Open mike 19/07/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, July 19th, 2019 - 175 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

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175 comments on “Open mike 19/07/2019 ”

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  1. Jenny - How to Get there? 1
    19 July 2019 at 7:24 am

    If we are in a 'Climate Emergency' why do the Green Party not act like it?

    Why are the Green Party MPs still flying?

    Planning to carbon offset your flight? You should read this first

    By Adam Vaughan

    GRETA THUNBERG’S recent speech to the UK parliament was memorable not just for her oratorical firepower, but for how she got there: by taking trains from Stockholm to London, not a plane. The climate striker isn’t alone, as Swedes have driven the flygskam (flight shame) campaign. About 2000 people in the UK have pledged not to fly, while academics are being urged to fly less…..

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24332394-500-planning-to-carbon-offset-your-flight-you-should-read-this-first/?utm_campaign=onesignal&utm_medium=alert&utm_source=editorial

    ….What we really need to do is change our behaviour, but Sovacool’s research has shown that people are unlikely to do so unless politicians force them. Offsetting also carries the risk of the rebound effect, in which people feel that because they offset, they can eat more meat or drive a petrol-guzzling car, he says.

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24332394-500-planning-to-carbon-offset-your-flight-you-should-read-this-first/?utm_campaign=onesignal&utm_medium=alert&utm_source=editorial

    Changing our behaviour. Leadership is vital.

    With her refusal to fly Greta Thunberg has shown leadership, her example changing the behaviour of many. in her country.

    Our Green Party MPs are in the position to create flygskam in this country. Why won't they do it?

    None of them are electorate MPs, what's to stop them all moving to Wellington?

    Yes it will mean a personal sacrifice and possibly even hardship for some, but if our Green MPs are not prepared to forego their personal comforts and convenience in the interests of protecting the climate, how can they expect anyone else to?

    Leadership!

    Our supposed leaders have refused to show any.

    Greta Thunberg has it in spades

    • solkta 1.1
      19 July 2019 at 7:31 am

      It is not about "personal comforts and convenience" but rather their ability to do their jobs. It is very clear that you don't understand what MPs do or how very hard Green MPs work.

      • Peter Christchurh nz 1.1.1
        19 July 2019 at 9:26 am

        Exactly. And that is why I drive to work, and will continue to do so. No way whatsoever willn8 take the bus. Thtatbwould significantly add to my work day and impair my ability to perform my job.

        It is about efficiency whether a 'hard working Green MP' orbthe great hard working masses.

        • solkta 1.1.1.1
          19 July 2019 at 9:41 am

          Does your job require you to travel all over the country?

          • alwyn 1.1.1.1.1
            19 July 2019 at 10:17 am

            The comment that List MPs, which is what all the Green MPs are, should move to Wellington when they are elected has nothing to do with whether they have to travel around the country. They can still, as individuals, travel for Parliamentary reasons wherever in New Zealand they need to go. They don't have to travel backwards and forwards to some desirable location where they choose to live because the weather is nice there, or there are lovely vineyards to eat lunch at or whatever. Al their business travel could start right here in Wellington.

            Shift the List MPs, and their families to Wellington when they are elected. Pay to shift them back when they are evicted. Let them, as individuals, travel on Parliamentary business at any time to any place in New Zealand. Don't supply them with accommodation in Wellington if they choose not to live there. Don't provide free travel for spouses or children either.

            There used to be a contributor here who used the pseudonym of Weka. She offered up the standard fairy stories about how all the Green MPs worked so terribly hard in the electorates they were supposed to "represent". They all had Electorate Offices apparently and they all were supposed to work so terribly hard on behalf of their "constituents" in those electorates. I asked for the addresses of some of these Electorate Offices. That got her (or at least I think it was a her), to regularly ban me. Never did tell me where I could find an Electorate Office though.

            If the List MPs really do work so hard then moving to Wellington could only improve their productivity. They could cut out the travel back and forth to where they have chosen to live. It would probably save them 10 or 15 hours travel a week, and the emission of an enormous amount of Carbon wouldn't it? It would also mean that they could go home every night to their families instead of haunting the restaurants and bars in Wellington each night that Parliament is operating.

            A gain both ways I should think. Although their spouses might be quite happy not to have to put up with them when Parliament is in session, as they can do now.

            [Why are you criticising a moderator of this site who is no longer around? Do you think you can get away with this because there won’t be any repercussions? Guess what, you are wrong! I’ll give you the choice of taking back what you said about Weka and accept the bans you received at the time or you show you disrespect moderators, are not willing to correct your behaviour, and you have in fact not learned a thing and I will have to use a dice – Incognito]

            • Sacha 1.1.1.1.1.1
              19 July 2019 at 10:28 am

              There used to be a contributor here who used the pseudonym of Weka.

              …

              That got her (or at least I think it was a her), to regularly ban me.

              A moderator, you mean. Whose actions you are commenting on now..

              • alwyn …
                19 July 2019 at 10:42 am

                I thought "contributor" best described her . She did, after all, write an awful lot of comments, as well as judging others opinions. And she was obviously a moderator. Otherwise how else could she have so freely banned me?

                • marty mars …
                  19 July 2019 at 7:23 pm

                  Yeah she was a very astute judge of character and as we know you failed that test alwyn – and now you're putting the book into her? Shows what a nobody lowlife you are.

            • solkta 1.1.1.1.1.2
              19 July 2019 at 10:38 am

              Jenny is talking about ALL air travel.

              It would probably save them 10 or 15 hours travel a week

              Ummm, it only takes a couple of hours to fly from Wellington to any main centre. They don't commute daily.

              Each Green MP is "buddied" with a number of electorates so that all electorate are covered. Green MPs based in Auckland, for example, live relatively close to the electorates allocated to them and can travel then from Auckland.

              Parliament does not sit every week of the year and MPs are usually more productive if they can return to their home base.

              Like Jenny it seems that you have little knowledge of what Green MPs actually do.

              • alwyn …
                19 July 2019 at 11:06 am

                "Ummm, it only takes a couple of hours to fly from Wellington to any main centre. They don't commute daily."

                Firstly you don't seem to understand how much time is really involved in travelling by air. If they lived in Wellington it would take them about half an hour to get home.

                If they go to Auckland it will take them about 30 minutes to get to the Airport from Parliament. You are required to be there about 30 minutes before flight time. The flight to Auckland takes about 60 minutes. To get your luggage and get to the taxi stand takes another 15 minutes. Then it will take you 45 minutes to get home. That is 3 hours for a single flight to, or from home, as compared to 30 minutes for someone who is resident in Wellington

                As for not commuting daily. Well at times it looks as if they do. In 2018 the air travel expenses for a couple of the back bench Green MPs was.

                Ghahraman ran up $32,276 and Swarbrick $31,111. That is one hell of a lot of travel isn't it, for someone who is a junior MP?

                As for Parliament sitting. Well the House doesn't sit that much but there are Select Committees that sit even when the House isn't. And if they only come to Wellington occasionally how can they possibly run up those enormous travel bills? Each of them spends as much as a couple gets in New Zealand Super to live on for the year.

                While you are about it can you please tell us what any List MP really does that cannot be done just as well if they were resident in Wellington but could travel to anywhere else in the country when it was required.

                • solkta …
                  19 July 2019 at 11:46 am

                  List MPs travel around the country meeting with people and visiting sites that are relevant to their portfolios, and in the case of the Green MPs to their buddied electorates.

                  • alwyn …
                    19 July 2019 at 12:41 pm

                    Great. I am all in favour of that. I fact if you look at the last line of the comment you are replying to that is precisely what I am advocating. However they can start their travel in Wellington where I think they should live. Then they can rather more easily get home to see their families, they won't need taxpayer provided second homes in Wellington and they won't need to spend their time travelling vast distances between their home and their primary place of work.

                    Electorate MPs are in a totally different category. They have real electorates to deal with and not some phantom "buddy" electorate.

                    Incidentally where can I find what MP is associated as a "buddy" with which Electorate. The MPs seem to be very much associated with the large cities don't they. Of the 8 Green MPs there seem to be 4 in Auckland, 2 in Wellington, 1 in Christchurch and 1 (Logie) who doesn't seem to want to tell us.

                    Who are the buddy MPs for all the Electorates in the rest of the country? Surely Sage doesn't cover the whole of the South Island and there must be someone between Wellington and Auckland. There are an awful lot of people live there you know.

                • McFlock …
                  19 July 2019 at 7:31 pm

                  Maintaining community connections with people outside Wellington. It's a New Zealand government, not the Wellington Occupational Forces.

                  As for flight times, if it were that onerous more list mps would stay in wellington. But how many commute every day to the capital? I mean, it could probably be done (and you can actually get work done on a plane), but I suspect most would be like electorate MPs, so your commute time is 6 hours a week.

            • Morrissey 1.1.1.1.1.3
              19 July 2019 at 1:06 pm

              There used to be a contributor here who used the pseudonym of Weka. … That got her (or at least I think it was a her), to regularly ban me.

              You and me both, alwyn. She ran this place with an iron fist. For iron-headed refusal to engage, "Weka" took the biscuit…..

              https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/01/weka-has-go-at-john-pilger-aug-22-2015.html

              https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2019/07/that-foul-bag-of-wind-dr-phil-mcgraw.html

              https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/12/standardistas-debate-merits-or.html

              • vto …
                20 July 2019 at 5:51 am

                Me too. I refused to even look at this site after the way I was bullied and harangued. It was like a closed door and there was zero happiness on my part.

                But she isn't here to defend herself so… But I have wondered what happened to her, thanks for the links.

                • Incognito …
                  20 July 2019 at 10:57 am

                  A Moderator doesn’t need to defend themselves here but IMO they should explain and clarify if they have the time. The idea of moderation is to modify behaviour through self-moderation in the first instance. Alwyn is ‘on bail’ at the moment as you can see from my Moderation note left @ 1.1.1.1.1.

                • marty mars …
                  20 July 2019 at 11:36 am

                  Yeah it was so great when she was around and all the running dog cowards cowered in their kennels – ahh good times cheeky

                  • vto …
                    27 July 2019 at 6:32 am

                    yeah sure marty mars – you're a bully too with your sneering ways and instant and constant personal attacks.. the sort of thing that children are told off for…

            • Incognito 1.1.1.1.1.4
              20 July 2019 at 1:55 am

              See my Moderation note @ 10:17 AM.

            • alwyn 1.1.1.1.1.5
              20 July 2019 at 12:38 pm

              I wasn't complaining about her activities as a moderator. I was talking about her banning people who replied to her normal comments and who showed that her comments were, on occasion, in fact inaccurate.

              Does that mean that if a moderator, such as yourself, was to make a comment such as "John Key was jailed for 10 years for fraud" it would be impossible to point out that the statement was in fact false because that would be attacking a moderator?

              If that is the case can we please have a full list of all moderators. I will then never reply to any of them.

              [Moderating is an ‘art’, not an ‘exact science’. It is almost impossible to comment and moderate at the same time, especially in the same discussion thread. Many good Moderators who were (and still are) also good Authors have fallen into this trap. I actually don’t like moderating and I’d rather be commenting or, even better, writing posts.

              You knew that Weka was a commenter, Author, and Moderator. You were being a smart alec by asking about Electorate Offices knowing full well that the Greens didn’t have Electorate MPs. For this you got banned “regularly” [your word] by Weka, which suggests recidivist behaviour on your behalf.

              To me, it looks very much like you are now complaining about Weka’s moderating of you, not “people”; if Weka had been just another commenter you wouldn’t have complained about the bans you have received. Regardless, moderation is not up for debate and you have to accept it and move on. Weka cannot defend the comments and moderation of the past and you know this, which makes your comment a low and sly one in my eyes.

              You seem to have a problem with being told to modify your behaviour here and you don’t like to accept the consequences of your behaviour. Avoiding discussions with Moderators is not going to help much in this sense. In addition, your example is utter nonsense when you state “it would be impossible to point out that the statement was in fact false because that would be attacking a moderator”. Again, in my eyes, you come across as a smart alec – Incognito]

        • Kevin 1.1.1.2
          19 July 2019 at 10:54 am

          The day is fast approaching when change will be forced upon you, no matter who is in government.

    • A 1.2
      19 July 2019 at 7:53 am

      Unless this were adopted on mass (unlikely) it will do little other than inconvenience those who take part.

      I like the idea of more people working from home via the internet and avoid travel (especially as I live in Wgtn and worry about people trapped in the city after a big quake). It shouldn't need encouragement to do this but a tax incentive might help speed things along.

      • Peter Christchurh nz 1.2.1
        19 July 2019 at 9:21 am

        Except, the internet is a significant contributor to global warming, well established by research.

        • Muttonbird 1.2.1.1
          19 July 2019 at 10:23 am

          More of a contributor than both a fossil fuel powered journey and using the internet all day at work?

    • Sacha 1.3
      19 July 2019 at 7:59 am

      Thunberg lives somewhere conveniently well-supplied with rail to most other places she needs to be. Seen her visit the US yet?

      Leadership is more than you appear to think it is.

      • Jenny - How to Get there? 1.3.1
        19 July 2019 at 5:42 pm

        Sacha

        19 July 2019 at 7:59 am

        Thunberg lives somewhere conveniently well-supplied with rail to most other places she needs to be. Seen her visit the US yet?

        Leadership is more than you appear to think it is.

        A good leader leads from the front and never asks people to do something that they themselves would not be prepared to do.

        A good leader sets an example.

        Because of her leadership and example setting Greta Thunberg has been invited to address the United Nations Climate Change Summit in New York in September.

        Thunberg has announced that she intends to travel to New York by taking passage on a container ship, Or if that doesn't work out, make her address to the UN by tele-presence.

        A poor leader says do as I say, not as I do.

        We have way too much of this last type of leadership.

        Which probably goes some way to explain Greta Thunberg’s popularity.

        • Sacha 1.3.1.1
          19 July 2019 at 7:28 pm

          There is more than one way of leading well, including for political change. Whole body of literature about it even.

          • Jenny - How to Get there? 1.3.1.1.1
            20 July 2019 at 7:08 am

            ‘

            “There is no such thing as bad soldiers, only bad generals”

            Napoleon

    • Robert Guyton 1.4
      19 July 2019 at 9:34 am

      "None of them are electorate MPs, what's to stop them all moving to Wellington?"

      Their families?

      Their love of their turangawaewae?

      Their communities of support?

      Friends?

      Obligations to site-based projects, such as a farm or market garden?

      Responsibilities they might have at home, outside of their political obligations (they don't work 24 hours a day on parliamentary stuff, do they? There must be some time during the day for them to garden, wash their bicycles, make a salad etc?

    • johnm 1.5
      19 July 2019 at 10:40 am

      Yes! 🙂 Truly we need a Greta Thunberg here in New Zealand. For me it'd indicate our youth haven't already been crushed into soul dead conformity but have a divine spark of creativity and independence and integrity that'd possibly transform our society.

      • marty mars 1.5.1
        19 July 2019 at 8:53 pm

        "For me it'd indicate our youth haven't already been crushed into soul dead conformity…"

        lol wtf – I'm sure the youth thank you for your vote of confidence you wanker.

    • johnm 1.6
      19 July 2019 at 11:05 am

      sekhmetsdaughterThe time to change our ways is long past. When large groups of homo sap declared they were not part of Earth and All Our Relations, and that they had the right to take, and take, and take…without giving…that was when we were doomed to extinction. Perhaps, if our children en masse realize they are part of a huge whole, and decide that constant consumption is not a path to happiness, some may survive. We’re facing huge forces that are basically sociopathic. Giving up private cars, giving up urban sprawl, giving up war…won’t happen. See you on the other side of the Sixth Great Extinction. ( Our Planet has responded with immense power to our destruction we have front row seats to our own slow motion demise )

      NOAA's Finding That Last Month Was Hottest June Ever Recorded Bolsters Calls for Radical Climate Action

      "Action is urgently needed at the world, federal, state, and local levels to rapidly cut fossil fuel pollution and to protect and rebuild naturally stored carbon."

      https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/07/18/noaas-finding-last-month-was-hottest-june-ever-recorded-bolsters-calls-radical

    • johnm 1.7
      19 July 2019 at 11:12 am

      Aleph_Null

      1

      1h

      Humans pump CO2 into the atmosphere at a steadily-accellerating rate,doubling every 40 years, so the greenhouse forcing, and Earth’s energy imbalance, double every 40 years just as steadily. The reason the surface temperature anomaly goes up unsteadily is because more or less of that extra heat (around 90% of it) dives into the ocean every year. From there, tracking where the heat went gets hela complicated: ocean currents are stratified by temperature and salinity in wonderful ways – and some deep ocean currents cycle for centuries. If we were able to accurately measure the whole Earth’s temperature, including deep ocean, then every month would be a new record. The temperature increase, along with its accelleration, is inexorable (so long as CO2 pollution continues).

      But the heat we drop off in the ocean doesn’t just stay there. It keeps welling up, as ocean waters do, with inconvenient consequences such as destroying the ice cap PDQ. 2019’s melt season, up there in the neglected Arctic, is turning into a real monster.

      https://commons.commondreams.org/t/noaas-finding-that-last-month-was-hottest-june-ever-recorded-bolsters-calls-for-radical-climate-action/65835

    • Peter 1.8
      19 July 2019 at 1:43 pm

      There is a belief with some that the Green MPs should put their money where their mouths are and walk or ride bikes everywhere.

      Some of those also say that the PM should not take plane flights. Maybe the Green MPs could lead the charge to have no MPs fly anywhere or use transport powered by fossil fuels.

      Then again maybe all people who think that should show leadership themselves and get the community motivated. Their action in having all Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays carless would be the best way to put their own money where it should be.

      • Jenny - How to Get there? 1.8.1
        20 July 2019 at 6:57 am

        ‘
        “We need to do something, and act as if we are in a crisis, because otherwise people won't understand that we are in a crisis”.

        Greta Thunberg

        Grandma, what did you do about climate change when you were Prime Minister?'

        'Hello Darling, what a great question'

        Way back in 2019, when the Green Party, in response to the climate emergency, on principle banned all internal flights for the their MPs, as the leader of the country, I had to act immediately to prevent our parliamentary ally, the Green Party, becoming isolated, or put at any disadvantage, compared to the climate change denying parties.

        My first response as Prime Minister, was to pledge my party's full support for a Private Members Bill brought by the Green Party, to legislate to ban all domestic air travel for all government and opposition MPs.

        (As part of this package, and to win over our other government ally, the New Zealand First Party, in talks with the Finance Minister Grant Robertson we agreed to release emergency funding toward a New Zealand First initiative to double track the rail connection to Northland).

        Combined, these initiatives became a leading example to the world, and marked the beginning of the world wide switch away from commercial aviation, towards surface travel that you see today.

        I also supported legislation to move the subsidy for free domestic air travel, into supplying all MPs, (both government and opposition), with the latest video conferencing and IT suites, to put them more in touch with their constituents and each other without the need to travel as much.

        Happy birthday darling, I hope you like the mini-AI electric train set I bought you.

        • solkta 1.8.1.1
          20 July 2019 at 9:25 am

          And did she suspend elections and invoke martial law? Or did we get a National gummint a year later who then reversed this?

          • Jenny - How to Get there? 1.8.1.1.1
            20 July 2019 at 11:53 am

            No, the opposite was the case, and democracy was the winner.

            And like the anti-nuclear legislation before it – (which the Nats also opposed), as the argument got thrashed out in parliament and wider society fully for the very first time, the Nats had no reasonable rebuttal and the National Party was left looking wanting, they were faced with embracing these policies, or becoming unelectable.

            The Prime Ministers leadership was widely applauded around the world. As a result of international acclaim the coalition government became more unified and strengthened than ever.

            (Especially on the back of Prime Minister Ardern’s performance at the Oxford debate, where her comment I can smell the CO2 on your breath went into folklore).

            And Prime Minister Ardern went on to lead the country for a full three terms.

            • solkta 1.8.1.1.1.1
              20 July 2019 at 12:00 pm

              But there is reasonable rebuttal and not even the Greens would support this.

              • Jenny - How to Get there? …
                20 July 2019 at 7:34 pm

                solkta

                20 July 2019 at 12:00 pm

                But there is reasonable rebuttal…..

                If there is reasonable rebuttal, Solkta, what is it?

                Maybe you would like to make it now.

                So imagine yourself Solkta as a representative of the National Party arguing before the whole country that MPs should not be setting an example.

                Maybe you would like to make the case solkta, that business as usual, in this specific case air travel should continue at current levels?

                Or maybe you would like to make the case Solkta, that everyone should stop flying unless absolutely necessary, except MPs?

                solkta

                20 July 2019 at 12:00 pm

                …….not even the Greens would support this.

                I know the Green Party don't support cutting air travel, in this case by setting a leading example. But they should. This is what I have just been arguing they could be doing.

                How can anyone take them seriously when the Greens say ‘We are in a climate emergency’, if they don’t personally act like we are.

                To my mind emergency means taking drastic action.

  2. A 2
    19 July 2019 at 7:29 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/114320907/pension-its-like-a-lotto-win-for-kiwis-aged-65

    For those among us who complain about the low level of payout the pension provides, please think about those on Supported Living Payment who are long term beneficiaries, often unable to save for their own retirements, and who experience a sense of overwhelming relief when they become eligible for the much higher payout of the pension. ♡

    • A 2.1
      19 July 2019 at 7:33 am

      Nobody is listening yet, but with enough people talking to the Human Rights Commission maybe we can at least get this recorded as a serious issue

      RCPD section being breached:

      Article 28

      1. States Parties recognize the right of persons with disabilities to an adequate standard of living for themselves and their families, including adequate food, clothing and housing, and to the continuous improvement of living conditions, and shall take appropriate steps to safeguard and promote the realization of this right without discrimination on the basis of disability.

      =====
      2. States Parties recognize the right of persons with disabilities to social protection and to the enjoyment of that right without discrimination on the basis of disability, and shall take appropriate steps to safeguard and promote the realization of this right, including measures:

      ( a) To ensure equal access by persons with disabilities to clean water services, and to ensure access to appropriate and affordable services, devices and other assistance for disability-related needs;
      …
      ( c) To ensure access by persons with disabilities and their families living in situations of poverty to assistance from the State with disability elated expenses, including adequate training, counselling, financial assistance and respite care;
      ….

      ( d) To ensure access by persons with disabilities to public housing programmes;
      …..

      ( e) To ensure equal access by persons with disabilities to retirement benefits and programmes.

      =====

      Please encourage the government to implement all recommendations of the WEAG report as soon as possible. Cheers.

    • Rosemary McDonald 2.2
      19 July 2019 at 8:21 am

      Having subsisted on the SLP for a number of years whilst sinking into the mire of debt trying to keep hearth and home together and to maintain health and welfare in a system that is hostile to very high needs disabled (the Misery of Health) I can attest to the fact that living on the National Super is a comparative cakewalk.

    • The Chairman 2.3
      19 July 2019 at 12:04 pm

      At the very least, Supported Living Payments should be equal to the pension rate.

      Being unable to work due to being disabled or falling ill (for the long term) assigns one to a life of fiscal hardship on top of the difficulties they already suffer. Most people I've spoken too (left and right) find this unacceptable, yet Governments of both stripes have done nothing to address this.

      Why is that? Can anyone answer that?

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.3.1
        19 July 2019 at 12:28 pm

        Why is that? Can anyone answer that?

        TC. Ask yourself a further question. "Why have successive governments been happy to see the huge disparities between those disabled through accident and covered by ACC and those disabled since birth or though an illness become firmly embedded to the point of acceptability?

        Hint. It has its roots way back when those who were born 'perfect and healthy' and who tragically were disabled through some kind of injury (work, war, sports etc) were considered more worthy of support than those poor unfortunate 'incurables and cripples'.

        Now I'm pretty sure the fearless warriors of the Third Reich were not trundled off in their wheelchairs to the camps.

        https://www.ushmm.org/information/exhibitions/online-exhibitions/special-focus/nazi-persecution-of-the-disabled

        • Pat 2.3.1.1
          19 July 2019 at 12:37 pm

          While likely an accurate assessment I doubt you will ever receive confirmation from anyone, even if they are honest enough to admit it to themselves

        • The Chairman 2.3.1.2
          19 July 2019 at 12:44 pm

          Those born perfectly healthy can later become ill and end up disabled due to their illness. Yet, you'e right. There are huge disparities between those disabled through accident and covered by ACC and those disabled since birth.

          However, though your suggestion holds some merit, one would think we've come a long way (albeit not far enough) since the doctrine of the Third Reich.

          • Pat 2.3.1.2.1
            19 July 2019 at 12:48 pm

            “However, though your suggestion holds some merit, one would think we’ve come a long way (albeit not far enough) since the doctrine of the Third Reich. ”

            one would ‘hope ‘but if we examine history we might conclude otherwise

            • The Chairman 2.3.1.2.1.1
              19 July 2019 at 1:12 pm

              Your comments are somewhat vague, Pat.

              Do you believe Eugenics is somewhat embedded and people won't admit it? Moreover, this disparity (between age and forms of disability) in how people are treated is a result of that?

              • Pat …
                19 July 2019 at 1:18 pm

                Vague?…wouldnt have thought so. History both distant and recent, is littered with examples of "survival of the fittest' thinking especially when the pressure for resources comes on.

                And funny you should mention eugenics given its history in NZ and recent tentative steps exploring its themes again

                • The Chairman …
                  19 July 2019 at 1:41 pm

                  This isn't about survival of the fittest, Pat. This is about the disparity (between people born with disabilities or those who have fallen ill opposed to the elderly or someone who has become disabled via an accident) in how they are financially treated by the state. Therefore, what do you think is the reason/s behind that?

                  • Pat …
                    19 July 2019 at 1:51 pm

                    Would have thought that well covered by Rosemary's post and my reply to it …an underlying sense that those born disabled are inferior/of no use or a burden whereas those disabled by accident could be myself

                    • The Chairman …
                      19 July 2019 at 2:20 pm

                      Underlying sense that those born disabled are inferior/of no use or a burden whereas those disabled by accident could be myself

                      The underlying sense that those born disabled are inferior doesn't explain why healthy people who later become ill are also treated differently than someone who falls victim to or has an accident.

                      Nevertheless, are you saying the Government hold this underlying sense, thus believe those born disabled are inferior, of no use or a burden?

                  • Pat …
                    19 July 2019 at 2:34 pm

                    Oh dear…nevermind, on this occasion I shall indulge you but if you wish to seriously discuss the topic the it would help if you read what I write rather than placing your own spin on it.

                    I havnt mentioned either disparity between illness and accident, nor government…though would suggest that in that instance it is purely a financial decision, whereas the original point as raised by Rosemary re born diasbled v resulting disability and subsequent attitudes I suggest that it is widespread and therefore will be found in all segments of society including government, civil service and the medical profession.

                    As previously stated I think this supported by historical acts.

                    Now should you wish to continue there is no need to rush to reply as I have a job to do and will be away for a couple of hours.

                    • The Chairman …
                      19 July 2019 at 3:31 pm

                      Don't be an egg, Pat. I wasn't spinning anything. Merely trying to clarify what you are saying. Hence, the questions.

                      While you may not have mentioned disparity between illness and accident, nor government, clearly that was what I was asking you about. To which you replied: "Would have thought that well covered by Rosemary's post and my reply to it." But as I went on to show, it wasn't.

                      As for your recent answer, why do you believe it is a purely financial decision? And who's financial interest is being served here? Taxpayers? It isn't in their interest if they ever fall ill. And that could happen to anyone at any given time.

                      As for the underlying sense being widespread, you must believe it's particularly rife in Government of both stripes for it to be preventing change? Apart from this discussion, I haven't spoken to anyone who believes those born disabled are inferior, of no use or a burden, thus must be fiscally punished. So where is your evidence this belief (they must be fiscally punished) is widespread?

                      Anybody here feel we must fiscally punish the disabled?

                  • Pat …
                    19 July 2019 at 6:07 pm

                    Well that was obviously a misjudgement on my part.

                    Have a good evening

                    • The Chairman …
                      19 July 2019 at 10:23 pm

                      I have no option but to accept your graceful departure from the discussion, Pat. Nonetheless, disappointed you couldn't face questioning of your position.

                      A good evening to you to sir.

                  • Rosemary McDonald …
                    19 July 2019 at 10:02 pm

                    I haven't spoken to anyone who believes those born disabled are inferior, of no use or a burden, thus must be fiscally punished. So where is your evidence this belief (they must be fiscally punished) is widespread?

                    You too, TC, really need to get out more. Sharing a life with a person with an obvious physical disability you have no idea of the number of times it has been made clear to him and me how more acceptable his disability is because he was not born that way. Seriously….you obviously have no idea. The number of times folk have been outraged that by mere dint of a date he is not under ACC. Because if you ever want proof, absolute proof, of how little New Zealanders value those not disabled through injury you only have to compare the amount spent on each group in the way of treatment, equipment, medicines, home support, therapy, travel, vehicles, home modifications etc, etc, etc.

                    Easy for me to do because this is my life….but in one area….that of home based care…for one year ACC was paying over $20,000 per month for a tetraplegic's care. In the same year, the Miserly of Health paid zero dollars for my partner's care (the same level of injury and same age) and the Ministry of Social Development paid me a benefit of about $200 per week.

                    Out of that income we also had to fund for ourselves a raft of other stuff that ACC would routinely fund for their tetraplegic clients.

                    A study, yes an actual study found that comparing household incomes of ACC spinal impaired and MOH spinal impaired the ACC group enjoyed household incomes more than twice tht of the non ACC group.

                    But hey, there are not that many kids being born with spina bifida anymore because most parents choose to abort them. Making Michael Laws positively orgasmic with delight. Because as we all remember…when Laws did that whole 'You'd be mad not to abort your disabled baby' thing there could be no complaint to the Human Rights Commission because then there were few protections for disabled people against hate speech that advocated violence. There are not many more now.

                    Little know factoid….ACC disabled are entitled to supports. Ministry of health disabled are entitled to nothing.
                    (Apologies for the rant.)

                    • The Chairman …
                      19 July 2019 at 10:18 pm

                      You don't have to apologies to me, Rosemary. I know you have lived through it.

                      Because if you ever want proof, absolute proof, of how little New Zealanders value those not disabled through injury you only have to compare the amount spent on each group in the way of treatment, equipment, medicines, home support, therapy, travel, vehicles, home modifications etc, etc, etc.

                      While that is proof of how little value the Government places on those not disabled through injury, it doesn't prove why. Why are they treating people so differently?

                      I've never heard anybody say it's because they were born that way, thus they must be fiscally punished.

                    • Rosemary McDonald …
                      19 July 2019 at 10:44 pm

                      @ TC…no reply button.

                      A former friend, an ACC client, once chided me after I was a little short at her complaining because ACC was making her wait for a month for the funding for her new modified Nissan Patrol 4wd. I had somewhat snarkily asked how she thought young Sally (not her real name) felt knowing that there's no way in hell she'd ever get funding for a self drive vehicle being, as she was, a young adult with spina bifida.

                      Cue an un reasonable level of defensive outrage…."But! But, I'm being compensated by ACC because I have lost something! Sally never had it so doesn't deserve to be compensated! "

                      Another stand out was while my man was having a spider bite wound dealt to in hospital. The four registered nurses doing the dressing (it was a bad woundcrying) were talking about a recent story about a woman trying to get ACC cover for her daughter's spina bifida because had the condition been picked up on a scan she would have had an abortion. These nurses went on and on about the hideous physical ramifications of spina bifida and how these kids were better off not being born. When we pointed out that Peter too was paralysed. and at a much higher level of lesion (therefore more foobarred) than most with sb and did they think that he would be better off dead? They said "Oh, no!! You were born normal".) As if that made any difference. We then went on to impart a few home truths. We also pointed out that if the Ministry of Health was willing to give those with spina bifida equal access to treatment and therapies enjoyed by ACC funded paraplegics then the outcomes for the spina bifida people would be much, much better. They left, did the older RNs. But the young student nurse held back. She had been born with spina bifida despite her mother having been advised to abort. To look at her you would not have an inkling. Her colleagues had not a clue and and she needed, for obvious reasons, to keep this vital part of herself secret.

                      Its there TC, everywhere.

                    • The Chairman …
                      20 July 2019 at 1:32 am

                      These nurses went on and on about the hideous physical ramifications of spina bifida and how these kids were better off not being born.

                      As I can't speak for them, I'm speculating here. But to me what you described sounds like the nurses were being cruel in a nice way – ie better not to be born than to suffer a lifetime. Now while people will have their own opinions on that notion (better not to be born than to suffer a lifetime) it's not the same as people willingly wanting to fiscally punish someone simply because they were born with a disability opposed to via an accident.

          • Rosemary McDonald 2.3.1.2.2
            19 July 2019 at 12:55 pm

            Those born perfectly healthy can later become ill and end up disabled …yes, and there is a tendency to either blame these illnesses on genetics or some kind of irresponsible action or inaction by the sufferer.

            Whatever, our 'envy of the world' no-fault ACC scheme, either unintentionally or by design, perpetuates that 'inferior being' and 'less worthy' narrative.

            You're right, we haven't come any where near far enough towards changing this.

  3. reason 3
    19 July 2019 at 7:43 am

    I wonderf tRump would call these germans traitors …. to their 'proud' past / race

    rumps daddy was a proud klansman ….

    The bitchute link avoids youtube r18 censorship / hassles

    Enjoy … its more stimulating than caffeine ..

    https://www.bitchute.com/video/OKBk6xjaE9KW/

  4. Sacha 4
    19 July 2019 at 8:04 am

    Chumpy won't stop being a nasty racist but his mouthiness about it may help minimise some of the consequences: https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1151487133904986117

    • Morrissey 4.1
      19 July 2019 at 1:01 pm

      Interesting fact from the comments section re the destruction of the Twin Towers on 9/11:

      I will never forget that on a phone interview during that time, Trump glibly said that he had the tallest building in NY as a result.

    • Bewee 4.2
      19 July 2019 at 2:33 pm

      I think he is more xenophobic than racist, Likewise his tweet if racist does not in necessity make him a racist What is a racist anyway the loony left have so abused the word it is becoming meaningless to most people, Hell even Nancy Pelosi is a racist now

      [On 15 July, I asked you to leave the sockpoppets to the moderators and stick to one alias yourself. The same day, Lynn banned you for two weeks for starting a flame war. You have now deliberately tried to bypass the ban and used a sockpoppet, and bad one at that. I add another two months for using a sockpoppet, another two months for trying to bypass the ban, and another two months for treating the moderators as fools. Because I feel generous today and I feel like it, I add another six months. This means we might see you again in a year’s time. Bye for now – Incognito]

  5. Sanctuary 5
    19 July 2019 at 8:06 am

    An interesting backgrounder on the UK Labour Lords who have launched the latest round of innuendo based smearing of Jeremy Corbyn.

    https://novaramedia.com/2019/07/18/the-labour-right-prefers-a-johnson-government-to-a-corbyn-one-its-time-to-replace-them/

    the title says it all really. The Labour right would rather have a sycophantically pro-Israel Boris Johnson government than a critical Corbyn one.

    And it is increasingly obvious to any observer that the (neo)"liberal" establishment of white collar managerialists that reads the Guardian prefer the establishment option of the Lib-Dems to the idea of a transformational left wing government under Labour.

    The power of the establishment forces lining up against Labour in the UK are awesome, and tells you all you need to know about how threatened they feel by Corbyn.

    • Wayne 5.1
      19 July 2019 at 8:19 am

      I am inclined to agree with the author of the article. Britain probably does need a general election. Too much uncertainty at the moment, and not enough of a mandate, especially with a change of Prime Minister. I reckon Boris would win.

      • reason 5.1.1
        19 July 2019 at 11:23 am

        I reckon wayne would vote for Boris ….

        I also reckons rumps terrific endorsement of that marvelous man Boris ..will hack the election …

        A few more false anti-semitic smears against Corbyn … will also help him no end …

        Hopefully our Labour party offers him some support this time around too ….

      • Bearded Git 5.1.2
        19 July 2019 at 12:47 pm

        ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ….rolling around on floor……your sense of humour is improving Wayne.

        Next you will be telling me "let 'em leave" will be re-elected.

      • joe90 5.1.3
        19 July 2019 at 1:32 pm

        I reckon Boris would win.

        A petulant toddler on one side of the pond and a drunken horse on the other. Marvelous.

        https://twitter.com/EmmaKennedy/status/1151551054028427269

    • Bearded Git 5.2
      19 July 2019 at 12:43 pm

      So true Sanc….thanks for the link…Blairism lives on.

  6. Sacha 6
    19 July 2019 at 8:07 am

    Australia also grappling with rampant wage theft in their hospitality industry: https://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace/wage-theft-is-a-business-model-let-s-criminalise-it-20190718-p528c4.html

    The Calombaris penalty of $200,000 in restitution is dismally low and a reflection of how weak our laws are. The main penalty for these rich men appears to be public shame.

    They get to keep their fortunes and spend them, if they so choose, on a public relations rehabilitation.

    Too often the exploited workers – many of whom are temporary migrants – get nothing or a fraction of what they are entitled to.

  7. Rosemary McDonald 7
    19 July 2019 at 8:17 am

    With what little respect I had for this Government fast waning, I call bullshit on the recent Grand Announcement that they are going to repeal the Part 4A amendment to the Public Health and Disability Act and start treating family carers more fairly.

    1. I recently communicated with Julie Anne Genter's office and was told…

    "We can only repeal Part 4A when we know what will replace it"

    Wrong. If this government is speaking truly when it claims it will treat family carers fairly and without discriminating there is absolutely no need at all to replace the Part 4A amendment with anything.

    Simply… The payment would be madefor explicit roles required within customised client care plans. Family carers could have other paid employment. The only requirement for a family member to receive payment for care work would be that they provide the designated services.

    As the family member would be contracted to undertake specific tasks, they would be paid the market rate for the tasks being performed. In other words, payment would equate to that received by workers delivering formal care services.

    https://women.govt.nz/sites/public_files/NACEW-Financial-support-for-family-carers-2008.pdf

    2. The real issues, which this Government is proudly carrying on the tradition of its predecessors by ignoring, are a) the inefficiencies, inconsistencies and often adversarial nature of the NASC Needs Assessment process, and b) the lack of any real entitlement to funded supports to meet assessed needs, and c) the massive disparities in access to funded supports between ACC and Ministry of Health Disability Support Services.

    None of these are insurmountable, but it would appear that the good old Miserly of Health have convinced yet another crop of newbies in Parliament that they are.

    Nearly three hundred family carers of MOH;DSS clients were being paid despite the policy stating it was not allowed and as one of the Judges in one of the many court hearing commented 'The sky did not fall.'. These family carers did not have 'special' policies or have discriminatory employment conditions. No, they were paid…

    for explicit roles required within customised client care plans. Family carers could have other paid employment. The only requirement for a family member to receive payment for care work would be that they provide the designated services.

    As the family member would be contracted to undertake specific tasks, they would be paid the market rate for the tasks being performed. In other words, payment would equate to that received by workers delivering formal care services.

    I challenge this Government to do the right thing and stop the discriminatory treatment of family carers once and for all.

    Have the guts, the puku, to address the real issues.

    • reason 7.1
      19 July 2019 at 10:56 am

      Thanks Rosemary … its good to have honest people cut through PR spin and inform us..

      Its a justice issue that could end up affecting any of us ….

      And its about priorities …. No more multi million welfare to Americas cup crap … No more buying Billions of war toys …. to keep the wayne mapps and sir kiddy killer john key 'realists' happy.

      Its quite simple …. spend money on New Zealand people who need and Deserve it.

      Julie Anne Genter needs to get her values back ….. or get out of the way and let someone who has some do her job.
      …. Shame on her … and the Green party who she represents/

      • Rosemary McDonald 7.1.1
        19 July 2019 at 11:16 am

        I'm not blaming JAG for this. She will not be making the decisions here. The poor woman merely has the misfortune to have the portfolio this festering sore is attached to.

        This Government has failed like its predecessors to break apart the corporate mafia that is the Ministry of Health.

        All we are asking is that family carers delivering the assessed care are treated no differently than the carers employed by the Ministry's Contracted Providers.

        Especially since some of us are performing care tasks that those Contracted Providers refuse to perform because the Miserly will not fund that level of advanced care.

        • reason 7.1.1.1
          20 July 2019 at 12:51 pm

          Thanks for the considered reply … I guess I'm just dissapointed in the spin versus being honest … as at least when their honest its easier to get on the path to fixing things.

          The last Nact Govt did a lot of sneaky 'sliver' privitisation in health … meals / hospital food being one area …. and the Ministry's Contracted Providers another … in the Wellington area at least.

          This used to be administered / run by a church affiliated group … who lost the contract to a commercial outfit …. and they were a bit like Nova pay in regards to this lady I know, who is paid to care for her stroke affected mother aged in her early 70's …..

          She was only paid / contracted, for 14 hours care / home help … but she did at least 35hrs or more .

          The private company was named Green cross at first ,,, which I thought a bit cheeky given the long established 'green cross' medical cannabis organisation … But it quickly underwent a name change to Geneva health …. and I think its been taken over again…

          I seem to recall a $ 10 Million profit in a trading year … as Geneva Health.

          But back to her pay ,,,,,I audited her pay slips after being asked ,,, despite static hours every week, her pay was up and down … or more down than anything… . I tallied up 70 odd hours missing over a year and a bit.

          She got what she was owed …The proof was on their payslips …but I wondered how widespread this 'cribbing' of hours was… for all the other workers under them.,,, I doubt they were overpaying others.

  8. WeTheBleeple 8
    19 July 2019 at 8:19 am

    Fonterra pledges no more coal boilers, bringing the planned change forward over a decade.

    While existing boilers still operate more pressure is needed. Existing public pressure appears to be working.

    This is minor PR, remove all the coal (and start to clean up your fleet) and you'll begin creating customer loyalty like you've never seen before.

    Advertising sucks huge money from business to annoy people and push psychological ploys for their dollars. It is irritating as billboards and print, and outright intrusive in digital media/television. There is a better way than trying to manipulate.

    Operate with integrity and watch your loyal customer base soar.

    • Robert Guyton 8.1
      19 July 2019 at 9:21 am

      No more coal burners?

      They could hardly propose to install any new ones; the outcry would be deafening.

      Fonterra are making hay from something that would have not have happened anyway, imo. They are delaying the change from burning huge amounts of lignite brown coal at Edendale for as long as possible, even when alternative waste-wood systems are available. I expect the other forces on the industry are saying, hold out as long as possible, this run won't last forever anyway. In the meantime, their coal-burning plants are spewing greenhouse gases out at an appalling rate but because they're invisible, no one notices.

      • Sacha 8.1.1
        19 July 2019 at 9:23 am

        Haven't they just installed a batch of them anyway?

        • Robert Guyton 8.1.1.1
          19 July 2019 at 9:26 am

          If greenhouse gases were black, there'd be daily protests along the boundary fences of these milk-powder plants. The billowing black clouds would advertise their climate crimes for all to see.

          • Bruce 8.1.1.1.1
            19 July 2019 at 10:09 am

            I have posted before that in the late 70's the Hikurangi Dairy factory was run on a wood chip fired boiler, it had problems but 40 years should have resolved these and they could be in use every where. I believe growing trees to burn and growing more trees does not add to the greenhouse gases because of it is a cycle and there is balance , the problem comes from burning the sequesterd carbon from coal and oil. I may be wrong.

            The factory was awarded an environmental award. I took some pictures of the yellow food colouring from the cheezel powder flowing into the river from the factory outlet with the powder from the dryer billowing out behind and then the black smoke from the boiler behind this. I think these are the sort of pictures you are referring too.

    • Sacha 8.2
      19 July 2019 at 9:24 am

      "more pressure is needed" 🙂

  9. Rosemary McDonald 9
    19 July 2019 at 8:55 am

    Thank god someone has finally had the guts to call bullshit on apportioning blame to so called 'anti-vaxxers' for the falling immunisation rates.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12250703

    Yes it is behind the iniquitous Herald paywall. But what the writers ( Kirsty Johnston and Chris Knox ) found …

    Plummeting vaccination rates are being driven largely by the failure to immunise babies born into poor or Māori families – not by parents deliberately opting out.

    (Yes, I succumbed and paid up. Only so I could read articles by one of the abovenamed. I do hope that particular journalist is being paid a bonus for being bait. wink)

    • One Two 9.1
      19 July 2019 at 1:34 pm

      Historical Context of Cover Up.

      FOIA document releases and leaked docs from closed door sessions.

    • ianmac 9.2
      19 July 2019 at 1:40 pm

      I read somewhere this morning that immunising children against measles will be compulsory as all schools are state schools and home schooling is banned. Germany I think.

      • One Two 9.2.1
        19 July 2019 at 1:51 pm

        Could well have been Germany.

        Certainly that nations history with genocidal medical experimentation including vaccinations, would preclude forced medication.

        Same applies to any nations government which seeks to force medicate human beings againt their will.

        • Anne 9.2.1.1
          19 July 2019 at 4:49 pm

          To equate Nazi Germany with the Germany of today is disingenuous (to put it nicely) or downright despicable (to put it bluntly).

          When idiots choose to believe a ragtag bunch of quacks who inhabit the internet – as opposed to highly qualified scientists who have been through umpteen years of study and research – and accordingly place the lives of people (children in particular) in considerable danger, then it is incumbent on the government to take measures to prevent them from spreading their nutbar conspiracies.

          Any government that does not do so is reneging on their responsibility to safeguard the citizens of their respective countries.

          • One Two 9.2.1.1.1
            19 July 2019 at 6:25 pm

            Should Germany return to forced medical procedures by using strategies such as coersion, that nation will indeed have completed a full circle , and become , once again…a fa**ist state.

            Against its entire new born, infant and young persons population.

            Thereby far exceeding population penetration of experimental medical acts carried out on children in the naz* era.

            There is no requirement for me to address your uninformed position on vaccination, as that speaks for itself through your commentary…

            And we have had that discussion multiple times previously. Haven’t we.

            If you are so inclined to uplift your understanding on that subject and the historical context, there is a link in my response to RM at 9.1.

            • McFlock 9.2.1.1.1.1
              19 July 2019 at 6:47 pm

              Funny world you live in, when saving lives is worse than murdering millions of people.

            • Bazza64 9.2.1.1.1.2
              19 July 2019 at 7:12 pm

              Nothing that one of your Dodgy homeopathic potions won't fix I bet!

          • Rosemary McDonald 9.2.1.1.2
            19 July 2019 at 9:12 pm

            Anne. I would have though at least you would have at least read the few lines of the Herald article I linked to which explains in some detail…with multi colour graphs and everything…what I said in my comment.

            So-called anti-vaxxers are not to blame for declining immunisation rates.

            So why are you banging on about the idiots (who) choose to believe a ragtag bunch of quacks who inhabit the internet when the article is referring to research done by an actual live New Zealand scientist…Associate professor Dr Nikki Turner, Director of the Immunisation Advisory Centre?

            You are right about one thing though…any government which continues to ignore the real reasons why parents are not accessing healthcare of all kinds is is reneging on their responsibility to safeguard the citizens …

        • Bazza64 9.2.1.2
          19 July 2019 at 6:20 pm

          How nasty of the Germans to vaccinate people & prevent them from their "Right" to contract Polio & spend a few years in an Iron Lung courtesy of the taxpayer !

    • McFlock 9.3
      19 July 2019 at 2:15 pm

      I think they're drawing too much from the data. Access to primary healthcare is a big equity issue, but isn't the only issue.

      The question I'd be trying to find an answer to is whether socioeconomically alienated people are particularly vulnerable to the antivaxx BS. ISTR they showed the movie up in Northland and a few other High-dep places. Maybe run a similar analysis to primary-healthcare-avoidable hospitalisations, and see if there's much of a difference. That might help start looking for an attributable risk level.

      The existence of one factor doesn't preclude the existence of another factor in producing a particular outcome, and sometimes those factors have a multiplicative effect, not just additive.

      tl,dr: if antivaxx BS had no effect, they wouldn’t do it. like tobacco advertisers.

      • Andre 9.3.1
        19 July 2019 at 2:33 pm

        A big reason anti-vax BS artists do it is coz it's a good little earner for them.

      • Rosemary McDonald 9.3.2
        19 July 2019 at 9:26 pm

        The question I'd be trying to find an answer to is whether socioeconomically alienated people are particularly vulnerable to the antivaxx BS.

        Why don't you step outdoors McFlock, and go and speak with some of those people and find out?

        I assume that you too read the article I linked to entire?

        Whatever your personal feelings about vaccines and that you believe they are all safe and effective is besides the point.

        Most of the people whose children are unvaccinated are not choosing not to vaccinate, just as they are not choosing to take their children to the doctor or to get prescriptions filled or to buy healthy food so their children are better able to fight off illnesses. They are also not attending hospital appointments…and not because they were told by some nutbar on the internet not too.

        It is too easy, nay downright fucking lazy to simply ignore the research and go off on your (and others') usual anti anti-vaxxers rant.

        They really aren't as influential as you think.

        Now, what do you know about the rates of rheumatic fever in Aotearoa and how can you twist the narrative and blame the same on anti-vaxxers?

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/audio/2018686731/nz-s-heart-breaker-rheumatic-fever-rates-on-the-rise

        Maybe one day you'll get it that the prejudice you (and the negligent DHB heads) display just might be part of the problem.

        • McFlock 9.3.2.1
          19 July 2019 at 10:17 pm

          Anecdata is no data. I doubt that any feedback I get from the wilds of Dunedin will be applicable to Northland.

          I read the article, and it's an overreach. From memory, some areas/dhbs do not display the same deprivation inequity for vaccination as other DHBs. What makes those ones different?

          As the article says, a quarter of the effect is documented as explicit refusal. How big is the gap for the implicit refusal, though – the Did Not Attends because the baby seemed fine and the jabs weren't worth the trouble of crossing those other primary healthcare barriers?

          I'm not attributing everything to antivaxxers. Nor should you keep trying to exonerate them from any responsibility. 4.3% outright decline. That's well in excess of contraindication levels.

          • Rosemary McDonald 9.3.2.1.1
            19 July 2019 at 10:22 pm

            I read the article, and it's an overreach.

            Well, whew! Thank god for that. No need for us to worry about piffling old deprivation. Silly Dr Turner and her wacky ideas!

            • McFlock 9.3.2.1.1.1
              19 July 2019 at 10:38 pm

              Yeah, lucky I never said that last bit, eh.

              We all know there are socioeconomic inequities when it comes to primary healthcare. We all know there are antivax nutbars.

              Wouldn't it be fucking weird if they actually interacted with each other to multiply their inequitable effect, like how smoking and unsafe sleeping arrangements multiply each other as risk factors for SUDI and having an effect much larger than the risk of each being added together? Gosh, but then we might have to still address the infective influence of paranoid jerks.

    • One Two 9.4
      19 July 2019 at 2:47 pm

      Former Director of the NIH – Federal Health Agency

      The government has said in a report by the Institute of Medicine, and by the way I’m a member of the Institute of Medicine, I love the Institute of Medicine… but a report in 2004, it basically said,

      ‘Do not pursue susceptibility groups, don’t look for those patients whose children who may be vulnerable.

      I really take issue with that conclusion. The reason why they didn’t want to look for those susceptibility groups is because they are afraid is that if they found them, however big or small they were, that that would scare the public away.

      … I don’t think you should ever turn your back on any scientific hypothesis because you’re afraid of what it might show.

      One never should shy away from science.

      One should never shy away from getting causality information in a setting in which you can test it.

      Populations do not test causality, they test association.

      You have to go into the laboratory and you have to do designed research studies in animal

      • higherstandard 9.4.1
        19 July 2019 at 4:22 pm

        'It is sad that our societal memory is so brief and mutable that there is now a resurgence of diseases that maim and kill, despite these being preventable. If you speak to your grandparents and great grandparents, they will tell you of this. Listen to their wisdom. Or read a few sensible books from the past.

        But some would rather listen to conspiracy theorists with flecks of foam on their lips. Even allowing for their deceived state, there’s one point they miss…

        It’s about balance of risk.

        Vaccines do not cause autism. But even if they did cause it in a tiny number of people—so small that we’ve failed to detect it despite diligent scrutiny—the balance of risk would still be in favour of stamping out these diseases, diseases that have caused untold misery and death.

        Denying this balance would be like legislators mandating that a “cancer warning” appears on every coffee cup because of a tiny theoretical risk of cancer, despite the clear overall benefits of coffee.

        Oh, I see, they’ve just done that in California.

        I sometimes weep for humanity.'

  10. francesca 10
    19 July 2019 at 9:01 am

    Anyone out there still waiting for their Assange schadenfreude itch to be scratched ?

    You'll be waiting for a long time yet

    https://21stcenturywire.com/2019/07/06/swedish-prosecutor-says-its-not-on-the-cards-to-interview-assange-after-hanging-arrest-warrant-over-him-for-seven-years/

    Seems they need to analyse and "review" the evidence

    7 years hasn't been enough

    • Kevin 10.1
      19 July 2019 at 10:59 am

      It was never about interviewing Assange. It was all about getting him out of the embassy and extradition to the US.

  11. francesca 11
    19 July 2019 at 9:10 am

    And somewhat related…I'm beginning to feel sickened by our eager participation in American wars

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/18-07-2019/the-trouble-with-nzs-role-at-the-biggest-us-bombing-base-in-the-middle-east/

    • Morrissey 11.1
      19 July 2019 at 2:32 pm

      The New Zealand "Defence" Force is busy trying to confuse politicians about its role in the killing of Afghan villagers….

      Politicians were shown edited footage of the Hit and Run raid which throws into question the NZDF version of events, reports the NZ Herald’s (paywalled) David Fisher. 12 seconds of footage were deleted from the logs of the US helicopter, which showed civilians sheltering behind a building that had been hit by stray high-explosive rounds. But when the NZDF presented the footage at Beehive screenings, politicians shown it are now split on whether they were told it had been edited. The footage was used as part of an NZDF campaign to demonstrate an inquiry wasn’t needed.

      https://thespinoff.co.nz/the-bulletin/10-07-2019/the-bulletin-fresh-footage-revelations-around-operation-burnham/

  12. soddenleaf 12
    19 July 2019 at 11:20 am

    Send him back to socialist nirvana, Scandinavia. Exporting their potty mouths has made them stable rich and equal. Send out potty mouths to the state's too.

  14. The Chairman 14
    19 July 2019 at 11:43 am

    The number of hardships grants, helping people pay for everyday items like food and housing, issued by the Government has skyrocketed.

    The Government says the problem isn't new and that the demand was there before they came into office.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/07/we-don-t-get-enough-hardships-give-outs-and-benefits-skyrocket.html

    With this acknowledgment, one wonders why they (the Government) haven't increased core benefit rates? The Government's own working group even told them so. So what's the hold up?

    Moreover, how much extra money and time is it costing the Government to process this massive increase in individual hardship claims? Wouldn't it be far easier, thus cost taxpayers far less, to simply increase core benefit rates?

    Does the Government like having massive weekly queues outside welfare offices being plastered all over the media? One would think not. So when are they going to do something about this growing problem?

    And by the way, where are the Greens on this issue? MIA.

    • The Chairman 14.1
      19 July 2019 at 2:30 pm

      Latest tweet from Marama

      “Need cuppa and lie down.”

      Big night watching the netball.

      Seems (along with parliamentary questions) she is leaving it to Simon Bridges to stand up for the poor?

      “Hardship grants are through the roof. That’s because of the taxes and the costs that the Government is piling on,” says Opposition leader Simon Bridges.

      • Fireblade 14.1.1
        19 July 2019 at 5:12 pm

        Simon says….

        Pretending he gives a fuck.

        • The Chairman 14.1.1.1
          19 July 2019 at 5:26 pm

          Pretending he gives a fuck.

          No doubt. Just an excuse (albeit there is some truth in it) for him to beat down on the Government. But at least he fronted on it.

          Whereas, the Greens are meant to be fighting this fight, yet we hear little or nothing from them on it.

          Last time I saw Marama she said she was working hard to get more recommendations (from the welfare working group) through. And we haven’t heard anything more from her about it since. Bit like when she said she was going to sort out the solar power issue for state home tenants. Once again, nada.

          • McFlock 14.1.1.1.1
            19 July 2019 at 5:39 pm

            What truth? What taxes and costs are piling on?

            Maybe the hardship grant applications are increasing because now there's a hope that they'll come through. And the "delay" you your preferred benefit increase is maybe down to the budget or having to wait to see what the nature of the problem actually is – median grant and frequency of applications, regional differences – so they know how much to lift base rates by?

            Thanks for your concern, though.

            • The Chairman 14.1.1.1.1.1
              19 July 2019 at 5:54 pm

              What truth? What taxes and costs are piling on?

              Fuel tax, which is a non progressive tax and adds to the cost of just about everything. Also added rental compliance costs are two that come to mind.

              Maybe the hardship grant applications are increasing because now there's a hope that they'll come through.

              The large queues for AAAP representation would suggest otherwise.

              They had a welfare group to identify the nature of the problems. And we all know what the main problem is, benefits aren't fit for purpose due to the fact they don't pay out enough from the onset.

              • Muttonbird …
                19 July 2019 at 5:56 pm

                But you just spend your benefit on cigarettes.

                • The Chairman …
                  19 July 2019 at 6:15 pm

                  Tobacco tax was another which widely impacted the poor. Thanks for reminding us.

                • Bazza64 …
                  19 July 2019 at 6:17 pm

                  The government gets back a huge portion of the $ that go on ciggies. From what I have heard smokers pay more than their fair share of tax with all that they pay + some smokers claim their shorter lives mean they get less of the pension than tofu eating bores who live to 102.

                  Time to light up ??

                  • Muttonbird …
                    19 July 2019 at 7:17 pm

                    Unrepentant smokers like The Chairman are implicit in continuing to advertise the filthy habit to our young people. They legitimise it.

                    Factor that in.

              • McFlock …
                19 July 2019 at 6:17 pm

                Rental compliance cost is a bullshit excuse – landlords already charge as much as possible. Fuel tax is one that might actually increase some downstream costs, but the queues existed before the tax came in (but after the change in government). So nah, not them.

                And it's all very well to say "they don't pay out enough". How much should they actually pay? What should be done to sort out that additional cost?

                You have previously written that the NZDF purchases should be delayed, but surely having the jet break down and delay the PM is not, as you might put it, "a good look". And that's the second time this year that it's happened. Aren't we lucky we don't need NZDF aircraft for things like earthquakes and cyclones…

                • The Chairman …
                  19 July 2019 at 11:49 pm

                  Rental compliance cost is a bullshit excuse – landlords already charge as much as possible.

                  No they don't. We've been through this before. Landlords will generally try to avoid increasing rents if possible if they have good reliable tenants they wish to keep. However, they can only hold back costs for so long and the current market (high demand low supply) gives landlords far more scope to increase rents and still maintain those good tenants. The cost of rental accommodation is on the up. The larger increases tend to happen when old tenants move on and new ones enter.

                  While the queues may have existed before the fuel tax came in (there is also the impact of tobacco tax to take into account) the increase in hardship grants indicates the queues have gotten bigger. Just as we are seeing with the massive increases at food banks.

                  How much should they actually pay?

                  I'd say double what they are paying now. The working group say 47% more and to be done urgently.

                  You have previously written that the NZDF purchases should be delayed

                  I said halved with the rest being deferred. And some of that half could go to fix those planes if it’s the best use of that funding.

                  • McFlock …
                    20 July 2019 at 2:08 am

                    Firstly landlords don't lower rents in my experience. They simply delay raising them. They are paying the tenants to stay, in effect. Only a moron would go "yay, now I have no tenants and insulation costs to recoup".

                    As for NZDF funding, they are fixing the planes. That's the trouble. They're old planes that require more maintenance, still break down more often, and are more expensive to keep in the air. That's why they need new ones,because now there's a good chance that when we really need them, they'll be stuck in the hanger. This was all explained in very small words when the purchase decision was announced.

              • Fireblade …
                19 July 2019 at 6:24 pm

                The cost of vegetables are 9% lower than at the same last year.

                The government and our PM can take credit for that (my spin).

          • Fireblade 14.1.1.1.2
            19 July 2019 at 5:57 pm

            The National Party and their seat warmer leader haven't earned the right to comment on MSD issues. Their history is one of uncaring and bitterness towards people who need help. Beneficiary bashing is the Nats favorite dog whistle.

            • The Chairman 14.1.1.1.2.1
              19 July 2019 at 6:16 pm

              Yes, indeed. But it's no excuse for the Greens being MIA on this.

                • McFlock …
                  19 July 2019 at 6:55 pm

                  They probably only "lifted their game" because of TC lol

                  • The Al1en …
                    19 July 2019 at 6:58 pm

                    You know it lol

                  • The Chairman …
                    19 July 2019 at 9:39 pm

                    They probably only "lifted their game" because of TC lol

                    Could well have been the case. The story was reported after I prodded them on here. Then again, it could have just be a coincidence.

                    Nevertheless, it's good to see them actually breaking their silence on this for a change. Let's hope it wasn't a one off. They need to keep the media momentum on this going.

                    • marty mars …
                      19 July 2019 at 10:02 pm

                      "Could well have been the case. The story was reported after I prodded them on here. Then again, it could have just be a coincidence."

                      maybe the first time or even the second but all the other ones after? You sell yourself short I reckon.

                    • McFlock …
                      19 July 2019 at 10:29 pm

                      bwahahahahahaha

                      I figure there's a 30% chance you actually think that might be the case.

                      They've probably actually been working on it for days if not weeks. Given the report uses data that was only released a couple of days ago (given by the creation date of the benefit snapshot pdf), I suspect they got all their ducks in a row and waited for the June results to come out.

      • Muttonbird 14.1.2
        19 July 2019 at 5:51 pm

        What taxes? There aren't any apart from the usual petrol tax increase. $5/week, tops.

        • The Chairman 14.1.2.1
          19 July 2019 at 6:11 pm

          Yes there was a fuel tax, as I stated above. And it's not only paid at the pump as it is generally passed on. So consumers cop it everywhere.

          • Sam 14.1.2.1.1
            19 July 2019 at 6:19 pm

            At $2 a litre at the pump your dealing with a highly politicised situation. We don't really have an interventionist Prime Minister that pressures oil retailers and producers to give us better petrol prices. I don't think you can get the Prime Minister into it with the oil lobby running interference. So with the elections next year it could be a different story. Of course you'd want to miss the first 20% of the story and wait for it to turn. Easing on the Consumer Index probably won't happen in the short but medium to long term Y'know you could do some work on it because it will be one to watch later on.

          • David Mac 14.1.2.1.2
            19 July 2019 at 7:03 pm

            Geez chairman, do you spend so long in here because the people you live with steer you in here because they pine for a secret illicit moment of joy?

            You claim to be of the left. Prove it, what are your 10 favourite things about the current government? Fess up or fuck off.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 14.1.2.1.2.1
              19 July 2019 at 8:02 pm

              "10 favourite things about the current government?"!!
              One certainly seems to be that ‘They never fail to disappoint!‘

              The Chairman would struggle to find one favourite thing that doesn't contradict their “relentlessly soggy commentary on the endless failings of Labour/Green MPs/policies. National MPs/policies, not so much.

              Funny that, particularly for a self-confessed “lefty” who is “more left than most” laugh

            • The Chairman 14.1.2.1.2.2
              19 July 2019 at 9:21 pm

              If you want further insight into my political position, check out this debate I had with Shadrach. It starts off from this comment at 4.3.3 in the linked thread

              https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09-07-2019/#comment-1636389

              Although it has fallen far short and could be better delivered, I like the notion of Kiwibuild.

              But in saying that, I also support the building of far more state homes.

              I like the regional investment fund, but again falls short and lacks robust oversight. The living wage should be a contractual condition in any new employment created via the funding.

              Reducing doctors fees. But again, the promise was $8 fees, however they only dropped them to $18.

              Addressing the flawed P tests was a good move.

              The new tourist entry tax/levy, that was a good achievement which also fell well short.

              Medicinal cannabis is another achievement but also another fall short.

              Wealth redistribution via a CGT, which they batted away under Jacinda watch.

              I support them investing in rail.

              Increasing the minimum wage, another however that falls short.

              The benefit changes announced, indexing etc.

              There is more, but I'm sure you will get the gist from the list provided.

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                19 July 2019 at 10:29 pm

                "Check out" the timely debate 'between' The Chairman and Shadrach. wink

                In another quirk of timing, The Chairman and Shadrach were 'both' very busy commenting here last Wednesday, until Shadrach's one-week ban took effect.

                Shadrach's last comment:

                Shadrach Comment:Make America white again
                Date published: 11:26 pm, July 17th, 2019

                And the Chairman's last comment:

                The Chairman @12.3.1
                17 July 2019 at 11:30 pm

                Not a peep out of The Chairman yesterday (Thursday 18 July), but a heavy presence here today on Open Mike, with 20 comments so far including their invitation @14.1.2.1.2.2 to "check out" 'their' beautifully choreographed 'debate'.

                “are you saying the Government hold this underlying sense, thus believe those born disabled are inferior, of no use or a burden?”

                “While that is proof of how little value the Government places on those not disabled through injury”

                “one wonders why they (the Government) haven’t increased core benefit rates

                “Does the Government like having massive weekly queues outside welfare offices being plastered all over the media? One would think not. So when are they going to do something about this growing problem?

                And by the way, where are the Greens on this issue? MIA.”

                “Seems (along with parliamentary questions) she [Marama Davidson] is leaving it to Simon Bridges to stand up for the poor?”

                “Whereas, the Greens are meant to be fighting this fight, yet we hear little or nothing from them on it.

                Last time I saw Marama she said she was working hard to get more recommendations (from the welfare working group) through. And we haven’t heard anything more from her about it since. Bit like when she said she was going to sort out the solar power issue for state home tenants. Once again, nada.“

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                19 July 2019 at 10:49 pm

                So "relentlessly soggy" today; anyone know the forecast for tomorrow?

                "Yes, indeed. But it's no excuse for the Greens being MIA on this."

                "Yes there was a fuel tax, as I stated above. And it's not only paid at the pump as it is generally passed on. So consumers cop it everywhere."

                "Nevertheless, it's good to see them [The Green party] actually breaking their silence on this for a change. Let's hope it wasn't a one off."

                Oh please, PLEASE let it be a one off!

  15. Andre 15
    19 July 2019 at 12:50 pm

    The lineup for the next Dem debates :

    July 30

    • Marianne Williamson
    • John Delaney
    • John Hickenlooper
    • Tim Ryan
    • Steve Bullock
    • Amy Klobuchar
    • Beto O'Rourke
    • Pete Buttigieg
    • Elizabeth Warren
    • Bernie Sanders

    July 31

    • Jay Inslee
    • Kirsten Gillibrand
    • Tulsi Gabbard
    • Michael Bennet
    • Bill de Blasio
    • Cory Booker
    • Andrew Yang
    • Julián Castro
    • Kamala Harris
    • Joe Biden

    So Harris and Biden get another crack at each other. Sanders and Warren get to go head to head.

    • Morrissey 15.1
      19 July 2019 at 2:35 pm

      Trump in 2020, with an increased majority. Get your deranged reaction ready now.

  16. McFlock 16
    19 July 2019 at 2:38 pm

    All those billionaires who promised to help rebuild Notre Dame? The money is almost nonexistent.

    My favourite bit:

    For the super-rich, giving is really taking. Taking power, that is, from the rest of society. The billionaires will get exclusive access to the “vision” for the reconstruction of a national landmark and they can veto those plans, because if they don’t like them they can withhold their cash. Money is always the most powerful casting vote, and they have it.

  17. Morrissey 17
    19 July 2019 at 2:56 pm

    Gallup Poll: Less than one per cent of Americans believe Russia is a top problem

    That choice nugget of information comes at the 8:23 mark in this clip….

    In spite of this barrage of propaganda by the DNC and its media megaphones, hardly a soul believes a word of it. The American people are not stupid, just like the British people who, polls show, almost entirely reject the ludicrous character assassination campaign by old Yenta Hodge and Tom Watson against Jeremy Corbyn, are not stupid.

    Will this stop politicians and their media megaphones (CNN, the NY Times, leading intellectuals like Stephen Colbert and Keith Olbermann, the Grauniad (groan), the ABC, RNZ, and the rest of them) continuing to repeat the lies?

    Don't count on it.

  18. David Mac 18
    19 July 2019 at 6:25 pm

    My imagination runs away on me sometimes…most of the time, I love life.

    I was thinking today about how when we learn a language it sticks with us. After a long hiatus, a week of immersion and it's like we never left.

    I wonder if there is an army of 60+ women that made 100's of buffoons' lives unfold favourably that if given an auxiliary text scratch pad could chat in the secret code of Pitman's Shorthand.

    • David Mac 18.1
      19 July 2019 at 6:34 pm

      I think participation of this variety is currently the best medicine we have for dementia etc. Use it or lose it. Flexing our minds is more important than our arms. Who wants to be a ripped nut-job? Give me flabby arms everytime.

  19. CHCoff 19
    19 July 2019 at 7:19 pm

    Seems to me, that for Brexit to be momentous, the cabinet is sacked, trade deal with President Trump, prorogation of parliament to push through the people's vote in the moribund political system.

    All three coming together with great Gusto, a no bull people's British bulldog through thick and thin.

    https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/westminster/1799494/mps-back-move-to-stop-parliament-being-suspended-and-prevent-no-deal-brexit/

  20. Eco maori 20
    20 July 2019 at 10:16 am

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute.

    https://youtu.be/hlfQVvsNLFk

    These sandflys in Hawksbay are cheeky BARSTARDS They will be sorry

  21. Eco maori 21
    20 July 2019 at 1:24 pm

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute.

    https://youtu.be/wE4TpnYIsW4

    Sending in Another actor I know who you're actor's are one get a job in a professional environment with no qualifications how they are actors for the sandflys the sandflys bribe them with good jobs I had to deal with fatty and dopey yesterday muppets

  22. Eco maori 22
    20 July 2019 at 6:32 pm

    Kia ora Newshub.

    Happy birthday to Barby for her 100 year ka pai you have a big whanau/family

    trump thats human caused climate change the heatwave over half of America at the MINUTE.

    Milisa Eco Maori has heard that tape worms cures other things to .

    Farmers don't have to worry about being put in a position of losses because of our government climate change policies but they have to reduce their carbon footprint. I say James Shaw will redward the farmer's who have Already reduced their carbon footprint.

    Ka kite ano.

  23. Eco maori 23
    20 July 2019 at 6:49 pm

    Kia ora Te Ao Maori News.

    I , ,, Te Waiapu AWA is a taonga to Eco Maori I have swam in it since I was a boy Thanks to the 1 billion tree fund for the 5 million being invested in fixing the Awa but they have to start at the head the start of the Awa and plant trees from their first than continue down the Waiapu planting trees right up to the mouth the Waiapu has eroded a lot of my Wahnaus whenua from flooding caused by all the natives trees being cut down in the region.

    James it a pity im in Hawksbay instead of Rotorua I would have gone and Watched the Maori Allblacks play in Rotorua.

    Ka kite ano

  24. Eco maori 24
    20 July 2019 at 7:05 pm

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute.

    https://youtu.be/q-wBWZm3quQ

    The sandflys think Eco Maori can't see right through there actor's they always given them selves up quite easily.

  26. Eco maori 26
    21 July 2019 at 1:16 pm

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute.

    https://youtu.be/mOFvJVroAJE

    Thanks for the VIP escorts

  27. Eco maori 27
    21 July 2019 at 2:41 pm

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute

    https://youtu.be/ktvTqknDobU

  28. Eco maori 28
    21 July 2019 at 3:20 pm

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute.

    https://youtu.be/tgIqecROs5M

  29. Eco maori 29
    22 July 2019 at 1:59 pm

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute

    https://youtu.be/Xo7WjnC8ekQ

    Mana Wahine good win congratulations Silver ferns Eco Maori new with Top coaches that you would get better.

  30. Eco maori 30
    22 July 2019 at 6:29 pm

    Kia ora Newshub.

    The gun buy back skeem is going great

    Tova there you go national ran our Airforce into the ground that is the reason the planes are breaking down.

    Its cool that the Airforce is cleaning up that dump by a awa in foxglacia region it would be nice to see the arned forces doing so community mahi in te taiwhiti.

    simon if national ran the country correctly we would no have a big mess in transportation and roads the trucking and Roadwork companies had national in there hip pockets

    We will see how Japan copes with the Rugby World Cup I did a post about slowing down the traffic and keeping cars close to reducing or stop traffic Jams in Auckland.

    Ka kite ano

  31. Eco maori 31
    22 July 2019 at 6:48 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Its cool to see Ngati Te Rangiti and tand other Iwi working to gather in their treaty negotiations with the crown That is one of Eco Maori wishes to see Tangata Whenua working together like the old days ka pai many hands make light Mahi.

    Eco Maori tau toko the tangata whenua O Hawaiians for protesting that huge telescope being forced on their sacred Moanga Mauna kia its cool that Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa is tau toko there cause awesome.

    Warmer Kiwi homes insulating heaps of homes in Porirua a insulated whare ia a must for happy healthy Mokopuna.

    Were Eco Maori is at the minute we have to light the fire to cook and eat Eco Maori aroha it Ka kite ano

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