David Parker is pushing for a retirement age to go to 67.
I don’t think this will be an election winner. It certainly won’t help youth employment.
How about doing something more courageous, like means-testing?
Which it isn’t. It’s thinking which is locked inside the current neoliberal monetary framework and further evidence of why Labour is simply a centrist, fiscally orthodox party.
We can afford super to stay at 65 simply by having the government print $20M per week and putting it into the Cullen Fund.
Instead, the Labour Party’s proposal is to make people work longer for profit hungry capitalists, struggling with low paying jobs which are not there.
The fact that the UK Tory party wants to raise their retirement age too is just the icing on the cake.
Tinfoilhat, there is a negligible effect within the economy of ‘printing’ 20 million dollars a week, especially when such monies are in effect locked up to appear in the economy years away from that actual printing,
Interestingly,or not, the IMF in it’s initial report to Slippery’s National Government advised them to consider ‘printing money’ to bridge the negative effects of the Global Financial Crisis as opposed to borrowing the billions of dollars it so far has,
The 100–300 million dollars a week which was the negative effect of the GFC, if printed by the current Government would have had the effect of lowering the value of the NZ dollar, a good point for the countries exporters but not so good as far as imported goods are concerned,
Probably the most widely felt effect of this would have occurred at the petrol pump as a lower kiwi dollar value would have meant across the board fuel cost rises which would then have fed through into other costs to the consumer,
Putting aside the Green issue of the need to use less fossil fuels for the moment, the Government could have simply nullified this negative effect by printing a slightly larger amount of dollars than actually needed to cover the effects of the GFC and using that little extra to cover the cost simply lowered the fuel taxes which it collects equating to a 1/3 of the cost of fuel at the pump…
Thanks for the feedback – I agree that it would have been better to take the approach you suggest, along with reversing the tax cuts at the higher end.
Tinfoilhat, a large YES to the reversal of the tax cuts in the high end of the earnings scale which if accomplished along with ‘money printing’ instead of ‘money borrowing’ would have had the Government running a large surplus by now,
The added pluses would have been an export sector recording even greater profits off of the back of a devalued dollar,(and an even higher tax take accruing to the Government),
As stated above imported goods would become more expensive again off of the back of a devalued dollar which would result from printing money, the upside to this of course is that much of what we now import can be manufactured here so there would be some incentive to do so…
$20M per week injected into the Cullen fund is more than enough to keep super at 65, probably beyond the year 2100, and that is the reason you do it at that level.
In other words, you fit the solution to the problem and size the budget needed appropriately, in order to achieve your goals and your social values. Its really simple.
This is what a country run by politics for society looks like, instead of a country run by orthodox economics.
The Cullen Fund buys international securities using NZ $. It trades NZ $ for US $ and other currencies to buy those securities.
What happens when suddenly the $NZ is worth less because of your money printing? Do you start propping it up by $22M/week? What about when other countries refuse to take our currency any more?
What is the difference between Westpac “printing” 100 million into buying houses, and the Government “printing” 100 million to put solar cells on houses, for example.
Apart from the fact that the solar cells have a return, which pays back the cost over time, making us richer, while the bank loan simply pushes up prices, and charges interest, which disappears offshore, and makes us all poorer.
Firstly, you speak of the NZD being worth less (as opposed to being “worthless”) as if it is a problem. It’s not. If it dropped in value by 20% to US70c a lot of manufacturers and ex pat Kiwis returning home would be very happy, for instance.
Secondly, almost every central bank in the world big and small has been manipulating their currency supply through various means. We’re simply too naive for words.
Thirdly, people all over the world need and want our dairy protein. To buy it they require NZD. We also have a productive economy which exports other products and sells valuable property using NZD. People want to buy NZ farms, they don’t want to buy farms in Zimbabwe. Hence demand for NZD ain’t going away any time soon.
Hint: we’re not China or the US. Different rules for the big guys.
Yes that is true, so we need to play smarter and faster, sometimes alongside the big boys, sometimes away on the sidelines.
Westpac lends the money and takes security over the houses. If the loans don’t get paid back, with interest, it takes the houses. It tries very hard to only lend the money to people it think can pay it back, because it would prefer not to own houses (if it did, it’d just buy them itself). Westpac doesn’t lend money to any bum that walks in the door, or lend the money on just any shack.
The difference between that, and the government, is that there’s no risk, penalty, or limit on the government printing money. It can choose to print $20M a week. Or $22M. Or $42M. or $402M. There’s nothing really stopping it from printing as much as it wants.
@ CV: If the NZ$ dropped 20%, we’d see a spike in inflation. Similarly printing money itself is inflationary.
Probably not a great idea to talk about Zimbabwe when you’re talking about printing money. Also Zimbabwe no longer has its own national currency as a result of their money printing.
Or. We could just reverse some of the 7 tax cuts the wealthy have had since 1984.
Then we can afford, super, infrastructure, education and regional development, just as we did in the past.
What we cannot afford is the wealthy going on Hawaii holidays and financial gambling.
Kiwisaver and other private sector funds are likely to crash long before we really need them. And if they don’t all the retired people spending it into the economy at the same time will run up against resource constraints. Unless we, tax and spend, to build capability now
We can balance the books without the eed for Austerity from a Labour government!!!!!
“Balancing the (government) books” is NOT a virtue!!!
In a country with a persistent current account deficit like NZ, it’s in fact crucial NOT to balance the books, because doing so will guarantee dramatic losses out of worker incomes, household savings and SME profitability.
Yet another blind follower who centres all the issues of taxing the wealthy by paye tax scales. No wonder nz is troubled, divided and rule allow in fighting between the workers. Even those who some may consider to be earning obscene salaries still paye the highest marginal tax rate. How about how and where wealth is concentrated or created at the detriment to nz inc. or how different mechanisms are put into place to allow some to take advantage of what the state offers yet contribute nothing ?
Find out who the “real enemy” of nz inc/the state and place structures into effect to capture their contribution to nz. E.g. As a small token Nat did eliminate the stupidity of allowing depreciation to be deducted off an appreciating rental/investment property. But there are plenty of other areas that can be attacked.
Since when did I advocate ‘only’ changing PAYE tax scales?
I’ve talked about wealth taxes, FTT, CGT and land taxes, and various other ideas, including getting rid of the grossly regressive and locally anti-stimulatory, GST.
There is a preoccupation of high earners getting of in paying their fair taxes, and that this is assisted by various govts lowering threshold rates.
From your comment that I was responding to there was IMO a continuation of this. I don’t tr#ll through contributors to see what their history is, but will follow a thread to get a feel of how their commentary has evolved or been fleshed out by further comments. If a responses or comment I have made is either from a misunderstanding or I have missed the context I would appreciate a response in pointing out my error.
Sorry having issues with connections and hardware !!!
I did not see any references to your comments regarding extending or widening the tax base. Just your reference regarding the 7 tax cuts, which I took to mean that your only option was to increase the tax take to pay for increased spending.
It’s neither courageous nor responsible. What it is is putting the boot into people who’ve done manual labour all their lives.
Want courageous and responsible? Go for a Universal Income high enough to maintain a decent living standard and tax the bejeezus out of the rich. Continuing to kowtow to the rich is what’s causing all the suffering in NZ and the world.
In the last 30 years it became “courageous and responsible” for wealthy privileged white males in positions of power to smash the shit out of the working class, the underclass, and those in poverty – those who are of course typically disempowered, less educated and coloured.
What a load of amoral shite we’ve been swallowing as a society, thanks to our so-called “leaders.”
Well past time for our politicians to remember Matthew 25 and caroing for ‘the least of these.’
Exactly, that’s 3 of us here at the Standard thinking exactly the same thing this morning, Act have just come out announcing that they favor raising the age of Superannuation entitlement so we know that the policy of raising the age to 67 is part of the Neo-Liberal hangover,
amirite, you are right, if there is one impediment to Labour winning the 2014 election it is this one policy of raising the age of entitlement and my impression is at the least it is a 2% vote loser for Labour,
My view, Labour need back away from the policy NOW and with maximum publicity, sure Labour will cop a bit of negative publicity in the form of ”its a policy U-turn” etc etc, But, such an announcement need canvass the idea that Something HAS to be done surrounding the Superannuation issue with ‘means testing’ being firmly put as one of the options that has to be explored,
While there might be that initial burst of negative publicity those who have departed Labour over this issue, and i would suggest here that 2% of the voters might be the soft number and the reality is more likely to be 2–5%, will have been given a reason to return to the Labour fold,
i suggested back in 2011 that Phill Goff campaigning during that election on this very issue of raising the age of entitlement for super cost Labour 2% and the election and i do not resile from that belief,
i will go further this election and bluntly state that Labour will continue to be the Opposition until at least 2020 unless this policy is dropped, THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES, my preference IF change is needed, and i do not believe that Labour have put forward a narrative that successfully argues that need,would be for a means tested Superannuation which i think most would, given the options, believe to be a fair system of delivering future retirement income,
If David Cunliffe want’s to be the next Prime Minister of New Zealand then i would strongly suggest that the current Labour Party Superannuation Policy is the one major policy that will stop Him gaining that position…
amirite, you are right, if there is one impediment to Labour winning the 2014 election it is this one policy of raising the age of entitlement and my impression is at the least it is a 2% vote loser for Labour,
Myself and others at Conference last year made similar points. Unfortunately the majority of the membership went happily along with the MPs.
Make that 4 of us here at the Standard this morning who see Labour’s raising the age of superannuation entitlement to 67 as an election loser???,
i am surprised that the ‘thinkers’ in the Labour Party,(there must be a few surely), did not identify this policy flogged by Phill Goff leading into the 2011 election as the cause of at least 2% of the vote having deserted Labour,
Anyone nearing the age of entitlement will have taken note of Slippery the Prime Minister’s promise not to raise the age of entitlement, and, the not insignificant fact that this is probably the one thing the PM,(besides the tax switch),has not blatantly LIED about nor fudged with some meaningless drivel about what the promise actually meant,
And, voted accordingly,
Ask anyone involved in the workforce in a Labouring type activity for most of their working life at which point their bones can no longer support such manual labour and most will tell you that once they hit 50 it is all downhill from there as far as ability goes,(my bones crapped out way earlier but then i was on the shovel mixing the concrete for house foundations at 14),
So for the manual labourers, those who provide the actual sweat in the economy even 65 is a long wait for an actual retirement and it is these workers who will be the most negatively effected by raising the age to 67,
i would tho suggest that it is ‘across the board’ of the broad electorate that Labour has lost a sizable slice of support,(2–5%), because of this one policy and the need is for the Party to back away from it Now and with the maximum amount of publicity along with a promise to fully canvass all the options in it’s first term of Government…
I was highly annoyed when this proposed policy was being discussed and critiqued for alterations, and voted on for surpport at our LEC. I could not believe it was being supported and carried, I voted against ‘for the record’. My biggest concern were for the blue collar workers many who struggle to live to 65 let anlone having to carry on working on the tools a further2 years. Though people put the argument up if your unfit you will still be able to go on a benefit. I also thought of the young who are shut out of jobs because babyboomers wont call it a day. The impact of robotics & computerisation will see 50% of jobs lost for workers in less than 20 years anyway.
I think ‘means’ testing is a must, I know a billionaire who is probably claiming a pension by now. How the hell can this happen? What I paid my taxes so I’m entitled to be paid back by way of a pension? This is the attitude of too many wealthy people, no offense to babyboomers but some in this group need to get real and think of the following generations.
I don’t like raising the age of retirement past 65 either, and in some cases it should be at 60, those on the old invalid benefit particularly, considered for this.
You are forgetting, or never learned, about the policy reasons for universal benefits. For the old age pension called superannuation, it is that there is equality of pension, everyone is entitled, the wealthy are getting the same now they are wealthy as they would had they suffered bad financial losses earlier. And there is no stigma to getting it.
At one time when you received charity as an old person, you were looked down on like a beggar. If you had no relative or patron that would or could maintain and house you were sent to finish your existence in the poorhouse with probably an Oliver-like existence of mean conditions, austerity and discomfort.
But CV is right. The return to that thinking of expansion of the good life for the wealthy with financial systems underpinning it, but for the poor a drawing in of purse strings, and ultimately a poorhouse mentality that excludes the old person from enjoyment of life by constantly raising the retirement age is harsh and deliberately wilful ignorance of alternatives.
One way to help the country progress, is for retired people to volunteer for about 15 hours a week, from a number of activities that assist their local Council, environmental, social, reading recovery, tourist assistance etc. Their productivity would be high as the cost would be low. And NZ would benefit. They would also. And the hours would lessen as they aged or were less fit.
Housing would be available that would be simple and suitable and valued annually starting at historical cost then just adding annual administration and maintenance charges each year plus whatever the CPI inflation rate was. With the profit taken from it, the Council could provide low-priced dwellings at a rent that covered all costs and was no burden on the rates. Without the profit, house inflation, and selling agents’ fees, a slew of costs are avoided. So more for the oldies, and sufficient money for a comfortable life with extras results.
It also fucks me off that Labour MPs, who are on high incomes, generous super plans and excellent Kiwi Saver schemes, would have the nerve to be taking money out of communities by cutting back super eligibility, all the while ignoring the massive excess labour pool/under-employment problem the nation is facing.
And yes I think that the policy will cost Labour up to 2% support, and confirms further to non-voters that the current Labour Party is full of clever intellectuals who have no idea of life in the real world where you don’t get employers handing over 20% top ups into your KiwiSaver scheme.
While he gave the impression he paid his share of taxes in Australia. That didn’t appear to be the case in NZ. I knew his TB breeding operation in New Zealand was one big tax loophole. I knew of the former IRD man who worked the fiddle. There were plenty of rich listers milking that cow till it got closed out. Trouble is they just move on to the next rort, the majority all use colourful accounting practices. Shrilland could testify to that one!
Yeah… blue leopard, you know what Labour Conferences are like. If the MPs tell you to be lemmings and walk over the cliff with them then the delegates will…
The cynic in me says that Labour are only pushing the age increase to hold an opposing position in an attempt to embarrass John Key.
It’s hardly a policy to benefit their core constituency what’s a low wage manual worker going to do at 65? Go on the sickness benefit? Get heckled by Winz? plenty struggle to make 65 as it is….
amirite-agreed, the raising of the retirement age to 67 is a significant vote loser. Parker seems to be blinkered on this.
It should be noted that the German Social Democrats, in their grand coalition deal with Merkel* just before Christmas, forced Merkel to drop her policy of raising the retirement/pension age to 67 and change it to a policy where it is possible to retire at 63 (if you have contributed for 45 years) rising to a retirement/pension age of no later than 65. Some details are here:
It should be noted that the new policy (63-65) has widespread support among the German people (see article). Labour should change its policy to something similar, and fast.
Raising the age to 67 is also a barrier to a deal with Winston.
*unfortunate deal this-why didn’t they go with the Greens?
I don’t blame Labour for standing by this move. In terms of current fiscal policy, it is the responsible thing to do. National is being extremely cynical by refusing to address the issue, and just kicking it down the line for a future government to handle.
While I can understand the criticism here about the change in the age of Super entitlement, I think a lot of the reasoning behind this is pie-in-the-sky. Sure it is possible to raise taxes or print money to keep the Super age as it is, but I doubt these ideas would really get a lot of support among the general voting population. The only other option is to do what National is doing and that is simply irresponsible.
Fiscal policy responsibility? Seems like you are forgetting that the government exists for the benefit and wellbeing of the people. The people don’t exist to work for the govt, but raising the super entitlement age treats them exactly as if they do (or treats some classes of them).
And you seem to be forgetting that the government has to raise the money from somewhere to pay for the increased costs of super, be it raising taxes, cutting services or printing money, yet I doubt these suggestions will be well accepted by many voters.
And why not ask them. Why ask the country if they would rather use those other means of paying for super, or just keep putting the age up (it’s not like it’s going to stop at 67 right?). Use that as an opportunity to educate people about the various options we have for managing how we pay for things in this country instead of just reinforcing TINA and neoliberalism.
Keep it at 65 and reintroduce estate taxes above a certain level. That way even the billionaire who gets it then has to cough up out of his estate, while the less wealthy get to preserve their wealth. Reverses trickle up.
Agree with amirite. It may be the right thing to do, but it definitely isn’t a politically clever thing to do.
I wish our current caucus were around in the 1970s. Phil Goff knows was around then so should remember what happened. Muldoon’s storm to victory in 1975 was entirely due to his massive superannuation bribe which we have been paying the price for ever since. He pandered to the greed of the middle aged and they voted en bloc for National.
Some sort of means testing is a far better way to go. In time it could be morphed into a later retirement age when people have latched on to the fact they are not going to diddled out of their entitlements.
It seems sometimes that each generation of Labour parliamentarians are destined to make the same mistakes as the previous. Greywarbler suggested a few days ago that some of us old hands should be approached by Labour’s strategy team and give them account of our knowledge and experiences. That would be a good idea but it won’t happen because each generation thinks they’re cleverer than the last.
Mark my words. A big push by Labour to arbitrarily lift the retirement age will kill them later this year!
Edit: having now read the comments I see I’m in good company.
Anne
I agree that this – raising the super age to 67 and beyond – (goody-goody little responsible Labour prostrating itself to old-time financial norms and motifs) would tilt the vote from its present upward rising angle.
And about Muldoon’s offer of old age benefits. They were too high and unaffordable so later had to be revised, but women preferred to go with Muldoon more because the Labour one as proposed by economic textbook reader Roger Douglas, was to be a payment based on earnings. And women at that time were very aware that they were discriminated against in the earnings tables, in employment opportunities, and were large in general poverty statistics. They would just continue into their old age in the same straitened circumstances they had always been kept in by The System called patriarchal and very male-oriented, not like now of course!
So looking at the whole issue on acceptance of Muldoon’s proposition rather than that of Douglas, changes the view slightly just as understanding the concept of universality and why the wealthy get the same super as the poor changes perceptions of that policy.
I kinda liked the idea of making super dependent on how long you have been paying taxes and means testing if affordability is an issue in the future. Early retirement should considered as an option for people who have had physical work most of their lives.
What would happen to someone made redundant at 55? They’d get a lot of experience with officious little twits at WINZ offices sending them on employment courses, teaching them how to write CVs, and cutting their benefits every now and then. Purely to help them into employment of course. Because Dr. Aylward says that being on a benefit is as bad as being a heroin addict.
Why the hell does some neoliberal Rogernome fool that’s sneaked his way into the Labour Party think older people need two more years of this treatment? I find it hard to believe someone so bloody stupid wants to be in government, and find it even harder to think what use having him there would be.
Is this just politics? Key says it is staying at 65 so Parker wants to raise a point of difference.
Every leftie should let their local Labour MP or candidate know this form of austerity is not acceptable for a left leaning Labour Party.
It is outrageous that they would attempt to balance the books by cutting social welfare entitlements. This is the kind of bullshit that Ruth Richardson would be proud of.
We can abalnce the books without austerity. It involves taxing those that have robbed the worked of this country for the past 30 years.
Soon people are going to want to work past 65 anyway, the whole idea of hitting that age and going out to pasture is thinking from 50 years ago.
A lot of boomers are hitting 60 and their careers are peaking, they’re not going to shut up shop in 5 years.
Labour just need to back up raising the retirement age with robust help for people who can’t work into their 60s and 70s due to the nature of their jobs/health/life.
Soon people are going to want to work past 65 anyway, the whole idea of hitting that age and going out to pasture is thinking from 50 years ago.
True but that just means that a Universal Income with no superannuation fits even better.
A lot of boomers are hitting 60 and their careers are peaking, they’re not going to shut up shop in 5 years.
But most are are hitting 60 and finding that they can’t work any more due to physical disability caused by their working.
Labour just need to back up raising the retirement age with robust help for people who can’t work into their 60s and 70s due to the nature of their jobs/health/life.
And get into the same problem that targeted benefits have always caused – massive attacks from the greediest and ever increasing amounts of administration that will achieve sweet FA. Just as we’re seeing now from this government against beneficiaries – beneficiaries that exist solely because this government runs policies that ensure 6% or more unemployment so as to keep wages low.
One partially vaccinated the remainder not vaccinated.
Now can you answer my first question as to the relevance of your initial comment in this thread ?
Thanks, and I know I was being a bit of a pain, but its good to have a professional like yourself give details which the news did not report.
My inital comment was around my expectation that the MMR vaccination almost always gives less than 95% protection against exposure to measles, and possibly way less.
The numbers you suggest in this latest incident suggest that the protective ability of the vaccination was actually very high at this particular school at this particular time, although it is not possible to tell without knowing the exact numbers of vaccinated and unvaccinated in the school.
“My inital comment was around my expectation that the MMR vaccination almost always gives less than 95% protection against exposure to measles, and possibly way less.”
Your expectation is incorrect 2 doses of the current MMR vaccine as per the MoH guidelines (15 months and 4 years) will provide an immunity level to Measles at close to 99% even a single dose at 12-15 months will provide immunity to over 90% of recipients.
If you have no immunity to measles and come into contact with the live virus you have around an 80% chance (from memory) of becoming ill
I guess that you have all heard the latest report. I think school was Lakeland High School. As I remember 8 cases were from children entering school from overseas and then there were further who caught from the original eight. I think that they are checking 700 people in the Auckland area.
Do we need to have a compulsory measles vaccine plus for any other common nasty on those coming to the country? It is very expensive for us to fight off these events. When you go overseas you have to comply with health requirements and get yellow fever jabs etc. What about having that here? Why not?
Seeing that we don’t feel friendly to people who bring in diseases from their country of origin, I don’t see that immigrants would be worse off from having compulsory vaccination. If they want to come here, they still will choose to do so. The vaccinations would have to be given under optimum health requirements, ie when the person is not already sick with something else. I understand that the virus doesn’t work well then.
It’s not enough to go around with good, happy, positive thoughts about things, these are not efficacious against disease McFlock. Action for protection is required using human intelligence, not just responding to problems with spurious reasons for retaining wishful thinking and doing nothing. Tourists who get sick, get lost, actually cost us more money than they bring in. We don’t want them introducing disease, and there is no reason why we could not insist upon vaccination when considered advisable.
at 2.5mil visitors a year, it’s probably just cheaper to make sure we’re vaccinated, rather than processing vaccination confirmation slips for everyone – then having an nzer go visiting elsewhere and bringing something back (either unvaccinated or 1% where it didn’t take).
For sure McFlock but that is looking at cheapness etc. not whether it is a good idea that would be beneficial to us. Immigrants are future residents, and deserve to be cared for against disease outbreaks, just as we deserve to be protected against any serious ones they are likely to bring with them. That would be beneficial to us all. Tourists may have to be treated or barred if coming from a high-risk area or there is an outbreak of a problematic disease.
And quoting an exception indicates a rule doesn’t it? A NZr returning with something – that’s always a possibility. But not a certainty. And no reason to throw one’s hands in the air and say it’s not perfect – we can’t do anything.
My point is that making vaccination mandatory for immigrants as a visa requirement is redundant, because they are not the only vector. Doubtful even a significant one. And their numbers are too low to impact on herd immunity. So it can wait until they arrange primary healthcare providers..
yup…my son was vaccinated for mumps and whooping cough……and got both…
imo .this in fact is dangerous ( just like kids being vaccinated for meningitis) because it lulls parents and kids ( and their bodies ) into a false sense of security and they are not on the look out for the virus…which may actually be more severe because it has mutated
….measles mutates (from a medical book a doctor loaned me…if i remember correctly….. some university students in the USA have been vaccinated 4x for measles and they still contract different strains…and some of them are more severe than if they had had the virus naturally as a kid
……meningitis has at least 40+ different strains
…getting the wild variety of measles without vaccination…actually immunises you for life
i am not against all vaccines or vaccinations however
One concern is that the skills to managing measles and other similar communicable diseases get lost from the community. I’m in my late 40s, so had measles, mumps and rubella naturally as a child. My siblings all did too. Mum and Dad knew what to do to help us recover, as did most of their peers. I would guess that those skills are pretty much lost outside of the communities that don’t vaccinate intentionally.
The other issue of course is poverty. By all means make vaccines available and accessible, but for gods sake look at the role that standard of living plays in disease and how changing that affects all diseases.
vaccination should be a choice ….and if i were living in a poor overcrowded situation with 5 kids …i would be vaccinating for everything….it really is the easy way out in the short term….but long term consequences are unknown and side effects are not catalogued….it is great for health departments and governments who can not or will not address poverty
.and if i were living in a poor overcrowded situation with 5 kids …
And vaccinations are least effective in the poor living in poor conditions with insufficient nutrition. A compromised immune system is compromised, no matter what drugs you pump it with.
Well that’s not what the University of Virginia Health System reckons
Researchers followed children in Dhaka, Bangladesh, from birth to one year, trying to solve a mystery: Why are oral polio vaccines only about half as effective in developing countries as they are in the U.S.?
They observed some similar circumstances when the vaccine failed: Those children had had two or more episodes of diarrhea, were malnourished or were weaned early.
UVA infectious disease researcher William Petri Jr., MD, PhD, who collaborated with an international team on this project, said the children with two or more episodes of diarrhea were twice as likely to fail polio vaccination. “While our observations need to be validated and extended at other regions of the developing world, they are encouraging to me as they suggest that very simple interventions, such as promoting exclusive breastfeeding, can improve vaccination and hasten eradication of polio,” he said.
“And vaccinations are least effective in the poor living in poor conditions with insufficient nutrition. A compromised immune system is compromised, no matter what drugs you pump it with.”
I’m not going to agree with that one CV. People with poverty compromised immunity don’t usually have the resources to manage illnesses when they happen, so are much more at risk from serious complications. Doubly so (compromised immunity, lack of resources).
In NZ there is also the issue of whether Maori and Pacific Islanders have adapted to the diseases that are relatively recent in evolutionary terms. I don’t know what work has been done on that, but I think those communities have the right to make their own decisions.
In the absence of fixing poverty, I think give people a wide range of information, and the tools and resources that give them choice (vaccinations and alternatives). Then let those families and communities decide.
I thought there was an inference of something following on from Chooky’s comment, but reading it again I can see there probably isn’t. Sorry bout that.
Oh look here’s something else – rotavirus vaccine appears to be much less effective in developing countries with poorer populations, than in developing countries.
And you use this link as an argument against vaccines?
-_-
The dumb, it burns. It may show decreased efficacy in developing rather than developed nations but a pooled efficacy in developing nations of 51% when talking a disease that causes 500,000 deaths per year is not to be fucking sneezed at.
I’m not playing that game dude. I saw how you interacted with CV at the start of this conversation and I can’t be bothered. Engage genuinely and I will too.
Because idiot parents who swallowed the flawed conclusion of a study that found a link between measles vaccine and autism. The study has been proven wrong but the damage is lasting..
Here, this article will explain this First world problem better than I ever could:
If I had children I would choose to not vaccinate them for measles (assuming we weren’t in the conditions that Chook describes), and it has little to nothing to do with the MMR or autism.
Then what is your reason weka? There are some vaccines that it may be arguable that their effects are negligible and potentially not worth the expense, but in the case of the MMR vaccine, I have yet to hear a valid argument against it.
I tire of the vaccination debate because it so completely encompasses the stupidity of selectively choosing which scientific results to listen to.
When people on the left doubt vaccinations or fluoridation, I just shake my head. We’re the politics that embrace knowledge and science, not superstition and ignorance.
There’s very little difference between a vaccination-sceptic/fluoride-sceptic and a climate change denier.
All of them ignore science and cling to some primeval human fear that doesn’t deal with evidence.
The reason that a lot of countries don’t fluoridate is because it occurs naturally in a higher quantify than in New Zealand.
Before I moved here, my dentist in the UK told me “you’ve got to be careful because the water in New Zealand is too -pure-. If they’re not adding fluoride, you’re going to need to do it yourself.”
Which is fine. I’m fine with adding it myself. People in lower income families might struggle to do that. Anti-fluoride is adversely affecting the worst off in our society.
So maybe don’t call yourself left-wing or liberal anymore.
The thing I really love about flouridation is that the only demonstrated side-effect of flouride in water at <1ppm (dental fluorosis, usually white patches on teeth) occurs at higher rates in non-fluoridated areas of NZ than in fluoridated areas. As well as decay rates being higher.
Which suggests that water fluoridation is the safest way to provide that essential nutrient.
“All of them ignore science and cling to some primeval human fear that doesn’t deal with evidence.”
The thing that really bothers me is that the people who believe that science is the only true way to understand something, then go and apply such ridiculous logic. If you think that all people who don’t want to vaccinate their kids are anti-science or ignorant of science, then you really have little understanding of the communities that choose to not vaccinate and probably shouldn’t be expressing an opinion about them. I can understand your frustration because the anti-vac websites do often come across as scientifically illiterate and rabid with it, but you can’t extrapolate that to the whole population. Further, there is plenty of bullshit happening on the ‘we must vaccinate everyone’ side, and I suspect you are blind to that because of your ideology.
What do you think are the main reasons that parents choose not to vaccinate ?
The main reasons i’ve come across in no particular order are..
Religious/spiritual reasons
Fear of vaccination side effects
Belief in natural immunity
Medical reason preventing immunisation
Belief that there is no need to vaccinate
Forget to have it done
If we just look at the people that choose from an informed place (so leave out people that forget, don’t have access, religious prohibition etc), then I would say that most of the people I know made the choices because of a range of the following (in no particular order)
they don’t believe that vaccinations don’t have adverse affects on overall health.
they are concerned about adverse reactions.
they believe that illnesses like measles are normal childhood events
that having measles creates a challenge for the immune system that is important for lifelong health, and that if you avoid all illness you compromise immunity/health.
they believe that being ill is a normal part of life and that it’s not possible to make the world completely safe, nor is it desirable to try.
they believe that reductionist science is not the only way of understanding the world and tend to have a much broader understanding of health care models than most GPs.
I would add that I can’t think of anyone I know who chose to not vaccinate who didn’t also take other measures with regards to protecting their child’s health ie not vaccinating is not a passive process.
Many parents I know who have chosen to not vaccinate also make the decision on a case by case basis, depending on the vaccine, and the issues involved in that particular illness.
One or two out of every 1,000 children infected with measles will get pneumonia or meningitis and die, it could be your child or your niece, so tough? Is the risk of not vaccinating them worth it?
There are children that can not be vaccinated for physiological reasons and that’s fine, but all others have no reason to risk the lives of their children when prevention is at hand.
“One or two out of every 1,000 children infected with measles will get pneumonia or meningitis and die, it could be your child or your niece, so tough? Is the risk of not vaccinating them worth it?”
You are assuming that it’s not possible to prevent those two kids getting ill by other means.
I said, “I would add that I can’t think of anyone I know who chose to not vaccinate who didn’t also take other measures with regards to protecting their child’s health ie not vaccinating is not a passive process”. So no, it’s not just a case of tough.
“You are assuming that it’s not possible to prevent those two kids getting ill by other means.”
Do you know of some other means from preventing Measles amongst someone who has not be immunised or had the disease previously – apart from the obvious method of keeping them isolated from anyone who is infectious ?
I wasn’t talking about preventing measles. Amirite implied that complications like pneumonia or meningitis are inevitable in those two children referred to. I’m saying that there are other factors at play in addition to the measles infection and the bacteria, where interventions can be used.
Thanks for that, it’s an interesting list and IMO stays more about my profession and public health in general inability to communicate the benefits and risks of vaccination amongst all the other information that people are bombarded with these days.
Nope. I’m of the generation that was making these decisions before the internet. I have a pretty good understanding of the medical and public health issues involved in the pro-vaccination argument, and I even agree with some of it. Many of the people that I know who don’t vaccinate their kids are also well informed about what the pro- arguments are.
“Many of the people that I know who don’t vaccinate their kids are also well informed about what the pro- arguments are.”
Well no they’re not otherwise they wouldn’t come up with such counterintuitive, spurious and frankly incorrect reasons against immunisation such as those you’ve listed.
“they believe that illnesses like measles are normal childhood events” <– it is thinking like this that means that we were nearly at the point of eradicating measles and now it is making a comeback so that childhood suffering can once again be enjoyed by all.
The same has now happened with smallpox. We thought we had it beaten, now it is back. What next – polio? That’s a normal childhood illness right? Just sucks for those that end up on iron lungs (or modern equivalent) – but that’s all part of childhood.
The stupidness of the “normal childhood events” argument makes my head hurt because if we can prevent disease, we should. It improves the health of our community and greatly increases the prospects for the lower classes of society because their children spend less time sick and have more energy/development available for attempts at social mobility.
As someone on the left, highly successful vaccines represent one of the greatest advancements of medical science in the past 100 years for evening out the playing field somewhat.
Best to do both. Because it might go bad for a small percentage, but it fucks them up badly. Because while we work on the “maybes” (maybe Saturn’s orbit has something to do with their chi), 4 kids a year die and dozens are hospitalised.
Actually, they have both been combated by vaccines and for the majority (as CV states) the polio virus didn’t have a serious effect – but for those that did suffer from it, it was crippling. In the time period prior to the vaccine for it being developed, it was considered a normal childhood illness, who are you to suddenly be arbitrator of what is a normal childhood illness and what isn’t? What are your criteria? The only criteria I am using is “can you get this illness as a child”…
In the not too distant past it was also ‘normal’ for a relatively high percentage of women to die during childbirth and for a relatively high number of children to not make it past their childhood.
What gets me with folk like Zorr and CV is that they (I assume – I stand corrected if this is wrong) rightly deride climate change deniers for ignoring the science, yet do exactly the same with vaccinations.
What is the difference? I think because vaccines are a product of science (and pharmaceuticals companies) they fear or do not understand. Whereas climate change is caught up in fossil fuels use which they think is eveil as a matter of course.
Anyway whatever it is scary.
northshoredoc – I admire your persistence but you might consider giving up – you will get nowhere 🙂
I don’t think all vaccines are equal (and cost-benefit analysis does need to be done with any medical treatment) but the benefits of vaccination greatly outweighs the negatives.
There is, however, the issue of Big Pharma and that medical research should be compensated for its work but it shouldn’t be given the opportunity to extort obscene profit.
Sorry, but that is just disingenuous in the extreme. You take a phrase that I used, put it in another context and then put your own spin on it.
(I like the childbirth example though. You know what reduced mortality? Increased standard of living).
Let’s change the language then. Rate the seriousness of measles compared to polio.
“The only criteria I am using is “can you get this illness as a child”…”
Yes, that’s why you don’t understand what I wrote. But it’s not about you. I was asked to say what I thought the reasons where for some to not vaccinate. If you are really interested in understanding why intelligent, informed parents choose to not vaccinate their children, I’m happy to keep talking with you. You don’t have to agree with what I or they say, but I’m not that interested in arguing with you when you won’t even understand the basics of their decisions.
So please, enlighten me. What are they using as the basis for their decision making other than emotive reasoning?
You are the one who chooses to use measles as an example of an “ordinary childhood disease” but then, because the damage of polio is so much worse, choose to not rate that as an “ordinary childhood disease”. There is so much illness and suffering that has been avoided because of the widespread use of effective vaccines – smallpox being yet another example. What about whooping cough?
The ones that are most adversely affected by the refusal to vaccinate are also our most vulnerable.
I tend to define emotive reasoning as the decision making made by the heart as opposed to the head (if one were to still use such an archaic division). In this instance though, the anti-vaxx movement relies on evoking an emotional response to the issue rather than encouraging a well-considered review of the evidence because if they were to rely on rational reasoning, they would lose. The balance of scientific evidence is overwhelmingly on the side of vaccination but this argument continues to crop up.
It shares a lot in common with the climate denier movement as another field of science where experts continue to have to battle well-funded “think tanks” full of ideological morons that continue to endanger the population.
Ok. I think we should clear this up. I’m not part of the anti-vac movement, I’ve never had anything to do with them other than reading occassionally on websites but I have a pretty low tolerance for them so tend to stay away now. I couldn’t tell you what I think about them other than that (for instance, I’m assuming they’re not all scientifically illiterate, but I have no idea what percentage). I’m guessing that you don’t have much idea either.
Likewise, most of my generation thought these things through before the internet and while there was already an anti-vac movement in NZ by then it wasn’t something that was pushing people’s choices.
As for the heart. I don’t have a problem with people making heart decisions so long as they balance that with some evidence too. In fact there is increasing evidence that the heart is a very good mechanism for decision making in general, and that using hard cold rational thinking without any heart is just as detrimental as the other way round. The biggest point of difference I see between you and I is that seem to believe that the only valid evidence comes from hard science. That is an unscientific belief.
+1000 thanks weka …could not have put that better myself …also know very well educated people who have chosen not to vaccinate…and it is proactive and no the easy way out ( certainly not child abuse)
…as it happens I did vaccinate my children albeit delayed …….but i had a doctor who didnt believe in it!….i went against this doctor’s advice …but it was accepted with respect after i had studied quite a lot of literature ( so the medical profession is not united on this issue).
..in the end i made the decision out of some expediency because of pressure from the creche the children went to in the mornings….i still wonder if I made the right decision with my partner because my son has some signs of Aspergers
( as it happens thankfully by delaying the vaccinations we missed out on a vaccine which the govt was using which had been rejected in Hong Kong? or Singapore or Japan ? as having adverse side effects….and it had been used in those countries on older children not very little babies)
“because my son has some signs of Aspergers” – you do realize that Andrew Wakefield has now been fully discredited and exposed as a fraud and conman who was in it for the money? Who deliberately misreported and manipulated results to make his claims?
..well sorry i dont know anything about Andrew Wakefield …i am just making an observation…..and i am very grateful my doctor recommended not vaccinating him when he was a very little baby…and thank goodness it is very mild ….almost normal…in fact probably normal ….and possibly nothing to do with vaccinations….but the signs have been/are there nevertheless
i really find it quite bamboozling how some people get so irate/dogmatic /put downish/authoritarian when others express some scepticism and doubts about vaccinations for everything and everybody…talk about open minded doctors /scientists always being professionally open minded a la Karl Popper ….now that really is a myth!
….but i guess it is a multi billion dollar business and doctors do get golden handshakes for every child they vaccinate….and there are a many others with vested interests in the vaccination loop…say no more.
Do you want to know why people like myself get so irate? Because we are constantly barraged by the idiocy of “balance” – that someone who feels strongly about vaccines is given the same air time and treatment as qualified medical researchers. That Koch-funded climate change deniers get to share the air waves in the mainstream media with climate scientists that have spent the last 30-40 years studying and researching.
If you were presenting any science, then I would be sitting here open mindedly reading and clicking any little bit of info you provided. But you’re not – in your comment you made a possible link between your sons Aspergers and vaccinations – whether you know who Andrew Wakefield is or not is beside the point because that is where that little piece of misinformation has derived from.
Science asks questions and then tries to answer them through investigation and analysis. It requires an open mind. What it does not need to do though is accept every random brain fart as equally valid.
you do realize that Andrew Wakefield has now been fully discredited and exposed as a fraud and conman who was in it for the money?
You do realise that Andrew Wakefield and his publications have zero bearing on what Chooky commented about their son?
You seem to be implying because Wakefield was declared a fraud by the establishment, that Chooky must somehow be wrong in making the comment about aspergers characteristics.
Andrew Wakefield was the medical “researcher” behind the paper that originally linked ASDs and the MMR vaccine. It has now been as completely and utterly retracted as is even possible.
Show me any other peer-reviewed research that displays any link between autism spectrum disorders (like Aspergers) and vaccines? I’m happy to wait.
What’s decent research got to do with it? Decent research would actually involve being curious about self reports like Chooky’s. Not being instantly dismissive.
So if it’s not in your precious tomes, it not only doesn’t – but it can’t – exist, is what I just read from you.
That’s very clearly a kind of religious faith masquerading as science and rationality.
Anecdata can be a leap pad for further research but once disproven, should not continue to be used as such. The fact that you are unwilling to discuss Andrew Wakefield is one of the surest signs that you are ignoring the evidence.
His premise of a link between vaccines and autism has now been so thoroughly disproven during his fall from “researcher” to fraud that it gets almost as close to a proven negative that science is capable of. This is why I so immediately dismiss Chooky’s anecdote and even the anti-vaxxers that I know personally who are well-educated steer well clear of the autism link stuff these days because they are aware that even in their circles it automatically invalidates anything else they may say.
If you want the links to research disproving the linkage, I can go dig them up. But then again, you’re not that interested in science – you seem to be only interested in defining what science isn’t rather than accepting what science is.
So one bad researcher with poor or fraudulent methods, in your eyes automatically discredits everyone else who puts forward a comment about their own experience with their own children. Now these kinds of parents are either misguided, lying or just plain wrong.
You are completely ignoring what I am saying – as I expected CV. I am saying that his completely flawed study propelled other researchers to investigate – and their investigations showed the complete lack of a link.
So one bad researcher with poor or fraudulent methods, in your eyes automatically discredits everyone else who puts forward a comment about their own experience with their own children. Now these kinds of parents are either misguided, lying or just plain wrong.
He was the only researcher to get those results.
So what is the experience parents have with their children?
“A was vaccinated with B, then we noticed A had ASD, therefore B caused ASD”?
ASD is relatively common (around 150/100k in NZ). Vaccination rates are around 90%. Easily detectable effect, if it existed. But nobody has seen it. Other than a fraud selling a competing vaccine, of course.
The fact that CV thinks that a pseudonymous comment on a blog with an n=1 is an important piece of scientific information tell us all we need to know about his knowledge of science.
Because Wakefield was actually a fraud, it means that people claiming their kids might have caught an ASD because of a vaccine have exactly zero evidence to support that theory.
And yet almost every single case of measles is linked to a lack of vaccination.
Because Wakefield was actually a fraud, it means that people claiming their kids might have caught an ASD because of a vaccine have exactly zero evidence to support that theory.
Meaning I suppose no one in the establishment is interested and they can turn a blind eye.
And yet almost every single case of measles is linked to a lack of vaccination.
only sometimes, and only in some circumstances and countries, McFlock.
Meaning I suppose no one in the establishment is interested and they can turn a blind eye.
No, meaning that if someone who wasn’t trying to sell their own vaccine actually managed to demonstrate the association Wakefield “found” but without using fraudulent data, they’d be in line for the Nobel Prize and a range of other awards.
But as it is there’s no evidence and no biological theory as to why it might exist. You might as well state that you know someone who might have caught autism because of Saturn’s orbit.
Well sure. Physics is quite reductionist, for example. Biology, medicine, not so much.
Reading the rest of the list reminded me of that phrase about truth taking time to get its boots on.
The fact is some of these beliefs are just as noxious as neoliberalism. Noxious as in “deadly”. Northshoredoc is talking prudent medical good sense, but I sense their exasperation.
However, the list was written generically and vaguely enough that I have no idea what your rejection is based on. Why not address individual points and see if you even now what I was talking about?
“Well sure. Physics is quite reductionist, for example. Biology, medicine, not so much.”
It’s all relative I guess. Compare conventional western medicine to other models of medicine and it appears very reductionistic.
Life expectancy is generally related to standard of living. You improve diet, housing, sanitation etc and people live longer (partly because they don’t get infectious diseases due to improved immunity and decreased exposure). However living longer means people are more likely to have chronic illness. Western medicine isn’t that great at treating a lot of chronic illnesses, which is why one of the very common things you hear from alternative practitioners is that they get so many people who come to them once things are really bad and their doctor tells them there is nothing more to be done.
I’m not aware cross cultural comparisons of the kind you are suggesting, although they may exist. Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) is a good example of another model. It’s been in existence for thousands of years and is highly successful at what it does. But comparing it to Western medicine doesn’t really make sense to me because they serve different purposes. If I broke my leg, I would go to A and E and get xrays and painkillers and a cast. But if I had menopausal hot flushes that were ruining my life, I would go to someone like a TCM practitioner. You could then say, ok let’s do some RCTs on hot flush treatments, both western and TCM, but you are really comparing apples and oranges. Which might be a valid thing to do so long as it’s explicit that that’s what is happening.
(if I lived in China and I broke my leg, I would go to A and E and see a TCM practitioner. So there is one thing, it is possible to integrate these systems. We are just bad at it in the West).
When these arguments come up, the scienceheads want the RCT evidence alone. I prefer to also listen to the person who was suffering and whether they were helped or not. Not all evidence comes from RCTs.
Beyond that there are a whole lot of cultural issues, both western/asian, and reductionist/holistic, that are probably beyond this conversation.
“Perhaps you could point to some recent advances in traditional medicine, for example?”
There’s some really good work being done around phytotherapy and treating bacterial infections. Many plants have antibacterial properties that match antibiotics, but they don’t appear to cause bacterial resistance. Use of plants to treat bacterial infections is not new, but there are some interesting layers being added in response to MRSA etc.
…and this is different from the “reductionist” medicine that gave us digitalin, penicillin, and genetics how? You’re going to have to do better than “come up with something from the natural world” as a distinction, because physicians have been doing that forever.
The big difference between drugs and plants, with regards to treating bacterial infections, is that plants are a complex range of chemicals and drugs aren’t. This is why bacterial resistance occurs with antibiotics but doesn’t with plants. Herbalists understand this because they think about the whole plant. Scientists got the antibiotic thing right (single substance, well targeted), but then fucked it up. If they had thought about the holistic approach as well, we would have kept the antibiotics for serious situations, and used herbs for treating other, easier to resolve infections. It’s the world view of scientists* that has prevented this from happening, and instead we have squandered the amazing usefulness of antibiotics in less than a century.
*including antagonism from medical doctors towards traditional and alternative pracitioners. If you really want to understand why we ended up with this divide, research what happened to professional development of medicine in the 1800s in the US.
“Further, there is plenty of bullshit happening on the ‘we must vaccinate everyone’ side”
Incorrect.
I don’t normally advocate banning things. The Greens are so good at it. But I would simply ban all unvaccinated children attending school. They can all be home schooled.
People that don’t vaccinate their kids are irrational and they pose a danger to everyone else. They deserve to be treated the same as moon landing deniers and 911 consipiracy theorists.
People that don’t vaccinate their kids are irrational and they pose a danger to everyone else. They deserve to be treated the same as moon landing deniers and 911 consipiracy theorists.
Speaking of irrationality and complete disrespect for parents making their own choices in raising their own children, you top the list right here.
But big pharma appreciates your lobbying for more millions in tax payer dollars.
Pharma companies make very very little out of the vaccines we are discussing far more money for them in the oral treatment of chronic diseases – the argument you’re running really is a red herring.
And here’s me thinking we were discussing Measles.
I also don’t think you have any idea of the cost of a hospital you certainly wouldn’t be able to build a brand new regional hospital such as Northland base in Whangarei out of the money we spent on MeNZ B
thanks CV and Weka…you are my heroes…dont think anything more is going to come out of this discussion…however i have just thought of a very good Sci fi plot….
Nasty Parmac multnational trolls persuade the govts of the world to vaccinate all their lovely little kiddies and sweet little babies ….and when they have snatched them all out of their parents arms( because they know best) and given them the jab ….then they come after the parents with their great big injections!!!!urrrggghhhh…(.except a few wild Chooks and CVs and Wekas get away to the mountains …they have natural wild immunity of course which makes them naturally have bush intelligence and be wily and skeptical )
….in the meantime everyone who has been vaccinated has been turned into zombies….because they put some nasty stuff in the vaccines that interfered with their DNA….( piggy DNA and cow DNA …and all they go around mooing and snorting and grunting because their evolution has now been horizontally changed…and they are returning to four leggedness and developing tails and their noses and tongues are getting fatter )
….meanwhile back in the mountains a counter jab is being hatched……..( to be continued)
….bet this never sees the light of day as a bedtime story called ‘War of the Viruses’ for kiddies…bet it is regarded as very VERY irresponsible
“If you think that all people who don’t want to vaccinate their kids are anti-science or ignorant of science, then you really have little understanding of the communities that choose to not vaccinate and probably shouldn’t be expressing an opinion about them.”
Okay. There’s nothing wrong with that in principle. Nothing anti-science or ignorant of science there.
Now let’s look at your list of reasons:
“they don’t believe that vaccinations don’t have adverse affects on overall health”
Anti-science/Ignorant of science.
“they are concerned about adverse reactions”
Anti-science/Ignorant of science.
“they believe that illnesses like measles are normal childhood events”
Anti-science/Ignorant of science.
“that having measles creates a challenge for the immune system that is important for lifelong health, and that if you avoid all illness you compromise immunity/health.”
Anti-science/ignorant of science.
“they believe that being ill is a normal part of life and that it’s not possible to make the world completely safe, nor is it desirable to try.”
Anti-science/ignorant of science.
“they believe that reductionist science is not the only way of understanding the world and tend to have a much broader understanding of health care models than most GPs.”
Anti-science/ignorant of science.
You literally told me off for accusing people of being anti-science and then provided a list which was completely full of ignorance.
Look, if you want to believe what you want, fine. But don’t call yourself pro-science. And don’t judge people who do the same thing with climate change because you’re exactly the same. And don’t call yourself left-wing or liberal because attitude like these disproportionately hurt the poor more.
“they believe that reductionist science is not the only way of understanding the world and tend to have a much broader understanding of health care models than most GPs.”
Anti-science/ignorant of science.
LOL what a narrow concept of the world you hold, DG. You may as well label people who view the world differently as heretics and disbelievers lol
Let me know when you start holding your “anti-science” show trials.
Ok, here we go. You haven’t bothered to say why you think these statements are anti-science/ignorant of science, so I’ll just hazard a guess.
Now let’s look at your list of reasons:
“they don’t believe that vaccinations don’t have adverse affects on overall health”
Anti-science/Ignorant of science.
Leaving aside that me reporting the beliefs of other people doesn’t make me anti-science/ignorant of science, let’s look at the statement as is.
You calling it anti-science/ignorant of science infers that science has studied everything there is know about human health, and vaccinations. That’s simply not possible (science increases its knowledge around human health, and vaccinations all the time). But if you have some evidence that proves that vaccinations are inherently safe beyond all doubt, I would be interested. My own view is that you can’t prove such a thing one way or the other, and that the scientific method would instead look at the value of the vaccine against any known risks. Over time it could also look at the bigger picture and assess what the likelihood of impacts on health are, but I don’t know if this is being done. Do you?
“they are concerned about adverse reactions”
Anti-science/Ignorant of science.
“they believe that illnesses like measles are normal childhood events”
Anti-science/Ignorant of science.
Am going to leave this one because I don’t see how this is anything to do with science at all. It’s more a philosophy and social ethics question.
“that having measles creates a challenge for the immune system that is important for lifelong health, and that if you avoid all illness you compromise immunity/health.”
Anti-science/ignorant of science.
I would actually be very interested to see if medical science has done any work on this. Do you know?
We do know that science is now hypothesising that exposure to bacteria is part of building strong immunity (google the hygiene hypothesis if you are not familiar with this). I don’t know if there is scientific evidence with regards to viruses, other than immunity established in response to specific viruses on exposure, but it’s not anti-science to ask this. Science should be open to looking at this very question.
“they believe that being ill is a normal part of life and that it’s not possible to make the world completely safe, nor is it desirable to try.”
Anti-science/ignorant of science.
Again, this is not really anything to do with science, it’s a philosophy and ethics question. You might not like the statement, and you might even be alarmed at the raising of the question, but that you point a scornful finger and say anti-science is really just saying that “my beliefs are better than yours simply because I believe them”.
“they believe that reductionist science is not the only way of understanding the world and tend to have a much broader understanding of health care models than most GPs.”
Anti-science/ignorant of science.
AFAIK historically GPs haven’t been trained in multi-cultural models of health care, nor in alternative models. Those that have an understanding educate themselves and they are obvious compared to their colleagues who don’t. This is a pretty well known phenomenon amongst patients who are using conventional medicine alongside alternative healthcare. So the comment about GPs is not anti-science, it’s just based on observation.
Saying that the parents I know who have chosen not to vaccinate their kids all have a broad knowledge of other models is on reflection overstating the case (some do, some don’t).
If your objection is to the idea that there are other ways of understanding the world in addition to reductionist science, then again I can’t see how you could support that statement scientifically without bringing your own beliefs into it. That there are other ways of knowing doesn’t mean that reductionist science isn’t useful. It just means we have more tools in the box.
Look, if you want to believe what you want, fine. But don’t call yourself pro-science.
I don’t call myself pro-science, but I’m not anti-science either. I think science is a tool that should be evaluated constantly for where it is useful, where it is not, and where it is succeeding and where it is failing. I like science and use it a lot, but it’s not the only thing I refer to for understanding.
And consider this. Even if I were anti-science re vaccinations, how would that make me anti-science/anti-intellectual in general. Most people have blind spots. That you would make such a sweeping judgement about me based on actually very little evidence says quite a lot about your ideology.
And don’t judge people who do the same thing with climate change because you’re exactly the same.
You have yet to produce a single statement of mine that denies proven science, so I think this comparison is pretty flawed. It’s not like I’m saying that MMR causes autism and heres’s the science to prove it. That would be a closer equivalent to saying that AGW doesn’t exist.
Your assertions appear to be based on the idea that vaccinations are always safe and good for all people all the time. That is a statement of belief and philopsophy and ethics, so stop trying to make out that science can make such a claim. As I said, the parents I know tend to make judgements based on risk assessment. For instance one friend didn’t vaccinate her kids against measles, mumps, rubella etc. Both the parents were fit and healthy, had a high standard of living and access to good nutrition, health care etc, so she considered the children at low risk of complications from those illnesses. But as she had travelled internationally a lot she was really clear that if she took them overseas to places where there were more serious illness and less control over their environment she would vaccinate.
And don’t call yourself left-wing or liberal because attitude like these disproportionately hurt the poor more.
Lots of things we do disproportionately hurt the poor more. I’m willing to bet the manufacture of your computer hurt the poor more than everyone else, not to mention many other things that you do in your life. It’s a specious argument.
and in the ‘pro intellectual, pro science’ camp ? oh dear tough choice. Science is pure – no ‘personal’ issues, no agendas – just pure and clean – like pissed on snow. Science has one major flaw imo and that is the hubris of many many scientists. But oh know that means I don’t believe in gravity!!! What great military (killing) inventions are scientists coming up with today i wonder, how many experiments are being doctored to give the results wanted and needed to get the money. How would we know – we too dumb to understand – must be forcefed by whitecoated elites – oh know now I suppose i don’t believe in the big yellow thingy in the sky now.
and on a serious note – the duality of the argument is the major flaw – “i am right – you are wrong or you are wrong and i am right” – that approach has caused more shit in this world that just about anything else imo
I wonder if we did a tally what the count would be for scientists causing the death of children verses saving the lives of children – I suppose we’d have to put ethnic and other bias in there to really get the full story.
@ McFlock…you are a very simplistic thinker and therefore I would say not a good scientist
“A kid is either alive or dead.
It’s a bit difficult to avoid the duality of that”
kid either dead or alive …sure …that is how a farmer talks about sheep …it is either a dead sheep or an alive sheep.
….however you are ignoring the fact that children can die for many reasons…it may be a fully vaccinated child but its parents may smoke….contributing to causing a fatal asthma attack or chronic bronchitis or a cot death
…the parents may be booze artists and drunkenly neglect the kid …causing diseases of neglect and an undermining of the kids immune system which puts it at risks of vaccines anyway
… the parents may feed the kid coca cola instead of milk…let it run wild on the road……
Life is multi -factorial ….and i would say a kids health is ultimately the result of the parents health and the health of the local community and country…ie where there is caring and love the kid will thrive …vaccination or no vaccination
“Life is multi -factorial ….and i would say a kids health is ultimately the result of the parents health and the health of the local community and country…ie where there is caring and love the kid will thrive …vaccination or no vaccination”
“But oh know that means I don’t believe in gravity!!!”
rofl. Thanks marty 😀
“and on a serious note – the duality of the argument is the major flaw – “i am right – you are wrong or you are wrong and i am right” – that approach has caused more shit in this world that just about anything else imo”
+10000.
I kind of like these arguments because it helps me hone my thinking, but in the end it is boring when I consider how far we could go if we stepped out of that duality.
Not sure where you were going with that Chooky, but the sad fact is that there are people who believe things like the govt is trying to control populations for nefarious reasons by vaccinating them, and those people are all over the internet doing a lot of damage. It’s not something I like to joke about.
sorry weka …didnt realise others were actually talking about it on the internet and scaring themselves …..ooops!!!!!!( I think maybe i am getting bored with my other work ..and come here for light relief)
…for some reason i cant take the whole thing seriously….although I really don’t like the idea of people being forced to vaccinate against their wishes ( because if a child dies through the side effects of a vaccination …who is going to take responsibility for compensation?…not that there ever would be compensation enough
….and if it turns out in 15 years from now that people who have been vaccinated are susceptible to a certain sort of cancer or another virus which has a mortality far worse than the original virus which was protective ….who is going to pay compensation for this medical intervention/mishap down the track….?….my bet is that nobody will take responsibility…just like the misuse of antibiotics or certain drugs which have subsequently been shown to be very harmful
i would like to see accountability …particularly if people are pressurised into vaccinations
i guess most in the anti -vaccine camp…rather than being ignorant or fadist or child abusers are the ultimate sceptics
and if it turns out in 15 years from now that people who have been vaccinated are susceptible to a certain sorts of cancer which have mortality far worse than the original virus which was protective ….who is going to pay compensation for this medical mishap down the track….?….my bet is that nobody will take responsibility…just like the misuse of antibiotics or certain drugs which have subsequently been shown to be very harmful
Agreed, in that situation it would be like thalidomide or agent orange.
But then only 20 kids so far have measles, it could be 1 in 20 without more sensible parents using the vaccine.
@ McFlock…you really are paranoid about measles….i feel sorry for you…life must be very precarious
.i have had measles as a child and i think of it is a positive experience….ie my Mother’s care and concern …it was slightly dangerous…a very very high fever and uncomfortable ….. but i had a feeling afterwards that i was at one with life and i was a survivor and i was a part of life…and i know now i am immune from any wild measles mutations for life
.i have heard that in old India measles was considered a blessing….a gift from the Gods that the child had received wisdom…people were congratulated that their child had had measles
…my point is life is multi -factoral …to be embraced not shunned……..derrrh
‘……i have heard that in old India measles was considered a blessing….a gift from the Gods that the child had received wisdom…people were congratulated that their child had had measles”
Furthmore references to measles can be found from as early as the 7th century. The disease was described by the Persian physician Rhazes in the 10th century as “more dreaded than smallpox.”
Measles is still a common and often fatal disease in developing countries.
The World Health Organization estimates there were 164,000 deaths globally from measles in 2008.
….a gun pointed at your head by another human is not the same as having a natural virus ( although with the fanatical pro vacc docs around here one could get confused)
…in many ways this debate is similar to the debate about genetic modification of plants and crops…there are considerable risks ( sure you wouldnt make a better sheep farmer than a doc?)
the point was that your changed worldview was a reaction to the danger your life was in, not some amazing revelation the virus whispered to you. An asteroid impact is also “natural”, but “natural” does not mean “beneficial” or even “good”. It is what it is.
But then I don’t expect too much from someone who thinks “by” and “of” are interchangeable.
@Chooky
Bloody good selling point though for the likes of Nigel Latter – or whoever the fuck else is the latest ‘parenting expert’ is on the work-life-balanced regular gal’s Nine to Noon (apologies – I have trouble remembering her real-life name at times … Kathryn….Rinny….I did me time in the Gallery…etc).
Selling guilt might very well be the next big thing:
Oh Gawd!!!!! – I’m such a bad bad bad parent!
(No badder, badest, more baderer, no more or less experienced, no more or less expert, no more or less compassionate/concerned/involved/etc. than the next one – plus moi kuds are a betterun yours) … there are limits of course as child abuse stats will attest.
Apologies folks, but I’m a grandparent that sometimes despairs at the twttering bullshit that seems to go on sometimes. It’s becoming fucking pathetic.
(Now make sure people that you take some of that ‘free’ hand cleanser next time you enter ‘the NEW WORLD’); only swim in the open sea; never buy supermarket fruit and veges …… etc.
Oh GOD!!!! I failed! I FAILED! I vaccinated my kuds! It’s going to fucking kill them before their time! I can’t cope – now my daughter-in-law is blaming me for the slight imperfection in my grandson. God – what if he has to take fukn anti-depressants for the rest of his life …. JESUS! – what if he turns out …. err GGGAY ffs!
Poverty people!
Obesity!
Sugar
Cardio-vascular
Hep C
School tuckshops
Cold/damp housing
…….
…………….
……………………
BASHED kids FFS!
Yep …. well I live very close to a day care centre. You should hear some of the parents beating themselves up! Neurosis even….. to the extent some can’t even be left to play and discover – then collected at end of day by harassed parents throwing them in the back of SUVs without adequate restraint whilst yacking on their cellphones, and off the vroom. Meanwhile others on low incomes can’t even afford to take their kids to the doctor (let alone afford daycare whilst they flit between 2 or 3 jobs).
At the very least we should make it extremely difficult for parents to not vaccinate their kids. Australia makes a number of welfare payments conditional on vaccination.
Or maybe we can licence reproduction and refuse to licence stupid people. Win win.
I was talking about people being dogmatic in their beliefs. I don’t have a problem with people having beliefs, we all do that. It’s how they do it and what they do with them that’s at issue.
Show me where I have stated a “belief” or a “dogma”? Wait, that’s right, I’m just being so unreasonable as to expect some small amount of scientific research to back up your position on the matter of vaccination.
If you could actually point to any research to back up your statements about the decision to not vaccinate, you would have. Instead, you are choosing to paint those who have scientific evidence backing up their argument as persecuting you.
False frame Weka. You’re conflating peer reviewed evidence based research with urban myths.
The neo-cons hate anything that contradicts their models, and the climate deniers hate anything that confronts their lifestyle. I’m sure you can figure out why I brought them up for yourself.
Zorr, ror you specifically, you seem to believe that the only valid knowledge is that produced by RCTs. That’s a belief system, and fair enough, I understand why some people like it so much. It becomes dogma when it prevents you from engaging in dialogue with people who have other (in this case complementary) beliefs (not referring to vaccination there).
You could have taken my original list, and we could have explored what some of those things meant, to the people who believe them and seen what that meant for both of us. Instead you reacted from your dogma (measles = polio), without even really understanding what I wrote, or why people place value on those beliefs, or even what they are based on (you assume there is no evidence, but what evidence do you have for that, esp what evidence from what I wrote???).
You might very well argue that you don’t care, that science is all knowing and everyone should think like you. But here’s the rub. I hear scienceheads complaining a lot about scientific illiteracy and things like popular misunderstandings about science. And I hear many, many more people complaining about science, people from both the mainstream and alternative communities. I just want to bang your bloody heads together. The really frustrating thing is that both sides are right and both are wrong, and in the meantime lots of damage is being done. More and more people are being turned off science because science does fuck up quite a lot. If you want to get those people back you will have to listen to their concerns and not call them dumb fucks.
I also suspect that your dogma means you think I am scientifically illiterate. I’m not. I understand the value of RCTs. I understand what the scientific method is. I place value on those things (different than yours, but still value). I place value on other ways of knowing too (even evidence based ones that haven’t been studied by western science yet).
“False frame Weka. You’re conflating peer reviewed evidence based research with urban myths.
The neo-cons hate anything that contradicts their models, and the climate deniers hate anything that confronts their lifestyle. I’m sure you can figure out why I brought them up for yourself.”
There is a lot going on in this fast moving thread, so sorry, no I don’t know what you mean. Perhaps you could link to the comment where I talked about an urban myth?
No I wouldn’t be expecting you to take my word for it, and I would provide examples. I would however want you to check things out with me and dialogue rather than writing stuff off. I’m going to try later and respond to Disraeli down thread because I think it’s a very good example of him assuming stuff without checking out, writing it off, AND then making value judgements about me that aren’t true.
I would probably also need your response to criticisms of reductionist thinking and/or reductionist science. It’s hard to present other ways of knowing unless the limits or even the parameters of that are acknowledged.
“Jump through my hoops and I might let you in on my awesome secret” – uh, no thanks, I’m good
If it is a form of rational evidence-based “knowing” then it should be able to stand on it’s own two feet without assistance. I am always open to new ideas – I’m not interested in jumping through someone elses hoops in order to even get any information about them.
Though, considering your language and general hostility to “reductionism” as you see it, I am assuming something holistic and potentially Gaia-based.
The reason I am asking for those things is that I don’t want to waste either of our time. You are putting your own parameter on acceptable conversation, why can’t I?
It’s not about something standing on its own two feet or not. It’s about me not wanting to put effort into a conversation that isn’t going to go anywhere.
No, I wasn’t going to talk about Gaia.
Hostility all round. I don’t have a problem with reductionist thinking, I use it all the time myself. I have a problem with how it’s being applied in this conversation. That’s actually quite interesting I would have thought.
I am not necessarily meaning to be overly hostile and in a different environment I probably wouldn’t be as… confrontational.
Part of the problem is that for providing understanding of the natural world, I have yet to meet a better approach than the scientific method for providing that understanding. If there is something else out there, I would like to know about it so that I can at least attempt to judge it on it’s merits and see if it has any value.
Additional to this though, I view “personal philosophy” separate to the greater overall question of science v religion v anything else v FSM. It’s interesting to me to learn what makes other people tick and to find out whether anything in someone else’s world view may fit within my own in such a way that it enriches me. However, opening up with ones own philosophical viewpoint in this setting would be somewhat akin to throwing red meat to ravenous wolves and not to be recommended.
I don’t really know any way to suggest a continuing discussion elsewhere from this forum… shrug feel free to suggest one if you will
“I am not necessarily meaning to be overly hostile and in a different environment I probably wouldn’t be as… confrontational.”
Likewise, and I think I was naive in how I approached the conversation yesterday.
“Part of the problem is that for providing understanding of the natural world, I have yet to meet a better approach than the scientific method for providing that understanding. If there is something else out there, I would like to know about it so that I can at least attempt to judge it on it’s merits and see if it has any value.”
I’m not suggesting there is something better. I’m suggesting there are other tools that can be used alongside. I’m also suggesting that there are limitations to the scientific method and that when we aren’t aware of that we lose out.
“Additional to this though, I view “personal philosophy” separate to the greater overall question of science v religion v anything else v FSM. It’s interesting to me to learn what makes other people tick and to find out whether anything in someone else’s world view may fit within my own in such a way that it enriches me.”
Me too.
“However, opening up with ones own philosophical viewpoint in this setting would be somewhat akin to throwing red meat to ravenous wolves and not to be recommended.”
Lol, exactly. Which explains my rather exaggerated caution in taking this further at this time.
“I don’t really know any way to suggest a continuing discussion elsewhere from this forum… shrug feel free to suggest one if you will”
I reckon let’s just keep an eye out for when the opportunity arises here on ts naturally, and we should probably avoid trying to do it in conversations about vaccination, homeopathy or religion 😉
Unfortunately you also have a bunch of parents in the community that have vaccinated their kids only to find the kids get the diseases anyway. The you try to treat these parents as crap too, instead of dealing with their very real concerns.
Sorry Weka no I was not insulting you. This was in response to I think SSrlands much futher up the post but it’s now a convoluted set of posts. Many apologies
Yes exactly. As soon as I meet anyone who is a vaccine denier, I write them off. I refuse to trust anything they say. It is the canary in the coal mine. Same as:
911 was perpetrated by the CIA
The planet is cooling, not warming
Man didn’t land on the moon
Childhood vaccines are dangerous/against nature
Wall St wanted WWI to ensure that their loans to France and Britain would be repayed
The US placed an energy embargo on Japan, knowing that it would likely lead to war
The Pentago waged war on secular Iraq after 9/11 even though most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi and religious Saudi financed.
Nothing to see here, all is business as normal.
Childhood vaccines are dangerous/against nature
You do know that 98M Americans, and maybe more around the world, were exposed to cancer causing SIV infection through earlier versions of polio vaccines given to children, right?
You do know that a previous version of the MMR vaccine was causing severe and life threatening reactions including encephalitis, in UK babies, right?
You do know that 98M Americans, and maybe more around the world, were exposed to cancer causing SIV infection through earlier versions of polio vaccines given to children, right?
cancer causing SIV infection: cite, pls. Because nobody’s found an increased cancer incidence, even from such a large sample set.
You do know that a previous version of the MMR vaccine was causing severe and life threatening reactions including encephalitis, in UK babies, right?
How many?
Versus, say, the 1400-odd cases of measles in unvaccinated people in the recent south Wales outbreak alone?
And how many of those 1400 odd cases had life threatening consequences like state mandated vaccine encephalitis?
cancer causing SIV infection: cite, pls. Because nobody’s found an increased cancer incidence, even from such a large sample set.
Oddly, this 1999 peer reviewed paper seems to disagree with you. Although, I’ll let you off the hook because I meant Simian Virus 40 (SV40), not SIV.
“Our analysis indicates increased rates of ependymomas (37%), osteogenic sarcomas (26%), other bone tumors (34%) and mesothelioma (90%) among those in the exposed as compared to the unexposed birth cohort.
CONCLUSIONS:
These data suggest that there may be an increased incidence of certain cancers among the 98 million persons exposed to contaminated polio vaccine in the U.S.; further investigations are clearly justified.”
You haven’t actually answered McFlocks question – “”You do know that a previous version of the MMR vaccine was causing severe and life threatening reactions including encephalitis, in UK babies, right?”
How many?”
Please try to actually engage rather than Gish Gallop.
Can you provide the links please? It’s simple enough to copy the URL in to your comments and it would sidestep any awkwardness with selective quoting.
“”You do know that a previous version of the MMR vaccine was causing severe and life threatening reactions including encephalitis, in UK babies, right?”
How many?”
A couple of dozen? Not sure. It wasn’t picked up for a year or two because no systematic monitoring was being conducted, or if it was it was insufficient.
NB the UK govt introduced the vaccination even though other govts (eg. Canadian) had been cautious about it due to problems already being noted.
As for the link you wanted
“Anticancer Res. 1999 May-Jun;19(3B):2173-80.
Cancer risk associated with simian virus 40 contaminated polio vaccine.”
And in 1955-1961 doctors were saying that patients could fully trust their new modern treatments because knowledge had moved along exponentially from 1925-1931.
“Business consultant and tech commentator Lance Wiggs said in his opinion the investment could be a risky move.
He described SAP as a “vast, complex and barely usable system for managing complex businesses”, with a history of failure to deliver on promised costs and benefits.”
I agree 100% with Lance Wiggs. I have been involved with implementing this rigid hopeless system in a large business and we lost visibility of our business for a good 18 months to 2 years…its a horrible dog of a system.
Was thinking hard about shifting to Kiwi bank but will wit a while now.
All I’ve ever heard about SAP is bad. Why does it continue to be so popular? Are they just really good at sales and making promises they can’t meet? Wouldn’t people be able to see through that now?
It’s not limited to SAP, but there’s an expectation that once you’ve been through an implementation of a large ERP you can then become a highly-paid consultant, or “change manager”, or something in sales for the provider. I recently experienced it (at a distance) with MS Dynamics AX.
All I’ve ever heard about SAP is bad. Why does it continue to be so popular? Are they just really good at sales and making promises they can’t meet?
SAP is typically sold through major consulting companies who make a shit tonne of money out of the implementations and ongoing maintenance.
You talk to any of the majors about a project like this, and they will inevitably recommend an ERP system like SAP, Oracle or what have you. $$$ and years of fees for the partners…
btw once working well, the ERP packages can certainly be fast at getting the job done. But the time and money needed to get to that point, plus ongoing, its simply massive.
Between ze germans, MS and Larry there are few real choices left if you want true end-to-end integrated business software for the basic back office i.e.Procure to pay, Sell to collect, payroll, general ledger)
David Parker
If he is pushing this policy he is an idiot.
Compulsory kiwisaver is a far smarter policy.
Forget about increasing retirement age he is handing the election to National.
Given that it is going up internaionally, I think the writing is on the wall. The Australian government yesterday flagged an increase in Australian eligibility to 70.
In the last election it was the only really good labour policy, in my opinion.
The age will increase. There is no alternative. Only question is which Government does it.
Labour would win some kudos from the financial markets and the OECD in announcing an increase to 67, preferably with a phased increase to 70.
“The age will increase, there is no alternative”
How about the moral issue of ‘means testing’ it is a benefit and like all benefits they should be means tested.
I know morality isn’t your strong suit but let’s hear what you have to say on this regardless.
SSLands, right you are, the perfect reasons for not raising the pension age are to be found in your appearance this morning,
Those involved in the financial markets do not need a pension full stop which is why many of us commenting this morning are advocating for a means tested pension and the OECD have no interest either as voters or recipients, their only interest being is to keep the serfs pushing the heavy wheel of capitalism ever faster while being bonded as serfs,
As an after thought, OAB has a comment at 9.42am giving an alternative view to your stupidity about the minimum wage put forward in yesterday’s ‘open mike’ which of course you tucked tail and run from as usual…
Any given reason for raising the age is wrong imho, but wow srylands, you want to use “they are jumping off a cliff so I must jump off a cliff” as a valid argument for denying one of the core responsibilities of a civilized society.
Which is ( just in case your feather-headed brain has forgotten) to properly care for the life and well being of its aged members.
If we can find the money to give to private sector investments, such as Kiwisaver, for retirement, which will dissipate in the next GFC without taxpayer funded bailouts, anyway, then we can find the funding for State super.
This is one of the issues which really show who is stuck in the Neo-liberal dogma.
Do you really think Shill prick, and co, will stop with super?
What he is really saying is we cannot find the resources to feed and house our elderly. A patent nonsense. Lets just increase the number of people in poverty so shrill prick can have a tax cut?
How about reducing the age to 60, means tested but universal at 70?
Relative of mine in South Australia was earning $80,000 at age 80 but no pension, until the day he retired when he received a govt. pension much more generous than NZ’s. Also lot’s of discounts.
And Greywarbler above,(with debatable qualifications), appears to bring the number of those opposed to the raising of the age to be eligible for Super to 11…
Anne,(again with debatable points), would seem to be in agreement as far as an election losing strategy being attached to the raising of the Super entitlement age goes, we now number 12…
…. plus …. I’m now mulling over whether they even get an electorate vote or not. I had been thinking they may get electorate, but not party.
Given Mr Cunliffe’s apparent absolute faith in that “Presbytarian Miser” (Nine to Noon), it’ll likely be neither unless he can somehow indicate that Parker’s penny pinching won’t be allowed to impact on improving the lot of NZ’s most vulnerable.
..i agree that..tho’ i think that parker-image is a good one to foster..that must be hand-in hand with that poverty-busting policy-package..the spending must be done where the spending is needed..
..and i wd like to see parker going all presbyterian over that $5 billion ripped off/stolen by the elites in/with criminal tax-evasion..each and every year..
..i reckon he should announce a three-month amnesty..with dodging elites able to come forward and pay what is owed..with no penalities..
..and then promising after that to go gangbusters on/all over them..
..put the fear of ‘the presbyterian mimister’ into them..
I’m hoping the left has its shit together such that come an election win on Saturday, the SWIFT link is taken down while various preventative measures are put in place (a la post-Muldoon).
Like you Phil, it’s not JUST about stopping the trickle up, but recovering some of the stolen.
@amirite …
It’s 2 plus hours later, and hardly a blip on the reality radar.
I don’t hold out much hope of it happening.
There is however hope … but I’ll wait and see. The Rangitikei candidate has made a post that’s quite appeaing – IMMEDIATELY followed by Karol’s inquiry.
….. waiting
…… waiting
…… waiting
As I’ve said elsewhere … it’ll mean the difference as to whether Labour get at least ONE of the candidate/party votes – or none – until they prove themselves.
We’re talking about 30 years here – far too long to be just voting for what one perceives as the least worst option under an FPP system, to one in which there are at least genuine alternatives exist (that is of course, if one genuinely believes in democracy).
the nzd is on the rise again. key was crowing the other day about overseeing low interest rates. he is not crowing about tge high exchange rate which continues to rise. if interest rates rise soon, as expected, the dollar will go up. greens and labour need to get into this now, hammering key. as for the happy ceos… interview the exporting ceos and see what they think about the prospect of 96 aus dollar and . 85 usd.
its a safe way to attack their management. saying nothing gives the economic management win to national.
key has presided over a soaring kiwi dollar, crucially against aussie and a huge govt debt of over $55billion. simple enough message.
Glenn Greenwald has an interesting article in which he describes the way that James Clapper, the U.S. Director of National Intelligence has a large wooden relief structure dedicated to the U.S. Constitution.
“James Clapper has converted the wall outside of his office into a flamboyant homage to the very same U.S. Constitution that he vandalizes on a daily basis.” https://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/02/24-4
The NZ flag issue raised by John Key illustrates hypocrisy. Here we have a man who has sold off a large part of NZers’ energy assets, is hoping to push through the TPP (which will affect our health & environment and which will involve a loss of sovereignty for the people of NZ), wanting us to think that he is patriotic with our best interests at heart.
I also like this quote from Greenwald in the same article:
“anyone at this point who is willing to equate evidence-free government assertions with Truth is drowning in some extreme levels of authoritarianism, by definition;”
particularly in relation to the issue of GCSB and funding from sources outside this country.
Yep, It–Is–The–Economy–Stupid is where elections are won and lost, David Cunliffe need add into His narrative the 80+billion dollar Government debt,(set to rise to 100 billion under a third term National Government),
Along with that He should be stressing the annual 300–600 million dollar hole in the forecast business tax take showing that the present Governments removal of IRD staff from across the country has stifled its ability to collect due taxes from business,
And lastly the 1.79 Billion dollars of sugar in the form of a deficit this Government is surviving on, a movable feast where ‘balancing the books’ is a fiction set to happen at a future date that is a simple fantasy being promoted by the Government…
That was a safe on the fence interview, which annoyed Ryan by the sounds of it. It was just noise to me. Cunliffe needs to forget about appealing to the middle bloc. They are mostly in camp National. The me too just won’t work Labour does need to set themselves apart from National who the heck likes anything ‘lite’ I hope the afiliate Unions council give the party the curry up bigtime as it’s probably the strongest voice that has their ears.
It wasn’t entirely boring, he did talk about process a lot. I didn’t need to hear how they were getting out the rank and file… …etc…blah..blah.
Key is left looking like a safe pair of hands. Where’s the attack????
Take ChCh, its economical good sense to let the new ChCh shake out and then build to the need instead of this monolithic, lets make ChCh central so boring like Adelaide (and its really boring there).
There’s a list of really bad policies Key is running, from education, to industry…
take broadband, why are we wasting money having installers visit each home seperately, its
economically stupid. Dig up the whole road and install broadband in every home then the cost
would be much lower.
But no, we have to bank lots of fees and charges at every node in the business. Just like our banking sector, where you pay for all the forms about fees, charges, and the cheap banking which all would be far cheaper if they didn’t do all that gunk.
take broadband, why are we wasting money having installers visit each home seperately, its economically stupid. Dig up the whole road and install broadband in every home then the cost would be much lower.
QFT
We really shouldn’t be having discussions about how much the price of copper carried ADSL will be as it shouldn’t even be available after the fibre is rolled out.
Greens are for ending this unnecessary uneconomic activity. Keys been metaphorically sniff petrol fumes, and insuring that money keeps churning through the financial system from unnecessarily expensive activities. And of course the market knows how to gear up the
fees and charges. This is not capitalism its just exploitation by numbers.
Even our legal system has been screwup. Take Ross ponsi scheme. Some of the investors want the tax back they’ve paid this by implication would mean the taxman has been knowingly taking taxes off profits from other moneys involved in the ponsi scheme.
Why should some investors get taxes back when others keep the benefits of the fraud and the tax man keeps the taxes of that fraud.
But wait its worse. Now it turns out parliament has essentially let Ross’s family keep the proceeds of his criminality.
Look sure, an investor who made money from Ross, and had no idea, should keep some of their profits. Like in the Madoff ponsi, it makes sense to not to allow investors to take the higher than normal profits, and just cap them at a average rate. That would mean the
profits would then be available (and taxs on) to the victims of the ponsi.
But no thats too complicated for National, so National (and parliament) lets the family of criminals live it up on the crime of their father, brother, etc.
Its just horrendous thinking how poorly parliament has allowed the law to get, you’d think after decades of smooth economic growth we’d have breed better law, but no, the idiots came to power in the late 70s and decided to throw all the regulations and protections out.
That was a safe on the fence interview, which annoyed Ryan by the sounds of it. It was just noise to me.
Bullshit. I think that Cunliffe was careful, in line with his comment right at the beginning that he was learning to watch what he said because of the likelihood of small errors being magnified and things being misunderstood.
Not a ‘safe’ interview as a description in my mind, more showing thought and care. But at the same time he said he wanted to talk to NZs more, so that we could get to know him as a person.
I think I heard David Cunliffe say that he would aim to have a list of firms that had adopted the living wage program for wages for their people, and that they would be given priority for government contracts. Now that is something to be happy about. That’s a good commitment, to putting NZ in the front of the queue when opportunities for business are being offered. Much needed and good on Labour for that!!!
Ok Warbler point taken no offence to DC you make some good points.
I was hopeful he was going to give National a serve on yesterday’s news of the ballooning costs of the use of contractors and consultants. It’s issues like this (mates clipping the ticket, Aussie mates of Key) that anger taxpayers.
I will wait to hear Winston Peters on the show, you can guarantee Peters will lift his attacks on Key-National as he won’t want them stretching out to too bigger lead in the polls.
Yeah good Point Skinny about the contractors and so on. It seemed to me that this was an introductory joust setting some of the parameters.
Really I think David said as much when he said that it was early days yet. I think it’s a balance – giving out some form to the policies but not enough so that the NACTs can arm themselves with scissors from all sides cutting off bits till the policy garment is unrecognisable.
I just want to see Labour encouraged, not damned because they didn’t promise everything that any individual has strong issues with.
If people change the way they look at government and the economy right around, I think they will get a clearer understanding of where we are now. Say that the economy has come to be what the people in government want, and they grow or shrink it wherever and whenever the mood takes them at any particular time. They haven’t got any interest in the people, who are a package that go along with the economy, and who have to be manipulated into doing so, and to get them to vote for the party most motivated to get hold of the economy for themselves.
That is why the NACTs are doing so well. Very focussed motivation on money, business and profit. All those things are sacred and like prosperity churches, the belief is that if you have these three things, you are righteous and blessed. The rest of the rabble are just a millstone around the neck of the achievers. That is why you can lie to the people if that seems propitious.
So don’t expect anything good from NACT and try to keep the remnants of old Labour and all of new Labour away from the siren call of simple greed and self-centredness. Otherwise they won’t let the rest eat cake, they will even whinge at the cost of noodles in salty water for the paeons.
I would like to hear Winston on RNZ attacking Key, but will it do any good ?-
Winston will not have a bar of the Greens whatever, in which ever way they are presented.
CV IS disagree completely with you on vacination the only vaccination that has low coverage is hooping cough.
All other vaccinations have very high coverage according to the British Medical Journal .
Please front with evidence otherwise.
This school in Auckland most likely has a high immigrant population many of who haven’t had full immunization.
Key said the decision to lift the minimum wage was made against the background of an improving economy, with a fall in unemployment to 6 per cent.
The rise would have a negligible effect on jobs, although it was estimated 2300 would have been lost if the minimum wage had gone up to $14.50, he said.
Nice link OAB, everyone should have a good read of that, especially those who have it ingrained in there nut that raising the minimum wage leads to job losses,
And No, for the ‘wing-nuts’ we ARE NOT advocating the minimum wage be raised to 30 dollars an hour or some other ludicrous number pulled from your rectal cavities,
The economy, especially the low waged one can afford a series of small pay rises throughout the year, raising the minimum wage in that particular studies case lead to NO higher unemployment rate when compared on a State by State basis in the US,(in fact the opposite occurred),
The simple economics would suggest that even at 15.50 an hour in the fast food industry the current level of profit would remain with a small raise in the cost of each burger sold of between 2 and 5 cents, are a mass of people going to decamp from purchasing big mac’s because of such a rise in price, doubt it…
Yeah nice link. Pity it is rubbish. Someone at The Standard posted that study prevuiously. It is famous in the literature for being highly flawed. It has been reevaluated most notably in 1996. This showed that the data actually showed that raising the minimum wage had a material impact on employment:
Strange that ae OAB, Cullen kept raising the minimum wage and unemployment kept falling, in a world occupied by SSLands where having at least one hand tucked down the front of the Y fronts would seem to be compulsory that just didn’t occur…
i have got things to do, later SSLands i will add a link to every comment i make to you outlining that the raising of the minimum wage DOES NOT lead to more unemployment,
Hopefully this time round, my having posted many of these links on a previous occasion, you will not turn yellow,tuck tail, and, scarper like the coward many of us here view you as…
That old hat has been disproven in a number of Countries. It’s Chicken Little stuff put out here by big business interest groups, like cheerleader Phil O’Reilly of Business NZ. Who I might add, was deplorable sticking up for Aussie corporate Progressive Enterprises. You would think he would of backed the Kiwi suppliers, instead of crying how hard done by PE was. So no credibility there whatsoever.
Cunliffe seems to take the rather poor poll results as of recent as a challenge to do more and better, rather than to accept defeat this early in election year. He gave good answers and sounds like a PM in waiting, certainly is more convincing and better spoken than John Key and his twisted talk.
Compare David Cunliffe’s very good interview (well spoken, self confident, objective, balanced, respectful, fair and sensible) to the comparatively below average performance of John Key a week earlier (compliments of Radio NZ National audio service):
Any sensible, intelligent enough person will after comparing both interviews surely get the message, Key cannot be trusted, Cunliffe has ideas, a vision and potential for leading NZ into the future!
xtasy. DC did come over well but unfortunately RadioNZ listenership is largely an audience of ‘already committed’ voters.
Worse, it has a pathetically small audience compared with talkback Radio Network and the “shallow-DJ-culture-music” stations. Even the sports network has politically biased/aligned jocks who get their subtle right-wing digs in.
Yes, I admit that RNZ has a small, mostly above average educated and more politically interested listener-ship.
But the hope is, and Cunliffe mentions this, that Labour (besides the Greens already doing this to a degree) will use social media, networking, local meetings and events and other means, to reach out and spread their message!
That is the only way to get attention, indirectly also by the MSM. It would be wrong and foolish to rely on the MSM to change and get more honest, fair and balanced, as they will not, so there is no hope for any in opposition to get the coverage needed to spread news about policy and persons they will have as candidates.
Yet to a degree the MSM will need to be answered and used, but it must be done with extreme cautions and perhaps under conditions. With events, social media driven discussion and so, the people will hear and ask and discuss, and it would be stupid for the MSM to just ignore this. So indirectly they will be forced to pay some attention and report on it.
It may even assist Labour by exposing the bias by certain media in interviews, pointing this out, and that will show listeners and viewers, they have a point, they are not given the same respect, time and so forth.
A slight tangent, but what annoys me is how the SlipperyOne has been able to avoid the MSM reminding the conservative and fundamentalist voters of his personal stances on social issues.
Issues that are considered social engineering amongst many.
Correct me if I am wrong…
Key was instrumental in the repeal of S59 of the crimes act and proud of it.
Key makes milage from his support of Gay rights, Gay marriage etc.
Things that are anathema to the FamilyFist/brigade Conservative party (and I suspect to many of the 800,000 who didn’t vote last time around).
… I have the enduring image of John Key and Helen Clark approaching the waiting media scrum in the Beehive to announce that they have worked through the repeal of S59. And that moment was the breaking of the Clark government/making of Key as a negotiator (real or imagined).
Yes, that is only the result of MSM BIAS, none else. Key and Nats are not challenged on any of that, so the public (with short memories) forget things that happened, and they will not even think of it. Out of mind out of sight, so to say.
And I think, for Labour, Greens and others, there is NO alternative to use all other means of communicating information and messages to vote, via social media, via online forums, via public meetings in public squares and places, with events in similar places (with free entertainment, possibly by “friendly” and popular artists like musicians), with going to work places, with talking to people face to face, with question and answers at such events!
Winston “First” did have his political comeback because of his hard work of filling halls all over the country for months, yes years. Every MP from Labour and Greens, every candidate, must do the same over the coming months, as the MSM cannot be relied on, to be fair and balanced, as too many working for them are upper middle class, and opportunistic, now often young and career minded, having too little experience of a society before the 1990s, when neoliberalism become firmly printed onto the society and into the minds of people here (dividing, and leading to lower income for years increased crime, social degredation and worse).
The “media personalities” of baby boomer age are mostly also well to do folks, now, who work mostly for the private, corporate media, and they have settled for nice salaries, and will not want a change, where they have to pay more taxes and may have to compete with more and better public service media.
“..The “media personalities” of baby boomer age are mostly also well to do folks, now, who work mostly for the private, corporate media, and they have settled for nice salaries, and will not want a change, where they have to pay more taxes and may have to compete with more and better public service media…”
1..
..self-interest/corporate-pressures drives/tinges so much of what they do..
Winston’s audiences are made up of people who no longer go to work.
His meetings are at about 10.30am with tea and scones to follow, which is why many go for the feed.
“Key was instrumental in the repeal of S59 of the crimes act and proud of it.
Key makes milage from his support of Gay rights, Gay marriage etc.”
Yep, Key wins elections by appealing to voters well outside of the National party’s core die-hard base of bigoted entitled horse-fuckers, and the horse-fuckers roll with it because he keeps winning elections.
Have you not been paying attention for the last 8 years?
That interview with John Key last week was aggravating, which is not a shock in itself. What was so galling was the obvious weak handed wrestling expressed by Ryan. (again not a shock but it was extraordinarily tame).
Key freely stated that inheriting a 10 billion dollar debt when they entered Govt in 2008 was a very dangerous thing and his tone inferred something akin to Labour planting an IED in the books and it was only his team’s meticulous skills as bomb disposal experts which pulled us away from certain destruction. (i may have read into his words a little 😉 )
but what cannot be disputed is that at no time during the discussion did Ryan raise the issue of the 80 billion dollar debt we currently are shackled to. Like lead weights on a mooring line, all we can do is watch the approach of an incoming tide.
Yes, Ryan could have and should have put on the pressure more on finance and other issues, and not let Key get away with his up-talking of the economy. But she firmly challenged Key on the electoral reform issue, where it was the Nats that stopped reforms, to change the threshold for smaller parties and stop the piggy backing by small parties getting in by just winning one electorate and not reaching the threshold.
Key did try to mislead there, like in other areas, and she nailed him on that. It was National that wanted to keep electoral law as it is, so they could rely on a small party like ACT or United Future getting in, perhaps getting more than one MP into parliament, while not reaching 5 per cent of the vote.
An informed person would though have heard how Key was his usual, twisting figures, making up arguments and claims, and dodging some questions by not giving clear answers.
I remember Goff blathering on about changing the law so that people the cops said were criminals, even if they weren’t convicted of anything, could have their assets seized on the basis of some obscure unprovable assertion that they were the proceeds of crime. Funny how this doesn’t seem to apply to corporate fraud, although if the Maori family down the street buy a couple of new Harleys they run the risk of losing them.
I heard David Cunliffe on 9-noon thisx am.
too much beltway blah.
the question is where are the jobs.
forget the mangement speak.
that does not and will not win votes.
Part of the problem was the questions: too much focus on polls, post-election alliances, and poltiical strategies. That provides a beltway framing to the whole interview.
well David Cunliffe has to remember that ryan is only one vote and to hell with the questions.
he is a poltician and not some uni lecturer speaking to a classroom of crypto eggheads.
its our party and not theirs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
if he doesn’t understand this then they are going to keep blindsiding him with irellevant nonsense.
I disagree, I’d say the majority of people who listen to National radio are crypto eggheads.
They probably found what Cunliffe had to say quite exciting.
The point about DC today was that he can and did perform extremely well. Especially given the challenges at the moment. He didn’t falter.
Ryan kept asking repetitive questions about who he would promote from other parties etc. He handled it very well. Beltway blah as you call it Captain Hook is probably appropriate for this audience.
How can farmers make a buck when this sort of thing is going on? If NACTs are said to be the business-friendly party, is this true of all businesses including the 90% mini businesses that NZ runs on, including small farmers? Why doesn’t the government dismantle the ever invasive traffic police that increasingly are at hand to sanction everything we do, and set up fast-response units to aid the country people, supposedly the backbone of NZ earnings and enterprise??
Police in Southland are investigating the death of 500 sheep at a farm near Gore. They appear to have suffocated.
Police say the sheep were discovered dead in a gully on a farm at Mt Wendon, about 45 kilometres north of Gore.
They say it isn’t clear whether the deaths are suspicious, as the sheep may have smothered themselves after being spooked by an unwelcome presence on the property, such as poachers.
The stock loss is estimated to be worth thousands of dollars.
Police say poaching is becoming an increasingly common problem in the area and they’re keen to hear from any farmers who have seen suspicious activity, especially around Mt Wendon, in early February.
Kids love dinosaurs.
So what better way to inspire their interest in the oil and gas industry than telling them that dinosaurs that once roamed the earth live on in the fuel in mummy and daddy’s car.
Except, that’s wrong. Almost all oil and gas is comprised from plant matter which decomposed millions of years before dinosaurs existed.
This is one of several scientific inaccuracies in an oil and gas industry roadshow touring Taranaki and Whanganui schools to ‘educate’ kids about the drilling off their coast.
The dinosaur theme is the lure they use to attract children to their propaganda on how great, safe and important it is to explore and drill for oil.
Sadly the Minister of Education is happy to allow this corporate incursion into schools with no requirement for balance.
Climate change does not even feature in the “educational experience” except as something that affected dinosaurs many years ago, while the science that is mentioned is often compltely wrong.
Here is an example: “Those dinosaurs that roamed Earth millions of years ago are now oil and gas. We get it out to put into your family car”.
These are the kinds of factual errors which annoyed Dr Mike Dickison, Whanganui Regional Museum Curator of Natural History, who highlighted the industry’s “cynical ploy” to attract kids in his local paper this week.
The show “was not an educational show at all,” Dr Dickison said, “but is entirely funded by the gas and oil industry to convince kids that drilling is safe and cool”.
The Green Party is astonished at the bias in this presentation and that it raises no concern at all from the Minister.
Dinosaurs in the petrol tank remind me of the creationist museums in the US and A, where Adam and Eve have pet dinosaurs. Does Colon Craig know that petrol comes from dinosaurs, and doesn’t it worry him that the oil companies make no effort to separate decomposed dinosaurs from decomposed humans? Would a good christian like Colon run his car on the rotted remains of Jesus? I’d love to see an interviewer ask him about that one. Maybe we’ve found a new ally against fracking and drilling 🙂
“We all know the Government is going to change. It’s either going to change this time or next time. I think it’s more likely to change this time, and if it does, the question in front of New Zealanders is what is the composition of that new government going to be?”
A bob each way for Cunliffe but yes I agree that Labour will win the 2017 election
score two for the banal poltroons in the justice system (industry). there is no amount of courses, counselling or resources will turn an aspergers person into a non aspergers person.
I really hope I haven’t offended anyone and changed their lives forever (sic).
I hadn’t noticed that it was a political blog. After you get past the click bait, the paid ranting, the sorry for himself posting, the blustering and rhetorical grandstanding on historical issues that Cam is too young to know about, there really isn’t a lot of politics left or right.
I’d have described it as a classic “blog” in the original sense in which a poor depressed soul pours out their sorry hard luck story. In the days of yore he’d have spent a lot of time in a pub – and let me tell you that I heard a lot of no-hopers like him when I served the public bar. Everything is someone or something elses fault and never because he is a lazy irresponsible fuckwit.
It is as predictable as a male Mills and Boon and just as tedious…
It’s not really a blog, there is little original content, just a stream of jokes, random youtube clips, and abusing people. Occasionally there’s a quote from the news with a sentence or two of drivel from the keyboard of the Great Blubber.
Is the award for getting random google hits from round the world? It can’t be for political analysis because at no point in his rambling incoherent posts is he even close to anything resembling a rational thought. Everyone who sees that blog is made dumber for having read it. I award Cam Slater 0 points, and may God have mercy on his soul.
Slippery the Prime Minister is playing ‘gambler’ with Nationals chances at the 2014 election, i suppose He has to at least pretend the main stream media polls are anywhere correct and not simply the propaganda from Nationals supporters,
Now Dissing Winston Peters to the max Slippery is trying to accomplish a 2008 result, a Parliament without NZFirst obviously enamored of the dream of ‘Governing alone’…
Slippery the Prime Minister is playing ‘gambler’ with Nationals chances at the 2014 election
Playing gambler and winning on his hunches seems to give the PM an extreme buzz and are the things that make his life worth living. Oh – and denigrating anyone with a social or environmental conscience.
Like the dying days of the asbestos industry, the writing is on the wall for coal in this country it is only a matter of time. But the sooner the better, if we are to leave a survivable climate for future generations.
You see, I’m just a little confused, here. In the latest Listener, the Nats’ somewhat pompous Trade Minister, Tim Groser, tells Guyon Espiner that “I was essentially…..the most employed child actor in New Zealand as a small child”, reflecting on his work on radio and TV dramas such as CLOSE TO HOME.
Putting aside the fact that I’d never heard of Groser before his relatively recent foray into politics, how can someone who was born in 1950 have been “a child actor” in a series (CLOSE TO HOME) that first aired in 1975 ? Did he have some sort of delayed childhood ? Still in nappies at the age of 27 ???
Yeah, I mean the guy would’ve been 10 or 11 when TV was first introduced into New Zealand (1960-1961), so he was already bordering on teenage-hood then. He MAY have been on radio as a kid, but I’m buggered if I can think of any NZ TV drama from the early 60s. Pukemanu was early 70s, by which point he was an adult.
I see Mike Bush “Detective Inspector Bruce Hutton had integrity beyond reproach” is now the Police Commissioner.
How reassuring to have a guy who does not believe the royal commission when they say there was police corruption. Of course the police never do anything wrong, so he won’t have to invest any time in creating a culture where they ever have to admit mistakes.
He leads by example. When challenged on his comments he apologised if they gave offence but did not resile from his claim about Hutton ‘s integrity.
This is not minor IMHO. This sends the wrong message to the police rank and file, and places in-house loyalty and achieving business results ahead of openness and service to the community.
The NZ Police cannot advance as a more open organisation when their leader rejects well-researched criticism.
With this from Stuff who think that I might want to know that this affair
‘. . .will also embarrass the Government because of the ties between the council and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and NZ Trade and Enterprise.
As chair of the Middle East council, Mr Vukcevic rubs shoulders with powerful figures from MFAT – including Foreign Affairs Minister Murray McCully.
The ministry said tonight that Mr McCully had no knowledge of the CV fraud, and nor did the ministry. “It is a matter for the council. It is a private sector organisation. MFAT has a good working relationship with the council and its members.”
The council’s current executive includes former Young Nats president Daniel Fielding, and the vice-chairman is Auckland lawyer Stewart Germann. Former National Party president Michelle Boag advises the executive.
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James Renwick is Professor of Physical Geography at Victoria University of Wellington. He studied at Canterbury and the University of Washington and has worked on diverse aspects of climate science, including global atmospheric circulation and Antarctic sea ice. In December 2019 he was appointed to the New Zealand Climate Change ...
by Philip Ferguson Exit polls are showing a three-way virtual tie between the main parties in the south of Ireland. Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are all on just over 22%. FG on 22.4, SF on 22.3, FF on 22.2. Exit polls indicate that over 30% of 18-24 ...
A chronological listing of news articles linked to on the Skeptical Science Facebook Page during the past week, i.e., Sun, Feb 2, 2020 through Sat, Feb 8, 2020 Editor's Pick New Report Details How Fossil Fuel Industry's Climate Destruction Also Exacerbates Human Rights Abuses"Even in the face of the ...
In a previous post I described briefly when and how the Starlink satellite chains – recent launches by Space-X in a scheme to bring 5G internet connectivity to the whole globe – could be seen from New Zealand with the naked eye. Here I provide an update and predictions for ...
Keeping The Faith: This Government’s broad, new, heavily moderated, progressive faith does not require a prime minister with the powers of a medieval pope. Jacinda’s regime has no need of subterranean torture chambers to ensure compliance. A gift for diplomacy and the ability to inspire her fellow human-beings is all ...
Jonathan Freedland of the Guardian has penned a column which chastises the left wing of the Labour party for daring to retain principles and ideals, qualities - it seems - that should be jettisoned in pursuit of power.Never mind that Freedland was an ardent Remainer, that is to say, one ...
Tonight’s news suggests the coronavirus outbreak may have originated from pangolins. Details are very sketchy, almost nothing at all beyond a claim of high similarity. My impression is this claim comes from a press release by South China Agricultural University. Initial discussion online suggests this is a more likely candidate ...
by Susanne Kemp The Fire and Emergency service (FENZ) has recently asked firefighters in Auckland Areas 3, 4 and 5 to take on an additional duty that has rather ominous implications. Namely, to collect names and addresses of everyone on the premises of fires they attend. The firefighters’ union, the ...
Part of the story of the Nazis' rise to power in Germany was the willingness of mainstream right-wing parties to work with them to keep out the left. Because of this, one of the fundamental rules of postwar German politics has been "do not work with Nazis". As a result, ...
There has long been a truism in public broadcasting: don't mess with Concert FM. The theory was that although the station has been in a long-term audience decline, and that audience is steadily ageing out, it has powerful establishment support – and any threat to it would provoke a fury.As ...
This is a re-post from the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists The heat absorbed in Earth’s oceans reached a new record in 2019, found a recent study published in the journal Advances in Atmospheric Sciences. Despite the fact that this has been the case for almost every year over the past decade, this information ...
We are confronted with the spectre of Simon Bridges making clear he cannot, will not, trust Winston Peters – the oft-cited “King Maker” in New Zealand politics.Supporters are lauding it as a master stroke, naturally, because in their eyes, it prevents him being the tail that wags the dog. ...
by Don Franks Under a government claiming empathy with the fine arts, Radio New Zealand ( RNZ) is poised to cut back its classical music station, RNZ Concert. The plan is replacing it on FM radio with music “for a younger audience” as part of a new multimedia music brand. ...
More Thwaites This past week we heard disturbing news about Antarctica's Thwaites Glacier. Helping to fill in the longer term history of Thwaites' behavior and especially helpful in interpreting results of the recent drilling project and what it may say about the future of this unstable mass of ice is Revealing the ...
Inaccuracies are very common in scientific paper abstracts. Image credit:Science in the Abstract: Don’t Judge a Study by its Cover I have come to accept anti-fluoride campaigners will never stop cherry-picking research and findings ...
“The scene is set, the players met…”. And what players they are in this farce of an Election coming up in the United States this year. There is a multi-faceted anger in the broader situation the world finds itself in, in which the false promises of so-called “moderates” find themselves ...
A few years ago, a company lowballed a contract to dispose of toxic waste from the Tiwai Point aluminium smelter. So, they dumped it in a disused paper mill in Mataura, then went into liquidation - effectively dumping the problem on local councils. The waste is dangerous - it releases ...
Unhappy with the demonisation of Iran in Western media, I was fortunate to have the Australian Institute of International Affairs invite me to write an alternative analysis for their on-line journal Australian Outlook. I did, and they serialised it into two parts. The essays are short, so I did not ...
Over on The Good Society, Max Rashbrooke suggests that its time to start directly taxing wealth:A wealth tax would be levied on net wealth – that is, the value of people’s assets once their debts have been subtracted. Such a tax would be highly redistributive. Levied at 1% on wealth ...
The quarterly labour market statistics have been released, and unemployment has dropped to 4%. There are now 111,000 unemployed - 15,000 fewer than when Labour took office. Its not the performance we had under Clark (when unemployment was ~3.3%), but its still a reasonable improvement over prevailing conditions under National. ...
Prof Michael Baker, Prof Nick Wilson, Louise Delany, Prof Richard Edwards, Prof Philippa Howden-ChapmanThe current national measles epidemic in New Zealand is amongst the largest we have experienced in the last 40 years. It can be linked to the problems created by long-term erosion and fragmentation of national public health ...
I’m about to start teaching science communication to tertiary students, which is equally hilarious and terrifying to me. (Hi to my students who have Googled me and found this post.) I loved English at high school, but we spent most of our time reading The Outsiders, discussing the differences between metaphors and ...
Space-X has started launching its Starlink satellites into low-Earth orbit with a plan to use some tens of thousands of these to deliver 5G wifi to the whole globe. Chains of these satellites can be seen in the evening or before-dawn skies, through the sunlight they scatter. Here I provide ...
New Zealand was the first country to decriminalise prostitution and it was promoted as a progressive move. Yet survivors of the sex trade say that pimps and johns are emboldened operating within the law, and that the women are treated more like a piece of property to be used and ...
A dairy owner in St Kilda, Dunedin was delighted to hear that an attempted robbery of his establishment was foiled by a government-funded security system. Sean Lee was delighted at how well the anti-theft smoke system worked. When a knife-wielding man entered the store, the shop assistant immediately pressed a ...
Customs says it stopped more than three tonnes of illegal drugs coming into New Zealand last year. This includes 1,180kg of methamphetamine, 329kg of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine precursors, which could have been converted into 246kg of methamphetamine, 739kg and 6469 pills of MDMA or Ecstasy and 60kg of cocaine. Offshore, ...
Hon. Shane Jones, Minister for Regional Economic Development Up to $2 million will be allocated from the Provincial Growth Fund to set up temporary water supplies in Kaikohe and Kaitaia where drought is biting hard, Regional Economic Development Minister Shane Jones has announced. Drought conditions in Northland have led to ...
Darroch Ball, Spokesperson for Law and Order New Zealand First welcomes the deployment of an Eagle Police helicopter in Christchurch in what is a step towards fulfilling its long-standing goal to increase the use of police helicopters for the front line, particularly in addressing the scourge of fleeing drivers. Christchurch leads ...
It may have been the first sitting week of 2020, but our Government is already in full-swing - managing a strong economy, investing in infrastructure, and working to break the cycle of homelessness. Read below for all that, and more... ...
In a heated debate in Parliament, National's Deputy Leader Paula Bennett claimed that “nearly 1600 patched gang members have been added” since the Coalition Government took power. To illustrate her point, she altered a chart used by Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern to show her government’s progress in housing to instead ...
Speech by the Rt Hon Winston Peters at Parliament’s Opening 2020 "We all need insurance" This year New Zealanders are going to have a clear choice to make That choice is between: Optimism versus pessimism; More progress versus back to the future; Investment versus divestment; Unity versus division. New Zealand ...
Infrastructure Minister Shane Jones has slammed the Board of Auckland Airport following the airport's runway closing twice within two weeks due to maintenance. Around 2,000 passengers were affected by last week’s runway closures, according to 1NEWS. Another maintenance closure on January 24 saw two international flights and three domestic flights ...
Jenny Marcroft, Spokesperson for Broadcasting New Zealand First supports the commissioning of a business case to assess the viability of a new public media entity. “A strong media environment is critical for a healthy democracy. New Zealand First is a strong supporter of a diverse, independent media,” New Zealand First broadcasting spokesperson ...
Pounamou and technology industries in the West Coast region are set to receive more than $2 million in Provincial Growth Fund (PGF) funding. This was announced by the Under-Secretary for Regional Economic Development Fletcher Tabuteau during Waitangi Day commemorations in Hokitika. He said $800,000 would be given to Development West ...
Clayton Mitchell MP, New Zealand First spokesperson for Labour and Industrial Relations Unemployment and wage growth numbers released by Stats NZ today demonstrate a labour market in good shape with unemployment falling to 4.0%, the underutilisation rate falling to an 11 year low, and wage growth at a 10-year high ...
Hon. Ron Mark, New Zealand First Spokesperson for Defence New Zealand First Spokesperson for Defence Ron Mark, welcomes the official opening of Te Rau Aroha, a new museum at Waitangi Treaty Grounds as part of our Coalition Agreement. “It is a great honour to be part of an effective Government ...
Rt. Hon. Winston Peters, Deputy Prime MinisterGood morning,Let us start with important acknowledgements.First, this special day, in remembrance of the 28th Maori Battalion, is also to honour all those men and women who have risked their lives in the service of our country.Second, special guest Robert ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters says New Zealand will look to build on its relationship with the United Kingdom and recommit to the European Union, after the country officially left the continental union recently. The Minister said New Zealand already cooperates closely with Britain on defence and security issues and has ...
New Zealanders are increasingly better off under this Government as wages rise and families have more disposable income, Finance Minister Grant Robertson says. Stats NZ reported today that average household disposable incomes after housing costs rose 4.9% in 2019. This was the highest rise in four years and came as ...
All New Zealanders need to have their voices heard at work to ensure we have an inclusive and productive economy. Today we introduce a Bill to do this for workers in the New Zealand screen industry, Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Iain Lees-Galloway says. “The Screen Industry Workers Bill will ...
The Government has announced further help for the Southland and Otago regions to speed up recovery efforts from the floods. “I’ve approved Enhanced Taskforce Green (ETFG), making $500,000 available to help with the clean-up in Fiordland, Southland, and the Clutha district in Otago,” Minister for Social Development Carmel Sepuloni said. ...
Following the announcement that more than 340 schools will be funded to run events promoting vocational education, the Government has announced it will fund a further 257 events to be run by employers and industry. “These industry-run events will allow more than 30,000 students to connect with more than 2,000 ...
Today the Government is making progress on a fairer and more secure rental market for renters and landlords with the introduction of the Residential Tenancies Amendment Bill in Parliament. “This Bill includes a series of reforms to improve the wellbeing of the 609,700 households that live in rented homes, and ...
A Government programme to wipe out pea weevil has achieved a world first, with Biosecurity Minister Damien O’Connor today announcing the successful eradication of the noxious pest from Wairarapa. This means the nearly four-year ban on pea plants and pea straw was lifted today. Commercial and home gardeners can again grow ...
Southland residents hit by flooding caused by heavy rainfall can now access help finding temporary accommodation with the Government activating the Temporary Accommodation Service, Minister of Civil Defence Peeni Henare announced today. “The Temporary Accommodation Service (TAS) has been activated by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment to help ...
“Is that it?” That’s Finance Minister Grant Robertson’s response to Simon Bridges’ much-hyped economic speech today. “Simon Bridges just gave the most over-hyped and under-delivered speech that I can remember during my time in politics,” Grant Robertson said. “It’s not surprising. Simon Bridges literally said on the radio this morning ...
A trial deployment of the Police Eagle helicopter in Christchurch will test whether the aircraft would make a significant difference to crime prevention and community safety. “The Bell 429 helicopter will be based in Christchurch for five weeks, from 17 February to 20 March,” said Police Minister Stuart Nash. “The ...
The Government has kept up the pace of its work to promote New Zealand’s trade interests and diversify our export markets, with visits to Fiji and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) by Trade and Export Growth Minister David Parker. Building momentum to bring the PACER Plus trade and development agreement ...
The Coalition Government’s investment in a strong border and disrupting transnational organised crime produced record results for stopping drugs in 2019, says Minister of Customs Jenny Salesa. The illegal drugs were seized at the New Zealand border by Customs, and overseas by Customs’ international border partners before the drugs could ...
Transport Minister Phil Twyford today kicked off construction of a separated cycleway alongside Tamaki Drive. A two-way separated cycleway will be built along the northern side of Tamaki Drive, between the Quay Street Cycleway extension and Ngapipi Road. There will be a separate walking path alongside. Phil Twyford said giving ...
Owner-occupiers of unit and apartments living in earthquake-prone buildings will have certainty about the financial support they’ll be eligible for with the release of criteria for an upcoming assistance scheme, Minister for Building and Construction Jenny Salesa says. The Residential Earthquake-Prone Building Financial Assistance Scheme will help unit owners facing ...
Temporary restrictions on travel from China will remain in place as a precautionary measure to protect against the spread of the COVID-19 coronavirus. The restrictions which prevent foreign nationals travelling from, or transiting through, mainland China from entering New Zealand have been extended for a further 8 days. This position ...
Employment Minister Willie Jackson announced today that Tairāwhiti rangatahi will benefit from an investment made by the Government’s He Poutama Rangatahi (HPR) scheme. The funding will go to the Tautua Village, Kauneke programme and the Matapuna Supported Employment Programme which will fund 120 rangatahi over two years. “Both programmes work ...
All parents and caregivers need to ensure that their children go to school unless they are sick, Associate Education Minister Tracey Martin said today. “The school attendance results for 2019 show, across the board, a drop in the number of students going to school regularly,” the Minister says. “Apart from ...
A Deed of Settlement agreeing redress for historical Treaty claims has been signed by the Crown and Moriori at Kōpinga Marae on Rēkohu (Chatham Islands) today, Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations Andrew Little has announced. Moriori have a tradition of peace that extends back over 600 years. This settlement ...
Transport Minister Phil Twyford today with Māori King Tuheitia Pōtatau Te Wherowhero VII officially opened the country’s newest road, the $384 million Huntly section of the Waikato Expressway. The 15km four-lane highway with side and central safety barriers takes State Highway 1 east of Huntly town, across lowlands and streams ...
The rapid uptake of life-saving new hepatitis C medicine Maviret since it was funded by PHARMAC a year ago means the elimination of the deadly disease from this country is a realistic goal, Health Minister David Clark says. Hepatitis C is a blood-borne virus which attacks the liver, proving fatal ...
Kaupapa Māori will underpin the Government’s new plan to deal with homelessness announced by the Prime Minister in Auckland this morning. “Māori are massively overrepresented among people experiencing homelessness, so, to achieve different outcomes for Māori, we have to do things very differently,” says the Minister of Māori Development ...
1000 new transitional housing places delivered by end of year to reduce demand for emergency motel accommodation. Introduce 25% of income payment, after 7 days, for those in emergency motel accommodation to bring in line with other forms of accommodation support. Over $70m extra to programmes that prevents those at ...
Clear requirements for ensuring customers are treated fairly by banks, insurers and other financial service providers are included in new financial conduct legislation that passed its first reading today. “The recent reviews, by the Financial Markets Authority (FMA) and Reserve Bank of New Zealand, into the conduct of banks and ...
Applications are now open for the fifth round of the Regional Culture and Heritage Fund Associate Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Grant Robertson announced today. “I am delighted to open this year’s fund which has some $7 million available to support performing arts venues, galleries, museums and whare ...
The Minister of Māori Development, Hon Nanaia Mahuta today congratulated Associate Professor Amokura Kawharu on her appointment as the next President of the Law Commission. “Amokura Kawharu will be a standout in her new role, leading in an innovative and forward looking approach to the law reform process. She will ...
Auckland University legal academic Amokura Kawharu has been appointed as the next President of the Law Commission, Justice Minister Andrew Little announced today. Associate Professor Kawharu will take up her new appointment on 11 May 2020. “I would like to congratulate Associate Professor Kawharu on her appointment,” Andrew ...
A programme for employers to help them engage effectively with younger employees was launched today by Minister of Employment, Willie Jackson. The Youth Ready Employer Programme contains a range of on-line templates that employers can easily access to help with employing and retaining young people in their businesses. The programme ...
Budget 2020 will be delivered on Thursday 14 May, Finance Minister Grant Robertson announced today. “This year’s Budget will continue the Coalition Government’s focus on tackling the long-term challenges facing New Zealand while also preparing the economy for the future. “Those challenges and opportunities cannot be resolved in one budget, ...
I move, That this House place on record its appreciation and thanks for the devoted and distinguished service to New Zealand by the late Rt Hon Michael Kenneth Moore, member of the Order of New Zealand, a member of Her Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council, an Honorary Member of the ...
Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor has today classified the drought conditions in Northland as an adverse event for the primary sector, unlocking $80,000 in Government support. “This is recognition that the extreme and prolonged nature of this dry spell is taking its toll on our farmers and growers and additional support ...
The Minister of Police says an operation to smash a trans national drug smuggling ring today will make a significant impact on the methamphetamine trade fuelling harm in our communities. Police have announced 10 arrests and the seizure of up to five million dollars’ worth of illicit drugs after an ...
The Government’s books are in a strong position to withstand global headwinds, with the accounts in surplus and expenses close to forecast, Finance Minister Grant Robertson says. The Treasury today released the Crown accounts for the six months to December. The operating balance before gains and losses (OBEGAL) was above ...
Race courses can improve safety with this year’s second round of funding from the Racing Safety Development Fund. Minister for Racing Winston Peters has announced the second funding round of 2019/20 is open with $347,875 available for distribution. “The racing industry is integral to the economic and social fabric of ...
The Government is committing $300,000 to fund research to update behavioural information to make sure HIV and STI prevention services are targeted appropriately in New Zealand. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Finance Minister Grant Robertson made the announcement at today’s Big Gay Out in Auckland. “There is much talk about ...
The Minister of Broadcasting, Communications and Digital Media has announced work will begin on a business case to assess the viability of forming a new public media entity. “The Government must ensure New Zealanders have a strong independent public media service for decades to come, which means ensuring public ...
Minister of Civil Defence Hon Peeni Henare announced today that the Government will contribute $100,000 to the Southland regional Mayoral Relief Fund, to support communities impacted by the recent flooding in Southland. Mr Henare says this week’s flooding has caused significant disruption to communities in the lower South Island. ...
Heritage buildings throughout New Zealand will benefit from the $1.1 million in Heritage EQUIP funding grants announced today. “These grants for seismic strengthening projects help private building owners get the advice they need to start building work or to get the work completed,” Grant Robertson says. “Timaru’s Grosvenor Hotel has ...
A new survey has found New Zealand’s game development sector has grown beyond expectations and is on track to becoming a billion dollar industry in 2025, Economic Development Minister Phil Twyford says. “New Zealand’s interactive media sector grew by 42 per cent in last financial year to $203.4 million, according ...
Te Tii, the lower marae at Waitangi, is among more than 70 marae now connected to broadband internet thanks to the Provincial Growth Fund’s marae connectivity scheme, Regional Economic Development Minister Shane Jones said today. In February 2019, the Provincial Growth Fund (PGF) allocated $21 million to connect rural towns ...
The West Coast has had a funding injection of over $1.2 million from the Provincial Growth Fund, Under Secretary for Regional Economic Development Fletcher Tabuteau announced at Waitangi Day commemorations in Hokitika today. The PGF projects announced are: $800,000 to Development West Coast for a Grey District Regional Digital Hub ...
Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor has declared an adverse event for the Southland and Otago regions, unlocking Government support for farmers and growers. “Widespread flooding has resulted in severe disruption, with many people evacuated from their homes and many farms being affected by flood waters. It’s putting pressure on our farmers, ...
Alex Casey delivers her seventh power rankings for The Bachelorette NZ, where a group of intruders have herniated the competition’s intestines forever. Click here for previous instalments. Welcome back to The Bachelorette NZ, where everything is made up and every man is suddenly named Mike. Intruders! Five of them! A whole ...
By Felipe F. Salvosa II in Manila Solicitor-General Jose Calida asked the Supreme Court today to issue a gag order against ABS-CBN, claiming the Philippines’ largest television network was engaging in “propaganda” to sway the justices in the quo warranto case seeking to void its franchise. Calida filed the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Karen R Fisher, Professor, Social Policy Research Centre, UNSW Access to the National Disability Insurance Scheme (NDIS) for young children with disability is not equal across Australia. Where you live can hinder access to information about disability support, assistance to apply for ...
The New Zealand Union of Students’ Associations applauds the changes to the Residential Tenancies Act released by the government yesterday but does not believe that they go far enough to improving the rights of renters. The power imbalance in the current ...
The Prime Minister will take no action against Deputy Prime Minister and New Zealand First leader Winston Peters, after confirmation of a Serious Fraud Office investigation. ...
Eamonn Marra’s debut novel makes a study of the mundane: sanding a fence, heating baked beans, three pizzas for $29.99 delivered. Alie Benge reckons it belongs somewhere between Sally Rooney and Elena Ferrante. It was about page three of 2000ft Above Worry Level. A feeling burst inside me: the joy ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Suzie Gibson, Senior Lecturer in English Literature, Charles Sturt University The gothic developed as a European architectural phenomenon in 12th-century France, where awe-inspiring cathedrals reflected a world drenched in religious piety and superstition. Its veneration was revisited in 18th-century English literature, when ...
Financial services company Heartland Bank has reported a solid lift in its first-half profit driven by increased lending despite a squeeze on margins and rising costs. ...
We review the entire country and culture of New Zealand, one thing at a time. Today, e-bikes are now just a tap away! Josie Adams reviews the latest disruption in transport culture.When Lime launched in 2018, New Zealand’s transport culture got the electric shock it needed. For too long we’d ...
Ministers love to bray about the seizing of illegal drugs. Customs statistics on seizures last year – albeit “preliminary” statistics – therefore were irresistible to Customs Minister Jenny Salesa. They gave her a platform to remind us of her existence as a Minister while acknowledging the work of her officials. ...
The rise of ‘plant-based’ diets seems like a win for those who decry eating meat. But some vegan groups claim the halfway step of vegetarianism is ineffectual if you really care about animal cruelty, climate change, or your own personal health.An article in the Guardian last year asked “Why do ...
FIRST Union General Secretary Dennis Maga says that this morning’s comments from National Party Finance spokesperson Paul Goldsmith that the party would consider scrapping the Government’s proposed minimum wage increases if elected ...
The State Housing Action Network (SHAN) is deeply disappointed that the Government’s recently announced Aotearoa Homelessness Action Plan fails to provide for increases in the state housing stock which are essential for addressing the homelessness crisis. ...
Electricity retailers will no longer be able to entice former customers with steep and exclusive discounts, the Electricity Authority has announced. ...
The National Party leader Simon Bridges says it came as a surprise to him that the Serious Fraud Office prosecution relates to two $100,000 donations to the party. ...
National Party leader Simon Bridges says it came as a surprise to him that a Serious Fraud Office prosecution relates to two $100,000 donations to the party. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Denis Muller, Senior Research Fellow in the Centre for Advancing Journalism, University of Melbourne The federal court’s rejection of the ABC case against the Australian Federal Police raid on its Sydney headquarters in June 2019 reveals two issues of great importance to ...
Zero waste campaigners are petitioning the Government to take a more active stance in tackling Aotearoa New Zealand’s waste crisis, with a comprehensive ban on single-use disposable plastic food and drink serviceware, and a phasing in of accessible, reusable ...
“Callaghan Innovation’s $440,000 grant for an electric ferry design is pure corporate welfare,” says New Zealand Taxpayers’ Union spokesman Louis Houlbrooke. “If EV Maritime’s ferries present such good value, then why didn’t it get private ...
President Rodrigo Duterte takes legal action to shut down the biggest broadcaster in the Philippines in what is being described as the most severe attack on media freedom in the country. Video: Al JazeeraPacific Media Watch More than 500 journalists have gathered to protest threats to the survival ...
Pacific Media Centre Papua New Guinea’s Minister for State Enterprises Sasindran Muthuvel has reassured the nation that Air Niugini is taking all necessary steps to protect the country against the spread of coronavirus, reports EMTV News. “The airline has instituted a wide range of measures to minimise the risk ...
Our writers celebrate the best performances you can watch right now on NEON. Basically? They’re iconic.We all love a good story, and a great plot twist can turn a mediocre TV show into addictive weekly viewing. But what really keeps us coming back are the characters, and seeing actors at ...
National finance spokesperson Paul Goldsmith has refused to give details on the party's planned tax cut policy announced in a speech by leader Simon Bridges yesterday. ...
The owners of three properties in Twizel will have to sell-up after they failed to seek consent from the Overseas Investment Office (OIO). Vanessa Horne, Group Manager for the OIO, says a group of overseas investors bought the three properties, which ...
Editor’s Note: Here below is a list of the main issues currently under discussion in New Zealand and links to media coverage.New Zealand Parliament Buildings, Wellington, New Zealand.Today’s contentNZ First donations scandal Guyon Espiner and Kate Newton (RNZ): NZ First Foundation trustee was lobbying for donor Bryce ...
A Southland school has been criticised for requiring girls to see a counsellor before opting to wear shorts as their uniform. It’s merely a symptom of a bigger problem, Madeleine Chapman writes.On Sunday, Stuff reported that James Hargest College in Southland would soon allow girls to wear shorts or pants ...
The Manawatu Tenants’ Union’ (MTU) celebrates yesterday’s release of the Residential Tenancies Act Reform Bill, but challenges the Minister to stil go further to improving tenancy rights. The Bill would remove the ability for landlords to terminate a tenancy ...
The Government is putting together an $11 million package to offset the fallout from coronavirus and attract tourists from countries other than China. ...
Friends of Sherwood are asking that the following question be put to all voters: “ Should New Zealand stop using all cruel and inhumane poisons, such as 1080, brodifacoum, and PAPP, to kill wildlife because these toxic substances inflict intense and prolonged, ...
Organise Aotearoa will be joining rallies for abortion law reform, scheduled today in Wellington, Auckland, Christchurch and Dunedin. The National Day of Action is hosted by Fem Force - Feminist Action Aotearoa. “Nobody should be pressured to ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By S. Anna Florin, PhD candidate, The University of Queensland Australia’s first people ate a wide variety of fruits, vegetables, nuts and other plant foods, many of which would have taken considerable time and knowledge to prepare, according to our analysis of charred ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Nicholas Biddle, Associate Professor, ANU College of Arts and Social Sciences, Australian National University Last month, the Australian National University contracted with the Social Research Centre (SRC) to survey more than 3,000 Australian adults about their experiences and attitudes related to the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Megan Davis, Professor of Law, UNSW In his Closing the Gap speech to parliament last week, the prime minister injected some order and transparency back into the constitutional recognition process. The PM anchored his government’s work on the co-design of a Voice ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michael Woods, Professor of Health Economics, University of Technology Sydney Heavily subsidised aged care services used to be seen as a right and entitlement for all older Australians. But as aged care demand grows and costs rise, it’s becoming increasingly clear the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Carla Liuzzo, Sessional Lecturer, School of Business, Queensland University of Technology As a parent, I find it so frustrating to take my children shopping, reusable bags in hand, only to be offered plastic toys at the checkout. It’s an incredibly confusing message ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Gary Mortimer, Professor of Marketing and Consumer Behaviour, Queensland University of Technology The jingle used to tell us we loved “football, meat pies, kangaroos and Holden cars”. These days we love Japanese utes and small Toyotas, Hyundais and Mazdas more. Monday’s announcement ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Donna Mazza, Senior Lecturer in Creative Arts, Edith Cowan University Warning: this piece features frequent coarse language that may offend some readers. Since Adam Mansbuch’s 2011 bestseller, Go the Fuck to Sleep, book titles have been swearing profusely to grab audience attention. ...
Simon Bridges says National would cut taxes and invest much more than Labour in infrastructure, and with less waste. But he's holding back the detail, and got a key figure wrong. ...
Good morning and welcome to The Bulletin. In today’s edition: Creative accounting around the ETS explored, Ardern goes to ground on Peters, and ACT criticised for keeping donation from extremist.Often when reporting on technical and thorny pieces of legislation, it helps to have a specialist reporter looking into it. Stuff’s Charlie Mitchell ...
Planners and hazard experts talk to Newsroom’s Eloise Gibson about how climate change will impact Auckland, and how good planning can help the city adapt. ...
No matter how you measure it, science remains systematically biased against women – and ethnically diverse women even more so, writes Dr Hinemoa Elder.Women and girls in science, this is a public health announcement. You are entering unfriendly territory.Kia mataara, be vigilant. Keep your wits about you.There is irrefutable data ...
When it signed onto the Paris Climate Agreement, New Zealand pledged to increase its net greenhouse gas emissions by 10% across the 25 years to 2030. The latest government report shows with current policy settings it is on track to increase them by more than 20%. The challenge is acute ...
How are the children and grandchildren of Asian immigrants treading the line between immersion in a kiwi culture, and holding on to family traditions? ...
The $11 million tourism package announced after today’s Cabinet is a positive response. Auckland Business Chamber head Michael Barnett said possibly more important in the Prime Minister’s announcement was that further support was possible, as ...
By Joenner Paulo L. Enriquez and Ma. Alena O. Castillo in Manila Thomasian Jesuit priests Fr Albert Alejo and Fr Flaviano Villanueva have posted P10,000 (NZ$310) bail each after a judge issued a warrant of arrest in connection with their sedition case. “Nag-piyansa na kami Fr Flavie at sumama ...
Labour and NZ First are delaying a painful call on either lifting or cutting the annual residency visa limit, while the Greens want the limits removed completely. ...
Tame Impala’s new album The Slow Rush dropped over the weekend to universal acclaim. Jordan Hamel talked to the band’s frontman, Kevin Parker, about the five year gap between albums, and where the band fits into riock music in 2020.Kevin Parker’s musical baby Tame Impala steadily rose to indie prominence in the ...
Dr Bryce Edwards.NZ First is facing the boot at this year’s election, especially as it’s now embroiled in an unfolding donations scandal, which comes on top of low poll ratings. But what effect will the scandal have on NZ First’s government coalition colleagues? And is Labour and the Greens’ ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By David Jones, Climate Scientist, Australian Bureau of Meteorology After the intensely dry conditions of 2019, January and February have brought much-needed rain. Dams in many cities and towns were replenished and some farmers may be able to grow a crop for the ...
New Zealand’s trusted service for ageing well, Age Concern New Zealand, is receiving a New Year boost after inking an agreement with Perpetual Guardian to have the nation’s largest and most dominant trustee services company as the platinum sponsor of Age ...
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David Parker is pushing for a retirement age to go to 67.
I don’t think this will be an election winner. It certainly won’t help youth employment.
How about doing something more courageous, like means-testing?
Weird policy to win votes…who would support it? Maybe its courageous and responsible…but unfortunately unhelpful in getting votes.
Which it isn’t. It’s thinking which is locked inside the current neoliberal monetary framework and further evidence of why Labour is simply a centrist, fiscally orthodox party.
We can afford super to stay at 65 simply by having the government print $20M per week and putting it into the Cullen Fund.
Instead, the Labour Party’s proposal is to make people work longer for profit hungry capitalists, struggling with low paying jobs which are not there.
The fact that the UK Tory party wants to raise their retirement age too is just the icing on the cake.
“We can afford super to stay at 65 simply by having the government print $20M per week and putting it into the Cullen Fund.”
Then why not get $200 million a week printed and put onto the Super fund ?……. honest question.
Tinfoilhat, there is a negligible effect within the economy of ‘printing’ 20 million dollars a week, especially when such monies are in effect locked up to appear in the economy years away from that actual printing,
Interestingly,or not, the IMF in it’s initial report to Slippery’s National Government advised them to consider ‘printing money’ to bridge the negative effects of the Global Financial Crisis as opposed to borrowing the billions of dollars it so far has,
The 100–300 million dollars a week which was the negative effect of the GFC, if printed by the current Government would have had the effect of lowering the value of the NZ dollar, a good point for the countries exporters but not so good as far as imported goods are concerned,
Probably the most widely felt effect of this would have occurred at the petrol pump as a lower kiwi dollar value would have meant across the board fuel cost rises which would then have fed through into other costs to the consumer,
Putting aside the Green issue of the need to use less fossil fuels for the moment, the Government could have simply nullified this negative effect by printing a slightly larger amount of dollars than actually needed to cover the effects of the GFC and using that little extra to cover the cost simply lowered the fuel taxes which it collects equating to a 1/3 of the cost of fuel at the pump…
Thanks for the feedback – I agree that it would have been better to take the approach you suggest, along with reversing the tax cuts at the higher end.
Tinfoilhat, a large YES to the reversal of the tax cuts in the high end of the earnings scale which if accomplished along with ‘money printing’ instead of ‘money borrowing’ would have had the Government running a large surplus by now,
The added pluses would have been an export sector recording even greater profits off of the back of a devalued dollar,(and an even higher tax take accruing to the Government),
As stated above imported goods would become more expensive again off of the back of a devalued dollar which would result from printing money, the upside to this of course is that much of what we now import can be manufactured here so there would be some incentive to do so…
infoilhat
Dishonest question. DNFTT.
Grow up you twit
Perfectly honest question IMO.
It’s just uncomfortable to answer, because the answer is invariably “trust the government” or, more honestly, “no reason”.
Except at 930 an answer by bad.
$20M per week injected into the Cullen fund is more than enough to keep super at 65, probably beyond the year 2100, and that is the reason you do it at that level.
In other words, you fit the solution to the problem and size the budget needed appropriately, in order to achieve your goals and your social values. Its really simple.
This is what a country run by politics for society looks like, instead of a country run by orthodox economics.
The Cullen Fund buys international securities using NZ $. It trades NZ $ for US $ and other currencies to buy those securities.
What happens when suddenly the $NZ is worth less because of your money printing? Do you start propping it up by $22M/week? What about when other countries refuse to take our currency any more?
You mean like we are refusing to take US dollars because of their money printing, or renmimbi, because it is also printed.
Not to mention bank loans?
Hint: we’re not China or the US. Different rules for the big guys.
OK.
What is the difference between Westpac “printing” 100 million into buying houses, and the Government “printing” 100 million to put solar cells on houses, for example.
Apart from the fact that the solar cells have a return, which pays back the cost over time, making us richer, while the bank loan simply pushes up prices, and charges interest, which disappears offshore, and makes us all poorer.
Firstly, you speak of the NZD being worth less (as opposed to being “worthless”) as if it is a problem. It’s not. If it dropped in value by 20% to US70c a lot of manufacturers and ex pat Kiwis returning home would be very happy, for instance.
Secondly, almost every central bank in the world big and small has been manipulating their currency supply through various means. We’re simply too naive for words.
Thirdly, people all over the world need and want our dairy protein. To buy it they require NZD. We also have a productive economy which exports other products and sells valuable property using NZD. People want to buy NZ farms, they don’t want to buy farms in Zimbabwe. Hence demand for NZD ain’t going away any time soon.
Yes that is true, so we need to play smarter and faster, sometimes alongside the big boys, sometimes away on the sidelines.
KJT:
I love the way you use “printing.”
Because of course there is no printing. Simply electronic ledger operations.
When I pay $100 into KJT’s Westpac business account from my Westpac business account, all that Westpac does is increment’s KJT’s account by $100.
And decrements mine by $100.
In two separate, unrelated arithmetic operations.
If Westpac decides NOT to decrement my account by $100 guess what…it has just “printed” $100 into existence.
And the world did not get sucked into a resulting singularity.
NB Westpac doesn’t give a damn whether I pay KJT $1 or $10,000,000 because all that “money” (electronic numbers) doesn’t move from Westpac at all!
Westpac lends the money and takes security over the houses. If the loans don’t get paid back, with interest, it takes the houses. It tries very hard to only lend the money to people it think can pay it back, because it would prefer not to own houses (if it did, it’d just buy them itself). Westpac doesn’t lend money to any bum that walks in the door, or lend the money on just any shack.
The difference between that, and the government, is that there’s no risk, penalty, or limit on the government printing money. It can choose to print $20M a week. Or $22M. Or $42M. or $402M. There’s nothing really stopping it from printing as much as it wants.
@ CV: If the NZ$ dropped 20%, we’d see a spike in inflation. Similarly printing money itself is inflationary.
Probably not a great idea to talk about Zimbabwe when you’re talking about printing money. Also Zimbabwe no longer has its own national currency as a result of their money printing.
Or. We could just reverse some of the 7 tax cuts the wealthy have had since 1984.
Then we can afford, super, infrastructure, education and regional development, just as we did in the past.
What we cannot afford is the wealthy going on Hawaii holidays and financial gambling.
Kiwisaver and other private sector funds are likely to crash long before we really need them. And if they don’t all the retired people spending it into the economy at the same time will run up against resource constraints. Unless we, tax and spend, to build capability now
Exactly – We can balance the books without the eed for Austerity from a Labour government!!!!!
“Balancing the (government) books” is NOT a virtue!!!
In a country with a persistent current account deficit like NZ, it’s in fact crucial NOT to balance the books, because doing so will guarantee dramatic losses out of worker incomes, household savings and SME profitability.
+111
Yet another blind follower who centres all the issues of taxing the wealthy by paye tax scales. No wonder nz is troubled, divided and rule allow in fighting between the workers. Even those who some may consider to be earning obscene salaries still paye the highest marginal tax rate. How about how and where wealth is concentrated or created at the detriment to nz inc. or how different mechanisms are put into place to allow some to take advantage of what the state offers yet contribute nothing ?
Find out who the “real enemy” of nz inc/the state and place structures into effect to capture their contribution to nz. E.g. As a small token Nat did eliminate the stupidity of allowing depreciation to be deducted off an appreciating rental/investment property. But there are plenty of other areas that can be attacked.
Since when did I advocate ‘only’ changing PAYE tax scales?
I’ve talked about wealth taxes, FTT, CGT and land taxes, and various other ideas, including getting rid of the grossly regressive and locally anti-stimulatory, GST.
There is a preoccupation of high earners getting of in paying their fair taxes, and that this is assisted by various govts lowering threshold rates.
From your comment that I was responding to there was IMO a continuation of this. I don’t tr#ll through contributors to see what their history is, but will follow a thread to get a feel of how their commentary has evolved or been fleshed out by further comments. If a responses or comment I have made is either from a misunderstanding or I have missed the context I would appreciate a response in pointing out my error.
Well, I would answer if I knew what you were saying?
Sorry having issues with connections and hardware !!!
I did not see any references to your comments regarding extending or widening the tax base. Just your reference regarding the 7 tax cuts, which I took to mean that your only option was to increase the tax take to pay for increased spending.
It’s neither courageous nor responsible. What it is is putting the boot into people who’ve done manual labour all their lives.
Want courageous and responsible? Go for a Universal Income high enough to maintain a decent living standard and tax the bejeezus out of the rich. Continuing to kowtow to the rich is what’s causing all the suffering in NZ and the world.
Seconded.
In the last 30 years it became “courageous and responsible” for wealthy privileged white males in positions of power to smash the shit out of the working class, the underclass, and those in poverty – those who are of course typically disempowered, less educated and coloured.
What a load of amoral shite we’ve been swallowing as a society, thanks to our so-called “leaders.”
Well past time for our politicians to remember Matthew 25 and caroing for ‘the least of these.’
Exactly, that’s 3 of us here at the Standard thinking exactly the same thing this morning, Act have just come out announcing that they favor raising the age of Superannuation entitlement so we know that the policy of raising the age to 67 is part of the Neo-Liberal hangover,
amirite, you are right, if there is one impediment to Labour winning the 2014 election it is this one policy of raising the age of entitlement and my impression is at the least it is a 2% vote loser for Labour,
My view, Labour need back away from the policy NOW and with maximum publicity, sure Labour will cop a bit of negative publicity in the form of ”its a policy U-turn” etc etc, But, such an announcement need canvass the idea that Something HAS to be done surrounding the Superannuation issue with ‘means testing’ being firmly put as one of the options that has to be explored,
While there might be that initial burst of negative publicity those who have departed Labour over this issue, and i would suggest here that 2% of the voters might be the soft number and the reality is more likely to be 2–5%, will have been given a reason to return to the Labour fold,
i suggested back in 2011 that Phill Goff campaigning during that election on this very issue of raising the age of entitlement for super cost Labour 2% and the election and i do not resile from that belief,
i will go further this election and bluntly state that Labour will continue to be the Opposition until at least 2020 unless this policy is dropped, THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES, my preference IF change is needed, and i do not believe that Labour have put forward a narrative that successfully argues that need,would be for a means tested Superannuation which i think most would, given the options, believe to be a fair system of delivering future retirement income,
If David Cunliffe want’s to be the next Prime Minister of New Zealand then i would strongly suggest that the current Labour Party Superannuation Policy is the one major policy that will stop Him gaining that position…
Myself and others at Conference last year made similar points. Unfortunately the majority of the membership went happily along with the MPs.
Make that 4 of us here at the Standard this morning who see Labour’s raising the age of superannuation entitlement to 67 as an election loser???,
i am surprised that the ‘thinkers’ in the Labour Party,(there must be a few surely), did not identify this policy flogged by Phill Goff leading into the 2011 election as the cause of at least 2% of the vote having deserted Labour,
Anyone nearing the age of entitlement will have taken note of Slippery the Prime Minister’s promise not to raise the age of entitlement, and, the not insignificant fact that this is probably the one thing the PM,(besides the tax switch),has not blatantly LIED about nor fudged with some meaningless drivel about what the promise actually meant,
And, voted accordingly,
Ask anyone involved in the workforce in a Labouring type activity for most of their working life at which point their bones can no longer support such manual labour and most will tell you that once they hit 50 it is all downhill from there as far as ability goes,(my bones crapped out way earlier but then i was on the shovel mixing the concrete for house foundations at 14),
So for the manual labourers, those who provide the actual sweat in the economy even 65 is a long wait for an actual retirement and it is these workers who will be the most negatively effected by raising the age to 67,
i would tho suggest that it is ‘across the board’ of the broad electorate that Labour has lost a sizable slice of support,(2–5%), because of this one policy and the need is for the Party to back away from it Now and with the maximum amount of publicity along with a promise to fully canvass all the options in it’s first term of Government…
Make that 5.
6
7
8
9
10
I was highly annoyed when this proposed policy was being discussed and critiqued for alterations, and voted on for surpport at our LEC. I could not believe it was being supported and carried, I voted against ‘for the record’. My biggest concern were for the blue collar workers many who struggle to live to 65 let anlone having to carry on working on the tools a further2 years. Though people put the argument up if your unfit you will still be able to go on a benefit. I also thought of the young who are shut out of jobs because babyboomers wont call it a day. The impact of robotics & computerisation will see 50% of jobs lost for workers in less than 20 years anyway.
I think ‘means’ testing is a must, I know a billionaire who is probably claiming a pension by now. How the hell can this happen? What I paid my taxes so I’m entitled to be paid back by way of a pension? This is the attitude of too many wealthy people, no offense to babyboomers but some in this group need to get real and think of the following generations.
Skinny
I don’t like raising the age of retirement past 65 either, and in some cases it should be at 60, those on the old invalid benefit particularly, considered for this.
You are forgetting, or never learned, about the policy reasons for universal benefits. For the old age pension called superannuation, it is that there is equality of pension, everyone is entitled, the wealthy are getting the same now they are wealthy as they would had they suffered bad financial losses earlier. And there is no stigma to getting it.
At one time when you received charity as an old person, you were looked down on like a beggar. If you had no relative or patron that would or could maintain and house you were sent to finish your existence in the poorhouse with probably an Oliver-like existence of mean conditions, austerity and discomfort.
But CV is right. The return to that thinking of expansion of the good life for the wealthy with financial systems underpinning it, but for the poor a drawing in of purse strings, and ultimately a poorhouse mentality that excludes the old person from enjoyment of life by constantly raising the retirement age is harsh and deliberately wilful ignorance of alternatives.
One way to help the country progress, is for retired people to volunteer for about 15 hours a week, from a number of activities that assist their local Council, environmental, social, reading recovery, tourist assistance etc. Their productivity would be high as the cost would be low. And NZ would benefit. They would also. And the hours would lessen as they aged or were less fit.
Housing would be available that would be simple and suitable and valued annually starting at historical cost then just adding annual administration and maintenance charges each year plus whatever the CPI inflation rate was. With the profit taken from it, the Council could provide low-priced dwellings at a rent that covered all costs and was no burden on the rates. Without the profit, house inflation, and selling agents’ fees, a slew of costs are avoided. So more for the oldies, and sufficient money for a comfortable life with extras results.
It also fucks me off that Labour MPs, who are on high incomes, generous super plans and excellent Kiwi Saver schemes, would have the nerve to be taking money out of communities by cutting back super eligibility, all the while ignoring the massive excess labour pool/under-employment problem the nation is facing.
And yes I think that the policy will cost Labour up to 2% support, and confirms further to non-voters that the current Labour Party is full of clever intellectuals who have no idea of life in the real world where you don’t get employers handing over 20% top ups into your KiwiSaver scheme.
@ cv..
1..
phillip ure..
No problem with a billionaire getting a pension. So long as he is paying his fair share of taxes.
Universality is the best way to go.
While he gave the impression he paid his share of taxes in Australia. That didn’t appear to be the case in NZ. I knew his TB breeding operation in New Zealand was one big tax loophole. I knew of the former IRD man who worked the fiddle. There were plenty of rich listers milking that cow till it got closed out. Trouble is they just move on to the next rort, the majority all use colourful accounting practices. Shrilland could testify to that one!
@ CV
“Myself and others at Conference last year made similar points. Unfortunately the majority of the membership went happily along with the MPs.”
Thanks to you and those others for taking the time and making the effort to shift this one CV.
Sometimes you have to defy even your own institution and its leaders. People who do not realise this quickly fall prey to careerism.
Thank you BL.
Yeah… blue leopard, you know what Labour Conferences are like. If the MPs tell you to be lemmings and walk over the cliff with them then the delegates will…
The cynic in me says that Labour are only pushing the age increase to hold an opposing position in an attempt to embarrass John Key.
It’s hardly a policy to benefit their core constituency what’s a low wage manual worker going to do at 65? Go on the sickness benefit? Get heckled by Winz? plenty struggle to make 65 as it is….
… or implementing the living wage across the board. That would put an extra $10K a year in the hip pocket of those that need it most.
amirite-agreed, the raising of the retirement age to 67 is a significant vote loser. Parker seems to be blinkered on this.
It should be noted that the German Social Democrats, in their grand coalition deal with Merkel* just before Christmas, forced Merkel to drop her policy of raising the retirement/pension age to 67 and change it to a policy where it is possible to retire at 63 (if you have contributed for 45 years) rising to a retirement/pension age of no later than 65. Some details are here:
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304428004579350733617120864
It should be noted that the new policy (63-65) has widespread support among the German people (see article). Labour should change its policy to something similar, and fast.
Raising the age to 67 is also a barrier to a deal with Winston.
*unfortunate deal this-why didn’t they go with the Greens?
I don’t blame Labour for standing by this move. In terms of current fiscal policy, it is the responsible thing to do. National is being extremely cynical by refusing to address the issue, and just kicking it down the line for a future government to handle.
While I can understand the criticism here about the change in the age of Super entitlement, I think a lot of the reasoning behind this is pie-in-the-sky. Sure it is possible to raise taxes or print money to keep the Super age as it is, but I doubt these ideas would really get a lot of support among the general voting population. The only other option is to do what National is doing and that is simply irresponsible.
Fiscal policy responsibility? Seems like you are forgetting that the government exists for the benefit and wellbeing of the people. The people don’t exist to work for the govt, but raising the super entitlement age treats them exactly as if they do (or treats some classes of them).
And you seem to be forgetting that the government has to raise the money from somewhere to pay for the increased costs of super, be it raising taxes, cutting services or printing money, yet I doubt these suggestions will be well accepted by many voters.
Actually. It is goods and services for the elderly, that need to come from somewhere. Money is just the allocation mechanism.
We have ample food, housing, and workers. It is the money that is in the wrong places.
And that is where the government creating money and spending it into the economy can fix things as the money will be in the right places.
I think you will find there is a lot of support for making the wealthy pay their share of taxes.
And why not ask them. Why ask the country if they would rather use those other means of paying for super, or just keep putting the age up (it’s not like it’s going to stop at 67 right?). Use that as an opportunity to educate people about the various options we have for managing how we pay for things in this country instead of just reinforcing TINA and neoliberalism.
They pay more than their share of taxes. They pay almost all the taxes.
No we don’t.
Seconded.
In fact
The most taxes are paid by the middle cohort of PAYE payers.
And. The most wealthy often pay the least tax. As the IRD says, more than half of the wealthiest New Zealanders pay little or no tax!
And far to big a proportion by those who have almost no income.GST etc.
The highest marginal tax rate is levied on the poorest.
Taxes are payment for the services you receive from society.
The well off, have the benefit of the bulk of the services, so we should pay more tax.
Keep it at 65 and reintroduce estate taxes above a certain level. That way even the billionaire who gets it then has to cough up out of his estate, while the less wealthy get to preserve their wealth. Reverses trickle up.
Agree with amirite. It may be the right thing to do, but it definitely isn’t a politically clever thing to do.
I wish our current caucus were around in the 1970s. Phil Goff knows was around then so should remember what happened. Muldoon’s storm to victory in 1975 was entirely due to his massive superannuation bribe which we have been paying the price for ever since. He pandered to the greed of the middle aged and they voted en bloc for National.
Some sort of means testing is a far better way to go. In time it could be morphed into a later retirement age when people have latched on to the fact they are not going to diddled out of their entitlements.
It seems sometimes that each generation of Labour parliamentarians are destined to make the same mistakes as the previous. Greywarbler suggested a few days ago that some of us old hands should be approached by Labour’s strategy team and give them account of our knowledge and experiences. That would be a good idea but it won’t happen because each generation thinks they’re cleverer than the last.
Mark my words. A big push by Labour to arbitrarily lift the retirement age will kill them later this year!
Edit: having now read the comments I see I’m in good company.
Anne
I agree that this – raising the super age to 67 and beyond – (goody-goody little responsible Labour prostrating itself to old-time financial norms and motifs) would tilt the vote from its present upward rising angle.
And about Muldoon’s offer of old age benefits. They were too high and unaffordable so later had to be revised, but women preferred to go with Muldoon more because the Labour one as proposed by economic textbook reader Roger Douglas, was to be a payment based on earnings. And women at that time were very aware that they were discriminated against in the earnings tables, in employment opportunities, and were large in general poverty statistics. They would just continue into their old age in the same straitened circumstances they had always been kept in by The System called patriarchal and very male-oriented, not like now of course!
So looking at the whole issue on acceptance of Muldoon’s proposition rather than that of Douglas, changes the view slightly just as understanding the concept of universality and why the wealthy get the same super as the poor changes perceptions of that policy.
I kinda liked the idea of making super dependent on how long you have been paying taxes and means testing if affordability is an issue in the future. Early retirement should considered as an option for people who have had physical work most of their lives.
That would work quite well if the Govt ran a full employment policy.
Because now, what happens when you get made redundant at 55 and no one will take you on again?
What would happen to someone made redundant at 55? They’d get a lot of experience with officious little twits at WINZ offices sending them on employment courses, teaching them how to write CVs, and cutting their benefits every now and then. Purely to help them into employment of course. Because Dr. Aylward says that being on a benefit is as bad as being a heroin addict.
Why the hell does some neoliberal Rogernome fool that’s sneaked his way into the Labour Party think older people need two more years of this treatment? I find it hard to believe someone so bloody stupid wants to be in government, and find it even harder to think what use having him there would be.
“what happens when you get made redundant at 55 and no one will take you on again?”
You’re future is stuffed.
“Because Dr. Aylward says that being on a benefit is as bad as being a heroin addict.”
Idiot comment which shows he understand neither.
Is this just politics? Key says it is staying at 65 so Parker wants to raise a point of difference.
Every leftie should let their local Labour MP or candidate know this form of austerity is not acceptable for a left leaning Labour Party.
It is outrageous that they would attempt to balance the books by cutting social welfare entitlements. This is the kind of bullshit that Ruth Richardson would be proud of.
We can abalnce the books without austerity. It involves taxing those that have robbed the worked of this country for the past 30 years.
Soon people are going to want to work past 65 anyway, the whole idea of hitting that age and going out to pasture is thinking from 50 years ago.
A lot of boomers are hitting 60 and their careers are peaking, they’re not going to shut up shop in 5 years.
Labour just need to back up raising the retirement age with robust help for people who can’t work into their 60s and 70s due to the nature of their jobs/health/life.
True but that just means that a Universal Income with no superannuation fits even better.
But most are are hitting 60 and finding that they can’t work any more due to physical disability caused by their working.
And get into the same problem that targeted benefits have always caused – massive attacks from the greediest and ever increasing amounts of administration that will achieve sweet FA. Just as we’re seeing now from this government against beneficiaries – beneficiaries that exist solely because this government runs policies that ensure 6% or more unemployment so as to keep wages low.
Yeah I agree, but I’m running on the assumption that they don’t have the nads to implement a UI which would be a best case scenario.
Further to the debate some days ago regarding measles and the rationale for immunising, now 19 cases at a single Auckland school
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11209216
Bet you that a quarter or more of those who are sick had also received vaccinations.
Why is that relevant ?
Seeing as I know the answer to that question can I ask how much you’d like to wager ?
Oh do share, in that case. Both the fully vaccinated number and the partially vaccinated number who got sick, please.
You answer my questions first ..
… then I’ll happily answer yours
Why withold public information in the hope of making a quick buck 🙂
One partially vaccinated the remainder not vaccinated.
Now can you answer my first question as to the relevance of your initial comment in this thread ?
Thanks, and I know I was being a bit of a pain, but its good to have a professional like yourself give details which the news did not report.
My inital comment was around my expectation that the MMR vaccination almost always gives less than 95% protection against exposure to measles, and possibly way less.
The numbers you suggest in this latest incident suggest that the protective ability of the vaccination was actually very high at this particular school at this particular time, although it is not possible to tell without knowing the exact numbers of vaccinated and unvaccinated in the school.
“My inital comment was around my expectation that the MMR vaccination almost always gives less than 95% protection against exposure to measles, and possibly way less.”
Your expectation is incorrect 2 doses of the current MMR vaccine as per the MoH guidelines (15 months and 4 years) will provide an immunity level to Measles at close to 99% even a single dose at 12-15 months will provide immunity to over 90% of recipients.
If you have no immunity to measles and come into contact with the live virus you have around an 80% chance (from memory) of becoming ill
Yes. In the United States and the United Kingdom, I believe it’s on record that the current MMR has a 95% immunity rate at one dose and 99% at two.
I’d like to know the answer too.
Mine or his/hers ?
I’d like to know how many of the reported cases were people that had been vaccinated. Be good to look at age and socio-economic status too.
I guess that you have all heard the latest report. I think school was Lakeland High School. As I remember 8 cases were from children entering school from overseas and then there were further who caught from the original eight. I think that they are checking 700 people in the Auckland area.
Do we need to have a compulsory measles vaccine plus for any other common nasty on those coming to the country? It is very expensive for us to fight off these events. When you go overseas you have to comply with health requirements and get yellow fever jabs etc. What about having that here? Why not?
Jabbing immigrants would be a useless measure without jabbing all tourists, too.
Which will give us a friendliness rating similar to the TSA in the states.
That’s one solution to tourism.
Goes with out “100% pure” waterways…
Seeing that we don’t feel friendly to people who bring in diseases from their country of origin, I don’t see that immigrants would be worse off from having compulsory vaccination. If they want to come here, they still will choose to do so. The vaccinations would have to be given under optimum health requirements, ie when the person is not already sick with something else. I understand that the virus doesn’t work well then.
It’s not enough to go around with good, happy, positive thoughts about things, these are not efficacious against disease McFlock. Action for protection is required using human intelligence, not just responding to problems with spurious reasons for retaining wishful thinking and doing nothing. Tourists who get sick, get lost, actually cost us more money than they bring in. We don’t want them introducing disease, and there is no reason why we could not insist upon vaccination when considered advisable.
at 2.5mil visitors a year, it’s probably just cheaper to make sure we’re vaccinated, rather than processing vaccination confirmation slips for everyone – then having an nzer go visiting elsewhere and bringing something back (either unvaccinated or 1% where it didn’t take).
For sure McFlock but that is looking at cheapness etc. not whether it is a good idea that would be beneficial to us. Immigrants are future residents, and deserve to be cared for against disease outbreaks, just as we deserve to be protected against any serious ones they are likely to bring with them. That would be beneficial to us all. Tourists may have to be treated or barred if coming from a high-risk area or there is an outbreak of a problematic disease.
And quoting an exception indicates a rule doesn’t it? A NZr returning with something – that’s always a possibility. But not a certainty. And no reason to throw one’s hands in the air and say it’s not perfect – we can’t do anything.
My point is that making vaccination mandatory for immigrants as a visa requirement is redundant, because they are not the only vector. Doubtful even a significant one. And their numbers are too low to impact on herd immunity. So it can wait until they arrange primary healthcare providers..
yup…my son was vaccinated for mumps and whooping cough……and got both…
imo .this in fact is dangerous ( just like kids being vaccinated for meningitis) because it lulls parents and kids ( and their bodies ) into a false sense of security and they are not on the look out for the virus…which may actually be more severe because it has mutated
….measles mutates (from a medical book a doctor loaned me…if i remember correctly….. some university students in the USA have been vaccinated 4x for measles and they still contract different strains…and some of them are more severe than if they had had the virus naturally as a kid
……meningitis has at least 40+ different strains
…getting the wild variety of measles without vaccination…actually immunises you for life
i am not against all vaccines or vaccinations however
One concern is that the skills to managing measles and other similar communicable diseases get lost from the community. I’m in my late 40s, so had measles, mumps and rubella naturally as a child. My siblings all did too. Mum and Dad knew what to do to help us recover, as did most of their peers. I would guess that those skills are pretty much lost outside of the communities that don’t vaccinate intentionally.
The other issue of course is poverty. By all means make vaccines available and accessible, but for gods sake look at the role that standard of living plays in disease and how changing that affects all diseases.
weka +100 …totally agree
vaccination should be a choice ….and if i were living in a poor overcrowded situation with 5 kids …i would be vaccinating for everything….it really is the easy way out in the short term….but long term consequences are unknown and side effects are not catalogued….it is great for health departments and governments who can not or will not address poverty
And vaccinations are least effective in the poor living in poor conditions with insufficient nutrition. A compromised immune system is compromised, no matter what drugs you pump it with.
No incorrect.
Well that’s not what the University of Virginia Health System reckons
http://uvahealth.com/blog/2014/01/14/malnutrition-diarrhea-reduced-breastfeeding-polio-vaccine-fails-developing-countries/
“And vaccinations are least effective in the poor living in poor conditions with insufficient nutrition. A compromised immune system is compromised, no matter what drugs you pump it with.”
That is complete bullshit.
I’m not going to agree with that one CV. People with poverty compromised immunity don’t usually have the resources to manage illnesses when they happen, so are much more at risk from serious complications. Doubly so (compromised immunity, lack of resources).
In NZ there is also the issue of whether Maori and Pacific Islanders have adapted to the diseases that are relatively recent in evolutionary terms. I don’t know what work has been done on that, but I think those communities have the right to make their own decisions.
In the absence of fixing poverty, I think give people a wide range of information, and the tools and resources that give them choice (vaccinations and alternatives). Then let those families and communities decide.
Just to clarify weka, which is the specific sentence of mine that you disagreed with?
I thought there was an inference of something following on from Chooky’s comment, but reading it again I can see there probably isn’t. Sorry bout that.
Ah great. CV proving he doesn’t understand how vaccines work… sigh
Gotta love how the anti-vaxxer debates expose the scientifically illiterate…
Oh look here’s something else – rotavirus vaccine appears to be much less effective in developing countries with poorer populations, than in developing countries.
Learn something every day eh mate?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20622508
And you use this link as an argument against vaccines?
-_-
The dumb, it burns. It may show decreased efficacy in developing rather than developed nations but a pooled efficacy in developing nations of 51% when talking a disease that causes 500,000 deaths per year is not to be fucking sneezed at.
Just… what… the… fuck…
Seriously…
I wondered CViper do you have your own blog site?
“.but long term consequences are unknown and side effects are not catalogued….”
That is simply incorrect.
Measles vaccines led to a >99% reduction in the United States of America according to the Center for Disease Control and Prevention.
An over 99% reduction.
If that was the only issue that would be great.
“Further to the debate some days ago regarding measles and the rationale for immunising, now 19 cases at a single Auckland school”
At a single high school. Why are kids getting measles at that age instead of preschool or early primary?
Do you really want me to explain it to you or do you want to have a little think and figure it out yourself.
It was a rhetorical question with a point.
You’d better explain it to me then as you’ve lost me I’m afraid.
I think you understand very well.
nope
I’m not playing that game dude. I saw how you interacted with CV at the start of this conversation and I can’t be bothered. Engage genuinely and I will too.
As I said before you have lost me.
I think you may be missing the points, both of you.
Doc, I think Weka means that if these kids had been allowed to catch measles younger they’d be better off.
On the other hand vaccination would have protected them in 99% of cases. Maybe measles might even join smallpox.
Ah OK thanks for that.
“I think Weka means that if these kids had been allowed to catch measles younger they’d be better off.”
How would they be better off?
Because idiot parents who swallowed the flawed conclusion of a study that found a link between measles vaccine and autism. The study has been proven wrong but the damage is lasting..
Here, this article will explain this First world problem better than I ever could:
http://www.livescience.com/43577-why-rich-educated-parents-avoid-vaccinations.html
If I had children I would choose to not vaccinate them for measles (assuming we weren’t in the conditions that Chook describes), and it has little to nothing to do with the MMR or autism.
Then what is your reason weka? There are some vaccines that it may be arguable that their effects are negligible and potentially not worth the expense, but in the case of the MMR vaccine, I have yet to hear a valid argument against it.
I tire of the vaccination debate because it so completely encompasses the stupidity of selectively choosing which scientific results to listen to.
Herd immunity is reliable, not perfect.
That is why everyone who can be should be immunised
umm because they were not vaccinated as kids?
When people on the left doubt vaccinations or fluoridation, I just shake my head. We’re the politics that embrace knowledge and science, not superstition and ignorance.
There’s very little difference between a vaccination-sceptic/fluoride-sceptic and a climate change denier.
All of them ignore science and cling to some primeval human fear that doesn’t deal with evidence.
I agree it is depressing.
LOL
you do know that not all vaccinations are of the same value and safety right?
you do know that the majority of countries in the OECD do not fluoridate, right?
I mean, it sounds like YOU who are ignoring the facts here, in favour of a religious, faith based orthodoxy.
The reason that a lot of countries don’t fluoridate is because it occurs naturally in a higher quantify than in New Zealand.
Before I moved here, my dentist in the UK told me “you’ve got to be careful because the water in New Zealand is too -pure-. If they’re not adding fluoride, you’re going to need to do it yourself.”
Which is fine. I’m fine with adding it myself. People in lower income families might struggle to do that. Anti-fluoride is adversely affecting the worst off in our society.
So maybe don’t call yourself left-wing or liberal anymore.
The thing I really love about flouridation is that the only demonstrated side-effect of flouride in water at <1ppm (dental fluorosis, usually white patches on teeth) occurs at higher rates in non-fluoridated areas of NZ than in fluoridated areas. As well as decay rates being higher.
Which suggests that water fluoridation is the safest way to provide that essential nutrient.
“All of them ignore science and cling to some primeval human fear that doesn’t deal with evidence.”
The thing that really bothers me is that the people who believe that science is the only true way to understand something, then go and apply such ridiculous logic. If you think that all people who don’t want to vaccinate their kids are anti-science or ignorant of science, then you really have little understanding of the communities that choose to not vaccinate and probably shouldn’t be expressing an opinion about them. I can understand your frustration because the anti-vac websites do often come across as scientifically illiterate and rabid with it, but you can’t extrapolate that to the whole population. Further, there is plenty of bullshit happening on the ‘we must vaccinate everyone’ side, and I suspect you are blind to that because of your ideology.
What do you think are the main reasons that parents choose not to vaccinate ?
The main reasons i’ve come across in no particular order are..
Religious/spiritual reasons
Fear of vaccination side effects
Belief in natural immunity
Medical reason preventing immunisation
Belief that there is no need to vaccinate
Forget to have it done
If we just look at the people that choose from an informed place (so leave out people that forget, don’t have access, religious prohibition etc), then I would say that most of the people I know made the choices because of a range of the following (in no particular order)
they don’t believe that vaccinations don’t have adverse affects on overall health.
they are concerned about adverse reactions.
they believe that illnesses like measles are normal childhood events
that having measles creates a challenge for the immune system that is important for lifelong health, and that if you avoid all illness you compromise immunity/health.
they believe that being ill is a normal part of life and that it’s not possible to make the world completely safe, nor is it desirable to try.
they believe that reductionist science is not the only way of understanding the world and tend to have a much broader understanding of health care models than most GPs.
I would add that I can’t think of anyone I know who chose to not vaccinate who didn’t also take other measures with regards to protecting their child’s health ie not vaccinating is not a passive process.
Many parents I know who have chosen to not vaccinate also make the decision on a case by case basis, depending on the vaccine, and the issues involved in that particular illness.
One or two out of every 1,000 children infected with measles will get pneumonia or meningitis and die, it could be your child or your niece, so tough? Is the risk of not vaccinating them worth it?
There are children that can not be vaccinated for physiological reasons and that’s fine, but all others have no reason to risk the lives of their children when prevention is at hand.
“One or two out of every 1,000 children infected with measles will get pneumonia or meningitis and die, it could be your child or your niece, so tough? Is the risk of not vaccinating them worth it?”
You are assuming that it’s not possible to prevent those two kids getting ill by other means.
I said, “I would add that I can’t think of anyone I know who chose to not vaccinate who didn’t also take other measures with regards to protecting their child’s health ie not vaccinating is not a passive process”. So no, it’s not just a case of tough.
“You are assuming that it’s not possible to prevent those two kids getting ill by other means.”
Do you know of some other means from preventing Measles amongst someone who has not be immunised or had the disease previously – apart from the obvious method of keeping them isolated from anyone who is infectious ?
I wasn’t talking about preventing measles. Amirite implied that complications like pneumonia or meningitis are inevitable in those two children referred to. I’m saying that there are other factors at play in addition to the measles infection and the bacteria, where interventions can be used.
such as?
Thanks for that, it’s an interesting list and IMO stays more about my profession and public health in general inability to communicate the benefits and risks of vaccination amongst all the other information that people are bombarded with these days.
Nope. I’m of the generation that was making these decisions before the internet. I have a pretty good understanding of the medical and public health issues involved in the pro-vaccination argument, and I even agree with some of it. Many of the people that I know who don’t vaccinate their kids are also well informed about what the pro- arguments are.
“Many of the people that I know who don’t vaccinate their kids are also well informed about what the pro- arguments are.”
Well no they’re not otherwise they wouldn’t come up with such counterintuitive, spurious and frankly incorrect reasons against immunisation such as those you’ve listed.
Ok, let’s all bow down to the doctor God 🙄
I guess your argument is kind of understandable because I’m pretty sure you have no idea about most of the things I listed.
No I’m sure you ‘real world’ experience is far more useful.
Far more useful than what?
You’ll like this one.
“they believe that illnesses like measles are normal childhood events” <– it is thinking like this that means that we were nearly at the point of eradicating measles and now it is making a comeback so that childhood suffering can once again be enjoyed by all.
The same has now happened with smallpox. We thought we had it beaten, now it is back. What next – polio? That’s a normal childhood illness right? Just sucks for those that end up on iron lungs (or modern equivalent) – but that’s all part of childhood.
The stupidness of the “normal childhood events” argument makes my head hurt because if we can prevent disease, we should. It improves the health of our community and greatly increases the prospects for the lower classes of society because their children spend less time sick and have more energy/development available for attempts at social mobility.
As someone on the left, highly successful vaccines represent one of the greatest advancements of medical science in the past 100 years for evening out the playing field somewhat.
You think that polio and measles are comparable childhood diseases? Seriously? And you want to call people who don’t vaccinate their kids stupid?
Honestly, I can’t begin to imagine in what world you would think that polio was a normal childhood illness and then compare it to measles /facepalm.
NB polio infection is overwhelmingly asymptomatic (or sometimes mildly flu-like) in healthy people of good nutrition and incomes.
A small proportion of individuals however suffered serious long lasting adverse infects from infection. Somewhere between 1:50 and 1:1000 I think.
shame if you’re in that 1:50, though.
And the adverse reaction rate for the vaccine?
….and dont most of us carry the meningitis virus around in our throats anyway …..it is only in a small percentage that it becomes actively virulent
…it would be better to study why and how it turns malevolent and becomes an epidemic…….rather than the vaccinating the whole population willy nilly
( maybe it interacts with other viruses, even vaccinations…or maybe the psychology/stress of the individual/group has something to do with it)
Best to do both. Because it might go bad for a small percentage, but it fucks them up badly. Because while we work on the “maybes” (maybe Saturn’s orbit has something to do with their chi), 4 kids a year die and dozens are hospitalised.
Actually, they have both been combated by vaccines and for the majority (as CV states) the polio virus didn’t have a serious effect – but for those that did suffer from it, it was crippling. In the time period prior to the vaccine for it being developed, it was considered a normal childhood illness, who are you to suddenly be arbitrator of what is a normal childhood illness and what isn’t? What are your criteria? The only criteria I am using is “can you get this illness as a child”…
In the not too distant past it was also ‘normal’ for a relatively high percentage of women to die during childbirth and for a relatively high number of children to not make it past their childhood.
What gets me with folk like Zorr and CV is that they (I assume – I stand corrected if this is wrong) rightly deride climate change deniers for ignoring the science, yet do exactly the same with vaccinations.
What is the difference? I think because vaccines are a product of science (and pharmaceuticals companies) they fear or do not understand. Whereas climate change is caught up in fossil fuels use which they think is eveil as a matter of course.
Anyway whatever it is scary.
northshoredoc – I admire your persistence but you might consider giving up – you will get nowhere 🙂
uh srylands – I am pro-vaxx – get it right 😛
I don’t think all vaccines are equal (and cost-benefit analysis does need to be done with any medical treatment) but the benefits of vaccination greatly outweighs the negatives.
There is, however, the issue of Big Pharma and that medical research should be compensated for its work but it shouldn’t be given the opportunity to extort obscene profit.
Sorry, but that is just disingenuous in the extreme. You take a phrase that I used, put it in another context and then put your own spin on it.
(I like the childbirth example though. You know what reduced mortality? Increased standard of living).
Let’s change the language then. Rate the seriousness of measles compared to polio.
“The only criteria I am using is “can you get this illness as a child”…”
Yes, that’s why you don’t understand what I wrote. But it’s not about you. I was asked to say what I thought the reasons where for some to not vaccinate. If you are really interested in understanding why intelligent, informed parents choose to not vaccinate their children, I’m happy to keep talking with you. You don’t have to agree with what I or they say, but I’m not that interested in arguing with you when you won’t even understand the basics of their decisions.
So please, enlighten me. What are they using as the basis for their decision making other than emotive reasoning?
You are the one who chooses to use measles as an example of an “ordinary childhood disease” but then, because the damage of polio is so much worse, choose to not rate that as an “ordinary childhood disease”. There is so much illness and suffering that has been avoided because of the widespread use of effective vaccines – smallpox being yet another example. What about whooping cough?
The ones that are most adversely affected by the refusal to vaccinate are also our most vulnerable.
What do you mean by emotive reasoning?
I tend to define emotive reasoning as the decision making made by the heart as opposed to the head (if one were to still use such an archaic division). In this instance though, the anti-vaxx movement relies on evoking an emotional response to the issue rather than encouraging a well-considered review of the evidence because if they were to rely on rational reasoning, they would lose. The balance of scientific evidence is overwhelmingly on the side of vaccination but this argument continues to crop up.
It shares a lot in common with the climate denier movement as another field of science where experts continue to have to battle well-funded “think tanks” full of ideological morons that continue to endanger the population.
Ok. I think we should clear this up. I’m not part of the anti-vac movement, I’ve never had anything to do with them other than reading occassionally on websites but I have a pretty low tolerance for them so tend to stay away now. I couldn’t tell you what I think about them other than that (for instance, I’m assuming they’re not all scientifically illiterate, but I have no idea what percentage). I’m guessing that you don’t have much idea either.
Likewise, most of my generation thought these things through before the internet and while there was already an anti-vac movement in NZ by then it wasn’t something that was pushing people’s choices.
As for the heart. I don’t have a problem with people making heart decisions so long as they balance that with some evidence too. In fact there is increasing evidence that the heart is a very good mechanism for decision making in general, and that using hard cold rational thinking without any heart is just as detrimental as the other way round. The biggest point of difference I see between you and I is that seem to believe that the only valid evidence comes from hard science. That is an unscientific belief.
+1000 thanks weka …could not have put that better myself …also know very well educated people who have chosen not to vaccinate…and it is proactive and no the easy way out ( certainly not child abuse)
…as it happens I did vaccinate my children albeit delayed …….but i had a doctor who didnt believe in it!….i went against this doctor’s advice …but it was accepted with respect after i had studied quite a lot of literature ( so the medical profession is not united on this issue).
..in the end i made the decision out of some expediency because of pressure from the creche the children went to in the mornings….i still wonder if I made the right decision with my partner because my son has some signs of Aspergers
( as it happens thankfully by delaying the vaccinations we missed out on a vaccine which the govt was using which had been rejected in Hong Kong? or Singapore or Japan ? as having adverse side effects….and it had been used in those countries on older children not very little babies)
“because my son has some signs of Aspergers” – you do realize that Andrew Wakefield has now been fully discredited and exposed as a fraud and conman who was in it for the money? Who deliberately misreported and manipulated results to make his claims?
Also, this:
http://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/publications/10measles.pdf
Immunization is helping.
..well sorry i dont know anything about Andrew Wakefield …i am just making an observation…..and i am very grateful my doctor recommended not vaccinating him when he was a very little baby…and thank goodness it is very mild ….almost normal…in fact probably normal ….and possibly nothing to do with vaccinations….but the signs have been/are there nevertheless
i really find it quite bamboozling how some people get so irate/dogmatic /put downish/authoritarian when others express some scepticism and doubts about vaccinations for everything and everybody…talk about open minded doctors /scientists always being professionally open minded a la Karl Popper ….now that really is a myth!
….but i guess it is a multi billion dollar business and doctors do get golden handshakes for every child they vaccinate….and there are a many others with vested interests in the vaccination loop…say no more.
Do you want to know why people like myself get so irate? Because we are constantly barraged by the idiocy of “balance” – that someone who feels strongly about vaccines is given the same air time and treatment as qualified medical researchers. That Koch-funded climate change deniers get to share the air waves in the mainstream media with climate scientists that have spent the last 30-40 years studying and researching.
If you were presenting any science, then I would be sitting here open mindedly reading and clicking any little bit of info you provided. But you’re not – in your comment you made a possible link between your sons Aspergers and vaccinations – whether you know who Andrew Wakefield is or not is beside the point because that is where that little piece of misinformation has derived from.
Science asks questions and then tries to answer them through investigation and analysis. It requires an open mind. What it does not need to do though is accept every random brain fart as equally valid.
lol +1
You do realise that Andrew Wakefield and his publications have zero bearing on what Chooky commented about their son?
You seem to be implying because Wakefield was declared a fraud by the establishment, that Chooky must somehow be wrong in making the comment about aspergers characteristics.
Try and think scientifically dude.
Andrew Wakefield was the medical “researcher” behind the paper that originally linked ASDs and the MMR vaccine. It has now been as completely and utterly retracted as is even possible.
Show me any other peer-reviewed research that displays any link between autism spectrum disorders (like Aspergers) and vaccines? I’m happy to wait.
Sure, I know that, but this discussion is really quite funny. And you pride yourself on being scientific?
But insist that if something is not written up in one of your peer reviewed bibles, then the phenomena cannot exist or have happened in real life?
And here I thought that formal science was supposed to be the study of the natural world, not the other way around.
Name a phenomena? Please do.
The fact that you are already referring to peer reviewed journals as “bibles” shows how much stock you put in scientific process and decent research.
Decent research?
What’s decent research got to do with it? Decent research would actually involve being curious about self reports like Chooky’s. Not being instantly dismissive.
So if it’s not in your precious tomes, it not only doesn’t – but it can’t – exist, is what I just read from you.
That’s very clearly a kind of religious faith masquerading as science and rationality.
No. Just no.
Anecdata can be a leap pad for further research but once disproven, should not continue to be used as such. The fact that you are unwilling to discuss Andrew Wakefield is one of the surest signs that you are ignoring the evidence.
His premise of a link between vaccines and autism has now been so thoroughly disproven during his fall from “researcher” to fraud that it gets almost as close to a proven negative that science is capable of. This is why I so immediately dismiss Chooky’s anecdote and even the anti-vaxxers that I know personally who are well-educated steer well clear of the autism link stuff these days because they are aware that even in their circles it automatically invalidates anything else they may say.
If you want the links to research disproving the linkage, I can go dig them up. But then again, you’re not that interested in science – you seem to be only interested in defining what science isn’t rather than accepting what science is.
So one bad researcher with poor or fraudulent methods, in your eyes automatically discredits everyone else who puts forward a comment about their own experience with their own children. Now these kinds of parents are either misguided, lying or just plain wrong.
Good oh. You sciency types know best.
You are completely ignoring what I am saying – as I expected CV. I am saying that his completely flawed study propelled other researchers to investigate – and their investigations showed the complete lack of a link.
As you are so wont to say – do try to keep up.
He was the only researcher to get those results.
So what is the experience parents have with their children?
“A was vaccinated with B, then we noticed A had ASD, therefore B caused ASD”?
ASD is relatively common (around 150/100k in NZ). Vaccination rates are around 90%. Easily detectable effect, if it existed. But nobody has seen it. Other than a fraud selling a competing vaccine, of course.
The fact that CV thinks that a pseudonymous comment on a blog with an n=1 is an important piece of scientific information tell us all we need to know about his knowledge of science.
Because Wakefield was actually a fraud, it means that people claiming their kids might have caught an ASD because of a vaccine have exactly zero evidence to support that theory.
And yet almost every single case of measles is linked to a lack of vaccination.
Meaning I suppose no one in the establishment is interested and they can turn a blind eye.
only sometimes, and only in some circumstances and countries, McFlock.
“only sometimes, and only in some circumstances and countries, McFlock.”
In fact most of the time and in most circumstances and countries.
You might be interested in the website below which follows various outbreaks over time, very clever site
http://healthmap.org/en/
No, meaning that if someone who wasn’t trying to sell their own vaccine actually managed to demonstrate the association Wakefield “found” but without using fraudulent data, they’d be in line for the Nobel Prize and a range of other awards.
But as it is there’s no evidence and no biological theory as to why it might exist. You might as well state that you know someone who might have caught autism because of Saturn’s orbit.
“You might be interested in the website below which follows various outbreaks over time, very clever site.”
Give up. In my experience Colonial Viper is immune to reason.
“Now these kinds of parents are either misguided, lying or just plain wrong.”
Yes you got it. That is exactly correct.
“that Chooky must somehow be wrong in making the comment about aspergers characteristics”
That you think he could be anything other than wrong is extremely concerning.
“reductionist science”
Well sure. Physics is quite reductionist, for example. Biology, medicine, not so much.
Reading the rest of the list reminded me of that phrase about truth taking time to get its boots on.
The fact is some of these beliefs are just as noxious as neoliberalism. Noxious as in “deadly”. Northshoredoc is talking prudent medical good sense, but I sense their exasperation.
However, the list was written generically and vaguely enough that I have no idea what your rejection is based on. Why not address individual points and see if you even now what I was talking about?
“Well sure. Physics is quite reductionist, for example. Biology, medicine, not so much.”
It’s all relative I guess. Compare conventional western medicine to other models of medicine and it appears very reductionistic.
Do these other models of medicine demonstrate similar (cf: life expectancy) success rates?
Perhaps you could point to some recent advances in traditional medicine, for example?
Life expectancy is generally related to standard of living. You improve diet, housing, sanitation etc and people live longer (partly because they don’t get infectious diseases due to improved immunity and decreased exposure). However living longer means people are more likely to have chronic illness. Western medicine isn’t that great at treating a lot of chronic illnesses, which is why one of the very common things you hear from alternative practitioners is that they get so many people who come to them once things are really bad and their doctor tells them there is nothing more to be done.
I’m not aware cross cultural comparisons of the kind you are suggesting, although they may exist. Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) is a good example of another model. It’s been in existence for thousands of years and is highly successful at what it does. But comparing it to Western medicine doesn’t really make sense to me because they serve different purposes. If I broke my leg, I would go to A and E and get xrays and painkillers and a cast. But if I had menopausal hot flushes that were ruining my life, I would go to someone like a TCM practitioner. You could then say, ok let’s do some RCTs on hot flush treatments, both western and TCM, but you are really comparing apples and oranges. Which might be a valid thing to do so long as it’s explicit that that’s what is happening.
(if I lived in China and I broke my leg, I would go to A and E and see a TCM practitioner. So there is one thing, it is possible to integrate these systems. We are just bad at it in the West).
When these arguments come up, the scienceheads want the RCT evidence alone. I prefer to also listen to the person who was suffering and whether they were helped or not. Not all evidence comes from RCTs.
Beyond that there are a whole lot of cultural issues, both western/asian, and reductionist/holistic, that are probably beyond this conversation.
“Perhaps you could point to some recent advances in traditional medicine, for example?”
There’s some really good work being done around phytotherapy and treating bacterial infections. Many plants have antibacterial properties that match antibiotics, but they don’t appear to cause bacterial resistance. Use of plants to treat bacterial infections is not new, but there are some interesting layers being added in response to MRSA etc.
…and this is different from the “reductionist” medicine that gave us digitalin, penicillin, and genetics how? You’re going to have to do better than “come up with something from the natural world” as a distinction, because physicians have been doing that forever.
The big difference between drugs and plants, with regards to treating bacterial infections, is that plants are a complex range of chemicals and drugs aren’t. This is why bacterial resistance occurs with antibiotics but doesn’t with plants. Herbalists understand this because they think about the whole plant. Scientists got the antibiotic thing right (single substance, well targeted), but then fucked it up. If they had thought about the holistic approach as well, we would have kept the antibiotics for serious situations, and used herbs for treating other, easier to resolve infections. It’s the world view of scientists* that has prevented this from happening, and instead we have squandered the amazing usefulness of antibiotics in less than a century.
*including antagonism from medical doctors towards traditional and alternative pracitioners. If you really want to understand why we ended up with this divide, research what happened to professional development of medicine in the 1800s in the US.
“Further, there is plenty of bullshit happening on the ‘we must vaccinate everyone’ side”
Incorrect.
I don’t normally advocate banning things. The Greens are so good at it. But I would simply ban all unvaccinated children attending school. They can all be home schooled.
People that don’t vaccinate their kids are irrational and they pose a danger to everyone else. They deserve to be treated the same as moon landing deniers and 911 consipiracy theorists.
Speaking of irrationality and complete disrespect for parents making their own choices in raising their own children, you top the list right here.
But big pharma appreciates your lobbying for more millions in tax payer dollars.
Which parental choices in raising their own children would you disrespect?
Pharma companies make very very little out of the vaccines we are discussing far more money for them in the oral treatment of chronic diseases – the argument you’re running really is a red herring.
Is that so? Not much money in vaccinations? Please remind me how much the MeNZ B programme, which was a single one off programme, cost NZ tax payers.
Clue: it was on the order of half a dozen brand new regional hospitals.
And here’s me thinking we were discussing Measles.
I also don’t think you have any idea of the cost of a hospital you certainly wouldn’t be able to build a brand new regional hospital such as Northland base in Whangarei out of the money we spent on MeNZ B
Oh sorry I didn’t correctly read, you had limited your comment to the MMR vaccine only.
Dunno about that…the new $60M West Coast hospital + IFHC in Greymouth approved by Ryall in Sept would have fit inside the MeNZ B budget very easily.
thanks CV and Weka…you are my heroes…dont think anything more is going to come out of this discussion…however i have just thought of a very good Sci fi plot….
Nasty Parmac multnational trolls persuade the govts of the world to vaccinate all their lovely little kiddies and sweet little babies ….and when they have snatched them all out of their parents arms( because they know best) and given them the jab ….then they come after the parents with their great big injections!!!!urrrggghhhh…(.except a few wild Chooks and CVs and Wekas get away to the mountains …they have natural wild immunity of course which makes them naturally have bush intelligence and be wily and skeptical )
….in the meantime everyone who has been vaccinated has been turned into zombies….because they put some nasty stuff in the vaccines that interfered with their DNA….( piggy DNA and cow DNA …and all they go around mooing and snorting and grunting because their evolution has now been horizontally changed…and they are returning to four leggedness and developing tails and their noses and tongues are getting fatter )
….meanwhile back in the mountains a counter jab is being hatched……..( to be continued)
….bet this never sees the light of day as a bedtime story called ‘War of the Viruses’ for kiddies…bet it is regarded as very VERY irresponsible
What I’ve learnt today.
CV, Weka and Chooky can never judge a climate change denier again.
Anti-intellectual, anti-science rubbish.
Sigh.
Citation for where I have said something today that is anti-science or anti-intellectual.
Your first comment of:
“If you think that all people who don’t want to vaccinate their kids are anti-science or ignorant of science, then you really have little understanding of the communities that choose to not vaccinate and probably shouldn’t be expressing an opinion about them.”
Okay. There’s nothing wrong with that in principle. Nothing anti-science or ignorant of science there.
Now let’s look at your list of reasons:
“they don’t believe that vaccinations don’t have adverse affects on overall health”
Anti-science/Ignorant of science.
“they are concerned about adverse reactions”
Anti-science/Ignorant of science.
“they believe that illnesses like measles are normal childhood events”
Anti-science/Ignorant of science.
“that having measles creates a challenge for the immune system that is important for lifelong health, and that if you avoid all illness you compromise immunity/health.”
Anti-science/ignorant of science.
“they believe that being ill is a normal part of life and that it’s not possible to make the world completely safe, nor is it desirable to try.”
Anti-science/ignorant of science.
“they believe that reductionist science is not the only way of understanding the world and tend to have a much broader understanding of health care models than most GPs.”
Anti-science/ignorant of science.
You literally told me off for accusing people of being anti-science and then provided a list which was completely full of ignorance.
Look, if you want to believe what you want, fine. But don’t call yourself pro-science. And don’t judge people who do the same thing with climate change because you’re exactly the same. And don’t call yourself left-wing or liberal because attitude like these disproportionately hurt the poor more.
Good day, sir.
Sorry to say +1
Apart from the “no true Scotsman” argument in the penultimate sentence.
LOL what a narrow concept of the world you hold, DG. You may as well label people who view the world differently as heretics and disbelievers lol
Let me know when you start holding your “anti-science” show trials.
Ok, here we go. You haven’t bothered to say why you think these statements are anti-science/ignorant of science, so I’ll just hazard a guess.
Now let’s look at your list of reasons:
“they don’t believe that vaccinations don’t have adverse affects on overall health”
Anti-science/Ignorant of science.
Leaving aside that me reporting the beliefs of other people doesn’t make me anti-science/ignorant of science, let’s look at the statement as is.
You calling it anti-science/ignorant of science infers that science has studied everything there is know about human health, and vaccinations. That’s simply not possible (science increases its knowledge around human health, and vaccinations all the time). But if you have some evidence that proves that vaccinations are inherently safe beyond all doubt, I would be interested. My own view is that you can’t prove such a thing one way or the other, and that the scientific method would instead look at the value of the vaccine against any known risks. Over time it could also look at the bigger picture and assess what the likelihood of impacts on health are, but I don’t know if this is being done. Do you?
“they are concerned about adverse reactions”
Anti-science/Ignorant of science.
Medsafe report on adverse reactions and assessment of causality
http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/puarticles/vaccine.htm
“they believe that illnesses like measles are normal childhood events”
Anti-science/Ignorant of science.
Am going to leave this one because I don’t see how this is anything to do with science at all. It’s more a philosophy and social ethics question.
“that having measles creates a challenge for the immune system that is important for lifelong health, and that if you avoid all illness you compromise immunity/health.”
Anti-science/ignorant of science.
I would actually be very interested to see if medical science has done any work on this. Do you know?
We do know that science is now hypothesising that exposure to bacteria is part of building strong immunity (google the hygiene hypothesis if you are not familiar with this). I don’t know if there is scientific evidence with regards to viruses, other than immunity established in response to specific viruses on exposure, but it’s not anti-science to ask this. Science should be open to looking at this very question.
“they believe that being ill is a normal part of life and that it’s not possible to make the world completely safe, nor is it desirable to try.”
Anti-science/ignorant of science.
Again, this is not really anything to do with science, it’s a philosophy and ethics question. You might not like the statement, and you might even be alarmed at the raising of the question, but that you point a scornful finger and say anti-science is really just saying that “my beliefs are better than yours simply because I believe them”.
“they believe that reductionist science is not the only way of understanding the world and tend to have a much broader understanding of health care models than most GPs.”
Anti-science/ignorant of science.
AFAIK historically GPs haven’t been trained in multi-cultural models of health care, nor in alternative models. Those that have an understanding educate themselves and they are obvious compared to their colleagues who don’t. This is a pretty well known phenomenon amongst patients who are using conventional medicine alongside alternative healthcare. So the comment about GPs is not anti-science, it’s just based on observation.
Saying that the parents I know who have chosen not to vaccinate their kids all have a broad knowledge of other models is on reflection overstating the case (some do, some don’t).
If your objection is to the idea that there are other ways of understanding the world in addition to reductionist science, then again I can’t see how you could support that statement scientifically without bringing your own beliefs into it. That there are other ways of knowing doesn’t mean that reductionist science isn’t useful. It just means we have more tools in the box.
Look, if you want to believe what you want, fine. But don’t call yourself pro-science.
I don’t call myself pro-science, but I’m not anti-science either. I think science is a tool that should be evaluated constantly for where it is useful, where it is not, and where it is succeeding and where it is failing. I like science and use it a lot, but it’s not the only thing I refer to for understanding.
And consider this. Even if I were anti-science re vaccinations, how would that make me anti-science/anti-intellectual in general. Most people have blind spots. That you would make such a sweeping judgement about me based on actually very little evidence says quite a lot about your ideology.
And don’t judge people who do the same thing with climate change because you’re exactly the same.
You have yet to produce a single statement of mine that denies proven science, so I think this comparison is pretty flawed. It’s not like I’m saying that MMR causes autism and heres’s the science to prove it. That would be a closer equivalent to saying that AGW doesn’t exist.
Your assertions appear to be based on the idea that vaccinations are always safe and good for all people all the time. That is a statement of belief and philopsophy and ethics, so stop trying to make out that science can make such a claim. As I said, the parents I know tend to make judgements based on risk assessment. For instance one friend didn’t vaccinate her kids against measles, mumps, rubella etc. Both the parents were fit and healthy, had a high standard of living and access to good nutrition, health care etc, so she considered the children at low risk of complications from those illnesses. But as she had travelled internationally a lot she was really clear that if she took them overseas to places where there were more serious illness and less control over their environment she would vaccinate.
And don’t call yourself left-wing or liberal because attitude like these disproportionately hurt the poor more.
Lots of things we do disproportionately hurt the poor more. I’m willing to bet the manufacture of your computer hurt the poor more than everyone else, not to mention many other things that you do in your life. It’s a specious argument.
and in the ‘pro intellectual, pro science’ camp ? oh dear tough choice. Science is pure – no ‘personal’ issues, no agendas – just pure and clean – like pissed on snow. Science has one major flaw imo and that is the hubris of many many scientists. But oh know that means I don’t believe in gravity!!! What great military (killing) inventions are scientists coming up with today i wonder, how many experiments are being doctored to give the results wanted and needed to get the money. How would we know – we too dumb to understand – must be forcefed by whitecoated elites – oh know now I suppose i don’t believe in the big yellow thingy in the sky now.
and on a serious note – the duality of the argument is the major flaw – “i am right – you are wrong or you are wrong and i am right” – that approach has caused more shit in this world that just about anything else imo
Sometimes people really are right and others wrong. Sometimes it’s a bit of both. Sometimes it’s the opposite.
A kid is either alive or dead.
It’s a bit difficult to avoid the duality of that.
True, the death of any kid is a tragedy.
I wonder if we did a tally what the count would be for scientists causing the death of children verses saving the lives of children – I suppose we’d have to put ethnic and other bias in there to really get the full story.
well, that’s just super 🙄
@ McFlock…you are a very simplistic thinker and therefore I would say not a good scientist
“A kid is either alive or dead.
It’s a bit difficult to avoid the duality of that”
kid either dead or alive …sure …that is how a farmer talks about sheep …it is either a dead sheep or an alive sheep.
….however you are ignoring the fact that children can die for many reasons…it may be a fully vaccinated child but its parents may smoke….contributing to causing a fatal asthma attack or chronic bronchitis or a cot death
…the parents may be booze artists and drunkenly neglect the kid …causing diseases of neglect and an undermining of the kids immune system which puts it at risks of vaccines anyway
… the parents may feed the kid coca cola instead of milk…let it run wild on the road……
Life is multi -factorial ….and i would say a kids health is ultimately the result of the parents health and the health of the local community and country…ie where there is caring and love the kid will thrive …vaccination or no vaccination
“Life is multi -factorial ….and i would say a kids health is ultimately the result of the parents health and the health of the local community and country…ie where there is caring and love the kid will thrive …vaccination or no vaccination”
Unfortunately that is not always true.
@chooky
The 80-year change mortality rate due to diseases that can be addressed by vaccine begs to differ with you.
“But oh know that means I don’t believe in gravity!!!”
rofl. Thanks marty 😀
“and on a serious note – the duality of the argument is the major flaw – “i am right – you are wrong or you are wrong and i am right” – that approach has caused more shit in this world that just about anything else imo”
+10000.
I kind of like these arguments because it helps me hone my thinking, but in the end it is boring when I consider how far we could go if we stepped out of that duality.
Not sure where you were going with that Chooky, but the sad fact is that there are people who believe things like the govt is trying to control populations for nefarious reasons by vaccinating them, and those people are all over the internet doing a lot of damage. It’s not something I like to joke about.
sorry weka …didnt realise others were actually talking about it on the internet and scaring themselves …..ooops!!!!!!( I think maybe i am getting bored with my other work ..and come here for light relief)
…for some reason i cant take the whole thing seriously….although I really don’t like the idea of people being forced to vaccinate against their wishes ( because if a child dies through the side effects of a vaccination …who is going to take responsibility for compensation?…not that there ever would be compensation enough
….and if it turns out in 15 years from now that people who have been vaccinated are susceptible to a certain sort of cancer or another virus which has a mortality far worse than the original virus which was protective ….who is going to pay compensation for this medical intervention/mishap down the track….?….my bet is that nobody will take responsibility…just like the misuse of antibiotics or certain drugs which have subsequently been shown to be very harmful
i would like to see accountability …particularly if people are pressurised into vaccinations
i guess most in the anti -vaccine camp…rather than being ignorant or fadist or child abusers are the ultimate sceptics
Agreed, in that situation it would be like thalidomide or agent orange.
But then only 20 kids so far have measles, it could be 1 in 20 without more sensible parents using the vaccine.
@ McFlock…you really are paranoid about measles….i feel sorry for you…life must be very precarious
.i have had measles as a child and i think of it is a positive experience….ie my Mother’s care and concern …it was slightly dangerous…a very very high fever and uncomfortable ….. but i had a feeling afterwards that i was at one with life and i was a survivor and i was a part of life…and i know now i am immune from any wild measles mutations for life
.i have heard that in old India measles was considered a blessing….a gift from the Gods that the child had received wisdom…people were congratulated that their child had had measles
…my point is life is multi -factoral …to be embraced not shunned……..derrrh
‘……i have heard that in old India measles was considered a blessing….a gift from the Gods that the child had received wisdom…people were congratulated that their child had had measles”
You have heard wrong..
http://luckylosing.com/2011/11/13/measles-a-gift-from-a-goddess/
Furthmore references to measles can be found from as early as the 7th century. The disease was described by the Persian physician Rhazes in the 10th century as “more dreaded than smallpox.”
Measles is still a common and often fatal disease in developing countries.
The World Health Organization estimates there were 164,000 deaths globally from measles in 2008.
@ chooky
I have heard that having a gun held to your head often has a similar effect on worldview.
That doesn’t make it a “gift from god”.
@ Mcflock..
….a gun pointed at your head by another human is not the same as having a natural virus ( although with the fanatical pro vacc docs around here one could get confused)
humans are made up of viruses…
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2012/02/14/mammals-made-by-viruses/#.Uw5XgOOSxF8
…in many ways this debate is similar to the debate about genetic modification of plants and crops…there are considerable risks ( sure you wouldnt make a better sheep farmer than a doc?)
[Click to Edit | Delete]
I’m not a doctor, nor am I a sheep farmer.
the point was that your changed worldview was a reaction to the danger your life was in, not some amazing revelation the virus whispered to you. An asteroid impact is also “natural”, but “natural” does not mean “beneficial” or even “good”. It is what it is.
But then I don’t expect too much from someone who thinks “by” and “of” are interchangeable.
“humans are made up of viruses…”
No they are not, how anyone could come to that conclusion is unbelievable.
“…in many ways this debate is similar to the debate about genetic modification of plants and crops…there are considerable risks”
Um no actually the only similarity is that there is some debate on both topics.
@Chooky
Bloody good selling point though for the likes of Nigel Latter – or whoever the fuck else is the latest ‘parenting expert’ is on the work-life-balanced regular gal’s Nine to Noon (apologies – I have trouble remembering her real-life name at times … Kathryn….Rinny….I did me time in the Gallery…etc).
Selling guilt might very well be the next big thing:
Oh Gawd!!!!! – I’m such a bad bad bad parent!
(No badder, badest, more baderer, no more or less experienced, no more or less expert, no more or less compassionate/concerned/involved/etc. than the next one – plus moi kuds are a betterun yours) … there are limits of course as child abuse stats will attest.
Apologies folks, but I’m a grandparent that sometimes despairs at the twttering bullshit that seems to go on sometimes. It’s becoming fucking pathetic.
(Now make sure people that you take some of that ‘free’ hand cleanser next time you enter ‘the NEW WORLD’); only swim in the open sea; never buy supermarket fruit and veges …… etc.
Oh GOD!!!! I failed! I FAILED! I vaccinated my kuds! It’s going to fucking kill them before their time! I can’t cope – now my daughter-in-law is blaming me for the slight imperfection in my grandson. God – what if he has to take fukn anti-depressants for the rest of his life …. JESUS! – what if he turns out …. err GGGAY ffs!
Poverty people!
Obesity!
Sugar
Cardio-vascular
Hep C
School tuckshops
Cold/damp housing
…….
…………….
……………………
BASHED kids FFS!
Muddle Class indulgence!
Don’t apologise Tim. I like the rant, and you’re dead right about selling guilt.
Yep …. well I live very close to a day care centre. You should hear some of the parents beating themselves up! Neurosis even….. to the extent some can’t even be left to play and discover – then collected at end of day by harassed parents throwing them in the back of SUVs without adequate restraint whilst yacking on their cellphones, and off the vroom. Meanwhile others on low incomes can’t even afford to take their kids to the doctor (let alone afford daycare whilst they flit between 2 or 3 jobs).
Tim…to be a parent is to be neurotic imo….( seems kids also make some docs neurotic)
….and yes I knew those sorts of parents….i fled back to university to keep my sanity…and biffed the kids into the creche….at least in the mornings
Oh yes evil big pharma. I was right about you. Pity about the dead children as a result of irrational morons ignoring science.
At the very least we should make it extremely difficult for parents to not vaccinate their kids. Australia makes a number of welfare payments conditional on vaccination.
Or maybe we can licence reproduction and refuse to licence stupid people. Win win.
Be careful what you wish for.
“But I would simply ban all unvaccinated children attending school. They can all be home schooled.”
Which vaccines are you talking about?
““Further, there is plenty of bullshit happening on the ‘we must vaccinate everyone’ side”
Incorrect.”
Incorrect. Fucking ideologues on both sides give me the shits.
And yet you cite so many in that list of yours.
What?
Ideologues. Citing “beliefs” is the same as citing ideologues.
I was talking about people being dogmatic in their beliefs. I don’t have a problem with people having beliefs, we all do that. It’s how they do it and what they do with them that’s at issue.
Show me where I have stated a “belief” or a “dogma”? Wait, that’s right, I’m just being so unreasonable as to expect some small amount of scientific research to back up your position on the matter of vaccination.
If you could actually point to any research to back up your statements about the decision to not vaccinate, you would have. Instead, you are choosing to paint those who have scientific evidence backing up their argument as persecuting you.
False frame Weka. You’re conflating peer reviewed evidence based research with urban myths.
The neo-cons hate anything that contradicts their models, and the climate deniers hate anything that confronts their lifestyle. I’m sure you can figure out why I brought them up for yourself.
Zorr, ror you specifically, you seem to believe that the only valid knowledge is that produced by RCTs. That’s a belief system, and fair enough, I understand why some people like it so much. It becomes dogma when it prevents you from engaging in dialogue with people who have other (in this case complementary) beliefs (not referring to vaccination there).
You could have taken my original list, and we could have explored what some of those things meant, to the people who believe them and seen what that meant for both of us. Instead you reacted from your dogma (measles = polio), without even really understanding what I wrote, or why people place value on those beliefs, or even what they are based on (you assume there is no evidence, but what evidence do you have for that, esp what evidence from what I wrote???).
You might very well argue that you don’t care, that science is all knowing and everyone should think like you. But here’s the rub. I hear scienceheads complaining a lot about scientific illiteracy and things like popular misunderstandings about science. And I hear many, many more people complaining about science, people from both the mainstream and alternative communities. I just want to bang your bloody heads together. The really frustrating thing is that both sides are right and both are wrong, and in the meantime lots of damage is being done. More and more people are being turned off science because science does fuck up quite a lot. If you want to get those people back you will have to listen to their concerns and not call them dumb fucks.
I also suspect that your dogma means you think I am scientifically illiterate. I’m not. I understand the value of RCTs. I understand what the scientific method is. I place value on those things (different than yours, but still value). I place value on other ways of knowing too (even evidence based ones that haven’t been studied by western science yet).
“False frame Weka. You’re conflating peer reviewed evidence based research with urban myths.
The neo-cons hate anything that contradicts their models, and the climate deniers hate anything that confronts their lifestyle. I’m sure you can figure out why I brought them up for yourself.”
There is a lot going on in this fast moving thread, so sorry, no I don’t know what you mean. Perhaps you could link to the comment where I talked about an urban myth?
The “beliefs” you cite are urban myths.
Which beliefs? I’ve said many things in this thread.
The ones I already linked to in this thread. Are you being deliberately obtuse? Probably.
No, I’m not being deliberately obtuse. I’m tired and I think the onus is on you to be clear as to what you mean.
Please provide some evidence that the things in that comment of mine are ‘urban myths’. All of them I presume.
I really can’t be arsed anymore but, in summation, Dara O’Briain:
Still interested in knowing what alternatives you think are other ways of knowing that are rational/evidence based?
“Still interested in knowing what alternatives you think are other ways of knowing that are rational/evidence based?”
If you ever want to have an open, engaged conversation about that, come back to me 🙂
I am actually asking as I am interested. Just don’t expect me to accept your word that they are and to go do my own research in to them.
No I wouldn’t be expecting you to take my word for it, and I would provide examples. I would however want you to check things out with me and dialogue rather than writing stuff off. I’m going to try later and respond to Disraeli down thread because I think it’s a very good example of him assuming stuff without checking out, writing it off, AND then making value judgements about me that aren’t true.
I would probably also need your response to criticisms of reductionist thinking and/or reductionist science. It’s hard to present other ways of knowing unless the limits or even the parameters of that are acknowledged.
“Jump through my hoops and I might let you in on my awesome secret” – uh, no thanks, I’m good
If it is a form of rational evidence-based “knowing” then it should be able to stand on it’s own two feet without assistance. I am always open to new ideas – I’m not interested in jumping through someone elses hoops in order to even get any information about them.
Though, considering your language and general hostility to “reductionism” as you see it, I am assuming something holistic and potentially Gaia-based.
The reason I am asking for those things is that I don’t want to waste either of our time. You are putting your own parameter on acceptable conversation, why can’t I?
It’s not about something standing on its own two feet or not. It’s about me not wanting to put effort into a conversation that isn’t going to go anywhere.
No, I wasn’t going to talk about Gaia.
Hostility all round. I don’t have a problem with reductionist thinking, I use it all the time myself. I have a problem with how it’s being applied in this conversation. That’s actually quite interesting I would have thought.
I am not necessarily meaning to be overly hostile and in a different environment I probably wouldn’t be as… confrontational.
Part of the problem is that for providing understanding of the natural world, I have yet to meet a better approach than the scientific method for providing that understanding. If there is something else out there, I would like to know about it so that I can at least attempt to judge it on it’s merits and see if it has any value.
Additional to this though, I view “personal philosophy” separate to the greater overall question of science v religion v anything else v FSM. It’s interesting to me to learn what makes other people tick and to find out whether anything in someone else’s world view may fit within my own in such a way that it enriches me. However, opening up with ones own philosophical viewpoint in this setting would be somewhat akin to throwing red meat to ravenous wolves and not to be recommended.
I don’t really know any way to suggest a continuing discussion elsewhere from this forum… shrug feel free to suggest one if you will
Thanks Zorr,
“I am not necessarily meaning to be overly hostile and in a different environment I probably wouldn’t be as… confrontational.”
Likewise, and I think I was naive in how I approached the conversation yesterday.
“Part of the problem is that for providing understanding of the natural world, I have yet to meet a better approach than the scientific method for providing that understanding. If there is something else out there, I would like to know about it so that I can at least attempt to judge it on it’s merits and see if it has any value.”
I’m not suggesting there is something better. I’m suggesting there are other tools that can be used alongside. I’m also suggesting that there are limitations to the scientific method and that when we aren’t aware of that we lose out.
“Additional to this though, I view “personal philosophy” separate to the greater overall question of science v religion v anything else v FSM. It’s interesting to me to learn what makes other people tick and to find out whether anything in someone else’s world view may fit within my own in such a way that it enriches me.”
Me too.
“However, opening up with ones own philosophical viewpoint in this setting would be somewhat akin to throwing red meat to ravenous wolves and not to be recommended.”
Lol, exactly. Which explains my rather exaggerated caution in taking this further at this time.
“I don’t really know any way to suggest a continuing discussion elsewhere from this forum… shrug feel free to suggest one if you will”
I reckon let’s just keep an eye out for when the opportunity arises here on ts naturally, and we should probably avoid trying to do it in conversations about vaccination, homeopathy or religion 😉
Unfortunately you also have a bunch of parents in the community that have vaccinated their kids only to find the kids get the diseases anyway. The you try to treat these parents as crap too, instead of dealing with their very real concerns.
Were you talking to me? How have I treated those parents as crap?
Sorry Weka no I was not insulting you. This was in response to I think SSrlands much futher up the post but it’s now a convoluted set of posts. Many apologies
No worries 🙂 I agree, it gets a bit hard to follow in this very long threads.
Yes exactly. As soon as I meet anyone who is a vaccine denier, I write them off. I refuse to trust anything they say. It is the canary in the coal mine. Same as:
911 was perpetrated by the CIA
The planet is cooling, not warming
Man didn’t land on the moon
Childhood vaccines are dangerous/against nature
Wall St wanted WWI to ensure that their loans to France and Britain would be repayed
The US placed an energy embargo on Japan, knowing that it would likely lead to war
The Pentago waged war on secular Iraq after 9/11 even though most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi and religious Saudi financed.
Nothing to see here, all is business as normal.
You do know that 98M Americans, and maybe more around the world, were exposed to cancer causing SIV infection through earlier versions of polio vaccines given to children, right?
You do know that a previous version of the MMR vaccine was causing severe and life threatening reactions including encephalitis, in UK babies, right?
Grow a brain, mate.
cancer causing SIV infection: cite, pls. Because nobody’s found an increased cancer incidence, even from such a large sample set.
How many?
Versus, say, the 1400-odd cases of measles in unvaccinated people in the recent south Wales outbreak alone?
And how many of those 1400 odd cases had life threatening consequences like state mandated vaccine encephalitis?
Oddly, this 1999 peer reviewed paper seems to disagree with you. Although, I’ll let you off the hook because I meant Simian Virus 40 (SV40), not SIV.
You haven’t actually answered McFlocks question – “”You do know that a previous version of the MMR vaccine was causing severe and life threatening reactions including encephalitis, in UK babies, right?”
How many?”
Please try to actually engage rather than Gish Gallop.
Can you provide the links please? It’s simple enough to copy the URL in to your comments and it would sidestep any awkwardness with selective quoting.
“”You do know that a previous version of the MMR vaccine was causing severe and life threatening reactions including encephalitis, in UK babies, right?”
How many?”
A couple of dozen? Not sure. It wasn’t picked up for a year or two because no systematic monitoring was being conducted, or if it was it was insufficient.
NB the UK govt introduced the vaccination even though other govts (eg. Canadian) had been cautious about it due to problems already being noted.
As for the link you wanted
“Anticancer Res. 1999 May-Jun;19(3B):2173-80.
Cancer risk associated with simian virus 40 contaminated polio vaccine.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10472327
You never read the article, did you?
I don’t think he read any of the articles he posted links to… or, even if he did, he didn’t comprehend what the authors were actually saying
You do know that vaccine technology and medicine in general has moved on exponentially since that vaccine was in use (1955-61) don’t you ?
The relatively recent history of the disease and efforts to eradicate are fascinating.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/polio.html
And in 1955-1961 doctors were saying that patients could fully trust their new modern treatments because knowledge had moved along exponentially from 1925-1931.
Gosh you really are grasping at straws using that as an argument against immunisation.
All of them. Measles is life threatening.
Even with a developed health system, one person died.
Which paper?
Any subsequent ones, say from around 2005? Or are you just cherry-picking studies that agree with you?
Yes, I can confirm for you that there are studies which agree with me.
yes, that is how science works – this study agrees with me, therefore I will ignore the rest. /sarc
all of them, including one death.
How many cases of encephalitis?
…and yet you refuse to confront evidence that increasing the minimum wage has little or no effect upon employment rates.
Understand that most of those identified caught the disease whilst overseas.
Christmas holiday travel.
No those were just the initial couple of cases, most since that time are community acquired locally.
Boringz. It can be mac vs pc tiem nao plox?
I think it’s circumcision next.
We need more angry scientists and doctors:
http://themetapicture.com/angry-scientist-finds-uneducated-internet-comment-and-delivers-badass-response/
Sorry, I hadn’t noticed Draco had posted the same link above. Great minds think alike, or maybe that other one ….
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9758796/Kiwibanks-SAP-move-criticised
“Business consultant and tech commentator Lance Wiggs said in his opinion the investment could be a risky move.
He described SAP as a “vast, complex and barely usable system for managing complex businesses”, with a history of failure to deliver on promised costs and benefits.”
I agree 100% with Lance Wiggs. I have been involved with implementing this rigid hopeless system in a large business and we lost visibility of our business for a good 18 months to 2 years…its a horrible dog of a system.
Was thinking hard about shifting to Kiwi bank but will wit a while now.
SAP as enterprise software for a medium sized operation is appalling. Some consultants are going to make a mint out of the NZ tax payer.
All I’ve ever heard about SAP is bad. Why does it continue to be so popular? Are they just really good at sales and making promises they can’t meet? Wouldn’t people be able to see through that now?
It’s not limited to SAP, but there’s an expectation that once you’ve been through an implementation of a large ERP you can then become a highly-paid consultant, or “change manager”, or something in sales for the provider. I recently experienced it (at a distance) with MS Dynamics AX.
You got it.
SAP is typically sold through major consulting companies who make a shit tonne of money out of the implementations and ongoing maintenance.
You talk to any of the majors about a project like this, and they will inevitably recommend an ERP system like SAP, Oracle or what have you. $$$ and years of fees for the partners…
btw once working well, the ERP packages can certainly be fast at getting the job done. But the time and money needed to get to that point, plus ongoing, its simply massive.
The industry term is ‘pouring cement’, once in and set you’ll not be moving it without serious pain.
They’ve got the spiel, the brown paper bags, ‘conferences’, and know how to use fear and play the egos in a sales cycle.
baaaaaa
The Spell
Between ze germans, MS and Larry there are few real choices left if you want true end-to-end integrated business software for the basic back office i.e.Procure to pay, Sell to collect, payroll, general ledger)
That’s why I do bespoke development for SMEs – no payroll or GL, but able to be integrated with Xero or MYOB or something.
Also, if you have access to the back-end it’s pretty easy to build a reporting suite on top of an ERP and go around the main provider.
Dear Mr Key
If we give you a knighthood now will you leave and never come back?
regards
Tracey
Hmm, don’t know if the Queen knights Americans…
I think he’s still technically an NZ citizen.
David Parker
If he is pushing this policy he is an idiot.
Compulsory kiwisaver is a far smarter policy.
Forget about increasing retirement age he is handing the election to National.
Make that 5 of us this morning who see Labour raising the age of superannuation entitlement to 67 as an election loser???…
+1 = 6
+1 = 7..
phillip ure..
Bearded Git, with a good comment on the German experience above at (1.4), makes it 8…
KJT above makes it 9 of us this morning who see the Labour policy of raising the age of superannuation entitlement to 67 as an election loser in 2014…
From reading Skinny’s words in the comment above i think i can safely say make that 10…
Given that it is going up internaionally, I think the writing is on the wall. The Australian government yesterday flagged an increase in Australian eligibility to 70.
In the last election it was the only really good labour policy, in my opinion.
The age will increase. There is no alternative. Only question is which Government does it.
Labour would win some kudos from the financial markets and the OECD in announcing an increase to 67, preferably with a phased increase to 70.
“The age will increase, there is no alternative”
How about the moral issue of ‘means testing’ it is a benefit and like all benefits they should be means tested.
I know morality isn’t your strong suit but let’s hear what you have to say on this regardless.
SSLands, right you are, the perfect reasons for not raising the pension age are to be found in your appearance this morning,
Those involved in the financial markets do not need a pension full stop which is why many of us commenting this morning are advocating for a means tested pension and the OECD have no interest either as voters or recipients, their only interest being is to keep the serfs pushing the heavy wheel of capitalism ever faster while being bonded as serfs,
As an after thought, OAB has a comment at 9.42am giving an alternative view to your stupidity about the minimum wage put forward in yesterday’s ‘open mike’ which of course you tucked tail and run from as usual…
Re: the effects of raising the minimum wage on Earth.
In science, when reality diverges from the model, the solution is to improve the model, and there is intense competition to be the one to do so first.
S Rylands, it could be you, but I bet you continue to insist that your model is more accurate than reality instead.
Shrillands ducks in and out on here between intervals of 6 minute packets, probably a bean-counter with the usual blinkered vision.
Any given reason for raising the age is wrong imho, but wow srylands, you want to use “they are jumping off a cliff so I must jump off a cliff” as a valid argument for denying one of the core responsibilities of a civilized society.
Which is ( just in case your feather-headed brain has forgotten) to properly care for the life and well being of its aged members.
I know , I know, DNFTT
Bearded Git, indeed, an ‘under–bridge–dweller’ of the lowest order is probably the kindest comment that can be made about SSLands,
Also a Liar when Beareded Git’s comment at (1.4) is taken into account,
There are alternatives and a suggestion is that there are two opposing views becoming apparent,
(1), Being simply raise the age of entitlement for Super as per the Labour Party Policy,
(2), Being means test the Super just as any other benefit is,
Even those who see a financial imperative to raising the age see the political noose pushing such an idea is for Labour,
i would suggest Labour adopt a COMPRoMISE position with the broad electorate, very simple really,
Promise a Referendum on the Superannuation question giving the two options above and a third if there is enough support for such,
If raising the age gains 50% of a vote in a referendum then it is the will of the majority, at the moment such is simply the will of part of 34%…
Simply leave it as it is. Or reduce to 60.
If we can find the money to give to private sector investments, such as Kiwisaver, for retirement, which will dissipate in the next GFC without taxpayer funded bailouts, anyway, then we can find the funding for State super.
This is one of the issues which really show who is stuck in the Neo-liberal dogma.
Do you really think Shill prick, and co, will stop with super?
What he is really saying is we cannot find the resources to feed and house our elderly. A patent nonsense. Lets just increase the number of people in poverty so shrill prick can have a tax cut?
So. After 30 years of neo-liberal reforms, which were supposed to make us all better off, we can no longer afford our old people.
Great achievement Srylands!
You think these days 65 is old?
Some of us have worked for a living, Srylands.
How about reducing the age to 60, means tested but universal at 70?
Relative of mine in South Australia was earning $80,000 at age 80 but no pension, until the day he retired when he received a govt. pension much more generous than NZ’s. Also lot’s of discounts.
He receive his pension based upon his contributions plus the large compulsory employers one.
And Greywarbler above,(with debatable qualifications), appears to bring the number of those opposed to the raising of the age to be eligible for Super to 11…
Anne,(again with debatable points), would seem to be in agreement as far as an election losing strategy being attached to the raising of the Super entitlement age goes, we now number 12…
Freedom, if i may take the liberty of interpretation makes the number 13…
Now then, if it was a fearfacts msm poll, this would mean almost 70% of people across NZ do not want to raise the age of super. Polls are fun 🙂
Add Weka from the comment above and we have 14, lolz is that 71%…
Sorry. Not asset tested…just income tested
+1=8
+1 = 9
me 10
ohh, just seen some more .. me 15
…. plus …. I’m now mulling over whether they even get an electorate vote or not. I had been thinking they may get electorate, but not party.
Given Mr Cunliffe’s apparent absolute faith in that “Presbytarian Miser” (Nine to Noon), it’ll likely be neither unless he can somehow indicate that Parker’s penny pinching won’t be allowed to impact on improving the lot of NZ’s most vulnerable.
re prest miser..
..i agree that..tho’ i think that parker-image is a good one to foster..that must be hand-in hand with that poverty-busting policy-package..the spending must be done where the spending is needed..
..and i wd like to see parker going all presbyterian over that $5 billion ripped off/stolen by the elites in/with criminal tax-evasion..each and every year..
..i reckon he should announce a three-month amnesty..with dodging elites able to come forward and pay what is owed..with no penalities..
..and then promising after that to go gangbusters on/all over them..
..put the fear of ‘the presbyterian mimister’ into them..
..i reckon…
..phillip ure..
I’m hoping the left has its shit together such that come an election win on Saturday, the SWIFT link is taken down while various preventative measures are put in place (a la post-Muldoon).
Like you Phil, it’s not JUST about stopping the trickle up, but recovering some of the stolen.
+1 Tim
@amirite …
It’s 2 plus hours later, and hardly a blip on the reality radar.
I don’t hold out much hope of it happening.
There is however hope … but I’ll wait and see. The Rangitikei candidate has made a post that’s quite appeaing – IMMEDIATELY followed by Karol’s inquiry.
….. waiting
…… waiting
…… waiting
As I’ve said elsewhere … it’ll mean the difference as to whether Labour get at least ONE of the candidate/party votes – or none – until they prove themselves.
We’re talking about 30 years here – far too long to be just voting for what one perceives as the least worst option under an FPP system, to one in which there are at least genuine alternatives exist (that is of course, if one genuinely believes in democracy).
the nzd is on the rise again. key was crowing the other day about overseeing low interest rates. he is not crowing about tge high exchange rate which continues to rise. if interest rates rise soon, as expected, the dollar will go up. greens and labour need to get into this now, hammering key. as for the happy ceos… interview the exporting ceos and see what they think about the prospect of 96 aus dollar and . 85 usd.
its a safe way to attack their management. saying nothing gives the economic management win to national.
key has presided over a soaring kiwi dollar, crucially against aussie and a huge govt debt of over $55billion. simple enough message.
+1
Needs to be framed correctly but it should be a no brainer.
Glenn Greenwald has an interesting article in which he describes the way that James Clapper, the U.S. Director of National Intelligence has a large wooden relief structure dedicated to the U.S. Constitution.
“James Clapper has converted the wall outside of his office into a flamboyant homage to the very same U.S. Constitution that he vandalizes on a daily basis.”
https://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/02/24-4
The NZ flag issue raised by John Key illustrates hypocrisy. Here we have a man who has sold off a large part of NZers’ energy assets, is hoping to push through the TPP (which will affect our health & environment and which will involve a loss of sovereignty for the people of NZ), wanting us to think that he is patriotic with our best interests at heart.
I also like this quote from Greenwald in the same article:
“anyone at this point who is willing to equate evidence-free government assertions with Truth is drowning in some extreme levels of authoritarianism, by definition;”
particularly in relation to the issue of GCSB and funding from sources outside this country.
David Cunliffe is on RadioNZ Nationals Nine to Noon program now for anyone interested…
he very tidily dismissed nationals’..’the economy is booming again!’ self-congratulatory meme..
..(record dairy prices + christchurch insurance payout..)
..he should use that again..and again…
..very potent/effective..
..phillip ure..
also..very smart portraying parker as the tightfisted-child of a presbyterian minister..
..in the cullen-mould..
..as the one in charge of the finance-team..
..once again..a potent/effective tool to overturn the standard tory ‘budget-blowing’ scare-stories against labour..
..and it also should be used..again..and again..
..and all and all..an effective outing from cunnliffe..
..i’d give him a 7/10..
..he really does best in the longform interview..
..and should leap at chances for them..
..phillip ure..
Yep, It–Is–The–Economy–Stupid is where elections are won and lost, David Cunliffe need add into His narrative the 80+billion dollar Government debt,(set to rise to 100 billion under a third term National Government),
Along with that He should be stressing the annual 300–600 million dollar hole in the forecast business tax take showing that the present Governments removal of IRD staff from across the country has stifled its ability to collect due taxes from business,
And lastly the 1.79 Billion dollars of sugar in the form of a deficit this Government is surviving on, a movable feast where ‘balancing the books’ is a fiction set to happen at a future date that is a simple fantasy being promoted by the Government…
That was a safe on the fence interview, which annoyed Ryan by the sounds of it. It was just noise to me. Cunliffe needs to forget about appealing to the middle bloc. They are mostly in camp National. The me too just won’t work Labour does need to set themselves apart from National who the heck likes anything ‘lite’ I hope the afiliate Unions council give the party the curry up bigtime as it’s probably the strongest voice that has their ears.
It wasn’t entirely boring, he did talk about process a lot. I didn’t need to hear how they were getting out the rank and file… …etc…blah..blah.
Key is left looking like a safe pair of hands. Where’s the attack????
Take ChCh, its economical good sense to let the new ChCh shake out and then build to the need instead of this monolithic, lets make ChCh central so boring like Adelaide (and its really boring there).
There’s a list of really bad policies Key is running, from education, to industry…
take broadband, why are we wasting money having installers visit each home seperately, its
economically stupid. Dig up the whole road and install broadband in every home then the cost
would be much lower.
But no, we have to bank lots of fees and charges at every node in the business. Just like our banking sector, where you pay for all the forms about fees, charges, and the cheap banking which all would be far cheaper if they didn’t do all that gunk.
QFT
We really shouldn’t be having discussions about how much the price of copper carried ADSL will be as it shouldn’t even be available after the fibre is rolled out.
Greens are for ending this unnecessary uneconomic activity. Keys been metaphorically sniff petrol fumes, and insuring that money keeps churning through the financial system from unnecessarily expensive activities. And of course the market knows how to gear up the
fees and charges. This is not capitalism its just exploitation by numbers.
Even our legal system has been screwup. Take Ross ponsi scheme. Some of the investors want the tax back they’ve paid this by implication would mean the taxman has been knowingly taking taxes off profits from other moneys involved in the ponsi scheme.
Why should some investors get taxes back when others keep the benefits of the fraud and the tax man keeps the taxes of that fraud.
But wait its worse. Now it turns out parliament has essentially let Ross’s family keep the proceeds of his criminality.
Look sure, an investor who made money from Ross, and had no idea, should keep some of their profits. Like in the Madoff ponsi, it makes sense to not to allow investors to take the higher than normal profits, and just cap them at a average rate. That would mean the
profits would then be available (and taxs on) to the victims of the ponsi.
But no thats too complicated for National, so National (and parliament) lets the family of criminals live it up on the crime of their father, brother, etc.
Its just horrendous thinking how poorly parliament has allowed the law to get, you’d think after decades of smooth economic growth we’d have breed better law, but no, the idiots came to power in the late 70s and decided to throw all the regulations and protections out.
Skinny
Bullshit. I think that Cunliffe was careful, in line with his comment right at the beginning that he was learning to watch what he said because of the likelihood of small errors being magnified and things being misunderstood.
Not a ‘safe’ interview as a description in my mind, more showing thought and care. But at the same time he said he wanted to talk to NZs more, so that we could get to know him as a person.
I think I heard David Cunliffe say that he would aim to have a list of firms that had adopted the living wage program for wages for their people, and that they would be given priority for government contracts. Now that is something to be happy about. That’s a good commitment, to putting NZ in the front of the queue when opportunities for business are being offered. Much needed and good on Labour for that!!!
Ok Warbler point taken no offence to DC you make some good points.
I was hopeful he was going to give National a serve on yesterday’s news of the ballooning costs of the use of contractors and consultants. It’s issues like this (mates clipping the ticket, Aussie mates of Key) that anger taxpayers.
I will wait to hear Winston Peters on the show, you can guarantee Peters will lift his attacks on Key-National as he won’t want them stretching out to too bigger lead in the polls.
Yeah good Point Skinny about the contractors and so on. It seemed to me that this was an introductory joust setting some of the parameters.
Really I think David said as much when he said that it was early days yet. I think it’s a balance – giving out some form to the policies but not enough so that the NACTs can arm themselves with scissors from all sides cutting off bits till the policy garment is unrecognisable.
I just want to see Labour encouraged, not damned because they didn’t promise everything that any individual has strong issues with.
If people change the way they look at government and the economy right around, I think they will get a clearer understanding of where we are now. Say that the economy has come to be what the people in government want, and they grow or shrink it wherever and whenever the mood takes them at any particular time. They haven’t got any interest in the people, who are a package that go along with the economy, and who have to be manipulated into doing so, and to get them to vote for the party most motivated to get hold of the economy for themselves.
That is why the NACTs are doing so well. Very focussed motivation on money, business and profit. All those things are sacred and like prosperity churches, the belief is that if you have these three things, you are righteous and blessed. The rest of the rabble are just a millstone around the neck of the achievers. That is why you can lie to the people if that seems propitious.
So don’t expect anything good from NACT and try to keep the remnants of old Labour and all of new Labour away from the siren call of simple greed and self-centredness. Otherwise they won’t let the rest eat cake, they will even whinge at the cost of noodles in salty water for the paeons.
I would like to hear Winston on RNZ attacking Key, but will it do any good ?-
Winston will not have a bar of the Greens whatever, in which ever way they are presented.
CV IS disagree completely with you on vacination the only vaccination that has low coverage is hooping cough.
All other vaccinations have very high coverage according to the British Medical Journal .
Please front with evidence otherwise.
This school in Auckland most likely has a high immigrant population many of who haven’t had full immunization.
this is an indicator of the deeply-ingrained perception-problem labour currently have..
..especially amongst those 800,000+ voters who have switched-off/become deeply cynical about any govt ever really helping them..
..(it’s been so long..eh..?..)
http://whoar.co.nz/2014/i-grew-up-in-poverty-so-i-know-for-a-fact-that-the-scars-left-on-children-do-not-easily-heal-comment-and-the-black-propaganda-from-helen-clark-david-farrar-and-all-those-others-wit/
(excerpt..)
“..and of course this campaign of hatred/marginalisation has been helped along by the efforts of david farrar @ the rightwing blog..kiwiblog..
..with an apogee reached by him with the publication of the story of a fake/made-up solo-parent..
..a maori (of course..!) called ‘tania heke’..”
phillip ure..
Stuff.
I’d like to know which “model” was used to make this “estimate”, given what happens on Earth.
yeah..ya gotta luv those (fill in blank-space) jobs-lost! horror-stories that are orifice-plucked..
..whenever it is suggested the worst-off should get a little more..
..of course those same horror-struck folks are silent as a sack of doorknobs at news of eye-wateringly high elite-earnings..
..but you get that..
..eh..?..
..phillip ure..
Nice link OAB, everyone should have a good read of that, especially those who have it ingrained in there nut that raising the minimum wage leads to job losses,
And No, for the ‘wing-nuts’ we ARE NOT advocating the minimum wage be raised to 30 dollars an hour or some other ludicrous number pulled from your rectal cavities,
The economy, especially the low waged one can afford a series of small pay rises throughout the year, raising the minimum wage in that particular studies case lead to NO higher unemployment rate when compared on a State by State basis in the US,(in fact the opposite occurred),
The simple economics would suggest that even at 15.50 an hour in the fast food industry the current level of profit would remain with a small raise in the cost of each burger sold of between 2 and 5 cents, are a mass of people going to decamp from purchasing big mac’s because of such a rise in price, doubt it…
Or more cash in low-waged consumer pockets equals higher sales volumes.
Yeah nice link. Pity it is rubbish. Someone at The Standard posted that study prevuiously. It is famous in the literature for being highly flawed. It has been reevaluated most notably in 1996. This showed that the data actually showed that raising the minimum wage had a material impact on employment:
http://www.nber.org/papers/w5224
Cullen raised the minimum wage nine times in nine years. Unemployment fell.
“This has not been true in the past. The balance of probabilities is that a higher minimum wage does not cost jobs.” Treasury quoted by 3News.
Get over it S Rylands: “All models are wrong. Some are useful.” George Box.
Strange that ae OAB, Cullen kept raising the minimum wage and unemployment kept falling, in a world occupied by SSLands where having at least one hand tucked down the front of the Y fronts would seem to be compulsory that just didn’t occur…
The response finds “no difference in hours growth between the samples”. In other words your slam-dunk isn’t.
i have got things to do, later SSLands i will add a link to every comment i make to you outlining that the raising of the minimum wage DOES NOT lead to more unemployment,
Hopefully this time round, my having posted many of these links on a previous occasion, you will not turn yellow,tuck tail, and, scarper like the coward many of us here view you as…
That old hat has been disproven in a number of Countries. It’s Chicken Little stuff put out here by big business interest groups, like cheerleader Phil O’Reilly of Business NZ. Who I might add, was deplorable sticking up for Aussie corporate Progressive Enterprises. You would think he would of backed the Kiwi suppliers, instead of crying how hard done by PE was. So no credibility there whatsoever.
I imagine he checks his ledger before weighing in on any issue.
phil o’reilly gets wheeled out to support working for families every now & then.
70% of Nobel laureates in economics endorse the call for an increase in minimum wages (3 deferred 1 model)
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-14/seven-noble-laureates-urge-increase-in-u-s-worker-minimum-wage.html
Key doesn’t use a model, he just says things to justify his position.
He’s quoting someone else’s estimate. If there is no estimate, then that’s news too.
Just heard most of Cunliffe on National Radio. What I heard was brilliant. Spot on. Well done David
Cunliffe seems to take the rather poor poll results as of recent as a challenge to do more and better, rather than to accept defeat this early in election year. He gave good answers and sounds like a PM in waiting, certainly is more convincing and better spoken than John Key and his twisted talk.
Here is the audio, a MUST LISTEN TO:
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2586927/david-cunliffe-labour-party-leader
Compare David Cunliffe’s very good interview (well spoken, self confident, objective, balanced, respectful, fair and sensible) to the comparatively below average performance of John Key a week earlier (compliments of Radio NZ National audio service):
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2586259/election-year-interviews
Any sensible, intelligent enough person will after comparing both interviews surely get the message, Key cannot be trusted, Cunliffe has ideas, a vision and potential for leading NZ into the future!
xtasy. DC did come over well but unfortunately RadioNZ listenership is largely an audience of ‘already committed’ voters.
Worse, it has a pathetically small audience compared with talkback Radio Network and the “shallow-DJ-culture-music” stations. Even the sports network has politically biased/aligned jocks who get their subtle right-wing digs in.
Yes, I admit that RNZ has a small, mostly above average educated and more politically interested listener-ship.
But the hope is, and Cunliffe mentions this, that Labour (besides the Greens already doing this to a degree) will use social media, networking, local meetings and events and other means, to reach out and spread their message!
That is the only way to get attention, indirectly also by the MSM. It would be wrong and foolish to rely on the MSM to change and get more honest, fair and balanced, as they will not, so there is no hope for any in opposition to get the coverage needed to spread news about policy and persons they will have as candidates.
Yet to a degree the MSM will need to be answered and used, but it must be done with extreme cautions and perhaps under conditions. With events, social media driven discussion and so, the people will hear and ask and discuss, and it would be stupid for the MSM to just ignore this. So indirectly they will be forced to pay some attention and report on it.
It may even assist Labour by exposing the bias by certain media in interviews, pointing this out, and that will show listeners and viewers, they have a point, they are not given the same respect, time and so forth.
A slight tangent, but what annoys me is how the SlipperyOne has been able to avoid the MSM reminding the conservative and fundamentalist voters of his personal stances on social issues.
Issues that are considered social engineering amongst many.
Correct me if I am wrong…
Key was instrumental in the repeal of S59 of the crimes act and proud of it.
Key makes milage from his support of Gay rights, Gay marriage etc.
Things that are anathema to the FamilyFist/brigade Conservative party (and I suspect to many of the 800,000 who didn’t vote last time around).
… I have the enduring image of John Key and Helen Clark approaching the waiting media scrum in the Beehive to announce that they have worked through the repeal of S59. And that moment was the breaking of the Clark government/making of Key as a negotiator (real or imagined).
Yes, that is only the result of MSM BIAS, none else. Key and Nats are not challenged on any of that, so the public (with short memories) forget things that happened, and they will not even think of it. Out of mind out of sight, so to say.
And I think, for Labour, Greens and others, there is NO alternative to use all other means of communicating information and messages to vote, via social media, via online forums, via public meetings in public squares and places, with events in similar places (with free entertainment, possibly by “friendly” and popular artists like musicians), with going to work places, with talking to people face to face, with question and answers at such events!
Winston “First” did have his political comeback because of his hard work of filling halls all over the country for months, yes years. Every MP from Labour and Greens, every candidate, must do the same over the coming months, as the MSM cannot be relied on, to be fair and balanced, as too many working for them are upper middle class, and opportunistic, now often young and career minded, having too little experience of a society before the 1990s, when neoliberalism become firmly printed onto the society and into the minds of people here (dividing, and leading to lower income for years increased crime, social degredation and worse).
The “media personalities” of baby boomer age are mostly also well to do folks, now, who work mostly for the private, corporate media, and they have settled for nice salaries, and will not want a change, where they have to pay more taxes and may have to compete with more and better public service media.
@ xtasy,,
“..The “media personalities” of baby boomer age are mostly also well to do folks, now, who work mostly for the private, corporate media, and they have settled for nice salaries, and will not want a change, where they have to pay more taxes and may have to compete with more and better public service media…”
..self-interest/corporate-pressures drives/tinges so much of what they do..
..phillip ure..
Winston’s audiences are made up of people who no longer go to work.
His meetings are at about 10.30am with tea and scones to follow, which is why many go for the feed.
@ logie..i totally agree with yr reading of that sec 59 moment..
..clark in that moment moved key from outsider/hollow-man..
..to someone she could work with..
..and thus gave him a leadership stamp of approval..
..that was perhaps one of her biggest tactical-mistakes..
..and one of keys’ cleverest moves..
..phillip ure..
“Key was instrumental in the repeal of S59 of the crimes act and proud of it.
Key makes milage from his support of Gay rights, Gay marriage etc.”
Yep, Key wins elections by appealing to voters well outside of the National party’s core die-hard base of bigoted entitled horse-fuckers, and the horse-fuckers roll with it because he keeps winning elections.
Have you not been paying attention for the last 8 years?
That interview with John Key last week was aggravating, which is not a shock in itself. What was so galling was the obvious weak handed wrestling expressed by Ryan. (again not a shock but it was extraordinarily tame).
Key freely stated that inheriting a 10 billion dollar debt when they entered Govt in 2008 was a very dangerous thing and his tone inferred something akin to Labour planting an IED in the books and it was only his team’s meticulous skills as bomb disposal experts which pulled us away from certain destruction. (i may have read into his words a little 😉 )
but what cannot be disputed is that at no time during the discussion did Ryan raise the issue of the 80 billion dollar debt we currently are shackled to. Like lead weights on a mooring line, all we can do is watch the approach of an incoming tide.
Yes, Ryan could have and should have put on the pressure more on finance and other issues, and not let Key get away with his up-talking of the economy. But she firmly challenged Key on the electoral reform issue, where it was the Nats that stopped reforms, to change the threshold for smaller parties and stop the piggy backing by small parties getting in by just winning one electorate and not reaching the threshold.
Key did try to mislead there, like in other areas, and she nailed him on that. It was National that wanted to keep electoral law as it is, so they could rely on a small party like ACT or United Future getting in, perhaps getting more than one MP into parliament, while not reaching 5 per cent of the vote.
An informed person would though have heard how Key was his usual, twisting figures, making up arguments and claims, and dodging some questions by not giving clear answers.
The rich get away with it again….. disgusted
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/business/9759954/Ross-deal-disgusts-investors
I remember Goff blathering on about changing the law so that people the cops said were criminals, even if they weren’t convicted of anything, could have their assets seized on the basis of some obscure unprovable assertion that they were the proceeds of crime. Funny how this doesn’t seem to apply to corporate fraud, although if the Maori family down the street buy a couple of new Harleys they run the risk of losing them.
I heard David Cunliffe on 9-noon thisx am.
too much beltway blah.
the question is where are the jobs.
forget the mangement speak.
that does not and will not win votes.
Part of the problem was the questions: too much focus on polls, post-election alliances, and poltiical strategies. That provides a beltway framing to the whole interview.
well David Cunliffe has to remember that ryan is only one vote and to hell with the questions.
he is a poltician and not some uni lecturer speaking to a classroom of crypto eggheads.
its our party and not theirs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
if he doesn’t understand this then they are going to keep blindsiding him with irellevant nonsense.
I disagree, I’d say the majority of people who listen to National radio are crypto eggheads.
They probably found what Cunliffe had to say quite exciting.
Oh look, a new social classification for you to add to your thesis that society is divided into tradies, office workers, and beneficiaries.
🙄
The point about DC today was that he can and did perform extremely well. Especially given the challenges at the moment. He didn’t falter.
Ryan kept asking repetitive questions about who he would promote from other parties etc. He handled it very well. Beltway blah as you call it Captain Hook is probably appropriate for this audience.
Radionz Radionews
How can farmers make a buck when this sort of thing is going on? If NACTs are said to be the business-friendly party, is this true of all businesses including the 90% mini businesses that NZ runs on, including small farmers? Why doesn’t the government dismantle the ever invasive traffic police that increasingly are at hand to sanction everything we do, and set up fast-response units to aid the country people, supposedly the backbone of NZ earnings and enterprise??
Police in Southland are investigating the death of 500 sheep at a farm near Gore. They appear to have suffocated.
Police say the sheep were discovered dead in a gully on a farm at Mt Wendon, about 45 kilometres north of Gore.
They say it isn’t clear whether the deaths are suspicious, as the sheep may have smothered themselves after being spooked by an unwelcome presence on the property, such as poachers.
The stock loss is estimated to be worth thousands of dollars.
Police say poaching is becoming an increasingly common problem in the area and they’re keen to hear from any farmers who have seen suspicious activity, especially around Mt Wendon, in early February.
bless pandora radio..eh..?
..how it alerts you to things you didn’t yet/even know you liked..
..i had heard of (the late) jeff healy..
..but never heard him..
..then i heard this..
..and if you don’t mind the odd bit of blues-tinged fender stratocaster show-off geetar-playing..
..i urge you to watch this..
..he starts to show off at about 1 min 36..
..and seriously cranks it up at about 2 mins 40..
..and yep..he goes for the big finish..
..there are a couple of verses of lyrics..
..but they just seem to get in the way..
..you just want more of what healy has to offer on/from his fender..
..a seriously good player..
..phillip ure..
last week ryan asked key when the next asset sale would be. he said the decision hadnt been made.
bathurst have pulled out of denniston indefinitelt, laying off 29 people.
greens have a press release
Kids love dinosaurs.
So what better way to inspire their interest in the oil and gas industry than telling them that dinosaurs that once roamed the earth live on in the fuel in mummy and daddy’s car.
Except, that’s wrong. Almost all oil and gas is comprised from plant matter which decomposed millions of years before dinosaurs existed.
This is one of several scientific inaccuracies in an oil and gas industry roadshow touring Taranaki and Whanganui schools to ‘educate’ kids about the drilling off their coast.
The dinosaur theme is the lure they use to attract children to their propaganda on how great, safe and important it is to explore and drill for oil.
Sadly the Minister of Education is happy to allow this corporate incursion into schools with no requirement for balance.
Climate change does not even feature in the “educational experience” except as something that affected dinosaurs many years ago, while the science that is mentioned is often compltely wrong.
Here is an example: “Those dinosaurs that roamed Earth millions of years ago are now oil and gas. We get it out to put into your family car”.
These are the kinds of factual errors which annoyed Dr Mike Dickison, Whanganui Regional Museum Curator of Natural History, who highlighted the industry’s “cynical ploy” to attract kids in his local paper this week.
The show “was not an educational show at all,” Dr Dickison said, “but is entirely funded by the gas and oil industry to convince kids that drilling is safe and cool”.
The Green Party is astonished at the bias in this presentation and that it raises no concern at all from the Minister.
press release from green party
Dinosaurs in the petrol tank remind me of the creationist museums in the US and A, where Adam and Eve have pet dinosaurs. Does Colon Craig know that petrol comes from dinosaurs, and doesn’t it worry him that the oil companies make no effort to separate decomposed dinosaurs from decomposed humans? Would a good christian like Colon run his car on the rotted remains of Jesus? I’d love to see an interviewer ask him about that one. Maybe we’ve found a new ally against fracking and drilling 🙂
“We all know the Government is going to change. It’s either going to change this time or next time. I think it’s more likely to change this time, and if it does, the question in front of New Zealanders is what is the composition of that new government going to be?”
A bob each way for Cunliffe but yes I agree that Labour will win the 2017 election
“……… Labour will win the 2017 election”
So is this election or the next you want cancelled?
one for the banal poltroons. teenage arsonists now get fire safety courses instead of psychological evaluation.
howzatt.
score two for the banal poltroons in the justice system (industry). there is no amount of courses, counselling or resources will turn an aspergers person into a non aspergers person.
I really hope I haven’t offended anyone and changed their lives forever (sic).
http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/02/im-going-show-something-rarely-seen-wild/
I’m sure everyone here will join in congratulating Whaleoil on his win as a win for Whaleoil is a win for all political blogs
Did Key buy that for him??
Is there a new camera/surveillance device in that box??
Yes we are sure Blubber boy is thrilled with His little plastic bauble, a childs dummy would have been far more appropriate…
Gracious as always 🙂
Just like Cameron.
I hadn’t noticed that it was a political blog. After you get past the click bait, the paid ranting, the sorry for himself posting, the blustering and rhetorical grandstanding on historical issues that Cam is too young to know about, there really isn’t a lot of politics left or right.
I’d have described it as a classic “blog” in the original sense in which a poor depressed soul pours out their sorry hard luck story. In the days of yore he’d have spent a lot of time in a pub – and let me tell you that I heard a lot of no-hopers like him when I served the public bar. Everything is someone or something elses fault and never because he is a lazy irresponsible fuckwit.
It is as predictable as a male Mills and Boon and just as tedious…
Now you were saying…
It’s not really a blog, there is little original content, just a stream of jokes, random youtube clips, and abusing people. Occasionally there’s a quote from the news with a sentence or two of drivel from the keyboard of the Great Blubber.
Is the award for getting random google hits from round the world? It can’t be for political analysis because at no point in his rambling incoherent posts is he even close to anything resembling a rational thought. Everyone who sees that blog is made dumber for having read it. I award Cam Slater 0 points, and may God have mercy on his soul.
ref: http://youtu.be/5hfYJsQAhl0
Slippery the Prime Minister is playing ‘gambler’ with Nationals chances at the 2014 election, i suppose He has to at least pretend the main stream media polls are anywhere correct and not simply the propaganda from Nationals supporters,
Now Dissing Winston Peters to the max Slippery is trying to accomplish a 2008 result, a Parliament without NZFirst obviously enamored of the dream of ‘Governing alone’…
Slippery the Prime Minister is playing ‘gambler’ with Nationals chances at the 2014 election
Playing gambler and winning on his hunches seems to give the PM an extreme buzz and are the things that make his life worth living. Oh – and denigrating anyone with a social or environmental conscience.
Dirty Dairying—in America this time
http://gawker.com/new-york-farmer-reportedly-catches-two-men-on-video-fuc-1529849453
Like the dying days of the asbestos industry, the writing is on the wall for coal in this country it is only a matter of time. But the sooner the better, if we are to leave a survivable climate for future generations.
http://business.scoop.co.nz/2014/02/25/bathurst-hunkers-down-as-coking-coal-price-keeps-sinking/
You see, I’m just a little confused, here. In the latest Listener, the Nats’ somewhat pompous Trade Minister, Tim Groser, tells Guyon Espiner that “I was essentially…..the most employed child actor in New Zealand as a small child”, reflecting on his work on radio and TV dramas such as CLOSE TO HOME.
Putting aside the fact that I’d never heard of Groser before his relatively recent foray into politics, how can someone who was born in 1950 have been “a child actor” in a series (CLOSE TO HOME) that first aired in 1975 ? Did he have some sort of delayed childhood ? Still in nappies at the age of 27 ???
Not mentioned in the cast list (not that that’s in any way definitive):
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0224849/fullcredits?ref_=tt_ov_st_sm
Yeah, I mean the guy would’ve been 10 or 11 when TV was first introduced into New Zealand (1960-1961), so he was already bordering on teenage-hood then. He MAY have been on radio as a kid, but I’m buggered if I can think of any NZ TV drama from the early 60s. Pukemanu was early 70s, by which point he was an adult.
Moved to NZ at age 8, presumably with a Scottish accent, that could be an asset or a hindrance, I suppose.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Groser
I see Mike Bush “Detective Inspector Bruce Hutton had integrity beyond reproach” is now the Police Commissioner.
How reassuring to have a guy who does not believe the royal commission when they say there was police corruption. Of course the police never do anything wrong, so he won’t have to invest any time in creating a culture where they ever have to admit mistakes.
He leads by example. When challenged on his comments he apologised if they gave offence but did not resile from his claim about Hutton ‘s integrity.
This is not minor IMHO. This sends the wrong message to the police rank and file, and places in-house loyalty and achieving business results ahead of openness and service to the community.
The NZ Police cannot advance as a more open organisation when their leader rejects well-researched criticism.
fitting choice for this government
I’m having trouble reconciling this sort of thing from the Herald:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11209767
With this from Stuff who think that I might want to know that this affair
‘. . .will also embarrass the Government because of the ties between the council and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and NZ Trade and Enterprise.
As chair of the Middle East council, Mr Vukcevic rubs shoulders with powerful figures from MFAT – including Foreign Affairs Minister Murray McCully.
The ministry said tonight that Mr McCully had no knowledge of the CV fraud, and nor did the ministry. “It is a matter for the council. It is a private sector organisation. MFAT has a good working relationship with the council and its members.”
The council’s current executive includes former Young Nats president Daniel Fielding, and the vice-chairman is Auckland lawyer Stewart Germann. Former National Party president Michelle Boag advises the executive.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/9762437/High-level-businessmans-CV-false