Open Mike 29/10/2016
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6:00 am, October 29th, 2016 - 66 comments
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/28/universal-basic-income-ontario-poverty-pilot-project-canada
Its spreading….has its time come?
Interesting Pat. Here the catch would be that English and Trump want to lower taxes when there would be a need to raise taxes to fund such a scheme.
Am of the opinion a UBI could only function as part of a wholesale resetting of how our economy works….trying to bolt one on to existing structures is a guarantee of its failure.
i agree with your opinion there pat
Which is why it’s time hasn’t arrived.
Once the economy starts to fail due to automation/robotics then a UBI will probably be looked at.
that sounds like a National strategy BM…wait till the shit hits the fan before you do anything about it.
it’s not a bad strategy as long as you’ve got a plan in place, that way you can adapt more quickly and effectively, speculating on what may may not happen is fraught with danger and ends up just being, a massive money pit.
You don’t want to waste your resources on a event that may never occur or may occur but not for a very long time.
The current system is ticking along nicely, I see no reason to change it.
“Ticking along nicely”…. we can tell you’re on Planet Key. “Ticking along nicely “…. yeah, just like a time bomb.
“it’s not a bad strategy as long as you’ve got a plan in place,”…except they haven’t and poor decisions are made under pressure.
“You don’t want to waste your resources on a event that may never occur or may occur but not for a very long time.”…..you would have to be wilfully blind or stupid…or both, to not see what is already here.
“the current system is ticking along nicely, I see no reason to change it.”….which is it?…wilfully blind, or stupid?
You need to broaden your horizons pat and start mingling with people who aren’t complete sad sacks.
it’s not all doom and gloom for every one.
do you mean sad sacks like the WEF?
“Without urgent and targeted action today to manage the near-term transition and build a workforce with futureproof skills, governments will have to cope with ever-growing unemployment and inequality, and businesses with a shrinking consumer base,” said Klaus Schwab, Founder and Executive Chairman of the World Economic Forum.”
Im picking “both”
-it’s not all doom and gloom for every one. quote from BM..classics 101
No just for people starting out a family, oir leaving school, retired, or unwell, mentally ill, homeless, poor, unemployed, unemployable, and..
The rich are having a whale of a good old time though .. so sweet as, can’t wait for that trickle down?
“It’s not all doom and gloom for eveyone”
The economy and society should work for everyone.
There are states of desperation and unhappiness that fall short of “doom and gloom” so you are setting the bar too low
The economy and society should work for everyone.
Nothing can ever be 100%.
What’s that saying
If you try to please everyone you’ll end up pleasing nobody.
“Nothing can ever be 100%”.
Right. So therefore we are under no obligation to try and improve things. Let’s just tick along, nothing’s perfect and I’m alright Jack.
Robots still need a heavy list of backup services, jobs switch to automation programming and maintenance.
Not sure of the future you see as being as devoind of employment as you imagine. I agree process work will diminish in more developed countries, but there is always something to do, for those whop get off their arses and look.
A UBI would be good but it would not stop me doing something worthwhile the only benefits I really see is people will have more time to be kind, help and do the things we never had time for before.
Society I think will be better without so much the need to earn a living. Social outcomes of good, would skyrocket I hope.
“Robots (computers) still need a heavy list of backup services, jobs switch to automation programming and maintenance.”
indeed they do….and the proportion of the population capable of that work is not high.
“Not sure of the future you see as being as devoind of employment as you imagine. I agree process work will diminish in more developed countries, but there is always something to do, for those whop get off their arses and look”
yes…but at what recompense, if any?
“A UBI would be good but it would not stop me doing something worthwhile the only benefits I really see is people will have more time to be kind, help and do the things we never had time for before.”
a UBI is not designed to stop you from doing something worthwhile, indeed it is supposed to facilitate that,and ultimately it is designed to provide the (means of) necessities of life where the (future) market cannot.
Money (in all its forms including UBI) is simply a means of rationing resources….a UBI in itself will not solve problems of resource access (or poverty if you like)
In all you say Pat, I was too trying to point out to BM, though your use of comprehension technics certainly exceeds my ability.
Higher than you think. Maintenance of machines in place is plug-n-play which anyone can do. Once it’s beyond that point in its life-cycle it should be recycled and the resources in it reused – which should also be automated.
Ah, but with a UBI paid by the government would people need any?
No, to do that would require democratic control of the nations resources so that groups of people with similar interests can work together to get their projects going. There’s isn’t enough resources for each individual to do their own thing but their are enough resources for groups to work together.
“Higher than you think. Maintenance of machines in place is plug-n-play which anyone can do. Once it’s beyond that point in its life-cycle it should be recycled and the resources in it reused – which should also be automated”
beg to differ….experience has taught that “passionate finger” syndrome is alive and well….the owners of that capital (be they private or community) will not be willing to carry those costs. I believe the future is at very real risk of emphasising a societal split between less and more,the direct opposite i suspect of your hoped for outcome.
“No, to do that would require democratic control of the nations resources so that groups of people with similar interests can work together to get their projects going. There’s isn’t enough resources for each individual to do their own thing but their are enough resources for groups to work together.”
Inclined to agree and is why some form of managed economy will be required….not the laissez faire debacle we currently enjoy(?).
Looking forward there will no doubt be a reduction in the amount of available work for the average meat unit.
I think it would be more along the lines of
The devil makes work for idle hands
Most people need to have a purpose, be striving for something, sitting around just existing would tire very quickly for most.
Very pessimistic outlook on the human species there BM, I see why you vote right, there nasty policies must suit your perceptions of what they deserve.
That “doom and gloom” does make BM sound like a “complete sad sack”. Or is that assertion of his just a way to disparage others?
“The economy and society should work for everyone.
Nothing can ever be 100%.
What’s that saying
If you try to please everyone you’ll end up pleasing nobody.”
– Then lets tax the fuck out of the top 10-20%, share out the rest, the top 10-20% might moan that it’s not fair but “If you try to please everyone you’ll end up pleasing nobody.” right BM?
Ha ha ! The Calvinist Bowel Motion. No calypso music in that. Off for re-education Bowel……
I agree pat.
There’s no need for a pilot. The research’s been done.
” Dauphin, a small farming town of 10,000 people in Manitoba that was once home to one of North America’s largest and most ambitious experiments in basic income.”
“In 1974, about 1,000 residents began receiving monthly payments with no strings attached.”
In 2011 “Evelyn Forget, a professor at the University of Manitoba, dug up the data in hopes of getting a sense of the project’s outcomes. What she found was promising. Hospitalisations, accidents, injuries and mental health issues had all declined when the stipend were flowing into the community. “That’s just a huge finding for a country like Canada that spends so much on hospitals every year,” said Forget.”
Please do read the report
https://public.econ.duke.edu/~erw/197/forget-cea%20%282%29.pdf
lol…pot kettle…I read the article, you failed to mention….
“The payments flowed for four years, turning Dauphin into a potent test site for the policy. But the project’s budget of $17m – the equivalent of about $85m today – ran short halfway through the project, hindering data collection. A growing federal push for austerity along with a change in Manitoba’s government in 1977 sounded the final death knell for the project.”…
and…
“Dauphin wasn’t considered an ideal representative of the labour market; many people were working seasonally, wages were low and nobody belonged to a union. Four decades on, the town seems prescient, said Forget. “Now if you look at the Canadian economy, the whole economy is starting to look like a small town labour market.”
You’ve quoted from the Guardian article. I assumed everybody read it. Why should I mention it?
I’m not sure what your point is.
apologies….I took your “Please do read the report” and “There’s no need for a pilot. The research’s been done.” as suggesting I had posted without reading the linked article.
As to my point, well mainly that the quoted Dauphin study was not a good sample and the study was incomplete. I think it fair to say that no government will proceed with a UBI without further up to date and appropiate trials and the more the better. If any form of UBI is going to provide anything like the hoped for outcomes I suspect there is going to be an awful lot of trial and error and modification along the way.
Good they shouldn’t be there. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/28/russia-denied-membership-of-un-human-rights-council
Why should Russia not be on the Council? The United Kingdom is on it, as are Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the Philippines, Mexico, Kyrgyzstan, and China.
The countries in bold are all supporters of ISIS. Russia, for all its crimes, is not in the same league as those countries.
Don’t forget the US. Sending robotic death machines into the skies of countries that it hasn’t declared war with to carry out semi-targeted extrajudicial killings (with many collateral deaths), would seem grounds to disqualify a country from any human rights council.
By excluding Russia, the UN is reducing its own power not Putin’s.
“Paul Henry reveals why he hates people.”
Crikey! This chap is unbalanced! Worth a read though.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11737753
I thought I was up there with the very worst of the misanthropes, but apparently not.
In this article Henry is relatively restrained. He’s been much worse….
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-27052015/#comment-1021090
Ianmac, did you get through reading it, think I got down to paragrapgh 2 and just couldn’t take the style of writing, the obnoxious view point, it made me feel sick.
Paul H , there’s reasons why assault laws should be rewritten as I truly believe those that stay outside the laws and are that nasty, offensive and cause social harm, need some form of a swift smack upside the head to snap them out of it, make them realize their actually ARE consequences to being a complete opinionated nasty piece of verbal vermin.
It’s fairly typical of the RWNJ mindset:
Looks like the Herald reproduced most of it verbatim maybe so they couldn’t be sued and a lot of it is truly revolting. But printing this negative a story about a favoured commentator, now that is interesting, who or what is on the way out? I remember Bob Clarkson the MP getting similar treatment from the media.
Also a few comments there that made me wonder if he was euphoric/ depressed and or had some other similar issues? The random relocations and reversing recent decisions were interesting.
That’s hilarious. The man is fucked in the head. His synapses are misfiring all over the where.
This could be HUGE in this election only 11 days out:
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/28/politics/fbi-reviewing-new-emails-in-clinton-probe-director-tells-senate-judiciary-committee/index.html
God James three/four days the admins have set up a dedicated US election thread and you still post in the daily one about the US election.
and have blaring notifications on every thread telling you.
Get with the program foooool.
**** ! I thought I had. Pre-coffee. applogies.
No worries mate i’m the same in the mornings.
After finding about Max Keys idea of what real men do.
Joe Jackson may help out …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA65lg1HWt4
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/j/joe+jackson/real+men_20072749.html
ps I like JJ, even when he plays a supporting role to Capt. Kirk
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5m76m_william-shatner-sings-pulp-common-p_music
to Herodotus at 5: Thanks for introducing this usually with-it great-gran to Joe Jackson! great video to show to growing kids, or to remind others who never progress from being one, that they could see the way to become a citizen of worth.
I was in process of commending Bryan Gould’s ‘Real Men’ as a hugely competent article on same theme, when I found your comment. If it has already been on TS somewhere, I apologise….been bit busy this week to scan at leisure.
https://youtu.be/_4ol3hRPYSE?t=31
I have found this discussion with illustrations with satirical cynical cartoons.
Rules for Rulers – about 19 mins and should be seen by all particularly the teenagers who would see it as part of civic and political education. Never saw or heard anything so cogent while I was at school.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs
This brings the name CGP Grey to my attention and it seems there is more from this site with the cartoon background. I guess others have already found this site and have opinions about it. It sees different and fresh. Deceptively simple.
A good piece in the NZ Herald yesterday Elizabeth Stanley: ‘Responsibility’ won’t fix poverty but caring might.
I highlight some of the most salient sentences but I recommend reading the whole article.
…
…
…
Great news in a landmark ruling from from the UK employment court, on a case taken by the GMB Union. This could hopefully have a flow on effect to NZ.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/28/uber-uk-tribunal-self-employed-status
Uber is no longer allowed to pretend its workers are “self-employed contractors”, thus evading minimum wages, holiday pay etc. This phony “contracting” is rife in NZ also.
Uber is valued at $60+ billion, while its workers can end up taking home wages that are well below minimum wage. Of course Uber are appealing…
Best story all week. Actually possibly one of the best ‘Workers Fight Back” of the year.
SO Yesterday HNZ comes out and says it only evicted 5 people from HNZ housing for Meth, today it’s 117, because HNZ only counted those they used a bailiff to get out, the rest they served 90 day notices on.
This is how our government tells us the people the truth and if for no other reason alone why this government should quite frankly be arrested pending investigation into what they really have been up too.
Enoughs e fucvking nuff
Housing New Zealand Minister Bill English was not available to be interviewed.
When I first started using the internet it was mostly comprised of dialing up universities or BBS’s, for forums and news, then it developed for years it was lovely and peaceful I could get good accurate info and browse in peace.
Now every time I start reading something suddenly blaring video’s and noise start piercing my ears. What’s with all the damn adverts.
Use an ad blocker Richard.
Also, this maybe of interest
Google Scholar is an online, freely accessible search engine that lets users look for both physical and digital copies of articles. It searches a wide variety of sources, including academic publishers, universities, and preprint depositories looking for: Peer-reviewed articles. Theses.
https://scholar.google.co.nz/
Car crash of an interview with a drunk Paul Henry in the Herald today.
Farrar of course went into bat for his soulmate and thinks the whole thing is a great joke, from the expletive laden bashing of ordinary Kiwi travellers to the sexual subjectification of the women at the next table.
I’m in the publicity business so my question to the publicist, who was there the whole time presumably to reign in the worst of Henry’s excesses, is ‘were you also drunk?’
Also, why is it that the libertarian crowd like Henry, Farrar, and Hooten not accept that not everyone has the same experiences as them? If I didn’t travel much I’d be unsure, confused, and intimidated by the security process but these clowns use that as a stick to beat people who are not as ‘worldly’ as they.
Make me wonder if the far right has any idea what it is like too be a regular person on the modern world.
It can only be a matter of time before the Paul Henry phenomenon implodes. He really seems unhinged.
I wish he was, he’d be easier to get rid.
Thinks it more the fact the naughty little boys can get away with it.
As for Hooten… he must think he’s bulletproof the amount of people after his hide.
https://archive.fo/1inAb
Interesting discussion of war and propaganda
For example
” These organisations are known as the liberal media. They present themselves as enlightened, progressive tribunes of the moral zeitgeist. They are anti-racist, pro-feminist and pro-LGBT.
And they love war.
While they speak up for feminism, they support rapacious wars that deny the rights of countless women, including the right to life.”
Al Jazeera’s outrageously biased “news” is a scandal.
Al Jazeera News, Saturday 29 October 2016, 8 p.m.
Shameless black propaganda, like rust, never sleeps. As ISIL terrorists in Aleppo step up their attacks in Aleppo, the official television outlet for the ISIL-supporting Qatari dictatorship is pulling no stops.…
PETER DOBBIE: [reading slowly, striving to achieve maximum gravitas] Syrian forces in Aleppo are preparing for the final assault against what THEY call “terrorists.”
Dobbie intoned darkly about “the Syrian regime and its main military guarantor, Russia”, then notably brightened to inform viewers how the brave “opposition fighters” (in fact, ISIS) are “responding with car bombs and rocket attacks.”
Of course, anyone wishing to learn something about the Syrian insurrection, as opposed to accepting this dismal misinformation campaign masquerading as news from the likes of Peter Dobbie and Rory Challands, will consult serious and credible writing, such as the following….
http://www.democracynow.org/2016/5/17/noam_chomsky_on_syria_conflict_cut
Several things I don’t like about your post M, and one is it starts with racism, secondly I’ve always found AJ reasonably middle of the road.. though I have’t watched lately.
Thirdly thanks for the advice on better opinions, but a selection would have been better it feels like your saying this is shit, watch this as that’s what YOU should believe. Kind of… dictatorial you might say.
A lot of kiwis work for Al Jazeera. They are by no means a facile propaganda organ.
A lot of kiwis work for Al Jazeera.
Yes they do, and apart from Kamahl Santamaria, who always seems horribly out of his depth, they do a competent job.
They are by no means a facile propaganda organ.
The facile propaganda is mouthed by the likes of Peter Dobbie and the large number of other former BBC hacks, who have fitted into delivering anti-Russian, anti-Syrian, anti-Iranian and anti-Houthi propaganda with the same sinister smoothness that they once employed on anti-Irish propaganda.
Several things I don’t like about your post M, and one is it starts with racism
I assume you are joking?
secondly I’ve always found AJ reasonably middle of the road..
Al Jazeera is middle of the road in the same sense Fox News is middle of the road.
… though I have’t watched lately.
That explains it then.
Thirdly thanks for the advice on better opinions, but a selection would have been better it feels like your saying this is shit, watch this as that’s what YOU should believe. Kind of… dictatorial you might say.
I don’t mind if anyone wants to watch Al Jazeera—hell, I do after all! I am simply pointing out that, in spite of all its excellent documentaries, its “news” is consistently and outrageously biased in favour of ISIS in Syria.
If you need any proof this government is the government of selfish then have a look at this. The Good country index, when first done New Zealand was 5th. We have slipped to 12th under this mob of selfish, self indulgent Tory’s. I’m going to say, if national get another term we will drop down even more.
I’ll leave you with this, — We are getting more selfish, and that is the enemy of good.
https://goodcountry.org/index/overall-rankings
If you like space, science and exploration – watch – this could be totally doable
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