Open mike 29/12/2012

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1. KhandallaViper 1

   29 December 2012 at 6:55 am

   —-What is characterising and feeding the ongoing divide?

   In 2009 an approach to counter Key was necessary: a Hi-profile Leadership strategy was chosen. This became the mantra under both Goff and Shearer: and anything that might distract from a singular public image of Labour being personified through the Leader became verboten.
   That is now characterised by the obsession with The Standard by the Caucus insiders and their staff. The membership 60/40 vote at Conference only confirmed and strengthened an atmosphere of paranoia.
   There are other behaviours, events and attitudes that are characteristic of what is driving the divide in the party.
   The Tamihere thing, so soon after a divisive Conference when calm was needed, involved wanton disregard of the membership’s wishes.
   The continuation of the four years of marginalising Cunliffe is another example.
   The dissing of “not one of us” MPs, and now members, is a characteristic.
   The offering of Labour seats to prominent figures on condition that they buy into the one-voice one-leader mantra is a characteristic of the behaviour splitting the party.
   The not-left not-right stance by the Leadership on social issues is one characteristic that is driving most activist members nuts.
   The mis-management of the very poor public performances for so long, followed by a strategy of only allowing the Leader to speak in rehearsed set-pieces is driving the rest of the members nuts.

   –How can the destructive spell be broken and the ground prepared for a Labour victory in 2014?

   The attitude behind the behaviour above must change.
2. mickysavage 2

   29 December 2012 at 7:15 am

   If you ever needed a reason to feel contempt for Public Relations types then this morning’s Herald provides plenty of them.

   Apparently the phrase “100% pure NZ” is, although factually woefully incorrect, justifiable on the basis that it is an advertising campaign.

   Tourism New Zealand spokeswoman Deborah Gray said some people were confusing the campaign with an environmental issue.

   “The 100 per cent Pure New Zealand campaign is a marketing campaign not an environmental promise,” she said.

   “It tells the story of how the combination of landscapes, people and activities is 100 per cent unique to us, that is 100 per cent pure New Zealand.”

   So all the hints about how great the environment are accidental. All the campaign was meaning to say is that New Zealand is 100% New Zealand, not that it is in pristine environmental shape.

   Another advertising sort David Bibby thought that we were taking it all too literally.

   “Advertising is all about accentuating the positive and eliminating the negative, so if you start from that premise, advertising is a selling process,” he said.

   Truth is obviously less important than achieving the sale.

   Thankfully Professor Shaun Hendy was also interviewed. He said that on a per-capita basis, New Zealand had one of the highest levels of greenhouse gas emissions in the world. He backed up Mike Joy’s statement that it was wrong to call NZ “100% pure”.

   It is interesting that there should be a debate on whether the truth or lies should form an acceptable part of an advertising campaign.
   • karol 2.1

     29 December 2012 at 7:26 am

     Deborah Gray certainly has the corporate -lie-speak down pat.

     “It tells the story of how the combination of landscapes, people and activities is 100 per cent unique to us, that is 100 per cent pure New Zealand.”

     And, of course, there’s no double meaning intended in the use of “100 per cent pure New Zealand”? – especially when used in connection with pristine-looking landscapes?

     And PhD marketing candidate Bibby is well on the way to perfecting the corporate-speak. He’ll probably be co-opted to being an MP candidate before too long.
   • Brett Dale 2.2

     29 December 2012 at 4:15 pm

     Mikeysavage:

     So will queensland drop their advert of “Beautiful one day, perfect the next”???? if it rains??

     Of course not, its about branding.
     • Mickysavage 2.2.1

       29 December 2012 at 5:09 pm

       But Brett should branding be an excuse to lie?
       • Brett Dale 2.2.1.1

         29 December 2012 at 5:24 pm

         Mickey:

         You want advertising to be honest??? hahaha

         BTW the Gruen transfer is one of the greatest programs ever.
   • xtasy 2.3

     29 December 2012 at 10:45 pm

     MS: It is all “aspirational” anyway under the Key led government. So anything goes, you can promise the blue sky, tell lies and say, we endeavour to reach the truth and aspire to get better, at all times. That is where we are, and the MSM just repeat the crap, as they are themselves no longer able to work on issues of substance (see the new announcement by Fairfax today).

     MONEY does the talking, and the whores are dancing, as the boat is about to come in, full of desperate sailors, wanting to spend their money to get the hormones going.
3. veutoviper 3

   29 December 2012 at 7:51 am

   Also in today’s Herald online, a well-written rebuttal to Fran O’Sullivan’s column last Saturday white-anting Chief Justice Sian Elias and calling for her to recuse herself from hearing the water rights claim – or at least (I suspect) testing the waters on this.

   O’Sullivan’s column is here

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10855648

   A taste:

   “It would be a big call to challenge the Chief Justice, who has (in fact) presided over at least three Supreme Court hearings in which the Maori Council has been a plaintiff without facing any challenge from the Executive. But Cabinet ministers are understood to have asked Crown Law to look at whether grounds do in fact exist for a challenge, or a request to be made to her to stand aside.

   Elias’ prior connections with the Maori Council were so deep that it is surprising that issue has not come up in a considered way before.”

   Bold is mine. Many of the 41 comments on the article were negative to O’Sullivan’s assertions

   Today’s rebuttal is by Richard Cornes – “Dr Richard Cornes is a NZ-trained lawyer and legal academic specialising in Supreme Courts. He is a senior law lecturer at Essex University, in England.”

   Dr Cornes is succinct,to the point and well-worth reading – and hopefully IMO his rebuttal will put an end to any suggestion the the Chief Justice should be challenged or recuse herself. As he points out:

   …
   The Chief Justice was appointed to the bench in 1995 during the fourth National Government’s term of office. It must be at least 17 years since she acted for the Maori Council, and quite possibly more. Simply having been the council’s lawyer does not come close to meeting the threshold set by the common law for recusal.

   There have not been similar calls for the court’s second most senior member, Justice McGrath, to recuse himself whenever the Government is a party before the Court. Justice John McGrath was the Solicitor-General (the Government’s top lawyer) for 11 years before he became a judge in 2000. On the reasoning attributed in Saturday’s report to the unnamed Cabinet ministers – that having acted for a party over a significant period disqualifies a judge from hearing cases involving his or her old client – Justice McGrath would spend an awful lot of time alone in his Supreme Court office while his colleagues decided all those cases involving the Government. That would obviously be nonsensical. And there is nothing odd about having appointed a former Solicitor General to the bench – to do so is common elsewhere in the world.

   New Zealand has a proud history of an independent and impartial judiciary. We can take comfort that all the judges who will sit on the water rights appeal – not just Chief Justice Elias – will give the parties a fair hearing and decide the case according to the law. It would be best if a named Cabinet minister came forward and said so.

   I somhow doubt that we will see “a named Cabinet minister come forward”.
   • Fortran 3.1

     29 December 2012 at 2:22 pm

     Sure the Cabinet Minister was real – oh – it will spoil the story otherwise.
     • Pascal's bookie 3.1.1

       29 December 2012 at 2:26 pm

       What?
   • xtasy 3.2

     29 December 2012 at 10:59 pm

     O’Sullivan is a real damned trouble maker and biased stirrer, I must say. She was trying to politicise the appointment of judges in general. If she would have her way, most judges would not be allowed to hear any cases, as they would all have been acting as legal representatives of various parties before, who may bring new cases, and thus put them at risk of “privilege” or bias.

     That is well over the top. I do not rule out that some judges may be biased on certain issues due to personal views. But the fact is: Judges have a role and responsibility to interpret the law and to rule on existing law as it is.

     That sets clear standards and limits on what a judge can do.

     The personal view or emotions of a judge will have to be put behind this absolute requirement, to interpret and apply the law, as it is written and valid.

     NZ is in political terms perhaps close to being a “banana republic” kind of system, but I cannot really see this to be the case at the courts.

     We have had controversial rulings and determinations over year, and always some will say, that makes no sense, that is biased or whatever. But generally, my impression is, besides of the executive and legislative, the judiciary is about the least corrupted and most independent institution in NZ.

     So Dame Elias is there, will also not make a decision on her own at Supreme Court level anyway, and I think Fran O’Sillivan went over the top yet again with another politically motivated article, to throw doubt into an area she has little knowledge and qualifications in. I am really sick of Fran’s articles, most of which are so damned biased, and she is one of the worst examples of modern day journalism in NZ.
4. Polish Pride 4

   29 December 2012 at 10:34 am

   !o Signs we live in a false Economy
   very American but there are many parallels with NZ not to mention thant the US economy and financial markets have been shown to have a significant flow on effect to the rest of the world…. food for thought anyway..

   http://www.theidealistrevolution.com/10-signs-we-live-in-a-false-economy/
   • Draco T Bastard 4.1

     29 December 2012 at 12:01 pm

     Some of that’s correct but most of it seems to be libertarian BS.
5. Rogue Trooper 5

   29 December 2012 at 11:48 am

   Doc; Hebrews 10:25 (i know, it’s a battle)

   now what about smiles and greetings in the street? I observe a 50 / 50 response rate; yin yang, or
   Bipolar Nation

   Scar Tissue-RHCP say it all? Mr Sarcasm and know-it-all
   (Been Away Too Long-Soundgarden); hope you’re not working for the art race-Ska

   Fairfax tears holes in the worth of tissues

   Whanganui Infrastructure “stinks”; Laws should feel Right at home checking out the crack

   Nick Lowe-Jesus of Cool? i coulda been a Lawyer a Doctor or a Thief, it’s all the same to Thee

   (the dogs are talking…the dogs are talking, Underground, according to the Soul Surgeon)
   (to that Guy, I collected childrens games too; Snakes and Ladders)

   11:2 When pride comes, then comes dis grace, but with Humility comes wisdom

   4 Wealth is worthless in the day of wrath
   ya gotta roll the correct throw to get outta this place

   The Message of Isaiah in 24 is that of a Damaged World
   -devastation of the earth
   -sellers and buyers
   -borrowers and lenders
   -debtors and creditors

   The earth dries up and withers, languishes and withers in the Heat, defiled by it’s people through
   disobedience and a broken covenant (coven) of stewardship; regretfully, people must bear the
   guilt for what they have harmed. Better a culture of guilt than shame.

   Be still and know that I am watching
   Be still and know that I am listening
   Be still and know that I am tasting
   Be still and know that I am touching
   Be still and know that I am feeling
   Be still and know that I am
   Be still and know
   Be still
   Be
   (mmmm…smell that fragrance) Could be Barbiecue

   Right, lets leave the City, and erect a tent city; Sheriff Joe Arpaio would see the possibilities.

   cos we’re livin with a love for the common people, far from the hearts of a family man
   cues and cues at (former) Fantasyland. The things that we will do for our children to see
   yet cannot see to do for our children; bus y lanes for mobility scooters next?

   -One Good Man. (Rossington Collins Band) Three Times As Bad
   This is The Way, Anytime, Anyplace, Anywhere
   (gimme three steps Mr, gimme three steps more, gimme three steps Mr and we’ll be in the door…

   It’s The End of the World as we know it, and I feel fine; gonna be Made, over 30, In The Shade
6. Rogue Trooper 6

   29 December 2012 at 12:42 pm

   Rode over this button sign on the cycle Way here-
   http://www.skip.org.nz/ (links are not happening for me, but we can type)

   now, back to

   Jonah (easily deceived and senseless)

   sooo, Assyria defeats Damascus, ending almost a century of sporadic see-saw conflict
   between Israel and it’s neighbour
   (prior to that time the king of Damascus had even been able to control Internal Affairs in the
   northern kingdom)

   Yet, soon after Triumph, Israel began to gloat over new-found power, feeling jealously complacent about her forward status with God, focusing on her “expectations” of the “day of the LORD” when
   darkness would engulf other sites leaving Israel to bask in His light (not).

   The Lord announced he would “spare them no longer”, and this included sending Jonah to Nineveh
   (like a Glittering Prize, up on the Waterfront, get in, get out of the rain; Don’t you forget about me,
   I’ll be around, dancing with you baby…), i digress, to warn of the imminent danger of divine judgement.
   There is an assumption; the books’ accounts sprang essentially from the whales imagination.
   Nonetheless, the book of Jonah recounts real events in the life and trembling ministry of the
   Hooked himself;

   But Jonah ran away from the Lord and headed for Tarshish (Phoenicia?, well plenty of sails)
   anyway, Then the Lord sent a great wind on the sea. All the sailors were afraid and each cried
   Out, to his own god. And they threw the cargo into the sea to lighten the load. Then the sailors
   said, “Come, let us cast lots to find out who is responsible for this calamity”. You know where they fell (they knew he was running away from the Lord because he had already told them so)

   Meanwhile, the sea was getting higher and saltier. “Pick me up and throw me into the sea”, replied Jonah, “I know this is my fault that this great blitz has come upon you.”

   But,,the Lord provided a great fish to swallow Jonah. Thus he began his slippery prayer, which could have been a prayer of thanksgiving for deliverance as he was sinking into the depths of a
   Great Depression; his gratitude could have been heightened by his knowledge that he deserved
   Death, but that God had shown him extraordinary mercy.

   And then what? After God spares the sacks at Nineveh Jonah was angry that God would have
   Compassion on an enemy of Israel; “O Lord, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than
   continue spewing this filth.

   Jonah goes at sits on an eastern beach, maybe out pass the dump, (probably be “green fields”
   developments soon). There he made himself a panic shelter, sat in it’s shade with a chardonnay
   and waited to see what Len and Gerry would do to the city. Then, the Lord God provided a vine,
   made it grow up over Jonah to give shade from the UV and also ease his discomfort.

   Initially, Jonah was very happen with the vine (probably a castor Oil plant, God being gracious
   towards this stubborn “prophet”), but at the dawn of the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the vine in a Standard way so that it withered. When the Son rose, God provided a
   scorching East wind, and the Son blazed on Jonah’s head so that he grew faint. Thus, he wanted
   to be cast and die again; “Angry” he cried out to God, “I am angry enough to die”.

   -Her Man (Karma Police; this is what you get when you mess around)
7. Rogue Trooper 7

   29 December 2012 at 12:46 pm

   “if you do not at first succeed, try and try again”; correction, do not try, Do!
   
8. Rogue Trooper 8

   29 December 2012 at 12:47 pm

   A-freakinmen (still no p.c)

   
9. Morrissey 9

   29 December 2012 at 2:20 pm

   THE SATURDAY CHALLENGE
   How many War Criminals can YOU name in this photograph?

   http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Powell,_Schwarzkopf,_and_Wolfowitz_at_Cheney_press_conference,_February_1991.jpg
   • Populuxe1 9.1

     29 December 2012 at 3:22 pm

     African American. Jew. Jew. Sensing a theme….
     • Morrissey 9.1.1

       29 December 2012 at 5:06 pm

       I sense a theme: your continued desperation, evident all too clearly in your inability to argue without telling the most rancorous lies.
       • McFliper 9.1.1.1

         29 December 2012 at 5:38 pm

         I found it pretty funny.
         • Morrissey 9.1.1.1.1

           29 December 2012 at 7:40 pm

           Yes, Hive Mind Syndrome does that to people.
           • McFliper 9.1.1.1.1.1

             29 December 2012 at 7:50 pm

             Or it could just be that it was a pretty funny comment, but your conceit doesn’t let you see it.
             • Morrissey …

               29 December 2012 at 7:56 pm

               Funny if you’re in the business of slandering someone, as you are ineptly trying to do.

               Otherwise, it’s about as funny as a Bernard Manning routine attacking “the Pakis”, an Andrew Dice Clay rant against Asians, or a Seinfeld quip about “ugly homeless people”.
               • McFliper …

                 29 December 2012 at 8:07 pm

                 Nope. It was funny against you and only you simply because it juxtaposed your description of the photo with previous debates you have had with P.

                 Oh, and those who falsely accuse others of having been found guilty in a law court should be wary of using the “slander” accusation. Just saying.
                 • Morrissey …

                   29 December 2012 at 8:19 pm

                   Nope. It was funny against you and only you simply because it juxtaposed your description of the photo with previous debates you have had with P.

                   Previous “debates”? Hurling absurd, groundless but incendiary accusations is not debating in any accepted sense of the word.

                   ….those who falsely accuse others of having been found guilty in a law court should be wary of using the “slander” accusation. Just saying.

                   What on earth are you darkly insinuating? It looks like your job is to issue ominous vague warnings while the other fellow hurls around the inflammatory language.

                   Either way, you look like a pair of incompetent clowns.

                   Unfunny clowns, to boot.
                   • McFliper …

                     29 December 2012 at 8:32 pm

                     Previous “debates”? Hurling absurd, groundless but incendiary accusations is not debating in any accepted sense of the word.

                     Then why do you do it?
                     For example:

                     What on earth are you darkly insinuating?

                     So your memory expires some time before the five day duration. I was simply “insinuating” that your repeated accusations of others being defamatory are somewhat hypocritical. And every time you make one, it gives others an opportunity to describe you as a delusional and obsessive hypocrite. Hence maybe you should try another tactic, such as (and I’m just throwing this out there as an option) providing evidence for your claims.
               • Te Reo Putake …

                 29 December 2012 at 9:49 pm

                 “… or a Seinfeld quip about “ugly homeless people”.”

                 Citation. please, Moz. I’d hate to think you’re making shit up again.
                 • Morrissey …

                   30 December 2012 at 6:15 am

                   “… or a Seinfeld quip about “ugly homeless people”.”

                   Citation. please, Moz. I’d hate to think you’re making shit up again.

                   ELAINE: You know what? That’s discriminatory. That is unfair. Why should these women have all the advantages? It’s not enough they get all the attention from men, they have to get all the waitress jobs, too?

                   JERRY: Hey that’s life. Good-looking men have the same advantages. You don’t see any handsome homeless.

                   (scene ends)

                   [setting: doctor’s clinic]

                   GEORGE: You see, It’s right here. It’s all white…

                   DOCTOR: Oh yeah. Yeah. I’ve never seen this before.

                   GEORGE: You’ve never seen this before?

                   http://www.seinology.com/scripts/script-63.shtml
                   • Te Reo Putake …

                     30 December 2012 at 7:09 am

                     Thanks for that, Morrissey. Good to see you pointing out your own mistakes, that’s a sign of maturity.
                   • Morrissey …

                     30 December 2012 at 7:23 am

                     Thanks for that, Morrissey. Good to see you pointing out your own mistakes, that’s a sign of maturity.

                     What mistake did I make? Did Seinfeld sneer at homeless people or not?

                     Or perhaps you think it’s funny to laugh at the down and out.
                   • Te Reo Putake …

                     30 December 2012 at 7:45 am

                     Your mistake was using quotation marks. And misunderstanding the joke.

                     Full list of Seinfeld writers here: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098904/fullcredits

                     Amazingly, some of the names don’t appear to be Jewish. But that just shows the cunning of the IDF/JDL/Zionist conspiracy, doesn’t it?
                   • Morrissey …

                     30 December 2012 at 8:05 am

                     And you’re still, moronically, trying to smear me as a conspiracist anti-Semite.

                     Character assassination might seem easy, I guess, but you’re not really clever enough to keep telling lies like this.
                   • Te Reo Putake …

                     30 December 2012 at 8:11 am

                     I don’t write the comments that have “Morrissey” at the top. They’re all your own work.
                   • Morrissey …

                     30 December 2012 at 8:14 am

                     No, that didn’t work, either, my friend.

                     Larry David you are not.
     • Pascal's bookie 9.1.2

       29 December 2012 at 5:38 pm

       Pretty dodgy that that’s what you see when you look at that picture Pop. Apart from Wolfowitz, who else is Jewish there BTW?
   • Brett Dale 9.2

     29 December 2012 at 5:25 pm

     None, was it a trick question?
     • Pascal's bookie 9.2.1

       29 December 2012 at 5:40 pm

       Cheney is most definitely a war criminal. Check out his role in the development of the torture program for starters, and the attempts to keep it out of the courts including the pressure he was putting on Justice officials.
     • Morrissey 9.2.2

       29 December 2012 at 7:42 pm

       Idiot.
   • BM 9.3

     29 December 2012 at 5:30 pm

     0
     • Morrissey 9.3.1

       29 December 2012 at 7:41 pm

       That your IQ, is it, halfwit?
   • xtasy 9.4

     29 December 2012 at 11:02 pm

     I heard Bush senior was in hospital too, due to serious ill health. Now is this the curse coming to follow all those war mongers that went mad in Iraq??
10. Rogue Trooper 10

    29 December 2012 at 7:53 pm

    Taxi, “Taxi Cab” (sounded good if you can hail it)
    
11. Rogue Trooper 11

    29 December 2012 at 8:53 pm

    Do you see what I see…Do you see what I see…
    all over bar the shouting now. Peace in our times?
    Obama’s “Politics of Hope”?
    Wow! Firefighting heart attacks as ambulance
    Crews struggle to gurney all the demand
    (inside goss’; that field their RHnesses graced is “not very friendly”)
    Thats strange, plenty of pubs, yet it’s all on the q.t about “that” Guy
    everyone knows someone, Everybody knows the dice are loaded
    everybody knows the good guys lost
    Emmerson takes an excellent toss of the waldork salad.

    Boehner, what a no-brainer
    “sometimes Satan come as a man of peace”
    (he flays and blames the game) two-faced plier
    Syria; S.O.C it to the Ass. Ad-“more bloody chaos to come”
    Thatcher and Savile from the same predatory row.

    H.B.Today: power rises prices on av $107 p.a up to $2fitty (Nat; 117, 400 respectfully yours)
    Privatisation and dribbling asset sales. Further spiking to come for 13. Filthy Few
    commercial Krays lie their pots a stones throw from the shore.

    The Lord sung sam a telegram Tool today
    Cayced the “H” and “Stinkfist” out
    so, for $19 prepaid per month we are able
    and willing to keep tabs on the posse and the pound
    a stirling idea.This freedom tramping is a real take off
    virtually rock into your local public library
    use the loo. Staff log on;
    News Sources
    Press Display
    Library Access
    Titles by Country, Wallah, world at our fingertips for free
    Thats two steps, just some a.v to see the whites of their lyin feline eyes
    To go thanks. Yes, I would walk 500 miles and I would walk 500 more
    to be the man who fools you at your door. Brut 24 hour performance
    Nothin’ like an original Better Man Spoonman for Pearl Jam.

    Low”burn” (couldn’t make that up) High”bury” too
    Whats next? Poverty Bay? Flick is my name
    now when aussie has it’s scrubfires, kiwis have the same
    Tokes urea out his rrrs. Animal Nitrate
    It’s not only India where men give women a curry up
    Calling Doctor Bombay, Calling Doctor Bombay
    Swami Berlusconi’s got away and “returns from the dead”.
    that silver fox

    SAM’s bewitching Arabian Knights
    steaming into narrow straits.’Muz next?
    another rogue “satellite” state 4.95 a plate
    Pyongyangs gettin’ in tune Going Mobile
    another “Shining Son”
    Starvation is a spreading problem; Marmageddon.

    New Brighton, old brighton apiers
    water water everywhere.Wizard spell it.does.not.sink
    back to science; blindly stab botox in the park next son?
    (one luckless family’s holiday tent is pitched at the ablution entrance)
    great sadness to see. always the bungled and botched
    “she’ll be right mate”

    -The Singing Detective (with a long ride from Black Bess)
    -rest tomorow N.I.B, oops I meant Born Again (keep it warm)
    check out The Warning
12. Rogue Trooper 12

    29 December 2012 at 9:44 pm

    We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain, because some are slow to learn.12. In fact
    though by this time you could be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of
    God’s word all over again. You prefer milk, not solid food! 13. Anyone who lives on milk, being still
    an infant, is not aquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature,
    (us old soldiers here bearing The Standard), who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from unhelpful thinking. Therefore, let us leave the elementary teachings about
    Christ (knows what?) and go on to maturity etc etc.

    IV.It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who
    have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are
    crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

    Seven. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop Useful to those for who it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces gorse and california thistles
    is worthless and in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
    (this may well be “hypothetical”, a warning, or a prophecy of more loss to come, yet I do not make stuff up; all these ramblings just come, I scrawl a few lines for about an hour while having
    break fast, or cycling / walking around and then The Word just flows out; the immature beseech
    me to speak in “tongues” Hello? )

    anyway, Jesus is more than ” just alright” with me; Way.

    -John (Back Pages Man)(just checked “beseech” with merriam, and thats exactly what “they”
    attempt. Oh Well, good thing I began with Mk VII and am a convinced Universalist, yet,
    How long, how long must we sing this song?

    Heretaunga.

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