to do with democracy?

        • sumsuch 4.2.2.1
          18 August 2020 at 11:12 pm

          Getting involved in American politics is like getting involved in the demise of the Roman Republic. Nothing in it for anyone but with the most brilliant PR ever.

          • roblogic 4.2.2.1.1
            19 August 2020 at 10:23 am

            It's an historical moment. If Trump wins it's lights out for the USA. It will fall deeper into authoritarianism, paranoia, and corruption, as the pandemic and social unrest spread out of control. States like California and Texas might want to secede from the insanity in Washington and Wall St. Global treaties and defence arrangements will be in tatters.

            • sumsuch 4.2.2.1.1.1
              22 August 2020 at 11:40 pm

              Actually, I wonder about supporting an oligarchic Democratic Party. But just a FDR or LBJ would be enough to deliver capitalism there for another few years. Which would be better than the violence needed otherwise. I don't think the DP understands this.

    • Andre 4.3
      18 August 2020 at 8:55 am

      Some day you might want to pop up from that rabbit hole you're in and come visit us where reality and rationality and big-pictures are occasionally visible.

      • Adrian Thornton 4.3.1
        18 August 2020 at 9:07 am

        @Andre..Down the rabbit hole?…mate your FBI handlers have already trapped, skinned, skewered and cooked you.

    • SPC 4.4
      18 August 2020 at 10:06 am

      While some people are focused on a battle for control of the Democratic Party, the Republicans have gone full metal jacket rogue and running amok.

      And this suits Valdimort Putin just fine. Authoritarians are a brotherhood, they care nothing for democratic traditions.

  5. George 5
    18 August 2020 at 8:09 am

    I am sensing myself becoming more concerned about the origins of this current outbreak as I watch the scientists looking perplexed and hear and read bafflement in the media reports. The current virus doesn't match the RNA of the virus past or that in quarantine at our borders. The likelihood of it passing from a frozen surface through layers of protective clothing is really low. I wonder if anyone else has noticed this?

  6. Tricledrown 6
    18 August 2020 at 8:33 am

    Poll in herald yesterday shows National bleeding more votes this time to NZ first.

  7. I Feel Love 7
    18 August 2020 at 8:54 am

    Holy hell, the anatomy of a(n unintentional) conspiracy theory, https://webworm.substack.com/p/webworm-talks-to-the-man-who-started

  8. Andre 8
    18 August 2020 at 9:00 am

    This might be the first indisputably true thing Deranged Dotard has said.

    https://twitter.com/ReallyAmerican1/status/1294859826036715520

    • Ad 8.1
      18 August 2020 at 9:48 am

      OK that was your morning pre-show, here's your main event, and get your hankies out for this one…



      I love well structured pure propaganda, just to smile at the skill of its orchestration.

      • Adrian Thornton 8.1.1
        18 August 2020 at 9:59 am

        That was unwatchable…" the skill of its orchestration " …I won't be taking any movie recommendations from you in future that's for sure!

        Anyway I think this clip would be little more informative to anyone interested in Biden political past…i mean who gives a fuck about his personal life..it is what has he done as a politician is all that matters…

        …Andrew Cockburn, Washington editor for Harper’s magazine, talks about Biden’s record…

        From Crime Bill to Iraq War Vote, Biden’s Legislative History Under Scrutiny as He Enters Race

        • Ad 8.1.1.1
          18 August 2020 at 6:46 pm

          Have a proper look at his full legislative record, and executive record, over 35 years. Fair to say that not many others will, but it's better than silly cherry-picking that your linked interviewers do.

        • NZJester 8.1.1.2
          18 August 2020 at 11:59 pm

          Did you know if you look up "The Lincoln Project" that it has this info on Wikipedia;

          The Lincoln Project is an American political action committee formed in late 2019 by several prominent current and former individuals associated with the Republican Party.

          So that ad is by a Republican run group that is trashing Trump and supporting a Democrat.

  9. Adrian Thornton 9
    18 August 2020 at 9:30 am

    The lackluster ticket of Biden/Kamala starts to look a bit shaky… I have to say I could see no reason why Biden would choose Kamala as running mate, it seemed to me a serious strategic mistake that brought no new voters into the fold, while it no doubt offended many..but what do I know.

    Biden and Trump matchup tightens

    "Overall, 50% of registered voters back the Biden-Harris ticket, while 46% say they support Trump and Pence, right at the poll's margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points"

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/16/politics/cnn-poll-biden-trump-august/index.html

  10. swordfish 10
    18 August 2020 at 9:40 am

    .
    Poll puts Labour as the preferred party for business owners for first time

    Labour is now the preferred party for the owners of small and medium-sized businesses, a poll by MYOB indicates.

    It was the first time owners of small and medium businesses had preferred Labour over National since MYOB, which provides online accounting services, began polling in 2011.

    “Up until now, while satisfaction with the performance of successive Governments has ebbed and flowed, the SME [small and medium-sized enterprises] sector has been a reliable voting bloc for the National Party,” said MYOB’s New Zealand manager, Ingrid Cronin-Knight.

    Labour was the preferred party for 38 per cent of the 401 business owners MYOB surveyed, with 35 per cent favouring National.

    Cronin-Knight said, over the years National had been the front-runner among the owners of small and medium-sized businesses, although its support waxed and waned ranging from 63 per cent in 2014 to 44 per cent in 2017.

    “At this time in the last election cycle, Labour sat on just 29 per cent support,” she said.

    She said 45 per cent of business owners surveyed believed the current Government deserved to be re-elected, while 37 per cent thought it was time for a change.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/prosper/122446937/poll-puts-labour-as-the-preferred-party-for-business-owners-for-first-time

    • lprent 10.1
      18 August 2020 at 10:23 am

      That was a fascinating article – I looked at it last night. I tend to be a somewhat sceptical of the methodology – which wasn’t shown in the article and I can’t see on the MYOB site. If anyone has time could they find it and link to some with a bit of data in it?

      However the trend was interesting. I’ve always been of the opinion that SMEs tend to lean to incumbents rather than ideology. They have enough risk in their own markets and operations. What they’re mostly interested in from government is to not screw up too much.

      Clearly they don’t seem to have seen that from this government.

    • Tricledrown 10.2
      18 August 2020 at 11:26 am

      Since 1987

  11. Adrian Thornton 11
    18 August 2020 at 9:48 am

    More DNC dodgy behaviour revealed today, exposing yet again that the Pelosi lead establishment DNC is more interested in fighting and defeating any movement to the Left within the party than it is in defeating the Right..because it has more in common with the Right than the progressive Left, that is a plain and indisputable fact…

    Party Leaders Investigating Origin of Anti-Morse Campaign Helped Orchestrate It, Documents Reveal

    https://theintercept.com/2020/08/14/alex-morse-richie-neal-state-party/

    • SPC 11.1
      18 August 2020 at 10:18 am

      The same dynamic applies here, in the UK and in the USA. So why the focus on that party and its politics?

      • Adrian Thornton 11.1.1
        18 August 2020 at 10:47 am

        That is a good point, firstly I believe that like it or not the US and it's ideology influence western (and global) politics to an extreme degree, so any movement there right or left will spill over into our domestic scene to a small or large extent, so I am interested in it for that reason, and that is also why I am less interested in it's domestic politics.

        Secondly, there hasn't been anyone in the last couple of years on the NZ Left that have looked like they could pull Labour Left in the way Corbyn and Sanders where looking like they could do..especially since the passing of what could have been one of NZ's greatest Labour leaders Helen Kelly, so I have been pretty despondent about the local political scene since then.

        • aj 11.1.1.1
          18 August 2020 at 6:37 pm

          could have been one of NZ's greatest Labour leaders Helen Kelly

          yes broken heart

        • Ad 11.1.1.2
          18 August 2020 at 6:49 pm

          Trotter's book No Right Turn shares your melancholy, setting out how leftwards turns in New Zealand politics have been regularly sabotaged. I'd recommend it to you.

  12. Sabine 12
    18 August 2020 at 10:06 am

    an apropos of nothing



  13. Pat 13
    18 August 2020 at 10:58 am

    "Amusingly, the loudest calls for the government to step in and reduce the pain that employers are feeling, is coming from the same corporates (and libertarian political parties) that, for the past 20 years, have railed against the evils of state intervention, while also touting the virtues of small government. Clearly, there’s nothing like the advent of personal pain to enable a rethink, and a view of state support in a more kindly light. For the wider good, of course.

    Like any new converts, these new enthusiasts for corporate socialism tend to be dependent to an extent unimaginable by dole recipients or solo parents. With nary a blush, business has been demanding “Where’s the plan?” of the Ardern government – as if sustainable planning for economic recovery was solely the government’s problem, with no parallel obligation on business to look in the mirror. In fact, the wage subsidy scheme was originally intended to give troubled sectors (eg tourism, international education, and hospitality) time to reconfigure their operations It was not meant to be a pause button until whenever normal service would resume."

    http://werewolf.co.nz/2020/08/gordon-campbell-on-the-election-delay/

    Indeed…so many dont appear to have grasped the reality that these subsidies are a breathing space to reevaluate AND ACT with regard to the changed business environment….the cliff approaches and too many appear oblivious.

  14. SPC 14
    18 August 2020 at 11:01 am

    I just hope the number of schools opening up for the second week at Level 3 in Auckland is just a few, the entitled ones preparing students for their Cambridge exams, because if the outbreak spreads via schools it will go on longer and impact the NCEA period, election and survival of many businesses.

    • AB 14.1
      18 August 2020 at 11:21 am

      Waiting to hear whether our local state school is going to open up early for Years 12 and 13. The boy is quite keen to get back early – he thinks remote learning moves too slowly, puts him at a disadvantage compared to schools outside Auckland, and doesn't sufficiently mimic the classroom environment. Setting aside the point that a 17 year old shouldn't be so competitively stressed, these seem like reasonable comments about a slightly lacklustre implementation of remote learning.

      The 'elite' schools pushing this are meeting the needs of their real customers – not the students, the parents. These parents have paid a premium (fees or expensive real estate) to buy their children an advantage over other people's children. They don't want that investment wasted.

      • Muttonbird 14.1.1
        18 August 2020 at 12:17 pm

        Digital learning applied to mathematics and theoretical science is flawed anyway. Remote learning embeds and magnifies those flaws.

        Nothing wrong with a pencil and paper!

      • Peter 14.1.2
        18 August 2020 at 12:23 pm

        Interesting to hear some young people complaining about not being able to cope without the enforced organisational rigours of their secondary schools and want to be there to improve their school marks so they can go to whichever course at whichever university.

        Our youngest, not so long out of that world, said on hearing the complaints, "What? Soon they're going to be out on their own, controlling their own study, responsible for their own tracks. Sounds like they're not up to facing the real world of being a real student."

        She is one who observed numbers from cosseted backgrounds and fancy schools having difficulty coping with independence and poor ability at organising themselves.

        • JanM 14.1.2.1
          18 August 2020 at 12:43 pm

          My sons who went to a decile 2 school and subsequently obtained good degrees, used to remark on how hopeless many of the students from elite schools were at organising themselves at university level. It suggests there is a lot of spoon-feeding happening; maybe more concerned about the pass rates for the schools concerned than developing the abilities of their students.

          • George 14.1.2.1.1
            18 August 2020 at 2:42 pm

            The schools using the Oxford and Cambridge system..I can't remember the other name for it…these students have to earn more credits in order to gain entry to university now than NCEA based courses because the students weren't coping with the environment which was less structured.

  15. Muttonbird 15
    18 August 2020 at 11:18 am

    A beautiful, detailed and lengthy dismantling of the error-ridden and dangerous arguments put up by pandemic-deniers; Simon Thornley, Ryan Bridge, Damien Grant, Matthew Hooton, and Mike Hosking.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300084767/covid19-should-nz-go-swedens-way

    • Just Is 15.1
      18 August 2020 at 2:30 pm

      Muttonbird

      I check the Worldometer daily, it records the infection rates and deaths of 200 countries.

      In the last week or two, Sweden has Not been supplying the site with updated Corona Virus cases or deaths.

      The number of new cases reported has been stationary for even longer.

      I would suggest Swedens method of dealing with the virus is a Failure, the death rate of aprox 6750 is unchanged for last 2/3 weeks.

      Sweden is the only country that has stopped reporting daily cases.

      I wonder if the Govt there is struggling to defend its strategy publically, it only has a population of 10.5 million.

      • Muttonbird 15.1.1
        18 August 2020 at 2:49 pm

        Some economist will know what all this means. Has Sweden borrowed less than us? Maybe:

        As a share of GDP, central government debt increases from 22 percent to 31 percent.

        I think we are looking at 45-50% or something. But then:

        The Maastricht debt is expected to increase from around 35 per cent of GDP in 2019 to 45 per cent at the end of next year. That measure includes the general government consolidated debt and is usually used in international comparisons.

        I have no idea what Maastricht debt is with respect to how we measure government debt.

        They are going to look a bit stupid if they end up with a) massive death rate, b) high unemployment (already over 9%), c) a shrivelled economy (GDP to fall 6.5% this year) and d) huge government debt.

        https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2020/05/19/2035398/0/en/Swedish-government-debt-grows-as-virus-effects-hit-budget.html

      • Incognito 15.1.2
        18 August 2020 at 2:51 pm

        You’ll need to dig deeper; click on the Sweden link, then on the source link at the bottom. You’ll get these webpages:

        https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

        https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa

        • Just Is 15.1.2.1
          18 August 2020 at 8:21 pm

          Worldometer is using their supplied data, if you look closely at the main graph you can see the N/A for info regarding recovered and active cases.

          I have been watching Swedens graph stats almost daily and their was an abrupt stop to statistical records for recording new infections, deaths, recovered and active cases.

          They had been recording daily infections in their hundreds prior to that, if you look closely at the infected graph they went from several hundred infections one day to nearly none 3 or 4 days later, we know that that is Highly unlikely given what we know in NZ.

          Their stats don't add up, they're suppilied by the Swedish Govt.

          Have they got something to hide

          • Just Is 15.1.2.1.1
            18 August 2020 at 8:41 pm

            If Sweden had eradicated the virus from their shores you can bet your bottom dollar the world would have been the first to know about it.

            Has anyone seen a News bulletin/item stating Swedens success, it would have been All Over the News.

            No new cases and no new deaths from two to three hundred new casess on the 15th???

            • greywarshark 15.1.2.1.1.1
              18 August 2020 at 9:11 pm

              And the economy didn't show up on comparative measures as doing all that well.

          • Incognito 15.1.2.1.2
            18 August 2020 at 9:43 pm

            The data are there, on the Worldometer website, and they’re updated daily, as far as I can tell. You just need to click a little further/deeper than the main table on the landing page.

            Did you click on the two links I provided? All daily data can be found there. In fact, the Worldometer data seem to be a little ahead of its source!?

            Did you read this piece: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/covid-19-should-nz-go-swedens-way? It contains up-to-date data on and from Sweden.

            Nobody is hiding anything, it seems. You just need to look a little more carefully, it appears 😉

      • Gabby 15.1.3
        18 August 2020 at 4:19 pm

        Anders Wotsisface may have decided old people count even less when they're dead.

    • Muttonbird 15.2
      18 August 2020 at 3:20 pm

      Another article completely smashing the lame, primitive, poorly researched and dangerous reckons of Hooton, Seymour, Bridge, Hosking, Grant, Thornley and co.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12357457

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 15.3
      18 August 2020 at 5:20 pm

      That is an excellent article!

      Destroys with clear reason the arguments of those saying "Konomy and my precious convenience – so let 'em die" (perhaps phrased a little differently).

      Originally published on Newsroom.

      • Muttonbird 15.3.1
        18 August 2020 at 5:26 pm

        Yes, and I was most heartened we have people in this country willing to stand up to our resident RWNJ opinion writers in the media.

        The evisceration in such considered detail of the friends of Plan-B and their extremely basic and poorly developed concepts gives me hope.

  16. John G 16
    18 August 2020 at 11:18 am

    That's an interesting link! I like them both but never saw the similarities. Bloody obvious really. The other link is the Doors "light my fire" and the Stranglers "Walk on by"

  17. byd0nz 17
    18 August 2020 at 11:25 am

    Cmon Trump. The longer your in, the more likely the downfall of the US as a world power. That can be only be good for the free world, free of yankee war crap.

    • Stuart Munro 17.1
      18 August 2020 at 2:59 pm

      It depends how quickly another aspiring hegemon or pair of them move in to fill their shoes. An ineffectual US is likely much more benign than either an expanding kleptostate or aggressive state capitalism under a wannabe dynastic leader.

  18. ianmac 18
    18 August 2020 at 11:37 am

    We can tell where this line is going:

    Q2. Hon JUDITH COLLINS to the Prime Minister: What advice, if any, has she received on the most likely way COVID-19 entered Auckland, causing the lockdown which began on 12 August, and what weaknesses, if any, have officials identified in border procedures which may have left New Zealand vulnerable to fresh outbreaks of COVID-19?

    Determined to link the outbreak to a government Failure at the border. Wonder if we will ever know where the infection came from.
    Only 11 questions today?

    • ianmac 18.1
      18 August 2020 at 11:44 am

      The man behind a malicious online rumour about the origins of Covid-19's return to New Zealand admits they are awaiting a visit from cops.

      He had claimed that a member of the family at the centre of the new cluster had supposedly entered a managed isolation facility.

      Awful as it was, but interesting to see how the rumour spread and in this case remorse.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12357396

      • SPC 18.1.1
        18 August 2020 at 12:05 pm

        I'm more interested about how it was then professionally repackaged on Facebook- and with the media know etc (which is like a QAnon type mem now, inferring the MSM are not informing the people but these peddlers of fake news are).

        • I Feel Love 18.1.1.1
          18 August 2020 at 12:48 pm

          Is MOH still leaking, as something has just come out, they have found a link to the border.

          https://twitter.com/marcdaalder/status/1295517916960444416

          • SPC 18.1.1.1.1
            18 August 2020 at 2:54 pm

            Just being transparent. A case involving a different strain of the virus is a major development.

            This case looks like a case of surface transmission to a maintenance worker, rather than person to person, these things do happen. China had a cluster they could not explain for some time. Apparently someone returned from overseas and went to their apartment to isolate. Another person in the building spread to others afterwards – the only known link is a button in an elevator.

            • Incognito 18.1.1.1.1.1
              18 August 2020 at 3:38 pm

              As far as I know, the sequencing is partial and I wonder if they have ruled out that this B.1.1.1 sub-lineage developed independently here in NZ from a B.1.1 lineage. AFAIK, it only takes one nucleotide difference to become ‘eligible’ to qualify as a sub-lineage. All sub-lineages started somewhere but there’s no fundamental reason to exclude the (slim?) possibility that the same change happened in more than one place. I’d think the probability is higher than winning the Lotto Jackpot and this was won by ten lucky punters on Saturday. Anybody able to answer this knowledgably?

              • Andre …
                18 August 2020 at 4:38 pm

                I claim zero expertise in viral mutations, but a somewhat feeble grasp of probabilities, so I'll have a crack:

                I guess the first step would be finding out if we've seen the B.1.1 lineage previously here in New Zealand.

                If all nucleotide substitutions are equally probable (no idea whether that's true, I'd guess a lot of theoretically possible substitutions create non-viable virus), then the chances of independently getting that B.1.1.1 mutation here would surely be 1/3 (chances of substituting in the same new nucleotide) times 1/30,000 (the number of nucleotides in the SARS-CoV-2 genome and therefore the chance of substituting into the exact same location) times the number of instances a mutation of that original B.1.1 has occurred here in NZ (call it x, unknown), for a total odds of x/90,000. Times whatever scale-up factor needed to account for all the non-viable mutations in that 90,000 denominator that would never appear.

                The odds of winning from a single line of Powerball are 1/38,383,800. The cheapest ticket is for 8 lines, so that's 1/4,797,975 chance of winning from the cheapest ticket. But the 10 winners all won off the second division since it was a must-win draw, so their odds of their win off one cheapest ticket were roughly 1/800,000.

                But I'd guess there were vastly more tickets sold for the Powerball draw than opportunities for B.1.1 to become B.1.1.1, assuming B.1.1 actually was present here.

    • Poission 18.2
      18 August 2020 at 12:38 pm

      Determined to link the outbreak to a government Failure at the border.

      There is a quarantine failure with a staff member ,who however has a different genome.

      The new development here is a maintenance worker at the Rydges Hotel isolation facility in Auckland testing positive. He has no regular contact with guests and he isn't linked to the existing cluster.

      Genome sequencing has shown a link between this worker and a returnee who travelled from the US at the end of July.

      A review of CCTV clips show no obvious connection between the two.

      There are six close contacts connected to the worker, all are in self-isolation and have tested negative. Three household contacts have been identified and tested.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300084680/live-exhausted-lab-workers-struggle-with-covid19-tests-questions-over-checks-for-border-staff

      • Muttonbird 18.2.1
        18 August 2020 at 1:32 pm

        I feel like this is the only case of a border worker (not even a border worker really) to have tested positive? So far at least. And it's not even one responsible for the Auckland cluster.

        Doesn't this suggest the the border workers were taking care of themselves all along with good practice and that the opposition's drive to find a breach because of testing is a load of shite?

        • Poission 18.2.1.1
          18 August 2020 at 1:46 pm

          Doesn't this suggest the the border workers were taking care of themselves all along with good practice

          Um no,there was an absence of sentinal surveillance prior.Look at the containment actions taken after the horse had bolted.

          https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases/results-covid-19-positive-cases-under-investigation-returned

          • Muttonbird 18.2.1.1.1
            18 August 2020 at 2:08 pm

            What I'm saying is, assuming all border workers have now been tested (I don't know if this is true) and come up negative apart from this one maintenance worker (I don't know if this is true either), doesn't that show border practice was fine?

            Ruining my theory might be that a border worker in July may have become infected, not been symptomatic, has recovered without symptoms but not before transmitting the virus to case zero of the Auckland cluster. Seems unlikely.

            • Muttonbird 18.2.1.1.1.1
              18 August 2020 at 2:21 pm

              Air Commodore Darren Webb said it was the first time a staff member at a managed isolation had tested positive.

              There might be more border workers, MIQ workers test positive in the coming days but this guy is the first to test positive.

              Having said that, I hate this tendency for people to downplay symptoms. It is really dangerous. If you feel unwell, stay home, ffs.

              https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12357481

            • Poission 18.2.1.1.1.2
              18 August 2020 at 2:21 pm

              The rydges case is troublesome.

              The man in the centre of this had health checks at work when he returned to work but the symptoms were put down to an existing condition.

              Woods said the man passed his health checks at work.

              "He passed his health check in terms of the temperature … he had his test on Thursday, that's all we can tell you at this time,"

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300084680/live-13-new-coronavirus-cases-found-in-community-one-case-not-connected-to-auckland-cluster

              The response to the ak cluster ( genomic difference) suggests there may be a maritime breach (which was always a soft border) such as stevedores,pilots,etc.

              • Muttonbird …
                18 August 2020 at 2:27 pm

                Yes, they have thrown a lot at ports and truckies recently (some of who are refusing tests, I hear). This suggests they are concerned about port workers mixing with foreign crew.

                I would have said it is the responsibility of the ports themselves to adhere to MoH border guidelines. Maybe you could tag MPI a little bit but it differs from immigration and MIQ which are clearly government run. You could say baggage handlers are in the same boat (heh) as port workers.

                • Treetop …
                  18 August 2020 at 3:36 pm

                  Two main reasons for refusing a test.

                  1. If you have it fear of losing your job.

                  2. Medication legal or illegal detected.

                  Possibly just the virus is checked for.

                  I have been listening for the last 30 mins to parliament. Just as I expected Collins expects a different outcome (the impossible no Covid cases) to other countries.

                  • Muttonbird …
                    18 August 2020 at 3:53 pm

                    As far as I know the Covid sick leave 14 day payment is still in place. Trucking firms need to be hauled into line if they are threatening drivers for taking sick-leave. If they are contractors wage subsidy is there.

                    I am aware of rumours some truck drivers are heavy amphetamine users.

                    • greywarshark …
                      18 August 2020 at 8:42 pm

                      I hope the truckies are not getting into the situation that they were in the USA years ago, taking uppers and downers, pushing themselves, not having proper stops and decent food. One got into that cycle and ran down some people and/or into a store. I think a dietitian considered it a sort of sugar high, putting out the person's body systems. Driving for too long hours.

      • Pat 18.2.2
        18 August 2020 at 5:47 pm

        Love this narrative about 'failure;…FFS this is the unknown and everybody is learning on the job…we have no idea about potential lines of transmission.

        There have been some questionable acts but no failure of intent.

        time to get real

    • ScottGN 18.3
      18 August 2020 at 12:54 pm

      She took the unusual step of telegraphing the claims to the media this morning ahead of QT too. Which perhaps suggests she isn’t confident that the info she has will get her a big enough bang for her buck or that maybe events may overtake her as the day goes on?

  19. Jum 19
    18 August 2020 at 12:05 pm

    Vegetable growers are complaining about the delay in getting staff into harvesting areas because of Akld/Waikato covid 'border'.

    Before that people were complaining that the border restrictions were not tough enough.

    People were complaining about being turned back because of no exemptions, but exemptions were available early on.

    I'm complaining about people complaining when they got what they wished for – tough border control.

    The real issue – people blocking the traffic were travelling without good reason but nobody was complaining – funny that.

  20. Tricledrown 20
    18 August 2020 at 12:08 pm

    National have another outbreak of footnmouth Gerry meandering Brownlee with another conspiracy theory media bias.

    • SPC 20.1
      18 August 2020 at 12:21 pm

      It's expression of a fear that the MSM will fact check their political messaging, National are trying to warn the media off by sending in the one man who has no credibility left to lose.

      • greywarshark 20.1.1
        18 August 2020 at 8:47 pm

        I was talking to a Chch woman tonight about the stress of waiting for the election and getting Labour back in. She hasn't got good things to say about Brownlee. Was talking about the debacle about sweeping decisions about the red zone and how it hurt the people living there, still getting over it and trying to get settled. Apparently back then there was a rush to do this and that, resulted in one woman going shopping in the morning and came back and her house was demolished. Everything seems to have been lost, all her possessions, all the precious family photos etc. Pretty legal? Pretty incredible.

  21. PaddyOT 21
    18 August 2020 at 12:50 pm

    Light lunchtime relief. When reading the article every time the word "emu" or " Eric" or "he" is mentioned replaced it with my favourite name "Judith" or "she".

    Judith flees rural Auckland paddock in search of love.

    Says Foster an Animal Welfare officer, " I had never caught a Judith before, so I started Googling how to do it,” As Judith has sharp claws and a “forceful kick”, Foster and her colleagues had to be extra careful in their capture attempt.

    Says the owner Goodley, " Even I’ve got to keep looking over my shoulder when she’s following me around the paddock.”

    She is “strutting her stuff” with her 20 sheep friends.

    “She loves roaming around the paddock showing off she’s the tallest thing in there,” Goodley said.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/122480054/eric-the-emu-flees-rural-auckland-paddock-in-search-of-love?cid=app-android

  22. Patricia Bremner 22
    18 August 2020 at 3:22 pm

    PaddyOT @ 21 Thanks… Best of the day haha!! I will have fun with that… light relief.

  24. greywarshark 24
    18 August 2020 at 3:54 pm

    The Progressive Party – small but sounds beautifully motivated. https://www.progressiveparty.co.nz/

    Progressive Party policies include maximising NZ’s self-reliance. We fully accept that NZ’s standard of living is built on its trade with the rest of the world, so maximising our self-reliance is not a call for protectionism.

    What it does mean, in the first instance, is ensuring our ability to meet our basic needs so that we can relate to the rest of the world from a position of strength.

    We invite you to browse our website and discover a little more about who we are and what we are advocating

    Bruce Dyer has been living his principles for a long time.https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122187124/cofounder-of-new-party-bruce-dyer-to-stand-in-nelson-electorate

    • lprent 24.1
      18 August 2020 at 4:17 pm

      Last I heard they hadn’t hit the 500 signatures…
      Ummm – yes.
      https://elections.nz/democracy-in-nz/political-parties-in-new-zealand/register-of-political-parties

      The Progressive party currently aren’t on the register.

      The Heartland party has no constitution and rules. They may have to hurry up.
      Nor does The Advance New Zealand Party.

      What in the hell is the Tea party? Umm their constitution has as the second clause..

      The Party may also be known as the New Zealand Taxpayers and Entrepreneurs Alliance, still
      abbreviated as “TEA Party”, for the purposes of the Electoral Act 1993.

      Umm The ONE party. Oh their constitution appendix has (with tabs between the words?)…

      ONE PARTY FAITH STATEMENT:
      1. We believe in only one God, eternally existent in three persons;
      God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
      Matt 28:19 1 John 5:7

      The Vision New Zealand Party sounds awfully similar with this as their first principle

      Believe there is only one God, who is undivided and inseparable in
      essence, and within this one essence there are three eternal
      distinctions, the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit.
      They recognize the Holy Bible to be the Word of God, which is infallible
      and the supreme authority in all matters of faith and morals, upon
      which governing mandates should be founded and measured.

      I know all of the rest of the parties. Ok that was an amusing few minutes looking at the new kids on the block.
      Now enough procrastination – back to finding out why NetworkManager thinks that the wifi module is unavailable.

    • PaddyOT 24.2
      18 August 2020 at 6:18 pm

      Thanks for this refreshing reflection Greywarshark. This alternative thinking/vision has been an area on my mind.

      For the knockers the Party's manifesto is worthy of space and discussion
      "
      • All people can fulfil their basic needs for food, clothing, housing, medical care and education,

      • All human beings can freely develop their physical, mental and spiritual potentials,

      • All human beings experience human rights such as physical integrity, equality and freedom,

      Moving together and for each other we can develop our individual and collective potential. "

      Even today watching Parliament live angered me. In this unparalleled reconvening it should have been a precious space for meaningful conversations about all our forward wellbeing. Instead the time was hijacked for point scoring. Parliamentary time today was an expensive rort on taxpayer's money when the questions today had already been answered through various channels.

      It is hard to describe a type of angst or is it fury that I feel about a void of action, a void of policy and little voicing of even near future solutions for addressing entrenched injustices that contunue to cause longterm misery for so many.

      What do other main Parties offer?

      "Homo economicus, the everyman postulated by economic theorists, is an atomized individual who is relentlessly driven to maximize his material advantages through the market not matter what the social costs. "

      "NOW is the starting point upon which we can build a political framework of access, sharing, equality and social well-being."

      http://www.onthecommons.org/imagining-new-politics-commons#sthash.WryThWCI.dpbs

      Another perspective is, IMO , an inabilty to let go of "ego" . Missing in the main is even a hint of decolonisation policies, systems thinking other than measures I have seen in the Green's platform.

      "Decolonisation goes beyond diversity and inclusion. It is the commitment to make marginalised communities un-marginalised by recognising them as part of the whole and welcoming them as agents of change."

      https://medium.com/@londondevnetwork/decolonising-systems-thinking-57eebc0a94e9

      "The most effective visions will show people the better world in meaningful concrete ways, lay out a clear process for change and be clear on who can make the change within a system and structure."

      The dominant feeling I have is that change will not happen with this election's offerings because a type of criminal act has taken place. That act has been the stealing of space for the voices of the people to be addressed. The crime is a theft of democracy by the likes of those with a self interest agenda to gain Power. The greatest vile collaborator is the MSM.

      • Pat 24.2.1
        18 August 2020 at 6:27 pm

        change will not happen because too many dont wish it so…its not rocket science.

        • PaddyOT 24.2.1.1
          18 August 2020 at 6:56 pm

          Is that so Pat?

          Your view and dismissal belittling a view with " it's not rocket science" about sums up 2020. Today in Parliament was the same said in multiple ways, " Any view but mine is all shit." And repeat.

          Btw. The links provided were some of many similar ‘expert’ voices.

          • Pat 24.2.1.1.1
            18 August 2020 at 7:00 pm

            easy to disparage…care to make an argument that disputes my position?

            • PaddyOT 24.2.1.1.1.1
              18 August 2020 at 7:18 pm

              I did I posted a view from many voices.

              In an instant barely enough time to even tead a link, you were the disparaging one.

              "… it's not rocket science" , you might as well have stated your superior view by calling me a " dumbass" .

              Your statement

              " too many dont wish it so". Who ? Explain please this writing off of the masses of people enduring injustice.
              Irony is your action is what was reflected in my post.

              Could be you might be one of the causes of people giving up TS.

              • Incognito …
                18 August 2020 at 7:30 pm

                Conflating opinion with “rocket science” is silly, I agree. But there have been quite a few opinion polls recently.

                Taking things personal when they’re not, is setting yourself up for a shit fight.

                There are many reasons why people come and go from TS. Unless you have done an exit poll, you don’t know their reasons and can only speculate. The vast majority of page views (visits) of TS are silent readers.

                • PaddyOT …
                  18 August 2020 at 8:43 pm

                  It's not taken personally Incognito.

                  It is the action and intent of his putdown on other's that is detrimental.

                  I have read Pat's posts today and applying the same post under his own views or anyone's is corrosive to any dialogue.
                  Put Pat's comment under his long post made with considerable effort today and see the effect- 18 August 2020 at 10:58 am

                  "… if sustainable planning for economic recovery was solely the government’s problem, with no parallel obligation on business to look in the mirror…."

                  Then apply the action of 'instantly stomp on it .. you dumbass.'

                  So for reflection, if I posted this same comment instantly under your well considered input of posts I believe you would find it unacceptable.

                  Or let this comment stand as a model for other commentators and 'just give up on change you dolts'

                  "change will not happen because too many dont wish it so…its not rocket science."

                  • Pat …
                    18 August 2020 at 9:05 pm

                    "I have read Pat's posts today and applying the same post under his own views or anyone's is corrosive to any dialogue.
                    Put Pat's comment under his long post made with considerable effort today and see the effect- 18 August 2020 at 10:58 am

                    "… if sustainable planning for economic recovery was solely the government’s problem, with no parallel obligation on business to look in the mirror…."

                    You are aware that you have quoted Gordon Campbell?…and the post is brief as almost all my posts are…I dont do verbose.

                  • greywarshark …
                    18 August 2020 at 9:07 pm

                    PaddyOT

                    If you can be a bit tolerant – everyone who comes and blogs about politics is special – all concerned to get change, better things, but how? And all have particular gifts and knowledge and perceptions. Gradually an understanding of that person's mind is gained and then when they seem faulty you know where they are coming from.

                  • Incognito …
                    18 August 2020 at 9:19 pm

                    Ok, the written word lacks intonation and is often (?) perceived differently, in a qualitative sense, than intended. This can lead to endless misunderstandings.

                    If you reply to one of my comments that it is not rocket science, I would most likely ask you why or simply let it go.

                    OTOH, if you were to call me a dumbass, I would take that as a personal insult, in the first instance.

                    It all depends on the context (e.g. topic, thread, commenter, etc.) and on the mood I am in at the time.

                    I hope that makes sense.

              • Pat …
                18 August 2020 at 8:12 pm

                i will confess i have not yet read the links (though I shall) but make the observation that the greens have been promoting progressive policies for decades and to date capture (?) around 6 -7% of the voting publics support…there is a disconnect between what people say they want and what they are prepared to support.

                It is not as I wish it to be

      • greywarshark 24.2.2
        18 August 2020 at 8:57 pm

        Hi PaddyOT I was talking to someone who has studied philosophy tonight and we agreed that the education system needs to teach how to analyse, simplify, check something with critical analysis to get to the basis of what it's about. She mentioned Plato, I've got a book about his thoughts, but as I haven't read it I haven't experienced anything but the satisfaction of having got it available.

        • PaddyOT 24.2.2.1
          18 August 2020 at 10:00 pm

          Tonight I think Socrates , Plato's teacher might be in the lead on 'thinking about thinking' studies.

          " The secret of change is to focus all your energy not on fighting the old, but building on the new."- Socrates.🤪

          Plato had constraints on how much he should explore as his mentor Socrates was executed for his views.
          🤭

          Thanks for the advice on tolerance, if you go back I wasn't. I replied to your post initially and got an intolerant responder. Life's served up some massive doozies on me and mine that other's would crumble under. I moved from some decades of teaching children through to adults onto looking at real change for voiceless victim's . I put my own money where my mouth is, sound research and widespread investigation from those at grassroots both workers and victims, to hear their voices. Overwhelming was the oppression that leads to silencing and misery of many. I worked with some amazing experts and put a Charitable Trust Deed together and my money at a time where political powers upheld 'top down' approaches.

          Bittersweet, is that over the next 15 years from inception 'we the collective' now of thousands of victims, are now one of the largest NGO charitable organisations in New Zealand that drives its business from the clients voices up. A switcheroo is that Government agents now refer their too hard to Us. It is also credit to a massive collaboration of like agencies that founders worked tirelessly to network with. Face to face audaciously with the BigWigs worked a treat too. As does being nimble in predictions of where political winds will blow for Strategic Plans.

          So I walk the talk and intolerance is not really my vice.

          • SPC 24.2.2.1.1
            18 August 2020 at 10:23 pm

            Cynicism is not intolerance. Though some are intolerant of cynics.

            And its not cyncism against proponents of change, its cyncism about whether people trapped in a battle for economic survival in a market rigged against many/most have the energy or hope left to buy into it. And that is based on the politics of a generation.

            But then generations come and go. And sometimes all that is required for the older generation to get out of the way.

            • PaddyOT 24.2.2.1.1.1
              18 August 2020 at 10:45 pm

              Where was the cynicism SPC, I was not being cynical, have you misread ?

              " "But then generations come and go. And sometimes all that is required for the older generation to get out of the way."

              What are you meaning here?

              • SPC …
                18 August 2020 at 11:00 pm

                No. You accused Pat of being intolerant for being a cynic.

                I'll end it there.

                • PaddyOT …
                  18 August 2020 at 11:10 pm

                  There you go again SPC putting your own spin and nasty twists in to uphold false views. Shades of last week when you pissed all over people with your dangerous plague theorizing and then failed to answer for your targetting people maliciously.

                  • SPC …
                    18 August 2020 at 11:25 pm

                    change will not happen because too many dont wish it so

                    Pat's comment is near to an example of cynicism.

                    I replied to your post initially and got an intolerant responder

                    You described his comment as intolerant.

                    The facts are the facts. We are done.

                    I’ve been on blogs a long time, and you are one the quickest to make personal attacks on others that I have seen.

                    • PaddyOT …
                      19 August 2020 at 12:49 am

                      SPC go back on all my input, read and then apologise for this,
                      " I’ve been on blogs a long time, and you are one the quickest to make personal attacks on others that I have seen." Show where there was personal attacks on anyone, as you have continued to do even in your putdowns continuously.

                      On your cannabis users and employers ? theory talking past a commentor it ends with, "The current discriminatory regime is bad for our economy."

                      No foundation given.

                      And on denouncing someone's post re population change this small portion of your way out there theory and no sources cited-:

                      "All pre pandemic thinking (old people at risk) … and with no awareness of the risk of super bugs (antibiotics into Chinese pigs still) on the ability of hospitals to provide old people with new knees hips etc."
                      (( WTF?))

                      "Global warming impact on old age health … nothing …"

                      "Sure contracpetion and education reduce the amount of children women have, but egg storage and looser rules about surrogacy may mitigate that."

                      Onto pissing on a credible well researched opinion you expound this-

                      "Given breaking Oz and US into economically dependent satellites is part of their three circles ambition for the Pacific, which they have barely tried to hide, there is nothing manufactured about it.
                      For mine it is going to be hilarious, when the West embraces Russia as part of containment of China, how many people are going to turn on a dime."

                      Still no reference for your ' findings' .

                      Just screeds and screeds of your theories with no foundations offered to overide what others say.

                      Best ever, your own pithy theory to put down another researched commentary you felt had no evidence when it did – :
                      "saying something does not exist if it does not have a creation date is spurious." Then you had once more put your made up theory in and still NO evidence.

                      The pattern is like observing ' little boy dashing in from across the playground' to put the biff in. Still no accountability for trollie type false statements. Go you !

                    • SPC …
                      19 August 2020 at 1:04 am

                      Oh my gosh I have a stalker …surprise

                    • lprent []
                      19 August 2020 at 8:39 am

                      It isn’t hard on this site. Press the name in the recent comments bar on the right in the desktop version.

                    • SPC …
                      19 August 2020 at 9:11 am

                      There is also 28.1.1 Open Mike 15/8.

          • greywarshark 24.2.2.1.2
            19 August 2020 at 12:28 pm

            Thanks PaddyOT but you have sounded off sharply at people writing here. I think that is intolerant. I should know because I have caught myself doing that. And sometimes showing intolerance is needed otherwise you get to be just a limp rag.

            We all bring our own experiences and perceptions to the mix. Yours may be more knowledgable about problems that others seem to brush off. But If you can't discuss and describe then you don't get the best out of a forum.

            Thanks for the sayings.

  25. Muttonbird 25
    18 August 2020 at 4:31 pm

    This guy.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/08/coronavirus-new-zealanders-reveals-his-experience-in-managed-isolation-facility.html

    I wonder if there's any connection between Judith Collins replying to his "thesis" and him appearing on the AM Show?

    Did Duncs tell the nation how many MIQ workers have tested positive?

    • Jum 25.1
      18 August 2020 at 4:46 pm

      I'm more interested in knowing when he contacted the 'higher ups' and when he contacted Garner.

      • Muttonbird 25.1.1
        18 August 2020 at 4:59 pm

        Unless two or more of them knew each other personally before this, I reckon it went like this:

        Dubai property lawyer Lunjevich writes to Collins about what the bus driver said (why did he ask the bus driver that question anyway?)

        Collins senses an opportunity to bag Ardern and writes to Garner asking him to put Dubai property lawyer Lunjevich on the show to bag Ardern.

        Garner dutifully sets up the zoom call and broadcasts.

        If they did know each other previously, it looks like a well planned attack with Dubai property lawyer Lunjevich being coached on what questions to ask and what to look for in MIQ in order to cause MoH and Ardern as much trouble as possible.

    • Jum 25.2
      18 August 2020 at 5:03 pm

      Muttonbird, he seemed to know Garner quite well? Friends tell me that he earlier called this person a ‘mate’, his ‘eyes and ears’ on AM.

      • Muttonbird 25.2.1
        18 August 2020 at 5:06 pm

        Yes, you can tell with Garner. If Lunjevich 'loves his country' so much, what was he doing in Dubai?

        If that were the case it would have gone like this:

        Duncs to Judith: “I have a RW friend coming in from Dubai. Will get him to scope MIQ and write to you about it, then we can put it on our show.”

        Judith: “My eyebrows are very interested.”

  26. greywarshark 26
    18 August 2020 at 5:02 pm

    There are some poor types around NZ who can't be shamed, always have an excuse, some odd reason. It seems that they will never 'go straight' – why release them amongst the public to start off some new criminal pursuit? Have an open prison managed farm where you can keep them busy with a pleasant life provided they stay in custody, or else they are in deep custard, or is that porridge.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/423826/phillip-john-smith-brazilians-do-not-recognise-escape-as-an-offence

    • ScottGN 27.1
      18 August 2020 at 5:13 pm

      Depends who the Snapchat private group was I suppose?
      One thing though, this breaking story and the Rydges Hotel maintenance worker testing positive mean that Judith’s gotcha-that-wasn’t in the House today will be lucky to survive the news cycle let alone dominate it.

    • greywarshark 27.2
      18 August 2020 at 5:14 pm

      That's what you get when you contract out government work to private contractors employing usually, poorly paid, workers.

      • Treetop 27.2.1
        18 August 2020 at 6:49 pm

        A defence force worker could have done the repair. Possibly having a pool of defence force workers is the way to go. There could be some sort of isolating system away from other defence force employees and families. A bit like a deployment for a month at a time and then 2 weeks in isolation.

    • Muttonbird 27.3
      18 August 2020 at 5:21 pm

      Outside of being coerced to do it, the only motivation I can think of is the guard was big-noting because a high profile returnee was on the list.

      Snap-chat vehicle would back this up.

      • McFlock 27.3.1
        18 August 2020 at 7:30 pm

        Whatever the motive, a good way to shaft a security career and land some charges.

        Unless the guard claims unsolicited emails were sent to a personal address, of course. /sarc

  28. Eco Maori 28
    19 August 2020 at 8:44 am

    https://youtu.be/hcaPyViy8wM

    The corrupt justice system of new zealand strikes

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