Excellent – let’s elect a government that wants to tax and spend more so in a few years we can say the last 3 Labour governments have ended in economic crisis.
I don’t think NZ has had the building boom that Ireland had.
It’s too expensive here to build houses so we mostly have just done up bathrooms and kitchens in old houses and then flogged them to each other for stupidly high prices and then felt smug that we were somehow better off.
Ireland had many empty spec houses which collapsed the price, I don’t think NZ has that excess of housing which could cause house prices to drop as dramatically as they did in Ireland.
I’m completely open to someone challenging that view however.
No, but nor is it a surprise at the NZHerald, NBR, Whaleoil, Kiwiblog, etc
Quelle surprise journalistic objectivity is dead.
David Cunliffe to Paul Henry: “I though you were supposed to be politically neutral.”
Paul Henry: “Don’t be stupid.”
Bit silly using the TVNZ resources though, free shot much?
Rightly or wrongly the private media carry bias sometimes openly sometimes not but they are none the less private and can spend their money how they choose. Using public resource to organise political events is naïve at best and leaves you open to the ensuing shit storm when you get found out.
Is there no one in Labour thinking critically about what goes on? The msm is bias and loves to pick holes and create controversy (see baby bonus) is it to much to ask that someone is looking at things from a critical angle to minimise the openings? ie making sure the hand out to media on the day matches the one on the website?
Ok in this instance Shane is a member and prospective candidate, if he cant see that organising and holding a political presentation using the resource of the state broadcaster leaves him wide open and labour by association to a media shit storm is he a good candidate?
I agree; this says something about Shane’s judgement. He isn’t a candidate though, is he?
However, if Labour are to be judged by his behaviour, what do we make of the Prime Minister’s close relationship with a man who makes his living mocking dead children?
Concede now, with Dotcom and Banks still to have their days in court? With John Key having confessed his association with Cameron Slater? With National under 50% in a Fairfax poll? The same National that appointed their former chief of staff to the TVNZ board?
hasn’t the slater connection with key died already in the public mind if it ever gained traction? despite what Slater and his followers think, the majority of kiwis will have no idea who is without constant reminding.
Fair enough comment, Labour as a whole party tho is a pretty broad church with a lot of different people working away at a lot of different things so while Labour will cop some flak over Taurima’s use of the TVNZ emails and in one instance what appears to be a meeting room you have to draw a long bow to tie the Party or David Cunliffe to being responsible for such actions,
Obviously there is a wider cloak worn by both the Party and David Cunliffe which makes them in the public eye responsible for everything anyone with any connection to the Party says or does,
Shane Taurima, pretty much a johnny come lately to the Labour Party having been a member for barely a year has done Himself no favors if He really intends to seek the Labour Party nomination to be the Parties candidate in the Tamaki-Makaurau electorate being vacated this year by Slippery the Prime Ministers lap-dog Pita Sharples…
only as surprising as all the national links at tvnz, rnz, commerce comission, productivity commision…..
ok – its against company policy – you wont get me complaining there. But its hardly crime of the century or a major conspiracy and it totally ignores all the other rather obvious political appointees at tvnz
whats next? “labour candidate eats unpaid for biscuit at church fundraiser” ?
But Patrick Gower is openly barracking for the Government and openly revelling in dirt real or imagined to bring against the Left. So that is OK and who would dare complain. Steven Joyce would smother a complainer with smarm and condescension.
The January 18 hui was attended by Labour leader David Cunliffe and other MPs but a spokesman for Cunliffe stressed yesterday that the event was held at a marae, and not at TVNZ.
This morning Cunliffe said Taurima’s actions were a “lapse in judgement”.
“I’m sure that Taurima is, no doubt, a very good person, but he has shown a lapse of judgement in that regard,” he told Radio New Zealand.
“It’s now a matter for him and his former employer, and I’m sure that he realises that.”
Cunliffe said it was not necessarily a case of the state broadcaster being held to higher standards but two principles were central to the role of the news media.
“First is, the media should be neutral and unbiased and free from political influence and involvement. That should apply to all media, and it should apply to all parties including the Labour party.
“Secondly the people in high-profile positions such as in broadcasting roles must take extra care to ensure that their right to personal freedom of expression is separated from their professional role.”
“From Parliament’s point of view, the Privileges Committee provides an appropriate vehicle to resolve the points of conflict and to hold individuals to account. But from the Prime Minister’s and the Government’s point of view, that is not enough.
“Governments and Ministers must enjoy the confidence of the Parliament and, ultimately, the public. Faced with today’s revelations, it is no longer acceptable for Mr Peters to offer bluster and insults where simple, courteous, honest answers are required.
“It is no longer acceptable or credible for Helen Clark to assert a facade of confidence in her Foreign Affairs Minister and to fail to ask the plain questions of him that she has a duty to the public to ask.
“Faced with today’s revelations, Helen Clark must stand Mr Peters down as a Minister. That is what I would do if I were Prime Minister. Helen Clark has stood Ministers from Labour down for much less.
I heard the interviews on Nine to Noon this morning. Basically, I learned a couple of things. Ryan was treading very carefully in how she framed some questions, but, I could see the implications she was opening up.
1.Bias is judged by what actually goes on air. Editors and managers have a role here. No-one had complained about political bias in any of Shane Taurima’s programs.
2.Issue of misuse of work facilities – managers have a role to play in overseeing this. How good was the line of management in checking on this? This is an operational and management problem. Even Craig Foss was taking this line.
3.If there are questions about Taurima’s (and others) use of work resources, the first step is for an in-house inquiry. While that is happening, the precedents are that there is public name suppression of the accused.
This is what Ryan was treading carefully around. Basically saying it’s an election year, and everyone needs to be careful. How was it that these accusations were leaked to the media, before the in-house inquiry? Did the leak come from within TVNZ?
4.My judgement on what Ryan was not saying, but treading around, was this question: Was the leak to the media politically motivated? Anyone within TVNZ should first have gone to their managers with the complaint. If they leaked to the media, it could be seen as politically motivated. However, there was a possibility that the leak came from someone outside TVNZ – so not a good idea to make accusations of it being politically motivated.
5.Taurima accepted he had crossed the line in misusing TVNZ resources etc. He said he had always been professional in not being biased as an editor. And no-one is accusing him of this.
Once the info is in the public arena, it’s going to be used politically in an election year.
However, the other people in Shane’s team should have had name suppression until at least a formal inquiry had been conducted.
Doesn’t matter who leaked it, reported it, mentioned, it labour was doing something really dodgy, got caught doing something they shouldn’t have been doing and now hey have to pay the price.
Be interesting to see how far up the chain this goes, if I was National I’d throw Shane a bone to get him to squeal, because lets be honest the chances of this this being some rogue activist working his own agenda is pretty remote.
Actually, it does matter who leaked it. The accused should get fair process as in precedents.
Yes. The managers also need to be investigated – they should have been keeping Taurima in check.
Ultimately though, everyone knew Taurima had stood for Labour. If people thought his programmes were biased they should have put in a formal complaint. Why wait til now?
The proof is there in the programmes for all to see. It was there before – nothing’s changed.
Taurima was stupid. His co-workers deserve fair process.
I’m more interested in knowing who in the Labour hierarchy knew what was going on. This could get very messy and damaging for all who are involved.
One positive though is TVNZ could be finally cleaned out of all the political activists(looking at you labour/greens) that infest that place and New Zealanders may eventually end up with a public broadcaster who is actually politically neutral and can present the news without a political bias.
“One positive though is TVNZ could be finally cleaned out of all the political activists(looking at you labour/greens) that infest that place and New Zealanders may eventually end up with a public broadcaster who is actually politically neutral and can present the news without a political bias.”
Yeah, offload more of your crap logic, and that is why we need to find out what really happened, how “serious” that poor judgment of Taurima was, and who actually obtained the information that supposedly reveals so much, now exploited ruthlessly by an anyway very biased journalist like Patrick Gower.
This is all coming at a very convenient time for National and Key, distracting from questions about how he knows so many details about who visited Kim Dotcom and how often, which a “whale-spew” blogster would hardly have known himself alone.
It is also surprising how little concerned Key and the Broadcasting Minister are. Is this perhaps not something that came out of that once quoted “top drawer” of John Key, so that it could serve as some justification to prepare for the privatisation or sale of TVNZ? Does it not suit them so well, as a reason for shutting down any remaining “dissent” amongst TVNZ staff, and for “bringing them into line”, so that NO critical interviews are conducted anymore, when National Party politicians appear on current affairs shows or the news?
Strangely Shane Taurima never struck me as that biased, he was actually one of the few, do dared to ask the hard questions, that nobody else at TVNZ ever dared to ask.
“.Does it not suit them so well, as a reason for shutting down any remaining “dissent” amongst TVNZ staff, and for “bringing them into line”, so that NO critical interviews are conducted anymore, when National Party politicians appear on current affairs shows or the news?
Strangely Shane Taurima never struck me as that biased, he was actually one of the few, do dared to ask the hard questions, that nobody else at TVNZ ever dared to ask..”
i agree with those two paragraphs..
..i have been thinking the first para all day..
..and i agree that he was a good interviewer..
..and i think he was as hard on everyone..
..i watched a lot of native affairs when he was running it..
..and i repeat..he was one of the few who would ask the hard questions..
..of anyone..as far as i cd see..
..and the likes of bennett and henare cryng ‘poor me!’..
..is just utter bullshit..
..yes..taurima was a fool..
..but everyone now lining up and dumping on him like he is the anti-christ..
This is worrying stuff, and I am a bit surprised it does not get addressed all that much here on TS. Perhaps we should start looking at what kind of persons we are dealing with, who “brought” us this story, and are apparently out on a bit of a “crusade” against Labour:
“3 News Political Editor Patrick Gower has been put on notice that his performance must improve if he is to keep his job.”
“Questions have been raised about Gower’s leadership style ever since he took over as political editor from Duncan Garner.
One person inside the 3 News camp has accused Gower of being “tight”, and of failing to motivate his colleagues.”
“The journalist, speaking on condition of anonymity, said: “the team is just really flat and unmotivated. Whenever we have a team gathering to celebrate a great story it’s always instant coffee and wine biscuits.”
…”It is understood that Gower is still in contact with Garner, and that Garner may be offering support and advice to Gower.
“We send each other texts occasionally,” Gower has previously admitted. “But I’m my own leader.”
Gower has also appeared preoccupied with uncovering scandals and chasing MPs down building corridors, and has failed to tackle the important business of keeping everyone in the office moderately contented.”
Who is HE, the “ugly one” as the TV3 ‘Political Editor’?
3 News Political Editor
MediaWorks NZ
Privately Held; 1001-5000 employees; Broadcast Media industry
November 2012 – Present (1 year 4 months) Wellington
3 News Political Reporter
MediaWorks NZ
Privately Held; 1001-5000 employees; Broadcast Media industry
February 2010 – November 2012 (2 years 10 months)
Political Reporter
New Zealand Herald
Public Company; 501-1000 employees; Newspapers industry
July 2008 – December 2009 (1 year 6 months)
Investigative Reporter
New Zealand Herald
Public Company; 501-1000 employees; Newspapers industry
July 2006 – July 2008 (2 years 1 month)
Sports Editor
TNT Magazine
Privately Held; 11-50 employees; Publishing industry
August 2005 – January 2006 (6 months)
Reporter
IHS Jane’s
Public Company; 201-500 employees; IHS; Information Services industry
July 2004 – July 2005 (1 year 1 month)
Reporter
New Zealand Herald
Public Company; 501-1000 employees; Newspapers industry
February 2000 – February 2004 (4 years 1 month)
Education:
Patrick Gower – New Zealand’s Education
Auckland University of Technology
Graduate Diploma, Journalism
1999 – 1999
Victoria University of Wellington
BA (Hons), Political Science
1995 – 1998
Own Comment:
Well, he has a DIPLOMA in journalism, which is not quite a “high quality” “tertiary” education, being one of those short courses that prepare so many to “qualify” as “journalists” here in New Zealand. Those courses at AUT maybe ok to ready oneself to work for a community newspaper, but compared with internationally comparable journalism skills, it is not thrilling stuff. I concede he had a degree from Victoria Uni, but who knows how well he did there?
After that it was some longer involvement with the NZ Herald, and then off to Mediaworks, where he still is with TV3.
He seems to be “mates” with Duncan Garner, another one with a somewhat questionable track record, in some aspects:
Quote from Wikipedia:
“In the wake of the 2010 MPs expenses scandal, Labour politician Chris Carter alleged Garner said “I am going to fucking well get you” to him at an Air New Zealand Koru Club lounge in 2009. The head of TV3 news and current affairs Mark Jennings replied saying Garner did not have a grudge, and “Carter is a serial offender on expenses … it’s Duncan’s job to shine the light on that.””
P.S.: The way Gower has presented the “revelations”, which do appear to expose some poor judgment and unprofessional conduct by Taurima, is like a “witch hunt”. He blows it well out of proportions, almost raising suspicion that TVNZ is a hive full of Labour activists and strategists, who have managed to start their election campaign from their work base at TVNZ. I fear this will lead to TVNZ going to be extremely tight on any future “risks” of being seen to be biased in any way, especially when it comes to Labour politicians. The National friendly tone of most of TVNZ’s broadcast will now get a cast iron affirmation, hence the Prime Minister and Minister of Broadcasting are anything but worried.
More insight into the social lives and connections of media journalists and “media personalities” that are the top dogs in the MSM (mainstream media). It seems to be revolving not just around work, but also booze ups and dinners in various circles, all somehow being “matey” with each other:
“It wasn’t as though I’d planned to reduce broadcaster Duncan Garner to a drunk, sobbing and accusatory wreck when I went around to his house in New Windsor to profile him for Metro. Things perhaps got out of hand. We both enjoy a drink. Drinks.”
“Patrick Gower, who succeeded Garner as political editor at TV3, also talked about Garner’s loyalty and support. Garner headhunted Gower, taking him from the Herald to TV3, chatting him up outside parliament one day with the stirring line: “I’m tired of fighting these pricks. I need some help.” Gower: “He had me at pricks. What fucken better job offer is there? “ Even so, Gower was afraid of failing in the new job, his first on TV. But he said Garner stood by him in his first difficult year. “He made a big commitment to looking after me. It was a lot of extra work, but he never shirked his responsibility.”
Looking after Gower, looking after me – what was Garner, some kind of godfather? True, he was as a big as Tony Soprano. Radio Hauraki presenter Matt Heath has memorably described him as, “A couch inside a suit.” Did he look after Guyon Espiner, too? He had gone one better than that.”
Yeh, but what with Paddy Gower, Paul Henry, the chap at NZonAir, te Herald, jason Ede, Key DPF and Whaleoil et al the purpose of the media pack do seem to be leaning toward preventing a change of government rather than any sort of watchdog kind of thing…oh and Rachael Glucina??
It’s not so much that the parents were; “dumb ass”, so much as systematically misled by frauds and zealots [from your stuff link]:
“In 1998, a study by British doctor Andrew Wakefield was published in international medical journal The Lancet, linking the triple MMR vaccine – for measles, mumps and rubella – with an increased risk of autism. Thousands of parents boycotted the MMR jab before the research was eventually discredited.”
“There’s still the myth that there’s a problem with this [measles] vaccine,” Immunisation Advisory Centre director of research Helen Petousis-Harris said. “It’s taken many, many years to reassure people that this isn’t the case. It’s not only about protecting yourself but the rest of the population as well, and it is a disease we can eradicate if we get the rates up high enough.”
But then again, these tactics of spurious research and manufactured controversy leading to uncertainty, are not so very different from those of the; anti-floridation brigade, tobacco shills, and climate-deniers.
That study was debunked quite early on but when celebrities like Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey stick their oars in I guess the gullible are easily fooled
“Wakefield’s results could not be replicated, and he was struck off by the General Medical Council in 2010.” 12 years after the Lancet publication of that 1998 study.
Do you not even bother reading past the title of the links you post here?
To say; “it was discredited early”, implies that a study of 12 subjects that didn’t establish a causal relationship even on it’s own terms, ever had credibility. The 1998 Lancet article was not finally retracted until the week after the GMC decision in 2010.
“In October 2012, research published in PNAS, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, identified Wakefield’s 1998 paper as the most cited retracted scientific paper, with 758 citations, and gave the “reason for retraction” as “fraud”.”
My point was that PR did not appear to have read the article to which he linked. Also; “debunked” and “discredited” have different meanings.
The 748 citations within a 14year period indicate that many had an interest in furthering the fraud for their own purposes. Have a click on McFlock’s link to see how that turned out.
It seemed to me that PR was simply talking about something different than what the article said, as evidenced by the fact that he mentioned celebrity endorsements being a significant reason for why the public kept believing the lies, which were not mentioned in the article at all.
As far as lay-discussion on the internet, I see “debunked” and “discredited” in the context of PR’s comment as being the same thing.
That should’ve read; “The 758 citations within a 14year period…”, clumsy fingers!
I agree that; “PR was simply talking about something different than what the article said”, which is why he should have provided further evidence/ links to support his claim. This is not the first topic on which he has made unsubstantiated claims.
The important distinction between the two terms is:
Something that has been debunked was always bunkum.
Someone who has been discredited, originally had credibility which has been since been destroyed.
But then again, these tactics of spurious research and manufactured controversy leading to uncertainty, are not so very different from those of the; anti-floridation brigade, tobacco shills, and climate-deniers.
The parallels between tobacco, climate-deniers and wakefield are very close, as ISTR wakefield did the MMR fraud because he was developing a competing vaccine.
While i am not against vaccination at the population level …there is much that is not known
eg. doesnt the measles virus mutate ?….in which case it is a lot more complex than just immunizing for one strain of the virus…is it true that in the USA students who have been vaccinated still can get new strains of the virus …and in some cases they are worse off than if they hadnt been vaccinated at all, but had got the virus when they were children for a more all encompassing natural immunity ?
Vaccination is complex and even the experts are undecided on the long term collateral effects of it on the individuals health resilience integrity…maybe one needs to get viruses when young to rack up ones natural immunity for other diseases?
…just look at the controversy about the side effects of the meningitis vaccination program in Scandanavia….and then also there are about 49 different stains of meningititis
…i expect to be attacked for these heretical views , but I know there are doctors who also have reservations and some experts who have studied and developed vaccinations for years
..(.and no i cant give any citations and links because I cant be bothered to find them…but I have read them and i was given a book written by medical skeptics to read by a doctor who had reservations and wanted me to make up my own mind)
Saying ALL vaccinations are good, is just as naive as saying there is no benefit to any..
When first having children, and being given the choice I read many books – some linking to studies – from both the pro and anti vaccination sides, and there is evidence on both sides.
But any medication comes with side effects that may be magnified by genetic disposition, body chemistry at the time, health of your immune system, and any other medications or chemicals you may be taking.
It always strikes me as ridiculous that GP’s use the occasion of children visiting a doctor while ill, to ensure (and perhaps implement) vaccinations while their immune system is already compromised.
And remember that the industry is not squeaky clean themselves in terms of data.
The Hept-B vaccine comes from the same company that hid the negative anti-depressant Aropax results for many years, resulting in incorrect prescribing and harm to patients, including suicide and death.
The map linked to also does not provide what I would consider to be useful information. How many of those cases were vaccinated? This also happens in newspaper articles and reports about outbreaks.
The efficacy of vaccinations is an important part of the discussion.
Parents of infants were reassured by the Ministry of Health, by their doctors and nurses that the MENZ B vaccination would give their young children good protection through their school and uni years – the years that meningococcal B was the most dangerous and deadly.
Then as the vaccination programme was winding down it came out that NZ researchers already knew that the vaccination would only protect infants for less than 1 year, if that. No benefit plus plenty of risk.
A deceptive money making rort that was, with some pharmaceutical company collecting a nice pay packet for each useless dose administered.
Meningitis vaccines have been problematic as it is difficult to develop a vaccine against the strains which confers immunity beyond 3-5 years.
However the MENZ B was introduced during a specific outbreak in an attempt to curtail it continuing over a longer period. It was not a deceptive money making fort merely a calculated action by the then Minister and her advisors during a worrying outbreak.
Some of the newer vaccinations against meningococcal infection are significantly more effective.
So were parents of infants told exaggerated stories of the protection their children would receive?
Were parents of those infants told that any protection from the vaccine would probably not last until school age?
Was that information kept secret from parents so that management vaccination targets could be met, and what are the ethics of that?
And why should any parent who has been lied to, well shall we say ‘misled’, trust any reassurances that the newer vaccinations are “significantly more effective”.
Tell that to my friend whose healthy young nephew after receiving the MMR vaccine went downhill for 2 weeks and then died. The death certificate stated cause of death unknown. He was 2 years old. Coincidence – I doubt it.
I’m sorry to hear that but also glad that you shared his tale.
The kinds of statistics used by pharma companies and governments to determine whether or not a drug is safe unfortunately views these one off incidents as irrelevant noise – “coincidence” as you termed it.
And that’s even if the incident is properly categorised so that over time enough young deaths might pile up over time to become statistically noticeable in the records.
BTW huge numbers of drug adverse effects in NZ go completely unrecorded because there is no systematically thorough way of centrally capturing incidents.
“BTW huge numbers of drug adverse effects in NZ go completely unrecorded because there is no systematically thorough way of centrally capturing incidents.”
Northshoredoc, I understood that the reporting regime of adverse drug reactions sees only 1 in 10 adverse events logged. This is considered good by international standards – which is part of the problem – there is a lack of solid data to compare with other countries.
Like the useless Mumps vaccine that meant a younger male relative got the wretched disease aged 19. Whoopee, gives immunity through childhood then hits them when they are full grown and up for the major side effects.
“Mumps vaccine is the best way to prevent mumps. This vaccine is included in the combination measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) and measles-mumps-rubella-varicella (MMRV) vaccines. Two doses of mumps vaccine are 88% (range: 66-95%) effective at preventing the disease; one dose is 78% (range: 49%−92%) effective. The first vaccine against mumps was licensed in the United States in 1967, and by 2005, high two-dose childhood vaccination coverage reduced disease rates by 99%.”
As for the side effect reporting, used to take some of the common asthma drugs and during a couple of severe attacks, lots of drugs in system, lossof bladder control.
Mentioned this to the Docs, but it was years before it was recorded as a known side effect.
And the pharmac generic of a common antibiotic that brought half the family out in a rash.
some of those asthma drugs killed people…the cure was worse than the complaint….i know of one woman who died prematurely taking an asthma drug..her family blamed the drug
CV
It seemed to me that the anti virus team, for the outbreak of meningitis?, felt that they had only one lot of medication to use at the time and that further delay might lead to a cascade of problems further along in time. It could well have been that the lead time to obtaining and supplying better vaccine might be too long, by which time the willingness to fund it might have vanished and then nothing might get done.
Thats a lot of excuses for giving a lot of NZ infants a poorly researched vaccination costing tax payers over a hundred million dollars, and which conveyed to young infants almost no protection (a few months, if that).
As for being “against vaccination” – some vaccinations are of far more value than others. I am definitely against their indescriminate and poorly researched use eg. on children who were already immune to meningitis B bacteria.
Firstly, the decision as to what treatment is worthwhile or desirable for a patient should be undertaken in conjunction with patients and their families. Not just a few PhD/researcher types that you think are worthy of having an opinion or worthy of raising questions.
Secondly – if it takes more than ten thousand doses of a vaccination to prevent a single death or serious injury, I think that its utility to the individual starts becoming truly marginal and patients should be informed of that fact. That’s not even mentioning the $$$ being better spent on other areas of healthcare where there is more bang for the buck, bigger improvement in QALYs etc.
The utility of government funded immunisation has been looked at by the Ministry and PHARMAC who are charged with the funding of community and hospital medicines and vaccinations in NZ – they do a more than acceptable job of getting value for money compared to most other health agencies around the world.
Your second paragraph suggests that you understand neither the rationale for population based immunisation nor much else about public health. As I have stated previously in this discussion all patients/parents undergo informed consent prior to delivery of vaccinations although as you have demonstrated it is nigh on impossible to inform someone who doesn’t wish to be informed.
New Zealand had huge problems with Hep B prior to the introduction of vaccination this is why the MoH funded the vaccination FoC from the mid 80s and why Hep B incidence has decreased drastically over the last decades
Where’s the reasearch to show the causal connection between introduction of the vaccination and the “drastic” decline of Hep B rates and movement in other Hep rates, please.
So you declared a definite causal connection with drastic declines in hep B incidence but have only the most general non peer reviewed links to back it up? Ok.
I’m a chiropractor and I’ve taken some medical statistics at the graduate level, although I am not qualified in statistics per se.
Firstly, “anti-immunisation” is a nonsense allegation, like being “anti-pain killers.” There are some instances where their use is entirely necessary and some other instances where their use is definitely optional or not necessary.
Secondly, I didn’t ask for evidence that the Hep B vaccination is effective, I asked for evidence for your assertion that the Hep B vaccination was responsible for “dramatically” reducing the incidence of Hep B in NZ. These are two completely different questions.
I was interested as you jumped into a thread which was about measles and the MMR vaccine and proceeded to go off on a tangent, which i found odd and a bit reminiscent of some of the debating tactics of the anti immunisation activists in NZ and other jurisdictions.
I trust you are now happier about the value of hep B immunisation in NZ if not you should ask your tutor(?) in medical statistics.
Still interested to know which instances as a member of the public that you believe immunisation is as you say ‘ entirely necessary and some other instances where their use is definitely optional or not necessary.’
As it might provide some insight as to where the MoH have performed well or poorly in their efforts to educate the population as to the benefit of immunisation.
For clarity, although I would personally prefer not to be vaccinated at all, I have had vaccinations previously and received them for good reason. Once it enters the realm of 0.01% to 0.001% chance of personal benefit however, I really would not bother.
In that case, don’t beat around the bush. Just come straight out with the truth and give parents the information that there is next to zero chance that their child will directly benefit from the vaccination that you want them to authorise.
Another four high school children notified with Measles in Auckland over the last two days.
Can I encourage anyone with unvaccinated children at the schools of these kids to keep them at home for the next week and unless there is a very good reason not to vaccinate them please have them vaccinated in the near future at your local General practice.
But all of them are a fuck of a lot better than the disease they protect against (and in the case of multiple strains of a virus, e.g. influenza, the seasonal mix is based on the expected variants that year). To the degree that my personal belief is that hippies who refuse to immunise children based on non-medical grounds (e.g. allergic to vaccine) should be charged with child endangerment, failing to provide the necessities of life, or something similar.
What about parents who feed their children a steady diet of unhealthy food, should they be charged with endangering their kid’s health? Condemning the child to a life of obesity, diabetes, and all the resulting complications/discrimination might be worse than a dose of measles.
And what about govts that allow this food to be sold without sufficient controls; are they endangering child safety?
Even the US has now banned trans-fats, but this toxic substance does not even have to be labelled here (unless specific health claims are made about the foods they are in).
Obesity is a more gradual issue, and also has causes other than simple food intake. Si it would have to be an extreme case, and even then might be doubtful.
But immunisation is simply a clearly-defined and recorded act, like filling in a census form. Easier to verify and test.
@ McFlock….dont be such a bloody authoritarian fascist …what have you got against hippies?!
one of my best friends did not get her three sons immunised and she is/was not a “hippie” ….far from it…her sons have always had perfect health…and she has been a meticulous mother as regards their well-being
i was a bit young to be a “hippie” (.although i admired them a lot!)….and although i had my own children immunised for some things reluctantly ……and after quite some thought… and some time after they were very little babies ..i still wonder if i did the right thing ( my doctor was quietly skeptical about immunising very little babies…and some vaccines and the necessity of others)
it amazes me how self important and judgmental other doctors and people are of parents who decide not to vaccinate their children ( when the evidence is that health like education is multi -factoral and way beyond their control)…they need to loosen up imo
The thing i can’t get my head around McFlock is that you smoke, even though you know it decreases your time on this planet – you choose to do it and you may even say that it affects no one except yourself (although even if alone no man is an island eh). You choose and hold the right to choose as important to you even against overwhelming evidence that it isn’t good for you, the community and the planet and supports the multinational drug suppliers helping them get richer and destroy more of the planet – you know all that and you say you can do whateverthefuckyoulike – and i agree with that. But then you say that parents who choose to not immunize should be charged and what? Get their children taken off them? Given to law abiding good citizens like you? That to me is hypocritical and sanctimonious eh?…. Sure you’ll talk about the ‘other’ kids at risk and blah blah but really do you give a fuck? How do you reconcile those two positions mate because they seem a bit off to me. One set of doctors = good/agree. one set of doctors = bad/disagree. Difference?
Interesting thought, Marty, my smoking choice vs parents getting kids vaccinated.
Neither position disagrees with the doctors.
But the reason I smoke is quality of life. I enjoy it. Who enjoys measles?
Don’t get me wrong, I get the entire freedom of religion/belief thing, but I’m not sure that that includes anti-vac nutbars wanting their kids to be infected with virulent forms of various viruses.
my friend is certainly no idiot…and she wanted her kids to have the usual wild measles , mumps, chickenpox when they were young….if anything the immunised kids were a threat to her kids
Any parent that would rather their child get infected with a live virus rather than adead one is an idiot. And as for that “the immunised kids were a threat to her kids” it’s drivel.
Natural pathogens generate quite a different immunogenic response to those in vaccinations. Natural pathogenic exposure has consistently been shown to create longer lasting and more complete immunity, for instance. Well, if you survive.
“if anything the immunised kids were a threat to her kids”
Probably not – it’s the non-immunised kids who were a threat to her kids (just as non-immunised kids are a threat to kids who are not in robust health for reasons such as chronic illness).
Data to 26 April 2013 from the outbreak showed very few confirmed cases have caught measles after having had the MMR vaccine. The vast majority of confirmed measles cases are individuals who have never been vaccinated with MMR.
Less than 10 laboratory confirmed cases are reported to have previously received any MMR vaccination.
This emerging data suggests that in the outbreak area one dose of MMR vaccine protects against measles in more than 95 out of every 100 vaccinated, and two doses protects in around 99 out of every 100 vaccinated.
Hilarious. Trying to infer statistics from tiny numbers. Even five cases of children whose vaccination records weren’t properly kept or weren’t correctly searched for could dramatically change the ‘feel good’ statistics of 99 out of every 100 etc.
In fact, the 1455 cases are a fairly significant number but that isn’t the number that is of interest to me as being most vulnerable.
It’s this one:
Less than 10 laboratory confirmed cases are reported to have previously received any MMR vaccination.
In other words, just 5 or 10 cases where previous MMR vaccination was not correctly recorded or not correctly found would double this “less than 10” stat, and therefore blow out the ‘feel good’ ratios that they are promoting about how effective the vaccination is.
In other words, just 5 or 10 cases where previous MMR vaccination was not correctly recorded or not correctly found would double this “less than 10″ stat, and therefore blow out the ‘feel good’ ratios that they are promoting about how effective the vaccination is.
It’s not the 10 or 20 cases that are the “feel good” factor. It’s the order of magnitude in the rate.
edit: that’s 1435 cases in the non-vaccinated minority, 20 cases in the vaccinated majority.
McFlock …why do you keep calling people who want their children immunised naturally idiots?…….she is NO idiot!..( you are the IDIOT!)
….her boys are strong , tall, lean (no excuses for obesity) and nonsmokers ( no excuses for smokers)and moderate drinkers( no excuses for alcoholics or those who drink to excess)….they hold down good jobs despite only just being out of their teens…one is a musician …the other a trainee chef…and the other a zoo keeper
…what do you do?…apart from drink and smoke…you are not a doc are you?…ha aha…what is the longevity of docs?….how healthy are they? …do they abuse their own drugs?…..do they get little golden handouts for every little poor kid they jab their questionable needles in?…are they completely unbiased on the issue of vaccinations ( because I know some doctors do oppose blanket immunisation of kids and they are the ones I respect!
boring is in the mind and the heart of the beholder….
personally I am finding vaccine fanatics …( not even with good science or open minded inquiry about the possible long term and side effects)….who want to impose vaccines on everyone increasingly boring….and hypocritical
…i am quite shocked at the rigidity of some views expressed here and the determination by some that they are right and that their views on vaccination should be imposed on all parents ( otherwise it is child abuse..) quite ridiculous and disturbing!
I’m shocked that a parent would actually desire that their children be infected by virulent dieseases with known short and long term hazards rather than simply hide behind the vaccination efforts of other parents (let alone be immunised in a far safer manner than actually catching the disease).
As for the informed consent crap don’t give me that .About a decade ago, every high school student in the country had their details downloaded into the health system in pursuit of some vaccine or other and without the protocols being followed or parent consent obtained.
Nor should you get me started on Hutt Valley health’s consent form which is written in such a way as to imply that you must sign it rather than make an informed choice. Told the school I didn’t have to fill it out but they kept bleating about the nurse says you must and I’m damm sure they handed over the information against my express negative.
The health profession would do itself some good if they stopped the “we know what’s best for you” rubbish and actually respected the consent rules.
“eg. doesnt the measles virus mutate ?….in which case it is a lot more complex than just immunizing for one strain of the virus…is it true that in the USA students who have been vaccinated still can get new strains of the virus …and in some cases they are worse off than if they hadnt been vaccinated at all, but had got the virus when they were children for a more all encompassing natural immunity ?”
The measles vaccination that is currently given free of charge as part of the MoH well child scheme is extremely effective in the short and long term. it is definitely not better to try for natural immunity than to be vaccinated.
let me say again measles is an extremely serious illness which can be life threatening, about 1 in every 10 who get it need to be hospitalised, 30 percent will get complications and the consequences of getting it when pregnant or if you’re young and can’t be immunised are disastrous in around half of all cases.
yes i know…i had measles and mumps and chicken pox when i was a kid…as did most of my generation ( i am grateful i was immunised against TB, polio and tetenus)…but i dont regret getting measles , mumps and chickenpox
…however there did not seem to be an epidemic of meningitis around then( which is very serious and shares some of the characteristics of measles)
…who is to say that if you dont get a natural immunity to one virus eg measles ,either by contracting it or getting immunity via your parents…you are more not more susceptible to another eg meningitis?
……….ie maybe viruses are not the enemy as such but a necessary way that the body jump starts and primes the immune system? …for other more serious diseases eg cancer
….there is a lot they dont know about viruses…whether they are alive ,whatever that means….. and what causes epidemics eg the Spanish flu straight after WW1….and whether viruses have some sort of symbiotic almost conscious sharing with their host on very subtle levels
“who is to say that if you dont get a natural immunity to one virus eg measles ,either by contracting it or getting immunity via your parents…you are more not more susceptible to another eg meningitis?”
Well I’ll say it – that is just incorrect.
I find it strange that you say you don’t regret getting Measles, mumps and chickenpox – I’m guessing you would regret it if you’d have had serious complications ?
Immunisation is the safest way of priming the immune system against specific diseases being exposed to the active infectious agent via an infected person is the most dangerous way.
A number of viruses are linked to causing specific cancers, yes there is a great deal we don’t know about infectious agents, what we do know is that immunisation against a number of infectious bacteria and viruses is not only very safe and cost effective it is also among the most effective interventions we have in modern medicine.
dont believe in flu jabs either, unless you are old and frail…..there is nothing like a good flu to clear your system out and prime you up ( that is unless you get complications as you say…but I am willing to take the risk at the moment)
…the vaccination industry is a multi-billion dollar business …say no more…..and with it comes a lot of indoctrination
Dr. Jefferson also says little clinical evidence exists that the vaccines had any effect on length of hospital stay, time taken off work or the likelihood of death in adults, regardless of whether people were otherwise healthy or already had conditions such as asthma and cystic fibrosis.
He says vaccines given to children under the age of two have the same effect as a placebo.
The Daily Mail has a more colourful take: 115M quid flu jabs may be a waste of money.
Here’s one more for good measure. Flu vaccines “overhyped”
A report published by the Centre for Infectious Disease Research and Policy (CIDRAP) at the University of Minnesota says the tendency of governments to exaggerate the effectiveness of the flu vaccine misleads the public and hinders the development of new, better vaccines. Failure to tell the truth about the vaccine’s efficacy also risks undermining public confidence in mass immunisation.
CIDRAP’s director, Michael Osterholm, says he is a “strong proponent” of vaccination in general, but feels the flu vaccine has been “over-promoted”…
Douglas Fleming from the Royal College of General Practitioners’s Influenza Monitoring Unit says better vaccines are needed particularly for the elderly. He agrees the current vaccine has been “over-hyped by many people”.
A query on a related but slightly angled away from what you lot are discussing,topic, David Cunliffe’s COS was it that had to resign with the very painful Shingles,
Strange question this, but, does anyone know if she had a dose of flu in ‘swine flu’ year,
And, if the answer to that is in the affirmative did this dose of swine flu, strangely, come with a dose of chicken pox,
This is the kind of query that medical trials can never answer because you could never set up a powerful enough designed trial to examine the question with anything even approaching likely ethics approval.
well, you could look at primary healthcare records maybe. Depending on the records (maybe at practice level if a GP is interested in research as well). Not an experiment as such, but enough to see if it quacks if the sample set is large enough. Might get ethics approval depending on how it’s run, big project though.
If Mac, that is an answer to my little query above, your way off the mark of what i need to know, which is simply the odd example of a swine flu or ten that came with a dose of chicken pox as well,
Of course if that rings anyone’s bell, and the swine + chicken pox became + shingles later in the piece, like a year+ later that would create much mirth and hilarity in the factory here…
well, the direct answer would be “fuck if I know, but the closest you’d probably get is a lit search for a study similar to what I previously mentioned”. And anecdata is no data.
Mac, and i am hardly any sort of Doctor, just seeing if there is any tie in of the 3, swine,chicken-pox,shingles,(the shingles should come with a recurrence of swine),
And, this all, just to get confusing might relate to both H1N1, and, H3N2,
Believe me nobody has conducted any study around the 3, mention that the 3 might be linked to a ‘professional’ and they are likely to start rummaging in the bottom draw for the committal papers…
Among healthy adults, influenza vaccine can prevent 70% to 90% of influenza-specific illness. Among the elderly, the vaccine reduces severe illnesses and complications by up to 60%, and deaths by 80%.
Can’t be bothered engaging with you anymore……… you are a fucking dunce.
derrrh…well i guess it is important that you believe in what you do….so good on you! ….pleased you are not my doctor though…smile
btw…asked the kids if they wanted the meningitis vaccine (x3)at school and after much discussion of the pros and cons and an intensive indoctrination about why they should have it at school ……they said “No bloody way!”
…their fate is in their hands…but at least they know not to share drinks and be careful about others saliva …and watch out for the signs of meningitis
Among healthy adults, influenza vaccine can prevent 70% to 90% of influenza-specific illness. Among the elderly, the vaccine reduces severe illnesses and complications by up to 60%, and deaths by 80%.
Sorry, but that’s not what the meta-analysis from the Cochrane collaboration concluded.
+1000…CV you really do make a lot of sense!…way more sense than northshoredoc or McFlock!….You should be a doctor…actually you are one, being a chiropractor
I have a lot of time for Chinese medicine….based on energy lines …i dislocated my elbow once and it was not diagnosed by the doctors using hospital xrays…they just stuffed me full of steroids for the pain and swelling…it was only a Chinese Medical Practitioner who diagnosed the problem several years later and moved the bone back into place using acupuncture using
yes I think it did too ….and yup it was bad….but i just lay in bed for a few days and drank lots of water….the swiney thing left me and i had a new lease of life
…seems like the vaccine is not as safe or as effective as northshoredoc makes out
( who really is the dunce here?)
…in fact there are quite a few risks…i actually think that doctors and governments beholden ( financially?…nice wee golden handshakes?) to multi million dollar drug companies should be held accountable for vaccine mishaps , especially if parents are pressurised and guilt tripped into vaccinating their children against their will …..and it is shown that children were adversely affected
“I find it strange that you say you don’t regret getting Measles, mumps and chickenpox”
……nuh …….because I am not a wussy..and no one at the time thought it was a big deal getting measles , mumps and chickenpox( soon you will be wanting to immunise people for the common cold)
…….my parents and grandparents and great grandparents and great great grandparents were not immunised for measles , mumps and chickenpox……they survived ok and in good health through to their 70 s( the smoker), 80s( another smoker ) and 90s( a nonsmoker)
…sure measles mumps and chickenpox are unpleasant at the time …and sure i would regret it if i had serious complications….but i would also regret it even more if i or my children had serious complications from vaccines forced on us by silly doctors who want their patients to be co-dependent and compliant …rather than collegial and responsible for their own health decisions
…yup i remember sharing a double bed with my sister who also had chicken pox ….”kick me , punch me , i dont care”….still remember the ditty….it forged an unbreakable link between us….still remember the horrible little brat i shared chickenpox with….and we still laugh
….also remember measles and my temperature going sky high and my Mother cooling me down with cold water bottles….and mumps , the horrible monster swollen one side of the face
@ McFlock…you are a sensitive wee sausage, who would have thought
….and it was my sister kicking and pinching me while she had chickenpox and we shared a bed because she couldnt stand me or the chickenpox …not my parents, just in case you got that wrong…..our parents were very solicitous when we were ill
@ McFlock…i reckon you are more like Colin Craig ….because you are so bloody sure that yu are right and you know what is best for everyone’s kids ! ….Colin would not like me at all
“who is to say that if you dont get a natural immunity to one virus eg measles ,either by contracting it or getting immunity via your parents…”
I say it because there is zero evidence for such an immunity pass on. Fuck this is the problem with the anti vaccine brigade. They are anti science and anti reason. Which I guess extends to supporting policies like NZ Power.
Whew,.. for a moment there I actually found myself agreeing with something that you’d typed. But then you reawakened my sense of contempt with your spurious “NZ Power” reference.
I am strongly in favour of; vaccines (Basupial is fully up to date on his jabs), science, reason, and the Green/ Labour proposed electricity purchasing arrangement that will be instituted when they form the next government of Aotearoa.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1905885/
“In case reports or case series, more than 200 patients were suspected to have been seriously harmed. The most common serious adverse effects were due to vertebral artery dissections. The two prospective reports suggested that relatively mild adverse effects occur in 30% to 61% of all patients. The case-control studies suggested a causal relationship between spinal manipulation and the adverse effect. The survey data indicated that even serious adverse effects are rarely reported in the medical literature
I will stick to vaccination, which, as decades of evidence shows, has massive benefits and very few adverse effects. thanks.
And refusing to vaccinate for the normal childhood diseases is not only child abuse, but is getting a free ride on the backs of vaccinated children and stops us for eradicating that disease altogether. Eradication would mean that we would not even have to subject children to the slight risk of continued vaccination against that disease. As we have done with small pox and polio.
Frankly it wasn’t like that when I was young and we used to catch all this stuff. I’d have noticed if 10% of the school was in hospital not the 0% of reality. Are the vaccines making the disease harsher?
“I’d have noticed if 10% of the school was in hospital not the 0% of reality”
Maybe they hospitalise more these days. I know that when I had measles in the ’60s I spent a week very,very ill. I had the local GP making home visits everyday. I’m quite sure that these days I would have been hospitalised instead of having the GP visits.
…we are all being indoctrinated that we need vaccines for everything….it is after-all a multi-billion dollar, multi-national business
you know and i know how bad measles was when we were kids…but they would like to tell us it was a hell of a lot worse than what we remember…and that many of our school mates succumbed dreadfully ….well sorry they didnt!….and the jury is still out on the long term effects of vaccines ….and it seems as if the side effects are not even properly catelogued!
…and i would like to know how much these pro-vaccine zealot doctors get for every kid they jab ( just to see how much they really do love our babies and kiddies)
Vaccination works, as much as climate change deniers are morons, so are vaccination deniers.
So you rate all vaccinations as equal in value and importance? You dismiss all proven cases of vaccination toxicity and ineffectiveness as just too bad?
Would you even spend on pharma corporates millions in tax payers money to vaccinate people who are already immune to a disease, in order to prove your faith in vaccinations?
Having no idea if a patient is immune before the vaccination, how would you know that the vaccination is even indicated? And after receiving the vaccination how would you know if they are immune afterwards i.e. if the drug accomplished any useful change in immune function at all?
And the question remains – in an instance like the MeNZ B vaccination – why would you spend millions of tax payer dollars in order to give the drug to many tens of thousands of youths who were already immune to the disease (due to previous pathogenic exposure, being asymptomatic carriers etc)?
“Having no idea if a patient is immune before the vaccination, how would you know that the vaccination is even indicated?”
Most but not all immunisation is undertaken from a young age prior to exposure so as to prevent serious consequences if one is exposed and decrease the incidence of the infectious agent in circulation.
“And after receiving the vaccination how would you know if they are immune afterwards i.e. if the drug accomplished any useful change in immune function at all?”
All products are registered by Medsafe dependant upon demonstrating acceptable immunogenicity. (i.e clinical trials showing that they work must be produced before they are registered and available).
“And the question remains – in an instance like the MeNZ B vaccination – why would you spend millions of tax payer dollars in order to give the drug to many tens of thousands of youths who were already immune to the disease (due to previous pathogenic exposure, being asymptomatic carriers etc)?”
The MoH has produced this useful information sheet which covers their reasoning.
Not sure what you’re getting at Marty but General practices get paid by the MoH for delivering vaccinations as per the NZ schedule and for influenza vaccinations during the influenza vaccination season.
Not sure whether you are pretending to care about child health now Shitlands, or whether your main concern is for pharma corp profits. I admit that it could be both simultaneously.
“Not sure whether you are pretending to care about child health ”
It is my job to care about child health! Unlike you I don’t throw away idiotic point scoring foul mouthed remarks about immunisation. Your views on immunisation suddenly makes it all clear. I can see how your mind works.
No I dismiss nothing. I view scientific research and peer reviewed evidence as the best guideline for medical prevention and intervention. What I don’t buy is that if 1 in 2000 has a mild adverse reaction and 1 in 100,000 will have a serious reaction, that that justifies the hysteria it seems to invoke in some. Perhaps ask African poverty stricken mothers who walk miles to get their children vaccinated whether it’s worthwhile. I don’t think the life of a child should be sacrificed as you seem to, to prevent corporate involvement. It’s not a faith it is scientific fact that vaccination saves children’s lives, ignorance doesn’t change that. Faith is believing in homeopathy or crystals, reiki, or other quackery practised by frauds who prey on easily manipulated people. I’ve seen the result of a child getting a disease they should have been vaccinated against, and it’s horrific.
Use the fear tactic if you like to get people on side, its a usual approach.
BTW I have no opinion on child health and poverty issues in Africa, or how they might somehow relate to first world NZ.
Faith is believing in homeopathy or crystals, reiki, or other quackery practised by frauds who prey on easily manipulated people.
You do know that traditional healing arts were around long before conventional allopathic medicine was bleeding patients to death and prescribing mercury and arsenic as the ‘state of the art’, and will probably be around long after conventional allopathic medicine has long gone?
In fact, the term “quackery” was historically applied to conventional western medicine in its early and very harmful days.
“You do know that traditional healing arts were around long before conventional allopathic medicine was bleeding patients to death and prescribing mercury and arsenic as the ‘state of the art’, and will probably be around long after conventional allopathic medicine has long gone?”
And how well did they work in preventing the infectious diseases and their sequelae that we’ve been discussing above ? Better or worse than immunisation when and where available ?
Well, what I know is that in your list, none is as good as clean running water, flushing toilets, and having sufficient calories and protein in the diet, thanks.
Clean running water, flushing toilets, and having sufficient calories and protein in the diet are all very important for public health, however, MMR and Hep B vaccination will protect you against their respective targets far better than any of those things you list if you come into direct contact with the respective diseases.
Where the fear tactic ? Sadly, this is much like your attitude to most things. You’re more concerned about where the treatment comes from, not the treatment itself. You do the children of New Zealand a grave injustice for promoting such unscientific twaddle. It’s dangerous for people like you to promote the life endangering crap that you do.
The Africa example was to perhaps show that if you don’t value insuring children’s lives, others who are much less fortunate do. I don’t know if you’re a parent, I am and you don’t strike me as a stupid man, so I would be astounded if you didn’t vaccinate your children when it’s freely available and prevents the suffering of a child.
If any vaccination has a less than 1 in 10,000 chance of providing a direct benefit to a child, parents should be clearly informed so that they can make a treatment choice appropriate for their family.
Of course that is unless you think that their treatment choice should be made by you, for them, instead.
The actual low level of individual benefit is only a tiny part of the issue.
A belief that parents need to be informed if a vaccination has a less than 1:10,000 chance of producing direct individual benefit is far more central.
Such a belief requires an appreciation of the necessity for informed consent during the course of medical treatment. It recognises that information such as the likelihood of a drug providing any clinical benefit is a direct and important input into that informed consent process.
The other point about your 1 in 10k of direct personal benefit line is that it refers to the current risk in a highly-vaccinated environment.
You’d need to tweak it for the lower vaccine uptake if it’s phrased that way, otherwise you’re misleading the parents as the actual risk would be significantly higher. E.g. in the swansea area, 644 cases occurred in the 2013 outbreak in a population of 300k.
That’s 1 in 500, assuming a zero percent vaccination rate. You’re out by at least a factor of 20. If the vaccination rate was 70%, you’re up to 3% direct personal benefit. So much for “informed” by 1 in 10,000.
Blue – Does your definition of quakery include an alternative modality like Traditional Chinese Medicine? You have fallen on anecdote so I will as well. I was cured from a debilitating condition by TCM. And it can’t be due to a high quality bedside manner, which is often used to explain alternative medicine success, because I could hardly understand a word the two practitioners were saying. The sad thing is though the cost of the herbs is prohibitive for many people.
No because there are many peer reviewed papers that support TCM as a method of relieving minor symptomatic illness. It’s efficacy is lower from what I’ve read. There are few that support is as a lone treatment however. Vaccination using TCM I’m not familiar with.
I believe the concept of vaccination is part of TCM, around curing like with like, but not the western model of injecting into the bloodstream.
Should add I tried conventional medicine before TCM.
I’m a sceptic about all healing claims, conventional and alternative.
Anyone who still believes in the inherent superiority of the evidence based pharmaceutical paradigm should read Ben Goldacre’s book Bad Pharma. And the author is not a friend of alternative medicine.
Anti-inflammatory drug Vioxx was evidence based in its day – and that was only 10 years ago – and it killed thousands. Lucky Pharmac never funded that or its use here would have been much more widespread and thus far greater harm.
There is a role for instinct and anecdote in healthcare. Following the evidence based fashions of the day can be fatal.
“Anyone who still believes in the inherent superiority of the evidence based pharmaceutical paradigm should read Ben Goldacre’s book Bad Pharma.”
Absolutely.
Alongside his previous book “Bad Medicine”.
Vioxx is an interesting case – it was compared against other similar anti-inflammatory drugs, not against no anti-inflammatories, and the risk profile was not that different to the other anti-inflammatories. Turns out that no-one knew the other anti-inflammatories have heart risks as well …
…how about parents who have time to think…and discuss and research…and also live in good conditions for their children.
….and yes if you live in an overcrowded poverty stricken part of town ….where hygene is problematic, there are damp conditions, poor food , polluted water, children unable to get out and run free in the fresh air and sunshine …you would be wise to get your children immunised
In doesn’t matter where you live in town if you are not vaccinated for Measles and haven’t yet had it you have an extremely high chance of developing the disease when you come into contact with an infectious carrier.
It is a very very nasty infectious disease with serious morbidity and mortality associated with it.
The only persons who have a valid reason not to be vaccinated are those who are pregnant (although they should have been vaccinated as children) and those with a record/strong suspicion of severe allergy and those who have an immunosuppressive condition.
Anyone else who chooses not to immunise their children puts both their children and others at risk and is very foolish.
yes because we can afford the time to research…and the time to look after our children when they are ill ….and we know our children are generally healthy because they live in good conditions
“anti-immunisation types” only want choice for themselves and everyone else…if i had a sick child in damp cold house , was under stress and ill myself ..knew I could not look after the child well ……i would probably choose immunisation for the child…but this is no reason to blanketly force immunisation on everyone else
….the health industry is littered with mistakes and drugs which have been worse than the complaint ( a previous doctor told me so)…so in the end it is the right of every parent to decide and as their children get older let them decide ….a bit like religion
I’ve mentioned it on a previous comment. No citation needed I would have thought when one has a 2 o3 degree separation from those being ‘dosed’!
Be it Northland, be it Christchurch, be it Paraparaumu.
Yes, ‘P’ addicts are being put on the methadone programme – whereupon quite a few ‘divert’ their methadone and go and score. (All in the name of so-called ‘harm reduction’).
As is usually the case tho’ – the few fuck it up for the many.
Now I’m aware of many on here averse to PU’s sanctimonium and preaching, but the guy is actually correct – ESPECIALLY as to the madness that’s now become the norm in the way we treat addicts.
We’re losing a generation – but that’s cool …. we’ll just make them part of the ‘unpeople’ and move on. After all, there are far more respectable addictions than being a crack head junkie – like maybe being a piss-head or a Sky City attendee.
When reading about the confirmation of the royal visit, – vented by putting pen to paper and writing to the Queen and the Duke & Duchess about the timing of their visit in relation to the election.
Received prompt replies from Buckingham Palace, and whoever writes for the Duke & Duchess.
Today, received a letter from the Executive Council Chambers – advising that “close proximity” to an election is taken to mean the pre-election period of approximately three months before polling day.
Also, advised that that “members of the Royal Family have visited New Zealand in an election year on 14 occasions since 1954, including when The Queen visited in February 2002. The election that year was in July.”
Despite the urge, I will not reply that circumspection is not a characteristic of our current PM. With our current media and Prime Minister, I am expecting a lot of cringeworthy reports during the visit.
Molly, pity they didn’t list which years these royal jaunts down under occurred, we could then have a look to see which Party was in power and how low they were in the public’s estimation…
I’m surmising too that Helen Clark didn’t have much choice in whether or not to “invite” the Queen in 2002 – as it was her 50th Jubilee and she was doing her commonwealth tour that year.
And visit Hansard Feb 13th 2002 for an understanding of how little she intended to use it for political advantage.
Don’t know. But really didn’t expect much more than the usual, “Thanks for your letter, your concerns have been noted” – which was the case from the UK, within two weeks.
Sent the letters off with no expectation of change. Which was met. But the act of writing was therapeutic for me, and worked marginally.
national has set up an intimidatory regime.
the hepatitis foundation is conducting unauthorised longitudinal studies and refusing access unless personal data is supplied.
what next.
Despite the frequent condemnation of the role of poorly contained cattle farm shit in fouling our rivers, there is another environmental risk you really see addressed – fire:
”One of the big problems was cow manure – we thought we had the fire out and then dry cow manure would set alight and roll. It’s quite flammable when it’s dry and a real bugger to get out,” [Omakau Deputy Chief Fire Officer Lloyd Harris] said.
John key made the following statement today about supermarkets and suppliers….
“‘‘Everyone accepts that when it comes to small suppliers and dominant supermarkets, there’s a power imbalance, and I suspect when the inquiry takes place there will be suppliers that say that they feel the pressure of that power imbalance. Whether that actually marries up to what Mr Jones is saying is quite a different issue.’’…
“Key told reporters said that New Zealand food producers reported to him that the supermarkets drove ‘‘hard bargains’’ but he believed that ‘‘by and large’’ this benefited consumers through lower prices, and nothing untoward had been drawn to his attention. ”
Now, think about individual employment contracts John.
Apparently Martin Crowe was commenting on McCullum’s current innings in Wellington. The reporter appears to believe that Martin said there is an abundance of drunken w#nkers at the Basin.
“They almost felt a bit sad that they took my wicket and so I’m sure that the Indian team, while they won’t be dishing up full tossers, I think deep down they’ll be wanting him to get there.”
(and while we’re at it “that’s probably a-whole-nother story” –
anyone notice how that one is creeping into the journalists’ lexicon
along with “th’ smorning”?
He’s just handing this stuff to Key on a plate, and Key is more than happy to take advantage of it. And he does so with such joy that the media can’t help but cover it.
Does Cunliffe have a Chief of Staff and a Press Secretary? You know, like a real leader of a major political party would?
Living in a 10 million dollar Parnell pad should have been a WEAKNESS for Key, but Cunliffe’s dumbshit display has immunised him against criticism. Key now gets to say positive things like “I’m proud of where I live” YAY ASPIRATIONAL LEADER and ask why Cunliffe is trying to hide his residential address from his constituents in New Lynn.
It wasn’t hidden. Where he lives has been known for as long as I’ve been aware of David Cunliffe. It has always been in the public domain where and what the property is. It is listed in the parliamentary interests.
Basically Paddy Gower is a simpering moron whenever he thinks that there is a story and he only cares how it sounds rather than actual facts. It appears that you have the same issues.
Of course it’s not hidden, if it were the media wouldn’t have been able to piss itself laughing with stories about how poor David Cunliffe was forced to buy a 2.5 million dollar home in Auckland’s most expensive suburb because he wanted to shorten his inner-city corporate-lawyer wife’s commute to work, whatta guy, boy that’s some traditional Labour shit right there.
Any time Cunliffe – or Labour at large – brings up Key’s Parnell mansion now it’s an easy boundary for Key. He’ll just whack it every time and the media will cover it, because Labour can’t communicate for shit and it’s entertaining to watch Key smack these easy balls.
Just take the video linked above; what genius decided it would be a good idea for Cunliffe to criticise Key’s affluent lifestyle while standing in front of a sign saying “Fitzroy Yachts”? Are custom-built luxury superyachts a big thing for Labour voters this year? Did no-one think to say “Hey David Cunliffe, while you’re on the back foot defending your waterfront multimilliondollar house in the most expensive suburb on the edge of Auckland Harbour, maybe yachts isn’t a word you want displayed right behind you?”
This is the sociopathy of it. It comes down to a game of relative wealth and score keeping. If you have $10M net worth you feel inadequate next to the guy with $100M net worth. Who feels inadequate next to the guy with $1B net worth. And then you have all these billionaires jostling around for each other for pole position, like fighting Titans not caring (or even noticing) the devastation they leave in their wake.
Who needs morality and values and more? An 8 figure net worth is all the justification these people ever need to show that they are superior humans and morally in the right.
With this dumbshit tactic Cunliffe has enabled Key to respond, grinning from ear to ear, with things like
“I live in Parnell and I’m proud of it. That member lives in Herne Bay, he just doesn’t want his supporters to know he does!”
Key comes out of this looking great, Cunliffe comes out of it looking like the two-faced “say one thing, do another” doubletalker he’s often labelled. There was no way this retarded “oh he’s a millionaire with a fancy house” schtick from Cunliffe was ever going to work.
Which brings me back to the bigger point: why was there nobody at Cunliffe’s elbow to tell him that? Why is he time after time walking straight into these fucking potholes? Why is Labour so chronically bad at this stuff?
my understanding is that cunnliffes’ wife is an environmental-lawyer..
..(but don’t let that spoil yr ‘story’..eh..?..)
We offer superior service through the combination of excellent legal analysis, strong commercial and corporate governance experience, and a commitment to providing personalised service.
Our work encompasses energy, industrial, commercial, residential, retail, forestry, transport, aquaculture, mining, oil and gas and infrastructure projects.
We understand the pressures of regulatory and policy change and work with both government and corporate clients dealing with such change.
You’re right, that doesn’t sound corporate AT ALL.
My understanding is Cunny’s wife has worked for that nasty Fonterra and Mining companies. You have been listening to his spin and lies about why he has a multi million dollar mansion in the most expensive suburb in Auckland.
Lawyers work for and advise clients. That is their job. They frequently advise clients why they should not do something or why they should change what they are doing to conform with the law.
Environmental lawyers like the wife of David Cunliffe in particular are usually employed to help companies conform to laws like the RMA and other environmental laws. They tend to be paid well for this role because it is skilled task and takes a pile of experience to get good at.
An ex was an environmental lawyer so I have seen it close at hand (although not for several decades).
Basically you’re a stupid and rather ignorant little creep who clearly is too lazy for most tasks, including finding out who you are talking about.
Cool it SHG (definitely not Colonial Viper.) You don’t have to get so excited about drawing our attention to faults in Cunliffe’s presentation because you are concerned that the government jabberwockies will notice. You have done the work for them!So lay off will you. Are you right wing, or just naive Labour?
“Oh well, nothing better to do than go and do some work on my $2.5 million “do up”
That might explain why Cunny thinks people who earn $149k need welfare
At Public Address Mark Harris has written a very compelling rebuttal of the Smellie “defence” of the ongoing TTP. Read it and be very very afraid. For this bit at the end is indicative, “Other Parliaments will indeed be able to scrutinise the detail – ours will not. For Smellie not to understand this vital point is, quite simply, astounding.”
TPP: Error Correction
by Mark Harris
On Friday, Stuff published an opinion piece about the Trans Pacific Partnership by Pattrick Smellie headed Ten things TPP critics do not want you to grasp. I was appalled by it it and felt it warranted a rebuttal. This is that rebuttal.
1.The secrecy surrounding TPP negotiations is typical of any such exercise.
While bilateral trade agreements are generally held quietly between the negotiating teams, multi-lateral agreements that will impact the ……
2c says she doesn’t give a shit about how she was treated in the interview.
But now she gets to SAY she did, and National is nicely immunised against criticism that it gets biased coverage from TVNZ. Hell, it’s not like there was a National candidate interviewing Labour politicians and organising National fundraisers at TVNZ via the TVNZ email network.
Now in the name of impartiality TVNZ will be bending over backwards to make sure that Labour doesn’t get overly favourable coverage.
National gets to point to this fuckup as another reason why having a State-funded broadcaster is untenable, and chalks up another point in favour of privatisation.
So basically this whole Taurima affair is a win-win for National.
”National gets to point to this fuckup as another reason why having a State-funded broadcaster is untenable, and chalks up another point in favour of privatisation.”
The ‘state-funded broadcaster’ returned a dividend of $11.3 million in the last financial year, off an after-tax profit of $14.2 million.
Profitability has little to do with whether they sell anyway, just look at the powercos. If they did, it would probably be to lessen the chance of a future government having access to infrastructure to create a proper public broadcaster.
Not much pressure from private sector to sell as Sky seems pretty happy with the current configuration.
In terms of private interests lobbying for the asset to be sold, which in the NZ TV industry means Sky.
Sky has done well out of TVNZ, and is not likely to agitate for major change. Just look at the Heartland TV deal. Those programmes were made when TVNZ was a public broadcaster, and now they’re behind a paywall.
I admire her for a lot things, I don’t agree with her on a lot of things as well. She knew how to play the media, use others to do her dirty work, control a caucus etc etc she was (is) a very good politician
You’re assuming that all the traits you list are necessary and sufficient to be a “good politician”.
John Key is able at most of those tasks, but I think he rests largely on the support of a close team, and he’s certainly not “good” in the ethical sense of the word.
If anyone replies to one of my comments and I don’t respond, it is because I haven’t time to scan the comments queue and don’t want my emails stuffed with non-personal ones. I check my archives, and if you want a reply put grey or I think gw and that will show up and I’ll get back to you. This is just so you don’t think I’m not interested in what most of you have to say, because I am. But have to limit my time on the blog to get other things done.
All this under a party leader who doesn’t even have a Chief of Staff at the moment – the Leader’s office has had what – 5 chiefs of staff in the space of 14 months?
Nobody wants to be IN that seat when the music stops.
Actually the intensity of Trevor Mallads questioning of Peter Dunne had Peter nearly in tears I thought. Broken voice/stumbling. And he still twists and turns to avoid having to give the House an answer to the question, “Will he say to the House that No he did not leak the report.”
And most disturbing was Judith Collins wearing a jacket which was white on one side and black on the other. Its how she sees things I suppose. Either black or white.
Oh, and what gives with asteroids, they don’t need to be on collision with Earth, they can also hit Earth if they fly to close to the Moon in a slingshot. We should worry about the Moon getting hit too.
Okay, given the Japanese Earthquake, caused a Tsunami that took out a half dozen nuclear power plants. Where the boffins thought they’d built the sea defenses high enough. How about then, and Asteroid, near miss of Earth, and on approach nowhere near the Moon, is slung around the Earth, into the gravity well of the Moon and then back around on a collision with Earth. Splash down in the pacific and a massive Tsunami hits an Auckland beach, where Slater, Key and Craig are having a picnic. What could be the chances?
Key said, “I have no more comment on this matter. Now I have some basking to do.”
As Key turned to walk from the podium, he caught an errant fly in mid-air with his tongue before scurrying up the wall and into an air vent.
Well, when writer/musician/jokester Shane Warbrooke (really?) is found face-down in a ditch, killed by a kind of venom heretofore unknown to mankind, it will be far too late to worry then…
BTW, John Key is a lassez-faire capitalist and climate change skeptic, only pulled leftward in recent years on that second point by the fact that his nation has pulled in that direction in recent years [WTF?!]
I guess compared to teabaggers, gun nuts, and the corporate crony infested White House you might say that. But we can reasonably infer that our ex-Merrill-Lynch bankster PM made his $50 million by attacking the NZ dollar in the late 80s, causing huge damage to the economy. He’s following the neocon playbook and making it much easier for his corporate pals and giant banks to extract as much wealth as possible from the 99% of suckers. Goofy antics like this lizard joke are the mask of the smiling assassin.
Old lefties and old conservatives alike don’t like cannabis in my experience. As much as it should be decriminalised there is much work to do on the model used. Unfettered unregulated freedom of use would not run for any party I would imagine. I’d like to see it regulated similar to alcohol, R18, licenced premises (cafés), and obviously taxed appropriately. You’d have to argue the zealotry of ignorance with regard to cannabis though. In my view alcohol does far more harm than cannabis ever has or ever will.
Greenwald in jaw-dropping BBC interview
by JONATHAN COOK, Nazareth, 29 November 2013
Glenn Greenwald on sharp form, as ever, and the BBC interviewer, on this occasion Stephen Sackur, on woeful form, as ever.
The last five-minute exchange, starting at about 19.20 mins, when Sackur ends up defending Britain’s security services against Greenwald’s charge that they lied during the Iraq war, is simply jaw-dropping in its asinine, dangerous complacency.
How do these BBC mouthpieces have the nerve to call themselves journalists?
The most embarrassing news interview ever
by JONATHAN COOK in Nazareth, 4 October 2013
This must be the most cringe-inducing interview by a senior journalist I’ve ever seen.
It’s conducted by Kirsty Wark, one of the BBC’s top presenters, and takes places on Newsnight, the BBC’s flagship nightly current affairs programme.
It truly makes me more ashamed of the “profession” of journalism than I already was – and I didn’t think that was possible.
Throughout the interview, Wark abandons even the pretence of doing what journalism is supposed to be about: interrogating the centres of power and holding them to account. Instead Wark mimics adversarial journalism by interrogating the US journalist Glenn Greenwald about his role in the NSA leaks, as though she’s a novice MI5 recruit. To do this she has to parrot British government misinformation and fire at him questions so childish even she seems to realise half way through them how embarrassing they are.
This is actually how most Newsnight interviews run: creating the theatre of conflict between journalist and interviewee that conceals the real issues rather than revealing them. If one wanted to produce news that looked honest while actually being deeply dishonest this is exactly how one would do it.
The reason that the charade is exposed in this case is because the interviewee, Greenwald, is another journalist, and a far better one than Wark. So every time she relays an MI5 talking point, he can point out that she’s not doing the work of a journalist, even by the official definition she is supposed to believe in.
“It found that the median hourly earnings for New Zealanders increased from $18.70 in 2008 to $21.58 last year, yet they worked slightly fewer hours – 35.7 last year down from 36.5 in 2008.”
50% of kiwis on $21.58 or less
and 50% working less than 36 hours per work
Yup it’s a rockstar economy alright…
One person is the getting the star’s wage, a few others get the roadies wage and the majority have to pay to watch the star…god how they are paying
That is true if you include the unemployed, 15year old school children, and other groups that distort the figures. The average wage is really $27.55 per hour and that is a good wage
The Average Wage is a totally fictional figure, use your fucken nut for once in your miserable life wont you,
The earnings of those on the rising scale of earning over that $27.55 simply drags up the figure in the contest of meaningless mumbo jumbo statistics,
The only logical means of establishing a proper picture of the earnings of the New Zealand workforce is to have a chart divided into five thousand dollar income bands showing how many workers are in each wage band…
“The more useful stat for me is what is the average hourly income of someone in employment. Because it is people in employment who fund the rest of society.
The average or mean is different from the median, but I use it here as Stats NZ only provide the mean in their quarterly stats.”
A bit disingenuous of David Farrar.
First, he doesn’t help his readers to understand the importance of the difference between median and average. Second, and far more significantly, however, he claims that he finds the quarterly stats ‘more useful’ for him. Why?
Interestingly, Farrar wrote that blog in September, 2013.
For some reason he nevertheless failed to rely on the median weekly income from salaries and wages provided in the June quarter 2013 New Zealand Income Survey.
If he had realised that such a source existed – didn’t someone say he once was a researcher? – he could have cited, from the ‘Key Facts’, a very recent median weekly income figure and done a quick bit of arithmetic to arrive at an hourly median rate from wages and salaries. Here’s what the NZIS for the June quarter 2013 had to say:
“Median weekly income from wages and salaries (for those receiving
income from this source) was $844, up $38 (4.8 percent).”
If Farrar’s preferred 40 hour week were divided into 844 he ends up with a median hourly income of $21.10. Alternatively, scaling up the $844 per week to an annual income gives us a figure of $43, 888.
Alternatively, if he had dug just a wee bit further into the NZIS June Quarter 2013 pdf he could have seen the median hourly income directly reported:
“Median hourly earnings for those receiving wage and salary income increased by 72 cents (3.5 percent) between the June 2012 and June 2013 quarters, to $21.58.”
“Unadjusted, average ordinary-time hourly earnings rose 1.6 percent, to reach $27.98.”
[Importantly, the Quarterly Employment Survey surveys businesses, rather than households and people – as the NZIS does.]
Curiously, he had no links in his post to his source for his average hourly figure (just saying it was from NZ Stats) – I presume he calculated, probably correctly, that very few of his readers would bother to check or inform themselves about the various statistics collected on income from employment.
I think I understand why Farrar found the average hourly stat “more useful” for him.
Sadly, Naki Man, Farrar is not the Messiah – he’s just a naughty boy.
Seems to be catching, i had a moan about RadioNZ National program having taken up a very bad habit of allowing National Government Ministers to kill the story of the day by simply refusing that stations invitation for the relevant Minister to appear,
Last nights Campbell Live has taken to using the same ‘trick’ in what looks like a deliberate act of aiding and abetting this National Government to kill off hot news of the day thus allowing them to control the political discourse,
Invited onto Campbell Live last night was the Green Parties Russell Norman and National’s Simon Bridges so a debate over the Green Party proposed Solar Energy scheme could take place,
Campbell pipes up that Bridges had refused the invitation, and, i am pretty fucken sure Dr Norman didn’t, but, as Bridges wouldn’t front Campbell killed the story,
What is this shit,really??? is the deliberate killing of stories by this means the broadcasters interpretation of providing balance and fairness under the auspices of the Broadcasting Act, or, is the National Government colluding with the management of the broadcasters to use such a means of killing the news of the day that might show them in a bad light…
Mr Bridges had ridiculed the Green Solar Panel Plan. That was why John Campbell invited Bridges and Norman to debate the finances of the plan. Campbell felt that Norman had explained the finances pretty well but when Bridges refused to front there was no debate. Bridges does not know how to build bridges.
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This post by Nicolas Reid was originally published on Linked in. It is republished here with permission. Gondolas are often in the news, with manufacturers of ropeway systems proposing them as a modern option for mass transit systems in New Zealand. However, like every next big thing in transport, it’s hard ...
This is a re-post from The Climate BrinkBoth 2023 and 2024 were exceptionally warm years, at just below and above 1.5C relative to preindustrial in the WMO composite of surface temperature records, respectively. While we are still working to assess the full set of drivers of this warmth, it is clear that ...
Hi,I woke up feeling nervous this morning, realising that this weekend Flightless Bird is going to do it’s first ever live show. We’re heading to a sold out (!) show in Seattle to test the format out in front of an audience. If it works, we’ll do more. I want ...
From the United-For-Now States of America comes the thrilling news that a New Zealander may be at the very heart of the current coup. Punching above our weight on the world stage once more! Wait, you may be asking, what New Zealander? I speak of Peter Thiel, made street legal ...
Even Stevens: Over the 33 years between 1990 and 2023 (and allowing for the aberrant 2020 result) the average level of support enjoyed by the Left and Right blocs, at roughly 44.5 percent each, turns out to be, as near as dammit, identical.WORLDWIDE, THE PARTIES of the Left are presented ...
Back in 2023, a "prominent political figure" went on trial for historic sex offences. But we weren't allowed to know who they were or what political party they were "prominent" in, because it might affect the way we voted. At the time, I said that this was untenable; it was ...
I'm going, I'm goingWhere the water tastes like wineI'm going where the water tastes like wineWe can jump in the waterStay drunk all the timeI'm gonna leave this city, got to get awayI'm gonna leave this city, got to get awayAll this fussing and fighting, man, you know I sure ...
Waitangi Day is a time to honour Te Tiriti o Waitangi and stand together for a just and fair Aotearoa. Across the motu, communities are gathering to reflect, kōrero, and take action for a future built on equity and tino rangatiratanga. From dawn ceremonies to whānau-friendly events, there are ...
Subscribe to Mountain Tūī ! Where you too can learn about exciting things from a flying bird! Tweet.Yes - I absolutely suck at marketing. It’s a fact.But first -My question to all readers is:How should I set up the Substack model?It’s been something I’ve been meaning to ask since November ...
Here’s the key news, commentary, reports and debate around Aotearoa’s political economy on politics and in the week to Feb 3:PM Christopher Luxon began 2025’s first day of Parliament last Tuesday by carrying on where left off in 2024, letting National’s junior coalition partner set the political agenda and dragging ...
The PSA have released a survey of 4000 public service workers showing that budget cuts are taking a toll on the wellbeing of public servants and risking the delivery of essential services to New Zealanders. Economists predict that figures released this week will show continued increases in unemployment, potentially reaching ...
The Prime Minister’s speech 10 days or so ago kicked off a flurry of commentary. No one much anywhere near the mainstream (ie excluding Greens supporters) questioned the rhetoric. New Zealand has done woefully poorly on productivity for a long time and we really need better outcomes, and the sorts ...
President Trump on the day he announced tariffs against Mexico, Canada and China, unleashing a shock to supply chains globally that is expected to slow economic growth and increase inflation for most large economies. Photo: Getty ImagesLong stories short, the top six things in our political economy around housing, climate ...
Photo by Towfiqu barbhuiya on UnsplashHere’s what we’re watching in the week to February 9 and beyond in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty:Monday, February 3Politics: New Zealand Government cabinet meeting usually held early afternoon with post-cabinet news conference possible at 4 pm, although they have not been ...
Trump being Trump, it won’t come as a shock to find that he regards a strong US currency (bolstered by high tariffs on everything made by foreigners) as a sign of America’s virility, and its ability to kick sand in the face of the world. Reality is a tad more ...
A listing of 24 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, January 26, 2025 thru Sat, February 1, 2025. This week's roundup is again published soleley by category. We are still interested in feedback to hone the categorization, so if ...
What seems to be the common theme in the US, NZ, Argentina and places like Italy under their respective rightwing governments is what I think of as “the politics of cruelty.” Hate-mongering, callous indifference in social policy-making, corporate toadying, political bullying, intimidation and punching down on the most vulnerable with ...
If you are confused, check with the sunCarry a compass to help you alongYour feet are going to be on the groundYour head is there to move you aroundSo, stand in the place where you liveSongwriters: Bill Berry / Michael Mills / Michael Stipe / Peter Buck.Hot in the CityYesterday, ...
Shane Jones announced today he would be contracting out his thinking to a smarter younger person.Reclining on his chaise longue with a mouth full of oysters and Kina he told reporters:Clearly I have become a has-been, a palimpsest, an epigone, a bloviating fossil. I find myself saying such things as: ...
Warning: This post contains references to sexual assaultOn Saturday, I spent far too long editing a video on Tim Jago, the ACT Party President and criminal, who has given up his fight for name suppression after 2 years. He voluntarily gave up just in time for what will be a ...
New Zealand First has today introduced a Member’s Bill which would restore decision-making power to local communities regarding the fluoridation of drinking water. The ‘Fluoridation (Referendum) Legislation Bill’ seeks to repeal the Health (Fluoridation of Drinking Water) Amendment Act 2021 that granted centralised authority to the Direct General of Health ...
New Zealand First has introduced a Member’s Bill aimed at preventing banks from refusing their services to businesses because of the current “Environmental, Social, and Governance (ESG) Framework”. “This Bill ensures fairness and prevents ESG standards from perpetuating woke ideology in the banking sector being driven by unelected, globalist, climate ...
Erica Stanford has reached peak shortsightedness if today’s announcement is anything to go by, picking apart immigration settings piece by piece to the detriment of the New Zealand economy. ...
Our originating document, theTreaty of Waitangi, was signed on February 6, 1840. An agreement between Māori and the British Crown. Initially inked by Ngā Puhi in Waitangi, further signatures were added as it travelled south. The intention was to establish a colony with the cession of sovereignty to the Crown, ...
Te Whatu Ora Chief Executive Margie Apa leaving her job four months early is another symptom of this government’s failure to deliver healthcare for New Zealanders. ...
The Green Party is calling for the Prime Minister to show leadership and be unequivocal about Aotearoa New Zealand’s opposition to a proposal by the US President to remove Palestinians from Gaza. ...
The latest unemployment figures reveal that job losses are hitting Māori and Pacific people especially hard, with Māori unemployment reaching a staggering 9.7% for the December 2024 quarter and Pasifika unemployment reaching 10.5%. ...
Waitangi 2025: Waitangi Day must be community and not politically driven - Shane Jones Our originating document, theTreaty of Waitangi, was signed on February 6, 1840. An agreement between Māori and the British Crown. Initially inked by Ngā Puhi in Waitangi, further signatures were added as it travelled south. ...
Despite being confronted every day with people in genuine need being stopped from accessing emergency housing – National still won’t commit to building more public houses. ...
The Green Party says the Government is giving up on growing the country’s public housing stock, despite overwhelming evidence that we need more affordable houses to solve the housing crisis. ...
Before any thoughts of the New Year and what lies ahead could even be contemplated, New Zealand reeled with the tragedy of Senior Sergeant Lyn Fleming losing her life. For over 38 years she had faithfully served as a front-line Police officer. Working alongside her was Senior Sergeant Adam Ramsay ...
Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson will return to politics at Waitangi on Monday the 3rd of February where she will hold a stand up with fellow co-leader Chlöe Swarbrick. ...
Te Pāti Māori is appalled by the government's blatant mishandling of the school lunch programme. David Seymour’s ‘cost-saving’ measures have left tamariki across Aotearoa with unidentifiable meals, causing distress and outrage among parents and communities alike. “What’s the difference between providing inedible food, and providing no food at all?” Said ...
The Government is doubling down on outdated and volatile fossil fuels, showing how shortsighted and destructive their policies are for working New Zealanders. ...
Green Party MP Steve Abel this morning joined Coromandel locals in Waihi to condemn new mining plans announced by Shane Jones in the pit of the town’s Australian-owned Gold mine. ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to strengthen its just-announced 2030-2035 Nationally Determined Contribution (NDC) under the Paris Agreement and address its woeful lack of commitment to climate security. ...
Today marks a historic moment for Taranaki iwi with the passing of the Te Pire Whakatupua mō Te Kāhui Tupua/Taranaki Maunga Collective Redress Bill in Parliament. "Today, we stand together as descendants of Taranaki, and our tūpuna, Taranaki Maunga, is now formally acknowledged by the law as a living tūpuna. ...
Labour is relieved to see Children’s Minister Karen Chhour has woken up to reality and reversed her government’s terrible decisions to cut funding from frontline service providers – temporarily. ...
It is the first week of David Seymour’s school lunch programme and already social media reports are circulating of revolting meals, late deliveries, and mislabelled packaging. ...
The Green Party says that with no-cause evictions returning from today, the move to allow landlords to end tenancies without reason plunges renters, and particularly families who rent, into insecurity and stress. ...
The Government’s move to increase speed limits substantially on dozens of stretches of rural and often undivided highways will result in more serious harm. ...
In her first announcement as Economic Growth Minister, Nicola Willis chose to loosen restrictions for digital nomads from other countries, rather than focus on everyday Kiwis. ...
The Government’s commitment to get New Zealand’s roads back on track is delivering strong results, with around 98 per cent of potholes on state highways repaired within 24 hours of identification every month since targets were introduced, Transport Minister Chris Bishop says. “Increasing productivity to help rebuild our economy is ...
The former Cadbury factory will be the site of the Inpatient Building for the new Dunedin Hospital and Health Minister Simeon Brown says actions have been taken to get the cost overruns under control. “Today I am giving the people of Dunedin certainty that we will build the new Dunedin ...
From today, Plunket in Whāngarei will be offering childhood immunisations – the first of up to 27 sites nationwide, Health Minister Simeon Brown says. The investment of $1 million into the pilot, announced in October 2024, was made possible due to the Government’s record $16.68 billion investment in health. It ...
New Zealand’s strong commitment to the rights of disabled people has continued with the response to an important United Nations report, Disability Issues Minister Louise Upston has announced. Of the 63 concluding observations of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (UNCRPD), 47 will be progressed ...
Resources Minister Shane Jones has launched New Zealand’s national Minerals Strategy and Critical Minerals List, documents that lay a strategic and enduring path for the mineral sector, with the aim of doubling exports to $3 billion by 2035. Mr Jones released the documents, which present the Coalition Government’s transformative vision ...
Firstly I want to thank OceanaGold for hosting our event today. Your operation at Waihi is impressive. I want to acknowledge local MP Scott Simpson, local government dignitaries, community stakeholders and all of you who have gathered here today. It’s a privilege to welcome you to the launch of the ...
Racing Minister, Winston Peters has announced the Government is preparing public consultation on GST policy proposals which would make the New Zealand racing industry more competitive. “The racing industry makes an important economic contribution. New Zealand thoroughbreds are in demand overseas as racehorses and for breeding. The domestic thoroughbred industry ...
Business confidence remains very high and shows the economy is on track to improve, Economic Growth Minister Nicola Willis says. “The latest ANZ Business Outlook survey, released yesterday, shows business confidence and expected own activity are ‘still both very high’.” The survey reports business confidence fell eight points to +54 ...
Enabling works have begun this week on an expanded radiology unit at Hawke’s Bay Fallen Soldiers’ Memorial Hospital which will double CT scanning capacity in Hawke’s Bay to ensure more locals can benefit from access to timely, quality healthcare, Health Minister Simeon Brown says. This investment of $29.3m in the ...
The Government has today announced New Zealand’s second international climate target under the Paris Agreement, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealand will reduce emissions by 51 to 55 per cent compared to 2005 levels, by 2035. “We have worked hard to set a target that is both ambitious ...
Nine years of negotiations between the Crown and iwi of Taranaki have concluded following Te Pire Whakatupua mō Te Kāhui Tupua/the Taranaki Maunga Collective Redress Bill passing its third reading in Parliament today, Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “This Bill addresses the historical grievances endured by the eight iwi ...
As schools start back for 2025, there will be a relentless focus on teaching the basics brilliantly so all Kiwi kids grow up with the knowledge, skills and competencies needed to grow the New Zealand of the future, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. “A world-leading education system is a key ...
Housing Minister Chris Bishop and Associate Agriculture Minister Mark Patterson have welcomed Kāinga Ora’s decision to re-open its tender for carpets to allow wool carpet suppliers to bid. “In 2024 Kāinga Ora issued requests for tender (RFTs) seeking bids from suppliers to carpet their properties,” Mr Bishop says. “As part ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour has today visited Otahuhu College where the new school lunch programme has served up healthy lunches to students in the first days of the school year. “As schools open in 2025, the programme will deliver nutritious meals to around 242,000 students, every school day. On ...
Minister for Children Karen Chhour has intervened in Oranga Tamariki’s review of social service provider contracts to ensure Barnardos can continue to deliver its 0800 What’s Up hotline. “When I found out about the potential impact to this service, I asked Oranga Tamariki for an explanation. Based on the information ...
A bill to make revenue collection on imported and exported goods fairer and more effective had its first reading in Parliament, Customs Minister Casey Costello said today. “The Customs (Levies and Other Matters) Amendment Bill modernises the way in which Customs can recover the costs of services that are needed ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Department of Internal Affairs [the Department] has achieved significant progress in completing applications for New Zealand citizenship. “December 2024 saw the Department complete 5,661 citizenship applications, the most for any month in 2024. This is a 54 per cent increase compared ...
Reversals to Labour’s blanket speed limit reductions begin tonight and will be in place by 1 July, says Minister of Transport Chris Bishop. “The previous government was obsessed with slowing New Zealanders down by imposing illogical and untargeted speed limit reductions on state highways and local roads. “National campaigned on ...
Finance Minister Nicola Willis has announced Budget 2025 – the Growth Budget - will be delivered on Thursday 22 May. “This year’s Budget will drive forward the Government’s plan to grow our economy to improve the incomes of New Zealanders now and in the years ahead. “Budget 2025 will build ...
For the Government, 2025 will bring a relentless focus on unleashing the growth we need to lift incomes, strengthen local businesses and create opportunity. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon today laid out the Government’s growth agenda in his Statement to Parliament. “Just over a year ago this Government was elected by ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour welcomes students back to school with a call to raise attendance from last year. “The Government encourages all students to attend school every day because there is a clear connection between being present at school and setting yourself up for a bright future,” says Mr ...
The Government is relaxing visitor visa requirements to allow tourists to work remotely while visiting New Zealand, Economic Growth Minister Nicola Willis, Immigration Minister Erica Stanford and Tourism Minister Louise Upston say. “The change is part of the Government’s plan to unlock New Zealand’s potential by shifting the country onto ...
The opening of Kāinga Ora’s development of 134 homes in Epuni, Lower Hutt will provide much-needed social housing for Hutt families, Housing Minister Chris Bishop says. “I’ve been a strong advocate for social housing on Kāinga Ora’s Epuni site ever since the old earthquake-prone housing was demolished in 2015. I ...
Trade and Investment Minister Todd McClay will travel to Australia today for meetings with Australian Trade Minister, Senator Don Farrell, and the Australia New Zealand Leadership Forum (ANZLF). Mr McClay recently hosted Minister Farrell in Rotorua for the annual Closer Economic Relations (CER) Trade Ministers’ meeting, where ANZLF presented on ...
A new monthly podiatry clinic has been launched today in Wairoa and will bring a much-needed service closer to home for the Wairoa community, Health Minister Simeon Brown says.“Health New Zealand has been successful in securing a podiatrist until the end of June this year to meet the needs of ...
The Judicial Conduct Commissioner has recommended a Judicial Conduct Panel be established to inquire into and report on the alleged conduct of acting District Court Judge Ema Aitken in an incident last November, Attorney-General Judith Collins said today. “I referred the matter of Judge Aitken’s alleged conduct during an incident ...
Students who need extra help with maths are set to benefit from a targeted acceleration programme that will give them more confidence in the classroom, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. “Last year, significant numbers of students did not meet the foundational literacy and numeracy level required to gain NCEA. To ...
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters has announced three new diplomatic appointments. “Our diplomats play an important role in ensuring New Zealand’s interests are maintained and enhanced across the world,” Mr Peters says. “It is a pleasure to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and ...
Ki te kahore he whakakitenga, ka ngaro te Iwi – without a vision, the people will perish. The Government has achieved its target to reduce the number of households in emergency housing motels by 75 per cent five years early, Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka says. The number of households ...
The opening of Palmerston North’s biggest social housing development will have a significant impact for whānau in need of safe, warm, dry housing, Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka says. The minister visited the development today at North Street where a total of 50 two, three, and four-bedroom homes plus a ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced the new membership of the Public Advisory Committee on Disarmament and Arms Control (PACDAC), who will serve for a three-year term. “The Committee brings together wide-ranging expertise relevant to disarmament. We have made six new appointments to the Committee and reappointed two existing members ...
Ka nui te mihi kia koutou. Kia ora, good morning, talofa, malo e lelei, bula vinaka, da jia hao, namaste, sat sri akal, assalamu alaikum. It’s so great to be here and I’m ready and pumped for 2025. Can I start by acknowledging: Simon Bridges – CEO of the Auckland ...
The Government has unveiled a bold new initiative to position New Zealand as a premier destination for foreign direct investment (FDI) that will create higher paying jobs and grow the economy. “Invest New Zealand will streamline the investment process and provide tailored support to foreign investors, to increase capital investment ...
Science, Innovation and Technology Minister Judith Collins today announced the largest reset of the New Zealand science system in more than 30 years with reforms which will boost the economy and benefit the sector. “The reforms will maximise the value of the $1.2 billion in government funding that goes into ...
Turbocharging New Zealand’s economic growth is the key to brighter days ahead for all Kiwis, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon says. In the Prime Minister’s State of the Nation Speech in Auckland today, Christopher Luxon laid out the path to the prosperity that will affect all aspects of New Zealanders’ lives. ...
The latest set of accounts show the Government has successfully checked the runaway growth of public spending, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. “In the previous government’s final five months in office, public spending was almost 10 per cent higher than for the same period the previous year. “That is completely ...
The Government’s welfare reforms are delivering results with the number of people moving off benefits into work increasing year-on-year for six straight months. “There are positive signs that our welfare reset and the return consequences for job seekers who don't fulfil their obligations to prepare for or find a job ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By A J Brown, Professor of Public Policy & Law, Centre for Governance & Public Policy, Griffith University Australia has turned the corner on its decade-long slide on Transparency International’s annual Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI), once again ranking in the top ten least ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Nicole Bridges, Senior Lecturer in Public Relations and Director of Academic Program – Communication, Creative Industries, Screen Media, Western Sydney University Stock Rocket/Shutterstock For new parents struggling with challenges such as breastfeeding and sleep deprivation, social media can be a great ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Scott French, Senior Lecturer in Economics, UNSW Sydney US President Donald Trump and Prime Minister Anthony Albanese have stated an exemption for Australia from Trump’s executive order placing 25% tariffs on all steel and aluminium imported into the US is “under consideration”. ...
Analysis - Christopher Luxon's attempts to turn the tables back on the Opposition at Question Time today went down like a lead balloon, Jo Moir writes. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Brenton Griffin, Casual Lecturer and Tutor in History, Indigenous Studies, and Politics, Flinders University American Primeval/Netflix On January 24, leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, more commonly known as the Mormon Church, penned a statement condemning the ...
It comes as Whangārei District Council is under fire from the Director General of Health Dr Diana Sarfati after it voted in December against adding fluoridation to the water. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Paul Strangio, Emeritus Professor of Politics, Monash University Is history repeating itself in Labor’s fortress state of Victoria? At the 1990 federal election, Bob Hawke’s Labor government had a near-death experience when it lost nine seats in Victoria. A furious Hawke laid ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Lisa Nissen, HERA Program Director – Health Workforce Optimisation Centre for the Business & Economics of Health, The University of Queensland Rawpixel.com/Shutterstock If you’ve tried to get an appointment to see a GP or specialist recently, you will likely have felt ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Peta Ashworth, Professor and Director, Curtin Institute for Energy Transition, Curtin University Large power grids are among the most complicated machines humans have ever devised. Different generators produce power at various times and at various costs. A generator might fail and another ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Bronwyn Orr, Veterinarian, Southern Cross University Mitchell Orr/Unsplash Late last year, rumours swirled online that HomeSafeID, a private Australian pet microchip registry, had stopped operating. On Feburary 5 2025, a notice appeared on the HomeSafeID website, ostensibly from the site’s ...
The government is taking far too long to allocate the 1500 social homes it announced nine months ago and the hold up is stalling desperately-needed homes, says a community housing provider. ...
The agency is setting a 12-week limit on how much rent debt a tenant can accumulate as part of a change in approach that will also see almost half of the outstanding dept wiped away. ...
The media is rife with headlines about people killing animals for kicks. Please don’t.In memory of an Auckland swan, a Bay of Plenty octopus and a Taranaki striped marlin.Imagine this. It’s 7.15am. You’re paddling around on a serene lake with your sweetheart. It seems likely that she’ll give ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra US President Donald Trump has agreed to “consider” exempting Australia from the 25% tariff he has imposed on imports of steel and aluminium to the US. Trump gave the undertaking during a wide-ranging 40-minute ...
Pacific Media Watch Israeli police have confiscated hundreds of books with Palestinian titles or flags without understanding their contents in a draconian raid on a Palestinian educational bookshop in occupied East Jerusalem, say eyewitnesses. More details have emerged on the Israeli police raid on a popular bookstore in occupied East ...
By Caleb Fotheringham, RNZ Pacific journalist China and the Cook Islands’ relationship “should not be disrupted or restrained by any third party”, says Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Guo Jiakun, as opposition leaders in Rarotonga express a loss of confidence in Prime Minister Mark Brown. In response to questions from the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Chris Ogden, Associate Professor in Global Studies, University of Auckland, Waipapa Taumata Rau Donald Trump is moving rapidly to change the contours of contemporary international affairs, with the old US-dominated world order breaking down into a multipolar one with many centres of ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ronnie Das, Associate Professor in Data Analytics, The University of Western Australia In the recent Border-Gavaskar series against India, Steve Smith agonisingly missed out reaching 10,000 Test runs in front of his home crowd at the Sydney Cricket Ground, falling short by ...
In a brand new documentary series for The Spinoff, comedians and best friends Brynley Stent and Kura Forrester embark on a cross-country quest to find love. Bryn & Ku’s Singles Club is a brand new documentary series for The Spinoff following award-winning comedians and friends Brynley Stent and ...
🚐 Bryn and Ku pack their bags and swap the bleak dating scene of Tāmaki Makaurau for some meet and mingle events in Ōtautahi that will take them out of their comfort zone. ❣️ Bryn & Ku’s Singles Club follows comedians Brynley Stent and Kura Forrester as they head out ...
"The relationship between China and the Cook Islands does not target any third party," the Chinese Foreign Ministry says, as opposition leaders in Rarotonga plan protest. ...
From tradwives to ‘petite blonde’ preferences, this season feels like a throwback for all the wrong reasons, writes Alex Casey. First of all: I know. Complaining about bad stuff on Married at First Sight Australia is like complaining that water is wet. But I’ve been bobbing around in these waters ...
As part of our series exploring how New Zealanders live and our relationship with money, a public servant who’s ‘trying to get better’ explains her approach to spending and saving. Want to be part of The Cost of Being? Fill out the questionnaire here.Gender: Female. Age: 24. Ethnicity: Pākehā and ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Zena Assaad, Senior Lecturer, School of Engineering, Australian National University Ziv Lavi/Shutterstock Last week, Google quietly abandoned a long-standing commitment to not use artificial intelligence (AI) technology in weapons or surveillance. In an update to its AI principles, which were first ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Brenainn Simpson, PhD Candidate, The University of Queensland Florian Nimsdorf / Shutterstock About 400 kilometres northwest of Sydney, just south of Dubbo, lies a large and interesting body of rock formed around 215 million years ago by erupting volcanoes. Known as ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mareike Riedel, Senior lecturer in law, Macquarie University The dramatic rise in antisemitic incidents has dominated headlines in Australia in recent months, with calls for urgent action to address what many are calling a crisis. The Executive Council of Australian Jewry ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jane McAdam, Scientia Professor and ARC Laureate Fellow, Kaldor Centre for International Refugee Law, UNSW Sydney For a long time, it seemed refugee law had little relevance to people fleeing the impacts of climate change and disasters. Nearly 30 years ago, ...
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As support for the coalition dips, the PM and his soon-to-be-deputy have engaged in a public war of words. Stewart Sowman-Lund has the details in today’s edition of The Bulletin. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. Support slips If there was ever a political honeymoon, or ...
my pick for story of the day..(so far..and from the herald..(go figure..!..)..
..the nz economy is just like irelands’..just before it collapsed..
..whoar..!..eh..?
“..A London-based hedge fund manager says New Zealand is like Ireland pre-global financial crisis –
and it’s only a matter of time before the Kiwi dollar plunges.
According to Bloomberg – Stephen Jen – a partner at SLJ Macro Partners and colleague Fatih Yimaz –
said in a note that while the “the case for kiwi seems compelling” –
the reality is “quite different”.
“New Zealand has severe structural weaknesses that are very similar to those of crisis-hit southern European and southern emerging-market economies.
Kiwi may be 20 per cent overvalued” the pair said.
While it was easy to tell a good story for the Kiwi –
the analysts said they were not convinced.
“The economy has high growth – high terms of trade- and the currency is high-yielding.
However, the case for kiwi is in our view –
much less persuasive.”
They told Bloomberg New Zealand’s economy resembled those in Europe and the emerging market just before they were engulfed by crisis –
“a growth model based on debt and credit –
low savings rates –
and current-account deficits”..”
(cont..)
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11204355
..phillip ure..
Excellent – let’s elect a government that wants to tax and spend more so in a few years we can say the last 3 Labour governments have ended in economic crisis.
Excellent – lets have Burt provide an ounce of proof to ‘its’ stupid assertion or be known as the Dunce of the day…
so burt..you get a special wrong-end-of-the-stick award..
..as clearly the rich have to pay more..
..we can’t just keep on borrowing to fund that $1 billion tax cut key/the tories gave to the richest..eh..?
..we need to restore some balance here..
..clearly just allowing the rich to get even richer..
..on the back of state-borrowing…
..is a form of madness..
..that will only end badly..
..phillip ure..
GST increased and borrowing from $18m to $55bn under National…
Is tax and borrow better than tax and spend Burt?
Well, John Key did once say he wanted us to be the Ireland of the South Pacific.
For skeptics:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10336608
Yep Hayden and Fran was his loudest supporter.
I don’t think NZ has had the building boom that Ireland had.
It’s too expensive here to build houses so we mostly have just done up bathrooms and kitchens in old houses and then flogged them to each other for stupidly high prices and then felt smug that we were somehow better off.
Ireland had many empty spec houses which collapsed the price, I don’t think NZ has that excess of housing which could cause house prices to drop as dramatically as they did in Ireland.
I’m completely open to someone challenging that view however.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9732605/Labour-links-at-TVNZ-revealed
Is this really a surprise?
No, but nor is it a surprise at the NZHerald, NBR, Whaleoil, Kiwiblog, etc
Quelle surprise journalistic objectivity is dead.
David Cunliffe to Paul Henry: “I though you were supposed to be politically neutral.”
Paul Henry: “Don’t be stupid.”
Bit silly using the TVNZ resources though, free shot much?
Rightly or wrongly the private media carry bias sometimes openly sometimes not but they are none the less private and can spend their money how they choose. Using public resource to organise political events is naïve at best and leaves you open to the ensuing shit storm when you get found out.
Is there no one in Labour thinking critically about what goes on? The msm is bias and loves to pick holes and create controversy (see baby bonus) is it to much to ask that someone is looking at things from a critical angle to minimise the openings? ie making sure the hand out to media on the day matches the one on the website?
Yeah, because “Labour” totes knew exactly what was going on and approved it. Nah.
Ok in this instance Shane is a member and prospective candidate, if he cant see that organising and holding a political presentation using the resource of the state broadcaster leaves him wide open and labour by association to a media shit storm is he a good candidate?
I agree; this says something about Shane’s judgement. He isn’t a candidate though, is he?
However, if Labour are to be judged by his behaviour, what do we make of the Prime Minister’s close relationship with a man who makes his living mocking dead children?
yup, but the media are describing tvnz resources as used by the Labour Party…
Labour and some of their so-called supporters have a frightening tendancy to shoot themselves in the foot.
I think Cunliffe should concede now… seriously.
Green party has my vote for sure.
Concede now, with Dotcom and Banks still to have their days in court? With John Key having confessed his association with Cameron Slater? With National under 50% in a Fairfax poll? The same National that appointed their former chief of staff to the TVNZ board?
Yeah, cos the people who will vote dont hear all that… they hear “Labour party misused TVNZ resources” Death by a tthousand knives…
I shudder at what other messes are yet to be revealed. Labour just doesn’t have the money to cover up their stupidity that the right does
Messes are inevitable, on both sides.
Taurima will fade away, and Cameron? Not so much.
hasn’t the slater connection with key died already in the public mind if it ever gained traction? despite what Slater and his followers think, the majority of kiwis will have no idea who is without constant reminding.
yes, while they drag out the reds under the bed, the blues are jumping up and down on top of the bed, cheering very loudly, looking like pricks
Fair enough comment, Labour as a whole party tho is a pretty broad church with a lot of different people working away at a lot of different things so while Labour will cop some flak over Taurima’s use of the TVNZ emails and in one instance what appears to be a meeting room you have to draw a long bow to tie the Party or David Cunliffe to being responsible for such actions,
Obviously there is a wider cloak worn by both the Party and David Cunliffe which makes them in the public eye responsible for everything anyone with any connection to the Party says or does,
Shane Taurima, pretty much a johnny come lately to the Labour Party having been a member for barely a year has done Himself no favors if He really intends to seek the Labour Party nomination to be the Parties candidate in the Tamaki-Makaurau electorate being vacated this year by Slippery the Prime Ministers lap-dog Pita Sharples…
only as surprising as all the national links at tvnz, rnz, commerce comission, productivity commision…..
ok – its against company policy – you wont get me complaining there. But its hardly crime of the century or a major conspiracy and it totally ignores all the other rather obvious political appointees at tvnz
whats next? “labour candidate eats unpaid for biscuit at church fundraiser” ?
yeah..this is complete bullshit..
..our corporate-media is sodden with rightwing ‘acceptable-gatekeepers’/apologists….
..with that trout bryce edwards (a.k.a. edwards-the-younger..)..
..almost embarrassing in his gyrations/pleas to join those (un)hallowed-ranks..
..and they are pointing their fingers @ one of the few not ‘of them’…?
..w.t.f..!
phillip ure..
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[lprent: Standard flame troll pattern with clear indications of identity jacking. Comments deleted and auto-spammed. ]
true enough – buts its no watergate is it
yeah but none proven… see the difference?
It will be less surprising if and when a far-right connection is identified at 3News, eh Gower..
But Patrick Gower is openly barracking for the Government and openly revelling in dirt real or imagined to bring against the Left. So that is OK and who would dare complain. Steven Joyce would smother a complainer with smarm and condescension.
Gotta hand it to that Joyce, the lack of guilt he displays when making shit up is staggering, it flows from his tongue with such ease.
If this defamation thing becomes a trend though he could be a very busy boy for years to come.
So true that guy Joyce has pure liar DNA
…… Reptilian DNA
The January 18 hui was attended by Labour leader David Cunliffe and other MPs but a spokesman for Cunliffe stressed yesterday that the event was held at a marae, and not at TVNZ.
This morning Cunliffe said Taurima’s actions were a “lapse in judgement”.
“I’m sure that Taurima is, no doubt, a very good person, but he has shown a lapse of judgement in that regard,” he told Radio New Zealand.
“It’s now a matter for him and his former employer, and I’m sure that he realises that.”
Cunliffe said it was not necessarily a case of the state broadcaster being held to higher standards but two principles were central to the role of the news media.
“First is, the media should be neutral and unbiased and free from political influence and involvement. That should apply to all media, and it should apply to all parties including the Labour party.
“Secondly the people in high-profile positions such as in broadcasting roles must take extra care to ensure that their right to personal freedom of expression is separated from their professional role.”
No it is not a surprise, perhaps John Campbell’s hard left infomercial will change to TVI
perhaps he will start quoting this to the PM
“From Parliament’s point of view, the Privileges Committee provides an appropriate vehicle to resolve the points of conflict and to hold individuals to account. But from the Prime Minister’s and the Government’s point of view, that is not enough.
“Governments and Ministers must enjoy the confidence of the Parliament and, ultimately, the public. Faced with today’s revelations, it is no longer acceptable for Mr Peters to offer bluster and insults where simple, courteous, honest answers are required.
“It is no longer acceptable or credible for Helen Clark to assert a facade of confidence in her Foreign Affairs Minister and to fail to ask the plain questions of him that she has a duty to the public to ask.
“Faced with today’s revelations, Helen Clark must stand Mr Peters down as a Minister. That is what I would do if I were Prime Minister. Helen Clark has stood Ministers from Labour down for much less.
I heard the interviews on Nine to Noon this morning. Basically, I learned a couple of things. Ryan was treading very carefully in how she framed some questions, but, I could see the implications she was opening up.
1.Bias is judged by what actually goes on air. Editors and managers have a role here. No-one had complained about political bias in any of Shane Taurima’s programs.
2.Issue of misuse of work facilities – managers have a role to play in overseeing this. How good was the line of management in checking on this? This is an operational and management problem. Even Craig Foss was taking this line.
3.If there are questions about Taurima’s (and others) use of work resources, the first step is for an in-house inquiry. While that is happening, the precedents are that there is public name suppression of the accused.
This is what Ryan was treading carefully around. Basically saying it’s an election year, and everyone needs to be careful. How was it that these accusations were leaked to the media, before the in-house inquiry? Did the leak come from within TVNZ?
4.My judgement on what Ryan was not saying, but treading around, was this question: Was the leak to the media politically motivated? Anyone within TVNZ should first have gone to their managers with the complaint. If they leaked to the media, it could be seen as politically motivated. However, there was a possibility that the leak came from someone outside TVNZ – so not a good idea to make accusations of it being politically motivated.
5.Taurima accepted he had crossed the line in misusing TVNZ resources etc. He said he had always been professional in not being biased as an editor. And no-one is accusing him of this.
Once the info is in the public arena, it’s going to be used politically in an election year.
However, the other people in Shane’s team should have had name suppression until at least a formal inquiry had been conducted.
Fair enough.
Bennett is complaining though…
Frankly retaining hooten and williams in election year is poor judgment by RNZ…
Ugh, the Len Brown defense again.
Doesn’t matter who leaked it, reported it, mentioned, it labour was doing something really dodgy, got caught doing something they shouldn’t have been doing and now hey have to pay the price.
Be interesting to see how far up the chain this goes, if I was National I’d throw Shane a bone to get him to squeal, because lets be honest the chances of this this being some rogue activist working his own agenda is pretty remote.
Actually, it does matter who leaked it. The accused should get fair process as in precedents.
Yes. The managers also need to be investigated – they should have been keeping Taurima in check.
Ultimately though, everyone knew Taurima had stood for Labour. If people thought his programmes were biased they should have put in a formal complaint. Why wait til now?
The proof is there in the programmes for all to see. It was there before – nothing’s changed.
Taurima was stupid. His co-workers deserve fair process.
I’m more interested in knowing who in the Labour hierarchy knew what was going on. This could get very messy and damaging for all who are involved.
One positive though is TVNZ could be finally cleaned out of all the political activists(looking at you labour/greens) that infest that place and New Zealanders may eventually end up with a public broadcaster who is actually politically neutral and can present the news without a political bias.
BM
“One positive though is TVNZ could be finally cleaned out of all the political activists(looking at you labour/greens) that infest that place and New Zealanders may eventually end up with a public broadcaster who is actually politically neutral and can present the news without a political bias.”
Yeah, offload more of your crap logic, and that is why we need to find out what really happened, how “serious” that poor judgment of Taurima was, and who actually obtained the information that supposedly reveals so much, now exploited ruthlessly by an anyway very biased journalist like Patrick Gower.
This is all coming at a very convenient time for National and Key, distracting from questions about how he knows so many details about who visited Kim Dotcom and how often, which a “whale-spew” blogster would hardly have known himself alone.
It is also surprising how little concerned Key and the Broadcasting Minister are. Is this perhaps not something that came out of that once quoted “top drawer” of John Key, so that it could serve as some justification to prepare for the privatisation or sale of TVNZ? Does it not suit them so well, as a reason for shutting down any remaining “dissent” amongst TVNZ staff, and for “bringing them into line”, so that NO critical interviews are conducted anymore, when National Party politicians appear on current affairs shows or the news?
Strangely Shane Taurima never struck me as that biased, he was actually one of the few, do dared to ask the hard questions, that nobody else at TVNZ ever dared to ask.
This story is far from over!
I completely agree, it’s all upside for the blue team and turds on the toast for the red team.
Don’t count your chickens this early in election year, my friend!
@ xstasy..
“.Does it not suit them so well, as a reason for shutting down any remaining “dissent” amongst TVNZ staff, and for “bringing them into line”, so that NO critical interviews are conducted anymore, when National Party politicians appear on current affairs shows or the news?
Strangely Shane Taurima never struck me as that biased, he was actually one of the few, do dared to ask the hard questions, that nobody else at TVNZ ever dared to ask..”
i agree with those two paragraphs..
..i have been thinking the first para all day..
..and i agree that he was a good interviewer..
..and i think he was as hard on everyone..
..i watched a lot of native affairs when he was running it..
..and i repeat..he was one of the few who would ask the hard questions..
..of anyone..as far as i cd see..
..and the likes of bennett and henare cryng ‘poor me!’..
..is just utter bullshit..
..yes..taurima was a fool..
..but everyone now lining up and dumping on him like he is the anti-christ..
..is way beyond the pale..
..phillip ure..
This is worrying stuff, and I am a bit surprised it does not get addressed all that much here on TS. Perhaps we should start looking at what kind of persons we are dealing with, who “brought” us this story, and are apparently out on a bit of a “crusade” against Labour:
http://imperatorfish.com/2013/06/28/patrick-gower-put-on-notice-by-colleagues/
‘Imperator Fish’ wrote on 28 June 2013:
“3 News Political Editor Patrick Gower has been put on notice that his performance must improve if he is to keep his job.”
“Questions have been raised about Gower’s leadership style ever since he took over as political editor from Duncan Garner.
One person inside the 3 News camp has accused Gower of being “tight”, and of failing to motivate his colleagues.”
“The journalist, speaking on condition of anonymity, said: “the team is just really flat and unmotivated. Whenever we have a team gathering to celebrate a great story it’s always instant coffee and wine biscuits.”
…”It is understood that Gower is still in contact with Garner, and that Garner may be offering support and advice to Gower.
“We send each other texts occasionally,” Gower has previously admitted. “But I’m my own leader.”
Gower has also appeared preoccupied with uncovering scandals and chasing MPs down building corridors, and has failed to tackle the important business of keeping everyone in the office moderately contented.”
Who is HE, the “ugly one” as the TV3 ‘Political Editor’?
http://nz.linkedin.com/pub/patrick-gower-new-zealand/24/496/a47
3 News Political Editor
MediaWorks NZ
Privately Held; 1001-5000 employees; Broadcast Media industry
November 2012 – Present (1 year 4 months) Wellington
3 News Political Reporter
MediaWorks NZ
Privately Held; 1001-5000 employees; Broadcast Media industry
February 2010 – November 2012 (2 years 10 months)
Political Reporter
New Zealand Herald
Public Company; 501-1000 employees; Newspapers industry
July 2008 – December 2009 (1 year 6 months)
Investigative Reporter
New Zealand Herald
Public Company; 501-1000 employees; Newspapers industry
July 2006 – July 2008 (2 years 1 month)
Sports Editor
TNT Magazine
Privately Held; 11-50 employees; Publishing industry
August 2005 – January 2006 (6 months)
Reporter
IHS Jane’s
Public Company; 201-500 employees; IHS; Information Services industry
July 2004 – July 2005 (1 year 1 month)
Reporter
New Zealand Herald
Public Company; 501-1000 employees; Newspapers industry
February 2000 – February 2004 (4 years 1 month)
Education:
Patrick Gower – New Zealand’s Education
Auckland University of Technology
Graduate Diploma, Journalism
1999 – 1999
Victoria University of Wellington
BA (Hons), Political Science
1995 – 1998
Own Comment:
Well, he has a DIPLOMA in journalism, which is not quite a “high quality” “tertiary” education, being one of those short courses that prepare so many to “qualify” as “journalists” here in New Zealand. Those courses at AUT maybe ok to ready oneself to work for a community newspaper, but compared with internationally comparable journalism skills, it is not thrilling stuff. I concede he had a degree from Victoria Uni, but who knows how well he did there?
After that it was some longer involvement with the NZ Herald, and then off to Mediaworks, where he still is with TV3.
He seems to be “mates” with Duncan Garner, another one with a somewhat questionable track record, in some aspects:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Garner
Quote from Wikipedia:
“In the wake of the 2010 MPs expenses scandal, Labour politician Chris Carter alleged Garner said “I am going to fucking well get you” to him at an Air New Zealand Koru Club lounge in 2009. The head of TV3 news and current affairs Mark Jennings replied saying Garner did not have a grudge, and “Carter is a serial offender on expenses … it’s Duncan’s job to shine the light on that.””
P.S.: The way Gower has presented the “revelations”, which do appear to expose some poor judgment and unprofessional conduct by Taurima, is like a “witch hunt”. He blows it well out of proportions, almost raising suspicion that TVNZ is a hive full of Labour activists and strategists, who have managed to start their election campaign from their work base at TVNZ. I fear this will lead to TVNZ going to be extremely tight on any future “risks” of being seen to be biased in any way, especially when it comes to Labour politicians. The National friendly tone of most of TVNZ’s broadcast will now get a cast iron affirmation, hence the Prime Minister and Minister of Broadcasting are anything but worried.
More insight into the social lives and connections of media journalists and “media personalities” that are the top dogs in the MSM (mainstream media). It seems to be revolving not just around work, but also booze ups and dinners in various circles, all somehow being “matey” with each other:
Source:
‘Metro’ magazine, online:
“My drunken dinner with Duncan”
http://metromag.co.nz/current-affairs/dinner-with-duncan/
“It wasn’t as though I’d planned to reduce broadcaster Duncan Garner to a drunk, sobbing and accusatory wreck when I went around to his house in New Windsor to profile him for Metro. Things perhaps got out of hand. We both enjoy a drink. Drinks.”
“Patrick Gower, who succeeded Garner as political editor at TV3, also talked about Garner’s loyalty and support. Garner headhunted Gower, taking him from the Herald to TV3, chatting him up outside parliament one day with the stirring line: “I’m tired of fighting these pricks. I need some help.” Gower: “He had me at pricks. What fucken better job offer is there? “ Even so, Gower was afraid of failing in the new job, his first on TV. But he said Garner stood by him in his first difficult year. “He made a big commitment to looking after me. It was a lot of extra work, but he never shirked his responsibility.”
Looking after Gower, looking after me – what was Garner, some kind of godfather? True, he was as a big as Tony Soprano. Radio Hauraki presenter Matt Heath has memorably described him as, “A couch inside a suit.” Did he look after Guyon Espiner, too? He had gone one better than that.”
Interesting. Thanks, xtasy. I wonder which “pricks” Garner was tired of fighting?
“..“A couch inside a suit.”
..heh..!
..i quite like the description of ‘chem-trails’ as ‘a bug-eyed gomer pyle’..too..
..that still makes me chuckle..
..even after all this time..
….and garner will now forever be..
..’a couch inside a suit’..
..heh..!
..well done..!..that matt heath..!
phillip ure..
Yeh, but what with Paddy Gower, Paul Henry, the chap at NZonAir, te Herald, jason Ede, Key DPF and Whaleoil et al the purpose of the media pack do seem to be leaning toward preventing a change of government rather than any sort of watchdog kind of thing…oh and Rachael Glucina??
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/9732648/Measles-myths-blamed-for-outbreaks
There are some dumb ass parents out there
PR
It’s not so much that the parents were; “dumb ass”, so much as systematically misled by frauds and zealots [from your stuff link]:
“In 1998, a study by British doctor Andrew Wakefield was published in international medical journal The Lancet, linking the triple MMR vaccine – for measles, mumps and rubella – with an increased risk of autism. Thousands of parents boycotted the MMR jab before the research was eventually discredited.”
“There’s still the myth that there’s a problem with this [measles] vaccine,” Immunisation Advisory Centre director of research Helen Petousis-Harris said. “It’s taken many, many years to reassure people that this isn’t the case. It’s not only about protecting yourself but the rest of the population as well, and it is a disease we can eradicate if we get the rates up high enough.”
But then again, these tactics of spurious research and manufactured controversy leading to uncertainty, are not so very different from those of the; anti-floridation brigade, tobacco shills, and climate-deniers.
That study was debunked quite early on but when celebrities like Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey stick their oars in I guess the gullible are easily fooled
you already know the gullible are easily fooled. Look at all the people who voted for National again in 2011…
Fool me once shame on John Key, keep fooling me over and over and over, shame on Puckish Rogue
PR
“Wakefield’s results could not be replicated, and he was struck off by the General Medical Council in 2010.” 12 years after the Lancet publication of that 1998 study.
Do you not even bother reading past the title of the links you post here?
It was discredited early, it just wasn’t proven to be falsified until much later.
You should do more background research before slagging people off.
La
To say; “it was discredited early”, implies that a study of 12 subjects that didn’t establish a causal relationship even on it’s own terms, ever had credibility. The 1998 Lancet article was not finally retracted until the week after the GMC decision in 2010.
“In October 2012, research published in PNAS, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, identified Wakefield’s 1998 paper as the most cited retracted scientific paper, with 758 citations, and gave the “reason for retraction” as “fraud”.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield#Journal_retractions
So what’s your point, then?
You’re agreeing it never had any credibility, and then slagging off PR for saying that?
La
My point was that PR did not appear to have read the article to which he linked. Also; “debunked” and “discredited” have different meanings.
The 748 citations within a 14year period indicate that many had an interest in furthering the fraud for their own purposes. Have a click on McFlock’s link to see how that turned out.
It seemed to me that PR was simply talking about something different than what the article said, as evidenced by the fact that he mentioned celebrity endorsements being a significant reason for why the public kept believing the lies, which were not mentioned in the article at all.
As far as lay-discussion on the internet, I see “debunked” and “discredited” in the context of PR’s comment as being the same thing.
That should’ve read; “The 758 citations within a 14year period…”, clumsy fingers!
I agree that; “PR was simply talking about something different than what the article said”, which is why he should have provided further evidence/ links to support his claim. This is not the first topic on which he has made unsubstantiated claims.
The important distinction between the two terms is:
Something that has been debunked was always bunkum.
Someone who has been discredited, originally had credibility which has been since been destroyed.
As expressed somewhat harshly (but then not entirely falsely) here
The parallels between tobacco, climate-deniers and wakefield are very close, as ISTR wakefield did the MMR fraud because he was developing a competing vaccine.
Gotta love capitalism…
While i am not against vaccination at the population level …there is much that is not known
eg. doesnt the measles virus mutate ?….in which case it is a lot more complex than just immunizing for one strain of the virus…is it true that in the USA students who have been vaccinated still can get new strains of the virus …and in some cases they are worse off than if they hadnt been vaccinated at all, but had got the virus when they were children for a more all encompassing natural immunity ?
Vaccination is complex and even the experts are undecided on the long term collateral effects of it on the individuals health resilience integrity…maybe one needs to get viruses when young to rack up ones natural immunity for other diseases?
…just look at the controversy about the side effects of the meningitis vaccination program in Scandanavia….and then also there are about 49 different stains of meningititis
…i expect to be attacked for these heretical views , but I know there are doctors who also have reservations and some experts who have studied and developed vaccinations for years
..(.and no i cant give any citations and links because I cant be bothered to find them…but I have read them and i was given a book written by medical skeptics to read by a doctor who had reservations and wanted me to make up my own mind)
Will join you on that boat, Chooky.
Saying ALL vaccinations are good, is just as naive as saying there is no benefit to any..
When first having children, and being given the choice I read many books – some linking to studies – from both the pro and anti vaccination sides, and there is evidence on both sides.
But any medication comes with side effects that may be magnified by genetic disposition, body chemistry at the time, health of your immune system, and any other medications or chemicals you may be taking.
It always strikes me as ridiculous that GP’s use the occasion of children visiting a doctor while ill, to ensure (and perhaps implement) vaccinations while their immune system is already compromised.
And remember that the industry is not squeaky clean themselves in terms of data.
The Hept-B vaccine comes from the same company that hid the negative anti-depressant Aropax results for many years, resulting in incorrect prescribing and harm to patients, including suicide and death.
The map linked to also does not provide what I would consider to be useful information. How many of those cases were vaccinated? This also happens in newspaper articles and reports about outbreaks.
The efficacy of vaccinations is an important part of the discussion.
And look at the MENZ B vaccination.
Parents of infants were reassured by the Ministry of Health, by their doctors and nurses that the MENZ B vaccination would give their young children good protection through their school and uni years – the years that meningococcal B was the most dangerous and deadly.
Then as the vaccination programme was winding down it came out that NZ researchers already knew that the vaccination would only protect infants for less than 1 year, if that. No benefit plus plenty of risk.
A deceptive money making rort that was, with some pharmaceutical company collecting a nice pay packet for each useless dose administered.
Meningitis vaccines have been problematic as it is difficult to develop a vaccine against the strains which confers immunity beyond 3-5 years.
However the MENZ B was introduced during a specific outbreak in an attempt to curtail it continuing over a longer period. It was not a deceptive money making fort merely a calculated action by the then Minister and her advisors during a worrying outbreak.
Some of the newer vaccinations against meningococcal infection are significantly more effective.
So were parents of infants told exaggerated stories of the protection their children would receive?
Were parents of those infants told that any protection from the vaccine would probably not last until school age?
Was that information kept secret from parents so that management vaccination targets could be met, and what are the ethics of that?
And why should any parent who has been lied to, well shall we say ‘misled’, trust any reassurances that the newer vaccinations are “significantly more effective”.
Informed consent from parents would have been a pre-requisite for immunisation.
Why are you so anti immunisation when it is probably the most effective and safe medical intervention known ?
Tell that to my friend whose healthy young nephew after receiving the MMR vaccine went downhill for 2 weeks and then died. The death certificate stated cause of death unknown. He was 2 years old. Coincidence – I doubt it.
I’m sorry to hear that but also glad that you shared his tale.
The kinds of statistics used by pharma companies and governments to determine whether or not a drug is safe unfortunately views these one off incidents as irrelevant noise – “coincidence” as you termed it.
And that’s even if the incident is properly categorised so that over time enough young deaths might pile up over time to become statistically noticeable in the records.
BTW huge numbers of drug adverse effects in NZ go completely unrecorded because there is no systematically thorough way of centrally capturing incidents.
“BTW huge numbers of drug adverse effects in NZ go completely unrecorded because there is no systematically thorough way of centrally capturing incidents.”
Incorrect
https://nzphvc-01.otago.ac.nz/carm-adr/
Northshoredoc, I understood that the reporting regime of adverse drug reactions sees only 1 in 10 adverse events logged. This is considered good by international standards – which is part of the problem – there is a lack of solid data to compare with other countries.
Like the useless Mumps vaccine that meant a younger male relative got the wretched disease aged 19. Whoopee, gives immunity through childhood then hits them when they are full grown and up for the major side effects.
“Mumps vaccine is the best way to prevent mumps. This vaccine is included in the combination measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) and measles-mumps-rubella-varicella (MMRV) vaccines. Two doses of mumps vaccine are 88% (range: 66-95%) effective at preventing the disease; one dose is 78% (range: 49%−92%) effective. The first vaccine against mumps was licensed in the United States in 1967, and by 2005, high two-dose childhood vaccination coverage reduced disease rates by 99%.”
As for the side effect reporting, used to take some of the common asthma drugs and during a couple of severe attacks, lots of drugs in system, lossof bladder control.
Mentioned this to the Docs, but it was years before it was recorded as a known side effect.
And the pharmac generic of a common antibiotic that brought half the family out in a rash.
some of those asthma drugs killed people…the cure was worse than the complaint….i know of one woman who died prematurely taking an asthma drug..her family blamed the drug
oh ffs
I’ve heard eliminating poverty is useful too.
Little money for pharma corporates, health specialists and management consultants in that.
Vaccination is free. Poverty is immaterial. It’s free.
CV
It seemed to me that the anti virus team, for the outbreak of meningitis?, felt that they had only one lot of medication to use at the time and that further delay might lead to a cascade of problems further along in time. It could well have been that the lead time to obtaining and supplying better vaccine might be too long, by which time the willingness to fund it might have vanished and then nothing might get done.
You aren’t against vaccination are you CV?
Thats a lot of excuses for giving a lot of NZ infants a poorly researched vaccination costing tax payers over a hundred million dollars, and which conveyed to young infants almost no protection (a few months, if that).
As for being “against vaccination” – some vaccinations are of far more value than others. I am definitely against their indescriminate and poorly researched use eg. on children who were already immune to meningitis B bacteria.
Which vaccinations in your opinion are worthwhile ?
What relevant qualifications do you have to be opining on this issue ?
Firstly, the decision as to what treatment is worthwhile or desirable for a patient should be undertaken in conjunction with patients and their families. Not just a few PhD/researcher types that you think are worthy of having an opinion or worthy of raising questions.
Secondly – if it takes more than ten thousand doses of a vaccination to prevent a single death or serious injury, I think that its utility to the individual starts becoming truly marginal and patients should be informed of that fact. That’s not even mentioning the $$$ being better spent on other areas of healthcare where there is more bang for the buck, bigger improvement in QALYs etc.
The utility of government funded immunisation has been looked at by the Ministry and PHARMAC who are charged with the funding of community and hospital medicines and vaccinations in NZ – they do a more than acceptable job of getting value for money compared to most other health agencies around the world.
Your second paragraph suggests that you understand neither the rationale for population based immunisation nor much else about public health. As I have stated previously in this discussion all patients/parents undergo informed consent prior to delivery of vaccinations although as you have demonstrated it is nigh on impossible to inform someone who doesn’t wish to be informed.
New Zealand had huge problems with Hep B prior to the introduction of vaccination this is why the MoH funded the vaccination FoC from the mid 80s and why Hep B incidence has decreased drastically over the last decades
Where’s the reasearch to show the causal connection between introduction of the vaccination and the “drastic” decline of Hep B rates and movement in other Hep rates, please.
I’m not you mum, find it yourself.
Try starting at the ministry vaccination site I’m sure they’ll have something.
http://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/preventative-health-wellness/immunisation
or
http://www.health.govt.nz/your-health/conditions-and-treatments/diseases-and-illnesses/hepatitis-b
So you declared a definite causal connection with drastic declines in hep B incidence but have only the most general non peer reviewed links to back it up? Ok.
Look, just ask any qualified medical professional in NZ whether hep B vaccination is effective you’ll get a resounding yes.
if you look in google scholar there’s plenty of information this is the first in the list but there’s many more.
http://journal.nzma.org.nz/journal/124-1332/4603/content.pdf
Can you tell us why you appear to be anti immunisation and what your relevant qualifications are ?
I’m a chiropractor and I’ve taken some medical statistics at the graduate level, although I am not qualified in statistics per se.
Firstly, “anti-immunisation” is a nonsense allegation, like being “anti-pain killers.” There are some instances where their use is entirely necessary and some other instances where their use is definitely optional or not necessary.
Secondly, I didn’t ask for evidence that the Hep B vaccination is effective, I asked for evidence for your assertion that the Hep B vaccination was responsible for “dramatically” reducing the incidence of Hep B in NZ. These are two completely different questions.
I was interested as you jumped into a thread which was about measles and the MMR vaccine and proceeded to go off on a tangent, which i found odd and a bit reminiscent of some of the debating tactics of the anti immunisation activists in NZ and other jurisdictions.
I trust you are now happier about the value of hep B immunisation in NZ if not you should ask your tutor(?) in medical statistics.
Still interested to know which instances as a member of the public that you believe immunisation is as you say ‘ entirely necessary and some other instances where their use is definitely optional or not necessary.’
As it might provide some insight as to where the MoH have performed well or poorly in their efforts to educate the population as to the benefit of immunisation.
For clarity, although I would personally prefer not to be vaccinated at all, I have had vaccinations previously and received them for good reason. Once it enters the realm of 0.01% to 0.001% chance of personal benefit however, I really would not bother.
“Once it enters the realm of 0.01% to 0.001% chance of personal benefit however, I really would not bother.”
Brilliant, if everyone took that attitude we could look forward to many epidemics in the future.
In that case, don’t beat around the bush. Just come straight out with the truth and give parents the information that there is next to zero chance that their child will directly benefit from the vaccination that you want them to authorise.
Another four high school children notified with Measles in Auckland over the last two days.
Can I encourage anyone with unvaccinated children at the schools of these kids to keep them at home for the next week and unless there is a very good reason not to vaccinate them please have them vaccinated in the near future at your local General practice.
+100 Molly
Nobody says that all vaccinations are perfect.
But all of them are a fuck of a lot better than the disease they protect against (and in the case of multiple strains of a virus, e.g. influenza, the seasonal mix is based on the expected variants that year). To the degree that my personal belief is that hippies who refuse to immunise children based on non-medical grounds (e.g. allergic to vaccine) should be charged with child endangerment, failing to provide the necessities of life, or something similar.
What about parents who feed their children a steady diet of unhealthy food, should they be charged with endangering their kid’s health? Condemning the child to a life of obesity, diabetes, and all the resulting complications/discrimination might be worse than a dose of measles.
And what about govts that allow this food to be sold without sufficient controls; are they endangering child safety?
Even the US has now banned trans-fats, but this toxic substance does not even have to be labelled here (unless specific health claims are made about the foods they are in).
Obesity is a more gradual issue, and also has causes other than simple food intake. Si it would have to be an extreme case, and even then might be doubtful.
But immunisation is simply a clearly-defined and recorded act, like filling in a census form. Easier to verify and test.
@ ergo..+ 1..
phillip ure..
@ McFlock….dont be such a bloody authoritarian fascist …what have you got against hippies?!
one of my best friends did not get her three sons immunised and she is/was not a “hippie” ….far from it…her sons have always had perfect health…and she has been a meticulous mother as regards their well-being
i was a bit young to be a “hippie” (.although i admired them a lot!)….and although i had my own children immunised for some things reluctantly ……and after quite some thought… and some time after they were very little babies ..i still wonder if i did the right thing ( my doctor was quietly skeptical about immunising very little babies…and some vaccines and the necessity of others)
it amazes me how self important and judgmental other doctors and people are of parents who decide not to vaccinate their children ( when the evidence is that health like education is multi -factoral and way beyond their control)…they need to loosen up imo
the smell
Your friend is an idiot.
Your friend’s kids are reaping the benefits of everyone else’s immunisation, so far. Other kids haven’t been so lucky.
So how’s your smallpox been lately?
Smallpox was decreasing before immunisation was introduced.
sorry, me polio’s acting up again
polio hasnt gone to the brain has it?
can’t hear you over the iron lung I’m in…
The thing i can’t get my head around McFlock is that you smoke, even though you know it decreases your time on this planet – you choose to do it and you may even say that it affects no one except yourself (although even if alone no man is an island eh). You choose and hold the right to choose as important to you even against overwhelming evidence that it isn’t good for you, the community and the planet and supports the multinational drug suppliers helping them get richer and destroy more of the planet – you know all that and you say you can do whateverthefuckyoulike – and i agree with that. But then you say that parents who choose to not immunize should be charged and what? Get their children taken off them? Given to law abiding good citizens like you? That to me is hypocritical and sanctimonious eh?…. Sure you’ll talk about the ‘other’ kids at risk and blah blah but really do you give a fuck? How do you reconcile those two positions mate because they seem a bit off to me. One set of doctors = good/agree. one set of doctors = bad/disagree. Difference?
I believe the phrase is, “do as I say,…”
Interesting thought, Marty, my smoking choice vs parents getting kids vaccinated.
Neither position disagrees with the doctors.
But the reason I smoke is quality of life. I enjoy it. Who enjoys measles?
Don’t get me wrong, I get the entire freedom of religion/belief thing, but I’m not sure that that includes anti-vac nutbars wanting their kids to be infected with virulent forms of various viruses.
my friend is certainly no idiot…and she wanted her kids to have the usual wild measles , mumps, chickenpox when they were young….if anything the immunised kids were a threat to her kids
Any parent that would rather their child get infected with a live virus rather than adead one is an idiot. And as for that “the immunised kids were a threat to her kids” it’s drivel.
Natural pathogens generate quite a different immunogenic response to those in vaccinations. Natural pathogenic exposure has consistently been shown to create longer lasting and more complete immunity, for instance. Well, if you survive.
the last 4 words still make the argument.
😉
“if anything the immunised kids were a threat to her kids”
Probably not – it’s the non-immunised kids who were a threat to her kids (just as non-immunised kids are a threat to kids who are not in robust health for reasons such as chronic illness).
E.g. in the Welsh outbreak last year
http://www.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/888/page/66389
LOL
Hilarious. Trying to infer statistics from tiny numbers. Even five cases of children whose vaccination records weren’t properly kept or weren’t correctly searched for could dramatically change the ‘feel good’ statistics of 99 out of every 100 etc.
Official pseudo-science at its best.
I used that data because it’s the most recent outbreak (1455 cases over 9 months in 2013) with likely up to date records.
The data is…
In fact, the 1455 cases are a fairly significant number but that isn’t the number that is of interest to me as being most vulnerable.
It’s this one:
In other words, just 5 or 10 cases where previous MMR vaccination was not correctly recorded or not correctly found would double this “less than 10” stat, and therefore blow out the ‘feel good’ ratios that they are promoting about how effective the vaccination is.
Which is why they mentioned it’s inline with other published data, I guess.
It’s not the 10 or 20 cases that are the “feel good” factor. It’s the order of magnitude in the rate.
edit: that’s 1435 cases in the non-vaccinated minority, 20 cases in the vaccinated majority.
McFlock …why do you keep calling people who want their children immunised naturally idiots?…….she is NO idiot!..( you are the IDIOT!)
….her boys are strong , tall, lean (no excuses for obesity) and nonsmokers ( no excuses for smokers)and moderate drinkers( no excuses for alcoholics or those who drink to excess)….they hold down good jobs despite only just being out of their teens…one is a musician …the other a trainee chef…and the other a zoo keeper
…what do you do?…apart from drink and smoke…you are not a doc are you?…ha aha…what is the longevity of docs?….how healthy are they? …do they abuse their own drugs?…..do they get little golden handouts for every little poor kid they jab their questionable needles in?…are they completely unbiased on the issue of vaccinations ( because I know some doctors do oppose blanket immunisation of kids and they are the ones I respect!
yeah, she’s an idiot. But fortunately her kids are protected by all the parents who aren’t idiots.
Frankly, they all sound as boring as hell.
boring is in the mind and the heart of the beholder….
personally I am finding vaccine fanatics …( not even with good science or open minded inquiry about the possible long term and side effects)….who want to impose vaccines on everyone increasingly boring….and hypocritical
…i am quite shocked at the rigidity of some views expressed here and the determination by some that they are right and that their views on vaccination should be imposed on all parents ( otherwise it is child abuse..) quite ridiculous and disturbing!
I’m shocked that a parent would actually desire that their children be infected by virulent dieseases with known short and long term hazards rather than simply hide behind the vaccination efforts of other parents (let alone be immunised in a far safer manner than actually catching the disease).
As for the informed consent crap don’t give me that .About a decade ago, every high school student in the country had their details downloaded into the health system in pursuit of some vaccine or other and without the protocols being followed or parent consent obtained.
Nor should you get me started on Hutt Valley health’s consent form which is written in such a way as to imply that you must sign it rather than make an informed choice. Told the school I didn’t have to fill it out but they kept bleating about the nurse says you must and I’m damm sure they handed over the information against my express negative.
The health profession would do itself some good if they stopped the “we know what’s best for you” rubbish and actually respected the consent rules.
+100
So much for the lessons of National Womens.
“eg. doesnt the measles virus mutate ?….in which case it is a lot more complex than just immunizing for one strain of the virus…is it true that in the USA students who have been vaccinated still can get new strains of the virus …and in some cases they are worse off than if they hadnt been vaccinated at all, but had got the virus when they were children for a more all encompassing natural immunity ?”
The measles vaccination that is currently given free of charge as part of the MoH well child scheme is extremely effective in the short and long term. it is definitely not better to try for natural immunity than to be vaccinated.
let me say again measles is an extremely serious illness which can be life threatening, about 1 in every 10 who get it need to be hospitalised, 30 percent will get complications and the consequences of getting it when pregnant or if you’re young and can’t be immunised are disastrous in around half of all cases.
yes i know…i had measles and mumps and chicken pox when i was a kid…as did most of my generation ( i am grateful i was immunised against TB, polio and tetenus)…but i dont regret getting measles , mumps and chickenpox
…however there did not seem to be an epidemic of meningitis around then( which is very serious and shares some of the characteristics of measles)
…who is to say that if you dont get a natural immunity to one virus eg measles ,either by contracting it or getting immunity via your parents…you are more not more susceptible to another eg meningitis?
……….ie maybe viruses are not the enemy as such but a necessary way that the body jump starts and primes the immune system? …for other more serious diseases eg cancer
….there is a lot they dont know about viruses…whether they are alive ,whatever that means….. and what causes epidemics eg the Spanish flu straight after WW1….and whether viruses have some sort of symbiotic almost conscious sharing with their host on very subtle levels
“who is to say that if you dont get a natural immunity to one virus eg measles ,either by contracting it or getting immunity via your parents…you are more not more susceptible to another eg meningitis?”
Well I’ll say it – that is just incorrect.
I find it strange that you say you don’t regret getting Measles, mumps and chickenpox – I’m guessing you would regret it if you’d have had serious complications ?
Immunisation is the safest way of priming the immune system against specific diseases being exposed to the active infectious agent via an infected person is the most dangerous way.
A number of viruses are linked to causing specific cancers, yes there is a great deal we don’t know about infectious agents, what we do know is that immunisation against a number of infectious bacteria and viruses is not only very safe and cost effective it is also among the most effective interventions we have in modern medicine.
dont believe in flu jabs either, unless you are old and frail…..there is nothing like a good flu to clear your system out and prime you up ( that is unless you get complications as you say…but I am willing to take the risk at the moment)
…the vaccination industry is a multi-billion dollar business …say no more…..and with it comes a lot of indoctrination
Is the flu jab a waste of money?
This says that it may be, according to the Cochrane Collaboration.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/30/20804.aspx
The Daily Mail has a more colourful take: 115M quid flu jabs may be a waste of money.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1251562/115m-annual-flu-jab-cost-waste-money.html
holy fuck, did you just quote the DAILY MAIL in an argument about medicine?!
I couldn’t find the News of the World write up
Here’s one more for good measure. Flu vaccines “overhyped”
+100…. thanks CV
A query on a related but slightly angled away from what you lot are discussing,topic, David Cunliffe’s COS was it that had to resign with the very painful Shingles,
Strange question this, but, does anyone know if she had a dose of flu in ‘swine flu’ year,
And, if the answer to that is in the affirmative did this dose of swine flu, strangely, come with a dose of chicken pox,
Questions apply to anyone reading this…
This is the kind of query that medical trials can never answer because you could never set up a powerful enough designed trial to examine the question with anything even approaching likely ethics approval.
So the whole thing gets ignored.
Pardon CV, is that an answer to my little question…
well, you could look at primary healthcare records maybe. Depending on the records (maybe at practice level if a GP is interested in research as well). Not an experiment as such, but enough to see if it quacks if the sample set is large enough. Might get ethics approval depending on how it’s run, big project though.
If Mac, that is an answer to my little query above, your way off the mark of what i need to know, which is simply the odd example of a swine flu or ten that came with a dose of chicken pox as well,
Of course if that rings anyone’s bell, and the swine + chicken pox became + shingles later in the piece, like a year+ later that would create much mirth and hilarity in the factory here…
well, the direct answer would be “fuck if I know, but the closest you’d probably get is a lit search for a study similar to what I previously mentioned”. And anecdata is no data.
Mac, and i am hardly any sort of Doctor, just seeing if there is any tie in of the 3, swine,chicken-pox,shingles,(the shingles should come with a recurrence of swine),
And, this all, just to get confusing might relate to both H1N1, and, H3N2,
Believe me nobody has conducted any study around the 3, mention that the 3 might be linked to a ‘professional’ and they are likely to start rummaging in the bottom draw for the committal papers…
It’s a bit out of field for me, too. Have you asked them why they think it’s a nutty idea?
Yet again sigh……..
Influenza is a poor way to “clear your system and prime you up”
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm
Among healthy adults, influenza vaccine can prevent 70% to 90% of influenza-specific illness. Among the elderly, the vaccine reduces severe illnesses and complications by up to 60%, and deaths by 80%.
Can’t be bothered engaging with you anymore……… you are a fucking dunce.
derrrh…well i guess it is important that you believe in what you do….so good on you! ….pleased you are not my doctor though…smile
btw…asked the kids if they wanted the meningitis vaccine (x3)at school and after much discussion of the pros and cons and an intensive indoctrination about why they should have it at school ……they said “No bloody way!”
…their fate is in their hands…but at least they know not to share drinks and be careful about others saliva …and watch out for the signs of meningitis
I”m also pleased I’m not your Doctor.
Sorry, but that’s not what the meta-analysis from the Cochrane collaboration concluded.
And that’s the top tier of evidence.
Cochrane only have one meta-analysis on an issue? That’s gotta be a record. Normally they swamp lit searches with dozens or hundreds.
Got a citation for it?
“Can’t be bothered engaging with you anymore……… you are a fucking dunce.”
Yes amen to that.
SSLands, fucking Dunce isn’t quite the epithet i would ascribe to you,functional idiot seems more ‘you’…
i try not to engage with you srylands..yu are sooooo far offff my radaaaarr….am surprised i even register with you…lol
“there is nothing like a good flu to clear your system out and prime you up”
You sound like a witch doctor. That is complete bullshit.
Sometimes, getting sick is actually good for you.
BUt Srylands doesn’t see any profit in that, take a pill CV. Now THAT makes sense to him and his pharmaceutical share holding.
+1000…CV you really do make a lot of sense!…way more sense than northshoredoc or McFlock!….You should be a doctor…actually you are one, being a chiropractor
I have a lot of time for Chinese medicine….based on energy lines …i dislocated my elbow once and it was not diagnosed by the doctors using hospital xrays…they just stuffed me full of steroids for the pain and swelling…it was only a Chinese Medical Practitioner who diagnosed the problem several years later and moved the bone back into place using acupuncture using
Wait until H7N5 gets around to you SSLands, heh, heh, heh, guaranteed to fix what ails you, heh, heh, heh…
lol
had swine flu a few years back (and believe me – it was really bad) – havent had so much as a cold for over 4 years
Ok – thats not scientific – but the idea that really bad flus improve a society’s immune system isnt that silly
I wonder how the body could become immune to anti biotics??? Oh that’s right, over prescribing and ingestion.
More is definitely not better.
yes I think it did too ….and yup it was bad….but i just lay in bed for a few days and drank lots of water….the swiney thing left me and i had a new lease of life
framu, have you had a blood test in the time you have been flu free…
lol
More on measles vaccinations
…seems like the vaccine is not as safe or as effective as northshoredoc makes out
( who really is the dunce here?)
…in fact there are quite a few risks…i actually think that doctors and governments beholden ( financially?…nice wee golden handshakes?) to multi million dollar drug companies should be held accountable for vaccine mishaps , especially if parents are pressurised and guilt tripped into vaccinating their children against their will …..and it is shown that children were adversely affected
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/09/04/measles-vaccine-kills-infants.aspx
http://www.naturalmedicine.net.nz/vaccination/whats-worse-measles-or-the-vaccine/
“who really is the dunce here?”
You apparently – those links have left no doubt of your idiocy.
“I find it strange that you say you don’t regret getting Measles, mumps and chickenpox”
……nuh …….because I am not a wussy..and no one at the time thought it was a big deal getting measles , mumps and chickenpox( soon you will be wanting to immunise people for the common cold)
…….my parents and grandparents and great grandparents and great great grandparents were not immunised for measles , mumps and chickenpox……they survived ok and in good health through to their 70 s( the smoker), 80s( another smoker ) and 90s( a nonsmoker)
…sure measles mumps and chickenpox are unpleasant at the time …and sure i would regret it if i had serious complications….but i would also regret it even more if i or my children had serious complications from vaccines forced on us by silly doctors who want their patients to be co-dependent and compliant …rather than collegial and responsible for their own health decisions
ah, the pro-smacking gambit.
Fuck, I was in low single digits when I got chicken pox, still have memories of it.
nup…i have never been a smacker…just a shouter
…yup i remember sharing a double bed with my sister who also had chicken pox ….”kick me , punch me , i dont care”….still remember the ditty….it forged an unbreakable link between us….still remember the horrible little brat i shared chickenpox with….and we still laugh
….also remember measles and my temperature going sky high and my Mother cooling me down with cold water bottles….and mumps , the horrible monster swollen one side of the face
…all the kids i know survived these things ok
yes, and many siblings beaten by their parents had a closer relationship with each other because of it, too.
@ McFlock…you are a sensitive wee sausage, who would have thought
….and it was my sister kicking and pinching me while she had chickenpox and we shared a bed because she couldnt stand me or the chickenpox …not my parents, just in case you got that wrong…..our parents were very solicitous when we were ill
go form a support group with colin craig
@ McFlock…i reckon you are more like Colin Craig ….because you are so bloody sure that yu are right and you know what is best for everyone’s kids ! ….Colin would not like me at all
Unlike you and colin craig, I have post-vaccination infection rates to back up my position.
“who is to say that if you dont get a natural immunity to one virus eg measles ,either by contracting it or getting immunity via your parents…”
I say it because there is zero evidence for such an immunity pass on. Fuck this is the problem with the anti vaccine brigade. They are anti science and anti reason. Which I guess extends to supporting policies like NZ Power.
Slands
Whew,.. for a moment there I actually found myself agreeing with something that you’d typed. But then you reawakened my sense of contempt with your spurious “NZ Power” reference.
I am strongly in favour of; vaccines (Basupial is fully up to date on his jabs), science, reason, and the Green/ Labour proposed electricity purchasing arrangement that will be instituted when they form the next government of Aotearoa.
Fuck this is the problem with the anti-climate change brigade. They are anti science and anti reason.
FIFY
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1905885/
“In case reports or case series, more than 200 patients were suspected to have been seriously harmed. The most common serious adverse effects were due to vertebral artery dissections. The two prospective reports suggested that relatively mild adverse effects occur in 30% to 61% of all patients. The case-control studies suggested a causal relationship between spinal manipulation and the adverse effect. The survey data indicated that even serious adverse effects are rarely reported in the medical literature
I will stick to vaccination, which, as decades of evidence shows, has massive benefits and very few adverse effects. thanks.
And refusing to vaccinate for the normal childhood diseases is not only child abuse, but is getting a free ride on the backs of vaccinated children and stops us for eradicating that disease altogether. Eradication would mean that we would not even have to subject children to the slight risk of continued vaccination against that disease. As we have done with small pox and polio.
With all the evidence out there for the failure of neo-liberal economics, Srylands.
As convincing and total as the evidence that vaccination works………………..
Though I am always amazed by how people can follow the evidence, which is all around them, in one thing and totally discount it in another.
A reality disconnect.
no you are wrong there …some scientists say exactly that !
Frankly it wasn’t like that when I was young and we used to catch all this stuff. I’d have noticed if 10% of the school was in hospital not the 0% of reality. Are the vaccines making the disease harsher?
“I’d have noticed if 10% of the school was in hospital not the 0% of reality”
Maybe they hospitalise more these days. I know that when I had measles in the ’60s I spent a week very,very ill. I had the local GP making home visits everyday. I’m quite sure that these days I would have been hospitalised instead of having the GP visits.
…we are all being indoctrinated that we need vaccines for everything….it is after-all a multi-billion dollar, multi-national business
you know and i know how bad measles was when we were kids…but they would like to tell us it was a hell of a lot worse than what we remember…and that many of our school mates succumbed dreadfully ….well sorry they didnt!….and the jury is still out on the long term effects of vaccines ….and it seems as if the side effects are not even properly catelogued!
…and i would like to know how much these pro-vaccine zealot doctors get for every kid they jab ( just to see how much they really do love our babies and kiddies)
No we cant say dumb ass parents, it has to be blamed on poverty.
I’m pretty sure the anti-immunisation types are often middle class.
Compliance with vaccination, or a religious symbol of good parenting.
Vaccination works, as much as climate change deniers are morons, so are vaccination deniers. In both cases the science is irrefutable. http://www.drwile.com/lnkpages/render.asp?vac_effective
So you rate all vaccinations as equal in value and importance? You dismiss all proven cases of vaccination toxicity and ineffectiveness as just too bad?
Would you even spend on pharma corporates millions in tax payers money to vaccinate people who are already immune to a disease, in order to prove your faith in vaccinations?
How would you know they’re immune?
Having no idea if a patient is immune before the vaccination, how would you know that the vaccination is even indicated? And after receiving the vaccination how would you know if they are immune afterwards i.e. if the drug accomplished any useful change in immune function at all?
And the question remains – in an instance like the MeNZ B vaccination – why would you spend millions of tax payer dollars in order to give the drug to many tens of thousands of youths who were already immune to the disease (due to previous pathogenic exposure, being asymptomatic carriers etc)?
Sigh …….
“Having no idea if a patient is immune before the vaccination, how would you know that the vaccination is even indicated?”
Most but not all immunisation is undertaken from a young age prior to exposure so as to prevent serious consequences if one is exposed and decrease the incidence of the infectious agent in circulation.
“And after receiving the vaccination how would you know if they are immune afterwards i.e. if the drug accomplished any useful change in immune function at all?”
All products are registered by Medsafe dependant upon demonstrating acceptable immunogenicity. (i.e clinical trials showing that they work must be produced before they are registered and available).
“And the question remains – in an instance like the MeNZ B vaccination – why would you spend millions of tax payer dollars in order to give the drug to many tens of thousands of youths who were already immune to the disease (due to previous pathogenic exposure, being asymptomatic carriers etc)?”
The MoH has produced this useful information sheet which covers their reasoning.
https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/publications/16meningococcalinvdisease.pdf
Thanks.
Do doctors get paid (directly or indirectly) for each immunization they do?
Not sure what you’re getting at Marty but General practices get paid by the MoH for delivering vaccinations as per the NZ schedule and for influenza vaccinations during the influenza vaccination season.
MM yes there is money in it. More shots given, more money given.
Jesus christ I can now see the reasoning behind your views on economic policy.
H7N5 SSLands, remember it, your loose sphincter will certainly gain a modicum of tightness when that little beauty sneaks into your nasal passage…
Not sure whether you are pretending to care about child health now Shitlands, or whether your main concern is for pharma corp profits. I admit that it could be both simultaneously.
“Not sure whether you are pretending to care about child health ”
It is my job to care about child health! Unlike you I don’t throw away idiotic point scoring foul mouthed remarks about immunisation. Your views on immunisation suddenly makes it all clear. I can see how your mind works.
lol
SSLands, the mindless claiming to know how the mind works, now that’s a first…
” Unlike you I don’t throw away idiotic point scoring foul mouthed remarks about immunisation.”
yeah you do – i can count at least two unrelated wise cracks from you in this thread alone
it’s your job? You sell vaccinations to GP’s?
No I dismiss nothing. I view scientific research and peer reviewed evidence as the best guideline for medical prevention and intervention. What I don’t buy is that if 1 in 2000 has a mild adverse reaction and 1 in 100,000 will have a serious reaction, that that justifies the hysteria it seems to invoke in some. Perhaps ask African poverty stricken mothers who walk miles to get their children vaccinated whether it’s worthwhile. I don’t think the life of a child should be sacrificed as you seem to, to prevent corporate involvement. It’s not a faith it is scientific fact that vaccination saves children’s lives, ignorance doesn’t change that. Faith is believing in homeopathy or crystals, reiki, or other quackery practised by frauds who prey on easily manipulated people. I’ve seen the result of a child getting a disease they should have been vaccinated against, and it’s horrific.
Use the fear tactic if you like to get people on side, its a usual approach.
BTW I have no opinion on child health and poverty issues in Africa, or how they might somehow relate to first world NZ.
You do know that traditional healing arts were around long before conventional allopathic medicine was bleeding patients to death and prescribing mercury and arsenic as the ‘state of the art’, and will probably be around long after conventional allopathic medicine has long gone?
In fact, the term “quackery” was historically applied to conventional western medicine in its early and very harmful days.
“You do know that traditional healing arts were around long before conventional allopathic medicine was bleeding patients to death and prescribing mercury and arsenic as the ‘state of the art’, and will probably be around long after conventional allopathic medicine has long gone?”
And how well did they work in preventing the infectious diseases and their sequelae that we’ve been discussing above ? Better or worse than immunisation when and where available ?
Well, what I know is that in your list, none is as good as clean running water, flushing toilets, and having sufficient calories and protein in the diet, thanks.
Clean running water, flushing toilets, and having sufficient calories and protein in the diet are all very important for public health, however, MMR and Hep B vaccination will protect you against their respective targets far better than any of those things you list if you come into direct contact with the respective diseases.
Where the fear tactic ? Sadly, this is much like your attitude to most things. You’re more concerned about where the treatment comes from, not the treatment itself. You do the children of New Zealand a grave injustice for promoting such unscientific twaddle. It’s dangerous for people like you to promote the life endangering crap that you do.
The Africa example was to perhaps show that if you don’t value insuring children’s lives, others who are much less fortunate do. I don’t know if you’re a parent, I am and you don’t strike me as a stupid man, so I would be astounded if you didn’t vaccinate your children when it’s freely available and prevents the suffering of a child.
Your astonishment is not my concern.
I have a simple rule of thumb.
If any vaccination has a less than 1 in 10,000 chance of providing a direct benefit to a child, parents should be clearly informed so that they can make a treatment choice appropriate for their family.
Of course that is unless you think that their treatment choice should be made by you, for them, instead.
@CV
Yes, because vaccination’s all about “meeeeeeeeeee”.
If I turn a wee bit totalitarian when faced with criminal stupidity, you go all neolib.
The actual low level of individual benefit is only a tiny part of the issue.
A belief that parents need to be informed if a vaccination has a less than 1:10,000 chance of producing direct individual benefit is far more central.
Such a belief requires an appreciation of the necessity for informed consent during the course of medical treatment. It recognises that information such as the likelihood of a drug providing any clinical benefit is a direct and important input into that informed consent process.
They also need to be informed that the 1 chance might be death, too. Lots of gloopy pics, just to “inform”, of course.
The other point about your 1 in 10k of direct personal benefit line is that it refers to the current risk in a highly-vaccinated environment.
You’d need to tweak it for the lower vaccine uptake if it’s phrased that way, otherwise you’re misleading the parents as the actual risk would be significantly higher. E.g. in the swansea area, 644 cases occurred in the 2013 outbreak in a population of 300k.
That’s 1 in 500, assuming a zero percent vaccination rate. You’re out by at least a factor of 20. If the vaccination rate was 70%, you’re up to 3% direct personal benefit. So much for “informed” by 1 in 10,000.
“You know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to work? Medicine.”
Blue – Does your definition of quakery include an alternative modality like Traditional Chinese Medicine? You have fallen on anecdote so I will as well. I was cured from a debilitating condition by TCM. And it can’t be due to a high quality bedside manner, which is often used to explain alternative medicine success, because I could hardly understand a word the two practitioners were saying. The sad thing is though the cost of the herbs is prohibitive for many people.
No because there are many peer reviewed papers that support TCM as a method of relieving minor symptomatic illness. It’s efficacy is lower from what I’ve read. There are few that support is as a lone treatment however. Vaccination using TCM I’m not familiar with.
I believe the concept of vaccination is part of TCM, around curing like with like, but not the western model of injecting into the bloodstream.
Should add I tried conventional medicine before TCM.
I’m a sceptic about all healing claims, conventional and alternative.
Anyone who still believes in the inherent superiority of the evidence based pharmaceutical paradigm should read Ben Goldacre’s book Bad Pharma. And the author is not a friend of alternative medicine.
Anti-inflammatory drug Vioxx was evidence based in its day – and that was only 10 years ago – and it killed thousands. Lucky Pharmac never funded that or its use here would have been much more widespread and thus far greater harm.
There is a role for instinct and anecdote in healthcare. Following the evidence based fashions of the day can be fatal.
“Anyone who still believes in the inherent superiority of the evidence based pharmaceutical paradigm should read Ben Goldacre’s book Bad Pharma.”
Absolutely.
Alongside his previous book “Bad Medicine”.
Vioxx is an interesting case – it was compared against other similar anti-inflammatory drugs, not against no anti-inflammatories, and the risk profile was not that different to the other anti-inflammatories. Turns out that no-one knew the other anti-inflammatories have heart risks as well …
ER
Agree 100%
CV +100
…how about parents who have time to think…and discuss and research…and also live in good conditions for their children.
….and yes if you live in an overcrowded poverty stricken part of town ….where hygene is problematic, there are damp conditions, poor food , polluted water, children unable to get out and run free in the fresh air and sunshine …you would be wise to get your children immunised
In doesn’t matter where you live in town if you are not vaccinated for Measles and haven’t yet had it you have an extremely high chance of developing the disease when you come into contact with an infectious carrier.
It is a very very nasty infectious disease with serious morbidity and mortality associated with it.
The only persons who have a valid reason not to be vaccinated are those who are pregnant (although they should have been vaccinated as children) and those with a record/strong suspicion of severe allergy and those who have an immunosuppressive condition.
Anyone else who chooses not to immunise their children puts both their children and others at risk and is very foolish.
and if you send your kids to kindy with remuera idiots. Not all the measles cases are in poor areas
Current Auckland cases include kids at Auckland Grammar and Westlake Boys. Decile 9/10 doesn’t protect against stupidity.
yes because we can afford the time to research…and the time to look after our children when they are ill ….and we know our children are generally healthy because they live in good conditions
“anti-immunisation types” only want choice for themselves and everyone else…if i had a sick child in damp cold house , was under stress and ill myself ..knew I could not look after the child well ……i would probably choose immunisation for the child…but this is no reason to blanketly force immunisation on everyone else
….the health industry is littered with mistakes and drugs which have been worse than the complaint ( a previous doctor told me so)…so in the end it is the right of every parent to decide and as their children get older let them decide ….a bit like religion
Not all all… many dumbarses aren’t poor, they vote National.
russell brand gives a master-class in how to deal with a dickwad-interviewer..
http://metro.co.uk/2014/02/15/russell-brand-v-jon-snow-interview-pair-clash-on-channel-4-over-drugs-4305646/
phillip ure..
phillip ure …in case you are interested…Kathryn Ryan does an interview and talks about heroin and its effect on USA culture
10:05 Feature: Eric Schneider – Author of Smack: Heroin and the American City
@ chooky..chrs 4 the heads-up..
..i’ll give it a listen..
..phillip ure..
basically he is arguing what i argue..
..that all drug-addiction (heroin included..)..is a medical-issue..
..not a justice-issue..
..and how methadone both sucks and blows..is harder to kick than heroin..
..and i repeat my (current) nz-shocker about all this..
..currently people are approaching our drug services for help..
..with methamphetamine..
..and they are being put on methadone..
..given a methadone life-sentence..
..this is utter fucken madness..
(and the real ‘sick’ bit..?..they use ‘harm minimisation’ as the reason for giving these people life-long addictions to methadone..)
..phillip ure..
“.with methamphetamine…and they are being put on methadone..”
Citation?
‘citation’..?
..well..they were doing it in northland..
..until a friend of mine there found out – and threatened to go to the media about it..
..then they stopped there..
..i suggest you ask the various health boards around the country..
..for yr ‘citations’..
..phillip ure..
So no citations then?
would you like my friend to swear an affidavit..?
..he will..
..but you just clearly don’t care about the point made..do you..?
..you’d rather dance on the head of that fucken ‘citation-demand’-pin..wouldn’t you..?
..so you think it is ok that methadone is given to people asking for help with meth..?
..which is it..?
phillip ure..
“..but you just clearly don’t care about the point made..do you..?”
The point relies on an unsubstantiated and questionable assertion that meth addicts are being treated with drugs designed for opiate addicts.
“so you think it is ok that methadone is given to people asking for help with meth..?”
No I don’t but I don’t believe you when you say people are.
yeah..we have had 50 nz’ers die from (preventible) overdoses over the last couple of yrs..
..let’s just keep on doing what we always have done..
..it’s only 50 (mainly young) people dying from preventible/accidental overdoses every couple of yrs..eh..?
..and i mean..they are only dirty/filthy/stinking junkies..aren’t they..?
..why even fucken care about them..?..eh..?
..what’s that..?..phillip hoffman..?
..oh..!..that was a tragedy..!
..wasn’t it..?
..phillip ure..
the fact is that no politician..from any party..
..gives a flying fuck about those 50 preventible/accidental-deaths every couple of years..
..nor about speed-heads being given a life-sentence of methadone-addiction..
..none of them..plan/argue to do anything about it..
..i mean..they won’t even talk about fucken cannabis..!
..in a sane/logical manner..
..and a fucken pox on all of them..
..for that..
..phillip ure..
Tsk tsk Phillis… your abuse of someone asking for proof of an unsubstantiated assertion you have made is childish to say the least…
@ phil ure… yes all very interesting…the more one knows about this, the better one can understand the issues for treatment etc
I’ve mentioned it on a previous comment. No citation needed I would have thought when one has a 2 o3 degree separation from those being ‘dosed’!
Be it Northland, be it Christchurch, be it Paraparaumu.
Yes, ‘P’ addicts are being put on the methadone programme – whereupon quite a few ‘divert’ their methadone and go and score. (All in the name of so-called ‘harm reduction’).
As is usually the case tho’ – the few fuck it up for the many.
Now I’m aware of many on here averse to PU’s sanctimonium and preaching, but the guy is actually correct – ESPECIALLY as to the madness that’s now become the norm in the way we treat addicts.
We’re losing a generation – but that’s cool …. we’ll just make them part of the ‘unpeople’ and move on. After all, there are far more respectable addictions than being a crack head junkie – like maybe being a piss-head or a Sky City attendee.
TVNZ a hot bed for Labour activists! Lol. Orwell, take another turn.
No no its ok, its not a big deal, nothing more to see here, move along etc etc
It isn’t really a big deal. More a moment of stupidity and less a moment Machiavelli
Oh I agree its stupidity all right
PR
Stupidity is your area of expertise.
well i look forward to your incandescant outrage when some bigger corruption rears its head
theres even been plenty of examples over the last 5 years
you mean like Key lying about knowing of Dotcom, or saying TVNZ was selling land to SkyCity when it wasn’t or…
see BLiP’s list
When reading about the confirmation of the royal visit, – vented by putting pen to paper and writing to the Queen and the Duke & Duchess about the timing of their visit in relation to the election.
Received prompt replies from Buckingham Palace, and whoever writes for the Duke & Duchess.
Today, received a letter from the Executive Council Chambers – advising that “close proximity” to an election is taken to mean the pre-election period of approximately three months before polling day.
Also, advised that that “members of the Royal Family have visited New Zealand in an election year on 14 occasions since 1954, including when The Queen visited in February 2002. The election that year was in July.”
Despite the urge, I will not reply that circumspection is not a characteristic of our current PM. With our current media and Prime Minister, I am expecting a lot of cringeworthy reports during the visit.
Molly, pity they didn’t list which years these royal jaunts down under occurred, we could then have a look to see which Party was in power and how low they were in the public’s estimation…
I’m surmising too that Helen Clark didn’t have much choice in whether or not to “invite” the Queen in 2002 – as it was her 50th Jubilee and she was doing her commonwealth tour that year.
And visit Hansard Feb 13th 2002 for an understanding of how little she intended to use it for political advantage.
Was National expecting complaints so prepared a statement for them?
Don’t know. But really didn’t expect much more than the usual, “Thanks for your letter, your concerns have been noted” – which was the case from the UK, within two weeks.
Sent the letters off with no expectation of change. Which was met. But the act of writing was therapeutic for me, and worked marginally.
national has set up an intimidatory regime.
the hepatitis foundation is conducting unauthorised longitudinal studies and refusing access unless personal data is supplied.
what next.
Despite the frequent condemnation of the role of poorly contained cattle farm shit in fouling our rivers, there is another environmental risk you really see addressed – fire:
”One of the big problems was cow manure – we thought we had the fire out and then dry cow manure would set alight and roll. It’s quite flammable when it’s dry and a real bugger to get out,” [Omakau Deputy Chief Fire Officer Lloyd Harris] said.
http://www.odt.co.nz/regions/central-otago/292013/blazing-cow-manure-adds-fuel-paddock-fire
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9732785/Cunliffe-thinks-twice-on-photo
Yes control the message at all cost
Yup Labour and National, cut from the same cloth…
“Curd, 23, who has been working at the Daily News for three months, said Cunliffe had been very polite and hadn’t bullied her in any way.”
He politely asked her to delete a photo that he had posed for but then thought was a bit naff. Oh the diabolical evil.
John key made the following statement today about supermarkets and suppliers….
“‘‘Everyone accepts that when it comes to small suppliers and dominant supermarkets, there’s a power imbalance, and I suspect when the inquiry takes place there will be suppliers that say that they feel the pressure of that power imbalance. Whether that actually marries up to what Mr Jones is saying is quite a different issue.’’…
“Key told reporters said that New Zealand food producers reported to him that the supermarkets drove ‘‘hard bargains’’ but he believed that ‘‘by and large’’ this benefited consumers through lower prices, and nothing untoward had been drawn to his attention. ”
Now, think about individual employment contracts John.
Sports journalists – you have got to love ’em.
Apparently Martin Crowe was commenting on McCullum’s current innings in Wellington. The reporter appears to believe that Martin said there is an abundance of drunken w#nkers at the Basin.
“They almost felt a bit sad that they took my wicket and so I’m sure that the Indian team, while they won’t be dishing up full tossers, I think deep down they’ll be wanting him to get there.”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11204649
(and while we’re at it “that’s probably a-whole-nother story” –
anyone notice how that one is creeping into the journalists’ lexicon
along with “th’ smorning”?
Spect the tossers might be hard to dish as as they are rather fluid logie97.
Some sports journalists would have managed to split that quote into 3 paragraphs – be grateful!
Shane Taurima anybody?
I have to laugh, it really has not been a good week for Labour.
Oh well, nothing better to do than go and do some work on my $2.5 million “do up”
Thanks for your deep political insight there Bruv.
So what are you really doing? waterblasting the neighbours mansion deck or something.
nothing better to do than go and do some work on my $2.5 million “do up”
Easy followup questions:
Mr Cunliffe, what renovations have been performed as part of the “do-up”?
Mr Cunliffe, how much did those renovations cost?
Mr Cunliffe, your Herne Bay property was purchased for 2.5 million; how much is it worth now?
Mr Cunliffe, how much tax have you avoided by placing title to the house in a Trust?
How is any of that relevant to political debate?
It’s not. Yet Cunliffe keeps making it an issue by doing dumb shit like this.
http://www.3news.co.nz/Cunliffe-hiding-25M-mansion-from-voters–Key/tabid/1607/articleID/332573/Default.aspx
He’s just handing this stuff to Key on a plate, and Key is more than happy to take advantage of it. And he does so with such joy that the media can’t help but cover it.
Does Cunliffe have a Chief of Staff and a Press Secretary? You know, like a real leader of a major political party would?
Living in a 10 million dollar Parnell pad should have been a WEAKNESS for Key, but Cunliffe’s dumbshit display has immunised him against criticism. Key now gets to say positive things like “I’m proud of where I live” YAY ASPIRATIONAL LEADER and ask why Cunliffe is trying to hide his residential address from his constituents in New Lynn.
wow..!..isn’t that tv3 report from o’brien a totally crap excuse –
for anything coming within a fucken country-mile/bulls’-roar of ‘journalism’…?
..hang yr head..!..hack..!
..phillip ure..
What is your problem? Being stupid?
It wasn’t hidden. Where he lives has been known for as long as I’ve been aware of David Cunliffe. It has always been in the public domain where and what the property is. It is listed in the parliamentary interests.
Basically Paddy Gower is a simpering moron whenever he thinks that there is a story and he only cares how it sounds rather than actual facts. It appears that you have the same issues.
Of course it’s not hidden, if it were the media wouldn’t have been able to piss itself laughing with stories about how poor David Cunliffe was forced to buy a 2.5 million dollar home in Auckland’s most expensive suburb because he wanted to shorten his inner-city corporate-lawyer wife’s commute to work, whatta guy, boy that’s some traditional Labour shit right there.
Any time Cunliffe – or Labour at large – brings up Key’s Parnell mansion now it’s an easy boundary for Key. He’ll just whack it every time and the media will cover it, because Labour can’t communicate for shit and it’s entertaining to watch Key smack these easy balls.
Just take the video linked above; what genius decided it would be a good idea for Cunliffe to criticise Key’s affluent lifestyle while standing in front of a sign saying “Fitzroy Yachts”? Are custom-built luxury superyachts a big thing for Labour voters this year? Did no-one think to say “Hey David Cunliffe, while you’re on the back foot defending your waterfront multimilliondollar house in the most expensive suburb on the edge of Auckland Harbour, maybe yachts isn’t a word you want displayed right behind you?”
Not really sure why the righties are so obsessed with how much money someone has.
A way of keeping score amongst themselves, I guess.
envy i guess (or fear)
Is that why Key hates Kim Dotcom? Cos he has more money than Key?
Incredibly offensive filthy rich old white dude that dies with the most toys and loot wins!
This is the sociopathy of it. It comes down to a game of relative wealth and score keeping. If you have $10M net worth you feel inadequate next to the guy with $100M net worth. Who feels inadequate next to the guy with $1B net worth. And then you have all these billionaires jostling around for each other for pole position, like fighting Titans not caring (or even noticing) the devastation they leave in their wake.
Who needs morality and values and more? An 8 figure net worth is all the justification these people ever need to show that they are superior humans and morally in the right.
+1 Tiger Mountain
+1 CV
It takes their minds off their small penises.
“Of course it’s not hidden”
yet your claiming it is?
ever thought that what the media says or what john key says are utterly different to what david cunliffe says?
yet your claiming it is?
Groan.
With this dumbshit tactic Cunliffe has enabled Key to respond, grinning from ear to ear, with things like
“I live in Parnell and I’m proud of it. That member lives in Herne Bay, he just doesn’t want his supporters to know he does!”
Key comes out of this looking great, Cunliffe comes out of it looking like the two-faced “say one thing, do another” doubletalker he’s often labelled. There was no way this retarded “oh he’s a millionaire with a fancy house” schtick from Cunliffe was ever going to work.
Which brings me back to the bigger point: why was there nobody at Cunliffe’s elbow to tell him that? Why is he time after time walking straight into these fucking potholes? Why is Labour so chronically bad at this stuff?
Where does that bit come from? Everyone who cares where he lives already knows, and Cunliffe’s discussed it publicly.
Plus, shouldn’t John Key live in his electorate, like National agitators insist Cunliffe should?
That was Key’s response to Cunliffe’s dumbshit question in Parliament, and everyone laughed as the ball sailed over Cunliffe’s head to the boundary.
Fine, but it’s not exactly true, is it?
Since when has literal truthfulness been a requirement of scoring points at question time?
“Why is Labour so chronically bad at this stuff?”
well – yeah – i agree with you there
“..his inner-city corporate-lawyer wife’s..”
my understanding is that cunnliffes’ wife is an environmental-lawyer..
..(but don’t let that spoil yr ‘story’..eh..?..)
(tho’..i must admit..i had that same thought about that fitzroy yachts sign..)
..phillip ure..
my understanding is that cunnliffes’ wife is an environmental-lawyer..
..(but don’t let that spoil yr ‘story’..eh..?..)
You’re right, that doesn’t sound corporate AT ALL.
open season on spouses and kids…
shall I tell my stories about a prominent nat minister,s child (rhetorical).
did i tell you the one about the national party cabinet ministers’ child i (and another) once hauled back from a heroin overdose..?
..no..?
(and sorry..!..no ‘citation’..eh..?
..you really had to be there..eh..?)
..phillip ure..
My understanding is Cunny’s wife has worked for that nasty Fonterra and Mining companies. You have been listening to his spin and lies about why he has a multi million dollar mansion in the most expensive suburb in Auckland.
Lawyers work for and advise clients. That is their job. They frequently advise clients why they should not do something or why they should change what they are doing to conform with the law.
Environmental lawyers like the wife of David Cunliffe in particular are usually employed to help companies conform to laws like the RMA and other environmental laws. They tend to be paid well for this role because it is skilled task and takes a pile of experience to get good at.
An ex was an environmental lawyer so I have seen it close at hand (although not for several decades).
Basically you’re a stupid and rather ignorant little creep who clearly is too lazy for most tasks, including finding out who you are talking about.
Playing the man, not the ball, naki.
Typical rwnj with no actual worthwhile policies for ordinary NZers.
So you attack the person instead.
Obnoxious.
Cool it SHG (definitely not Colonial Viper.) You don’t have to get so excited about drawing our attention to faults in Cunliffe’s presentation because you are concerned that the government jabberwockies will notice. You have done the work for them!So lay off will you. Are you right wing, or just naive Labour?
What is naive Labour? And why would naive Labour peeps be overly concerned with presentational faults?
E Ro.tina
Because they are naive, and don’t win elections in that stage of their labour to metamorphosis.
“Oh well, nothing better to do than go and do some work on my $2.5 million “do up”
That might explain why Cunny thinks people who earn $149k need welfare
Very good questions SHG
speaking of good questions… did you pay that wager?
@ framu..what wager..?
phillip ure..
At Public Address Mark Harris has written a very compelling rebuttal of the Smellie “defence” of the ongoing TTP. Read it and be very very afraid. For this bit at the end is indicative, “Other Parliaments will indeed be able to scrutinise the detail – ours will not. For Smellie not to understand this vital point is, quite simply, astounding.”
TPP: Error Correction
by Mark Harris
On Friday, Stuff published an opinion piece about the Trans Pacific Partnership by Pattrick Smellie headed Ten things TPP critics do not want you to grasp. I was appalled by it it and felt it warranted a rebuttal. This is that rebuttal.
1.The secrecy surrounding TPP negotiations is typical of any such exercise.
While bilateral trade agreements are generally held quietly between the negotiating teams, multi-lateral agreements that will impact the ……
http://publicaddress.net/speaker/tpp-error-correction/
Boohoo Bennett you reap wot you sow
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9734475/Taurima-was-unfair-to-me-Bennett
She doesn’t seem to have a problem having her picture taken with Cameron “I fucking hate Maori” Slater though.
My apologies, I got that quote wrong. It’s more like this:
http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2010/06/maori-must-be-thick/
A Google search for “maori” within whaleoil.co.nz is quite illuminating though.
2c says she doesn’t give a shit about how she was treated in the interview.
But now she gets to SAY she did, and National is nicely immunised against criticism that it gets biased coverage from TVNZ. Hell, it’s not like there was a National candidate interviewing Labour politicians and organising National fundraisers at TVNZ via the TVNZ email network.
Now in the name of impartiality TVNZ will be bending over backwards to make sure that Labour doesn’t get overly favourable coverage.
National gets to point to this fuckup as another reason why having a State-funded broadcaster is untenable, and chalks up another point in favour of privatisation.
So basically this whole Taurima affair is a win-win for National.
”National gets to point to this fuckup as another reason why having a State-funded broadcaster is untenable, and chalks up another point in favour of privatisation.”
The ‘state-funded broadcaster’ returned a dividend of $11.3 million in the last financial year, off an after-tax profit of $14.2 million.
“He also said other state-owned assets such as TVNZ and NZ Post, had proven not to be good long-term investments to hold on to. ”
John Key October 2010
Profitability has little to do with whether they sell anyway, just look at the powercos. If they did, it would probably be to lessen the chance of a future government having access to infrastructure to create a proper public broadcaster.
Not much pressure from private sector to sell as Sky seems pretty happy with the current configuration.
what do u mean by “Not much pressure from private sector to sell as Sky seems pretty happy with the current configuration.””?
In terms of private interests lobbying for the asset to be sold, which in the NZ TV industry means Sky.
Sky has done well out of TVNZ, and is not likely to agitate for major change. Just look at the Heartland TV deal. Those programmes were made when TVNZ was a public broadcaster, and now they’re behind a paywall.
Heard of email Tracey. That might explain why NZ Post is not a good long term investment. Not much growth there.
Yep
Maybe she shouldn’t say it too loud in case people start on about being interviewed unfairly by the ex-Wairarapa candidate
bennet:.,”tauwima was vewwy vewwy nasty to me..!”
phillip ure..
Who’s a “sensitive wee sausage” then ?
bennett:..that nice lady who does q&a is much much nicer to me..
..than that nasty tauwima was…
..she never asks me any hard/nasty qwestions..
..she is my kind of journalist..!
..phillip ure..
risiildowgtn
😎
her leader doesnt believe there was any bias.
does that mean she is being sensitive… OR
Strategy is for key to seem all fair and blase while others stoop?
Hes learnt from Helen Clark well
Ah, the two wrongs make a right stance.
Nope its the Helen Clark did it well so John Keys following on from that, I admit its not as catch but more applicable
Yes, your admiration of Ms Clark is plain for all to see.
I admire her for a lot things, I don’t agree with her on a lot of things as well. She knew how to play the media, use others to do her dirty work, control a caucus etc etc she was (is) a very good politician
All things Keys probably learnt from her
“She knew how to play the media, use others to do her dirty work, control a caucus etc etc she was (is) a very good politician”
is that your criteria?
Do you think HCs a very good politician?
You’re assuming that all the traits you list are necessary and sufficient to be a “good politician”.
John Key is able at most of those tasks, but I think he rests largely on the support of a close team, and he’s certainly not “good” in the ethical sense of the word.
God she is not only a snide trollope, but a whiny cow too.
You know what ‘D’ stands for in this case Paula? Don’t. Give. A. Fuck.
Bloody hell it’s the whole lot of them Judith Collins et al that have been so miserably treated…
Nice wedding photos of her and Whytey
If anyone replies to one of my comments and I don’t respond, it is because I haven’t time to scan the comments queue and don’t want my emails stuffed with non-personal ones. I check my archives, and if you want a reply put grey or I think gw and that will show up and I’ll get back to you. This is just so you don’t think I’m not interested in what most of you have to say, because I am. But have to limit my time on the blog to get other things done.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9732614/Today-in-politics-Tuesday-February-18
More senior staffers deserting the ship…not looking good for cunners
All this under a party leader who doesn’t even have a Chief of Staff at the moment – the Leader’s office has had what – 5 chiefs of staff in the space of 14 months?
Nobody wants to be IN that seat when the music stops.
Ah, the halcyon days of H2…
As much as there was to dislike about H1 and H2 (especially for a National voter) they were very, very good at running a party
q-time commentary..
http://whoar.co.nz/2014/new-zealand-parliament-list-of-questions-for-oral-answer-tuesday-18-february-2014/
(excerpt:..)
..(john banks is in foss-shot…fighting against going on the nod..)
phillip ure..
Actually the intensity of Trevor Mallads questioning of Peter Dunne had Peter nearly in tears I thought. Broken voice/stumbling. And he still twists and turns to avoid having to give the House an answer to the question, “Will he say to the House that No he did not leak the report.”
And most disturbing was Judith Collins wearing a jacket which was white on one side and black on the other. Its how she sees things I suppose. Either black or white.
i like how mallard has done a species-reversal..
..as in the duck hunting the dunne…
..and i agree re yr call on dunnes’ trembling upper-lip..
..i wonder how dunne will bear up tomorrow..and the next day..?
..it’s a long way to the election..eh..?
..i reckon that upper-lip will ‘break’…
..phillip ure..
Can someone leak where collins got/bought? that jacket? And what was the retail price?
Tomorrow people is creationist SF.
Oh, and what gives with asteroids, they don’t need to be on collision with Earth, they can also hit Earth if they fly to close to the Moon in a slingshot. We should worry about the Moon getting hit too.
Okay, given the Japanese Earthquake, caused a Tsunami that took out a half dozen nuclear power plants. Where the boffins thought they’d built the sea defenses high enough. How about then, and Asteroid, near miss of Earth, and on approach nowhere near the Moon, is slung around the Earth, into the gravity well of the Moon and then back around on a collision with Earth. Splash down in the pacific and a massive Tsunami hits an Auckland beach, where Slater, Key and Craig are having a picnic. What could be the chances?
I reckon its a winner for film funding – good NZ content spattered all over it.
So whos advising Cunliffe? Wouldn’t be Mallard by any chance… 🙂
zzzzzzzzzzzzz
Wake up Paul you’ll miss it.
It? What? The meteorite?
Wonkette: New Zealand Prime Minister claims he’s not a lizard person, which is exactly what lizard people would say
Some of the weirder comments:
I guess compared to teabaggers, gun nuts, and the corporate crony infested White House you might say that. But we can reasonably infer that our ex-Merrill-Lynch bankster PM made his $50 million by attacking the NZ dollar in the late 80s, causing huge damage to the economy. He’s following the neocon playbook and making it much easier for his corporate pals and giant banks to extract as much wealth as possible from the 99% of suckers. Goofy antics like this lizard joke are the mask of the smiling assassin.
Cannabis law reform could still be a big issue for the 2014 election: http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/9687450/Retiring-Waikato-police-chief-backs-cannabis-law-change
The stuff poll (don’t laugh!) is telling. 38.5% supporting decriminalisation and 38.8% supporting full legalisation. Only 20.6% against both options.
It is a pity the LP isn’t prepared to front foot the issue. Would be an instant vote boost from the ALCP.
aye..pigman..
..the/our politicians/leaders are all gutless-bastards..
..and couldn’t ‘lead’ a fucken conga-line..
..what are they waiting for..?
..100% support..?
..80% demanding a law-change not enough..?
..phillip ure..
Old lefties and old conservatives alike don’t like cannabis in my experience. As much as it should be decriminalised there is much work to do on the model used. Unfettered unregulated freedom of use would not run for any party I would imagine. I’d like to see it regulated similar to alcohol, R18, licenced premises (cafés), and obviously taxed appropriately. You’d have to argue the zealotry of ignorance with regard to cannabis though. In my view alcohol does far more harm than cannabis ever has or ever will.
@ blue..+ 1..
phillip ure..
Greenwald in jaw-dropping BBC interview
by JONATHAN COOK, Nazareth, 29 November 2013
Glenn Greenwald on sharp form, as ever, and the BBC interviewer, on this occasion Stephen Sackur, on woeful form, as ever.
The last five-minute exchange, starting at about 19.20 mins, when Sackur ends up defending Britain’s security services against Greenwald’s charge that they lied during the Iraq war, is simply jaw-dropping in its asinine, dangerous complacency.
How do these BBC mouthpieces have the nerve to call themselves journalists?
Read more….
http://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2013-11-29/greenwald-in-jaw-dropping-bbc-interview/
The most embarrassing news interview ever
by JONATHAN COOK in Nazareth, 4 October 2013
This must be the most cringe-inducing interview by a senior journalist I’ve ever seen.
It’s conducted by Kirsty Wark, one of the BBC’s top presenters, and takes places on Newsnight, the BBC’s flagship nightly current affairs programme.
It truly makes me more ashamed of the “profession” of journalism than I already was – and I didn’t think that was possible.
Throughout the interview, Wark abandons even the pretence of doing what journalism is supposed to be about: interrogating the centres of power and holding them to account. Instead Wark mimics adversarial journalism by interrogating the US journalist Glenn Greenwald about his role in the NSA leaks, as though she’s a novice MI5 recruit. To do this she has to parrot British government misinformation and fire at him questions so childish even she seems to realise half way through them how embarrassing they are.
This is actually how most Newsnight interviews run: creating the theatre of conflict between journalist and interviewee that conceals the real issues rather than revealing them. If one wanted to produce news that looked honest while actually being deeply dishonest this is exactly how one would do it.
The reason that the charade is exposed in this case is because the interviewee, Greenwald, is another journalist, and a far better one than Wark. So every time she relays an MI5 talking point, he can point out that she’s not doing the work of a journalist, even by the official definition she is supposed to believe in.
Anyway, watch it and weep…
See the video here….
http://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2013-10-04/the-most-embarrassing-news-interview-ever/
“It found that the median hourly earnings for New Zealanders increased from $18.70 in 2008 to $21.58 last year, yet they worked slightly fewer hours – 35.7 last year down from 36.5 in 2008.”
50% of kiwis on $21.58 or less
and 50% working less than 36 hours per work
Yup it’s a rockstar economy alright…
One person is the getting the star’s wage, a few others get the roadies wage and the majority have to pay to watch the star…god how they are paying
That is true if you include the unemployed, 15year old school children, and other groups that distort the figures. The average wage is really $27.55 per hour and that is a good wage
The Average Wage is a totally fictional figure, use your fucken nut for once in your miserable life wont you,
The earnings of those on the rising scale of earning over that $27.55 simply drags up the figure in the contest of meaningless mumbo jumbo statistics,
The only logical means of establishing a proper picture of the earnings of the New Zealand workforce is to have a chart divided into five thousand dollar income bands showing how many workers are in each wage band…
Here are the facts Tracey. We are not talking about people on welfare.
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2013/09/beware_the_average_income_stat.html
From your link:
“The more useful stat for me is what is the average hourly income of someone in employment. Because it is people in employment who fund the rest of society.
The average or mean is different from the median, but I use it here as Stats NZ only provide the mean in their quarterly stats.”
A bit disingenuous of David Farrar.
First, he doesn’t help his readers to understand the importance of the difference between median and average. Second, and far more significantly, however, he claims that he finds the quarterly stats ‘more useful’ for him. Why?
Interestingly, Farrar wrote that blog in September, 2013.
For some reason he nevertheless failed to rely on the median weekly income from salaries and wages provided in the June quarter 2013 New Zealand Income Survey.
If he had realised that such a source existed – didn’t someone say he once was a researcher? – he could have cited, from the ‘Key Facts’, a very recent median weekly income figure and done a quick bit of arithmetic to arrive at an hourly median rate from wages and salaries. Here’s what the NZIS for the June quarter 2013 had to say:
“Median weekly income from wages and salaries (for those receiving
income from this source) was $844, up $38 (4.8 percent).”
If Farrar’s preferred 40 hour week were divided into 844 he ends up with a median hourly income of $21.10. Alternatively, scaling up the $844 per week to an annual income gives us a figure of $43, 888.
Alternatively, if he had dug just a wee bit further into the NZIS June Quarter 2013 pdf he could have seen the median hourly income directly reported:
“Median hourly earnings for those receiving wage and salary income increased by 72 cents (3.5 percent) between the June 2012 and June 2013 quarters, to $21.58.”
If you are at all interested, he got his much ‘preferred’ average hourly figure from the September quarter Quarterly Employment Survey 2013, which has the ‘Key Fact’:
“Unadjusted, average ordinary-time hourly earnings rose 1.6 percent, to reach $27.98.”
[Importantly, the Quarterly Employment Survey surveys businesses, rather than households and people – as the NZIS does.]
Curiously, he had no links in his post to his source for his average hourly figure (just saying it was from NZ Stats) – I presume he calculated, probably correctly, that very few of his readers would bother to check or inform themselves about the various statistics collected on income from employment.
I think I understand why Farrar found the average hourly stat “more useful” for him.
Sadly, Naki Man, Farrar is not the Messiah – he’s just a naughty boy.
Seems to be catching, i had a moan about RadioNZ National program having taken up a very bad habit of allowing National Government Ministers to kill the story of the day by simply refusing that stations invitation for the relevant Minister to appear,
Last nights Campbell Live has taken to using the same ‘trick’ in what looks like a deliberate act of aiding and abetting this National Government to kill off hot news of the day thus allowing them to control the political discourse,
Invited onto Campbell Live last night was the Green Parties Russell Norman and National’s Simon Bridges so a debate over the Green Party proposed Solar Energy scheme could take place,
Campbell pipes up that Bridges had refused the invitation, and, i am pretty fucken sure Dr Norman didn’t, but, as Bridges wouldn’t front Campbell killed the story,
What is this shit,really??? is the deliberate killing of stories by this means the broadcasters interpretation of providing balance and fairness under the auspices of the Broadcasting Act, or, is the National Government colluding with the management of the broadcasters to use such a means of killing the news of the day that might show them in a bad light…
Mr Bridges had ridiculed the Green Solar Panel Plan. That was why John Campbell invited Bridges and Norman to debate the finances of the plan. Campbell felt that Norman had explained the finances pretty well but when Bridges refused to front there was no debate. Bridges does not know how to build bridges.
“Mind the Gap” documentary, on Child Poverty in NZ – late schedule change. Will now show again on TV3 tomorrow night 8.30pm – pass it on…..