Open mike 21/06/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 21st, 2013 - 135 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

135 comments on “Open mike 21/06/2013 ”

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  1. Jenny 1
    21 June 2013 at 6:24 am

    Are you sick and tired of hearing from blood thirsty arm chair generals and racist Isalamaphobes expound their views on the Middle East safe in the comfort of their New Zealand living rooms?

    An Invitation to a Conference on Palestine

    Auckland Town Hall with renowned Israeli author MIKO PELED.

    From 6.30pm, This Sunday 23 June.
    FREE ADMISSION – all sessions open to the public – koha welcome.

    ALSO:

    A special screening of Oscar-nominated documentary ‘5 Broken Cameras’ at 4pm (same venue), and Palestinian speaker Yousef Aljamal – direct from Gaza.

    Check out our website http://www.conferenceonpalestine.co.nz for more details.
    Bring your friends & family. “Palestine is still the issue.”

    – Roger Fowler, chair of Kia Ora Gaza

    • richard 1.1
      21 June 2013 at 7:32 am

      Recommend hearing what Miko Peled has to say. He is a very good speaker.

      For those who can’t make it to Auckland there are some very good videos of his talks on YouTube.
      e.g.
      Miko Peled Part 1

    • Colonial Viper 1.2
      21 June 2013 at 10:14 am

      Jenny since you support foreign islamic soldiers in Syria fighting against the locals, you are clearly one of these “blood thirsty arm chair generals”.

  2. Jenny 2
    21 June 2013 at 6:35 am

    The Assad dictatorship as the Saddam Hussein dictatorship before them did, has garnered a lot of political capital by giving support to the Palestinian’s cause.

    However recently despite their terrible need, the Palestinians refugees have been spontaneously rejecting or destroying aid shipments that have come from the Basha Assad allied Hisbollah, (Party of God) saying that they would rather starve than take charity from a butcher of the Arab people.

    • Colonial Viper 2.1
      21 June 2013 at 10:15 am

      Your support of the Syrian proxy war is destabilising the entire region, and yes the Palestinans are now also in the firing line.

      saying that they would rather starve than take charity from a butcher of the Arab people.

      Yes that sounds genuine to me.

  4. logie97 4
    21 June 2013 at 7:40 am

    Land for development.

    Apparently there is large part of an electorate in Auckland where the housing minister is going to be fast tracking rezoning and planning.

    It starts around Massey and extends to Waimauku/Muriwai. That’s part of the MP for Helensville’s patch. Like Kim Dotcom, I’ll bet he hasn’t been briefed. Yeah right. Mums and Dads should try to get some shares in the development companies.

    • Antonina 4.1
      21 June 2013 at 8:55 am

      Land bankers have been awaiting this for some years.
      No thoughts of public transport and other important infrastructure.

      • Jilly Bee 4.1.1
        21 June 2013 at 10:51 pm

        And the electrication of the Western line finishes at Swanson! Typical planning for public transport for an expanding area of Auckland, which has already started. When I first shifted to Swanson our home was right on the edge of the rural/urban divide, but a new housing division was soon commenced in the Crows Road area and is now in full swing.

    • tc 4.2
      21 June 2013 at 9:00 am

      LOL like these companies are open to public scrutiny let alone listed aside from the fletchers and big civil crowds who will do the initial work in one of those ‘national interest’ scenarios.

      Alot of that around SH1’s road to JK’s beachhouse with backers and mates looking to do very nicely of now accessible ‘suburbia’ via a zoning tweak and a shiny new Holiday highway going through.

      Some folk have been waiting years as the actual gov’t bodies who buy the land up weren’t given the funds, ah but that’s just annoying detail in the blighted future that those annoying public servants can tidy up….what’s left of them and whatever superdupster ministry they now belong to.

  5. Perplexed 5
    21 June 2013 at 7:54 am

    National ’08 45%, ’11 47.5% now 44%.
    Labour/ Green ’08 41%, ’11 38.5% now 44.5%
    NZ1 ’08 4%, ’11 6.5% now 6%

    National has not been impacted by their own foul ups or by the efforts of the opposition.

    Labour Greens have closed the gap with the Nats by 4 pc points. However Winston and his 6% will go Nat rather than share power with the Greens.

    This is not a success for Labour given all that has gone on since ’08.

    This is a failure given that an election could be called anytime ( due to self inflicted wounds by Natz&co) and that a full term election is a little over 12 months away.

    Nothing in the Roy Morgan Poll to feel good about. . It is very chilling. All Labour people should be very very concerned.

    • Paul 5.1
      21 June 2013 at 7:59 am

      Simple Labour …….get rid of Shearer and support Cunliffe.
      Or switch your vote to Mana or Green.

      • logie97 5.1.1
        21 June 2013 at 8:05 am

        …how is shifting support to the Greens going to increase the left’s share of the vote?
        The left has to show alternative appeal to Key (and show it fast). New leadership is obviously a start.

        • weka 5.1.1.1
          21 June 2013 at 12:05 pm

          It’s not just a new leader Labour needs, it needs a change in its internal parliamentary culture, and probably the wider party.

          In the meantime, more votes for GP or Mana theoretically could increase the left vote by engaging current non-voters. There is also some evidence that some voters the right are shifting to voting GP, so the bigger the profile they have the better. The bigger the GP gets, the more credibility it gets and the more it has the power to shift the centre back towards the left again. I would be happy if Labour were doing this but they’re not, so fuck ’em. The more Labour voters that vote Green the better.

      • Hami Shearlie 5.1.2
        21 June 2013 at 2:22 pm

        Cunliffe would have my vote in a heartbeat. Shearer , I doubt it!! The ABC gang’s being caught out, sitting in a corporate box courtesy of Sky City, shows their judgement is sadly lacking – they hate Cunliffe more than they hate being in opposition. What kind of weirdos are they?? At the trough for far too long, only concerned with stashing away truckloads of taxpayer money paid to them over many decades!! The membership of the Party’s wishes regarding the Leadership are not being considered in any way.

      • Jilly Bee 5.1.3
        21 June 2013 at 10:57 pm

        Absolutely right Paul – how long will it take for Labour to see the light. I have already stated that I will either become a non-voter next election or vote Green or even Mana (it takes a long time Labour voter like me to change stripes, but I’m being forced into it unless there is a change of leader sooner rather than later.

        • Jenny 5.1.3.1
          22 June 2013 at 9:51 am

          Indeed Hamie. If Cunliffe was head of the Labour Party. It would represent a sea change. Instead of telling the Greens how it is gonna be in coalition, as Shearer does. Cunliffe might actually start listening to them. This might encourage the Greens to stick with their principles. And see the Greens arguing for far more concessions over environmental issues particularly Deep Sea Oil drilling, which if achieved would avoid the inevitable clash with their members and supporters. Making the coalition much more stable.

          Your statement that the Labour Party hate Cunliffe more than they hate being in opposition reminds me of Chris Trotter’s observation of the Labour Party, that they would, “Rather have control of the losing side, than lose control of the winning side.

    • Te Reo Putake 5.2
      21 June 2013 at 8:05 am

      I blame the Greens. Why aren’t they doing better? Time to get rid of the deadwood in their leadership.

      • Saarbo 5.2.1
        21 June 2013 at 9:00 am

        Yes, The Greens good performance hasn’t converted to a rise in the polls and Labours atrocious performance hasn’t converted to a drop in the Polls…..yet. But when most people start focusing on the Election next year, and people start actively listening to Shearer versus Norman/Turei, Key versus Turei/Norman, I reckon we will see the Polls reacting.

        I’m really keen to understand why you think Shearer is a good leader for Labour Te Reo?

        • Te Reo Putake 5.2.1.1
          21 June 2013 at 9:10 am

          I don’t! But he is good enough to scrape over the line. Frankly, I’d like to see Andrew Little lead the party. He’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but he can actually communicate with people, debate with opponents and lead a team. He’d be the difference between scraping home under Shearer and having a solid working majority.

          • weka 5.2.1.1.1
            21 June 2013 at 12:06 pm

            Scrap over the line, now that’s a fine goal to aspire to.

            • Te Reo Putake 5.2.1.1.1.1
              21 June 2013 at 12:55 pm

              True, but if it works for the AB’s in cup finals, it should work for Labour. I’m guessing studying rugby strategy was the real reason for the MP’s and Shearer being in the Sky Casino box and when Shearer wins by a single seat, we’ll be hailing him as a tactical genius. Or summat.

              • weka …
                21 June 2013 at 1:00 pm

                Lol. I still reckon you lot should defect to the GP or Mana 🙂

              • Olwyn …
                21 June 2013 at 1:40 pm

                After a cup final, the AB’s have done their job. After an election the winner is just beginning theirs. In the first case, the one point win is enough, in the second, with the real job ahead, it does not bode so well for stability.

              • Colonial Viper …
                21 June 2013 at 2:14 pm

                TRP a scrape over the line leaves an incoming government with precious little political capital and legitimacy to start with. For a Labour Govt that means 1 timid Labour term followed by 2 or 3 more Tory terms.

            • Jilly Bee 5.2.1.1.1.2
              21 June 2013 at 11:00 pm

              I don’t want to scrape over the line either and besides Andrew Little hasn’t done his apprenticeship as an MP, as David Shearer hasn’t either, whereas David Cunliffe is a seasoned MP.

              • Colonial Viper …
                21 June 2013 at 11:08 pm

                Seasoned MP and seasoned Minister. Oversaw the break up of Telecom in the face of major corporate and moneyed opposition.

                Never distributed mango skins to poor kids though, as far as I know.

          • Hami Shearlie 5.2.1.1.2
            21 June 2013 at 2:29 pm

            I think Labour needs someone who can do more than scrape over the line. Someone who looks good on TV, is very smart and able to communicate clearly and effectively is needed, in other words, David Cunliffe is the man!!! Unfortunately for Andrew Little, he has ZERO charisma, even though he may be very capable. And charisma, especially these days with elections mainly fought for and won on TV, is a MUST!! That would definitely rule out Grant Robertson too. No charisma, always slightly dishevelled, and not popular except on the beltway. Coming third in the party vote in his electorate should tell people something!!

          • Blue 5.2.1.1.3
            21 June 2013 at 8:44 pm

            You are seriously underestimating the NZ public if you think Shearer is good enough even to scrape.

          • Jenny 5.2.1.1.4
            22 June 2013 at 10:03 am

            Interestingly Andrew Little despite his Engineering Union background has shown himself open to discussing the reality of Climate Change, whereas Shearer won’t have a bar of it.

            I agree that Little does actually communicate with people, and debate with opponents and has shown he can lead a team. This would be completely different to the uncommunicative sulky autocratic type leadership displayed by Shearer. Personally I would prefer Cunliffe over Little as the Party leader. Which also is the Labour membership’s choice. But Little would be my second choice.

            • Rodel 5.2.1.1.4.1
              22 June 2013 at 8:57 pm

              Jenny-Much as I don’t want to harm Shearer & Labour my thoughts concur with yours.

            • Rhinocrates 5.2.1.1.4.2
              22 June 2013 at 9:06 pm

              uncommunicative sulky autocratic

              Indeed, though he’s fictional, Tywin Lannister speaks the truth:

              “A man who says ‘I am the King’ is no true king.”

              (And that’s what fiction does: it speaks the truth in the guise of lies)

              That’s true: Little second choice, Cunliffe first, Shearer never. OK, Little then.

              Shearer would have been a decent minister in Bill Rowling’s cabinet if he’d known his place. He wasn’t, he doesn’t and he’s not. That’s his tragedy and ours.

      • Colonial Viper 5.2.2
        21 June 2013 at 8:46 pm

        TRP said:

        I blame the Greens. Why aren’t they doing better? Time to get rid of the deadwood in their leadership.

        2005 General Election
        LAB 41.1%
        GR 5.3%

        2011 General Election
        LAB 27.5% (-33.1%)
        GR 11.1% (+109.4%)

        Labour gave up 1/3 of it’s party vote between 2005 and 2011. The Greens more than doubled their party vote (from a small base) over that same time.

        The performance of the Greens leadership looks fine to me mate.

        • Te Reo Putake 5.2.2.1
          22 June 2013 at 10:08 am

          Perhaps I should have put a smiley on my comment for the slower kids in class.

        • Jenny 5.2.2.2
          22 June 2013 at 10:20 am

          Funnily enough I agree with TRP. Why aren’t the Greens doing better?

          Personally I think that the Greens aren’t growing the left vote, instead they are cannibalising Labour’s. I think that the figures above show this.

          Instead of becoming more like Labour the Greens IMHO need to stay true to their environmental principles. When the crunch comes and the Greens find themselves in a Shearer led coalition government, determined to mine the Denniston Plateau and drill for Deep Sea Oil, and in direct opposition to most of their membership, and are destroyed in the resulting implosion, all that voter support taken from Labour will go flooding back. Resulting in a dramatically shrunken Green caucus returned in 2017. Maybe this is Shearer’s strategy, force the Greens into line to destroy them.

    • Anne 5.3
      21 June 2013 at 9:58 am

      The Herald’s Toby Manhire gives his opinion on what Labour should do:

      Labour checking all wrong boxes

      Frankly, after the idiocy of his three “top performers” you would think Shearer might start listening to the rest of us…

      • Veutoviper 5.3.1
        21 June 2013 at 10:54 am

        That is a pretty straight message from Manhire – but unfortunately I don’t think Shearer will listen to anyone other than those fellow caucus members* whispering in his ear, Anne.

        * Robertson, Mallard and co.

        Give him another six months… I don’t think so.

    • McFlock 5.4
      21 June 2013 at 1:07 pm

      Where’s ACT or United Future?

  6. marty mars 6
    21 June 2013 at 8:03 am

    John Hamilton from Arrowtown on the plan to put a tiny amount of affordable housing there

    “We don’t need white or black trash renting cheap houses in Arrowtown,” he said.

    “Arrowtown has a very low crime rate because poor people can’t afford to live here.”

    My view is simple, “People are trash in hamilton’s view but don’t worry he’s not racist because both ‘white’ and ‘black’ people are equally trash, rubbish, thrown away and discarded. What a sad, sick individual hamilton is to have a view of people like that. He is the type that would let poor people die in the street and then complain they are making the place untidy. Personally I’d be quite happy if the hamiltons of this world left this country and never came back.”

    Luckily some good people of Arrowtown have formed part of the 250 submissions on the plan and isn’t hamilton’s view a stark contrast to the recent Mana Housing policy where those in need are looked after.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8822832/Residents-vocal-in-opposition-to-housing-trash

    http://mars2earth.blogspot.co.nz/2013/06/white-and-black-trash.html

    http://mars2earth.blogspot.co.nz/2013/06/mana-in-house.html

    • vto 6.1
      21 June 2013 at 11:41 am

      God that is sick. John Hamilton is one sick and ugly puppy.

      This doesn’t surprise me though – recall Sam Neill a few years ago trying to do the same to stop people coming in with their average houses and “destroying” the rich peoples 10 acre blocks? Sam Neill was just as ugly with this approach.

      It also doesn’t suprise me in another sense. Having spent some time in and out of that area over the years – it has changed from a vibrant, broad, diverse community to one which is sanitised and fucking boring. It is just rich baby boomers driving around in the their range rovers doing the same shit and keeping their lawns like bowling greens. And grimacing whenever someone of average clothes and car goes by.

      These people put up these fences and gates around their homes and, without even realising it, around their minds. Boring boring boring. Oh, and wankers.

      (now, back to my self-imposed exile from you mm…)

      • Populuxe1 6.1.1
        21 June 2013 at 11:45 am

        I’m not sure what the point of the exercise would be anyway – there aren’t that many jobs in Arrowtown and everything costs a fortune.

        • vto 6.1.1.1
          21 June 2013 at 11:52 am

          From what I know there are in fact loads of jobs in the wakatipu basin. All the cleaners and hospo and touro workers and drivers and, well, basically all the work that needs doing in the place, are done by low paid workers and for them finding an affordable house in that location is just impossible (because the wanker Sam Neill and his ilk are hell bent on keeping property values sky high).

          Affordable housing would be jumped on quick smart.

          Have thought for a long time that the entire basin will eventually end up being populated all to hell and the area littered with more and more housing, a bit like those Euro mountain resort valleys. But you know, people like John Hamilton and Sam Neill love that shit in Euroland and even go to the extreme lengths of flying halfway aroud the world to take their holidays in exactly that environment (and note those euro valleys have cheap housing areas for workers too). Then they come back here and say they don’t like it!

          This attitude expressed here by Hamilton and Neill is ugly and unwelcome. It is also shallow and lacks basic human decency. These people should be shunned, not the workers.

          • weka 6.1.1.1.1
            21 June 2013 at 12:09 pm

            Hamilton and Neil weren’t expressing the same sentiment at all. Neil was trying to stop the infil of rural areas, which is to be applauded. If anything he’s been proven right by your statement that the area is now dull and boring.

            • vto 6.1.1.1.1.1
              21 June 2013 at 12:27 pm

              No no no no I disagree. That may have been Neil’s words but it was absolutely not the sentiment. This approach is seen all the time – people say “wah wah wah, these newcomers will destory the environment” while at exactly the same time having destroyed the environment to get their own piece of infill (recall the basin used to be large scale farms which have been infilled by 10 acre blocks. Same thing, just differnt scale). It is a pull up the drawbridge approach.

              And it aint the “infill” that makes the place boring, it is the blandness of the range rover-driving, schist-clad mcmansion-owning baby boomer set. imhumbleo.

              And John Hamilton has just brought it all to the fore again.

              • weka …
                21 June 2013 at 12:57 pm

                For me it’s the blandness of the recentish suburbs where all the houses are made out of ticky tacky. Queenstown has always had a high proportion of rich people with flash cars, *shrug*. IMO it’s been a long time since it’s been a culturally attractive place, but obviously lots of people still like living there.

                I agree there are issues with what Neil and ilk do in terms of wealth and land prices, but he’s not in the same category as Hamilton and the other Arrowtown people who think that low income = wrong or criminal. I’d like to see you come up with something from Neil that shows he obviously doesn’t understand that the people who clean Queenstown’s toilets aren’t earning high wages, which is what Hamilton seems to have missed. Maybe on Planet Hamilton there are no toilets 😉

                (recall the basin used to be large scale farms which have been infilled by 10 acre blocks. Same thing, just differnt scale). It is a pull up the drawbridge approach.

                I guess it depends on where you think the limit should be. Or if there should be a limit at all. Queenstown is a very interesting example because it is demonstrates that we live on a finite planet better than most other places. Once they’ve filled in all the land between the Crown Range, the Kawarau Gorge, the Devil’s Staircase and Mt Aspiring Natinal Park, where do you propose the latest incomers should live?

                And going into PO/CC/GFC, where do you think all those people are going to get their food from? You can actually grow food for the local population more easily and successfully on 10 acres blocks than you can on large sheep farms. It’s also possible to argue that lifestyle blocks are better for the environment because more trees get planted and there is more biodiversity than on larger farms.

                • vto …
                  21 June 2013 at 1:41 pm

                  You make fair points there weka. I have to fly out the door but in a quick nutshell, the nimby syndrome is something I have absolutely no time for.

                  “I guess it depends on where you think the limit should be.” — Yes. But when someone comes along and subdivides a property so they can have a home for themselves, and then objects to the next person coming along and subdividing the previous subdivision so they too can have a home I just see hypocrisy all over the whole place and a complete lack of credibility.

                  If people like Neil want a rural paradise then how about a covenant on their titles such that when they sell they can only sell to a neighbour who then has to amalgamate to reduce the population and restore true ruralness…..

                  I agree about your point with smaller farms being “more productive” – witness highly populated parts of the world.

                  Imo the wakatipu basin should give up on trying to remain like some sort of 1970’s golden poplar-treed sheep-clad paradise and embrace that euro mountain valley higher populated type enclave that works so well over there. There is enough land to house a massive population. I mean, that is the way it is heading. People would love it (except the elite 10 acre block owners and there are f-all of them, and they are just being selfish). People would embrace it. It would become more diverse, more vibrant, more cosmopolitan, more touristy. Imagine it. There are plenty of other rural paradises all around NZ if thats what people want.

                  If wakatipu people want empty rural then they should go live south of Kinsgton. Go on sam neill, go live south of Kingston if that’s what you want. What do you think weka – would the likes of Neill and Hamilton live there? Still plenty big mountains and scenes, maybe just no “mountain scene”, which seems to be their scene ….. hence cosmpolitanise it all even more ….

                  (now I’m running late)

                  • weka …
                    21 June 2013 at 4:43 pm

                    for later vto 🙂

                    “But when someone comes along and subdivides a property so they can have a home for themselves, and then objects to the next person coming along and subdividing the previous subdivision so they too can have a home I just see hypocrisy all over the whole place and a complete lack of credibility.”

                    By that argument we should build as many houses as we want wherever we want and as high and dense as we want. Not only do most people not agree with that, but we have specific laws in place to prevent that happening.

                    “If people like Neil want a rural paradise then how about a covenant on their titles such that when they sell they can only sell to a neighbour who then has to amalgamate to reduce the population and restore true ruralness…..”

                    I’m not sure what the solution is, but I suspect in a sane world it would be a combination of nationally set guidelines and then local communities working democratically to decide how best land should be managed.

                    “Imo the wakatipu basin should give up on trying to remain like some sort of 1970′s golden poplar-treed sheep-clad paradise and embrace that euro mountain valley higher populated type enclave that works so well over there.”

                    Except it’s a fragile landscape. A big earthquake will be catastrophic for Queenstown. It’s not a good place for high density population.

                    “(except the elite 10 acre block owners and there are f-all of them, and they are just being selfish).”

                    Sorry, but you sound very bitter there, not to mention prejudiced. It’s true that lifestyle blocks have changed many places, for good and bad. But I don’t see the owners as being any more selfish than any other land owner generally.

                    “There are plenty of other rural paradises all around NZ if thats what people want.”

                    Not for very much longer, and not if your arguments were followed.

                    “If wakatipu people want empty rural then they should go live south of Kinsgton. Go on sam neill, go live south of Kingston if that’s what you want.”

                    I don’t imagine Neil would have a problem living there if he had to. It’s a beautiful landscape for sure. But I suspect that not all Kingston and surrounding people would be that happy with the descending hoards. Not sure if you are aware, but Queenstown workers already live in Kingston and commute because there is not enough accommodation in Queenstown (affordable accommodation I mean, there are obviously enough houses there). By your argument we should just fill the whole country with suburbs. What happens when Kingston is full? I guess we could just keep build suburbs all the way to Bluff. See where I am going with this?

                    Besides how are people going to afford the commute when petrol is $5/L?

                    There are only so many people that any given landbase can support. While I agree people like Neil have something to answer for in terms of wealth and land values, I think he did NZ a service. Basically he spoke of the value of open, natural, under-developped places. We need those. I like being able to go to a river or beach and find no-one else there at times. That’s not selfishness, it’s gratitude towards nature.

                    • vto …
                      21 June 2013 at 5:21 pm

                      Hi weka, I appreciate all the points you have made there. Sure, controls are necessary for those reasons you mention and I agree with them to maintain certain intrinsic values around certain environments and stop them being overrun by masses of people and our wrecking ball ways.

                      The argument around never-ending subdivision is not something I follow and the argument was only made to highlight the hypocrisy of others in wanting to pull the drawbridge up to stop others doing what those who are already there have done themselves. This occurs in spades in this locality.

                      As for what “spoils” the environment more – lifestyle blocks or subdivisions….. the wakatipu basin (not the mountains which are not lived on anyway) is already completely modified from its natural state. All natural vegetation has been stripped in the areas where housing and lifestyle blocks are. So to put in a pink house and a golf course, or a vineyard and a schist house, to house one family is no better (and in fact worse given the low benefit for similar cost) than putting in 50 houses to house 50 families. Strip all natural features on, say, 20 hectares and house either 1 family or 50 families… see the cost-benefit ratio?

                      As for whether the basin is a fragile environment, I’m not sure in what sense you mean. It is no more fragile ecologically than pretty much the rest of the South Island mountain locales. And if it is considered that it is ecologically fragile then it must be seen in the context of this being the only such fragile locale in NZ to be used in this way. Then consider, re earthquakes, Wellington, Taupo area, Auckland (Rangitoto went up just a couple hundred years ago remember). I don’t know if your point here holds.

                      As for me sounding bitter – sorry, sometimes it seems my manner of expression comes out more harshly than intended. But, when it comes to the demands of 10 acre block holders in Wakatipu, yes, there is some displeasure at their manner, demands, and attempts to push away the “trash”, as John Hamilton has so eloquently puts it.

                      And when you say this re Sam Neill … “Basically he spoke of the value of open, natural, under-developped places” you kind of nail the sticking point. He didn’t do that. All he did was do that in relation to his own pulled-up-drawbridge part of NZ. And further, that pulled-up-drawbridge part of NZ (the wakatipu basin living areas low down) is far from a natural, undeveloped place. It is completely and utterly modified. He spoke in those terms but he was not correct and it was all on the basis of self-interest imo.

                      You see these types of nimbys all over NZ – they get their piece of paradise and modify the environment all to hell, then pull out these arguments (which are falsely based) to preserve their piece just for themselves and in order to keep out the trash. This is exactly what the turd Hamilton is stating, just in more stark terms than Neill.

                      I must reiterate my personal view above re the best thing for Wakatipu into the future – that of a densely populated mountain community (there is no other in NZ) that throbs and pulses with a cosmopolitality that is not even matched by NZ’s big cities. It would be spectacular – picture it – snow-clad mountains lit up by moonlight and the sparkling lights of people-bustle in the low areas. It would go crazy. And the effect on the environment would be nil because the envornment has already been dealt a death blow by its development to date.

                      Oh, and go Kingston!

                    • vto …
                      21 June 2013 at 5:28 pm

                      one more bit … “value of open, natural, under-developped places. We need those. I like being able to go to a river or beach and find no-one else there at times. That’s not selfishness, it’s gratitude towards nature.”

                      I agree 1000%. Best jam us humans up closer and leave more of those open spaces. Wakatipu is the mountain location for just that in NZ. Jam everyone in there (which is where they want to be too) and leave all other mountain locations empty and natural.

        • McFlock 6.1.1.2
          21 June 2013 at 1:19 pm

          servants’ quarters

    • felix 6.2
      21 June 2013 at 3:17 pm

      Why isn’t the local MP, National’s Dennis Plant, speaking out about this?

  7. halfcrown 7
    21 June 2013 at 8:40 am

    “Arrowtown has a very low crime rate because poor people can’t afford to live here.”

    We have returned to the day’s of Dickens, when in Britain there was only two classes in society. The upper class and the criminal class

    • Colonial Viper 7.1
      21 June 2013 at 8:45 am

      Uhhhh…no you got it the other way around. The basis of the upper class is the kleptocratic class.

    • aj 7.2
      21 June 2013 at 10:40 am

      “Eva Baloga said: “There are plenty of affordable homes in Timaru. No need to live in Arrowtown.”

      There is a poll here where only about 28% of respondents agree with their point of view.

  8. David H 8
    21 June 2013 at 8:43 am

    Now here’s a classic case of ‘foriegn ownership of a power company. In debt up to it’s eyeballs, all profits going to service debt to foreign bankers and hedge funds.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/8822635/30m-loss-as-Powerco-hit-by-debts

    So is this what will happen to all of our power companies when they have been stolen and sold off

    • joe90 8.1
      21 June 2013 at 11:02 am

      So is this what will happen to all of our power companies when they have been stolen and sold off

      All’s going to plan.

      April 1993: New Plymouth Energy (the electricity division of the New Plymouth District Council) merges with Taranaki Electricity (former Taranaki Electric Power Board) to become Taranaki Energy Limited

      November 2004: It is now moving to compulsorily acquire the remaining shares and remove Powerco from the New Zealand stock exchange.

  9. Winston Smith 9
    21 June 2013 at 8:49 am

    I think something that would boost labours chances of winning would be to appropriate Manas policy on no deposit, low interest rate home loans for Maori, its a vote winner 🙂

  10. James 10
    21 June 2013 at 9:32 am

    OK – I am curious – I have strong views about this (very much against), but genuinly am interested in what “lefties” think of the race based housing policy from Mana.

    “Maori first-home buyers would be able to buy homes with no deposit, at the same interest rates that Government pays and with negotiable mortgage terms.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10891862

    Follow up question – do you think Labour should support this?

    • marty mars 10.1
      21 June 2013 at 9:51 am

      James in the same speech this was the last couple of sentences

      We know that housing is not just an issue that affects Maori; it affects every family on a low income. That’s why John Minto, will be announcing MANA’s wider housing policy on 23 July as a part of our MINTO FOR MAYOR Campaign.

      http://mana.net.nz/2013/06/mana-housing-policy-announcement-for-maori-te-hamua-nikora-ikaroa-rawhiti-mana-candidate/

      Only 45% of Māori own their own homes compared to 70% for pākehā and that inequity must be addressed imo.

      • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 10.1.1
        21 June 2013 at 10:50 am

        Can they not afford homes because they are maori, or because they are poor?

      • Populuxe1 10.1.2
        21 June 2013 at 11:38 am

        It is, however, absurd to put into law that the houses can only be on-sold to other Maori. And I am flabbergasted why race is being prioritised over need. That’s not redress, that’s blatant divisiveness. And why can’t the iwi take the initiative? Kai Tahu are already doing that with their own money.

        • weka 10.1.2.1
          21 June 2013 at 12:15 pm

          So you would be supportive of govt funding direct to iwi. Sounds a good plan to me.

          • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 10.1.2.1.1
            21 June 2013 at 2:18 pm

            And who would fund the government, so it could fund the iwi?

          • Populuxe1 10.1.2.1.2
            21 June 2013 at 10:14 pm

            The Government has already funded it – the treaty settlements. I have no problem with Maori only development provided iwi use their own money – perhaps with a Government top up

            • weka 10.1.2.1.2.1
              21 June 2013 at 11:26 pm

              Treaty Settlements were reparation for past theft and injustices, not to make up for failings in current social policy. Did you see marty’s quote about the different rates of home ownership between Maori and non-Maori? Why do you think that is?

              “And I am flabbergasted why race is being prioritised over need”

              That’s probably because you don’t understand the need and are confusing it with race. If Maori are disadvantaged in home buying compared to the rest of the population, then why not assist them?

              You also don’t seem to understand ethnicity. If you target services at Maori and do this in a Maori way, it’s more successful ie it’s a better use of the money. That’s why ‘race’ based funding is important. It’s not because Maori are more special than everyone else.

              (and you can argue it the other way – that services delivered the Pakeha way are race based ones that serve Pakeha, but not non-Pakeha).

            • weka 10.1.2.1.2.2
              21 June 2013 at 11:30 pm

              “I have no problem with Maori only development provided iwi use their own money – perhaps with a Government top up”

              Had Iwi been given fair settlements I might agree. But have you looked at the rather small amounts that many settlements entailed compared to the value of the lost assets and resources from since the Treaty was signed? One of the core points about the Treaty and everything that surrounds that is that Maori were severely undermined in the 1800s, in myriad ways, and until they are able to recover from that we cannot consider this a level playing field.

    • Winston Smith 10.2
      21 June 2013 at 9:56 am

      Labour should not only support it they should make it one of their election pledges 🙂

  11. Winston Smith 11
    21 June 2013 at 9:59 am

    The dompost is getting better at being balanced lately, its normally quite left-leaning but now its starting to report fairly and without bias…bad news for the left though

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/editorials/8821564/Editorial-No-return-to-fortress-NZ

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/editorials/8816279/Editorial-Teachers-in-way-of-standards

    • framu 11.1
      21 June 2013 at 12:38 pm

      thats a good one WS – one of your better jokes

      seriously though – i dont think you would know “reporting fairly and without bias” if it came up, kicked you in the nuts and left a business card with a hand written note for a follow up meeting

      the media arent really left or right leaning – they are lazy oppourtunists chasing sensationalism

      editorials are of course different to news stories and regularly come out with a much more rightwards view (in terms of what could normally be considered a left or right viewpoint – not how you or i call it)

      your really just showing up the shallowness of both your knowledge and opinion, of how the MSM operates in our contemporary, media saturated world

    • Draco T Bastard 11.2
      21 June 2013 at 6:25 pm

      None of that is even close to balanced – it’s pure National Party propaganda.

      As for National Standards?
      Research debunks internal assesment criticism
      If you want to destroy education (and thus the children) in NZ then keep them. Otherwise, get a clue and start listening to the teachers.

  12. Colonial Viper 12
    21 June 2013 at 10:31 am

    Boadicea’s analysis of McFlock

    I found this exchange last night fascinating.

    Tides = ‘election cycles’ , the “in phrase” for Robertson’s strategists.
    Thanks McFlock. It’s nice to see your Party Central credentials confirmed.

    CV, McFlock is not an Alliance bod.

    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-20062013/#comment-651607

    • McFlock 12.1
      21 June 2013 at 1:28 pm

      Based entirely on the fact that when someone said the polls were making them seasick, I referred to gentle swells and suggested they watch the tides (i.e. trends rather than bi-weekly angst/elation sessions).

      whatever. I know who I work for and who I am, so if you want to start seeing Robertson’s strategists in every shadow, feel free. It is unlikely to change my opinion of your grip on reality.

      • mac1 12.1.1
        21 June 2013 at 2:54 pm

        Gentle swells are Ok, McFlock- if you’re into fashion, and well-mannered foppery. It’s us northerly Gaels you have to watch out for- we can kick up a storm- though it can be a trifle breezy around the southern parts. Macs Go Bragh!

  13. Veutoviper 13
    21 June 2013 at 11:49 am

    OOOh! I thought I would check how MRP shares were doing.

    They started the day at $2.26 and are now down at $2.22.

    Volume of trades have also dropped off noticeably over the last week or so.

    • Colonial Viper 13.1
      21 June 2013 at 12:18 pm

      Great chance for the big hedge funds to acquire a few more parcels of shares on the quiet.

    • mickysavage 13.2
      21 June 2013 at 12:23 pm

      I just saw this Vv. I wonder how the newbie shareholders are feeling about things now?

      • Veutoviper 13.2.1
        21 June 2013 at 2:44 pm

        I watched MRP shares avidly for the first few weeks – not because I have any as I would not have bought on principle. Wish now that I had documented their “progress”, but in the first few weeks, there was massive trading with MRP shares the biggest trades on some days in terms of volume and, on one or two occasions, value. The average of those trades (Volume of shares divided by number of trades) was very, very high – ie, many thousands. . MRP directors were also able to buy up until 31 May, and they did – disclosure notices are on the NZX site.

        By contrast, recently numbers of trades, volumes and averages have dropped back markedly.

        For example, today so far (as of a few minutes ago), trades have only totalled 124 covering a volume of 421,863 shares, giving an average of 3402 shares per trade (price now $2.23).

        I am no expert in the share market, but possibly this indicates that current buyers/sellers are smaller/newbie traders and the biggies are sitting it out at present. Happy to admit my assumptions are wrong if more experienced people can provide a more expert explanation.

        • Colonial Viper 13.2.1.1
          21 June 2013 at 4:42 pm

          Great looking chart here for you VV

          http://nz.finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=MRP.NZ&t=3m&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=

          • Veutoviper 13.2.1.1.1
            21 June 2013 at 9:08 pm

            Thanks CV. And I now note that MRP shares closed today at $2.20. Which was my (totally uneducated) prediction/hope for the end of the week. And for this time next week – how about $2.15?

            While I last heard a couple of weeks ago that things were underway – ie thousands of dollars of taxpayers’ dollars were being paid out to consultants et – to prepare Meridian for sale in Oct, it seems to have gone very quiet….except for Tiwai Point revaluing themselves at basically zero.

            • Colonial Viper 13.2.1.1.1.1
              21 June 2013 at 9:40 pm

              After recent events, I presume National has gone on the war path to re-establish internal communications discipline. Making an example out of Dunne will be part of that.

      • chris73 13.2.2
        21 June 2013 at 5:26 pm

        Well I’m in it for the lomg haul so share price fluctuations dont really bother me…

      • North 13.2.3
        21 June 2013 at 6:34 pm

        That’s what it comes down to Hami Shearlie. And it’s not as though you’d be losing anyone promisingly Left at all.

        Hope it’s not being rude or churlish, certainly not intended, but on television the guy always looks like he needs a shave. Puts me in mind of the final (?) Kennedy/Nixon presidential debate in 1960. It’s still widely expressed that Nixon’s five o’clock shadow look cost him enough to lose by what was a small margin apparently.

        Anyway…….back to our sad reality. I doubt anyone can say hand on heart that Shonkey Python would NOT have been on the ropes for months and months now if Cunliffe had been at the helm.

        Even if gratuitously The Left could have done with that……..couldn’t we ?

    • Rich 13.3
      21 June 2013 at 12:24 pm

      There’s a large pool of voters too disillusioned to vote. If they see a genuine alternative in the Green Party, they might start. I remain fairly sure that National will win the next election and the Greens will be the largest party at the one after that.

    • Saarbo 13.4
      21 June 2013 at 1:41 pm

      Typical of this National Party, hopeless….Meridian float is all over, it wont happen I reckon, who would want to buy it.

      The only thing that this National Party gets right is its Crosby Textor inspired media strategy, disguising one of the most incompetent governments NZ has had since the 90’s.

  14. Winston Smith 14
    21 June 2013 at 12:30 pm

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10891965

    Yes…its performance pay but the unions are too greedy to see it.

    • framu 14.1
      21 June 2013 at 12:47 pm

      god – you make it so easy

      “an allowance to reward experienced teaching staff to the Education Ministry in its pay negotiation round, asking for as many allowances as possible.”

      “I think it could look like performance pay if you don’t take into consideration the development behind it and its intent.”

      “A staff member at NZEI said its members would not see it as performance pay because teachers’ achievement wouldn’t be based on raw National Standards data.”

      its the REPORTER making the logic jump to it being performance pay, its actually experience pay – theres a difference

      also – you do realise that teachers already have performance based pay? It happens just the same way as any other employee. The employer evaluates their performance and rewards them accordingly.

      What you’re cheering on is politicised pay and mob rule – if thats want you want, go nuts. No ones going to stop you – but at least understand what your arguing for

      • Winston Smith 14.1.1
        21 June 2013 at 2:02 pm

        Its the first step towards performance pay or performance by stealth whatever way you want to look at it.

        Obviously saying its performance pay straight out is going to cause a ruckus so you call it something else and everyones happy.

        Unions and their leaders arn’t that hard to deal with because the leaders are generally quite greedy and lazy

        • Te Reo Putake 14.1.1.1
          21 June 2013 at 2:18 pm

          Yeah, like you’ve ever dealt with any. Your ignorance about union matters is one of your most endearing traits, WS. It’s like you’ve forgotten more than you ever knew.

          • Winston Smith 14.1.1.1.1
            21 June 2013 at 2:44 pm

            Shucks you’ve got me blushing (which is making my co-workers give me some odd looks…)

            • North 14.1.1.1.1.1
              21 June 2013 at 6:35 pm

              Well then you’re a blushing fool……

            • Morrissey 14.1.1.1.1.2
              21 June 2013 at 10:25 pm

              The only reason this fool “Winston Smith” gets odd looks at work is no doubt because he says things as stupid and ignorant as he writes them.

              I pity his poor co-workers.

        • Draco T Bastard 14.1.1.2
          21 June 2013 at 6:33 pm

          Its the first step towards performance pay or performance by stealth whatever way you want to look at it.

          No it’s not. It’s career enhancement which probably has something to do with hierarchies, i/e, there just isn’t that many places at the top.

          You didn’t actually read past the first paragraph did you? You just read the bit about performance pay and left it at that – believing the misreporting.

  15. Colonial Viper 15
    21 June 2013 at 1:01 pm

    James Gandolfini (aka “Tony Soprano”) died aged 51.

    Damn shame, he had many of his best roles in front of him.

    • McFlock 15.1
      21 June 2013 at 1:32 pm

      yep. Very sad.

    • Te Reo Putake 15.2
      21 June 2013 at 2:26 pm

      Fat Tony’s one of my nicknames at footy. I kid myself it refers to Tony Soprano, (but really its the Simmos character). Gandolfini was also great as the hitman in True Romance, the best movie Tarantino never made.

      • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 15.2.1
        21 June 2013 at 2:34 pm

        True Romance. I love that movie. Hopper ft Walken alone worth the admission price.

      • Rob 15.2.2
        21 June 2013 at 4:34 pm

        “Fat Tony’s one of my nicknames at footy.” – dear god thats just ruined that favourite TV series for me. You sure it isnt fat fuk by any chance?

    • Rhinocrates 15.3
      21 June 2013 at 7:13 pm

      Bugger.

      No, not “bugger”. Fuck. Phuque. Fuketty fuck fuck and feck. And bottoms.

      Every account of him says that he was a wonderful guy – kind, generous, gentle. He once said that at home he was “a three hundred pound Woody Allen”. A lot of actors who play villains often are, and show skill at comedy (I’m thinking of Charles Dance, who always seems to play cold-hearted aristocrats and is incredibly warm and funny in interviews). You should see him in In the Loop

  16. Winston Smith 16
    21 June 2013 at 2:49 pm

    Still more good news for National, must suck being a leftie and having to be on the back foot all the time

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/8825983/Consumer-confidence-holding-up

    • Colonial Viper 16.1
      21 June 2013 at 4:39 pm

      Stop being impatient and give Shearer 6 more months to gain traction please.

      • chris73 16.1.1
        21 June 2013 at 5:28 pm

        Is there a subtle message in there..?

        • McFlock 16.1.1.1
          21 June 2013 at 5:38 pm

          the silent majority being silent again.

          • Colonial Viper 16.1.1.1.1
            21 June 2013 at 6:53 pm

            the silent stay at home majority.

            • Rhinocrates 16.1.1.1.1.1
              21 June 2013 at 6:56 pm

              All eight hundred thousand of them. Gathering recruits all the time…

              Don’t worry, I won’t be painting my roof (I’m not a homeowner after all). I’ll vote.

            • Arfamo 16.1.1.1.1.2
              21 June 2013 at 7:13 pm

              Give em a chance at online voting. They can get it wrong from the comfort of their own homes.

              • Colonial Viper …
                21 June 2013 at 8:35 pm

                My views on that are fairly clear. Apart from the systematic fraud and security issues, if someone can’t be bothered to put aside 45 minutes on a Saturday every 3 years to go vote, they can frak off.

                • Arfamo …
                  21 June 2013 at 9:34 pm

                  Fair enough. They can still get it wrong from the comfort of their own homes by not voting. It worked pretty well last time. (Only pulling ya leg – anyone who wants to vote under the current system and is housebound can do it, I know.)

        • Rhinocrates 16.1.1.2
          21 June 2013 at 6:50 pm

          Yeah, six months, then three, then 6 weeks, then 3 weeks, then 10 days, then a week, then a day, then an hour, then a minute, then a second, then a millisecond – don’t worry, he still has a microsecond to – God help us – “scrape by”!

          Never underestimate the power of denial – or entitlement.

  17. felix 17
    21 June 2013 at 8:27 pm

    Here’s a funny thing. I just heard Na Raihania on the radio saying the reason to vote for him is that he’ll be “at the table” straight away, whereas none of the others can be “at the table” until National get the boot.

    Same waffle that that old fool Pita Sharples comes out with every time he’s asked why anyone should pretend the maori Party are a serious political movement.

    Couple of things about that. First, it’s a lie. The maori Party do not sit “at the table”.

    John Key and National’s deal with the maori Party specifically excludes them from the cabinet table. The only table they’re allowed to sit at with Key is at the Green Parrot, and the chances of him remembering anything said there are slim to none.

    So apart from being a tired old line, it’s also not even based on a fact. It’s the opposite of a fact. It’s a lie.

    The second thing is that even if it were true that the maori Party sit “at the table”, which it isn’t, they already have their two token Ministers (outside Cabinet). Does Na Raihania think he’s going to be a Minister if he wins the seat? Pfffffft whatever.

    Third thing is that Key doesn’t even know his name. And when asked why he endorsed a candidate who he couldn’t name, he said ‘cos I’ve heard good things about him’. Which means he knows so little about the guy that he can’t even make something up, and for a serial liar like Key that’s quite a fucking place to be.

    So I hope people voting in the by election understand that that’s how much influence he really has. He’s never going to be allowed to sit at the table with the PM who wouldn’t recognise him anyway.

    • Veutoviper 17.1
      21 June 2013 at 9:14 pm

      LOL – I also heard Na on RNZ National and thought (well perhaps it is better that I don’t say what). Not a good look, and dreaming me thinks.

    • Morrissey 17.2
      21 June 2013 at 10:21 pm

      The only table they’re allowed to sit at with Key is at the Green Parrot, and the chances of him remembering anything said there are slim to none.

      LOL. That is the Quip of the Week.

    • North 17.3
      21 June 2013 at 10:58 pm

      Ah…..The Green Parrot. Or “The ‘Arrot” as a mate of mine called it……….on account of the P on Parrot in the neon sign not glowing for ages, years. Fun days. Mid-to-late 70s Wellington.

      When the Pig was in charge.

      When Rob Campbell, serial corporate director including of late POA, was photographed in PYM regalia holding a bloody firearm.

      Damn……..I’m having this bizo going on in my head……..”At least The Pig was emotionally centred in New Zealand……..”

  18. North 18
    21 June 2013 at 9:31 pm

    This is for friend Morrissey:

    Imagine if it wasn’t “Afternoons with Mora” but instead it was “Afternoons with Graham Norton” (which is my viewing right now on 3).

    Sorry there Mensa Mora (Affable Cock), but Graham Norton muchmuchmuchmuchmuch cleverer than you, bro’. In all the ways that matter. Yeah……fair enough it’s a completely different genre but still……

    I’ll never forget the anagram of “Tory Cunts”. And the Graham Norton delivery. In fact I do forget the anagram itself but since the root was his whole point, that’s what I remembered.

    Clever and funny as hell ! Is there a link anywhere for that ?

    Akshilly………..in recent times I’ve heard MM on one or two occasions give comment on “issues” in a way that acknowledges the real life depth and scope of the “issue”. Like maybe his immensity has finally cottoned on to a human vibe which involves at least trying to imagine walking someone elses’ mocassins.

    As opposed to the irritating Gushing Hurrah Henry-Ness of the man and the vanity of his slip into foreign European language to make a point in English. Hhmm……….no facility I note in Polynesian or Maori language.

    In fact I emailed him once to say, lightly of course, “Dear Jime-Mow-Ray…….listen chap, its not Hon-A Harawira, its Haw-Neh…….

    Didn’t even get a response. Was expecting some sparkling eurocentric wit. Not a giggle and no improvement either.

  19. Morrissey 19
    21 June 2013 at 10:11 pm

    Didn’t even get a response. Was expecting some sparkling eurocentric wit. Not a giggle and no improvement either.

    You should have included a racist rant and signed it “Michael Bassett.” He would have read it then.

    • North 19.1
      21 June 2013 at 11:18 pm

      Bassett ? Bassett ??

      Years ago worked in Mt Albert. Near to, I think it was Kelly’s Caltex, in the dip at the bend 300 metres east of Mt Albert lights on New North Road. Closed now.

      Well, I pull in there to get some gas and who should be fluffing around putting gas in his pretty tawdry BMW, squinting embarrassingly through his spectacles, but Michael (What a Baaaad Speech) Bassett.

      Honestly, it ran through my head to march up to him and denounce him as a simpering fucking scab.

      Didn’t.

      Doesn’t change the fact. Him and all the others. They did a bigger con-job than Crosby Textor could dream about. Paradoxically, riding the “Labour Bus” all the way to the scab launching pad.

      While also using and abusing the fineness which resided in David Lange.

      • Murray Olsen 19.1.1
        22 June 2013 at 6:28 pm

        I was walking my dog once when we came across Roger Douglas and some rich pricks in a sidewalk restaurant on Jervois Rd. I loudly informed the dog that if she knew what an asshole he was, she’d bite him. A few people laughed, probably at me rather than with me, but that’s life.

  20. Anne 20
    22 June 2013 at 8:00 pm

    I remember that petrol station North. Disappeared years ago. Just up the road (back towards the traffic lights) there was a small community hall – now the community constable’s office – where we held our monthly electorate meetings. Those were the days when we used to have as many as 25 to 30 people attend our ordinary business meetings. When Helen Clark became our candidate (1980) I recall her arriving on the noisiest motorscooter that I’ve ever encountered. We could hear her coming 1/2 a kilometre away – slight exaggeration. Fortunately she exchanged it for a car soon afterwards.

    I never found out what exactly happened, but she had an almighty row with Michael Bassett and anyone who dared mention his name during the campaign period that followed invariably ended up with a flea in their ear. Those were the days when Helen was still able to be her natural self.

    I miss her. I miss her stewardship of the country.

    Btw, did you know that Bassett and Lange were related. Second cousins I think it was.