Open Mike 18/06/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 18th, 2017 - 149 comments
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149 comments on “Open Mike 18/06/2017”

  1. Ad 1

    In case any of you are sharp-eyed enough to pick out the Labour MPs who organized agains him, here’s Jeremy Corbyn getting a standing ovation after the election from his colleagues as he enters parliament:

    • Gosman 1.1

      Yet he still lost

      • Ant 1.1.1

        Your point?

      • Gosman’s the Snide Sniper.

      • Foreign waka 1.1.3

        Gosman, I see this as an exceptional result given the enormous tide of corruption and greed he stood against.
        Lets not forget, the Westminster system is a FPP system and in reality the majority of votes went actually to Corbyn.
        So really he did not loose but the people of Britain did.

      • reason 1.1.4

        “we might wonder why, when Northland is suffering deprivation and economic stagnation, Maraetai Drive millionaires are allowed to strip the province of its natural resources, tear up its wild places and reap outrageous profits while an apologist Government runs interference in the media.”

        Despite the New Zealand Labour party being disgracefully quiet …. seemingly not endorsing or backing Jeremy corbyn and his amazing resurrection of democracy and left wing politics in the UK …….

        Despite this rejection and lost opportunity by Nz Labour ….. The Nacts are exposed and weak in our coming election ….. after 9 years of dishonest rot……bare faced looting….compulsive cheating… and sloppy destructive greed …. they own all of the disgusting outcomes

        Corruption , arrogance and incompetence

        .Exibit A) https://publicaddress.net/envirologue/swamp-monsters-the-looting-of-northlands/ .

        “when sawn lengths of swamp kauri are offered for sale on the website of Wisconsin-based furniture company Ancientwood that measure 12 metres in length, it means that, assuming someone has followed the letter of the law, they have exported timber from a tree more than twice the width of Te Matua Ngahere, the widest known living kauri at 5.2 metres across.”

        Clearly, a great many swamp kauri exports are a scam, but the Government seems unwilling even to send for a tape measure. The Northland Environmental Protection Society (NEPS) has repeatedly pointed out that MPI’s own records show that it regularly rubber-stamps such improbable transactions” ….

        “Primary Industries Minister Nathan Guy insists … we manage it very, very closely.” ……” Really? Documents obtained under the Official Information Act by the NEPS are claimed to show that in fact, mandatory information was missing from some 80 per cent of MPI intention-to-export notices processed in 2013.”

        Lets repeat that …..” , mandatory information was missing from some 80 per cent of MPI intention-to-export notices processed in 2013.

        Imagine if Winz did this …… or the ministry of health …../ or immigration …… 80% fucken non compliance in the paper work. ….. Lets call it what it is …. Govt collusion with Corruption.

        But It gets better … or worse …

        “That one of the prominent speculators in this grey market in taonga happens to be David Wong-Tung, husband of National MP Judith Collins, should rightly raise eyebrows, along with suspicions that her involvement places the Government in an awkward spot – again. Wong-Tung is a director in Kauri Ruakaka Ltd, formerly Oravida Kauri, which has stockpiled an estimated 80,000 tonnes of logs”.. ( worth 50-400 Million )

        This is lazy economic vandalism. Northland needs more high-value jobs but instead the return is is going to places like Poland

        This criminal enterprise … involving greedy Vandals and Govt departments ………should be stopped immediately ….. with sackings where appropriate.

        As this scam is robbing Hones electorate . He should make it one of his bottem lines before supporting any govt/coalition…

        that Judiths Orvidia logs will be compulsory purchased ….at a reasonable profit margin …. But only after they have proved they were harvested legally and in compliance with relevant laws ….., If laws were broken the logs should naturally be forfieted ….as unlike Nathan Guy, one should not reward law breakers .

        Orvidias stockpile should be used for the local tribe …… Not greedy grasping Judith and other rich trash with sticky fingers

        Once again ….. 80% non compliance by nathan guys ministry is scandalous …..

        And this govt is riddled with piss weak bad laws and crap regulations…… which they ignore.

        The lack of Ecan prosecutions for polluting and stealing water resources is another example of this …. lowered standards AND no prosecutions.

        Pike river ……. Charter schools ….. Carbon credits/global warming …..Bio security …. sanctions for the benefit of nazis …etc etc etc

        Lowered standards ….. cheating …… non compliance …..injustice and exploitation…. war crimes.

        But for electioneering purposes ….I’d focus on three or four areas …..Enviroment, Housing , health & Education…. …. prime areas of weakness the Nacts should be hammered over..

        They are weak because they are shit ……

        Thats why Johnny Madeoff 😉 …. Winne was going to have his head in a wine box.

        I think we should acknowledge Winne as a both a King and Knight slayer….

      • saveNZ 1.1.5

        You might have to eat your words Gosman, as it’s not looking strong and stable with the DUP, dare we say, looking more like a, Coalition of Chaos!

      • Incognito 1.1.6

        Yet paradoxically he got a standing ovation and Theresa May was greeted with icy silence.

        Let your imagination roam free Gosman and ditch the dualism.

      • Red 1.1.7

        The gap between Tory and labour seats is larger than 2014, yet this election is called a win by Corbyn where he called 2014 a disaster, Looking to grow even larger in future with many labour electorates to disappear, up to 30 with population changes

      • mary_a 1.1.8

        It was close Gosman (1,1), very close. What was achieved by Jeremy Corbyn was amazing.

        Corbyn shook the establishment, damaging the Tories, with the likelihood of Theresa May being replaced in the near future.

      • Gabby 1.1.9

        Leaving Wheresa May to balls up Brexit.

  2. James 2

    Team New Zealand take the lead in the Americas cup. Looks like we *may* have built the faster boat. It’s going to be exciting.

    • Tony Veitch (not etc) 2.1

      People sleeping cars, 90,000 NEETs, the environment being stuffed by industrial dairy, house prices averaging a million dollars etc – but that’s all right because we’ve built a faster boat!

      How fatuously superficial can you get?

      • james 2.1.1

        Hey – it is possible to enjoy something positive and not walk around in a constant state of misery.

        You should try it – it will make your life a lot happier.

        • Ed 2.1.1.1

          That’s all you talk about.
          Saying nothing about the important stuff is taking the side of the oppressors.
          It is clear from your actions you care more about sport than caring for the vulnerable in our society.

        • wayne 2.1.1.2

          James,

          Your comment about the Americas Cup is a deliberate wind up. You know perfectly well that this site is not really a forum for sport and was bound to generate negative comment.

          I am pretty sure you also know that most of the left commenters on this site would see the Americas Cup as an elitist sport (though that is much less true of the NZ team) that they would go out of their way to avoid. So you got a perfectly predictable reaction.

          While I am fan of the Cup and watched this mornings races, I wouldn’t deliberately start a flame war on The Standard on the topic.

          • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.2.1

            Wayne, your comment is perfectly formed, like a well trimmed sail.

          • Halfcrown 2.1.1.2.2

            Wayne said.@8.26 am

            “left commenters on this site would see the Americas Cup as an elitist sport”

            Well, it is Wayne and we get it morning noon and night, and it is taking precedence over other things.
            Take TV1 News any night after about 5 minutes we are into sport be it the All Blacks doing this or that or America’s Cup that normally takes up at least 5 minutes or so of the news bulletin, to be repeated AGAIN in depth at about 6 45. Whereas other news items are either not reported or given about 10 seconds

            As for being a fan, I was right up to the time it was decided the “red socks” that were originally made in the South Island, were suddenly made in China.
            A good sporting gesture that was wasn’t it mate, after expecting New Zealanders to get behind and support their “elitist sport” .

        • saveNZ 2.1.1.3

          James, you are well represented by National MP’s, here is one wanting to be on the harbour instead of her job representing people – yes Natz, disabled people are people too!

          ‘Rather be out on the harbour’ – National Party MP tweets from disability meetings

          http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/06/rather-be-out-on-the-harbour-national-party-mp-tweets-from-disability-meetings.html

          • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.3.2

            Ms Wagner slights the people she’s supposed to be dedicated to helping – what a very, very foolish thing to say and do. It’s little wonder National’s MPs are so often characterized as arrogant out of touch with ordinary people; in this case, extra-ordinary people. The “optics” here, as they say, are appalling.

            • Ed 2.1.1.3.2.1

              ‘Gary Farrow, a journalist and disability advocate who lives with a severe brain injury, says he is concerned about Ms Wagner’s progress with the portfolio if she is complaining about attending meetings.

              “If our own Disability Issues Minister is subliminally complaining about attending meetings in Auckland, relating to exactly that portfolio, by openly commenting that she’d rather be somewhere on the harbour – which is inaccessible to many people with disabilities – then I fear for the amount of progress she’s actually aiming to achieve for the disabled community at these meetings.”

              Ms Wagner has been contacted for comment.’

              Bet she will be unavailable.

              http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/06/rather-be-out-on-the-harbour-national-party-mp-tweets-from-disability-meetings.html

            • Ed 2.1.1.3.2.2

              From the Herald.

              Special Educational Needs NZ posted its disgust to Facebook.

              “That’s just such a thoughtless and heartless thing to say. I’m quite sure people living with disabilities wish they could walk away from what they face every day, but they can’t, and it’s the Minister’s job to support them.”

              The Green Party’s spokeswoman for disability issues Mojo Mathers, who is deaf, told Newshub the tweet was appallingly shallow.

              “It really makes me question her commitment to the disability community if she’d rather be out on the harbour than in meetings with them.”

              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11878665

          • Ed 2.1.1.3.3

            Just a sample of the reaction on twitter.

            ‘Then resign and give your position to someone with integrity and compassion. Shame on you.’

            ‘Oh my gosh. Your my mp. From my area. You told me disability was your most important thing to you. You lied to me.’

            ‘Good idea. Please resign immediately and get out on the harbour. Stay out there.’

            ‘I suggest you step down then. Our communities deserve someone who wants to be there and makes a difference.’

            • jcuknz 2.1.1.3.3.1

              Stupid ignorant folk who do not appreciate that there is a special class of boat designed for challenged folk to join her out on the harbour
              twitering on twitter. URRRGH!

          • Stuart Munro 2.1.1.3.4

            I’d rather she was out on the harbor too – [RL: Deleted. You are making a bad habit of this kind of thing. Last warning.]

            • Stuart Munro 2.1.1.3.4.1

              We have a full blown kleptocracy – the worst in the OECD. This can be resolved through our existing formal judicial processes, in ways that will not challenge your delicate sensibilities, or it will meet with informal processes.

              Crooks must be punished.

              No sign of functional formal process yet.

              [RL: This site has a long standing practice of moderating threats of physical violence, implicit or otherwise. This is not something you will get any wriggle room on, and if you think about it from our perspective you will understand why.]

            • Muttonbird 2.1.1.3.4.2

              Hey Stuart. I saw the comment before it was deleted and I laughed. It was searing black humour satire. Keep it up.

              [RL Banned for one week. Moderation on this matter is not up for discussion or debate]

        • AB 2.1.1.4

          Awesome display by the Lions last night James. I see a 2-1 victory for them over the All Blacks. That, and not winning the Americas Cup should see soft National supporters in a gloomy mood come September, not pumped up at all by fake euphoria. Definitely looking very bad psychologically for the soft centre. Happy days!

          • James 2.1.1.4.1

            I pick your pick is wrong. ABs will win the series – Americas cup still too close to call

            I’m picking nat supporters will continue to be pretty happy – certainly a lot happier than the labour voters come September.

            • In Vino 2.1.1.4.1.1

              So your half-full glass will be flowing up over the brim, will it Lames – I mean James?
              I am an enthusiastic sailor, but reading eyewash from an ignorant wally like you makes me wonder if sport is nothing more than panem et circenses.

            • Muttonbird 2.1.1.4.1.2

              I expect Bling is pretty nervous about the outcomes of these matches because his election hinges on it.

              That’s the extent of the shallowness of the New Zealand the Nats have created.

      • Ed 2.1.2

        The James equivalent in the U.K. would have chastised you for being miserable and referring to the Grenfell Tower tragedy rather than blabbing on about the Lions rugby team.

        Bread and circuses.
        And James loves circuses.

        • James 2.1.2.1

          Not really I would have commented on it on the appropriate thread if I wanted to – this is open Mike.

          • Ed 2.1.2.1.1

            What’s your view on our levels of child poverty in New Zealand?
            How do we solve this?

            • James 2.1.2.1.1.1

              Completely off topic and nothing to do with the subject. Poor troll attempt.

      • jcuknz 2.1.3

        I was a yachtie but I still think you are correct Tony … but then I was interested in passage making not racing.

      • greywarshark 2.1.4

        Good question, NZ aims to be the best at being fatuously superficial. We can and will be world class!

      • Red 2.1.5

        Especially if of your namesake is a fine sports broadcaster

    • mauī 2.2

      How many Pasifika, Māori or women are involved in Team New Zealand?

      • james 2.2.1

        Whats that got to with anything?

        But because you are obviously a bit thick with your comment – there are a few guys on the boat – but there are 100’s of people that are employed in the shore team, as well as the people who do the admin, make parts for the boat, paint it, are involved in the shops selling ETNZ gear etc etc etc.

        • mauī 2.2.1.1

          Thanks James. 5 women and at least 1 Māori out of 90 odd people according to the website.

          http://emirates-team-new-zealand.americascup.com/en/team.html

          • James 2.2.1.1.1

            Again so?

            • mauī 2.2.1.1.1.1

              So I wonder what engagement\viewership is like with Māori and women then?

              • James

                Are you inferring that women and Maori watching depend on the number of women and maori employed by the team ?

                that’s a bit of a jump and pathetic race and sex baiting.

                Women are perfectly able to watch a race without women being involved.

                I doubt any Maori would say they they would like to watch but don’t because of the number of Maori employees.

        • The decrypter 2.2.1.2

          james. Would you lead a haka before every cup race, if team nz don’t already do one? Say on a wharf– with all your tory mates.

    • Ed 2.3

      Rod Emerson’s cartoon.
      It seems the perfect message for you.

      The message, if you’re ‘a bit thick’, is.. we are better than that.
      .

      https://mobile.twitter.com/rodemmerson/status/875789296728289280/photo/1

    • Halfcrown 2.4

      Who gives a fucking shit, and that is from a person who played a lot of sport and loved my sailing.

      Someone said to me quite a few years ago that

      “Sport was the opium of the masses”

      I think it was a play on something Marx may have said. I am not going to look it up etc have no need

      It has certainly got you well and truly you drugged up blinding you to what is really happening in this country and the world.

      • Red 2.4.1

        It’s a play on the Marx original term religion is the opium of the masses, ie be happy been poor, the king is god appointed, obey and be happy with your lot, anything else is a sin and your rewards will come in heaven Not sure really if sport is a suitable replacement, more so boring, anti sport types simply getting in a tizz because somebody else is enjoying themselves and does not want to sit around debating Marxist dialectic materialism

        • Halfcrown 2.4.1.1

          Once again you have fucking missed the point haven’t you I knew all about that. Have you read Marx? I have and also other shit by Ayn Rand, she should have been locked up as a threat to mankind.
          What this person was implying, keep the peasantry drugged on sport and we will fuck them over without them knowing. Our pathetic excuse for news on the media is a good example of that. Has that spelt it out to you in enough simplistic terms?
          What’s the betting that National are hoping that we win the America’s Cup and The All Blacks beat the shit out of the Lions to make sure we all have the “Feel Good” feeling for the next election?

          As for sitting around debating Marxists dialect well, I don’t know anyone who does that and who gives a shit if they do. Who are these anti-sports types who get into a tizz? I don’t know any but I know a lot of people who are not fucking brain dead and go into a trance every time the All Blacks or America’s cup is mentioned and can see through all the bullshit that goes with it and won’t buy into the hype.

          How do you know anti-sport types are boring? I have been in the company of sports enthusiasts and frankly, as a sportsman myself I have been glad to get out of their company as I have been bored shitless with the dissecting of the game, the players, the ref, and all the fucking sundry cretinous crap that goes with it.

          • In Vino 2.4.1.1.1

            Please, it was ‘opiate’ of the masses. Red, you pretend to know so much…

    • AsleepWhileWalking 2.5

      Nowhere near as exciting as when the government properly funds community groups who have been stripped of resources. Perhaps the boat bastards will donate a sizable chunk of the millions they win? No?

    • Gabby 2.6

      That’s nice for *us* jimbo.

    • Incognito 2.7

      Yeah nah, it’s a fake faster boat ‘cos this is the America’s Cup you know …

      • In Vino 2.7.1

        Good, I like that. “Fake speed.” I must try to use that argument during a sailing race next season. (Rowers could not use that argument, because they are all limited to looking backwards.)

  3. Ad 3

    …and a little well-earned post-British-election righteousness from Sanders:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/13/opinion/bernie-sanders-how-democrats-can-stop-losing-elections.html?src=me&_r=1

    “A vast majority of Americans understand that our current economic model is a dismal failure. Who can honestly defend the current grotesque level of inequality in which the top 1 percent owns more than the bottom 90 percent? Who thinks it’s right that, despite a significant increase in worker productivity, millions of Americans need two or three jobs to survive, while 52 percent of all new income goes to the top 1 percent? What person who claims to have a sense of morality can justify the fact that the richest people in our country have a life expectancy about 15 years longer than our poorest citizens?

    While Democrats should appeal to moderate Republicans who are disgusted with the Trump presidency, too many in our party cling to an overly cautious, centrist ideology. The party’s main thrust must be to make politics relevant to those who have given up on democracy and bring millions of new voters into the political process. It must be prepared to take on the right-wing extremist ideology of the Koch brothers and the billionaire class, and fight for an economy and a government that work for all, not just the 1 percent.”

  4. Penny Bright 4

    https://www.facebook.com/1261190663892805/videos/1743674342311099/

    Suzie Dawson (Suzette Maree Dawson) is now the new ‘Leader’ of the Internet Party.

    BEWARE!

    This is what one of Suzette Maree Dawson’s key supporters Ben Cooney said about me on a live-streamed video of the 8 December 2012 anti-TPPA protest in Auckland – which was posted on Suzie Dawson’s PRIVATE website – Occupy Savvy.

    This is why, in my opinion, decent people and genuine political activists should have NOTHING to do with either Suzie Dawson or Ben Cooney.

    Penny Bright.

    ‘Anti-privatisation/ anti-corruption campaigner’

    Political activist from 18 years old – now in my 63rd year.

    • Wainwright 4.1

      Penny Bright (Penelope Mary Bright) still carrying on her weird campaign against Suzi Dawson.

    • xanthe 4.2

      Penny, i apologize for previous comments, I now understand your position here.

  5. Ed 5

    Very interesting talk about Afghanistan by Jon Stephenson yesterday.

  6. Ed 6

    Watch Theresa May tell a barefaced lie to the victims of the Grenfell Fire.
    Starts at 5:23

    Interviewer Emily Maitlis challenged May:

    “This was preventable, wasn’t it? In 2013, a coroner had safety recommendations which included putting sprinklers in all these buildings. And it was never done. There was two types of material that could have been used in the cladding. One was flammable and one was fireproof. And the fireproof one cost £2 more. Was that not £2 worth spending?”

    May replied:

    “The fire service are looking are looking at what the cause of the fire was.”

    Maitlis continued:

    “But you were recommended this in 2013. You were in government there. And the coroner said you can stop this with a sprinkler system in every block.”

    May responded with a lie:

    “And the government has taken action on the recommendations of the coroner’s report.”

    https://www.thecanary.co/2017/06/17/watch-theresa-may-tell-bare-faced-lie-victims-grenfell-fire/

    • Draco T Bastard 6.1

      Ignoring the report so as to increase profits is an action.

      • Ed 6.1.1

        Two quotes for May ( regarding Grenfell) and English ( regarding Pike River)

        “Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph.”

        Haile Selassie

        “We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. Sometimes we must interfere. When human lives are endangered, when human dignity is in jeopardy, national borders and sensitivities become irrelevant.”

        Elie Wiesel

  7. greywarshark 7

    On Radionz this morning on immigration the author of a book about NZ and immigration says something like ‘look all Auckland’s problems wouldn’t be solved if immigrants were unable to move there’. This didn’t seem to me to be an intelligent attitude to take to the problem of how many, whom, doing what, from where and other questions about immigration. The theme seemed to be laissez faire and they can help with the problems they cause. Housing shortage? Bring in workers to help build them. With incisive minds like this at work, I can see NZ’s borders being the subject of rorts and changeable policies, none of them driven by good thinking.

    I notice that many of the initiatives being carried forward arise from the ideas, energy and enthusiasm of immigrants, recent or from late 1900s. But there are billions of people out there and there has to be some reasoned control. Of do we just divide NZ up into grids of 20 sqm and hock them off on the basis of a flyer of romantic views from the 1950s. We need to listen to the views of those pragmatic people who are concerned about now to 2050.

    Audio will come up for – 9.35 Attitudes to immigration
    David Hall is a senior researcher at the Policy Observatory at AUT and editor of Fair Borders, Migration Policy in the 21st century. He discusses New Zealanders’ changing attitudes to immigration.

    • He got the point that fixing the underlying causes of all the issues is the way to go not blame immigrants.

      • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1

        We’re not blaming the immigrants. We’re blaming the governments gross negligence in not planning for the huge immigration that they’ve allowed or even asking questions about how many immigrants we can support. Yes, support, immigration is expensive in the short term.

        • McFlock 7.1.1.1

          Really? How much does the average immigrant cost?

          • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1.1.1

            That would depend upon how much of the resources we have available needs to be diverted to build up the infrastructure to support them. A diversion of resources is a real cost because it means that something else can’t be done.

            A lot of the mess we have today is because the government hasn’t been building that needed infrastructure or even planning for it.

            • Union city reds 7.1.1.1.1.1

              “$20.190 million to look after 750 refugees last year”
              https://thestandard.org.nz/how-much-does-new-zealand-spend-on-refugees/

              “Migrants’ parents cost NZ ‘tens of millions'”
              http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/315435/migrants%27-parents-cost-nz-%27tens-of-millions%27

              • McFlock

                Refugees aren’t migrants. Totally different basket of fish.
                And the second story was about immigration controls being imposed against groups that might cost money in the long term, so hardly evidence that all immigration is expensive in the short term, even if they contribute more overall in the longer term.

            • McFlock 7.1.1.1.1.2

              Funny, because I thought you meant “expensive in the short term” as in “costs more money than they bring in and produce”.

              Because otherwise they’re not a cost, they’re a benefit – the opportunity cost of not having them is worse than the opportunity cost of “supporting” them.

              • Craig H

                If they bring children, it can cost more than the taxes they pay. 9k p.a. for free childcare for 3 and 4 year olds (no residency criteria for this, so they are all eligible), and for those children who are eligible for free public education (dependents of work visa holders), it costs nearly 6k p.a. for primary and nearly 8k for high school.

                Not that I begrudge the education, but there are soberly costs that can outweigh the taxes paid.

                • McFlock

                  Ok, so in some cases it might. So how much does the average immigrant cost?

                  • Craig H

                    The average immigrant is a visitor on a visitor visa, followed by working holidaymakers – since they pay GST, we come out well ahead fiscally.

                    If you’re talking about standard work visas, without family, we come out ahead as long as there are no serious medical problems or accidents. With families including children, it is based heavily on family income, but wages need to be well over 40K for taxes to pay for one child in primary school (this is complicated by GST).

              • Draco T Bastard

                Funny, because I thought you meant “expensive in the short term” as in “costs more money than they bring in and produce”.

                Two point:
                1. Far better to measure things in physical terms. Makes it far easier to measure costs than through our delusional financial system.
                2. It does cost more in the short term than they bring in and produce. After all they don’t bring in anything and so we need to support them until they’re producing.

                Because otherwise they’re not a cost, they’re a benefit – the opportunity cost of not having them is worse than the opportunity cost of “supporting” them.

                Which is debatable considering the very real physical limits we actually exist within which you seem to be ignoring.

                • McFlock

                  1: ok, so you have a “far better” measure, but still can’t actually answer the question
                  2: So now nobody imports cash or a container of goods or maybe even 20 years’ training and experience when they immigrate? Bullshit on that.
                  3: if it’s so debatable, why are you having so much difficulty supporting what was a pretty specific claim: that immigrants are a cost in the short term?

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    1. It’s complicated. When immigrants first come into the country they need to be supported from the resources we have and the infrastructure. If the infrastructure isn’t in place then it costs in ways such as higher drive times, over loaded buses and, of course, building the new infrastructure. These costs will go away over time as they’re addressed which is why I said ‘short term’. But when there’s ongoing excessive immigration, as we have now, then those short term costs exist all the time and get worse exponentially.
                    2. Cash is nothing – it only buys what we have available at that time reducing what’s available to everyone else and probably pushing up inflation thus is a cost. How many immigrants, as a percentage, come with a container load of goods? Doubt if it’s many. 20 years experience is great – once they start producing more than it cost to import them.
                    3. I’m not having difficulty doing that at all. Even Treasury, that bastion of neo-liberalism and high population and the immigration to get it now say that excessive immigration is costing us more than it benefits us.

                    • McFlock

                      So basically you don’t know how much they bring in with them, you refuse to count cash, and you’re just assuming that the costs outweigh the benefits in the short term.

                      And you’re appealing to the authority of Treasury, without backing it up.

                      Solid argumentation you got there /sarc

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      So basically you don’t know how much they bring in with them,

                      No I don’t as I haven’t seen it published anywhere.

                      Have you?

                      you refuse to count cash

                      I don’t refuse to count it so much as consider it to have a negative effect according to standard supply and demand.

                      and you’re just assuming that the costs outweigh the benefits in the short term.

                      There are costs – I even listed some of them. In the short term those costs will outweigh the benefits. That’s just the nature of costs.

                      You’re assuming that there’s no costs at all which is ridiculous and dangerous.

                      And you’re appealing to the authority of Treasury, without backing it up.

                      It’s been reported several times in the MSM and here. My mistake in assuming that you, being the political animal that you are, would have seen it. Here you are:

                      The Treasury warned that record levels of immigration could push New Zealanders out of low-skilled jobs, depress wages and increase housing pressures.

                      All of those are costs that apply until they’re addressed (and Treasury either missed some or they weren’t reported). The problem being that they’re not being addressed and so the costs to our society keep going up.

                    • McFlock

                      So basically you don’t know how much they bring in with them,

                      No I don’t as I haven’t seen it published anywhere.

                      Have you?

                      No, but then I’m not the one who made the proclamation that one outweighs the other “in the short term”

                      you refuse to count cash

                      I don’t refuse to count it so much as consider it to have a negative effect according to standard supply and demand.

                      Yeah, you’re the first person I’ve encountered who thinks that bringing money in to the local economy is a negative.

                      and you’re just assuming that the costs outweigh the benefits in the short term.

                      There are costs – I even listed some of them. In the short term those costs will outweigh the benefits. That’s just the nature of costs.

                      You’re assuming that there’s no costs at all which is ridiculous and dangerous.

                      No, I merely asked you to back up your claim that any “costs” outweighed the benefits of immigration “in the short term”.

                      And you’re appealing to the authority of Treasury, without backing it up.

                      It’s been reported several times in the MSM and here. My mistake in assuming that you, being the political animal that you are, would have seen it. Here you are:

                      The Treasury warned that record levels of immigration could push New Zealanders out of low-skilled jobs, depress wages and increase housing pressures.

                      All of those are costs that apply until they’re addressed (and Treasury either missed some or they weren’t reported). The problem being that they’re not being addressed and so the costs to our society keep going up.

                      could, in the specific case of low-skilled migrants. So, basically, again not support for your claim that immigration is expensive in the short term.”

            • Red 7.1.1.1.1.3

              The problem with the planned economy is the plan is usually out of date the day the ink dries or predicated on dodgy data or to the benefit corrupt or idealogically driven select few of the ruling statist elite. The result a massive inefficient allocation of resources, The history of the Soviet Union, China ( the Great Leap Forward) are good cases in point, likewise Nz up to the last 5 years we had net negative immigration, ie people leaving under auntie Helens labour government to Australia, it is only the success of a nationsl government turning the exit around and now requiring time for the market and to a lesser degree the government to catch up I do agree if on the rare chance we get a labour government again this will fix the immigration issue but again making any grand plan redundant, further cementing my original point

              • Draco T Bastard

                The problem with the planned economy is the plan is usually out of date the day the ink dries or predicated on dodgy data or to the benefit corrupt or idealogically driven select few of the ruling statist elite.

                That’s why plans always need to be updated.
                National seems to be keen on dodgy data hence all the lies
                National is king of corruption as well.

                The result a massive inefficient allocation of resources,

                Actually, the free-market does really inefficient allocation of resources. That’s why we have so much poverty, why 29 workers died in Pike River, why our health system is being under funded and why our electricity prices are going up.

                likewise Nz up to the last 5 years we had net negative immigration, ie people leaving under auntie Helens labour government to Australia, it is only the success of a nationsl government turning the exit around

                You really like lying to yourself don’t you?

                The reason why net migration is up is because NZers are returning home because they’re no longer getting work overseas. Ten years later and the GFC is still having that sort of effect. It’s why Australia is busy kicking NZers out.

        • greywarshark 7.1.1.2

          Nobody seems to be able to look at the facts and agree that there are too many people coming into NZ for our ability to provide the services all need.
          Or that there is a chronic shortage of housing which is exacerbated by the many. Or that there needs to be opportunity for a place for those NZs who want to return home. Or that there needs to be fairer treatment of those encouraged to apply for immigration. The government has behaved abysmally to people caught up in rorts, to changes in policy that apply immediately and exclude people who are almost accepted, and who have paid huge fees. It is just a pig’s muddle and reading the comments picking up on various details and concentrating on one or two aspects indicates how hard it is for reasoned, thoughtful discussion and policy planning.

          • marty mars 7.1.1.2.1

            The guy wrote a book and was interviewed on the radio – he knows what he is talking about, perhaps more people should listen to experts instead of just thinking and saying it.

            • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1.2.1.1

              The type of experts that say that having massive poverty and wealth inequality is good?

              Because that does seem to be the type of person who was interviewed.

              I have trouble with experts who continue to advise policies that have caused more trouble than the good that the experts predicted. It tends to indicate that the expert is following ideology rather than reality.

              • You, like key, have trouble if the experts don’t agree with your preset view.

                Have you read his book or listened to the interview?

                • Too harsh – I withdraw and apologize.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  I have trouble with experts who continue to promote policies that are obviously contrary to reality.

                  There’s a cost benefit ratio to immigration but if the costs aren’t met while immigration remains high then the problems mount exponentially.

                  For the last few years the government hasn’t met the costs and built the necessary infrastructure and so the problems caused by this have been spiralling out of control. From what I can make out they haven’t built enough infrastructure to support our own internal growth never mind the added growth from immigration.

                  Now that people are demanding that the government do address this we’ve got people, who are ignoring reality, saying that we must maintain those failed policies.

                  • Yes I know your argument. There are other views and they are mixed not just white or black. You are just one limited person with a fixed view.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      There are other views and they are mixed not just white or black.

                      If those views to not match reality then they’re not valid views.

                      It really is that simple. And so far I’ve seen very few that match the reality of our limited resources.

                    • greywarshark

                      I do not see that DTBs view limited and it is fixed on the reality not some airy fairy kind hearted view or some practical view that sees immigrants doing wonderfully for NZ. A relative is in Wellington hospital at present and says that 50% or so of nurses seem to be Filipinos and how would the DHB which apparently has got rid of a big debt, manage without them.

                      This is our dilemma, that the whole system has got out of whack and if people keep jumping in and criticising anyone who critiques it, how can we turn it to a better level, we have to think and notch it down somewhat.

                      We are so close to being a third world country run by the porcine few who indulge themselves, usually colonials who like being petty dictators in their small pond.

  8. Molly 8

    Very good podcast on Under the Skin with Russell Brand, interviewing Yanis Varoufakis.

    https://youtu.be/BX7JDLkYMWc

    Yanis Varoufakis has been working on the Democracy in Europe Movement, DiEM25 and has been working on a collective vision for promoting a representative democracy.

  9. RedBaronCV 9

    Just got around to reading the foreign trust registration articles from a few days ago.
    Now I understand that these trusts essentially pay no tax in NZ so why is the taxpayer funding the IRD (NZH “officials here are providing support when they can,”) to help these trusts sort out their obligations.

    I’d like to think the IRD is charging a swinging fee for the assistance or is this just another case of the poor subsiding some rich bludgers.

    Part of me also regrets the lost opportunity of levying a solid tax on them before they depart.
    And by the way what happens if they don’t register? How do we know they have stopped operating?

  10. Wainwright 10

    NZFirst pushing to reintroduce a legal defence for bashing your kids. Great bedfellows Labour’s courting https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/q-and-a/clips/extras/10-years-so-called-anti-smacking-bill

    You can’t beat a dog into obedience, what the hell’s wrong with these people who think you can do it to kids?

    • Draco T Bastard 10.1

      I’m pretty sure that Labour isn’t actually courting them but, ATM, the chances are that a Labour led government will include NZFirst.

      • Wainwright 10.1.1

        Of course they are. You don’t dogwhistle about brown students unless you’re trying to suck up to Winnie. And i know, i know, you’re going to say “it’s not about the students it’s not about race” but that’s exactly what Andrew Little himself has said – bad immigrants coming here living in houses taking jobs. Open your eyes.

        • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1.1

          You don’t dogwhistle about brown students unless you’re trying to suck up to Winnie.

          It’s not sucking up to Winnie – it’s acknowledging that our high immigration rates are causing problems. The fact that Winnie has been saying this for years should have you considering that maybe he was right on this. Especially when Treasury, that bastion of neo-liberalism and promoter of immigration and high population, is saying the same thing.

          It seems to be you who needs to open your eyes and rejoin reality.

        • saveNZ 10.1.1.2

          Nope Little and Labour are not saying that at all Wainwright – but there is an issue with lazy immigration and congestion and housing shortages in Auckland, and looks like the public agree, because apparently Labour/Green past National in the latest polls. Someone has to do something, if you live in Auckland! National’s plan is to pretend all is well! Even if you are some neoliberal robot, productivity will be down as it’s taking 4 hours to get anywhere.

          As for students, how about developing overseas students degrees outside of Auckland in places that could do with more people. REMOVE for every low level qualification a 25% chance of permanent residency. Let the course (NOT funded by taxpayers) speak for itself. If it’s a good course the overseas students will come won’t they?

          The Auckland migrants themselves are saying there’s a big problem – are they racist too?

    • saveNZ 10.2

      Don’t mind Winston on a lot of issues, but it’s a step too far to allow beating your kids to be legal again…. The people with the problem, can’t understand the nuances.

    • marty mars 10.3

      Yep nzfirst are low scum. I never thought anyone would be into bashing their kids. These hurtful people deserve odium in the extreme.

      • jcuknz 10.3.1

        Come on MM ….it is not letting folk ‘bash’ their kids … that is emotional twaddle …. but rather sensible in the situation it occurs in … the discipline of children.
        I experienced both stupid bad abuse and fair discipline in my youth but it would take too long to describe it. we need a law which differenciates between abuse and discipline.

        • marty mars 10.3.1.1

          No. There is no need to hit children – no good comes from it ever imo.

          If you use violence to discipline then you are way way off base.

          • Tautoko Mangō Mata 10.3.1.1.1

            +1 marty mars
            With all of the problems that NZ is facing at the moment, there seems to be no logic in NZ First bringing this issue back which will do nothing to alleviate child abuse. A binding referendum would also be perceived as a waste of money Although NZ First might gain some votes from this, I think that they will possibly lose an equal amount. However they might gain more votes from National conservatives, and turn off potential voters straying from Labour/Greens.

            • marty mars 10.3.1.1.1.1

              Yep – some random at a meeting has had a go at whynee and he has decided there are votes in it – with luck it will sink them.

              • Karen

                +1 Marty.

                It was Conservative Party policy at the last election so NZF are presumably hoping to pick up their votes. Hopefully it will lose them more votes than they gain.

          • Draco T Bastard 10.3.1.1.2

            There is no need to hit children – no good comes from it ever imo.

            And that’s what the research shows as well.

          • jcuknz 10.3.1.1.3

            A good parent rarely has need of it but it is there, or should be, as a final deterent and rarely used and not make somebody using it a criminal.

            • marty mars 10.3.1.1.3.1

              a final deterrent?

              SMACK – I told you to stop hitting your brother.

              SMACK – I told you to not go near the road especially when I’m on facebook and can’t concentrate on where you are.

              SMACK – I have many anger issues which I am taking out on you my child – but hey at least I’m not hitting some random kid eh.

    • millsy 10.4

      NZ First is trying to pick up the Conservative/ACT party hard right vote, swing right on law and order.

      Personally for, NZF lost any chance of getting a vote from when they came out as being against the use of 1080.

  11. Draco T Bastard 11

    Antarctica Is Melting, and Giant Ice Cracks Are Just the Start

    The ice sheet is held back only by its fringing ice shelves—and those floating dams, braced against isolated mountains and ridges of rock around the edges of the basin, are starting to fail. They themselves don’t add much to sea level, because they’re already floating in the water. But as they weaken, the glaciers behind them flow faster to the sea, and their edges retreat. That’s happening now all around the Amundsen Sea. The Pine Island Ice Shelf, about 1,300 feet thick over most of its area, is a dramatic case: It thinned by an average of 150 feet from 1994 to 2012. But even more worrisome is the neighboring Thwaites Glacier, which could destabilize most of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet if it collapsed.

    “These are the fastest retreating glaciers on the face of the Earth,” says Eric Rignot, a glaciologist at the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California. Rignot has studied the region for more than two decades, using radar from aircraft and satellites, and he believes the collapse of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet is only a matter of time. The question is whether it will take 500 years or fewer than a hundred—and whether humanity will have time to prepare.

    “We have to get these numbers right,” Rignot says. “But we have to be careful not to waste too much time doing that.”

  12. greywarshark 12

    How about this for NZ polls status from The Daily Blog.
    The latest UMR internal fortnightly Poll from Labour taken between 7th June – 15th June paints a completely different picture.

    This was taken after the criticism of the budget and after Labour’s foreign student cutback policy.

    National 42% (down 2)

    Labour 32% (up 2)

    Greens 13% n/c

    NZF 9% n/c

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/06/16/breaking-umr-poll-national-42-labourgreen-45/

    • Bill 12.1

      That’s an internal poll, right? Are they seen in the same light as other polls?

      • Draco T Bastard 12.1.1

        Yes and yes.

      • greywarshark 12.1.2

        The internal poll was being compared to a previous poll which showed an entirely different picture which has been explained by first euphoria from the budget which is now fading. Martyn Bradbury says:
        The latest TV3 Poll putting Labour on 26% and National on 47% would have been pretty depressing.
        It shouldn’t be.
        The Poll was taken in the sugar high of the fawning media’s description of National’s budget as left wing and family friendly before the real criticism of how National have actually underfunded health by the tune of $2.3 billion was out.

        That puts some context on it. A big difference between the two. Poll watchers will be able to assess better than me.

        And political watchers will have heard that Bryce Edwards thinks that young people aren’t going to be enticed to vote.

        He told The Project on Friday that the youth vote could only make a difference “if political parties were actually giving out policies that engaged and attracted youth”.

        Mr Edwards says it’s not young people’s fault that they’re not turning out to vote. Instead he says: “It’s actually the politicians that have failed, it’s the political system that’s failed and we should be pointing at them.
        “It’s the politicians that need to be more engaging, they need to be actually offering a product that youth want to buy if you like. They need to be actually stepping up to the plate and coming up with something a bit more inspiring.”

        http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/06/academic-predicts-a-youth-yawn-in-new-zealand-election.html

        • Incognito 12.1.2.1

          Dr Bryce Edwards is an academic expert and well-known commentator and columnist but nevertheless I think he’s omitted a few important things. [Disclaimer: the video didn’t work for me so I go on the written text only]

          The so-called “Jeremy Corbyn effect” cannot be seen in isolation but should be viewed and discussed in the unique context that is, among other things: Brexit & EU, Theresa May, recent terrorist atrocities, snap election.

          Secondly, I think there are plenty of policies on the Left that would appeal to young(er) voters.

          Thirdly, youths have a very strongly developed sense of fairness and equality and doing the right thing for their fellow humans or the environment, for example; they are definitely not the moral vacuoli that they are often painted as. If they get sufficiently enraged this could act as a powerful trigger to get them to vote against what enrages them, e.g. the establishment and rage against the machine. With youth unemployment as high as always and limited prospects for improvement I’d like to think that the youth vote is for the taking.

          Fourthly, it might now be more acceptable (‘cool’) for young people to vote and flex their political muscle and make a stand.

          • Stuart Munro 12.1.2.1.1

            By not mentioning the Corbyn policy of eliminating student loans, Edwards helped to foster the illusion that Corbyn’s popularity with youth is some kind of mystical charismatic effect like Key’s. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    • jcuknz 12.2

      A poll is only as good as its subjects being polled and more importantly how questions are framed …. I Anyway only an average of polls is likely to have any real meaning. Currently all polls are questionable from recent reading.

  13. greywarshark 13

    Martyn Bradbury in TDB
    The horror of Grenfell Tower is matched only by the rising fury at the way London’s working class, migrant, disabled and old were betrayed by failed capitalism and a mutilated welfare state.

    The prophetic warnings of the Grenfell Action Group, were ignored.

    The warnings of using this type of cladding was ignored.

    And officials sat on reports that warned a fire like that at Grenfell could occur.

    The abdication of responsibility by Government agencies to private contractors is done on purpose so that when these events occur no one is held responsible.

    I bolded the really base point that we all have noticed and need to keep remembering about the iniquitous use of private contractors so that gumminit can curry patronage and influence with business, and keep their suits clean when the shit starts flying.

  14. greywarshark 14

    Statistics NZ figures released this week have confirmed that New Zealand is in recession on a per capita basis as the economy –
    has declined –
    for two-quarters –
    when measured on this basis.

    Mike Treen says:
    The economy is simply not working or performing as expected.
    The economy has been propped up by property speculation, growing household debt, together with strong immigration and tourism numbers. This has produced economic froth rather than a growth in the real economy.

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/06/18/danger-the-economic-bubble-is-bursting/

    And we are doing so well – how can that be. Nick Smith’s largeish advertisement in a Nelson newspaper says –
    STRONG ECONOMY
    NZ economic growth 3% and amongst strongest in the world
    Nelson economy rated top performing region by ASB
    100,000+ NZ job growth, average wages up by $10,000/yr
    INVESTING IN INFRASTRUCTURE
    $20m for broadband in Nelson
    $7.5m for seafood research (probably carved off closing Invermay, Dunedin)
    Work on dam and to unclog roads to port
    HELPING FAMILIES GET AHEAD
    30,000 Nelson families gain by $26 week from tax changes
    11,000 up to $100 week from Family support
    4,000 households gain increased Accommodation (AS)
    BETTER PUBLIC SERVICES
    24 more police 39 more ambulance officers
    1,000 Nelson caregivers extra $100 pw
    DHB $16m more, $17m for ECE (NZ wide?)

    That list sounds so good. If people believe in representative gummint that is, if they want to participate and be taken seriously there would be an informed and wary response to these figures.

    • weka 14.1

      Grey, just looking at your comments getting stuck in moderation. Are you always on the same device, or sometimes commenting from more than one?

  15. The New Student 15

    Has anybody read “Dream Hoarders” by Richard Reeves?

    “How the American Upper Middle Class Is Leaving Everyone Else in the Dust, Why That Is a Problem, and What to Do about It”

  16. The Chairman 16

    The government has published a guide for overseas investors interested in profiting from the fast-growing Maori economy.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/93790386/investor-drive-key-to-lifting-maori-incomes-by-20-per-cent

  17. Muttonbird 17

    Nicky Wagner will be on the naughty step for some time having distracted from Bling’s glorious tunnel opening.

    • Incognito 17.1

      I guess we’ll have to wait till 23 Sep to find out whether there’s light at the end of the tunnel that is costing us a lot more than $1.4 billion.

  18. Muttonbird 18

    Have they come to protect their citizens’ New Zealand property rights?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11878768

    Wonder what would happen if a peaceful protest against anti-democracy the imprisonment of writers and journalists in China happened on the dock.

    I’m sure the Chinese wouldn’t open fire but I suspect the New Zealand Police would be directed to move the protesters on at the Chinese Embassy’s request.

  19. Muttonbird 19

    Even though Pete George wishes the Pike River families would undergo an emotional lobotomy and give up their fight to have their questions answered, the media just won’t let it go. Bet he’s furious (if that are at all possible).

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2017/06/new-pike-footage-shows-no-sign-of-inferno.html

    • Incognito 19.1

      There already is a Furious Pete!

      The Pike River story is so sad and just keeps dragging on; people need closure!

  20. Muttonbird 20

    Interesting state of affairs in Turkey right now with respect to the ANZAC monument at Gallipoli.

    The relationship between NZ and Australia and Turkey on this has been good recently but sometimes strained by dumb Kiwi and Aussie backpackers being dick heads at the site.

    Now it seems with Erdogan becoming the new Mussolini there is a breakdown of that relationship and I wouldn’t be surprised if the commemorations are cancelled for good in the not too distant future.

    Certainly you couldn’t expect the statesman-like Israel apologist, Gerry Brownlee to barge in there and fix it like he’s jumping an airport gate.

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2017/06/turkish-government-says-it-didn-t-destroy-anzac-monument.html

    • In Vino 20.1

      Nicely put. If the Turks do restore the full text, OK… But you might be asking a bit much for Jerry to jump a gate. He could perhaps manage a short leap over a very brief red carpet, but he will probably have tried to take a short cut through the wrong door, and be in the wrong place.
      I hope for the best about future Gallipoli celebrations, but I fear that we are getting far too wound-up over them here in NZ anyway. Gallipoli is becoming a glorification of war, along with Anzac day. I have less and less inclination to buy that poppy..

  21. Ad 21

    Pablo at Kiwipolitico says:

    “It puzzles me that even in the face of Bernie Sanders’ remarkable primary campaign in the 2016 US presidential election and UK Labour’s rise under Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership in the UK snap elections of a fortnight ago, that many in the NZ Left still cling to the (false consciousness) notion that centrist policies and identity politics are the way to play the game.”

    http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2017/06/still-think-it-is-all-about-postmodern-identity/

    Puzzled is he? Vexed by all that newfangled “postmodernism” guff?

    Pablo needs a good talking to about why gradualist change, left or right, has been the New Zealand preference for 6 elections in a row.

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