Open mike 23/02/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:07 am, February 23rd, 2014 - 250 comments
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250 comments on “Open mike 23/02/2014 ”

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  1. Pasupial 1
    23 February 2014 at 7:30 am

    This is new (or 1930s old if you want to look at it that way) for Dunedin:

    “There have been many reports of people asking strangers for money – and people begging on the footpath – in recent weeks. Rising living costs and displacement in the wake of the Canterbury earthquakes have been linked to the sometimes shocking and all-too-obvious signs of personal struggle.”

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/292394/beggars-streets-dunedin

    I’ve been asked for change at bus-stops a couple of times recently, and there’s always been the limited talent “buskers” (the kind you wouldn’t stop and listen to). The weather is fine this week, but it’s really not a town in which you want to be homeless during winter.

    • idlegus 1.1
      23 February 2014 at 7:47 am

      yeah happened to me on friday, a couple teens, i was with my 6 year old & they were quite in our faces. not good. but i guess with 20% (at least) of under 25s unemployed, this is what we should expect..

    • weka 1.2
      23 February 2014 at 9:43 am

      Afaik, everyone in NZ without cash assets, who doesn’t have enough money for groceries in a week, is entitled to financial support from WINZ. What does it say about us that people find it easier to beg from strangers on the street than strangers in the WINZ office?

      • phillip ure 1.2.1
        23 February 2014 at 9:53 am

        @ weka..

        “..everyone in NZ without cash assets, who doesn’t have enough money for groceries in a week, is entitled to financial support from WINZ…”

        ..factually incorrect there..weka…

        ..where on earth do you get this miss-information from..?

        ..how out of touch with the realities of life for so many are you..?

        ..and you a ‘green’..eh..?

        ..you’d think you’d know better..

        ..eh..?

        ..phillip ure..

        • weka 1.2.1.1
          23 February 2014 at 10:58 am

          Yeah that’s right phil, putting me down is the important thing here. But let me fix it, seeing as how logic isn’t your strong point and you would obviously rather point score and make it personal than further the conversation in a meaningful way.

          NZ residents who pass an income and asset test are entitled to Special Needs Grants from WINZ. I’m sure that you can find fault with that statement if you try.

          • idlegus 1.2.1.1.1
            23 February 2014 at 11:12 am

            if you happen to be on some kind of stand down & maybe facing other penalties or run out of your ‘special needs’ grants its possible you wont get anything. some of these beggers might even have some work, minimum hours on minimum wage, its possible for these young ppl to have to beg so they can get some spare cash.

            • weka 1.2.1.1.1.1
              23 February 2014 at 11:43 am

              True, but most of those things aren’t in statute I think, they’re gate keeping at the office, hence my point about it being easier to beg from strangers on the street than it is to approach the govt agency responsible for looking after people who are really struggling.

              • idlegus …
                23 February 2014 at 1:15 pm

                oh right, yep, exactly. who really wants to have anything to do with the govt if it can be helped.

              • Tim …
                23 February 2014 at 1:16 pm

                … so your point was that it’s easier to beg from strangers on the street than it is from WINZ? (just to clarify). I’d go along with that from those beggars I’ve had conversations with around Wellington.

                btw ….. sometimes I think you (and others), and PU should really kiss and make up. Holier than thou … and all that kaka.
                Maybe we need a Nosher Powel to mediate (“Give him back his fuckn cuntry”)

              • Ant …
                23 February 2014 at 2:12 pm

                WINZ have turned discouraging people (I mean “clients”) from accessing their entitlements into an art form.

          • phillip ure 1.2.1.1.2
            23 February 2014 at 2:38 pm

            @ weka..i fact-checked you because you used the words..’in a week’..

            ..thus implying that any week this could happen..

            ..that is not correct..

            ..if you time it right..you might get four shops a year out of them..in emergency-grants..

            ..then you are sent to the foodbanks..

            ..then you…

            ..phillip ure..

            • weka 1.2.1.1.2.1
              23 February 2014 at 3:04 pm

              Yes WINZ are gate keeping at the office, hence my comment that it’s easier to beg on the streets.

              No, I didn’t mean every week of the year. I meant that WINZ usually income and asset test for the week that you apply.

            • JK 1.2.1.1.2.2
              23 February 2014 at 5:41 pm

              Four shops a year from emergency WINZ grants – that’s if you are VERY Lucky.
              And going to the foodbanks – you’re only allowed a couple of these a year. So if you run out of food and funds at other times in the year ……. you’ve just run out of luck and food !!

      • Monty 1.2.2
        23 February 2014 at 10:00 am

        I would say the biggers with very few exceptions are obtaining a tax payer funded benefit as well. I observed a beggar on Friday for about thirty minutes. He got a. Few coins in the time I was watching. Certainly did not seem starved. Then he started a conversation on his smart phone. After that he went over and had a chat to a couple of other beggers about twenty metres away, had a smoke and then went back to his position.

        There were reports that the beggers do quite well thank you very much.

        • phillip ure 1.2.2.1
          23 February 2014 at 10:09 am

          you sound almost envious there..monty..

          ..after yr in-depth investigation of the matter..

          ..will you be submitting yr conclusions to an academic-journal..?

          ..for a peer-review..?

          ..walked a mile in their shoes..did you..

          ..you ineffably shallow/simplistic little-man..

          ..you..

          ..phillip ure..

          • Monty 1.2.2.1.1
            23 February 2014 at 10:16 am

            It was an observation, not an in depth investigation. I never have and never would walk an inch in their shoes. These people have no self respect, and are not prepared to do what is necessary to improve their lives. Beginning with making intelligent life decisions. There is no excuse for their begging.they intimidate people.

            They are best ignored.

            • Pasupial 1.2.2.1.1.1
              23 February 2014 at 11:20 am

              Monty

              I don’t personally find beggers intimidating, except in the sense of empathising with their plight. Generally I find I can spare a few coins for the downtrodden. If you do in fact ignore these people how can you be so certain of your generalisations about them (eg; “These people have no self respect, and are not prepared to do what is necessary to improve their lives”)? Street-collecting, protesting, or busking can be dispiriting enough; I don’t want to ever find out just how grinding the begging process is.

              From the ODT article above:

              “The Dunedin City Council has no bylaws addressing begging. A spokeswoman said the council had received no complaints about it.
              In some centres, Work and Income has staff specifically assigned to deal with the homeless and very poor, but not in Dunedin.”

            • SukieDamson 1.2.2.1.1.2
              23 February 2014 at 11:35 am

              And my casual observation is that you have simply sketched this tried & tested meme out of thin air.

              Now, if you are looking for a masterclass in benny bashing, look no further.

              http://t.co/BpR85fUCqe

              • weka …
                23 February 2014 at 12:09 pm

                That link!

              • greywarbler …
                23 February 2014 at 3:06 pm

                Sukie Damson
                That was a plum one you landed TS with on that there link!
                I had a close look at it and it is a send-up, a satire. And sounds as if it might be from some UK union or left-wing students mag (from when students usually had a left wing lean.)

                What do YOU think?
                We’ve whipped up our ignorant readers into a bigoted frenzy of hatred. Here’s the kind of hand outs they’d like to see dished out to the money grubbing …

                Cut his cock off and make him eat it..said disabled war veteran Joe …82, of Leeds.
                etc

                Have your neighbours got a nicer house than you? Do they appear to be better off than you are? Or perhaps their garden is a mess, or their kids have got snotty noses. Ring us today….and tell us about your nightmare neighbours. Perhaps we can arrange for a lynching……

              • Murray Olsen …
                23 February 2014 at 10:19 pm

                Looks just like a typical WhaleSpew/Kiwibog thread. BTW, I hate how Farrar has misappropriated our national bird, our symbol, the name of our league team, and part of our identity for his hate site.

            • Bearded Git 1.2.2.1.1.3
              23 February 2014 at 12:27 pm

              Read Orwell’s “Down and Out in Paris and London” Monty.

            • freedom 1.2.2.1.1.4
              23 February 2014 at 1:32 pm

              Monty, if I may be so bold, What things you must see from your lofty tower. You must feel so disappointed, so aggrieved, so challenged by the audacity of it all that these beggars have the indecency to stain your eyes with their meagre presence. You don’t ask for much. All you want is to pass along the street your taxes built and not be harangued by society’s flotsam. They are of course the only ones responsible for their circumstances and deserve every pointy stick of shame they get. Not only for being worthless street scum, but for their subsequent lack of a real contribution to what is obviously your society. They should, quite simply, not be tolerated by decent hard working penguins who only want to be exposed to osh-approved representations of society as dictated by the latest fearfacts poll . (I could go on but it would just get kind of mean and I think the sarcasm would be tedious after the first thirty odd pages)

              Absolutely there are scammers out there on the street. Lots of them. Devious sods each and every one. Dedicated, they chip away at it day after day. Working hard to grift your coin from your wallet. Most of them wear suits by the way. Dispersed between the suits you will see other people, the ones you belittled so confidently. I feel I should enquire as to your validation for doing so. Have you ever spoken to the person you are accusing of failure? Have you ever asked a question of them? I imagine you are more likely one of those whom bark life directives as you pass by, choking on the guilt a bit as you cast the soiled coins from your pocket.

              Do you know of any of these people’s achievements for example?

              There are many proud histories that sit dishevelled on street corners around New Zealand. Just because many of these fellow humans are garbed in the broken shells of what they could have been, that is no reason to spew your ignorance upon them.
              I doubt you could honestly fathom the daily challenges many beggars have faced. Battling with their mental state, dumped into the machinery of hot potato bureaucracy and some of the lucky ones even survive their personal traumas of violence and sexual assault. Monty, for someone who has such obvious trouble accepting the existence of others’ difficulties, I am unconvinced your limpet-celled cerebellum could process the pressured choices that eventually led many of these people to reach out a hand in submission.

              Now, to stand in judgement on strangers for a full half hour and come to such a clear conclusion that you state “There is no excuse for their begging” means you are either an omniscient form of idiot-savant who has a razor keen understanding of humanity (and live in rarefied air), or you are just an idiot.

              yeah i’m going with you are an idiot

            • Draco T Bastard 1.2.2.1.1.5
              23 February 2014 at 1:53 pm

              Global Capitalism Has Written Off The Human Race

              The way the world is organized under a few powerful and immensely greedy private interests, the technology will do nothing for humanity.

              We are already seeing this truth today. In fact, we’ve been seeing it for several decades but we’ve been ignoring it.

              • Colonial Viper …
                23 February 2014 at 4:37 pm

                Male or female, straight, gay, trans, black, white or brown, able bodied or not; capitalism considers over 95% of the human race disposable and replaceable in exploitation for profits.

                the technology will do nothing for humanity.

                Science and technology today serves human ambitions, aspirations and greed, all of which are now capitalist in nature.

            • phillip ure 1.2.2.1.1.6
              23 February 2014 at 3:07 pm

              did you have an empathy bye-pass at birth..there..monty..?

              ..what/how else to explain yr bleak/dark heart..?

              ..eh..?

              ..phillip ure..

        • weka 1.2.2.2
          23 February 2014 at 10:19 am

          “I would say the biggers with very few exceptions are obtaining a tax payer funded benefit as well”

          So? You do realise that benefits are intentionally set below a liveable level.

          Why do you think that only people who ‘look’ starved deserve help?

          Why do you think that someone with a smart phone isn’t hungry or needing to pay a power bill before their power gets cut off?

          Why do you have a problem with people who beg socialising with each other?

        • Murray Olsen 1.2.2.3
          23 February 2014 at 10:36 pm

          You should move to Brazil, Monty. Most of the middle class think like you, and there are even more beggars to hate. You can even run them over and get away with it, or set fire to them. That teaches them not to be intimidating to good citizens.

  2. Chooky 2
    23 February 2014 at 9:07 am

    Program by Philippa Tolley on whether the NZ Public Services democratic role is being undermined this morning very good!

    …..very articulate experienced well educated professional speakers on the problems facing New Zealand’s public Service eg Foreign Affairs man Mr Leak?, Matthew Palmer? ( legal), Brenda Pilot (PSA).

    ….and Labour Party’s Maryan Street, Spokesperson for State Services …. also very competent …..talking about the problems facing Public Servants….

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday

    …..as a former Public Servant my heart goes out to Public Servants under a NACT Government …it must be hell!

    …. problems of giving free and frank advice on what is best for New Zealand versus what the government wants to hear

    ….problems of working under the threat of being made redundant

    …problems of having to carry on after your mates have been made redundant illegitimately

    …problems of working under a huge workload ( remember Cave Creek….this happened after redundancies on the West Coast and impossible work loads carried by DOC staff)

    • Bearded Git 2.1
      23 February 2014 at 12:28 pm

      Beltway issue. Labour needs policy that people can relate to to get votes.

      • Stephanie Rodgers 2.1.1
        23 February 2014 at 3:09 pm

        I don’t agree that the running down of the public service under National is a beltway issue. It just needs to be framed in terms relevant to people’s lives – hospital waiting lists, class sizes, the amount of time it takes government departments to respond or deal with issues,

        • bad12 2.1.1.1
          23 February 2014 at 3:43 pm

          There is the possibility, depending upon what occurs in the next month, of an interesting story developing surrounding ”just how” this current Government is managing those hospital waiting lists…

      • Chooky 2.1.2
        23 February 2014 at 4:40 pm

        …what does beltway mean?

        • McFlock 2.1.2.1
          23 February 2014 at 6:41 pm

          It means people watched too much West Wing

        • weka 2.1.2.2
          23 February 2014 at 6:48 pm

          Beltway…it means the political scene in Wellington. People in the beltway are in the Know. Apparently. It often gets used disparagingly here to refer to people who aren’t in touch with the rest of NZ.

          • Chooky 2.1.2.2.1
            23 February 2014 at 7:27 pm

            eerh thanx …..

            public servants are everywhere…not just in Wellington….and their health and well-being is a litmus test for democracy…they are servants of the public…the people of NZ …. and our taxpayer dollar

            ….when they start to sqwark down the tunnels and kark it in the mines you know your democracy is in trouble

    • Tim 2.2
      23 February 2014 at 2:06 pm

      Like you Chooky, as a former PS (both in the pre-corporatisation, AND post-corporatisation eras), I feel for them.
      ’87 – we were promised
      …. greater accountability
      …… de-politicisation
      ……. fishinsy n fektivness
      ……….. and a whole lot of other BS.

      In fact exactly the opposite has occured AND at greater expense if you take into account the salary largesse of ‘CEO’s’ (ffs!!!!! CEO’s in the Public Service – an anomaly in and of itself), and their ‘Senior Management’.
      Actually, the result has been highly politicised little feifdoms, open to manipulation and scams, and an environment where actual public servants work IN SPITE of their ‘entitled’ management, rather than BECAUSE of them. Ask any at the coal face what they think of their so-called management – I dare ya!!
      Be it Internal Affairs
      Be it Defence,
      Be it Te Puni Kokiri (present Hippolite excepted thus far, but we’ll wait and see)
      Be it WINZ
      Be it …. (name your poison)

      I bothers me that ‘progressives’ (including the current Labour Party leadership claiming progressive credentials) can’t see the bleeding obvious

      • Chooky 2.2.1
        23 February 2014 at 4:50 pm

        +100..Tim

        ….this will be a big issue for Wellingtonians especially .

        …and I might add ….a country is only as good as its high quality , independent Public Servants, committed to serving that country….so it is a very important political issue

        I have to say Mayan Street spoke well on the issue

  3. bad12 3
    23 February 2014 at 9:13 am

    i got six paragraphs into today’s Herald column by Matt McCarten and found i had far far better activities to occupy my Sunday morning with than allowing Matt’s views to ruin yet another day,

    According to Matt, the Alfred E. Nuemann of television reporting Patrick Gower is a ”frighteningly good journalist”,

    i can only surmise that Matt considers Himself in with a chance, along with Bryce and Kerre of getting the nod to fill John Armstrong’s position at the Herald when the latter falls asleep at His computer for the final time…

    • tc 3.1
      23 February 2014 at 10:26 am

      Matt seems to be doing a job interview for his paymasters…..looky here see how I can spin it with the best, wondered about him in an election year at pravda, wonder no more.

      Also no surprise that cammy is being positioned as some type of hard done by family man and crusader of worthy causes with bradbury thrown in for granny styled ‘balance’.

      with shonkey aligning himself with the slater its nicely framed for WO to become every bit as ‘credible’ as granny with the payback for cammy probably escalated site hits and perhaps similar taxpayer gigs like farrars curia enjoys.

      • bad12 3.1.1
        23 February 2014 at 12:19 pm

        Yeah true, i suppose if McCarten is taking the Massah Bosses coin then He is beholden to write what will keep the Massah Boss passing over that 30 pieces of silver…

      • Bearded Git 3.1.2
        23 February 2014 at 12:34 pm

        As we all know WO is a pretty revolting specimen. It is indicative of Key’s outlook on life that he can’t see this.

        My guess is that there are wavering voters who will be put off Key by his closeness to the Whale.

        Cue Labour repeating often that Key has fireside chats with the Oily One=more votes.

  4. Monty 4
    23 February 2014 at 9:49 am

    So another poll is coming out tonight. The rumours are that it is bad news for the left and good news for the right. I suspect it will have a bit of a slump for the greens and Labour with National who have run a tight ship this. Year possibly able to rule alone, or maybe with the help of act and Dunne.

    Som what will a bad result mean for the left? Has Cunliffe finished the honeymoon only after six months, while John Key’s honeymoon continues six years into the Job.

    If the poll results are bad will labour be capable of taking a hard look at their policy platform and realise that
    A. The population generally do understand that National is doing a good job and the gains are not to be risked by a lurch to the left such as a green labour government would deliver
    B. The left policies of more welfare in one form or another are not capturing the imagination of the public.
    C. More taxes are not going to win any election. The promise of increased taxes has failed the last two elections, why do labour think it will work a third time. Isn’t it time the left dropped their hatred of success?

    • mickysavage 4.1
      23 February 2014 at 10:14 am

      Hmmm Monty is pontificating on something and assuming the worst for Labour and then offering the benefit of his sage advice. What happens Monty if the poll shows increased support? I hear the internal polling is sound.

    • millsy 4.2
      23 February 2014 at 10:18 am

      In the 1990’s National cut taxes by closing hundreds of hospitals around the country and cutting other services that help New Zealand.

      FACT: you can only cut taxes by cutting services. Raising taxes to pay for services that help New Zealanders is the only way forward in this country.

      • Monty 4.2.1
        23 February 2014 at 10:28 am

        That is not a fact Millay.

        What is a fact is that throwing money at a problem does not necessarily resolve it.

      • tc 4.2.2
        23 February 2014 at 10:41 am

        +1
        Aus has a very large tax regime with the top personal rate nearly 50%, CGT, FBT, GST, Superannuation tax and thats before we look at state taxes like stamp duty those are federal taxes.

        Those roads, schools, hospitals etc are paid for with taxes, rwnjs appear to be wilfully ignorant on the massive borrowing the nact perform to stop serious cracks appearing everywhere while they are in power.

        if we pulled the tablecloths of cafe nacts tables now, you would see books, bricks, bodies propping up the legs theyve sawn off.

      • RedBaronCV 4.2.3
        23 February 2014 at 11:03 am

        Or realigning what you do with the taxes.

        There has been a lot of bleating from the right about the living wage and they have very helpfully supplied figures to bolster their argument as to how much WFF will go down. Mostly in the billions.
        So if we can get the bottom end wages up, with a knock on effect up the scale through to the median ( and hopefully decrease the profit amounts going off shore) then we will have plenty more to spend on community needs. Bit like ditching the holiday highway and spending money on a few passing lanes and public transport.

      • Rob 4.2.4
        23 February 2014 at 9:20 pm

        “hundreds of hospitals”, hundreds????

        • millsy 4.2.4.1
          26 February 2014 at 6:51 pm

          I am in possession of a document obtained under the Offical Information Act that I can provide a link to if you like.

    • Sosoo 4.3
      23 February 2014 at 12:18 pm

      Isn’t it time the left dropped their hatred of success?

      The polls show that National is winning because it’s getting votes from the old – the same people who lived it up riotously on the generous postwar welfare state and who want to deny the same to the under 40s.

      It really doesn’t have anything to do with what you say other than that the boomers are a worthless load of spongers.

    • bad12 4.4
      23 February 2014 at 1:19 pm

      RockBottom Economy,

      Deficit = 1.79 billion dollars, now that’s what i call book balancing,

      Gross Government Debt = 80+ billion dollars, when it hits 100 billion bucks the automatic invitation for the IMF to move in and loot the place on behalf of the creditors becomes active???,

      Business Tax Evasion/Avoidance $179 million dollars in six months, s’pose Bill can always plug the hole with the loot from asset sales in the name of surplus at any cost,

      The RockBottom Economy brought to you by Nationals stunning economic mismanagement circa 2008–2014…

    • amirite 4.5
      23 February 2014 at 2:54 pm

      $1.8 billion crown deficit, $82.95 billion gross government debt and rising.
      Good job indeed. Maybe in a parallel, upside-down universe.

      • bad12 4.5.1
        23 February 2014 at 3:50 pm

        Truly a Rock-Bottom Economy and Slippery the PM has no plans on altering anything if given a third term…

  5. Monty 5
    23 February 2014 at 10:25 am

    I have always though that this election will be close. But recent polls have given the green labour bloc extreme cause for concern, with good reason given the nightmare of the past couple of weeks for the left to think the trend would have changed.

    The labour and green policies to date have had no impact and have been easily dissected by us on the right ( with much joy I might add)

    Nothing the green labour bloc has done has managed to impact on the ongoing strong and unprecedented support national continues to enjoy.

    at this rate Winston will not be of benefit to the green labour bloc in forming a government. Besides I doubt he will go with David and Russel for the simple reason that his ego will not want him to play third fiddle.

    I wonder if the recent grumpiness of labour MPs is related to on going poor polling.

    • srylands 5.1
      23 February 2014 at 10:39 am

      Voters will vote for some more redistribution. There is widespread concern at persistent inequality. But they will not vote for policies that make New Zealand poorer.

      As an example – The recent solar panel policy is such an example. It uses the Government (and its ability to tax and borrow) to promote an expensive generation mode over existing cheaper ones. It dishonestly portrays solar as cheaper by claiming that the interest subsidy is not really a subsidy, and by downplaying the ownership risks. If someone had a spare $15,000 and they did want to spend that on energy efficiency they would be well advised to spend it on top notch insulation, double glazing, installing a reverse cycle air hot water system and an efficient gas central heating system or a heat pump. These are proven technologies that also will add to capital value.

      • Monty 5.1.1
        23 February 2014 at 11:02 am

        There is concern at inequality of opportunity. I am not at all convinced there is huge amounts at the level of concern around inequality of outcome.

        The outcome is dependant upon so many factors such as ambition, priorities, life decisions, risks taken and outcome of those risks.

        labour and the greens keep harping on about needing equality of outcomes. That is effectively socialism and means those who work hard, invest, make good decisions are penalised and their money taken to redistribute to those who make poor life decisions, don’t necessarily have the skills to make money.

        It is a very dangerous road to go down.,

        • RedLogix 5.1.1.1
          23 February 2014 at 11:18 am

          Only if you measure the entire value of a human being by how many “skills to make money” they have Monty.

          labour and the greens keep harping on about needing equality of outcomes.

          Except nobody does. No-one is arguing for equality of outcomes. What we are pointing out is that in a world where just 85 people now control more wealth than the poorest 3.5 BILLION people on the planet – that there is plenty of room to reduce this gross extreme of wealth and poverty.

        • mikesh 5.1.1.2
          23 February 2014 at 1:20 pm

          “labour and the greens keep harping on about needing equality of outcomes. That is effectively socialism and means those who work hard, invest, make good decisions are penalised and their money taken to redistribute to those who make poor life decisions, don’t necessarily have the skills to make money.”

          Whilst I have no objection to taxing hard work only lightly, much of the higher incomes that we see are coming from economic rent and ticket clipping, and this should be providing the lion’s share of the tax take.

          • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.2.1
            23 February 2014 at 2:05 pm

            +1

            The biggest bludgers are the shareholders.

            • mikesh 5.1.1.2.1.1
              23 February 2014 at 3:55 pm

              “The biggest bludgers are the shareholders.”

              Sometimes. Though their income comes from the ownership of assets which contribute to the productive process, and they stand to lose their investment if the enterprise fails.

              I was thinking more of interest recipients, who contribute nothing to the productive process, landlords, in respect of land, and administrators who are often grossly overpaid for what they actually contribute

              • Draco T Bastard …
                23 February 2014 at 4:03 pm

                Though their income comes from the ownership of assets which contribute to the productive process,

                But they themselves don’t.

                I was thinking more of interest recipients, who contribute nothing to the productive process,

                Interest recipients are just indirect shareholders.

                and administrators who are often grossly overpaid for what they actually contribute

                Within a business administrators are an expense on the workers and so the workers should have a say how much that they’re paid.

                Landlords should be administrators hired by the government on a fixed income to administer state rental properties. There should be no private rentals.

                • mikesh …
                  23 February 2014 at 4:53 pm

                  “Interest recipients are just indirect shareholders.”

                  Shareholders own assets – machines, tools, etc – which contribute to production, and which get used up through depreciation. Interest recipients hold promissory notes, or something similar, which contribute nothing.

                  “Within a business administrators are an expense on the workers and so the workers should have a say how much that they’re paid.’

                  They should be paid a fair price for the service they provide.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    23 February 2014 at 4:58 pm

                    Shareholders own assets – machines, tools, etc – which contribute to production, and which get used up through depreciation.

                    Don’t kid yourself. The shareholders only “own” that hardware through legal fictions.

                    In the most common reality, the banks effectively own all that stuff. You can see this when a factory folds: the banks get all the money from the fire sale of those items, and the employees and shareholders get nothing.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    23 February 2014 at 5:05 pm

                    Shareholders own assets – machines, tools, etc – which contribute to production, and which get used up through depreciation. Interest recipients hold promissory notes, or something similar, which contribute nothing.

                    Ownership of a machine doesn’t contribute to production.

                    They should be paid a fair price for the service they provide.

                    I didn’t say that they shouldn’t. It was more a statement that they shouldn’t set their wages.

                    • mikesh …
                      23 February 2014 at 6:17 pm

                      “Ownership of a machine doesn’t contribute to production.”

                      This is just playing with words. The machine itself contributes to production.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      24 February 2014 at 2:29 am

                      No, it’s not playing with words. The ownership of the machine doesn’t contribute to production.

                  • phillip ure …
                    23 February 2014 at 5:22 pm

                    are they those same shareholding-elites who are part of the $5 billion in criminally-avoided tax in nz..?

                    ..(and as a benchmark at the other end..benefit-fraud in the last measured year was $23 million..)

                    ..there is yr funding to end poverty..

                    ..right there..

                    ..that..and a financial transaction tax on the inter-institution trading of banks/finance-companies etc..

                    ..and we will have poverty done and dusted..

                    ..and we will even have enough to start cleaning up the mess we have made of this place..

                    ..just those two measures will be enough..

                    ..tell that to those who wring their hands..

                    ..and claim there is nothing we can do..

                    ..to end this poverty-blight..

                    ..and to clean up our country..

                    ..phillip ure..

      • RedBaronCV 5.1.2
        23 February 2014 at 11:15 am

        Or even better you put up the panels, for the joy of shafting the power companies, and then with the reduction in the monthly bills, do all those other things so that the house is a net supplier. Maybe one would be allowed to donate the power to certain community facilites like schools or hospitals or towards the bill of an older or younger relative.

      • RedLogix 5.1.3
        23 February 2014 at 11:53 am

        The recent solar panel policy is such an example. It uses the Government (and its ability to tax and borrow) to promote an expensive generation mode over existing cheaper ones. It dishonestly portrays solar as cheaper by claiming that the interest subsidy is not really a subsidy, and by downplaying the ownership risks.

        When governments first started building sealed highways they were effectively subsidising a dearer mode of transport (cars) over an existing cheaper and more reliable one (horses).

      • bad12 5.1.4
        23 February 2014 at 12:52 pm

        SSLands i can nearly hear you sobbing from here at the Green Party having the temerity to cut out the profit making trading banks from the solar power equation, there is no ”interest subsidy” as you latest lie attempts to infer,

        Those taking up the offer will be able to borrow up to $15,000 off of the Government and pay the same amount of interest the Government is charged to borrow the money on behalf of those borrowing to install solar,

        You will probably be depressed to the point of self harm once the first low income families are housed under the Green Parties home ownership initiative where it will be up to the home owners how much of the mortgage they pay down on these Government housing loans which again cut out the profit making trading banks…

        • bad12 5.1.4.1
          23 February 2014 at 5:21 pm

          As an after-thought to your latest of whines formulated upon lies SSLands, you have to remember that the Government will be buying any spare generation off of those who choose to cleverly take up the Green Party initiative which lends the money to those wishing to install a solar energy system,

          i should imagine that such solar producers will be given preference over the major generators when selling power to the Government wholesaler Labour/Green intend to install between the current generators and current retailers,

          i would further imagine that the Government wholesaler will purchase that solar generation from the household generators at the fair price paid to the large generators which they will then on-sell to the retailers,

          Obviously a single desk wholesale buyer of electricity generation will be able to use market forces to squeeze the margins and make a small profit so how you think the Government will lose money on the solar power start-up transaction is in fact beyond me…

      • Draco T Bastard 5.1.5
        23 February 2014 at 2:04 pm

        It dishonestly portrays solar as cheaper by claiming that the interest subsidy is not really a subsidy, and by downplaying the ownership risks.

        The lower interest isn’t a subsidy and there are very few, if any, downside risks. It will also make many NZers richer. The only ones that will get poorer will be the ones who bought our assets, against our will, with a look to get free money.

      • phillip ure 5.1.6
        23 February 2014 at 2:27 pm

        sryland..

        ..did you ever find the evidence of yr bullshit claims yesterday..?

        ..or doesn’t that really matter..

        ..every day is just bullshit-groundhog-day for you..

        ..eh..?

        ..phillip ure..

    • unpcnzcougar 5.2
      23 February 2014 at 2:22 pm

      I have just read on Kiwiblog that Richard Prebble is returning to ACT to run their election campaign. On reading this my personal opinion is that the election is now sown up barring any major scandals.

      • emergency mike 5.2.1
        23 February 2014 at 2:42 pm

        But isn’t Prebble the RNZ go to commentator for ‘what’s going on in the Labour party’? So confusing…

  6. marty mars 6
    23 February 2014 at 10:29 am

    This “in bed with the bloggers” article is thought provoking imo. Isn’t it interesting watching the meme develop that you have to be a ‘personality’ to be a blogger with impact or influence. I’m not against personalities but surely it is the ideas – oh sorry how naive of me.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11208097

    I have to say that I am still struggling to get my head around the recent news that the prime minister rings slater up and chats – and the killer is, that is only if the lying dirty wanker is telling the truth – and he hardly ever does that! Dirty, dirty fight, dirty tactics, fight to win. Wake (further) up lefties the skirmishing is here.

    • tc 6.1
      23 February 2014 at 10:58 am

      Our PM is a well advised cold calculating banksta representing the hollowmen, time will tell why he did this.

      IMO it was to give ‘credibility’ to WO who will become an outlet for the dirt etc that him and lusk etc have as their stock in trade.

      you will not hear the end of the brown saga as one example as its all about throw as much shit as you can so more sticks to the ‘left’, its obvious with the nact cabal on akl council the scene has been set after sharon stewarts tanty last week which I highly doubt was her own work.

      • RedBaronCV 6.1.1
        23 February 2014 at 11:07 am

        If any bloggers on here live in Sharon’s area might be good to get in touch with her office and suggest she gets on with running Auckland which is what she is paid to do. A bit of Faux concern about how the scandals are hurting the right wing image as icing on the cake.

        • tc 6.1.1.1
          23 February 2014 at 12:07 pm

          Waste of time IMO, thats exactly what her, brewer, krum, quax etc are paid to do, continue to undermine brown.

          Supercity is nacts vehicle to take over akl assets, the poodles led by banks jnr will not stop yapping until thats achieved.

          Getting rate and taxpayers to fund that agenda is a bonus, not that they need the cash as I hear Waitemata trust is very flush.

    • weka 6.2
      23 February 2014 at 11:01 am

      Wow, that’s a really long article, with some interesting biases. Am curious as to why Tiso attracts so much criticism.

      Also interesting to see the humanising and cleaning up of Slater’s image underway.

      Ideas vs personality, heh.

      • RedBaronCV 6.2.1
        23 February 2014 at 11:10 am

        Mouth still open – the “warm and cuddly Slater image” ?

        As to bias no women mentioned, I think, Herald gotta problem, woman ban in place?

      • RedLogix 6.2.2
        23 February 2014 at 11:32 am

        Clearly a strong attempt to rehabilitate Slater. Which demonstrates exactly how important and central to the right-wing he is.

        While I despise him with every fibre of my being – I never underestimated him. Slater is absolutely central to their value system and is now a prime channel for promulgating it. Key’s weekly chats with Slater are not an idle amusement in a bored moment; they will be a critical part of Key’s strategy and communications plan.

    • ianmac 6.3
      23 February 2014 at 11:24 am

      I do not really think Mr Key is that much in touch with Mr Slater. It was either a distraction ploy, (once Slater is hinted at we stop looking) or a deliberate effort to campaign amongst the Whale oil commentators. “I say chaps, John Key is one of us you know, so we should jolly well vote for him don’t you think?”

      • RedLogix 6.3.1
        23 February 2014 at 11:35 am

        I do not really think Mr Key is that much in touch with Mr Slater.

        When were you last in touch with a Prime Minister – ever?

        • marty mars 6.3.1.1
          23 February 2014 at 11:58 am

          Exactly! That is the point – well put red.

          • veutoviper 6.3.1.1.1
            23 February 2014 at 1:09 pm

            +1 – but I would put it the other way around. When was a PM directly in touch with you?

            A question several journalists (Herald ones) tweeted each other sarcastically just after the Key statement. re his calling WO regularly.

        • ianmac 6.3.1.2
          23 February 2014 at 12:32 pm

          The context in which Mr Key hinted that Mr Slater was a confidante seemed to me that it was so unlikely that he was, and more likely that it was a slip-up being covered-up. It is true that Mr Key has not contacted me once this year even though I am freely available to offer considered opinions to him.
          Sad really that only people who have conversations with Mr Key should offer opinions about his behaviours. The rest of you must remain silent!

      • weka 6.3.2
        23 February 2014 at 11:39 am

        You think that Slater’s crowd don’t already vote on the right?

        • ianmac 6.3.2.1
          23 February 2014 at 4:18 pm

          Are you suggesting that Leaders should not “visit” those who likely would vote for them weka? Anyway, I just doubt the legitimacy of the belief in Key/Slater rapport.

          • weka 6.3.2.1.1
            23 February 2014 at 5:12 pm

            Key isn’t talking to Slater weekly because he wants him to vote for National. I think leaders can visit whoever they like. But they will come under scrutiny if they lack judgement in who they visit. And let’s not forget the context of this particular contact between PM and constituent.

    • Rosie 6.4
      23 February 2014 at 5:28 pm

      marty mars

      Lol, Pete George is on to that Herald article too and mentions you, and karol, and mickey savage, and zetetic……………..aww still thinking of you all. Ain’t that just the sweetest thing…………..

      http://yournz.org/

  7. tricledrown 7
    23 February 2014 at 11:45 am

    Auspylands
    Serial lies again
    Reverse cycle water heaters are dearer to run than a standard electric water heater because of the set up costs then a limited life span of the mechanism of 10 years.
    Gas heating is also dearer.
    Double glazing is only guaranteed for ten years needing expensive reglazing.
    Insulation is a good idea.
    But as usual National first changed govt funded retrofiting insulation so only wealthy people could afford it Now they have scraped it .

  8. captain hook 8
    23 February 2014 at 12:02 pm

    Donkeyotay would we well advised to steer clear of slater and his crew. They are on the road to being charged with fomenting civil disorder. They think they can get away with anything they like but the moment they step over the mark they will feel the full force of the law.

  9. rhinocrates 9
    23 February 2014 at 12:33 pm

    “How is it, then, that bloggers can be so outspokenly partisan, can get into bed with the politicians and still call themselves journalists?”

    Oh my God, the irony, it burns.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/technology/news/article.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=11208097

    • rhinocrates 9.1
      23 February 2014 at 12:49 pm

      Hmm, having some technical difficulties, so I can’t amend my post… anyway, to add, the moron – some personoid, creature, whatever called Jonathan Milne – writing the piece thinks that the ability to attract advertising revenue is a measure of someone’s worth. He/it gives away a lot in that short statement.

      That’s The Herald!

      I’ve been watching House of Cards – the American remake with Kevin Spacey lately, and there’s a paper called “The Washington Herald”. Always, the camera frames it as “The Was”. That’s old media.

  10. logie97 10
    23 February 2014 at 1:23 pm

    State of the country’s education
    Not exactly a ringing endorsement from a former employer of his staff?

    “When I was at Auckland Grammar, people would often say what a wonderful institution I was in charge of,” Morris says. “But there is no point having a nice building if you have lousy teachers.”

    Of course, he would no doubt believe that when he was in the classroom he was a brilliant teacher. “Oh why couldn’t they all be like me …?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11208096

  11. phillip ure 11
    23 February 2014 at 2:51 pm

    gee..!..that rory-the-green from politicheck…(over on that politcheck-thread..)

    ..is being very coy about answering my (quite straightforward to my mind) questions about the ideological-tinges/records of those helping him settle the form/function imperatives of this new political watchdog..

    ..i asked if truth-bender farrar is involved..if the rightwing trout hooten is involved..

    ..(but then..he did say he was staying away from ‘the fringe’..eh..?

    ..and libertarian hooten..and farrar…the main architect/peddler of the vile campaigns of lies/hatred against the weakest/poorest of our country..oh..!..since he started kiwiblog..?

    ..if they aren’t truth-bending fringe..who are..?

    ..and you know what..?

    ..i fear my wild guess on this..is correct..

    ..and if rory happens to be from the right/libertarian-wing of the green party..

    ..well then..this politicheck thing is a rightwing attack-machine..

    ..how can it not be..?

    ..rory-the-green really needs to come-clean..

    ..eh..?

    phillip ure..

    • phillip ure 11.1
      23 February 2014 at 2:53 pm

      moderation..

      phillip ure..

      • phillip ure 11.1.1
        23 February 2014 at 3:14 pm

        and imagine if..say..that other far-right trout jordan carter were also involved..?

        ..whoar..!

        ..eh..?

        ..(and here’s a knee-slapper..!..)..maybe they even have acceptable-gatekeeper-wannabe edwards-the-younger on board..

        ..(snigger/snort!’..he could be their ersatz-‘leftie’..eh..?..

        ..and of course with him..they would also be blessed with/by the presence of one pete george..whoar..!..eh..?..)

        ..and as for rory-the-green..?

        it’s really a matter of:..

        ‘..politichecker..!..first politicheck thyself..!..’

        ..eh..?

        ..phillip ure..

    • freedom 11.2
      23 February 2014 at 4:19 pm

      phil, is there much point in screaming fire if no-one has actually opened the box of matches ?

      I hope they find a way to make politicheck work and this is the line that holds most promise, imho.

      In the interests of transparency, all our researchers will have their affiliations listed and their names published on the articles they worked on, much the same as mine.

      Not an easy statement to back away from if they do fail to deliver [unbiased] fact checking

      • phillip ure 11.2.1
        23 February 2014 at 4:58 pm

        freedom..

        ..it’s more the ‘screaming’ silence ..since a really simple question was asked..

        ..look at my first comment in that thread..to see my initial reaction to this..

        ..but we are allowed no questions..?

        ..especially of this person who has done a seagull-drop..

        ..and then flown away..?

        ..the questions aren’t going to go away..eh..?

        ..’cos america has versions of what this may be..

        ..rightwing attack-machines cloaked in ‘fact-checking’-robes..

        ..and..i hope i am proved to be questioning unecessarily..

        ..(i again refer back to my initial comment in that thread..)

        ..phillip ure..

        • weka 11.2.1.1
          23 February 2014 at 5:17 pm

          Where did all these mountains come from? Weren’t there molehills there before?

        • freedom 11.2.1.2
          23 February 2014 at 6:38 pm

          Phil,
          I am not saying you are wrong,
          just looking at the facts.

          The site is new, it’s looking for volunteers, there is probably a fair bit of mail for the crew to get through, and as yet there has not been one published “checked fact” for anyone to comment on, let alone the vast conspiracy you seem to be consigning the site to. Have you considered the lack of immediate action in the site getting back to you might actually be a good thing? If they had gotten back to everyone straight away would that have not raised much bigger alarm bells as to how they are resourced?

          I have not read the thread you reference, (guessing you mean yesterday’s posting on politicheck?) I saw the politicheck site link, went and looked at the site and now wait for updates on their status so further assessment can occur.

          the situation reminds me of reviews based on trailers and not the film itself

          often the critics are correct, but every now and then . . . egg on face
          don’t let it happen to you is all

          peace

        • McFlock 11.2.1.3
          23 February 2014 at 6:51 pm

          Translated: someone failed tp pay attention to phil, so it’s a fringe-right wing conspiracy

          • freedom 11.2.1.3.1
            23 February 2014 at 6:59 pm

            bit harsh McFlock!

            phil has valid questions, and i am sure answers will eventually arrive

          • Murray Olsen 11.2.1.3.2
            24 February 2014 at 1:53 am

            oh noes………eh

            how could they …

            the inventor of nationalisation ….eh

            and 3 dots …

            libertarians, eh….

            ….eh?

  12. srylands 12
    23 February 2014 at 3:02 pm

    https://www.ipredict.co.nz/app.php?do=contract_detail&contract=PM.2014.LABOUR

    I see that rich prick leftie is “manipulating” the ipredict market yet again with a 1925 Buy order on “PM Labour”.

    What was that claim again? Oh yes the market can be manipulated by a fuckwit with a spare thousand.

    • bad12 12.1
      23 February 2014 at 3:36 pm

      SSLands, is that why you gamble on that site, fuck-wit is what we usually attach to you as an epithet,

      Glad to see you agree with us all here at the Standard on the important issues…

      • srylands 12.1.1
        23 February 2014 at 4:30 pm

        I see you are being foul mouthed and rude as usual today. On a related topic, did you see you are (in)famous on Kiwiblog? Although they are too polite to call you a fuckwit.

        It is not gambling any more than the stockmarket is. Do you direct that your retirement savings not be invested in stocks? No, didn’t think so. Because presumably you are not a fuckwit.

        Ipredict is authorised by the Securities Commission as a futures dealer.

        And for your own sake stop being so foul mouthed and rude. It is disgusting.

        • bad12 12.1.1.1
          23 February 2014 at 4:38 pm

          SSLands, if i am attracting abusive comments on one or other of the Sewers channels it simply means that those who i have given a verbal slapping are too thin skinned and have run off to whine like dogs over there,

          And no, i do not feel a need to dirty myself reading such rubbish as the blog you mention so my infamy or otherwise in the sewers network is immaterial,

          What is more important given that National/ACT have decided to spend YOUR money, Ha-ha-ha upon brand new white-ware for ME, Ha-ha-ha, is the little question i have for you being my adopted bill payer SSLands, silver or white for the new fridge/freezer YOU are paying for SSLands, Ha-ha-ha…

        • Colonial Viper 12.1.1.2
          23 February 2014 at 4:43 pm

          Hey shit head

          Since you hold the bottom 95% of NZers in contempt and disdain, your concept of “politeness” is just an elitist farce.

        • phillip ure 12.1.1.3
          23 February 2014 at 5:03 pm

          “..on Kiwiblog? Although they are too polite ..”

          now..that is one thing i have never heard said before..

          ..of the denizens of the kiwiblog-swamp..

          ..that they are ‘too polite’…

          ..and not something..i must say..i ever saw..

          ..phillip ure..

        • bad12 12.1.1.4
          23 February 2014 at 5:05 pm

          Your point about my retirement savings is also an amusement SSLands, although you obviously not having a sense of humor never intended this to be thus,

          My retirement savings are all on deposit in the Bank of Tane Mahuta SSLands, the Tararua branch of the ”bank” to be exact, lolz, you might be able to see the particular ”branch” below which my deposit lurks from your lounge window, Ha-ha-ha…

    • Skinny 12.2
      23 February 2014 at 5:08 pm

      Why don’t Ipredict run market for how many people do or don’t turn up to vote?

      Framing a Non Voters market you would think 800,000+ would be 100-1
      300,000- set at about 2-1

      Sound about right Shrilland?

    • wtl 12.3
      23 February 2014 at 5:25 pm

      Hey fuckwit. That is the same trader you highlighted the other day. Obviously, his order for 2.5K shares on that stock still hasn’t been fulfilled since he is buying for the low price of $0.36. The price for that stock is effectively fixed at ~$0.36 because this large buy order is dominating all other buy orders, as I said would happen. I can’t see why the fuck you think that ipredict tells you anything – the volume traded is so low that one or two traders with a bit of cash to spare can set the price to whatever they want.

      As I pointed out to you then, if he was really a rich leftie manipulating the stock, he would have simply used his money to mop up all those shares that are being sold at >$0.36 and push the price of the stock up. You really are a clueless fuck, aren’t you?

      Or perhaps that is your buy order and you are trying to suck people into selling at the price to make a tidy profit when Cunliffe because our next PM? You certainly have been pushing ipredict a lot these past few weeks.

    • mickysavage 12.4
      23 February 2014 at 6:17 pm

      srylands let it go …

      Take your keys off the keyboard and go outside and enjoy the summer. Ipredict is subject to manipulation. It also has a right wing bias. This is why lefties can actually do quite well with it.

  13. amirite 13
    23 February 2014 at 4:15 pm

    Kim Dotcom’s hearing to be delayed again. I haven’t got much love for him , but I agree when he says that the delay will save John Key embarrassment during an election campaign.
    Hard not to believe that the Minister of Jackets didn’t give a little push for the Court’s decision.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9754895/Kim-Dotcom-hearing-to-be-delayed

    • Sponge 13.1
      23 February 2014 at 6:42 pm

      Really? If Dotcom was an going to be an embarrassment I would have thought Key would want him out of the country pronto? If
      he is corrupt enough to delay a hearing then surely he is corrupt enough to bring one forward?

      • Murray Olsen 13.1.1
        24 February 2014 at 2:00 am

        That makes no sense at all. If embarrassing details are going to come out at the hearing, Key would want to put it off until after the elections. He wouldn’t want them fresh in the mind of voters while they line up at the polls, and despite the best efforts of NAct’s crack legal team of Collins and Finlayson, a finding against Dotcom is still not guaranteed.

  14. mickysavage 14
    23 February 2014 at 6:13 pm

    Latest Colmar Brunton is out. It claims National is up 6% to 51%, Labour is unchanged on 34%, Greens are down 5% to 8%, NZ First down 1% to 3%, the conservatives are on 1% as is the Maori Party.

    The poll appears to be a rogue. I do not know why National should benefit from Green vote.

    And Monty it appears that everything you have been saying today is, with respect, incorrect. How about an apology?

    • fisiani 14.1
      23 February 2014 at 6:15 pm

      Only 51% for National. Surely this is a rogue poll . It should be near 60%

    • BM 14.2
      23 February 2014 at 6:26 pm

      The greens are predominately a middle/upper class white party.

      I think Normans silliness over the last few weeks has really hurt the greens and put a lot of people off.

      • weka 14.2.1
        23 February 2014 at 8:17 pm

        That’s right. Upper/middle class green voters don’t want solar power rolled out across the country 🙄

    • bad12 14.3
      23 February 2014 at 6:28 pm

      A real little amusement isn’t it MS, the Green Party losing 5% of their vote to the National Party, only in the dreams of the little tory that obviously thrills at making shit up,

      Winston’s lot on 3%, the propaganda machine is having to stretch reality past the bounds of credibility with this one,

      i was tho amused with the ”art” of those kids at that school in Slippery the PM’s electorate, trust the young to see everything for what it is befor the brainwashing begins to sink in,

      The PM’s face being depicted in the kids painting of a mural sitting comfortably framed by a Donkey’s arse fits nicely with my oft stated proposition that Slippery the PM covers over the Large bald spot on His nut with the soft anal hairs plucked from a donkeys arse,

      Wonder if the kids named that particular donkey Brucie, great painting, shame the same couldn’t be said about the rush of polls bullshitting us, as they did last election, with the Governing alone crap…

    • Barnsley Bill 14.4
      23 February 2014 at 6:33 pm

      Why would you think Nats have pinched from Greens?
      A far more sensible explanation would be that Lab have taken some at the lunatic end with the cash for breeders policy but lost some at the less nutty end to the Nats.

      • bad12 14.4.1
        23 February 2014 at 6:37 pm

        Barnsly Bill, your award for the dull Dunces comment of the day is in the post, the Labour poll % hasn’t moved since the last propaganda release from Colmar/National…

        • cricklewood 14.4.1.1
          23 February 2014 at 7:00 pm

          Um think you missed the point.. for arguments sake, the greens lost 5 points to Labour and Labour in turn lost five to the nats…. in terms of labour maybe they gained some votes at the left end of the spectrum but lost some of the more neolib inclined supporters to the nats. Tis possible labour has moved back left and has a leader that appeals to the left wing base now…
          Or its just an outlier….

        • Disraeli Gladstone 14.4.1.2
          23 February 2014 at 7:00 pm

          Oh. Oh dear. You looked very silly.

          What Barnsley is saying (whether he’s right or not is another issue) is that National while went up and Greens went down, it wasn’t all one group of voters moving from the Greens to National.

          Rather, Labour was on 34%. It gained 5% from the Greens due to strong left-wing policy. It then lost 5% to National due to centrist leaving. Therefore National goes up, Greens goes down, Labour stays the same.

          Whether that’s right or wrong (it’s probably wrong) is up to debate… but you ended up looking like the dunce for not understanding that.

          • bad12 14.4.1.2.1
            23 February 2014 at 7:12 pm

            Poor old Disraeli Gallstone, obviously you believe in Christmas and other fairy tales as well, just like Barnsley Bill obviously does,

            Colmar/national always polls National 3-4% above their actual support and the Green Party 3-5% below,

            The fact that you and BB the Dunce place any real credence whatsoever in these fairy tales as anything but propaganda and then proceed to embellish that propaganda with a little narrative speculating on this and that proves nothing about the previous comment i made to BB, it simply proves that the pair of you along with the ‘wing-nut’ chorus are happy to indugle in bouts of public masterbation…

            • Disraeli Gladstone 14.4.1.2.1.1
              23 February 2014 at 8:55 pm

              “Whether that’s right or wrong (it’s probably wrong)”

              That’s what I said to you.

              I don’t think this poll is right.

              I was just merely commenting on your abysmal skills of reading comprehension. Amazingly, your response is another example of poor reading comprehension.

              • bad12 …
                24 February 2014 at 8:10 am

                Disraeli Gallstone, wrong, i fully comprehend the little mathematics game the ‘wing-nuts’ choose to play to explain this particular piece of propaganda,

                i just choose to use ignorance to portray my disbelief and it works a treat especially on those ‘wing-nuts’ that choose to pile in to blow their flatulence claiming victory across the pages of the Standard where those same ‘wing-nuts’ have little history of commenting here previously,

                You may choose to believe that 10% of the left’s voters have chosen to suddenly engage in an electoral shuffle of their support toward the right, or, you may chose as i do to see these polls as having an element of manufacture within them with an actual intent of swaying softer voters intentions,

                Of course if you have the slightest belief in the latter proposition then my belief is that showing any sign of belief in the little ‘wing-nut’ theory of a 10% shift of the left’s vote to the right is to put yourself in the position of a soft voter able to be swayed by the media bullshit, in other words a mere serf to the likes of Patrick Gower etc,

                There are enough here who engage in the ‘wailing’ after each successive negative poll for the left to form a large enough ‘chorus of tears’ and i do not propose to become one of them, IF defeat occurs in 2014 i will only concede at the point the vote is counted,

                Until then i will happily engage the ‘wing-nuts’ who fly in to spew on a momentary basis with derision which includes the pretense of deliberately misrepresenting the content of any of their particular comments, a little trick i learned from them…

                • Disraeli Gladstone …
                  24 February 2014 at 9:24 am

                  You’re not even addressing what I’m saying anymore. You’re ignoring my post and having a completely separate conversation.

                  Essentially, you are arguing with yourself. So I’ll leave you to it. Good luck.

            • srylands 14.4.1.2.1.2
              23 February 2014 at 10:55 pm

              You are famous again!

            • srylands 14.4.1.2.1.3
              23 February 2014 at 10:58 pm

              His response is another example of his shocking rudeness.

              OK forget the polls. Bad12 says the Greens will get between 12 and 15%. Everything is fine.

              • srylands …
                23 February 2014 at 11:00 pm

                PLus you can’t spell “masturbation”. Although that is secondary to your vileness in using the word in this context. You should be ashamed.

                • McFlock …
                  23 February 2014 at 11:14 pm

                  awwww, like you’re so fucking pristine.

                • Disraeli Gladstone …
                  23 February 2014 at 11:18 pm

                  Oh.

                  OH.

                  My time machine worked. I’m back in the 1950s!

                  Seriously. Bad12 apparently can’t read or spell, but saying that using the word “masturbation” is vile?

                  Really?

              • bad12 …
                24 February 2014 at 7:33 am

                SSLands please refer to my comment posted at 8.26pm, my ‘rudeness’ actually knows no bounds when directed at a ‘wing-nut’ like you…

      • thor42 14.4.2
        23 February 2014 at 6:41 pm

        Correct, BB.

    • bobo67 14.5
      23 February 2014 at 6:35 pm

      Simple. The policies announced by Labour had pulled support from the greens, to Labour, but has sent labour support to the Nats. Assuming the 6% that National has gained has come from the Greens who lost 5% and claiming that to be the reason for the poll being rogue is a bit rich.

    • Old Tony 14.6
      23 February 2014 at 6:37 pm

      Is it not possible that Green vote at the margin moved to Labour and Labour vote at the margin moved to National rather than Green vote leapfrogging Labour to National?

      • bad12 14.6.1
        23 February 2014 at 6:39 pm

        Old Tony, it is also possible that there really are little Green Men, have you seen any recently…

      • mickysavage 14.6.2
        23 February 2014 at 6:39 pm

        Possible but I do not see why the Green vote would go to Labour.

        This is a rogue. Polling is getting more and more random.

        • thor42 14.6.2.1
          23 February 2014 at 6:43 pm

          Ahhhhh… the sweet sound of denial…….. 🙂

          Keep it up! (Shhhhh…. don’t tell anyone that you are really a Nats “plant”……. 🙂 )

          • bad12 14.6.2.1.1
            23 February 2014 at 6:51 pm

            Denial, now what was Colmar Brunton polling National at prior to the 2011 election, oh that’s right a ‘Govern Alone 50%’,

            The desperate from the sewer pour into the Standard to try and convince us of a victory, remember your stupidity after the vote in 2014 which will see National not as governing alone, but, as the biggest opposition party yet under the MMP system…

            • thor42 14.6.2.1.1.1
              23 February 2014 at 6:54 pm

              Desperate….. moi….. ?

              Why would we be “desperate” when three recent polls have shown us to be pushing 50%?

              Desperation is for the 30 percenters……. 🙂

              • bad12 …
                23 February 2014 at 7:00 pm

                Right so you are a true believer then, last election colamr/national polled the Tory’s at 50.3% just befor the election, what was the actual result again,

                Oh that’s right 47%, please keep dreaming the National governing alone rubbish it will be all the sweeter when National wind up as a very large opposition after the 2014 vote is taken…

              • Colonial Viper …
                23 February 2014 at 7:03 pm

                Why would we be “desperate” when three recent polls have shown us to be pushing 50%

                So, when is John Key about to blow off that crazy moon landing denier, Colin Craig?

                Except of course National still need the Conservatives on the scene.

        • Sponge 14.6.2.2
          23 February 2014 at 6:45 pm

          I think the greens would loose to Labour after Norman being was exposed fawning to Dotcom.

          • xtasy 14.6.2.2.1
            23 February 2014 at 10:39 pm

            Sponge – You raise an interesting and potentially valid point. Whether it was as the MSM portray it (which I question), that Norman more or less went “begging” to Dotcom to not start his Internet Party, or not, it raised the possibility that he did.

            In the public eye, even amongst some otherwise loyal Green voters, this could have led to serious disappointment, as the Greens have previously always tried to maintain an image of honesty, openness, transparency and independence.

            The same media reports about Winston Peters having visited Dotcom, allegedly 3 times, then Peters reacting angrily, first denying this, and later claiming that Key may have had the GCSB spy on him, that will likely have disappointed some otherwise rather loyal supporters of NZ First and Winston.

            I think that whether justified or not, bot suffered some loss of credibility in the public’s perception, hence the support in this poll went down for both parties, and significantly.

            The Green’s solar energy policy release may not have impacted on this poll, but even that release was only moderately well received by the media, as it seems.

            The MSM are ridiculed by some here, but sadly, most people out there still use them for most of their “humble” and poor quality information uptake, to base decisions on.

    • mickysavage 14.7
      23 February 2014 at 6:45 pm

      Gawd all the wing nuts are here. Did Cameron send you over?

      • thor42 14.7.1
        23 February 2014 at 6:51 pm

        Abuse aside, do you not admit that the reason for the flow of votes outlined by several of us makes sense?

        It is fricking obvious, surely!
        You have gained some votes from fruitcakes but lost some of the middle-ground people.
        Swings and roundabouts.
        I’ll bet you that even Chris Trotter would agree with me.

        It may not be “nice” but the truth sometimes hurts….

        • felix 14.7.1.1
          23 February 2014 at 6:59 pm

          It’s a nice theory, sewer rat, but it relies on believing that the Greens dropped more than a third of their vote for no clear reason.

          Smells like bullshit.

        • Colonial Viper 14.7.1.2
          23 February 2014 at 7:01 pm

          The key for the Left remains turning out the bottom 50% of the population to vote.

          That means policies and politicians directly engaging with that part of the electorate, while emphasising to the top 50% of voters that not only is it the right thing to do to leave no one behind, but that it is economically crucial for the long term well being of society.

          • BM 14.7.1.2.1
            23 February 2014 at 7:17 pm

            How’s this for a crazy idea, how about come up with some policies that actually appeal to the majority of voters.

            This bribing the bludgers strategy is shit and in all honesty labour, deserves to die because of it.

            • felix 14.7.1.2.1.1
              23 February 2014 at 7:26 pm

              “How’s this for a crazy idea, how about come up with some policies that actually appeal to the majority of voters.”

              That’d be Green policy.

            • bad12 14.7.1.2.1.2
              23 February 2014 at 7:38 pm

              Yeah BM, it must be damn disheartening for none of them to be offering you a bribe for your vote this time round right…

              • BM …
                23 February 2014 at 7:41 pm

                I don’t need or want to be bribed, especially with my own money.

                What’s best for the country is of more importance to me.

                • felix …
                  23 February 2014 at 7:46 pm

                  Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

                  • bad12 …
                    23 February 2014 at 7:48 pm

                    Lolz, felix has just given you the only logical answer to your latest comment, i could not have put it more succinctly…

                • Colonial Viper …
                  23 February 2014 at 7:46 pm

                  Bullshit.

                  You only care about the top 5%, you consider the rest of the nation wasters and disposable.

                • felix …
                  23 February 2014 at 7:47 pm

                  hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

                • felix …
                  23 February 2014 at 7:48 pm

                  hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
                  hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
                  hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

                • felix …
                  23 February 2014 at 7:49 pm

                  hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
                  hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
                  hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
                  hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
                  hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
                  hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

                  [lprent: Do you have an Igor to help improve that crazy laugh? Bring it back when it isn’t quite so repetitive. ]

                  • felix …
                    23 February 2014 at 8:04 pm

                    Blame BM, he’s the comedian

                    • McFlock …
                      23 February 2014 at 8:34 pm

                      Now now, Felix, BM is just a lovely fellow who simply wants the best for NZ, and his comments here are simply honest and intelligent advisories on how we can all bring about the best for NZ.

                      He’s certainly not a lying prick shilling for a government of thieves and crooks, simply to lower his tax bill by a few percent and callous as to the tragic effect this will have on the lives of others. /sarc

                  • Dan …
                    23 February 2014 at 8:12 pm

                    I hope you remember to keep laughing when National win in October and royally fuck you and all your lefie mates in the arse as well sell this country to our bankster mates and Chinese overlords

                    • bad12 …
                      23 February 2014 at 9:04 pm

                      Dan, you should write the script for Nationals election billboards…

                    • felix …
                      23 February 2014 at 9:34 pm

                      Well Dan I’ve been laughing for the last 5 years as they’ve fucked all the idiots like yourself who voted for them against your own interests.

          • xtasy 14.7.1.2.2
            23 February 2014 at 10:55 pm

            Correct, and that is IMPORTANT.

            But the bottom 50 per cent may be better off with a $ 16 minimum wage, ideally at least a living wage, no GST on essential food and other common use items, perhaps even a universal basic income (also used as a direct tax credit for those that earn above that annual UBI amount), and a more comprehensive housing policy, than something like “Best Start”, which sounds ok, but is just another WFF type benefit, costing much to administer.

            With a UBI and radical tax reform, and reducing WINZ to focus only on topping up those that have extra needs due to disability, illness, parenting, accommodation, huge amounts could be saved on bureaucracy.

            They may also be better off with some comprehensive state investments (SOEs) in infrastructure projects to build better public transport, value adding production plants for agricultural products, more wind-farms, solar thermal energy generation plants, geothermal projects, with a clear strategy for boosting local manufacturing (tax holidays or reductions as incentives for businesses to set up manufacturing here), with having more comprehensive training and more accessible education, combined with high-calibre research projects to develop niche foodstuffs, to research particular areas in health and environmental areas, and so forth.

            People would see this agenda as revolutionary and a game changer, targeted at the long term future of the country, rather than what Labour has presented so far, which is a patchwork of bits here and there, but not changing the system as it is.

            The top 50 % (certainly top 25 to 30 %) need to be held to account and do their share to build for the future, and not get away with just planning for secure personal nest-eggs and personal savings plans, while forgetting the country.

            A clear difference in policy direction to National and ACT is overdue, all else is just not going to “thrill” people that much now.

    • RedBaronCV 14.8
      23 February 2014 at 9:03 pm

      Or those surveyed are making a concerted effort to lie, just to upset the pollsters. It would be tempting if one was a green

  15. Bob 15
    23 February 2014 at 6:31 pm

    Micky, surely your are joking?
    The last FOUR polls in recent weeks have ALL showed national gaining and labour/greens declining with National being able to (or almost able to) govern alone.
    According to many commenters on this site, the last 6 Years polls are rogue. Surely you aren’t going to fall into this rhetoric as well?

    Denial won’t change things.

    • mickysavage 15.1
      23 February 2014 at 7:20 pm

      Bob you will have more credibility if you post to the right comment.

      • Rob 15.1.1
        23 February 2014 at 9:25 pm

        What do you mean denial, Da Nial is a river in Egypt, and yes polling for Labour is looking sharp!

      • Bob 15.1.2
        24 February 2014 at 12:12 pm

        Just to give the Bob above a fair go (I am guessing your lack of patience with him is due to our differring views in the past), it wasn’t me making that comment (although I completely agree with everything the other Bob has stated).

  16. Bob 16
    23 February 2014 at 6:33 pm

    Also, national hasn’t gained the greens vote. The likely case is national have picked up labour vote and in turn labour has picked up greens vote.

    • thor42 16.1
      23 February 2014 at 6:45 pm

      Yep ….. correct!

    • bad12 16.2
      23 February 2014 at 6:54 pm

      Yawn, check the polls prior to the 2011 vote, all of them with the ‘National governing alone lies’, all wrong,

      No Maori Party as the lapdog this time round children, looks a bit like the prize for the biggest opposition party under MMP is coming your way…

  17. Danske 17
    23 February 2014 at 6:47 pm

    A new poll is out, with not very good news for the Green Party.
    http://curiablog.wordpress.com/2014/02/23/one-news-colmar-brunton-poll-february-2014/

  18. Brett Dale 18
    23 February 2014 at 7:09 pm

    So what are the trends saying?

    • bad12 18.1
      23 February 2014 at 7:18 pm

      The trends Brett Dale are saying that colmar/national have just released another piece of propaganda which has got all the wing-nuts going from simply being heavy breathing porn watchers to being true believers that displays of public masterbation will enable national to govern alone after the vote in 2014…

      • Brett Dale 18.1.1
        23 February 2014 at 9:59 pm

        bad12

        I think it has the greens too low, they should be at 10%

        Although I think it shows that a certain fat german has hurt the left.

        • felix 18.1.1.1
          24 February 2014 at 7:37 am

          “I think it has the greens too low, they should be at 10%”

          Yay, the poll of Brett’s Mind is out.

          Readers should be aware that Brett’s Mind has had the Greens at roughly half of their actual result for the last two elections.

          • Brett Dale 18.1.1.1.1
            24 February 2014 at 11:30 am

            felix:

            The greens got 20% last election? of the party vote?

            This election the greens will get 10%, they wont be as low as 8%.

            And again, dotcom is hurting you guys.

            • felix 18.1.1.1.1.1
              24 February 2014 at 11:12 pm

              Last election you said the polls were wrong about the Greens. You said they would be lucky to get 7%.

  19. Scott1 19
    23 February 2014 at 7:19 pm

    I think this poll is probably slightly high for national but not by much so National can still govern alone. If NZ first gets in then Labour is quite far from being in government.

    Labour needs to adjust their strategy…

    • bad12 19.1
      23 February 2014 at 7:31 pm

      Please,please, stop with the funnies will you, my gut has just started processing dinner and the laughter is a definite interference in that process,

      National heading for the prize of being the largest opposition since the beginning of MMP, even Slippery the PM couldn’t raise a smile when commenting on the latest piece of propaganda, although it was gut busting to see the PM depicted in a mural as a semi-part of a donkeys arse…

    • SHG (not Colonial Viper) 19.2
      24 February 2014 at 12:54 am

      Labour needs to adjust their strategy…

      Labour needs to have a strategy.

  20. James Thrace 20
    23 February 2014 at 7:21 pm

    This is the problem for Labour and Greens

    New Immigrants who are eligible to vote.

    When new immigrants are sucked into believing that “…the Conservative Party is good for Christians, Green Party good for environment, Labour Party good for the poor and National Party good for business” then it’s obviously time for Labour to get off it’s lazy entitled ass, and start shifting that perception through clever social media advertising.

    It’s the only way to shift that bitch!

    National is only good for BIG business, but sucks for our entrepreneurs. Labour is the party for the workers, and wants to ensure that all workers benefit from any economic upside – National only wants the CEOs to benefit and the people that do the hard work, our everyday workers, to not receive any benefit but to be happy with the crumbs from the table.

    The message should be that Labour is not ashamed to say it stands for ensuring that every person who wants to work, can, BUT should be entitled to receive a fair days wage for a fair days pay. Labour needs to be UPFRONT and thunder that it is WRONG and UNCONSCIONABLE for overseas corporations to treat New Zealand workers like COTTON PICKERS!

    It’s emotive language for sure, but emotions win elections. Labour and the Greens won’t get anywhere being namby pamby and focusing on Key. KEY is the WRONG area to target. National policies needs to be ignored and Labour needs to start highlighting NOW! Stop banging on about what National has done or not, start banging on NOW!

    NOW: Your wages haven’t moved in 5 years, yet the cost of living has gone up. Labour wants to ensure that you can afford to live and have enough to save for the things you want.

    NOW: Your power prices are amongst the highest in the OECD. Labour wants you to stop paying so much for power, and have money for the things that matter.

    NOW: New Zealand has lost too many workers in the forestry sector thanks to unregulated activities causing death. Labour wants every worker to be safe at work, and not be at risk of dying for the corporate.

    NOW: There aren’t enough jobs for everyone who wants one. Labour wants people to have every opportunity to find a job, and if they can’t, help people while they look for work.

    NOW: Education has become too expensive for many people. Labour believes in free education for everyone under 18 and will work to restore the right to free education.

    NOW: People aren’t being fairly remunerated for a 40 hour week. Labour believes the corporates have more than enough ability to adequately compensate their employees with a fair wage.

    NOW: Labour believes that New Zealanders are being targeted by overseas corporates with no regard for the true cost of living in New Zealand. Labour will work to ensure that New Zealanders are treated on a level playing field with the cost of goods and services.

    It is so simple and easy to do. The soundbites are easy, and National have done fine on a “less said the better” policy when it comes to people talking about what they perceive National to be doing.

    The left get sucked into believing that they need to counter the lack of concrete substance by National with a marshmallow puffed policy which is WRONG. Labours issue when they release policy is that they release far too much of it, giving their opponents grist for the mill.

    Compare and CONTRAST:

    National: – New policy. High performing teachers will be paid more and we’ll have special principals overlooking a number of different schools. Yada yada yada, more money but education good! Yay!

    Nil critical aspect, nil detail, and just a vague outline of what they propose.

    Labour: First time babies, $60 per week, except and unless, first year, second year, third year, $150,000, or not. Parental leave! Look! Details! More more details! Part time income! Working for Families! Entitlement! Everyone! Universal! Oh, no, wrong. Stop talking! Shoosh. Shucks, we flubbed it.

    Too much information, too much room for interpretation.

    Far better would have been: New policy: First start. All parents with babies will receive assistance and support. Further details released closer to election.

    Easy! Simple! Even Paddy Gower wouldn’t have been able to fuck that up.

    There are over 4 million reasons wrong with this country, where the CEO of a parasitic organisation can earn nearly 100 times more than the people that do the daily grind in the teller role, and are arguably more valuable to ANZ than the high falutin’ CEO. The tellers are the ones that keep the customers happy at the end of the day.

    Labour lose the plot when it comes to articulating their vision for a better New Zealand. It’s almost like they don’t understand the KISS principle. If they did, they might be better off.

    Labour needs to articulate the fact that they are the government for the PEOPLE. National are the government for OVERSEAS interests.

    Sing it loud, sing it proud. No need to proffer proof. Just keep tying OVERSEAS INTERESTS back to WARNER BROTHERS – RIO TINTO – BANK OF NEW YORK (and it’s 8 million shares in our former SOE)

    OVERSEAS INTERESTS = NATIONAL

    NEW ZEALANDERS = LABOUR

    So what do you want Kiwis? A government for New Zealand, or a Government for Overseas Interests?

    Make it the boogy man. Overseas Interests are the new “Reds under the Bed”

    Go forth, prosper.

    • Chooky 20.1
      23 February 2014 at 7:42 pm

      +1000…. James Thrace

    • Colonial Viper 20.2
      23 February 2014 at 7:45 pm

      Gawdammit James Thrace, that was good stuff.

      • James Thrace 20.2.1
        23 February 2014 at 8:10 pm

        Thanks Tat.

        I just get so frustrated and annoyed at what should be relatively simple politics and keep watching Labour stumble every time headlong into the catchers mitt that has been placed there so artfully by the likes of Gower et al.

        If only Labours media managers would stop insisting on having so much policy released upfront, and stop muzzling Cunliffe or whoever from being so restrained, Labour might actually have a chance to win.

        As I outlined above, the framing is right there, it’s NOW.

        As we’ve seen in the last two weeks with Progressive Enterprises, the mood is right to capture New Zealanders thinking about OVERSEAS INTERESTS and definitely put the framing square onto LABOUR for NEW ZEALAND and National for OVERSEAS INTERESTS!

        Easy framing, right timing.

        In politics, Timing is Everything.

        The Timing is Now, the framing is ready to roll.

        But who the heck is going to listen? I’m just another Labour party member that has no links to the hallowed halls of hell, nor do I have any inclination to get involved with the pit of self absorption that is the local LEC.

        • Norman 20.2.1.1
          23 February 2014 at 10:19 pm

          You think Parliamentary staff get to decide which policies get released and how much and in what form? You’ve clearly never been near Parliament.

        • ABS 20.2.1.2
          24 February 2014 at 9:13 am

          If only Labours media managers would stop insisting on having so much policy released upfront, and stop muzzling Cunliffe or whoever from being so restrained, Labour might actually have a chance to win.

          Well as I see it that’s exactly what theyre doing. Chinless wonder says what ever he wants and the only policy Labour has is regurgitated Greens policy or 1950s socialist propaganda.

    • Ad 20.3
      23 February 2014 at 8:59 pm

      Well said

    • tc 20.4
      23 February 2014 at 9:03 pm

      Nailed it James.

      simple effective slogans, used by all, ad nauseum, chimpboy, gooner and co cant twist it and the likes of mallard and goff cant grandstand with it.

      I hope some deadwood gets cleared out also but thats unlikely.

      Nats got in on a smile and wave with one liners , labour should do similar, the missing voters cant cope with unecessary detail, a change is what they will vote for.

    • Saarbo 20.5
      23 February 2014 at 9:41 pm

      That’s bloody good James.

    • xtasy 20.6
      23 February 2014 at 11:12 pm

      You raise valid points there, and believe in passion being part of politics, and it surely does and must be getting its fair share.

      The problem you will have with that approach is, that the MSM (mainstream media) will of course see this, and jump at it straight away, and than claim, it is just about “whipping up emotions”, but without any evidence to prove the arguments. They will take that approach to pieces, and then Labour and Greens will have to come and try and prove their arguments, and we are back to nitty gritty back and fro arguments about details, and hollowing out of what the message is meant to say.

      What we have here is a repeat of the last election campaigns, where the MSM are already largely feeding the public with the usual BIASED commentary and information (no background info, no analysis, treating Key and Nats with the soft brush, and Labour and Greens with a knife and hammer), all coming from the supposedly “independent” reporters and “media personalities” (having their personal “views”), and the public hear and read little else.

      The public then think, that is how it is, and hence they poll as they do, which reinforces again the conviction of the MSM that they are right with their (idiotic or manipulative) assessments. So you end up in a catch 22 situation, where polls feed and shape perception, and that again shapes commentary and views coming from the MSM, which again brings about the polls like a self fulfilling prophecy.

      The challenge is to go beyond the MSM, to go and hold public meetings, run public events and campaigns, aggressively and widely use social media, and to network and meet people face to face. There is no alternative to such damned hard work, and the first thing the Labour MPs in caucus can do, is start on Monday, doing exactly that.

      Visit work places, factories, council staff, drain layers, road workers, hospital nurses and doctors, people rebuilding in Christchurch, talk with the exploited foreign workers here, expose this, talk with the taxi drivers working 12 hour days for less than minimum pay per hour, talk with social workers, drug and alcohol counsellors, with stressed out teachers, with ECE workers, with beneficiaries struggling, and so forth it must go!

  21. Naki Man 21
    23 February 2014 at 7:28 pm

    Clusterfuck Cunliffe is Nationals greatest asset, the only thing saving him is Norman collapsing greens support by sucking up to the fat German fraudster.

    • felix 21.1
      23 February 2014 at 7:34 pm

      I don’t think you’re a ‘naki man at all. I bet you went to Auckland Grammar.

      • bad12 21.1.1
        23 February 2014 at 7:53 pm

        You could be onto something there felix, looks more like a Nakahi Man to me…

      • Galeandra 21.1.2
        23 February 2014 at 8:54 pm

        If he’s a ‘Naki’ man, then he’s only a thirty-something jerk, probably from Taranaki but not yet a man. It’s talk from the same generation as the ‘hard-core’ bullshit used to sell tee-shirts.
        Deconstructing his moniker is a tediously embarrassing business for anybody who’s actually lived an adult-hood in the place.

  22. bad12 22
    23 February 2014 at 7:57 pm

    Of course if Naki man was actually Taranaki man with the emphasis on the Tara from the more oblique usage of that particular word in some tribal dialects i could well believe Him to be that…

    • srylands 22.1
      23 February 2014 at 8:12 pm

      This denial is hilarious.

      • idlegus 22.1.1
        23 February 2014 at 8:25 pm

        the johnkey donkey mural was funnier. i’m trying to get a good screen capture so share the laughs. & the look on keys face when he had to sign its arse, hilarious!

        • bad12 22.1.1.1
          23 February 2014 at 8:29 pm

          Lolz there are some extremely clever kids in Slippery’s electorate, the mouthful of tea ended up expelled all over the place when i got a look at that…

      • bad12 22.1.2
        23 February 2014 at 8:26 pm

        SSLands, what the hell are you on about now, have not i told you on numerous occassions to stay off the internet when you have been on the bottle all day,

        Commenting when your pissed just makes you come across as more ludicrous than normal, i know that for you is probably a badge of honor as you seem incapable of anything but the ludicrous but you should have a small modicum of shame even in your drunken state,

        My advice of course is in your best interests as you should cease to turn up for your employment as a minor bean counting serf in your lonely little bean counters cubicle with a raging and patently obvious whisky hangover as despite your thinking otherwise your employment is far from assured into the future with your boss looking to increase profits by cutting out the under-performers,

        Is there any truth to the rumor that you consider your employment status to be safe during the upcoming restructuring of the company you are a serf for because as far as the boss is concerned you out of all the slaves gives the best blow-jobs…

  23. Ben Hur 23
    23 February 2014 at 8:12 pm

    I was looking forward to the Roy Morgan poll (a poll that the folks here seem to place a lot of faith in) showing Labour clawing back some ground, but unfortunately it showed gains to the Nats. The lack of discussion on this borad re the RM poll said it all. This latest poll reinforces National’s position, albeit with a different Left distribution. No matter how you slice & dice it, the CB poll is not good news for the Left, and Cunliffe slipping in the preferred PM stakes is a concern also (I can’t recall what Shearer was polling when he was rolled).

    IMO Labour are spending too much time attacking the Nats, and not enough time & energy promoting their own policy. Also, with the exception of recent performances from Jones, Labour don’t seem to have any depth to their team. What happened to the energy that Robertson exhibited during the leadership contest? If Cunliffe is struggling in the popularity stakes, his team need to step up, take some of the heat and show some passion, engage in intelligent & positive dialogue with the MSM, and act like a team that is capable of leading NZ.

    • bad12 23.1
      23 February 2014 at 8:38 pm

      Ben Hur, faith in the Roy Morgan, you have that slightly wrong, the Roy Morgan is of much more interest to us political junkies as it is produced on a far greater number of occasions than the other media polls and thus makes an interesting watch for ‘the trend’,

      Faith though is a measurement of respect in what is clearly a neutral polling organization and i for one have seen none of them recently which includes the Morgan poll in the none of them,

      Gary Morgan, son of Roy, and the current named proprietor of the Roy Morgan polling organization is heavily invested in Australian mining interests and if you think that such interests can fit in with a polling company being unbiased i fear for your sanity…

    • Anne 23.2
      23 February 2014 at 8:40 pm

      IMO Labour are spending too much time attacking the Nats, and not enough time & energy promoting their own policy.

      WRONG. The Nats and their acolytes are doing the attacking. And what’s more the claims are bogus lies and the MSM know it. Still, they let them get away with it. Labour and the Greens are the parties releasing damm good policies. By and large, the MSM are ignoring them – mind bogglingly concentrating on petty issues instead.

      • Ben Hur 23.2.1
        23 February 2014 at 8:52 pm

        The Nats have got their policy out there and understood, so arguably have the time to attack the Left. It will be interesting to see if there is any fallout with Bradbury stating that he talks with Cunliffe, and the fact (and therefore linkage) that Bradbury was in the pay of Dot Com.

        • SHG (not Colonial Viper) 23.2.1.1
          24 February 2014 at 1:15 am

          National’s policy is a simple one: “let us keep what we’re doing, you can see it’s working”.

          Labour hasn’t yet come up with a single thing to counter it.

      • Naki Man 23.2.2
        23 February 2014 at 9:11 pm

        Labour policies like turning people on $149k into beneficiaries and Greens policy like subsidised
        PV panels that are not cost effective, there is no need to tell lies these clowns are shooting themselves in the foot.

        • felix 23.2.2.1
          23 February 2014 at 10:15 pm

          “turning people on $149k into beneficiaries “

          That’s what you said about Working for Families. Don’t see National getting rid of it though.

          ps people on 149k are already beneficiaries.

      • xtasy 23.2.3
        23 February 2014 at 11:34 pm

        Yep, Anne, you got it!

        The MSM is corporate dominated, the top media bosses, the editors, the “media personalities”, they are clearly in their vast majority having a personal bias towards maintaining the status quo! And now APN have even bought the majority or total share holding of what was the Radio Network (1ZB and so forth).

        Just having listened to the conversations about the Shane Taurima incident or “scandal” at TVNZ, and how that was commented on by many, that sent shivers down my spine. The majority of the private media journalists and moderators try to portray themselves as “independent” and TVNZ and Radio NZ as “left leaning”. And they get away with it. Even Radio NZ disappointed me a bit with their last summary of this on Media Watch:

        http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2586711/mediawatch-for-23-february-2014

        A shocker to me was the last Focus on Politics program last Friday, and how that started, almost showing National in the best of light to fight poverty and social problems!? Hear it here, if you did not:

        http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2586637/poverty-and-inequality-looming-as-big-debate-of-election-year

        I did not hear the whole of Insight this morning, but I think it also tried to be overly “balanced” (careful to not upset the government) to report on how the public service have been treated under this government, and that is on Radio NZ National:

        http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2586566/insight-for-23-february-2014-public-service-survival

        Forget TVNZ, they are now so scared to say or present anything that may just slightly show Labour or Greens in a positive light, being “scared” by the reports of mostly private media persons, that they are “left leaning” and prone to bias. So the MSM is anything but helpful, it will NOT be useful to communicate to the public what matters, they are not going to do their job!

        But despite of this, I am still flabber-ghasted why Labour and Greens do not hammer Bennett on welfare issues, of which there are a many, and I know that others (besides myself) have sent some of the MPs a fair bit of very revealing, useful information, which is probably sitting and gathering dust, or has been deleted as too complex email communication.

        What they do wrong is going on about the same again and again and again, slogan like, but not expand the line of attack, and not fire with studied information, questions and arguments. Some of them are in my view not capable of doing their jobs, simple fact.

    • Naki Man 23.3
      23 February 2014 at 9:00 pm

      Jones is the stand out performer. The rest of the talentless bunch just have their nose in the trough.

      • Danske 23.3.1
        23 February 2014 at 10:28 pm

        The elephant in the room: why hasn’t David Cunliffe (and Labour) purged the likes of Phil Goff, Annette King and the treacherous Trevor Mallard? Why do these old-timers continue warming the benches and doing nothing sweet fuck all?

        • chris73 23.3.1.1
          23 February 2014 at 11:19 pm

          Why do these old-timers continue warming the benches and doing nothing sweet fuck all?

          I’m guessing its the pay, privileges and perks…doesn’t matter what side of the house you’re on

          • McFlock 23.3.1.1.1
            23 February 2014 at 11:22 pm

            keep stirring, your reputation might be overwhelmed by somenone’s confirmation bias and they’ll care about what YOU say regarding the labour caucus.

  24. Danske 24
    23 February 2014 at 8:52 pm

    Unless a miracle happens New Zealand is looking to another three years of a National-Act government. There is time for a change, but it is running out quickly.

  25. ianmac 25
    23 February 2014 at 8:58 pm

    Note the 11% undecided. Seems a lot?

    • RedBaronCV 25.1
      23 February 2014 at 9:07 pm

      About three times the usual

    • bad12 25.2
      23 February 2014 at 9:59 pm

      Good point,a lot depends on how the pollsters frame the questions to those prepared to respond, of course if you were planning on having a fiddle with the outcome after the poll had been taken the ‘undecided’ column would be a good place to start…

    • Skinny 25.3
      23 February 2014 at 11:00 pm

      It is alot, what that means is of the 11% there are plenty of voters not happy with National and are holding out to see what policies come out from Labour. You can count on NZF voters not wanting a National deal done.

      The Greens are losing cred by both the Dotcom support and Norman has soiled his previous good work by engaging in a silly tussle with God Botherer Collin Craig. The Greens are better off keeping their head down and remaining silent, coming out when they have sensible things to say. People voted NZF last election because Peters is a one man wrecking ball. Look for Winston to come out boxing and trim National back in popularity. A scandal exposing Key, further slamming the assets sale with the GE sale and the aftermath with price hikes, and the total costs of the ticket clippers from across the ditch.

      Once the interest rates start to climb and China clips Nationals wings with a strategic drop in bidding for our milk powder causing the price to slump. China will not be happy with Key and his sucking up to Uncle Sam. The TPPA is heavy weighted in the Yanks favour and we are in China’s part of the globe, we are going to get a sharp reminder of this very soon.

  26. Scott1 26
    23 February 2014 at 9:29 pm

    James,
    I don’t think anti foreign companies is quite the right way to approach that for a major party. It works better in the hands of Winston and he will just out xenophobe you.

    I think instead you can just focus on Big corporations, in particular dodgy advertising but also other practices.
    The pitch can be a much stronger and much more aggressive commerce commission. Find some illegal stuff then say you need broarder laws to catch the similar but marginally legal activities.

    In the same theme one could go after tax loopholes etc. Maybe use closing them as revenue source in a way that will catch the public’s attention.

    In terms of all the normal policies – the 2 key things for labour to win is

    1) for it to sell itself as being responsible party of government – So it needs to look fiscally responsible to the public – more so as often as possible than national. (eg push the super issue as a cost).

    2) It also needs to distance itself from the Greens and sell the idea that it can control the greens. Because the swing voters fear greens.

  27. Jim Nald 27
    24 February 2014 at 3:04 pm

    Hmm .. am not sure what Labour will really stand for and what next will happen with maintaining the entitlement age for super, given that the new ACT leader is now pushing for the increase.

    John Key and National’s dirty work already being done by ACT … and David Parker?

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1402/S00327/australia-faces-reality-while-new-zealand-ignores-it.htm