Open Mike 22/10/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 22nd, 2018 - 141 comments
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141 comments on “Open Mike 22/10/2018 ”

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  1. Ed 1
    22 October 2018 at 7:25 am

    What was the issue that was so dangerous?
    With JLR now unable to release the tapes on Barclay, English and Key, we may never know.

    But we were given snippets before Saturday.
    Was it the influence of Chinese money that would be revealed?
    A Christchurch academic was burgled for investigating.
    JLR mentioned he knew stuff going back to 2011.

    Follow the money.
    Chinese money.

    “On social media, the surprise and startled shock by ordinary New Zealander’s at the ease with which China could make a play for this level of political influence has been met with an equally stunned reaction at how far the NZ news industry has avoided this naked attempt at subjugation of our sovereignty.

    Aside from the odd token guest opinion piece and Bernard Hickey over at newsroom, the majority of the NZ media have not focused on this extraordinary attempt to infiltrate the largest political party in NZ in favour of MeToo framed anonymous allegations of bullying and harassment of women by JLR.

    When the National Party has become little more than a front for Chinese Business interests with an alleged spy inside their caucus and Jenny Shipley, Don Brash, Ruth Richardson and Chris Tremain Director’s of the China Construction Bank, Judith Collins interaction with Chinese Officials to help her husbands Chinese Company, Oravida, to gain more Chinese money and Maurice Williamson’s love affair with Donghua Liu seeing him become Liu’s personal handyman when doing up Liu’s batch and heavying the Police to drop domestic violence charges it is more than fair to start demanding far more scrutiny and public debate towards China’s power over our economy and political system, especially when the academic who is highlighting this influence is being intimidated and having her house broken into by Chinese agents.

    There is one main force at work that self censors any critique or investigation of Chinese influence in New Zealand Politics and that is whenever anyone attempts to critique Chinese influence in NZ, they are inevitably decried as racist and xenophobic. Most NZ Journalists are on twitter and many play to various woke echo chambers and few would dare risk the social media pile on wrath of the woke by printing any criticism of China that could be interpreted as racist or xenophobic.”

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/10/21/why-the-media-and-politicians-are-so-silent-on-chinese-influence-in-nz-and-what-you-need-to-do/

    “Influence under the guise of political donations and MPs who have tangible links to the China Government is definitely the elephant in the room which neither National nor Labour are ready to acknowledge.
    Ever since New Zealand became the first developed country to forge a free trade alliance with China, New Zealand’s collective will and international reputation of doing the right thing has dramatically eroded.”

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/369125/the-perils-of-all-pervading-chinese-money

    • Dennis Frank 1.1
      22 October 2018 at 7:42 am

      It’s another walk & chew gum thing. We can trade with China while using our foreign policy to criticise their lack of civil rights law and suppression of dissidents and indigenous peoples. It’s just that the Nat/Lab duopoly can’t do both simultaneously. They seem to agree amongst themselves that doing both is too hard.

      We can blame both democracy and mainstreamers for this selection of politicians so obsessed with cowardice as a political necessity. Democracy is a system that selects mediocrity as output, and mainstreamers vote for people as mediocre as themselves.

      • Ed 1.1.1
        22 October 2018 at 7:49 am

        We have been warned……

        “A leading academic has called for New Zealand to follow Australia and take the threat of China’s growing influence in its affairs seriously.

        Professor Anne-Marie Brady from the University of Canterbury says Australia is planning to introduce a law against foreign interference activities at the end of the year and may ban all foreign political donations. She says New Zealand should do the same.

        Brady, acknowledged internationally as an expert on Chinese affairs, has just presented a paper to a conference in the United States entitled Magic Weapons: China’s political influence activities under Xi Jinping.

        She said that after watching China’s growing influence for several years, it was time for a special commission to investigate its impact on New Zealand’s democracy.

        Brady said recent revelations that National Party MP Dr Jian Yang did not declare his background in military intelligence when applying for citizenship are extremely concerning.”

        https://t.co/UXxgzhRPqN?amp=1

        • RedLogix 1.1.1.1
          22 October 2018 at 7:54 am

          Ed … two very cogent and useful comments. HC’s FTA with China was the one big thing she did that I felt was deeply unwise. NZ was just too small a country to effectively resist the inevitable pressures we would be subject to.

          And sure enough it’s come to pass.

        • Ad 1.1.1.2
          22 October 2018 at 8:53 am

          New Zealand just happens to count itself as the most ethical trader in the world – most law abiding, most green, least corrupt, smallest military, no strategic interests: most virtuous and least noticeable large exporter in the world – while at the same time New Zealand is completely dependent on some of the most autocratic countries in the world for that trade.

          You can do a list of those autocracies but it includes almost all major oil exporters, China, all the post-Soviet states, multiple African countries: collectively run by despots, corrupt governments, and complete nut jobs.

          So New Zealand’s pattern of trade against its pattern of international statements about the virtues and vices of other parts of the world are either totally divorced from its trade positions, or are usefully disconnected from the stuff that make us the money to fund our way of life.

          This price of doing business is only going to get higher and higher as democracy goes rapidly into retreat around the world.

          • SaveNZ 1.1.1.2.1
            22 October 2018 at 12:05 pm

            NZ virtue has become a myth over the last 30 years and particularly in the last decade. We are spinning clean green policy, under the covers it is anything but.

      • RedLogix 1.1.2
        22 October 2018 at 7:51 am

        Democracy is a system that selects mediocrity as output, and mainstreamers vote for people as mediocre as themselves.

        With respect Dennis, that reads with more than a touch of elitist arrogance.

        The democracy we have is far from perfect, but it’s still way better than any other system we know about. It balances the conservative instinct to protect and sustain what we already have and know works, while balancing this with the liberals drive to innovate and change.

        It’s a balancing act between reliably keeping the system going, while embracing just enough new ideas to adapt to a changing environment and prevent stagnation. The output may not meet your high standards of enlightened progressiveness, but it works up to a point.

        The real mediocrity arises not at a nation state scale, but globally. That’s where there is a real vacuum of democratic accountability.

        • Dennis Frank 1.1.2.1
          22 October 2018 at 8:56 am

          It’s probably due to my being an arrogant elitist, an identity I adopted in adolescence, still in the mix in the back there, behind all the other identities that have formed since. It comes to the fore out of necessity sometimes, when circumstances provoke it.

          Since the only way to solve an endemic social problem starts with describing it, I outlined the design flaw in democracy, and the social psychology the system uses to entrench problematic behaviour. Politicians as sociopaths isn’t as novel a concept as you may think. I’m just elucidating the mechanism that produces it. You could argue that the system could produce a politician capable of being a positive role model at any time. True, could happen. Produced Mandela.

          In respect to the optimal foreign policy in regard to totalitarian states, a political leader would operate as a positive role model by explaining where and how they are going wrong, in suggesting they become civilised. Naturally the communist regime in China wouldn’t like arrogant elitism being applied to them: they believe they have a natural monopoly on it. They’d feel, as Elvis Presley once sang, all shook up. That’s how to shift the buggers.

        • Janet 1.1.2.2
          22 October 2018 at 1:11 pm

          Yes Redlogix .. far from perfect….balancing act is vacillating too widely . We need a new parties and we need to improve our parliamentary system to stabilise transition when ruling party’s change over, eg the Swiss have 7 long term ministers selected proportionally from main parties, the Bundesrat, Their president , one of this group, is changed annually.

          • RedLogix 1.1.2.2.1
            22 October 2018 at 1:40 pm

            Indeed given that it is the calibre of the people whom we entrust to serve as leaders which is what really counts, you have to ask whether parties bring any real value at all.

            I’ve long quietly nurtured the rather heretic idea that we might be better served by getting rid of political parties altogether … and focus on electing the best people. OK so a tad idealistic in the present context, but not totally nuts either.

            • Incognito 1.1.2.2.1.1
              22 October 2018 at 3:13 pm

              I also like to think that political parties do more harm than good but don’t favour a technocracy/meritocracy because this has inherent risks as well, possibly even worse than the current party-based system.

              • greywarshark …
                22 October 2018 at 4:15 pm

                I think it would be a good idea if everybody had to achieve a pass in a varied course in development etc. to ensure that they know more than their own personal educational, family and work experience provides.
                The whole idea of thinking beyond the personal and group connections to a whole country spectru

                And just gaining a political degree would not be enough. The course would cover all aspects required of pollies by their electorate which would probably make it broader and shallower and require things like ‘communication’ and learning to listen and retain conversations and consultations, and how to run meetings so that people are encouraged to put ideas forward, and how to take notes and keep tidy notes and attribute names, contacts personally, not relying on workers and secretaries always.

                • KJT …
                  22 October 2018 at 4:25 pm

                  Much simpler answer. Take the power away from politicians in binding referenda, like the Swiss. Effectively the public act as an upper house.

                  Politicians have already demonstrated the fallacy of the assumption, that they think more deeply, have more wisdom, or pay more attention to evidence, than the public as a whole.

      • Wayne 1.1.3
        22 October 2018 at 8:31 am

        I have personally never seen any overt Chinese influence of the type described by Professor Brady.
        Yes, the Chinese community in NZ have built relations with both major parties. But that seems more like getting credentialed in NZ society. I certainly have not seen anything sinister or alarming in the way it is done, though it is different to traditional NZ society. Lots more dinners, not many barbecues!
        Yes, NZ puts a lot off effort into the Chinese relationship. So we should. Part of that is making sure that we can be independent of both US and China, a balancing act if you will.
        That is not easy. Both major powers try and influence NZ. And we don’t just ignore them and their entreaties. But at least to me we seem to managing the balance quite well.

        • cleangreen 1.1.3.1
          22 October 2018 at 8:47 am

          Go away Wayne Mapp!!!

          We don’t want any more lies from you and your national Party as we have seen what it has now done to us all.

          • WILD KATIPO 1.1.3.1.1
            22 October 2018 at 9:49 pm

            Good on you , Cleangreen !!!

            Champion , mate !!!

            Couldn’t have said it better myself , though I’ll try. Wayne, get some glasses that enable you to see the world around you. And after that , try back- reading on articles in the news that CLEARLY show Chinese surreptitious political interference in this country, – particuary over the last decade which , coincidentally , happens to coincide with John Keys govt..

            Go a little further and look at the ‘plausible deniability ‘ that we the public kept getting fed from the likes of greedy traitors such as yourself. We know you had a sweet deal for you and yours because along with lucrative trade deals by which those in the loop gained handsome long term profits , – it also served the dual purpose of shitting on working people by ensuring downwards pressure on wages , – thus ensuring your small business voter base.

            Never mind the fact your beloved neo liberalism caused Kiwis to migrate to Australia decades ago.

            ( There are now over 650,000 Kiwis calling Australia home, – 650,000 !!!! )

            Meanwhile , – as family’s slept in cars despite holding down two full time jobs ON those low wages and not being able to afford the basic necessity’s such as rent, power etc, – you and your little grasper’s happily encouraged a housing bubble that displaced Kiwis and gave opportunity to overseas investors, – PARTICULARLY from China.

            ( We wont mention the cozy little tax haven for overseas funds that Key was building, though , – where have they all gone now if they weren’t so dodgy ? )

            Oh yes, … we have in the National party a character who was training Chinese nationals on surveillance for the CCP military,.. but no worrys , eh mate – National happily gave him an MP’s job DESPITE the Australians objecting to the spy.

            And I suppose YOU deem yourself an expert on geopolitical relations and spy activity and are the final authority to refute what greater minds than you have deemed the ‘ soft power’ creep of the Chinese govt…

            Oh yes, – they are all wrong and ONLY YOU are right, Wayne,… but don’t worry , bud, – its all just a mirage in peoples minds in whats taking place in Africa right now as we speak. And I suppose you think all those Chinese military bases in the South China sea they created out of sand are really just holiday resorts for the wealthy Chinese elite…

            Launching pads for ICBM’s??!!

            PSHAW !!! – have another hotdog and don’t worry, eh mate.

            Tell me , … ‘WAYNE’ … just how did Operation Burnham treat you mate , – if INDEED you are quite the ‘expert’ on foreign / geopolitical relations???

            • patricia bremner 1.1.3.1.1.1
              22 October 2018 at 11:57 pm

              The Adverts in the election with Bill English surrounded by blue shirted Chinese..

              ring bells Wayne??? What was that about Wayne???

        • Ad 1.1.3.2
          22 October 2018 at 9:00 am

          I would like to hear a lot more Chinese commenters on this site tell us the truth.

          I personally believe there is a gulf between Chinese cultural and capital influence in New Zealand (particularly Auckland), and Chinese central government influence.

          I have no doubt the Chinese government looks to influence our government as they have the Australian federal government. And our government could be bolder saying that – particularly to support Australia since they do all our heavy lifting in this area.

          But the left would be more credible if it overtly supported Chinese cultural influence in New Zealand. Whole suburbs are dedicated to Chinese people, they prop up our tertiary sector, much of our housing markets, our restaurants, our tourism … our dairy sector. And through the gfc all of that really mattered.

          We would do better discerning good paranoia from bad if we took some serious Mandarin lessons.

          • Bill 1.1.3.2.1
            22 October 2018 at 11:19 am

            I would like to hear a lot more Chinese commenters on this site …

            Commenters who advertised their Chinese ethnicity on this site have previously been bated, goaded and then banned. (And no, that’s not a discrete reference to CV in case you wondered).

            Xenophobia and liberalism kinda (too) often go hand in hand. Unsurprisingly.

            • SaveNZ 1.1.3.2.1.1
              22 October 2018 at 12:38 pm

              Well CV got banned and remember that pro Chinese /anti Kiwi poster, I think they only lasted 24 hours before being permanently banned. (personally I thought it was good to get a range of views from Chinese as the woke lefties have a very idealised view of what Chinese think of Kiwis and I’m not sure that is the case… the truth obviously hurt, this person held deep rage against Kiwis and pretty much any other migrants who lived in NZ, and was quickly removed…)

            • KJT 1.1.3.2.1.2
              22 October 2018 at 4:33 pm

              The two I remember. One was an obviously hating troll.

              The other CV, seemed to have had some sort of personal crisis, affecting his, previously, intelligent level of debate

              Not removed for being Chinese.

        • Dennis Frank 1.1.3.3
          22 October 2018 at 9:08 am

          Not sure that Brady is fingering overt influence, Wayne, seems to me she’s describing covert influence. Possibly both. I have no problem with the Chinese here, generally speaking. Just with the communist infiltration. Having grown up surrounded by right-wingers staunchly opposing this, I find it puzzling to see Nats cuddling up to the communists.

          Holyoake & co would rightly feel betrayed by the current National Party. No problem with a balanced view, just don’t get sucked in by their wolf in sheep’s clothing strategy. I can see voters shifting away from National the more they see complicity and collusion with the communist regime.

          • Adrian 1.1.3.3.1
            22 October 2018 at 11:41 am

            The National party has always cossied up to the money.
            Farmers, banks, insurance companies and now the CCPs money.

        • ianmac 1.1.3.4
          22 October 2018 at 9:27 am

          “I have personally never seen any overt Chinese influence of the type described by Professor Brady.”
          Wayne you would not “see” any such influence let alone admit it if you did. Your credibility is pretty low and even lower after your appalling performance on Q&A last night.

          • Kat 1.1.3.4.1
            22 October 2018 at 12:07 pm

            I watched Q&A last night in disbelief. Michelle Boag, Wayne Mapp, Mike Williams and the nodding “Dr” apologist for a political scientist. Boag is simply a turn off and just not worth listening to as she repeats the National party mantra like a broken record ad nauseam. Why on earth can’t Q&A have a panel of non-partisan experts in their field commentators, not old party hacks and nodding salesmen. Professor Anne-Marie Brady and Catriona MacLennan talk sense and more should be heard of their views.

            • ianmac 1.1.3.4.1.1
              22 October 2018 at 12:16 pm

              Hear Hear Kat.

            • SaveNZ 1.1.3.4.1.2
              22 October 2018 at 12:39 pm

              I watched it about a month ago by accident and it was not too bad, then it just got worse and worse, just can’t watch that biased mush from the right and woke lefties anymore.

          • OnceWasTim 1.1.3.4.2
            22 October 2018 at 12:56 pm

            +1 @ ianmac. I only iistened to the ‘panel’ to confirm what I expected to hear from both Wayne and Boag’s lines. And Edwards (as usual) was all over the place.
            @ Wayne, despite your various ‘experiences’, you really have lead a bit of a sheltered life. Open your mind a bit man! It’ll fossilise if you’re not careful (Michelle’s already has)

        • Pat 1.1.3.5
          22 October 2018 at 9:36 am

          “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

          Upton Sinclair

          • greywarshark 1.1.3.5.1
            22 October 2018 at 1:17 pm

            Pat
            That is such a good one. And it is apt every day about some thing that arises to be questioned and reconsidered.

        • Ed 1.1.3.6
          22 October 2018 at 10:17 am

          Then you aren’t looking very carefully.
          Or you are lying.

        • Rosemary McDonald 1.1.3.7
          22 October 2018 at 10:32 am

          ” I certainly have not seen anything sinister or alarming in the way it is done, ”

          Well, that’s comforting to the rest of us Wayne. If you think there’s nothing to be concerned about we can all just quell that hard- to- define feeling of unease that’s been doing the rounds.

          Thanks.

          The Mushrooms.

          • Wayne 1.1.3.7.1
            22 October 2018 at 11:55 am

            I get it that people are uneasy.

            The way that at these dinners various Chinese people will bid very high amounts on auctions is not we typically have experienced. but at Chinese events that seems to be the norm, and has been so for more than a decade. I know that Labour has had the same experience.

            • OnceWasTim 1.1.3.7.1.1
              22 October 2018 at 1:14 pm

              Then perhaps although you may have listened to Brady, you chose not to hear what she was saying. Many immigrants (for example) see it as normal to bring koha to their advocates or elected representatives as a ‘thank you’.
              The ethical advocate would respectfully decline their offers and do their job simply because it’s what they’re supposedly there to do.

              I think it was David Lange who remarked that both Prebble and others had come to see their neo-liberal agenda as something in the nature of religion.
              (from memory in “My Life”)
              It’s bloody obvious that your religion is the National Party, and it actually transcends any Christian (or Sikh, or other) religion, letalone ‘faith’ you have.

            • Ankerrawshark 1.1.3.7.1.2
              22 October 2018 at 2:38 pm

              Ffs the old Labour does it too defense. Like you mean with the alleged $100,000.00 loan from dong liu just before the 2014……..that was never found.

              I am not saying labour have never received Donations from the Chinese but how about just for a change national take a long hard look at themselves rather the lie, deflect, coverup………

            • Stuart Munro 1.1.3.7.1.3
              22 October 2018 at 3:22 pm

              I don’t think you get it at all Wayne.

              After all, you’re one of the pathetic wretches selling us out.

            • KJT 1.1.3.7.1.4
              22 October 2018 at 4:35 pm

              “I was bribed”. “But that’s OK, because Labour does it too”.

          • greywarshark 1.1.3.7.2
            22 October 2018 at 1:44 pm

            Makes me think of a sort of old worker, union style song ‘My old man’s a dustman’ which quips about mushrooms.
            I say my bin’s full of toadstools. How do you know than then?
            Because there’s not muchroom inside?

            Silly patter but Lonnie Donnegan does it well for Labour Day for the union types who were inclined to be a bit careless!

            And hear it from the Strawbs. Get the 70’s fashion – great style.
            (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdOCWUgwiWs
            (click on Show more and get the lyrics)
            It seems that this is a German recording.

            Some years later – still good and passionate though some age changes!

            Some people have animated it – what do you think about the result?
            (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6npQJd9mTAI

        • KJT 1.1.3.8
          22 October 2018 at 4:29 pm

          You seem to be very good at ignoring things you don’t want to see, Wayne. I suppose that is an essential part of being a National MP. To avoid being driven insane by the ethical contradictions.

          By the way. I was never happy about the undue influence of US corporate money on our Government, either.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 1.1.3.9
          22 October 2018 at 5:17 pm

          “I have personally never seen any overt Chinese influence of the type described by Professor Brady.”

          A soothing, nothing-to-see-here statement from RW wormtongue Mapp.

          I wonder if the Honourable Wayne Mapp would care to further reassure readers here, by stating (for the record) that he does no know of any Chinese influence of the ‘type’ described by Professor Brady.

          Probably a bit much to ask of Wayne, after all, there are ~290 Chinese citizens for every NDer, and it would be unreasonable to expect him to be aware of all their influence, even if he was looking.

      • greywarshark 1.1.4
        22 October 2018 at 11:03 am

        DF
        Interesting. It doesn’t suit me to think about your ideas about democracy, so you shouldn’t say them, capiche! /sarc

      • SaveNZ 1.1.5
        22 October 2018 at 12:09 pm

        @Dennis Frank – careful you are starting to sell the idea popular amongst the far right and woke left against democracy aka Peter Thiel and Trump…

        Donald Trump, Peter Thiel and the death of democracy

        “In a 2009 essay called The Education of a Libertarian, Thiel declared that capitalism and democracy had become incompatible. Since 1920, he argued, the creation of the welfare state and “the extension of the franchise to women” had made the American political system more responsive to more people – and therefore more hostile to capitalism. Capitalism is not “popular with the crowd”, Thiel observed, and this means that as democracy expands, the masses demand greater concessions from capitalists in the form of redistribution and regulation.

        The solution was obvious: less democracy. But in 2009, Thiel despaired of achieving this goal within the realm of politics. How could you possibly build a successful political movement for less democracy?

        Fast forward two years, when the country was still slowly digging its way out of the financial crisis. In 2011, Thiel told George Packer that the mood of emergency made him “weirdly hopeful”. The “failure of the establishment” had become too obvious to ignore, and this created an opportunity for something radically new, “something outside the establishment”, to take root.”

        https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/21/peter-thiel-republican-convention-speech

        • Dennis Frank 1.1.5.1
          22 October 2018 at 12:20 pm

          I understand your concern. [insert big but, with bells on & whistles blowing] If the system is broke, fix it. Denial doesn’t get anyone anywhere. The issue of whether we succumb to a rightist narrative is a red herring. Operate from a position of strength and that won’t happen.

          “Capitalism is not “popular with the crowd”, Thiel observed, and this means that as democracy expands, the masses demand greater concessions from capitalists in the form of redistribution and regulation.”

          Have you actually seen the masses doing this? No, neither have I. So why assume any political potency to a delusional rightist? That was a decade back. Call trumpism a late reaction from a bunch of slow learners? Bit of a stretch.

    • Observer Tokoroa 1.2
      22 October 2018 at 8:21 am

      Hi There Ed

      Your Comment is excellent. I am so pleased you have written it for all to consider.

      Trading Democracy for Money is nothing short of Treason.

      National and Labour have duties to the people of New Zealanders first and foremost. I have not seen any attempt on the part of National to care for the bulk of New Zealanders over the past Decade.

      But the Wealthy – and that includes the Chinese – are doing very well …. the foreign Banks – the Wealthy north Americans – no problems eh ?

      Let us rinse John Key and Billy English out out out out of our Air and Water. They have damaged us like a cancerous virus.

      When New Zealanders have reasonable wealth, then of course we may offer them a share in our Nation. According to our Democracy.

      • Ed 1.2.1
        22 October 2018 at 8:27 am

        “Let us rinse John Key and Billy English out out out out of our Air and Water.”

        My fear is that the media will not investigate JLR’s claims about Chinese donations.
        I believe we were on the brink of discovering how corrupt the National Party is and how compromised it is by Chinese cash.

        • cleangreen 1.2.1.1
          22 October 2018 at 8:49 am

          I fully agree with Observer Tokoroa on this.

          Why haven’t a police spokesperson spoke up about the incrseration ond muffing of Jami Lee Ross?

          We must demand a independent investigation into this muzzling and forced incarceration of Jami Lee Ross immediately as this looks like being where we are entering into a “police State” situation now.

          This makes the Police raid in the urawheres look tame by comparison.

          • tc 1.2.1.1.1
            22 October 2018 at 9:34 am

            Or teapot tapes, Hagar raid and slaters diversion…..3 of the more we’ll known items of police actions with a whiff of political intervention about them.

        • SaveNZ 1.2.1.2
          22 October 2018 at 12:16 pm

          Those in power are so worried, they packed Ross off to be forcibly committed in a mental asylum by the sound of it, before he releases more incriminating evidence… another sign democracy, corruption of our political system, and destruction of freedom of speech in NZ is not only under attack but also seems to be gaining strength.

          My guess security services is looking for more incriminating tapes while he is out of the way and to give him a big scare to keep his mouth shut with further revelations against key political figures and offshore billionaires.

          • Dukeofurl 1.2.1.2.1
            22 October 2018 at 2:11 pm

            You are onto saveNZ.

            What the bigwigs who really run national are scared witless about is the big donors drying up. After all who would give a substantial donation under ‘special arrangements’ if the details are then splashed over the newspapers

            They dont really care about Bridges or Bennett and especially dont care about Ross, National endures before they were around and after they have gone.

            National is still in legal peril as Ross was at the heart of the party for some time. While some say there is ‘no evidence’, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence and of course in any trial Ross would be a credible witness… or not credible if he can be utterly and totally smeared with insanity smear. he may well be under severe stress and suffering depression, but it would be highly treatable and with ongoing care would still be able to function OK.

            None of that comes to pass if the anti-psychotic drugs are given in a locked ward situation.
            It would be years before he could function again…which would suit a certain party very well.

            • SaveNZ 1.2.1.2.1.1
              22 October 2018 at 2:21 pm

              Yes, I think he needed to be silenced because there was more to come…

            • SaveNZ 1.2.1.2.1.2
              22 October 2018 at 3:19 pm

              Also now they have him out of the way MSM are now running stories against him… gutless.. not investigating massive political corruption backed up by taped evidence..

        • Janet 1.2.1.3
          22 October 2018 at 1:21 pm

          I too worry about this. Who actually decided and arranged for the sectioning of JLR out of reach?

          • SaveNZ 1.2.1.3.1
            22 October 2018 at 1:59 pm

            Apparently you need a doctor and a psychiatrist to commit someone, only for people who are a danger to themselves and others…and for only a set period of time , it is very rare and so obviously very out of the ordinary for this to happen, normally you need to be jumping off a bridge or attacking people with weapons (not tapes) to meet the forcible criteria – I guess they are really getting to the bottom of the barrel when we consider the danger to to others might be his allegations backed up with tapes he is releasing to the public and very damaging to the National party…

            • Dukeofurl 1.2.1.3.1.1
              22 October 2018 at 2:54 pm

              yes. The police are normally only involved when someone is needs restraining or is threatning others, otherwise they have Manukau area crisis teams can come to see someone like Ross who was apparently at work and after talking with him the experts decide the next steps.
              seems to me like there was some ‘remote diagnosis’ here by maybe a psychiatrist who was engaged by someone who felt Ross was either threatening himself or others, and this person called the police.

              • JohnSelway …
                22 October 2018 at 5:31 pm

                You have been corrected on this over and over again. Police are often called out instead of the crisis team which are too frequently overstretched.

                Links have been made available to you yet you still get saying the same thing. You are lying

            • solkta 1.2.1.3.1.2
              22 October 2018 at 5:39 pm

              You don’t have any facts yet as usual you prattle on regardless.

          • xanthe 1.2.1.3.2
            22 October 2018 at 2:13 pm

            well one theory as to who arranged the committing is here

            https://twitter.com/KimDotcom/status/1054128967525982209

            • Anne 1.2.1.3.2.1
              22 October 2018 at 5:45 pm

              Well, you can’t rule that out of contention for one minute. Cameron Slater has plenty of form in this area. He’s been used by National and Key in the past so no surprise if this proves to be what happened.

              Slater commented a few days ago that he’s had very little to do with JLR since 2014 and “Dirty Politics”, and now all of a sudden he’s in the picture again.

              • Dennis Frank …
                22 October 2018 at 5:57 pm

                More of that here! https://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2018/10/nationals-hit-job-puts-jlr-into-care/#more-417113 Cue sound of shit hitting fan again…

                • Anne …
                  22 October 2018 at 6:22 pm

                  So, who is telling the truth? For once I think it might be Cameron Slater. God, I don’t believe I typed that. 😯

                  After Dirty Politics Slater got dropped like a stone by the Nats. I understand they have refused to have anything to do with him since. So, I’m picking he has a very large axe to grind.

                  Phew… the Nat strategists are working 24/7 at the mo. Anyone who watched the Q&A panel last night will appreciate what I mean.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    22 October 2018 at 6:35 pm

                    Yes, seemed to me Slater was telling us his personal experiences. Confirms that JLR was taken Saturday night – so Stuff were correct and all the other media reports were pushing a snow-job by either or both Nats & police to cover-up the lack of reporting to either his wife or the media until around the middle of the day on Sunday.

                    Re Q+A, the exec producer obviously thought a discussion of political management would suffice. Usual media preference for trivia. Contrast on the tv news tonight! TV3 lead with Tova O’Brien’s update on JLR’s situation. She seemed satisfied by reassurances provided by a couple of friends of his, reported he was happy with his care-givers. TVNZ ignored his situation (as far as my channel-hopping could tell).

                    Did you see Slater’s description of the female harassment complainants & their relationship to Bridges? New info from him.

                    • Anne …
                      22 October 2018 at 6:56 pm

                      Agreed. There’s a major snow job in operation as we speak. At this point I’m willing to assume its just the Nats along with their powerful business mates who might be supplying some of the man power needed behind the scenes.

                      Did you see Slater’s description of the female harassment complainants & their relationship to Bridges? New info from him.

                      Yes. They have been doing a hatchet job on Slater over the past few days. I have heard one or two of them savaging him during interviews including Madam Boag. They’re trying to discredit him before he starts spilling…..

                      I have had more than my fair share of this type of behaviour over the years so can spot it in an instant. 🙂

      • Ad 1.2.2
        22 October 2018 at 9:03 am

        Democracy itself is not some golden immutable virtue.

        Democracy is just non-monetised trade.

        We simply make the exchange with votes.

        And we compromise all the way.

        Just like any other trade.

        • Stuart Munro 1.2.2.1
          22 October 2018 at 10:36 am

          If you think so you’re thinking of a low end or formal democracy like polyarchy, not a high end form like consensus democracy. The former is not much better than oligarchy, the latter can be an empowering social movement.

        • greywarshark 1.2.2.2
          22 October 2018 at 11:04 am

          Ad
          Ooh-er Daddy you are so wise. You could just be right. (Grudgingly.)

          But, but Stuart Munro!

        • Incognito 1.2.2.3
          22 October 2018 at 11:05 am

          Indeed, Ad, we see & treat democracy as a commodity with only two questions: how much does it cost (me) and what do I get from it? And the ‘market’ always knows best, of course.

          Democracy used to be a historical system that aligns society’s values with current best practice of governing a nation. As such it requires active & constant attention of the populace, not just ticking a box once every three years to maximise one’s material gains & possession. The same applies to government-level of thinking & acting.

          We get exactly what we vote for …

        • SaveNZ 1.2.2.4
          22 October 2018 at 12:12 pm

          Very popular idea that democracy is overrated… by the far right of course, also popular with Blairites, totalitarian governments, woke lefties and ex communist governments.

          Lucky billionaires have plenty of money to populate the idea further and buy citizenship around the world.

          https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/21/peter-thiel-republican-convention-speech

      • SaveNZ 1.2.3
        22 October 2018 at 12:13 pm

        +1 Trading Democracy for Money is nothing short of Treason.

  2. Ffloyd 2
    22 October 2018 at 10:12 am

    Paula Bennett is a deeply flawed hypocritical excuse for a human being. Just reading back to her threats of legal action against people commenting on line about her’personal previous history’ Brought out the big guns. Now look what she has done. She needs to be removed from parliament [deleted].

    [Seriously?! I really hate having to delete sections of comments Ffloyd. Compel me to do it again and you’re going for a skite] – B

  3. Carolyn_Nth 3
    22 October 2018 at 10:16 am

    Sorry I was unable to attend the re-thinking trade and investment event a couple of days ago – busy with work stuff.

    But RNZ has a short report on it, and I hope a video of the livestream will go online.

    New Zealand needs to adopt a more inclusive trade strategy rather than serving “privileged commerical interests”, a University of Auckland professor has said.
    …
    The comments were made at an event hosted by the University of Auckland which looked at trade in relation to climate change, workers rights, and Māori.

    One of the event’s organisers, professor Jane Kelsey, said the time was right for our trading agreements to reflect the objectives we had as a society.

    “At present they are quite out of sync, they exist largely to [serve] privileged commercial interests and are driven especially by the negotiating agendas of other countries and people and communities feel disempowered and disengaged from that process,” she said.
    …
    “There is a real momentum internationally and there is a risk that momentum for change may go through an authoritarian approach that doesn’t reflect the kind of values they want.

    “The challenge we have is to make sure that the change is genuinely progressive.”

    There is also a very important article by Kelsey on the It’s Our Future website which explains clearly why we need a new direction politically, by using her in-depth knowledge of trade deals as a case study.

    • greywarshark 3.1
      22 October 2018 at 11:06 am

      I have put Jane Kelsey Radionz link on the Labour Day website which is taking second place to the mental health one. Quite revealing I think.

      I noted this when I was looking on line at Celebrity Speakers page. I wondered where the protean Bob Parker ex Mayor of Christchurch had got to.
      Recently appointed a Senior Follow at the University of Canterbury, he is now committed to a series of governance roles in both the private and charity sector, including as Chairman of the Board for a joint China-New Zealand property development company, and in high demand as a speaker on vision, strategy and leadership.
      https://www.celebrityspeakers.co.nz/bob-parker/

      I love the Freudian slip – a Senior Follow – very apt.

  4. marty mars 4
    22 October 2018 at 10:56 am

    A well deserved award.

    A major accolade in this year’s Research Honours Aotearoa Awards for University of Waikato professor Linda Tuhīwai Smith.

    The Ngāti Awa and Ngāti Porou wahine was the first winner of Te Puawaitanga, an award created by Māori research centre Ngā Pae o Te Māramatanga and the Royal Society Te Apārangi, in recognition of the eminent and distinctive contribution she has made to Te Ao Māori, and to Māori and Indigenous knowledge.

    Nga Pae o Te Māramtanga co-director Dr Jacinta Ruru says Professor Smith is recognised internationally for her work on decolonisation, and she has given other Māori and indigenous scholars methodologies and theories to build on.

    https://www.waateanews.com/waateanews/x_story_id/MjAzOTA=/Decolonising-Smith-wins-top-science-tohu

  5. Rosemary McDonald 5
    22 October 2018 at 12:35 pm

    Kirsty Johnston reprises and updates her extraordinarily well constructed article about ‘unassigned sexual assaults’ from May…https://www.nzherald.co.nz/crime/news/article.cfm?c_id=30&objectid=12042963

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/crime/news/article.cfm?c_id=30&objectid=12146421

    ” Numbers of unassigned rape cases are climbing rapidly, prompting criticism police are under-resourcing investigations into sexual violence.

    The monthly backlog of adult sexual assault files waiting to be assigned to a detective has risen by 78 per cent in two years, to an average 180 each month in the last three months.

    The Northland region alone had 45 sexual assault cases unassigned in September, the highest of any police district, and twice that of the next-highest area, Central.

    At the same time, official data shows, reporting rates for sexual assault have remained almost unchanged.”

    • SaveNZ 5.1
      22 October 2018 at 12:46 pm

      I noticed that 50yo rich lister that got off importing drugs charges the other day, had Ketamine as part of his imports apparently.

      Ok so isn’t Ketamine one of those ingredients of ‘rape’ drugs of choice?

      So weird the judges thought P, Ketamine and Coke should have that criminal conviction quashed … sounds like we buy justice in NZ, not only that, apparently someone where posted a link that our government are trying to pass that new law where its a crime to question judges.. I guess that makes it easier for corruption and discrimination to blossom in NZ when the judiciary is not held to account and can’t be easily questioned…

      • greywarshark 5.1.1
        22 October 2018 at 1:52 pm

        In his judgment, Justice Simon France said there were six charges in total. Parcels containing drugs were intercepted in February, March and May 2017.

        Babich admitted and explained he had ordered the drugs through the Dark Web, and gave police access to his computer, accounts and passwords.

        He had no previous convictions other than two driving offences.

        The judgment said the once-successful businessman had fallen on difficult times and around the time of the offending he was depressed.

        Now I feel depressed. What can Justice Simon France do to help me?
        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/108005567/member-of-wealthy-wine-family-has-drug-charges-overturned

      • Dukeofurl 5.1.2
        22 October 2018 at 2:04 pm

        The usual excuse is trotted out: affect future employment as the family wine company will be sending him overeas for sales roles.

        To be honest is someone is importing those drugs he admitted there a good chance hes long been a drug addict anyway. They arent the stuff 50 yr old would do unless that he was previously very familiar with them.

        • SaveNZ 5.1.2.1
          22 October 2018 at 2:17 pm

          I think the difference in justice between this drug addict whose importing and poorer drug addicts who are caught importing, is the big question to be answered.

          The guy was given a tiny conviction with community service, not happy with that, he somehow managed to go back and get that inexplicably removed from his record. Other addicts get jail. He gets nothing. His record expunged.

          The choices of drugs is also questionable whether for his own use or sale aka Ketamine or something more sinister.

        • Gabby 5.1.2.2
          22 October 2018 at 4:50 pm

          I wonder if the Delegats family lawyer is the same.

      • One Two 5.1.3
        22 October 2018 at 5:14 pm

        It’s an anaesthetic…

        ‘Weird’ only if viewed through a perspective where the ‘judicial system’ and actors exist as anything other than the gatekeepers they are…

        • SaveNZ 5.1.3.1
          22 October 2018 at 6:09 pm

          Ketamine is used as a date rape drug….

          Ketamine

          Ketamine is extremely fast-acting. You might be aware of what is happening to you, but unable to move. It also causes memory problems. Later, you might not be able to remember what happened while you were drugged. Ketamine can cause these side effects:

          Lost sense of time and identity
          Out of body experiences
          Dream-like feeling
          Feeling out of control
          Impaired motor functionimages-8
          Problems breathing
          Convulsions
          Vomiting
          Memory problems
          Numbness
          Loss of coordination
          Aggressive or violent behavior
          Depression
          High blood pressure
          Slurred speech Continue Reading
          Protect yourself from these date rape drugs

          http://www.drinkcop.com/2018/06/16/ghb-ketamine-side-effects-date-rape-drugs/

    • Rosemary McDonald 5.2
      22 October 2018 at 4:55 pm

      Well, bugger me.

      How did it go from an increasing trend by the police to simply sideline complaints of rape to the rich lister’s brat getting away Scott free with importing Class A drugs?

      Struggling here to find a connection.

      This is the second article by Kirsty Johnston on this and it points to something significantly awry in police processes or culture.

  6. millsy 6
    22 October 2018 at 1:16 pm

    Chinese influence in NZ would be OK if it was more the communist side than the capitalist side, ie land ownership and redistribution, rural medicine, infrastructure investment, elimination of drug addiction (the Communists in China wiped out opium addiction in 2 generations), etc. Even the implementation of special ecomonic zones.

    • SaveNZ 6.1
      22 October 2018 at 2:07 pm

      I think we all need to be conscious power corrupts, whether capitalist or communist or anywhere in between, which is why we have democracy so theoretically we can vote them out!

      Nowadays it has become possible to influence democracy in many ways, aka centralised global media, lobbyists destroying regulation and safeguards, donations, Cambridge Analytica cyber influences, hacking of online elections, privatisation, globalisation, rise of political “Charities” like the Clinton Foundation that other governments ‘give to’, tax havens and legalised money laundering, the corporation of natural assets…. etc etc

    • James Thrace 6.2
      22 October 2018 at 8:06 pm

      They wiped out opium addiction by sentencing to death anyone who smoked or sold it.

      Hardly the model to follow.

  7. joe90 7
    22 October 2018 at 1:23 pm

    Blessed are the arms dealers, for thine name is piece maker…

    A prominent evangelical leader told viewers to “cool down the tempers of those who are screaming blood for the Saudis” and not risk a $100 billion arms deal over the apparent death of Saudi-born journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

    Appearing on Christian television show “The 700 Club,” Pat Robertson, founder of the Christian Broadcasting Network, said America’s relationship with Saudi Arabia is too important to risk.

    “These people are key allies,” Robertson said Monday on the show, first reported by Right Wing Watch. “I don’t think on this issue we need pull sanctions and get tough. I just think it’s a mistake.”

    https://thehill.com/policy/international/411949-evangelical-leader-going-after-saudi-arabia-for-disappearance-of

    • millsy 7.1
      22 October 2018 at 1:45 pm

      Should be expected, given that Pat Robertson’s views on social issues dovetail with the views of the Saudis.

    • SaveNZ 7.2
      22 October 2018 at 2:11 pm

      Maybe if somebody cut his fingers off while picking up a marriage document and cuts him up alive he might feel differently… there is a lack of morals, lack of empathy… abounding where money is more important than anything else…

  9. greywarshark 9
    22 October 2018 at 2:59 pm

    Mental health, can we not talk about it any more at present. I think at 196 comments we could think about something else that we need to check out. Much has been said and the topic is well covered for the moment, along with JLR and his brand of toothpaste. /sarc

    How about Auckland transport for instance on the Light Rail post. There are a few new comments and it would be good to get some more opinion and input.

  10. Incognito 10
    22 October 2018 at 3:43 pm

    Please correct me if wrong.

    The National Party, the MSM, the NZ Police, health practitioners and security services [??, plural] are all conspiring to get Mr Ross locked up in isolation in a mental asylum, drugged up & sedated, to take his phone, and search & destroy all potentially incriminating evidence against the National Party and its wealthy influential backers?

    • chris73 10.1
      22 October 2018 at 3:52 pm

      You missed: for the rest of his natural life

      It sounds completely legit

    • Dennis Frank 10.2
      22 October 2018 at 3:54 pm

      Be very careful with that. The downside of connecting all those dots is that you could end up with a conspiracy theory. Very bad for one’s mental health!

      Looking on the bright side of life, it’s just a theory, and speculation is what people do to generate culture, so you’re enriching our cultural life in Aotearoa via such creative theorising, and writing creative theories down is a traditional pastime in western society going back centuries. So you just need to connect the past to the future via present circumstances to demonstrate that the theory can be applied for the purpose of prediction. Way to go yet…

      • Incognito 10.2.1
        22 October 2018 at 4:33 pm

        The only (!) dots I’m connecting are the ones that I’ve been reading here on TS. Some commenters here are whipping each other into a conspiracy frenzy further fuelled by latent paranoia against anything that has a whiff of being Right. Have you noticed that when you try to question anything they bear their teeth and go into full feral attack mode? And when you openly disagree with anything they proclaim they want to exorcize you as if you’re a Demonic Spirit. Sadly, it seems that NZ is slowly getting ready for extremism to take hold, the signs are getting stronger …

        This is way beyond innocent speculation to shape culture; it’s dangerous because a clever manipulator will seize the opportunity to take it further, one step at the time …

        I don’t see any bright side of this at all, none whatsoever! It is no longer grounded in reality but in the misty stuff of dreams & nightmares, where hope and fear are eternally interlocked and love & faith have been lost. BTW, this is not theory, it is an observation. So much for kindness and compassion 🙁

        • Dennis Frank 10.2.1.1
          22 October 2018 at 5:35 pm

          Ah. Taking it all that seriously is unwise, even if understandable! Human nature gets this way in crowd situations. Disengage, put yourself in tactical retreat. Do something completely different for a while. Meditate, if that is part of your lifestyle. Re-enter the fray again later when you are centered again within.

          Vv & I discussed this a little earlier, may have been on the other thread. What works for me is a little gardening or house work or reading a book, or a walk in nature, interspersed amongst bouts of online activity. Kia kaha!

          • greywarshark 10.2.1.1.1
            22 October 2018 at 5:57 pm

            I think reading about Dr Walker’s thoughts would help fighters for a better NZ. He dismissed armed revolution, it wasn’t needed. But obviously he pressed the Maori case which he understood completely. And he disagreed with other Maori leaders quite often. But they all kept on, and he and they have brought about the present which has room for movement to better, not limited by using the violence card, or giving in too easily though reasoned retreat from full reparation wishes has been conceded.

            Dr Ranginui Walker recognised what Maori needed to withstand in his book
            Ka Whawhai Tonu Matou: Struggle Without End.
            https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/77521996/Obituary-Ranginui-Walker-powerful-advocate-for-Maori-1932-2016

            From a piece about him – memories of Moana Manpoto 5/3/2016
            https://e-tangata.co.nz/reflections/ranginui-walker-no-beating-about-the-bush-with-him/
            It wasn’t just Pākehā who tossed around the term “Māori radical”, either. After all, Ranginui made many Māori squirm. It’s uncomfortable when one of our own rocks the boat. Even though we know that boat isn’t going in our direction and that someone else is steering it, we like our fellow paddlers and we convince ourselves that things could be worse. Ranginui Walker reminded everyone that Māori are quite capable of being — and should be — captains of our own waka….

            It wasn’t plain sailing — and I’m not talking about the battle with Pākehā. I’m talking about those council meetings. While there was usually agreement on an issue, there could be fiery disagreements on the tactics. Titewhai would often suggest an approach and demand support in her usual bolshie way. Bob would present the tikanga aspects of any issue or course of action. Ranginui would offer up a clear, logical rationale to any scenario.

            And, although many Pākehā saw him as a radical, in Māori settings, he was sometimes viewed as the moderate or even the conservative voice. It depended on the occasion and what other voices were being heard.

          • Incognito 10.2.1.1.2
            22 October 2018 at 10:06 pm

            I sometimes despair, I really do …

            Good advice, BTW.

        • SPC 10.2.1.2
          22 October 2018 at 6:20 pm

          Whipped into a frenzy?

          In the absence of information about the process (still lacking) – a person sectioned against their will in these circumstances does raise questions as to motive. And given that side of it, the absence of information is all the more inexplicable. There are reasons why the Speaker is involved in these instances.

          There were also of course the hysterical comments by those “who know about these matters”, that those raising questions about the matter were the people responsible for the deaths of fellow New Zealanders.

        • Muttonbird 10.2.1.3
          22 October 2018 at 6:57 pm

          This is obviously a reference to myself and a few other concern commenters.

          I admit I was streaming mad last night because of the shock of this unprecedented event.

          I simply would not put anything past a National Party which has been backed into a corner like a feral cat.

          Not whipping anybody into a frenzy, just getting thoughts down on the digital medium. I did lash out at a couple of people who told me I don’t know shit. Big whoops!

          You claim the episode is shrouded in mystery and I’m asking for information so that that fog is cleared and I get called a panty-sniffer for my troubles.

          The National Party has repeatedly shown that kindness and compassion are completely foreign concepts to them and they are getting away with it as they have done for many years.

          Someone has to ask the questions…

          • McFlock 10.2.1.3.1
            22 October 2018 at 7:17 pm

            I called you a panty-sniffer, because you were demanding information none of us have any right to expect. Prurient interest disguised as concern for democracy.

            If he’s been committed involuntarily, Mallard needs to be informed. And meet with him. So now it’s whoever called the cops, the cops themselves, the health professionals, and Mallard all trying to protect Bridges? All because you don’t have access to JLR’s health records.

            • Muttonbird 10.2.1.3.1.1
              22 October 2018 at 7:26 pm

              Do you have trouble with comprehension or something? My only concern is for democracy. I couldn’t give a toss about Ross and his family.

              I said there’s a possibility Ross’ family have been leaned on. The stakes are high. The police respond as is their remit and nowhere have I said they are ‘in on it’. Same goes for the health professionals.

              And haven’t you been reading the media today? They are saying the Speaker needs to be informed as soon as possible if and MP is subject to a compulsory mental health treatment order.

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/108020013/what-will-happen-to-jamilee-ross-seat-in-parliament-after-his-hospitalisation

              This hasn’t happened which suggests there is not compulsory mental health treatment order. What is it then? We don’t know. I want to find out while you are quite happy not to.

              Perhaps it’s a case of yourself being too comfortable in your life. There are a few other commenters and authors here who fit that scenario.

              • McFlock …
                22 October 2018 at 7:47 pm

                Exactly. You don’t give a toss about Ross or his family.

                If he’s voluntarily admitted, then when he gets out he’ll say.
                If he’s committed legitimately, he’ll get the treatment he needs, and Mallard will kick a stink about not being informed immediately.
                If he’s been fitted up by tory cops, medical professionals, and so on, then Mallard and ISTR the Surgeon General will make their own assessment, complaints will be made to various authorities, and people will be held to account.

                You will have no input into any of that. The public will know the outcome, however.

                • Muttonbird …
                  22 October 2018 at 8:40 pm

                  I’ll amend that. I do feel for Jami Lee Ross’ kids. They’ll hardly know what is going on and didn’t ask for any of it. Aside from the public angle these two will be going through a marriage break up the same as tens of thousands of children every single day. These guys though come from a wealthy family though and will likely bounce back. Other children aren’t so lucky.

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  22 October 2018 at 9:03 pm

                  “and people will be held to account” – we can only hope.

                  That’s literally all ‘we’ can do now. And, when the stakes are (apparently) high, that’s unsettling, and so we chatter, blog, ‘panty-sniff’ (to use your particularly effective pejorative) etc., to help order our thoughts, process and cope with events that may not affect us directly but are unsettling nonetheless.

                  https://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/nz-politics-daily-unaccountability-elites

                  Maybe you’re right – just like the teapot tapes, a storm in a teacup.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_scandals_in_New_Zealand

                  October [2018]: After a two-month investigation into leaks of information relating to the expenses of National Party leader Simon Bridges, Bridges announced that former Minister of Customs Jami-Lee Ross was the source of the leaks. The following day Ross alleged during a live press conference that Bridges was a corrupt politician who had violated electoral law several times, including accepting an illegal NZ$100,000 donation from Chinese businessman Zhang Yikun. The National Party caucus voted to expel Ross for disloyalty. Ross released an audio recording between himself and Bridges on Facebook. Notably, it included Bridges describing National List MP Maureen Pugh as “fucking useless”. On 18 October, a news report was released, with four women accusing Ross of incoherent rages, sexual harassment, and bullying behaviour.

                  • McFlock …
                    22 October 2018 at 9:45 pm

                    Funny thing about high-stakes situations – often the only thing one can do is wait, and see how it turns out, and then act on solid information if necessary.

                    Chatting is one thing. But we also need to differentiate between facts we can verify, things we have a right to know, and sweet nothings that will titillate and placate the easily satisfied and be regarded as a fabrication by those with the inclination.

                    • Incognito …
                      22 October 2018 at 10:38 pm

                      Very well said, thank you.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      22 October 2018 at 11:16 pm

                      Sometimes (“often”) waiting may be the only productive (in a narrow sense) course of action, but it’s (rightly) difficult to suspend (even uninformed/pointless) speculation in a forum such as The Standard, which exists (at least in part) for the exchange of opinions and ideas.

                      Don’t see too much wrong with posting speculative comments (within the bounds of good taste and moderator patience) – wasted effort maybe, but no worse than attempting a crossword. [Now you’ve done it!] A blog restricted to commenting on verified facts and things we (believe we?) have a right to know might lack flavour.

                      “But we also need to differentiate between facts we can verify, things we have a right to know, and sweet nothings that will titillate and placate the easily satisfied and be regarded as a fabrication by those with the inclination.”

                      Clear set of (differentiating) lines you’re drawing – occasionally a serendipitous “sweet nothing” turns out to be hitherto unrecognised ‘I told you so’ fact. It’s seldom the most efficient way to progress understanding, but it can nevertheless be both satisfying and productive.

                      “The four stages of acceptance:
                      1. This is worthless nonsense.
                      2. This is an interesting, but perverse, point of view.
                      3. This is true, but quite unimportant.
                      4. I always said so.”

                      – J.B.S. Haldane

                    • McFlock …
                      23 October 2018 at 12:05 am

                      I reckon that there’s a line between harmless speculation about party machinations or general political/geopolitical issues, and rampantly speculating about someoen’s health and demanding to see their medical records immediately (rather than in due process, where such an invasion of privacy is warranted).

                      Mental health or physical health. Beyond “are they fit to do the job”, answered in broad brushes according to stipulated procedure, we don’t have a right to know a damned thing about someone else’s health. And speculating about it is basically akin to treating someone’s hardships as one’s personal soap opera.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      23 October 2018 at 12:46 am

                      OK, rampant speculation about someone’s mental health is potentially harmful, so by all means curtail such speculation on The Standard for that reason. [Don’t envy the mods!] Won’t stop people speculating, but it will send a message that it’s not OK on this site.

                      Not all of the vast number of NZers with mental health conditions are fragile individuals. Some I know are talented, intelligent to the point of genius, empathetic and highly resilient – they’ve taught me valuable life skills.

                      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11910055

                      “It’s verging on impossible to cover in a responsible way.”

                      Maybe the public doesn’t have the right to know about a political leader’s mental health, but it would be reassuring to know that it’s being monitored, for everyone’s sake.

                      https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/psychiatrists-call-for-rollback-of-policy-banning-discussion-of-public-figures-mental-health/

                      https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/07/31/professionals-scrutinize-trumps-mental-health-talker/871193002/

                • RedLogix …
                  22 October 2018 at 9:03 pm

                  and Mallard will kick a stink about not being informed immediately.

                  So has he?

                  I’m not interested in the prurient details (and I can stand firmly on my record here in saying that) … but I think what Muttonbird is saying is that she does want to know that the process going on here is legit.

                  And waiting a few weeks for any evidence to be destroyed is WAY too late.

                  • McFlock …
                    22 October 2018 at 9:35 pm

                    As of this afternoon, apparently Mallard knows as much as the rest of us.

                    But I very much doubt he will be complicit in allowing any shenanigans.

                  • Incognito …
                    22 October 2018 at 10:50 pm

                    Sure, we must be assured that everything is above board but jumping up & down here or pissing all over each other are not going to provide any answers any sooner, are they? What I’m saying, is that we all want to know what’s going on.

                    Some evidence has already been provided to Police by JLR when he was in Wellington. Quite possibly he has more and even more damning material and some people would love this to ‘disappear’. But who would “destroy” evidence, assuming they know what it is, on whose orders, and how would they do this? Surely, the Government is not in on the ‘act’ as well??

                    If Simon Bridges hadn’t acted like a bull in a China shop ([pun intentional], because the Leaker dared to challenge the National bulwark of party unity and discipline, I suspect many things of last week would not have happened.

          • Incognito 10.2.1.3.2
            22 October 2018 at 10:34 pm

            Fair points, Muttonbird.

            Indeed, questions must be asked but over and over again? We’re all shocked and in dire need of facts & information and suspicions have been raised; I guess our patience will be tested till next week and hopefully no longer but this story is just getting weirder and weirder without all the speculation (euphemistically speaking) and innuendo.

            My rant @ 10.2.1 was also about much of the negativity here on display on TS over the last few weeks, even before the JLR saga broke. Maybe it’s Daylight Saving or a change of the weather but some commenters here have been behaving less than exemplary in their responses to others. This is also one reason why some women sometimes don’t feel welcome here; Bill threw out a suggestion for feedback (see link below) but the response was underwhelming. Just saying.

            https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-15-10-2018/#comment-1535764

    • Gabby 10.3
      22 October 2018 at 4:53 pm

      I’m sure Wiwoss has made sure copies of anything juicy have been sent on to others. He wouldn’t be silly enough to keep just the originals surely.

      • Ffloyd 10.3.1
        22 October 2018 at 7:05 pm

        That’s what I’ve been thinking Gabby. Especially if he is being advised by Lusk and Slater.

    • Muttonbird 10.4
      22 October 2018 at 6:45 pm

      No. It’s that people with certain interests perhaps have put pressure on Ross’ family, who are themselves under a lot of stress, to ask for Ross to be out away for a certain length of time, ‘for his own safety’.

      The rest is just the machine being put in motion after that call.

      It is remarkably convenient for the National Party to have Ross forcibly silent going into next week, isn’t it?

      • Incognito 10.4.1
        22 October 2018 at 10:56 pm

        Too risky IMO. There would be a document requesting “for Ross to be out away for a certain length of time, ‘for his own safety’.” and if this can somehow be traced back to the National Party it would spectacularly backfire in their face.

  11. R.P Mcmurphy 11
    22 October 2018 at 4:50 pm

    which wide junior jimmy olsen from tv1 tracked down Trev today to ask whether he had heard the news about JLR?

    • Muttonbird 11.1
      22 October 2018 at 6:48 pm

      That’s another weird one. The Speaker is to be informed immediately if an MP has been detained under the mental health act.

      So far nothing which suggests there’s nothing official about what happened in Sunday morning.

  12. Rosemary McDonald 12
    22 October 2018 at 6:49 pm

    Talking about transparency, here’s an interesting article I missed from stuff highlighting the massive…and I mean massive….fall in the number of public coroner’s inquests.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/107952313/massive-fall-in-coroners-inquests-sparks-fears-of-coverups

    “A Coronial Services spokesperson noted the 2016 Coroners Amendment Act removed the need for mandatory inquests for people who died in official custody, even if it was due to natural causes. However, commentary around the law change suggested it would reduce inquest numbers by only about 10 a year.”

  13. Ffloyd 13
    22 October 2018 at 7:16 pm

    Paula Bennett deserves to be run out of Parliament. Nobody should call her *the Honourable*. She is a callous, vindictive scheming affront to all womanhood. She must have had something on Key to attain the position she has. A little bit of blackmail maybe. It is very hypocritical of her to make personal and private attacks on Jami Lee when she herself had her lawyer publish a threat of legal punishment to anyone who published online any private and personal recollections they had of her in her misbegotten youth. Double standards. She seriously needs to go. *rolls eyes*

  14. JohnSelway 14
    22 October 2018 at 9:34 pm

    All you assholes (with a special mention to Muttonbird and Dukeofurl) who are talking smack about some National party involvement, making claims about how police would never attend such a thing (even though everything says the will and frequently do), who claim that his phone is being wiped, Ross has been put away because he knew too much, all those who claim it “is in the public interest” to have the details divulged about his personal medical situation and specifically anyone he says anything about how someone doesn’t go from competent to being sectioned overnight (displaying a total ignorance of mental health) should read the statement from the Mental Health Foundation and feel ashamed. It’s people like you who make it difficult for people suffering mental health problems.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/108024409/mental-health-foundation-warns-to-not-weaponise-jamilee-ross-distress

  15. Ed 15
    22 October 2018 at 10:12 pm

    On Friday Ross said he had dirt on Key.
    I recommend the police investigate him for corruption and dodgy donations.

    • Naki man 15.1
      22 October 2018 at 11:06 pm

      Good idea Ed, why don’t you see them in the morning, then let us know how it works out.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 15.2
      22 October 2018 at 11:55 pm

      Alas, the very wealthy former PM Sir John Key will never be held accountable for his actions. Just the way we roll here in corruption-free NZ – must maintain that veneer (much like ‘Clean Green” and “100% Pure” NZ.)

      As Conor English commented a few minutes ago on TV3’s ‘The Nation’, the public (that’s you and me, folks) is ready to move on from the JLR-Bridges-National party affair.

  16. WeTheBleeple 16
    23 October 2018 at 7:12 am

    Fuck Conor English and his opinion. He doesn’t represent me in any manner I’ve never heard of the condescending prick.

    We want the truth, not another fucking journos opinion.

  17. Eco Maori 17
    23 October 2018 at 7:48 am

    Kia ora The AM Show is Duncan getting a tan Ka pai Ryan . I know that the home grown only model of weed reforms will be the best for the people. But I know what makes the cogs go around and that’s money so the law has to be made to work with it commercial sales it would be a big export earner.
    Anyone driving anything should be payed at least $22 a hour the councils are still in low pay mode for common people. Bus driving is a hi skill job you have to put up with the public on a bus and all the bad drivers on our roads .
    I say that retirees should be payed a decent retirement. We should treat the retirement bill as a investment into the economy in the future and not a cost on society as the money goes through all the cogs and flows into the crowns coffers Know.
    I do support increasing the time one spend,s in NZ before they get payed NZ retirement 20 years seem a bit hard 15 years would be better as people could be pushed into hard ship with the 20 years bill a xtra 5 years is going to save money.
    With the Ross saga how low could national go one has to be careful what moves you play as the moves could be used against you from people with no morel. I Back Internet polls the old land line model well not many have landlines now days.
    trump puppet is going to be on the show and I will be dropping off my mokos at school so I will have my say trump only likes yes people around him he doesn’t like people telling him that his moves will hurt people and what do you know he has thousands of people maching against him you will lose big time in 2 weeks.
    You see trump just trashes reporters and that has consequences
    scott brown Ana to kai. Ka kite ano

  18. Eco Maori 18
    23 October 2018 at 11:13 am

    Rodger from The Rock radio station.
    How’s it going E hoa I heard you had a problem with your mower and you are in hospital fingers crossed your will be OK.
    I had a issue with a hospital a doctor he started giving a lecture on smoking I told him that there should have been warning about smoking 30 years ago he said there was I told him we can agree to disagree on that topic because I know big businesses control the world.
    I don’t take kindly to people trying to justify there minupulated system ECO MAORI know exactly how it all works.
    Ka kite ano. P.S I have refrained from using ECO MAORI sign language Rogers

  19. Eco Maori 19
    23 October 2018 at 12:25 pm

    A capital gains tax or a revamp of our tax structure is a good thing.
    I see the business capitalist are up to their sneaky ways again.
    This person starts out say she not rich this move is trying to justify the story but sorry NO.
    The people who own property of any kind have been served extremely well buy shonky,s business m8 first model of running the government he lower the top tax rate he included them in family support he sold 49 % of our best state assets.
    Mean while we have people dieing in the street hospital run down school run down rural communities with high unemployment.
    You mite have worked and saved and brought a business you get to claim part of your rent travel expenses a % of all your costs claim against your tax bill.
    I would bet that you did not pay as much
    Tax as a PAYE worker I know how bussness work.
    Link below Ka kite ano.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/opinion/107911188/capital-gains-tax-punishes-hard-work

  20. Eco Maori 20
    23 October 2018 at 7:58 pm

    I have been a bit busy chasing the mokos around it sure use up ones time no time to write my usual post Kia kaha
    Some ECO Maori music for the minute

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J161D6GuJ8c

  21. Eco Maori 21
    24 October 2018 at 7:43 am

    Kia ora The AM Show migration are exploited in Aotearoa the bad effects of this is the are displaceing the local population I say that everyone should have access to the labour employment officer. If a person steals food he’d be arrested and charged a employer can steal. Millions and nothing happens there should be instant big fine for these thieves $250k.
    I will bet that it there was a study done the money stolen by employer would be x 10 of goods stolen that’s the system.
    Those old boats be found in the red sea will reveal a lot of history.
    Cyclets should be certious and not ride 2 side by side everyone has a right to our roads and road rage in not justerfied no one should behave like that.
    I never were lycia stretchy pants.
    simon the fuel tax should have introduced 9 years a go.
    trump will kiss anyone ass to keep in power and he needs ted crus to keep power but know Beto O,Rourke will win.
    Ka kite ano P.S Ryan’s cool

  22. Eco Maori 22
    24 October 2018 at 8:34 am

    Kia ora Rock Rumble radio station is it a coincidence that ECO MAORI hales out to Rodger to support him next minute no phone going at the station I think not.
    The sandflys are trying everyday to use any move to entrap ECO MAORI but know they are wasting heaps of time an money on this. I know who the people are that they are using I will never forget what they have done and in the end they will pay for there dirty deeds. Ka kite ano

  23. Eco Maori 23
    24 October 2018 at 9:03 am

    Some ECO MAORI music for the minute

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J161D6GuJ8c

  24. Eco Maori 24
    24 October 2018 at 12:15 pm

    Just because The late Stephen Hawking could not figure out that there is a God or a after life does not mean either are not true.
    ECO MAORI Says he will have changed his views now.
    I believe in God and the afterlife all our tipuna are watching some make fools of themselves and because of there GREED we are stuffing and trashing the gifts we have been given Papatuanukue and her creations.
    Just because there is a God doesn’t mean that our stuff ups will be fixed one gets gifts and tuff if you stuff it up.
    This is the reason I good hard on the money people who deceive the poor people who believed that human caused Global Warming is not going to end in a desaster for the poor.
    Link below Ka kite ano. P.S the Equaliser effect
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/oct/19/brief-answers-to-the-big-questions-stephen-hawking-review

  25. eco maori 25
    24 October 2018 at 3:14 pm

    Here you go some wealthy bankers telling lies because there banker friendly national m8 are warming the back benchers .
    They want to dent our tourist numbers scare everyone away from Aotearoa /New Zealand Lloyd’s of London the are most probably money launderers to this is so easy to see link below Ka kite ano P.S Second for natural disasters some countries don’t make the list when we have seen huge fires hurricanes causing billions in damage .
    Pull the other leg.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/108064804/lloyds-report-ranks-new-zealand-second-for-natural-disaster-costs

  26. eco maori 26
    24 October 2018 at 3:48 pm

    This will be a great movie to see of Queen’s Bohemian rhapsody they say it does not get into his personal life who cares It honour one of the greatest singers of our time.
    Ka kite ano

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/oct/23/bohemian-rhapsody-review-freddie-mercury-biopic-bites-the-dust

  27. eco maori 27
    24 October 2018 at 5:03 pm

    Angela Merkel is making all the correct moves Saudi banning arms sales to them and I say the rest of the world should follow suite .We need to protect the worlds free speech
    as free speech is one of the only tools we have to hold the unscrupulous people to account to many good reporters are ending up in harms way Ka pai Angela.
    Ka kite ano

    https://www.euronews.com/2018/10/22/raw-politics-should-the-eu-follow-merkel-and-cut-trade-with-saudi?utm_campaign=minutely_article&utm_medium=fscom&utm_source=top_videos

  28. eco maori 28
    24 October 2018 at 5:27 pm

    Here you go a truly brilliant person Elon Mus tunnel transport system under
    Los Angeles its a new transport system for the World Ka pai E hau.
    Link below ka kite an

    https://www.euronews.com/2018/10/23/elon-musk-says-his-first-tunnel-will-open-december-n922726

  29. eco maori 29
    24 October 2018 at 6:40 pm

    Kia ora Newshub simple simon spinning again .
    Yes its good that steel and tube has been fined for selling shoddy steel that does not pass the earth Quake strength test.
    Thats a shocking way to treat someone AHS Hospitality treating migrants like dirt and ripping them off of a fair pay.
    Melisa the Fijians adore the Prince Harry and the Duchess
    The Fijians leasing land to the Queen for the Queens Fijian forest canopy is a great way to conserve there wild life.
    Its good that the Christchurch council is fixing all there water boars so they don’t end up with a Clive city episode.
    The Hong Kong China bridge is a massive project what takes China 9 years to build will take others 20 years it cost 20 billion I think
    If they say know ones owns water that move is going to put water in the hands of big business and Eco Maori is against that. I just want to see the quality issues fixed there is still time to sorte that ownership issues out .
    The Black sea 400 year old ships found I made a mistake this morning called it the dead sea.
    The American multi billion Lottery more money than one could spend half goes to taxes Ka kite ano