Phil Quin resigns from Labour

Written By: - Date published: 12:37 pm, July 14th, 2015 - 390 comments
Categories: China, cost of living, Financial markets, Globalisation, housing, overseas investment, phil twyford, tenants' rights - Tags:

Labour’s calculated but badly judged weekend adventure into race politics is reverberating.

I find it cynical that Twyford, Little and Labour aren’t “courageous” enough to hold firm on something like the CGT, a tax which would directly impact the comfortable property portfolio owning middle class in Auckland, but they are somehow “courageous” enough to step up and point the finger at the Chinese (when they are now outbidding that same comfortable Auckland middle class and their kids for $900K Mt Eden villas).

Let’s be clear here: apart from popular posturing, no political party appears to have any clue on how to make an Auckland first home affordable for the average worker earning $50K pa, let alone those many who are earning less.

Ban foreign ownership of NZ land I say. But make it an issue of economic sovereignty (a phrase Twyford never used in the weekend), not of race.

Quin says in an email to the Labour Party General Secretary, Tim Barnett:

Dear Mr. Barnett

In light of Labour’s calculated decision over the weekend to deploy racial profiling as a political tactic, I resign my membership of the party.

I am stunned that Labour, as a matter of conscious political strategy, would trawl through a dubiously ­acquired list of property buyers to identify Chinese­sounding names. Even as I write the words, I can scarcely believe that senior party leaders – or anyone of good conscience, for that matter – thought it an advisable course of action. That they are now defending it – even attacking Susan Devoy for her principled comments on the subject – compounds my disappointment.

I lived and worked in Rwanda for several years, including in 2014, during the twentieth commemoration of the genocide against the Tutsi minority. Many of my former colleagues, still dear friends, are among the few who survived the slaughter. They taught me something about what happens when political parties start compiling lists based on ethnicity. Nothing good can come from racial profiling of the kind Labour chose to employ in pursuit of a headline and a poll bump.

It seems to me that what Quin is saying, is that the road to hell is paved with good intentions – and that Labour should have known better. I am trying to find a link to Quin’s full resignation letter. Edit – Here it is: (thanks Stephanie Rodgers!)

Meanwhile Bryce Edwards has compiled a list of top tweets around Labour’s ill-judged racial foray. My favourite from that well known right winger Raybon Kan:

Raybon Kan ‏@RaybonKan

No wonder John A Lee had a tough time in the Labour Party. Lee?!? What sort of a name is that mate? Have you bought a house?!?

As I have been saying, Labour has wondered into the middle of a minefield and it doesn’t even know it yet.

390 comments on “Phil Quin resigns from Labour ”

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  1. Patrick Leyland 1
    14 July 2015 at 12:40 pm

    His name is Phil Quin.

    • Colonial Viper 1.1
      14 July 2015 at 12:53 pm

      Thanks Patrick – corrected

    • dukeofurl 1.2
      14 July 2015 at 1:12 pm

      Never heard of him !

    • Old Mickey 1.3
      14 July 2015 at 2:05 pm

      who is he ?

      • mickysavage 1.3.1
        14 July 2015 at 5:06 pm

        He is no left wing saviour. He has attacked the party publicly for years and think we made a bad decision in keeping Helen Clark as leader. He with the Paganis are firm believers of Blairite third way politics, the sort that gave us the beneficiary on the roof speech from David Shearer.

        He was also allegedly in the process of setting up an alternative left wing party and/or faction within Labour based on Progress in the UK. I suspect that we will see some more activity on this part so his self martyrdom needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

        • heather 1.3.1.1
          14 July 2015 at 5:21 pm

          I agree with you, Phil was talking about ‘people from overseas coming and buying our houses’
          It is interesting, I can not think of another country in the world where you can get off a plane, and buy and house or and island and go home!
          This has been blown out of all proportion by the National Party and their followers with a deliberate intent to cause trouble.
          I too have been a member of the Labour Party for a very long time, and I want to see New Zealanders being able to purchase houses, I do not feel I have to resign from the Labour Party.

        • lprent 1.3.1.2
          14 July 2015 at 5:35 pm

          Indeed. I’ve always considered myself to have been out on the right of Labour because of my intensely international business and economics background. But I’m socially strongly liberal and given to trying to provide workable upward mobility (the latter part distinguishes me from the ACToids – they seem to have social Darwinism genetically wired into their psyche).

          But I have never figured out what in the hell those bozos like Quinn were trying to achieve. Sort of socially conservative basher with a rather strange crony capitalistic bent. But I really suspect that it has more to do with some kind of “I want power/I love the game” leverage than actual thought through convictions.

          Anyway, I’d be rather pleased to see them fade to obscurity.

        • leftie 1.3.1.3
          14 July 2015 at 5:43 pm

          In my humble opinion, it is no great loss this pretender has resigned. Labour is better off.

          • Thom Pietersen 1.3.1.3.1
            14 July 2015 at 8:14 pm

            Agreed – part of the ideological nutbar PC brigade – Labour – working people, working, not bloody bludging. Maybe he could join the elitist arse sitting privileged geoglobal money party (I’d bang in a bit of totalitarianism – if people would keep shtum about the price of a TV).

        • Irascible 1.3.1.4
          14 July 2015 at 6:09 pm

          In all my years in the Labour Party I’ve never met, heard or seen Phil Quin taking an active or positive role at any level. Anything I’ve ever heard about him has been derogatory and derisory. His resignation should, therefore be seen for what it is, grandstanding by a nonentity in an effort to rebuild his often ignored ego.

        • Chris 1.3.1.5
          14 July 2015 at 9:07 pm

          Quin will be very pleased he managed to snag ethnicity as the issue to resign on. Right-wing twat.

  2. Sacha 2
    14 July 2015 at 12:43 pm

    If they were ‘courageous’ they would be standing behind their racist dogwhistling rather than insisting everyone has them wrong.

  3. Anne 3
    14 July 2015 at 12:50 pm

    Glad he’s gone and I hope he takes his right-wing third way friends (eg. Josie Pagani) with him. They can set up their own little think tank and run down Labour (as they have been doing for a very long time) ad infinitum.

    • D'Esterre 3.1
      14 July 2015 at 1:13 pm

      @ Anne: “Glad he’s gone and I hope he takes his right-wing third way friends (eg. Josie Pagani) with him. ”

      Yup. Were I a Labour party member, I’d be delighted at his departure.

    • Dave_1924 3.2
      14 July 2015 at 3:48 pm

      No room for other voices in a broad church Labour Party then Anne? Serious question and not trying to wind you up. Am actually interested in what you believe is the core of NZ Labour Party these days? Cheers

      • greywarshark 3.2.1
        14 July 2015 at 5:00 pm

        @Dave et al
        There must have been an earthquake. Its started the grandfather clocks going, swinging their pendulums. The works haven’t moved since probably before 2000 which is why there are new, naive questions about matters that were stale a decade ago.

        Or may be it’s just such lovely troll bait.

    • Sanctuary 3.3
      14 July 2015 at 4:31 pm

      +100 Anne

      All this has done is given the likes of Quinn and whole pile of other middle class, identity politics Blairist ex-Labour types the fig leaf they needed to start honest about the fact they now
      vote National. Bye bye, you won’t be missed.

    • greywarshark 3.4
      14 July 2015 at 4:57 pm

      Too right, not too left! The Mighty Quin has had his day, and he’s getting so old that he can’t tell an indicative statistic from a firm researched one based on properly collected statistics. But from what i have read of him, he never has. Bet he is doing some good business with the Chinese and that has governed his ‘principled’ resignation.

      Unfortunately you can’t always get good political help these days. So resignation to the reality frequently happens.

    • leftie 3.5
      14 July 2015 at 5:44 pm

      @Anne.
      +1

    • whateva next? 3.6
      14 July 2015 at 5:48 pm

      ad nauseum rather! Labour is about co operation, cohesion and compromise, not a federation of self interested separatists. Time to sort the wheat from the chaff.

      • Anne 3.6.1
        14 July 2015 at 7:17 pm

        ad nauseum rather!

        That’s the word I should have used. Reached the age when the mind seems to go a blank sometimes. Thanks for the correction. 🙂

  4. weka 4
    14 July 2015 at 12:50 pm

    Who is Phil Quin?

    • Colonial Viper 4.1
      14 July 2015 at 12:52 pm

      a former Labour staffer, usually considered to be on the right wing of the party.

      • Paul 4.1.1
        14 July 2015 at 12:56 pm

        So hardly a loss then.

        • Tracey 4.1.1.1
          14 July 2015 at 12:59 pm

          is that the point paul? you usually want ethics from our reps

          • Paul 4.1.1.1.1
            14 July 2015 at 1:13 pm

            I want us to be able to discuss the crisis of housing in New Zealand. Clearly members of the ACT Party are trying to close down this discussion.
            It is not racist.

            As one commentator put it ‘any reasonable country will realise that if they do not allow foreign land purchases in their own country then they should have little expectation to be allowed to buy land in other countries – this is not a racist argument but one of protecting your land for your citizens.’

            • Amanda Atkinson 4.1.1.1.1.1
              14 July 2015 at 1:30 pm

              Stop talking about ACT all the time then, Paul. ACT is irrelevant. No one cares what they say or think, except you. Why? Your ACT comments don’t even make sense.

              • Paul …
                14 July 2015 at 1:34 pm

                Your views on unions previously stated suggest shared ideas with that extremist party.

                • marty mars …
                  14 July 2015 at 4:42 pm

                  Your act is more ACT than act – doesn’t that worry you?

                • Amanda Atkinson …
                  14 July 2015 at 5:12 pm

                  Answer the question. I am sure your obsession with ACT is not directly at me, so for everyone else’s benefit, perhaps you’d like to say something sensible, and explain “why you care what ACT says”, and why you think this debate is being framed by ACT. I think most Standard readers have enough intelligence to make up their own minds about this, depsite what ACT says. What is ACY saying about this? I haven’t heard a peep. Anyway, Twyford is on the right path. He’s got a good policy. Do ACT agree with his housing policy? Enlighten us because I have no idea. If they do, is it suddenly a bad policy, just because ACT agree (if they indeed do) with Tywford in wanting foreigners to build new houses, not buy existing ones?

                • Amanda Atkinson …
                  15 July 2015 at 3:30 pm

                  Oh right, I am an extremist because I spoke about 1 bad union experience. Carefully missing out that I am pro union, and have majority of positive union experiences. As I said before, you are irrelevant, Paul, and so is your vote. Centre votes win elections, not lefty extremists. If you want the left to win, you need us to vote centre left again, like we did when Helen was running the ship, instead of centre right. I’d suggest a change in your approach, if you want centre voters to come left with you again.

                  • Paul …
                    15 July 2015 at 3:33 pm

                    Disagree totally.
                    You sound like a fan of Blair, Quin, Pagani etc.
                    Following the ‘middle road’ has been the death of the Labour Party as it has adopted more and more neoliberal policies to appease the wealthy elite and bankers.
                    It is only countries that have stood up to neoliberalism that have freed themselves.

            • weka 4.1.1.1.1.2
              14 July 2015 at 1:47 pm

              As one commentator put it ‘any reasonable country will realise that if they do not allow foreign land purchases in their own country then they should have little expectation to be allowed to buy land in other countries – this is not a racist argument but one of protecting your land for your citizens.’

              Has anyone who votes on the left and who is raising issues of racism actually said that it’s racist to not allow foreign ownership? Because that’s not what I’ve been hearing, but I might have missed something.

              • marty mars …
                14 July 2015 at 4:03 pm

                I haven’t read anyone saying that. Paul is disingenuous in his dutiful deflection.

              • Nessalt …
                14 July 2015 at 4:08 pm

                the problem isn’t with banning foreign ownership. the problem is identifying one particular group of foreigners as the problem and therefore foreign ownership must be curtailed. THAT’S racist!!

                • weka …
                  14 July 2015 at 4:31 pm

                  yes.

                • mickysavage …
                  14 July 2015 at 4:48 pm

                  The problem is that one particular country’s banking system has $21 trillion in deposit accounts waiting to be spent. This is enough to buy Auckland’s total housing stock about 50 times over.

                  Can someone say how we can discuss this particular aspect without it being considered racist?

                  • Nessalt …
                    14 July 2015 at 5:18 pm

                    the yellow wall of chinese capital? cmon mickey, think harder about the framing.

                    “historically low, even negative interest rates world wide have created a flush of hot money looking for a return. NZ’s relative prosperity, stability combined with the startling recovery from the twin effects of the GFC and a massive earthquake flattening it’s second most important city, make it an attractive investment prospect for international investors. A loose financial regulartory framework designed to encourage foreign investment has created a surging housing market in the largest city auckland. this has priced new zealand residents out of the market and has put the home ownership dream beyond reach for a whole generation. Labour will stop the inflow of foreign capital into our current domestic housing stock to ensure the bubble the national government has allowed to balloon does not tank the nations hopes of further prosperity. labour will to allow foreign investors or potential residents the opportunity to own housing stock in new zealand as long as it is a new build, built on leasehold land with standard 99 year lease terms at favourable rates available to all.”

                    the answer is so simple and allows labour to craft a broad fiscal policy platform that favours all around it. regular lease payments on government land, home ownership is back on the table, concerns about hot capital flowing in to dormant assets whose only attribute is it’s scarcity are completely allayed. the housing stock is increased. A thoughtful, positive policy that pays tribute to the hopes and dreams and positivity of new zealand and truly shows a sense of fair play.

                    or “yellow peril at our shores and doors”. your choice, this isn’t my labour party any more either.

                  • weka …
                    14 July 2015 at 6:09 pm

                    “Can someone say how we can discuss this particular aspect without it being considered racist?”

                    Put it in a sovereignty context rather than an economic one.

                    Focus on a range of inter-related policies.

                    Give examples from all over the country that demonstrated this is about many different countries that have more wealth than NZ (and exchange rate issues).

                    Start a discussion why who owns land is important (which of course is very complex because of NZ’s history, and a problem for Labour because it by and large still supports neoliberal capitalism).

                    Bring in associated issues of social housing (govt and local body), why so many people want/need to live in Auckland, why the people have no control over this, wage rates, the banking system, etc etc.

                    I’d also go off on a tangent about the building industry and why it’s so expensive to build a house now, or why so many barriers are being put in the way of people who can build good houses cheaply.

                    • North …
                      14 July 2015 at 8:27 pm

                      Yeah, Mickey Savage should really be saying – “There’s a nation in this world which I won’t name which has $21 trillion slopping around, just dying to be spent outside of the nation I won’t name…….”

                      You think that’d make a scrap of difference to the domestic-politics invigorated, born-again Nelson Mandela’s on the right ? Or the ‘immaculate’ putatively of the Left. Rather than screeching “racist” they’d be screeching – “Racist, without the balls to name the nation we all know he’s referring to !”

                      Morality check here – how many of the screechers (if they even know about it) care to consider Nelson Mandela’s assertion that Zionist Israel is an apartheid state ? While squatting on their Khandallah sofas viewing the biennial Gaza fireworks, sighingly remarking – “Well, they will fire those rockets !” Not heard much about ‘racism’ in that context.

                      Classism is inextricably tied to racism. Seems it’s overpoweringly seductive, just sometimes, to express outrage – the ‘sometimes’ being when politically rather than philosophically perceived ‘racism’ is seen to relate to a ‘class’ which the screecher readily identifies with.

                      Nah……don’t give a fuck about the $21 trillion and the broad consequences of a truly inflationary scenario for New Zealand. “Whatever happens, I’ll never be touched. Now……let’s angrily disport Our Sometimes Morality !”

                      PS: CV is NOT a subject of my comments. Neither are various others I respect – Marty M – too many to mention actually. Snobs Left or Right and KeyFuckers out for a stroll – Yes.

                    • weka …
                      14 July 2015 at 8:48 pm

                      Yeah, Mickey Savage should really be saying – “There’s a nation in this world which I won’t name which has $21 trillion slopping around, just dying to be spent outside of the nation I won’t name…….”

                      Nice rhetoric, but you get that that’s not what I am saying right?

                    • Ergo Robertina …
                      14 July 2015 at 8:53 pm

                      That’s a false dichotomy in respect of sovereignty versus the economy – that’s kind of the point.
                      But anyways, Fran O’Sullivan’s piece in the Herald tonight on what she calls an ”issue of major public importance” is the best thing I’ve read during this debate/debacle.
                      She says home ownership figures being at their lowest since 1951 mean the problem has to move past political point scoring.

                      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11480867

                    • North …
                      14 July 2015 at 10:17 pm

                      No reply button to your comment to mine below ending “…..that’s not what I am saying right?”.

                      I accept that Weka. Would actually add you to the CV and Marty M list.

                      Just doing a spray on arseholes who couldn’t really give a fuck about racism. ‘Day Trippers’ so to speak.

                    • weka …
                      14 July 2015 at 11:37 pm

                      “That’s a false dichotomy in respect of sovereignty versus the economy – that’s kind of the point.”

                      How so? Labour aren’t talking about sovereignty as far as I can tell. Parker said Labour policy had changed for economic reasons. This means that in the future if economic reasons dictate that we’re better off with foreign investment then that’s what Labour will do. Core principles.

                    • weka …
                      14 July 2015 at 11:38 pm

                      cheers North.

                    • marty mars …
                      15 July 2015 at 12:00 am

                      onya North – I enjoy your posts – kia kaha

                • greywarshark …
                  14 July 2015 at 5:08 pm

                  The problem is that people can’t look at what facts we have dispassionately and analyse them without an emotional reaction that gets in the way of reasoned thinking. And that’s not racist, it’s a fact.
                  And the odd comments against Paul just reveal your inadequate capacity for critical thinking.

                  • Nessalt …
                    14 July 2015 at 5:23 pm

                    that’s the problem here. phil twyford showed no dispassion or analytical reason. just saw a preponderance of chinese names and leapt for the easy headline. as you’ll see somewhere in my response to mickey, the comment seems to dissappear, i just critically smashed the yellow peril argument out of the park with a few well chosen points.

                    you can’t just say things are fact, especially when you don’t know that they are. basing an opinion of a list of surnames gives everyone cause for doubt about validity. well, anyone who can think critically and not blindly toe the party line

                    • McFlock …
                      14 July 2015 at 5:33 pm

                      yep, you sure blew that straw man out of the water. /sarc

                    • Nessalt …
                      14 July 2015 at 5:43 pm

                      what straw man argument? care to refute any of the points?

                      your unceasing positivity must really endear you to your fellow humans. /sarc

                      you’re the guy in the corner at work parties who mumbles into his drink before making some out of context random remark a little to loudly aren’t you?

                    • McFlock …
                      14 July 2015 at 5:46 pm

                      Nobody has made a (to quote you) “yellow peril” argument.

                    • Nessalt …
                      14 July 2015 at 5:53 pm

                      http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/yellow-peril-hysteria-reaches-climax

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Peril#New_Zealand

                      only 60,100 results on google for Early NZ Yellow peril, but the similarities start to build with two hits.

                      know we’ve established that it’s not a straw man argument, got anything else McFlock? a few doozies from your selection of woman-in-her-place jokes?

                      [Any more use of that racist term and you’re gone. TRP]

                    • McFlock …
                      14 July 2015 at 6:05 pm

                      I know the term. It has nothing to do with Twyford or Little or the media releases and debate over the last few days. Labour did not make anything close to that argument, let alone in those terms.

                      Pretending that you “smashed the yellow peril argument out of the park with a few well chosen points” when nobody made that argument is indeed a Straw man argument:

                      A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent’s argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      15 July 2015 at 12:02 am

                      phil twyford showed no dispassion or analytical reason. just saw a preponderance of chinese names and leapt for the easy headline.

                      No moron, that’s not what he did. He had the data available analysed and reported it’s findings. For doing this he got called racist by the broad spectrum of people from those on the Left doing an all out emotional reaction and not listyening to reason to the morally and ethically challenged RWJNs.

                      i just critically smashed the yellow peril argument out of the park with a few well chosen points.

                      There has been no ‘yellow peril’ argument put forward by anybody except you.

                      you can’t just say things are fact, especially when you don’t know that they are.

                      Right, so now you’re calling people liars without any basis.

                      basing an opinion of a list of surnames gives everyone cause for doubt about validity.

                      No it doesn’t. The methodology has been explained and it makes sense. Sure, it’s not going to be 100% perfect but it does show trends – trends that we need to react to via legislation.

                      well, anyone who can think critically and not blindly toe the party line

                      There’s only one group reacting blindly and that’s the group reacting emotionally and it includes you.

                • Thom Pietersen …
                  14 July 2015 at 8:29 pm

                  Foreigners – Yes, not ethnic races. Non sovereign purchasers of land. Using nationally recognised names as a basis V known resident numbers and probable purchase numbers. Racist, racist, racist…

                  The names were a statistical input. Just like most judges in the Maori land courts had English sounding names when we decided to take over the whole of the Waikato because the young night watchman got done in.

                  I’m so fucking offended!

          • dukeofurl 4.1.1.1.2
            14 July 2015 at 1:17 pm

            Thats what people who have never been in government say- principles come first

            The Wellington mayor could tell you about a few rats she had to swallow

    • leftie 4.2
      14 July 2015 at 5:48 pm

      @Weka

      A rightie who pretended to be left. Quin should have joined the National Party.

  5. Sabine 5
    14 July 2015 at 12:54 pm

    Who is Phil Quin?

    Have never heard of him?

  6. Tracey 6
    14 July 2015 at 12:56 pm

    sigh.
    again.

  7. John Williams 7
    14 July 2015 at 12:58 pm

    I’m surprised that Quin was still a member. He’s been acting in a very deleterious pin-head manner for years.

    Even one of Labour’s most strident critics, Trotter, doesn’t believe it’s racist.

    What surprises me about the likes of Quin, Viper, et al is they clearly don’t mind those who don’t have an unending funding stream shut out of owning a house in Auckland for ever!

    Already house ownership in NZ is the lowest since 1951!

    • Tracey 7.1
      14 July 2015 at 1:01 pm

      please list you practical steps to turn it around

      • Stuart Munro 7.1.1
        14 July 2015 at 3:28 pm

        1 Ban foreign ownership of all NZ land.
        2 Set up a reacquisition process – say 5 years notice then state acquires at 80% of GV
        3 Commence a state building program concentrating on small units with 1-2 bedrooms. These should be transitional housing and should in many instances be apartments.
        4 Progressively tax local multiple property ownership. rate steps at 5,10,20,50 & 100 properties. Fixed term exemptions for builders – 2 years from foundations
        5 Introduce a rebate on income tax for non property owners.
        6 Create a pharmac-type state building materials supplier to compete with the current monopolies.
        7 Create a cloud sourced free archive of pre-approved housing plans.
        8 Waive or depreciate student loans on building trades education.

        9 add other ideas to this list.

        • Clemgeopin 7.1.1.1
          14 July 2015 at 5:03 pm

          +1

          Some good thinking there. Worth considering some of those.

          I too have a few other ideas…but I will not publicise them here for now because the clueless National Party crooks will simply copy and plagiarise them like they have done with a lot of previous Labour government’s policies!

          Instead, I will email my proposals direct to the Labour party for consideration.

        • Colonial Viper 7.1.1.2
          14 July 2015 at 10:47 pm

          Nice Stuart Munro – the beginning outlines of an actual comprehensive POLICY PROGRAMME to deal with the lack of affordable housing in Auckland (and the rest of NZ). Not just a two dimensional magic bullet approach which our pollies seem to love.

          • Stuart Munro 7.1.1.2.1
            15 July 2015 at 12:10 am

            Well if I can do that off the top of my head, perhaps the policy resources of Labour and the believe-you-me really concerned communities of Auckland can come up with an integrated program that will:
            1 fix the problem
            2 drive these treacherous and ineffectual scoundrels pretending to be a
            government into the sea (or carbon-positive recycling facility).

    • weka 7.2
      14 July 2015 at 1:49 pm

      “What surprises me about the likes of Quin, Viper, et al is they clearly don’t mind those who don’t have an unending funding stream shut out of owning a house in Auckland for ever!”

      I don’t know about Quin, but if you think that’s what Colonial Viper has been saying then you are a highly advanced idiot. Go read what he actually says instead of making shit up.

  8. Cemetery Jones 8
    14 July 2015 at 1:00 pm

    Phil Quin had been in the Labour Party again? Oh well, I guess he can get back to his barbecues and caucus coups now. Oh, and his writing, his writing that lots of people read on his blog. Phil Quin. Man, a resignation letter. From such a principled guy who had so much to offer the party. Phil Quin.

    • Stuart Munro 8.1
      14 July 2015 at 3:32 pm

      Yes, a tragic loss to Labour – right up there with Stringer’s loss to the CCCP.
      We might even call him ‘a second Stringer’.

  9. Shona 9
    14 July 2015 at 1:05 pm

    Yeah nah. No dog whistle . And who cares anyway ? The Foreigners fucking over our casino economy are fearsomely racist in their attitudes to us. They see us as stupid and lazy and say so in their media . So fuck em! We haven’t had the nous to protect our economic sovereignty we deserve the present situation.Irrespective of how ugly it gets. Too late now for moral high ground. This pathetic political correctness has us hoisted on our own petard.

    • Roflcopter 9.1
      14 July 2015 at 1:42 pm

      Hmmm… where do they say that? Cite?

      And since when has it been racist to call someone stupid and lazy?

    • ankerawshark 9.2
      14 July 2015 at 1:47 pm

      Shona 100+++
      There was a quote in the Herald, possibly from the Chinese News in NZ website, but don’t quote me on that saying we are lazy and spend $100.00 on beer and that’s why we can’t afford housing..

      • weka 9.2.1
        14 July 2015 at 1:51 pm

        Ok, so if I can find something in the Herald that’s say misogynistic, can I assume you are too because you come from the same country as the people who publish the Herald?

        • ankerawshark 9.2.1.1
          14 July 2015 at 3:18 pm

          Weka@9.2.1. I wasn’t making a generalization about the Chinese. I said there was a quote in I think The Herald, that one of the comments from someone who is Chinese made is that the Chinese work hard so deserve to own property and (I guess Pakeha NZders are lazy, beer drinking and that’s why they can’t afford housing.

          I have yet to read anybody putting down the Chinese. All we are saying is it looks very strongly like a significant amount of Ak’s real estate is being bought by People who had a Chinese name and when we control statistically for how likely those with a particular Chinese name are Chinese, then it looks like 39% of the house purchasers are Chinese, when they are only 9% of the population.

          We use statistics all the time. Some a very detailed statistics, some are perhaps not as rigorous. In the absence of rigorous statistics we need to use the best we can get. Especially if it supports lots of anecdotal evidence.

          • weka 9.2.1.1.1
            14 July 2015 at 3:40 pm

            “I wasn’t making a generalization about the Chinese”

            Ok, I’m confused then. I thought you were strongly agreeing with Shona who seems to be saying that because some other people are racist we shouldn’t worry if we are racist also.

            Re stats,

            Do you have a problem with NZ residents/citizens who are Chinese immigrants buying property in Auckland?

            Do you have a problem with NZ residents/citizens who are descendents of Chinese immigrants buying property in Auckland?

            Because I don’t understand why someone being Chinese and buying land in Auckland is worse than someone being American or French or Martian and buying land in Auckland. Or someone being American or English buying land in the South Island (which Labour has promoted and supported in the past btw).

            • ankerawshark 9.2.1.1.1.1
              14 July 2015 at 7:07 pm

              Hi Weka,

              If I gave the impression that I thought it was o.k. to be racist that was the wrong impression. I saw one comment from a Chinese person re lazy and beer drinking. Thats pretty rude and using a cultural stereo type of NZders. It also implies that only hardworking people deserve to buy a house.
              I have no problem with any resident, Chinese English or whoever buying a house to live in. I don’t like property speculation by anyone, but think it is particularly problematic from overseas speculators, a lot of whom I believe to be Chinese. But it makes no difference to me if they are English, American or from wherever. BTW I was/am very against the Australian trust buying up our state houses.

              I don’t consider myself a racist although I wouldn’t walk around proclaiming that “I am not racist”. That is because of my experience with feminist consciousness raising. That if you live in a paradigm that is sexiest and racist, then don’t take for granted that some of those beliefs don’t seep through unconsciously. I believe it is better to scrutinize and challenge one’s beliefs.
              I like many marched in the Springbox tour. My husband is Maori (I know that doesn’t necessarily mean much). I live in a very multi-cultural neighbourhood, which I value as much as anything because the people here are all great neighbours, good community etc. The diversity is good too
              Actually it is frustrating hurtful to think people may think I am a racist because I support this material coming to light. But it want stop me from speaking out about overseas investors and I am grateful to Phil Tywford for shining a torch on this issue. NO ONE to date has presented any evidence whatsoever that Chinese investors aren’t buying a significant amount of residential property. NO ONE. The evidence might not be perfect, but its good enough for me. You see if we are not open to it then we get into denial…………and this is what has happened over lots of important issues e.g. sexual abuse of children. I won’t be part of a culture of denial.

      • Heartbleeding Liberal 9.2.2
        14 July 2015 at 2:20 pm

        I have a feeling that this interview was a farce. It read like one.

      • leftie 9.2.3
        14 July 2015 at 6:07 pm

        @ankerawshark
        Here is the article from the Herald of a Chinese investor who doesn’t live in New Zealand telling Kiwis to stop grumbling and work harder if they want to buy a house in Auckland, and he asks ” Why do you spend $100 on beer when you can save it and spend it on your house one day?”

        Chinese: Kiwis should save harder

        <a href="http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11478720

        • Thom Pietersen 9.2.3.1
          14 July 2015 at 8:41 pm

          Damn straight – we have no right to our culture, and what our forefathers worked for… we need to work like iPhone production leemings forced off their farmland, or have the nuance to fiddle away windfall money. Stuff you racist!

          • leftie 9.2.3.1.1
            14 July 2015 at 11:39 pm

            @Thom Pietersen

            Yep, I became extremely angry too when I read that article in the Herald.

  10. Ad 10
    14 July 2015 at 1:05 pm

    Front page of the NZHerald Sir Don McKinnon gets it.
    You don’t have to like him, but he knows this is damaging our reputation in China.

    Big picture: if Labour want to shut out foreign house-buying capital, expect pretty serious international blowback, both from investors and at diplomatic level.

    • Paul 10.1
      14 July 2015 at 1:10 pm

      No it’s a threat.
      As one commentator put it ‘Translated – We have to be careful we don’t upset a major trading partner! Our Sovereignty be damned!’

      Like the Greeks, we simply have to suck it up to the big guys. We are not allowed to have democratic rights.

      • Ad 10.1.1
        14 July 2015 at 1:46 pm

        So Labour’s armchair real estate warriors may not need to quake, but they do need to accept they are small, with little influence, unlikely to win, and risk of making things worse.

        • Paul 10.1.1.1
          14 July 2015 at 1:50 pm

          That sounds might defeatist of you.
          No doubt you also think we should sign the TPP.

        • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1.2
          14 July 2015 at 2:29 pm

          What would you say if the point was put to referendum and the peoples decision was to ban foreign ownership and investment altogether?

    • Tracey 10.2
      14 July 2015 at 1:23 pm

      is china offended by all the other nations who have restrictions and taxes on foreign ownership or just us? do they trade with aussie… uk… usa or canada?

    • John Williams 10.3
      14 July 2015 at 1:24 pm

      Bollocks!! Hasn’t stopped Australian, British, Canadian investment!

      • Ad 10.3.1
        14 July 2015 at 1:48 pm

        Labour has not framed Australian, British, or Canadian investment.

        • McFlock 10.3.1.1
          14 July 2015 at 3:39 pm

          Because the naming methodology doesn’t have >90% consistency for those demographic groups.

          • Colonial Viper 10.3.1.1.1
            14 July 2015 at 3:41 pm

            Yes, highlighting foreign sounding names is more reliable. But Labour should have broadened its rhetoric to include all offshore buyers of NZ land. It didn’t.

    • Draco T Bastard 10.4
      14 July 2015 at 2:26 pm

      if Labour want to shut out foreign house-buying capital, expect pretty serious international blowback, both from investors and at diplomatic level.

      Our sovereignty isn’t a concern of those outside of NZ. It is to NZers.

    • vaughan little 10.5
      14 July 2015 at 3:17 pm

      not true about the damaged reputation thing.

      the 9% of AKL chinesisch citizens from the get go were bracketed off as being not part of the problem, by definition.

      i actually disagree with Labour on this, because it’s precisely recent migrants (a small percentage of the 9%) who are best placed to exploit local knowledge in channeling hot money into the economy. so a small part of the 9% will likely be punching above their weight when it comes to damaging the local economy. as has been said, that’s not their fault because it’s all legal and they’re doing what’s good for them. the fault is with NZ’s lawmakers, and they need to step up and change the law.

      but that’s beside the point. labour from the start were saying there are two groups of chinese in the property market, one group is just fine, one group is not. you can’t be clearer than that, and anyone seeing racism is simply ignoring labour’s methodology.

      • Roflcopter 10.5.1
        14 July 2015 at 3:32 pm

        Oh, so because they weren’t focusing on ALL Chinese, they’re only mildly racist?

      • Sacha 10.5.2
        14 July 2015 at 3:42 pm

        “labour from the start were saying there are two groups of chinese in the property market, one group is just fine, one group is not. ”

        Go back and listen to Twyford’s own words. That is simply not what he actually said. Sweet that you would like it to be true, but honestly why do you think so many people across the political spectrum are reacting like this?

    • vaughan little 10.6
      14 July 2015 at 3:21 pm

      “china’s watching you”. thanks for your input, don, but we’re a democracy and we’ll move ahead with public debate.

    • SPC 10.7
      14 July 2015 at 4:59 pm

      Oz got a better trade deal than we did and they have restrictions on foreign ownership.

    • North 10.8
      14 July 2015 at 8:49 pm

      So we’re already fucked are we Ad ? We have only one choice do we ? We just lie down and say “Anyone else ?”, do we ?

      If what you say has any attachment to reality then the dangers of unlimited cheap foreign money, are palpable. Only the already rich will have the “Brighter Future”.

      You like that Ad ?

  11. dukeofurl 11
    14 July 2015 at 1:15 pm

    “Phil Quin had been in the Labour Party again? ”

    The only readers of his blog was the beehive drones who feed Slater and Farrar

  12. shorts 12
    14 July 2015 at 1:17 pm

    the issue and point Labour misses with their entire tactic is these Chinese or wherever they are from people aren’t doing anything wrong…. these speculators and investors are 100% within their legal rights in NZ and therein lies the problem – its not a (PRC) Chinese problem its a kiwi problem!

    The labour leadership would be better off saying lets stop being bloody idiots and tighten up our laws to stop foriengers buying everything that is and isn’t nailed down in our country. Instead they’ve insulted a lot of people which seems silly given the popularist nature of modern day politics

    • Tracey 12.1
      14 July 2015 at 1:25 pm

      they have been saying your second paragraph but 49% just nod to this govt.

      • shorts 12.1.1
        14 July 2015 at 2:00 pm

        I get that, its the Chinese part that wasn’t needed that someone decided would be a good strategy that has and will continue to see labour MPs siting on the opposition benches checking their property portfolios

        I expect little but corruption from National – from Labour I demand more than mishandling

        • Tracey 12.1.1.1
          14 July 2015 at 2:07 pm

          neighbours just sold a run down villa on 900m2 section. hard to subdivide cos front house cant be moved or demolished and driveway is too narrow to meet regs.

          $2.15m

          auction.

          • Visubversaviper 12.1.1.1.1
            14 July 2015 at 4:32 pm

            It is not hard to get approval to demolish a pre-1944 house. All you need to do is to show that it is not worthy of scheduling – not a speicial example of its type and no-one important lived there. It protects the realy good stuff but not run of the mill type villas.

            The developer would have know that.

            • Tracey 12.1.1.1.1.1
              14 July 2015 at 7:03 pm

              so they can apply to have the current situation revoked?

              • Visubversa …
                14 July 2015 at 9:51 pm

                No, if it is the pre-1944 overlay, they apply to remove or demolish the villa. Restricted Discretionary under the Unitary Plan. Unless the villa is really special, consent is likely to be granted.

          • RedLogix 12.1.1.1.2
            14 July 2015 at 8:54 pm

            OK … I’m in Auckland right now visiting my father. He lives in a small street with just 22 houses. Him and the neighbour are the last two non-Asian owners left.

            Knock on door just after dinner tonight. Asian agent offering three times the QV for the place. Explained their buyers want to get in before the door is closed. Didn’t really care how much they paid – the more the better it seemed.

            This is insane.

            • mickysavage 12.1.1.1.2.1
              14 July 2015 at 9:32 pm

              Which suburb?

              • RedLogix …
                15 July 2015 at 10:41 am

                Epsom of course.

                I should add that I more or less played him a bit. My dad doesn’t want to sell on any terms right now, and I strongly suspected this agent was playing a ‘bait and switch’ scam himself.

                So on reflection I don’t think his offers were real, but nor are they being made in a total vacuum either.

                My father was pretty wound up about it.

            • Anne 12.1.1.1.2.2
              14 July 2015 at 9:38 pm

              Insanity is the new sanity Redlogix. And be careful about repeating personal experiences here because you are likely to raise the ire of the trolling brigade. Anecdotal evidence is depicted as hallucinating at best… vile racism at worst.

              In light of the huge publicity you would think they might lie low for a while. You should have played along with him/her and requested a card. It might have been useful to see what transpired – maybe evidence for further down the track.

              • marty mars …
                14 July 2015 at 9:51 pm

                my god – lie low – maybe we need an underground railway just in case a labour supporter is out there jotting number plates down for The Man

    • tinfoilhat 12.2
      14 July 2015 at 1:25 pm

      yep – pretty much.

      Instead as is the usual case Labour have shown themselves to be at best political incompetents and at worst dog-whistling xenophobes/bigots.

      • Tracey 12.2.1
        14 July 2015 at 1:55 pm

        what? ALL those countries restrict foreign property purchase and yet china still trades with them..

        • alwyn 12.2.1.1
          14 July 2015 at 2:26 pm

          There was a New Zealand expatriate, living in China, who was interviewed on what the Chinese reaction would be. It was on this morning’s “Morning Report”.
          http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/201762284
          His basic point was that the Chinese wouldn’t have the slightest difficulty with restrictions on foreign residents, or even immigrants having restrictions placed on their being able to buy property.
          The problem was that a major political party was singling out Chinese specifically and it was that fact that would be seen as racist, and offensive.

          • Tracey 12.2.1.1.1
            14 July 2015 at 7:06 pm

            well when do we expect trade and tourism to begin dropping cos of this?

            i remember when shipley oppressed freedom of movement/protest to save chinese sensibilities…

          • Thom Pietersen 12.2.1.1.2
            14 July 2015 at 8:51 pm

            We have to be honest – there is a save face thing in national Chinese culture – and I will get slammed for this, but I would put it alongside westerners paternalistic tendencies, funnily enough demonstrated here…

    • Colonial Viper 12.3
      14 July 2015 at 1:30 pm

      Yes, the Auckland housing bubble is a serious problem which the NZ leadership class has let expand since 2001/2002.

      • Tracey 12.3.1
        14 July 2015 at 1:56 pm

        the last time auckland central property prices went backwards was after the 87 crash… but they bounce back quickly.

        • Macro 12.3.1.1
          14 July 2015 at 9:43 pm

          Actually there was a dip in the market around 2000 – prices went down for a while, before lifting again in 2002-3. The office I was in in Green Bay listed 1 house in 3 months! There was nothing selling – and no vendors. It wasn’t a good time to try one’s had at real estate 🙂

    • McFlock 12.4
      14 July 2015 at 1:43 pm

      Well, they have been.
      And the tories said that foreign ownership wasn’t really happening all that much. And refused to measure it.

      It’s the child poverty problem all over again, only this time the data isn’t centrally collected let alone publicly available. Tory business as usual.

      So Labour used a metric that was, frankly, as dodgy as fuck (not so much due to the names/frequency matching, just sample bias issues etc). To get the point across that the only metric even vaguely available at least provides an indication that the problem of overseas/non-resident speculation exists an inflates the Auckland market.

      So the steps need to be*:
      a) demonstrate a problem probably exists;
      b) get an accurate measure of the problem (registered NZ-non-resident dwelling owners);
      c) if the measure demonstrates the existence of a significant problem, solve it.

      *well, for those of use who need real-world data because we can’t read the matrix as it flows by, anyway

      • Tracey 12.4.1
        14 July 2015 at 1:58 pm

        and why wouldnt they want to measure it…

        • McFlock 12.4.1.1
          14 July 2015 at 2:06 pm

          If you close your eyes and then insist you can’t see anything bad, people are just discriminating against the blind if they call you a liar.

        • keyman 12.4.1.2
          15 July 2015 at 6:37 am

          real estate agents are make a killing land owning Epsom torries are making a killing and if the money flow from china stops house prices have a major correction back to a level this economy can pay for on new Zealand incomes. government doesn’t want know !

          • Tracey 12.4.1.2.1
            16 July 2015 at 10:09 am

            Peter Thompson being all contrary about this data…. this Nat Party donor has 500 Chinese agents on his books and specifically tells people if they want a high price then use B & T cos of the number of its agents in China or with Chinese mainland contacts…

            He is making shitloads off this particular market an is specifically promoting it. I know cos last year after we took our house off the market I got his letter telling me to use their Chinese connections to get the highest price..

  13. tinfoilhat 13
    14 July 2015 at 1:23 pm

    @CV I know you are trying to fight the good fight from within Labour, but as I have said before we would welcome your energy and passion with open arms in the Green movement.

  14. Shona 14
    14 July 2015 at 1:23 pm

    Yeah? Well trading insults is start.

  15. Paul 15
    14 July 2015 at 1:25 pm

    Chris Trotter.

    ‘China now stands where Britain stood: an economic colossus with expectations of this country that New Zealanders are only reluctantly beginning to comprehend. The thought that the Chinese might want something in return for opening up their market to our milk powder and baby formula has come very late to the ordinary Kiwi.

    That Labour is leading the discussion about how much, precisely, the Chinese have a right to expect from New Zealanders is entirely fitting. After all, it was Labour who sealed the deal. It was Labour, too, who presided over the electorally unmandated “turn” towards Asia in the late-80s. That they are, at last, addressing the misgivings expressed to me by Sonja Davies’ all those years ago, is to be applauded – not condemned.

    Labour’s Chinese whispers have nothing to do with racism. They’re about national sovereignty and the people’s will.’

    http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2015/07/chinese-whispers.html

    • weka 15.1
      14 July 2015 at 1:54 pm

      oh ffs. We’re not talking about China. We’re talking about people who bought houses in Auckland who have names that sound Chinese. Can you honestly not tell the difference?

      • Galeandra 15.1.1
        14 July 2015 at 2:32 pm

        oh ffs. We’re talking about China. We’re talking about people with capital from China who bought houses in Auckland but no one will tells us how many so we assayed lists of buyers and counted the names that sound Chinese. Can you honestly not tell the difference?

        • weka 15.1.1.1
          14 July 2015 at 2:45 pm

          Yeah, I can tell the difference, that’s the point. You obviously didn’t understand what I just said. We (the people talking about racism), are talking about how Chinese people were targeted. That’s not about China. I assume you understand that there people in NZ who are Chinese or of Chinese descent who don’t actually live in China right?

          • McFlock 15.1.1.1.1
            14 July 2015 at 3:04 pm

            A significant sector of the resident population appears to be purchasing houses at something like six times the rate of equivalent sectors.

            Would there at least be some basis for examining why that might be, and measuring likely factors involved in that situation, or even whether it’s a measurable difference within the resident population as opposed to the vagaries of global economics?

            • weka 15.1.1.1.1.1
              14 July 2015 at 3:34 pm

              Yes. But not the way Labour tried to do it.

              • McFlock …
                14 July 2015 at 3:45 pm

                All Labour did was establish the first sentence, because that’s all that the available data was capable of.

                Frankly, I’d be impressed if anyone could explain how a domestic population segment could purchase houses at six times the rate of everyone else when that population’s national median income is significantly less than the majority of the population when mortgage numbers are static or falling. There seems to be a mismatch in the inputs.

                A register of overseas dwelling ownership is the logical next step in figuring out what’s going on.

                • weka …
                  14 July 2015 at 4:30 pm

                  Can you please explain to me why the words China and Chinese needed to be used in this press release?

                  http://campaign.labour.org.nz/time_for_foreign_buyers_register

                  • McFlock …
                    14 July 2015 at 4:49 pm

                    To link it with the current media reports and debate on the recent research.

                  • mickysavage …
                    14 July 2015 at 5:02 pm

                    Weka believe me I have a pretty good idea of what is happening in Auckland. There is a tidal wave of investment coming in from overseas. Local people cannot do anything about it. Either we put restrictions on or we give up on the notion that our society should have an expectation that ordinary people can own their own home.

                    • marty mars …
                      14 July 2015 at 5:09 pm

                      If chinesesoundingnamed persons never bought another property in auckland would the problem be fixed?

                    • lprent []
                      14 July 2015 at 5:25 pm

                      You mean a non-resident one?

                      Nope, but I suspect that the rate of increase in housing prices in Auckland would drop to close to zero like it usually does after our usual 2-3 year housing craziness. There would still remain the problem of having a surplus of some kinds of housing in some areas and an acute shortage of other types in many areas.

                      There is a lot of housing tied up with people who have pretty well paid off their housing but can’t find any suitable housing to move to. So they are staying put. And this isn’t just older people. A large chunk of the mid-40s are like that these days. Paradoxically having the type of bull housing market we have at present in Auckland doesn’t mean that people get what they need, they get what the developers think that they can get the most profit from. That is the mansions (good for asset values for overseas investors) or micro bedroom apartments and townhouses that give the highest rental yields.

                    • weka …
                      14 July 2015 at 5:55 pm

                      “Weka believe me I have a pretty good idea of what is happening in Auckland. There is a tidal wave of investment coming in from overseas. Local people cannot do anything about it. Either we put restrictions on or we give up on the notion that our society should have an expectation that ordinary people can own their own home.”

                      Right. So do you understand that I’m not against the issue being raised and addressed? (the issue being overseas money, not the Chinese). That in fact I want restrictions put in place, far more than what Labour are talking about. I want a ban on overseas ownership unless there is a bloody good cultural or environmental reason (fuck the economic reasons). I want to see our immigration policy changed so that cultural reasons become more important than economic ones (imagine if we’d spent the last 30 years prioritising cultural immigration from China rather than economic immigration).

                      I mean, I live in the country and I have a pretty good idea of what’s happening in the bottom half of the South Island with rural land. It’s the same story. Overseas money whether from immigration or overseas investment is outcompeting locals. Locals can’t do anything about it. This isn’t new. Successive governments (National and Labour) have been supporting and promoting this situation. I read that thing earlier about Labour’s history and like you I remember when we were told we were part of Asia etc. FFS, some of us have been against foreign ownership for decades.

                      I just don’t get why it’s so hard to understand that focusing on the Chinese is very problematic, although it’s just occured to me that Labour could be unaware of the long standing problems elsewhere in the country that overseas money has created.

                      Let me put it another way. The problem isn’t the Chinese. It’s the governance of NZ. I’d have a bit more sympathy for Labour if I saw them doing a genuine mea culpa (and throwing in an apology for Rogernomics while they’re at it), instead of what looks to me like an attempt at protecting investor class assets.

                      /rant

                  • adam …
                    14 July 2015 at 5:06 pm

                    Weka I feel I need to do a public service and link to what bill said to me the other day.

                    http://thestandard.org.nz/china-crisis/#comment-1042139

                    There is a real disconnect and twisting of the view point that the twit Tywford chose to put him comments in racial terms, and as a left wing person, I find that repulsive. I don’t know why we are being blasted for saying that – it’s probably a lot of things. But, when they cool down in maybe a week or so – sane heads may see what we are trying to say, does not at any level diminish the need to look for, and offer solutions to, the housing crisis in this country.

                    A crisis which extends from social housing to rights for people renting. To many of us being serf like tenants. As the ranting has got a little less vitriolic in the last day or so, and I hope people will get down to the business of extending the debate.

                • weka …
                  14 July 2015 at 4:33 pm

                  supplementary question. What would you want to see happen if there are signicant numbers of Chinese NZers buying housing in Auckland? (ie significantly above the 9% population).

                  • McFlock …
                    14 July 2015 at 4:46 pm

                    I’d probably want to look at it in the same way we look for reasons why groups are over- or under-represented in other areas. Why are men over-represented on boards of directors. Why are Maori over-represented in prison. Do more rich kids go on to tertiary education (incl polytech) than poor. Why do European kids have more gromment surgeries up to the age of 5, when Maori and Polynesian kids massively outstrip European…

                    and many more.

                    As a general rule, I ask first whether there is a real, measurable difference. If so, what factors are at play other than the demographic cut in question- is ethnicity simply a proxy for poverty or something. Does the disparity really matter. Does it require specific interventions, research, or will it solve itself as macro policies have an indirect impact on the cause of the disparity.

                    • weka …
                      14 July 2015 at 6:01 pm

                      I think that sidesteps what I was asking. Which is, what happens if we find out it’s NZers that are part of the problem, (who happen to be Chinese or Chinese descent)? Shall we start kicking them out? Auditing them to see where their money is coming from?

                      Much of my argument comes from the fact that I’ve seen this shit for years in the South Island, only it’s mainly the English and US immigrants that have been the problem. I don’t see anyone race profiling them though.

                    • lprent []
                      14 July 2015 at 6:24 pm

                      Yes it has happened forever. In Auckland we get these bumps when we either have a big bump in immigration numbers or the construction industry focuses on commercial for too long.

                      BTW: That includes internal immigration. I suspect the 2011 kickoff of the current price ramp was triggered by the influx of people from Christchurch post-quake, and then continued by investment speculation from offshore money.

                    • McFlock …
                      14 July 2015 at 6:23 pm

                      Ok then: let’s assume that all of the criteria I mentioned have been met: that there is a measurable and significant difference in landlording amongs NZers of Chinese descent, and the trading activity is escalating housing prices beyond affordability of most people, and we know all the wheres and whyfors as to what’s going on, no research required.

                      That means that either the purchasers are leveraging off their properties (well, mortgages are static, so this is definitely fantasy land) or they are buying with cash. One can be controlled with financial market regulations on the level to which properties can be levied by investors. Ther other can be controlled by either progressive capital gains taxes or a variety of other measures.

                      Or, maybe, this hypothetical situation is not the result of unfair advantage given to capital, but some factor that means a small cluster of people use their money better (not even a directly ethnic cluster as such, just a confounding factor), so buy more properties. Maybe rather than restricting the traders, we learn from them to improve everyone else’s skills.

                      The point is that there’s no ethnically-based response, because it’s not an ethnically-based situation. It’s a situation that happens to be currently skewed towards one identifiable ethnicity because of the global economy. But this skewing strongly indicates that the nats claim of 1% is bullshit.

                    • Thom Pietersen …
                      14 July 2015 at 8:59 pm

                      Family money, societal disenfranchisement, and education. No, more no less.

          • Galeandra 15.1.1.1.2
            14 July 2015 at 4:42 pm

            Yeah, I do understand as my sister is one, cept she now lives in Oz. Mean time I regard expressions like ffs as tantamount to yelling at people. in reply to 15.1.1.1 above

        • Paul 15.1.1.2
          14 July 2015 at 2:46 pm

          Can’t believe how all these people are desperately trying to make this a race issue, as opposed to a sovereignty issue.
          Maybe they just want to close down a vital debate.
          Maybe.

          • Anne 15.1.1.2.1
            14 July 2015 at 4:01 pm

            Because that was the perception they chose to make when the story broke over the week-end. Together with the Clayton’s celebrity mob (eg. Bryce Edwards, who stick their finger in the air and go wherever the media flow takes them) they now have to justify their stance. That usually means refusing to read all the evidence available including those of us WHO ACTUALLY LIVE IN AUCKLAND and have seen and experienced the overwhelming evidence.

            • marty mars 15.1.1.2.1.2
              14 July 2015 at 4:39 pm

              Little and twyford knew the potential for blowback but they considered the cost acceptable. The cost is the debate and perception raised – totally foreseeable and forseen. So what’s the problem? That they ham-fisted it? That they underestimated the blowback? That by framing the issue the way they did they distracted from the real point that they could have made? That they point they are making is childish in it’s simplicity and understanding of the issues relating to overheated property markets?

              So when you go to your next auction you’ll be bad-mouthing any asian looking person will you? – yeah that will fix the problem.

              • lprent …
                14 July 2015 at 6:16 pm

                That they point they are making is childish in it’s simplicity and understanding of the issues relating to overheated property markets?

                Please consider that in my view you just described yourself in that statement? I really suspect that you underestimate exactly how pissed off a lot of Aucklanders are getting over this debacle of a market here.

                Sure there is a building shortage – mainly because those National/Act idiots in Wellington keep getting in the frigging way with silliness like their mandated Auckland supershitty that took years out of the build cycle.

                But we’re way past that now. The prices are responding to silly money chasing the rewards from two years ago.

                • weka …
                  14 July 2015 at 6:21 pm

                  I suspect that Aucklanders also underestimate how many people outside of Auckland are rolling their eyes a bit and going, yeah, we know. It’s not like this issue hasn’t been going on in NZ for a long time, not just Auckland.

                  (plus there’s the issue of Aucklanders coming south with their big bucks and raising house and land prices that way)

                  • lprent …
                    14 July 2015 at 7:59 pm

                    Oh I know that is happening. But house prices seldom go as crazy downcountry as they do up here. The exodus is real as well.

                    My parents for instance when they retired. Why live around Auckland when they could realise the assets and live in Rotorua a lot cheaper.

                    But you notice that it has largely stopped now? The people remaining in Auckland are those who are here for the work and/or the lifestyles and/or family.

                    That is why the house prices down country have slowed right down.

                    I’d love to live on a hill in Dunedin, or up in Central, or any number of places.

                    However I’m addicted to programming, and these days the most interesting area for me is with writing code for specialised vertical market hardware. There are hundreds of firms doing that here, and probably less than a hundred through the rest of the country. Organisations cluster around each other and their common support infrastructure companies.

                    Lyn is the same. She does documentaries and works at the uni doing that and media as well. In NZ, the facilities and the people for that are up here.

                    Both of us need international airports close because of the supply chains and the markets.

                    When we retire, ie if Lyn retires before I drop dead – she is 16 years younger than I am and I already had a myrocardial infraction, then you can probably expect us to move down country. Maybe back to her home town in Invercargill, or her well remembered town of Dunedin.

                • marty mars …
                  14 July 2015 at 6:44 pm

                  “I really suspect that you underestimate exactly how pissed off a lot of Aucklanders are getting over this debacle of a market here.”

                  No I get it thanks. Labour have read the tea-leaves and will get exactly what they deserve… meanwhile the problem will continue to the next part of the cycle as it always does.

                  • lprent …
                    14 July 2015 at 8:02 pm

                    mm: Possibly. We’ll have to wait for the next part of the cycle.

                    However in the meantime there is this structural problem in Auckland that needs solving. Like many others up here, I couldn’t really give damn who solves it. I just want it to stop getting so much worse.

              • Thom Pietersen …
                14 July 2015 at 9:08 pm

                They already are Marty – is that not a problem? It’ll only get worse, people tend to devolve into tribalism when under attack.

                I’m going to sit in an ivory tower and bleat pious platitudes.

                • marty mars …
                  14 July 2015 at 9:23 pm

                  “I’m going to sit in an ivory tower and bleat pious platitudes.”

                  Don’t do it Thom – fight racism it is so corrosive your world will disintegrate in front of your eyes if you don’t – stand up, be brave.

          • marty mars 15.1.1.2.2
            14 July 2015 at 4:09 pm

            YOU are the one trying to close the debate down – own it ffs

      • Paul 15.1.2
        14 July 2015 at 2:45 pm

        So you disagree with Chris Trotter?

        • weka 15.1.2.1
          14 July 2015 at 2:48 pm

          I disagree where he says there is no racism. And I’m not convinced that Labour are mending their ways to make up for what they’ve done in the past. That’s just going off the bit you quoted, I haven’t read the whole article.

      • Amanda Atkinson 15.1.3
        14 July 2015 at 5:33 pm

        Don’t worry Weka, Paul thinks it’s all ACT’s fault this debate. Apparently you Weka, and anyone else who think the race card has been played, have been hood winked by ACT. Me, I think Twyford has an excellent, sensible, logical policy to help Auckland housing. Dial down demand by banning foreigners from buying existing houses, and dialing up supply by encouraging all investors foreign and domestic to build new houses, not by existing ones, makes complete sense. There is not 1 single benefit to NZ in a foreigner buying an existing house here. It’s just a real shame that his good ideas are being lost in this race debate. Bad move Phil.

        • weka 15.1.3.1
          14 July 2015 at 6:13 pm

          I can tell you I have no idea what ACT have been doing on this issue, other than a few comments here saying that they’re using the racism thing against Labour.

          If a foreign investor builds a new house in NZ do they own it? How about the land it’s on?

  16. Tracey 16
    14 July 2015 at 1:28 pm

    hmm trade and diplomatic problems…

    does china trade with usa or aussie… or uk… or canada cos they all restrict or tax foreign property buyers…

  17. Mark 17
    14 July 2015 at 1:31 pm

    Well if thats all it took to get rid of that prick, the Labour Party should have done it ages ago. Now if we were really lucky Josie might join her good friend. That would be the icing on top.

    • Roflcopter 17.1
      14 July 2015 at 1:38 pm

      Why don’t you suggest a Labour MP start having a go at the Islanders…. that might do it.

      • Paul 17.1.1
        14 July 2015 at 1:42 pm

        Trotter.
        ‘Labour’s Chinese whispers have nothing to do with racism. They’re about national sovereignty and the people’s will.’

        • Roflcopter 17.1.1.1
          14 July 2015 at 1:46 pm

          They could have said that, without mentioning China/Chinese, or any other foreign country…. but they did.

          Twyford, Little, Parker… playing the unbecoming race card.

          • Paul 17.1.1.1.1
            14 July 2015 at 1:48 pm

            Do you think non-doms should be allowed to own houses in NZ?
            What did you think of Trotter’s article?

            http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2015/07/chinese-whispers.html

            • weka 17.1.1.1.1.1
              14 July 2015 at 2:50 pm

              Paul can you please link to something where Labour talks about sovereignty and the people’s will?

              • Paul …
                14 July 2015 at 2:51 pm

                Did you read Trotter’s article?
                That did.

                • weka …
                  14 July 2015 at 3:43 pm

                  I’ve read it now and I can’t see anything that quotes Labour talking about sovereignty and the people’s will. Can you please cut and paste the bit you think is relevant?

              • weka …
                14 July 2015 at 3:41 pm

                ‘Non-doms’? Who came up with that term? I have family living overseas who are NZ citizens. Are you suggesting that they shouldn’t be allowed to own land here?

          • Shona 17.1.1.1.2
            14 July 2015 at 2:03 pm

            China is the problem. The data released by Twyford shows that. Whose paying you to troll anyway? Roflcopter ( so passe)This issue is way overdue to be dealt with. Hence the smearing of LAbour over the proposed CGT at the last election farce. National’s paymasters don’t want that. Our dollar would drop without the Chinese speculators( by far the biggest group in terms of numbers of buyers of domestic housing in Auckland ; admittedly foreign corporations spend larger sums on agricultural investment properties)The government has to do what it’s foreign backers tell it to do. We are the same as Greece . We have been sold down the river by our government.And Key is the most corrupt leader we have ever had. Kiwis are stupid, greedy drongos. We deserve everything that is happening to us. And it is going to get much much worse.

            • Colonial Viper 17.1.1.1.2.1
              14 July 2015 at 2:14 pm

              China is the problem. The data released by Twyford shows that.

              Interesting. Was China the problem between 2001 and 2007 when Auckland house prices climbed from $300K to $600K, or has China only become a problem now that Auckland house prices are up over $800K?

              I agree that hot money flows out of China (and other countries) need to be clamped down on hard. But both the last Labour Govt and this National Govt let the property bubble grow and grow.

              • McFlock …
                14 July 2015 at 2:24 pm

                If we’d kept decent stats of foreign ownership, you could have an answer as to whether 2001-07 increases were due to China, US, Aust, or domestic speculation.

                But we didn’t so you can’t.

              • lprent …
                14 July 2015 at 2:38 pm

                Possibly when Auckland prices climbed by an average 26% in a single year?

                http://thestandard.org.nz/nrt-this-is-wrong/

                Looking at the forecast for the coming year, it looks to me like we will either get more than that again (or have a bust). Over this last couple of years, I have been looking for a new apartment. Initially there weren’t any available of the right types. But now there are a lot being built around where we live and want to buy. The supply situation after 5 years of nothing at all is starting to ease as finally the building gears up.

                But we’ve been unable to find anything even vaguely in our price range. They start at $800k and go up for places that are actually worse than my current apartment (that I brought for $170k in 1997). While we have good incomes, they aren’t good enough to pay more than thousand dollars a week for something that is 20 sq metres larger.

                The auctions we’ve attended recently have all been won by the people on the phones – ie agents. The people at the banks say the money isn’t coming from them. There is clearly a *lot* of overseas investment money coming in. At least Labour has identified a probable source.

                Aucklanders have been used to rising house prices for a long time. I’d have to calculate that 2001-2007 (BTW: where is the link?) average, but that looks less than 10% on an annual basis (because of the compounding effects). The difference between slow rises in prices and bloody rapidly increasing spikes is considerable.

                Perhaps you’d like to pull your head out of your high indignation rascist taunting arse and start to deal with the issues everyone up here is having to live with. Perhaps being one of the people down country allows you the luxury of acting that way. But Aucklanders don’t. The costs are too high.

                BTW: I’d point out that on my observation that the vast majority of the people who are waxing indignant about this on this site appear to me to be not living in Auckland. The noisiest and most indignant (like Phil Quinn) are certainly not currently Aucklanders.

                • Karen …
                  14 July 2015 at 3:11 pm

                  Here is a graph showing CPI adjusted median house prices in Auckland from 1992 to 2013. I was looking from one that went from 1980 but need more time for that.
                  http://www.nbr.co.nz/sites/default/files/images/Auckland%20CPI%20adjusted%20since%2092.png

                  I live in Auckland. I bought a one bedroom cottage in 1980 for $25,000. Two years later the cottage next door, which was the same size, sold for $44,000, so rapid increases in house properties in Auckland are not new, and there was no overseas speculation in the early 1980s.

                  I do think there is a problem with overseas based property investment but I think there are a number of reasons that house properties in Auckland are increasing rapidly, including local speculators and land banking.

                  My problem with what Twyford and Salmond did is that racial profiling based on names was bound to be seen as an attack on Chinese generally, including long term residents. The research itself was less of a problem than the framing.

                  • vaughan little …
                    14 July 2015 at 3:25 pm

                    9% vs 39%. if it were racial profiling they would have cast all 39% as illegitimate. but they didn’t. get some nuance.

                    • Karen …
                      14 July 2015 at 3:51 pm

                      It is racial profiling because it focusses on names that that indicate a high probability of Chinese ethnicity.

                  • lprent …
                    14 July 2015 at 4:26 pm

                    Useful graph. I’d point out that there have been a further 20 months of growth in the high 20% range. That has happened when there was no significiant inflation – unlike the 1980s when our current annual inflation was the common monthly inflation rate.

                    When these kinds of really rapid pushes have happened in the past excluding inflation (including in the 1980s) they lasted for quite short periods – typically about 2 years before they stalled. That was because they would hit the limits of what people could afford to pay from their income.

                    ~46 months without a letup is somewhat extreme. Especially when there hasn’t been virtually any increases in income. And the higher density supply situation is starting to get dealt with in the central city. But I swear that the price velocity is actually increasing in our preferred type of property even as the supply gets better.

                    Stats has always had a problem with people attacking the techniques without bothering to check its accuracy.

                    I’ve used the name frequency based systems for estimating canvassing for Labour. For both gender (because so many people don’t put Mr/Miss/Mrs/Ms on the rolls or have Dr, Prof etc), ethnicity, family style, and a whole pile of other guesses. There are known issues with accuracy. But it is always >90% and usually >95% accurate for most parts of Auckland for a number of ‘ethnic’ (actually regional name) groups. And that is with the levels of intermingling of names that happens between families of our citizens and residents.

                    BTW: The gender accuracy is even higher when you use the whole of NZ to do the calculating on first names. My first name being an obvious example. There were about 5 male Lynns known in NZ the last time I looked.

                    I welcome this to the debate because I’ve been getting increasing pissed off with trying to find a new apartment. To the point where you may find The Standard coming to you from my front room in Aussie or the US or even China where there is interesting work (essentially there is none in the rest of NZ for me) and affordable housing of the size that the two of us now need.

                    Trying to buy a new place with our costs jumping from ~$1500/mo to ~$4000/mo and increasing at about 26% per year just isn’t worth the effort of staying here for.

                    • Karen …
                      14 July 2015 at 5:27 pm

                      You are right about much higher inflation in the 1980s – I’d forgotten about that.

                      Not sure you will find Australia any better – Australian cities are having the same problems in spite of having a CGT and non-residents having to do new builds. My understanding about Sydney and Melbourne is that houses and apartment blocks are being built by non residents, but many are being left empty because renting is too much of a hassle. They are relying on a a capital gain because of the housing bubble.

                      I’d love to know how many properties in Auckland are empty .

                    • lprent []
                      14 July 2015 at 7:13 pm

                      I’d love to know how many properties in Auckland are empty .

                      So would I. Anecdote says quite a lot based on quite a few people over the last year telling me about ones close to them. However there really isn’t anyway to tell.

                      With Aussie, The two big cities are over 4 million.

                      But ….
                      Brisbane 2.0 million
                      Perth 1.8 millon
                      Adelaide 1.3 million

                      Auckland 1.4 million.

                      There are jobs in all of those places and 3 bdm median house prices in Adelaide are a leisurely AUD 400k.

                    • Sacha …
                      14 July 2015 at 5:41 pm

                      Cool graph here too, showing the influence of non-local finance over time:
                      http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-house-buying-patterns-in-auckland/?p=343645#post343645

                      [lprent: Wow that is telling. You can see when the investment money pours in, and it isn’t from the banks ]

                    • lprent []
                      14 July 2015 at 7:45 pm

                      I have some strong quibbles about this. To be precise, I suspect that it is the number of house that were vacant on the night, but where the people who normally occupy them were elsewhere. I could be quite wrong about this. I was meaning to go back and look it up, but as usual ran out of time.

                      If it is, then it probably doesn’t show the housing that was deliberately vacant.

                      I’d love to know how that data was measured.

                    • Sacha …
                      14 July 2015 at 7:51 pm

                      @lprent Impressive graphed data, eh.
                      Believe the other is from an official dataset but cannot recall which.

                    • Thom Pietersen …
                      14 July 2015 at 9:14 pm

                      Actually, something I’m hearing more and more me and my suffering are looking to whether we have to go – we’ve missed the boat.

                      Not the country I grew up in.

                • Lindsey …
                  14 July 2015 at 4:40 pm

                  I went to a Council Hearing yesterday on a proposal to build an apartment develpment in Kingsland. I don’t mind about most of it, except the 7 level block facing the Res 1 (heritage) street. Apartments starting at $800,000 and up to $1.3mill. No laundry facilities and 6m2 balconies instead of the required 8m2. Parking 4 levels underground.

                  • lprent …
                    14 July 2015 at 6:04 pm

                    7 stories in Kingsland. Is that for the residential? 4 levels of parking?

                    Outside of the CBD or town centres (New Lynn for instance) I can’t see a reason for more than 4 levels + 2 of parking dug in.

                    Or 3 level townhouses with parking below. Not that I’d ever live in one of those again – the stairways are just so much dead space.

                    My apartment block has 3 levels residential and 2 parking dug in. Nice 10ft stud, 2 carparks, and in my a case polished concrete floor.

                    It has exactly one problem. 51 square metres of internal living space was fine for me on my own with my office at home habits. It is too small with two of us both with office at home habits.

                    Looking around for large places with 2+ bedrooms in the 70-100 sq metre range, they all seem to have two bathrooms, crazy layouts for clothes and storage, etc etc. In other words a lot of effective space wasted to silly walls designed for rentals to group of 3+ people. Low ceilings because people aren’t meant to live there. They are meant to sleep there.

                    Rabbit hutches.

                    • Sacha …
                      14 July 2015 at 7:57 pm

                      “Low ceilings because people aren’t meant to live there. They are meant to sleep there.”

                      That’s worrying. How can councils/governments set building standards to discourage that sort of thing?

                    • Lindsey …
                      14 July 2015 at 10:01 pm

                      Yes, up to 7 levels of apartments with a big hole underneath for 4 levels of parking. Old Kiwi Bacon site up the road from me. Mixed use development 317 -319 New North Rd and 20 and 22 Aitken Terrace. Plans on the Council website.

                • Anne …
                  14 July 2015 at 4:48 pm

                  What irritates me lprent (@ 2:38) is the fact that the racist taunt you refer to is being used because the culprits happen to Chinese. But what if the ethnicity of the foreign investors had been European – or to be more specific German, Dutch or French. What if they were American or South African with assistance from their respective governments? The problem is the same and would attract the same response from Aucklanders in particular. Would that be framed as racist?

                  • lprent …
                    14 July 2015 at 5:54 pm

                    By someone – probably. By so many from such a wide range, probably not.

                    National’s PR line dribblers seem to just see votes used to “the devil you know” to sustain their failing government. Personally I suspect that they and many others are under rating the ability for Auckland’s residents to make up their own mind about who to vote for regardless of the noisy local power brokers and speakers for communities pretensions. Just as Labour has been doing for years.

                    Personally I blame Winston Peters and a whole pile of populist fever running back to the 19th century for the left’s reaction. After having the bigots with their “yellow peril” running around for so long, the left has some reflexive unthinking attitudes of their own. Rather than concentrating on the issue in economic policy terms, outside of Auckland they are reacting to it in reflexive anti-Winston mode.

                    • Anne …
                      14 July 2015 at 7:12 pm

                      A reflexive perception without comprehension of the reality of the situation in Auckland. Perhaps we need to swap domiciles with our more southern counterparts for a couple of years. I think the ‘perception’ of many out-of- towners might change.

                    • Thom Pietersen …
                      14 July 2015 at 9:21 pm

                      A lot of the left actually like (probably not right, respect) Winston. Why’s that? Is he actually a bigot? May be some of us dislike the ideological left bigotry and the removal of the concentration around hard work and reward, while being fair and just.

              • Macro …
                14 July 2015 at 10:16 pm

                Actually CV Auckland house prices went down around 2000. I know, I was selling real estate then. Some of the early gains around 2003 were the market correcting itself. And yes the market was being influence at that time by foreign investment – namely Korean and South African at that time. The North Shore grew substantially at that time as 50,000 Korean and South Africans flooded into the area.
                http://www.enz.org/migrants.html
                The difference here though was that these were actual migrants, bringing money into the country – not the speculative off shore investment that we we are seeing now. I know that it is happening from personal experience, Mickey can tell you it is happening because he see it every day, Red knows that it is happening – his dad just had an offer on his property for 3 times the QV, and those of us who are living here know that it is happening because we see it day by day. And its almost exclusively form one country, with a power of loose change burning holes in investor pockets, and it is very easy to do, and even if the person” buying” the property resides in NZ the actual money behind the deal and the actual purchaser lives off shore and has no intention whatsoever of actually living here. I know it has been happening since 2010 because the people who bought my property in 2010 live and work in China and do not live in NZ, and never have and used a proxy to buy the property.

            • Roflcopter 17.1.1.1.2.2
              14 July 2015 at 2:16 pm

              The Xenophobia is strong with this one.

            • Tanz 17.1.1.1.2.3
              14 July 2015 at 2:31 pm

              I did not vote for him and would love to see him voted out. agree, Key is our most corrupt leader ever…yet strangely, the majority luuurve him. Sickening.

      • Mark 17.1.2
        14 July 2015 at 3:50 pm

        I know you are just an out an out fuckwit but why do you have to confirm it every time you make a post here. What I really want to know is what the tipping point for you fucking off to join another one of your neo liberal wanking mates like Quin on the sidelines. Please tell us, I am up for it

        • Roflcopter 17.1.2.1
          14 July 2015 at 4:07 pm

          Awesome reply, did your Mum help you with the spelling?

          • Mark 17.1.2.1.1
            14 July 2015 at 4:22 pm

            Take your hand off your johnson when you are posting otherwise you just come across as a gold plated wanker. I notice how you completely ignored the question. Mind you that is always the way with you fuckwit tory arseholes. You have the gall to come on here and preach about racism when you represent the most vile, degenerate political party in New Zealands history. Ethics and morals provided free of charge by Mike Sabin.

            • Roflcopter 17.1.2.1.1.1
              14 July 2015 at 6:23 pm

              ooooo… best bit of cut/paste abuse I’ve seen in days. *thumbs up*

              • Mark …
                14 July 2015 at 7:04 pm

                Deflection is your only defence isn’t it fuckwit. Can’t talk about ethics or morals because you don’t have any.The idea that any right wing tosspot like yourself would understand morals or ethics is irony at its best. But here you want to sit on your high horse and preach how terrible we all are.
                Go fuck yourself. The abuse has started yet you fuckhead. There was a time when I just ignored fuckheads like you but not anymore.

                • Roflcopter …
                  14 July 2015 at 8:08 pm

                  Sorry, I missed the bit after “wah wah wah”

                  I haven’t said how terrible everyone is…. just the racist ones.

                  Now, go back and check yer meds before you pop a vein or something.

                  • Mark …
                    14 July 2015 at 8:57 pm

                    Fuck, you are the real deal wanker. Mommy not changed your nappies today because you appear to be full of shit. You would need someone to do everything for you because you are such a conflicted arsehole. You haven’t got the faintest what you are talking about but that doesn’t stop you opening your shit mixer and spewing forth.
                    All you want to do is divert, divert, divert.
                    Remember, for someone to take a moral position, one first has to have some morals and ethics. As a fuckwit right winger you are an immediate fail. National has had its ethics and morality guidelines set out by Cameron Slater and Mike Sabin.
                    And then you want to come on here and take the moral high ground.
                    You and your national cronies are in the sewer pit and your opinion is regarded accordingly.

                    • Thom Pietersen …
                      14 July 2015 at 9:26 pm

                      Haha Mark – let Roflcopter hang off mummy’s teat a bit longer.

                    • Roflcopter …
                      15 July 2015 at 7:33 am

                      Wow, you’re up to 4 paragraphs! Head up your next reply as “Chapter 1: Morals and Ethics”.

                      Be sure to include as many nasty words as possible.

                  • Mark …
                    15 July 2015 at 9:13 am

                    Are you still here fuckwit. It must be really difficult to keep diverting and never face up to the issue. I understand in a way because being in the sewer pit with the Nats means the last thing you ever want to talk about is ethics and morality. But I will keep reminding you as you do have to hold fuckheads to account so I will be be your shadow from now on.

                    • Roflcopter …
                      15 July 2015 at 10:28 am

                      Really…. you go on the attack to cover for the fact that you support Twyford’s race-baiting as a way of getting rid of Quin, and then set to lecture others on morals and ethics.

                      You really are a fine piece of work… you must be so proud!

                      *thumbs up*

                    • Mark …
                      15 July 2015 at 10:47 am

                      You support a party that protects kiddie fuckers. That lets young children die in freezing homes. That runs sleeze campaigns from the Prime Minsters office, that won’t feed hungry children. Thats just a fraction of what you have signed up for as one of the scumbag Nats supporters and you want to talk about ethics and morality. You don’t really want to discuss ethics and morality because you can’t defend these arseholes. And your one of them. A protector of kiddie fuckers.

                    • Roflcopter …
                      15 July 2015 at 11:42 am

                      Congratulations: You have reached Level 2!

                      (you’ve got to be the most disgusting poster that’s ever graced The Standard)

                    • Mark …
                      15 July 2015 at 12:10 pm

                      Divert, divert divert. You support a party that lives in the sewer.
                      By association you live there too. And you want to come on here and talk about morality and ethics. All Nats supporters have to have tunnel vision or else they would have to face the harsh reality they are scum buckets. You are a scum bucket. You haven’t even attempted to defend the National party and its revolting behaviour because its impossible.
                      If you don’t want to be associated with [r0b: deleted – over the top] you need to change your political party. Until you do you are one of them.

                    • Roflcopter …
                      15 July 2015 at 12:14 pm

                      Keep going, I’m sure you can do better than that… you’ve repeated it five times already… try something new… go look up some new naughty words in the dictionary.

                    • Mark …
                      15 July 2015 at 12:27 pm

                      Answer the question fuckhead because it ain’t going away. You support a party that protects kiddie fuckers, that lets children die of the cold and won’t feed hungry children. And you want people to accept that you are an ethical and moral person. Impossible. You are a scum bucket National supporter. I know the reason you can’t answer is you have no defence when you support the sewer party.

                    • Roflcopter …
                      15 July 2015 at 1:05 pm

                      Damn, and I thought you were just warming up… looks like you’re just a bot, repeating, repeating, repeating.

                      C’mon, have a REAL good go at it….

                    • Mark …
                      15 July 2015 at 1:48 pm

                      Just a National Party sewer rat. Down with the slime and filth merchants but I am sure you would say you an upright and model citizen. Unfortunately belonging to the sewer rat party makes that impossible. Just admit that you are a piece of slime and scum and we can move on.Until you face reality and admit that your support of the vile and degenerate sewer rat party reflects on you, I will just carry on.

      • North 17.1.3
        14 July 2015 at 9:50 pm

        Why have a go at the Islanders, particularly ?

  18. Puckish Rogue 18
    14 July 2015 at 1:35 pm

    Labour misses the point? Say it ain’t so…

    • Paul 18.1
      14 July 2015 at 1:39 pm

      Questioning foreign ownership of housing has really got you right wing trolls active hasn’t it?
      Look at the comments under most Herald reports on the subject and count the number of comments in favour of Twyford in comparison to those against.
      But I guess that’s your focus groups are already telling you this and that’s why you and Gosman are working overtime at the moment….

  19. KK 19
    14 July 2015 at 1:39 pm

    Good riddance.

  20. Mike the Savage One 20
    14 July 2015 at 1:39 pm

    Phil Quin has been one of the political liabilities within Labour, I’d say, given some of the stuff he presented in the past. His views are perhaps better at home within National or ACT, I wonder:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11301000

    http://www.philquin.com/blog/2015/6/3/the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-idea-at-the-heart-of-the-nz-labour-gould-review

    http://pundit.co.nz/content/grant-robertson-is-not-as-much-like-joseph-stalin-as-some-would-have-you-think

    Will Josie Pagani be next on the way out? There may be hope for Labour after all, despite of Phil Twyford having put the cat amongst the pigeons, in a manner that could have been done a bit more professionally and carefully.

    I think Phil has just realised that Labour is not heading the way he would like the party to go.

  21. maui 21
    14 July 2015 at 1:44 pm

    Probably a good thing, Quin can now hang with Pagani and Leggett more and work out how Labour becomes a better form of National, and destroy more of the Labour vote with it.

  22. Jenny Kirk 22
    14 July 2015 at 1:55 pm

    Great to see him go ! He’s just a parasite and rightwing with it.

    And it wasn’t racist. It was just a bold step to make the government sit up and take a bit of notice of what’s happening in the Auckland property market (and the rest of the country too). There have been too many stories and anecdotes and friends’ tales about the number of foreigners – especially Chinese – who have flown in to go to Auckland auctions, done their bidding, and flown out again. Its real. And it needs to stop. Good on Labour for finally bringing it out into the open .

    • Tracey 22.1
      14 July 2015 at 2:01 pm

      classifying people by their names isnt as dodgy as by colour? Really?

      • Dave_1924 22.1.1
        14 July 2015 at 4:10 pm

        you seem to be fighting a lonely fight Tracey on this topic. I agree with you the racial profile was very poorly done.

        The issue is house affordability in Auckland and rapid, bubble like price rises that are currently occurring.

        Labour needs to be smarter in framing it and while its difficult due to lack of official stats on offshore buyers of AKL residential property its not impossible. Just go at the Government with anecdotes relentlessly – from what I have seen online it resonates as true with Aucklanders that they are being outbid by offshore interests.

        When the Government says no numbers to back the ancedotes – hit them with “you’re obviously not talking to your electorates because its all anyone is talking about”..

        Facts based discussions are best but that doesn’t mean a campaign can’t be waged without them when the campaign theme resonates with the target market namely Auckland Voters….

        • Karen 22.1.1.1
          14 July 2015 at 4:40 pm

          Well put Dave.

        • Tracey 22.1.1.2
          14 July 2015 at 6:57 pm

          i know there is a housing affordability issue in auckland. and can tell you my first home in morningside cost 145k in 1991 and sold for 410k in 2001 with onlt 25k spent by us on it.

          we need to address both supply and demand.

          i like twyford. alot. but this data was an own goal. not that “chinese” are labours target constituency so i guess they were sacrificing them to their target audience? i think too many forget how many generations of NZers trace back to chines immigration. in the 1800s and early 20th century.
          Ad should be please tho. he has been wanting LP to stoop to nats level if it means winning an election… kind of Orewa-esque

        • Sacha 22.1.1.3
          14 July 2015 at 7:04 pm

          Thanks. I agree the topic is important and that the framing can be done better.

      • Thom Pietersen 22.1.2
        14 July 2015 at 9:34 pm

        Bloody hell. let’s not observe and question our mindset.

    • Roflcopter 22.2
      14 July 2015 at 2:29 pm

      Twyford et al., have offended Chinese enough for them to feel the need to take out full page advertising to put across their side of the story.

      If you can’t see the damage you’ve done to Chinese relationships, in particular, and our status as welcoming of a multi-cultural society, then you you deserve everything you get.

      • Jim Nald 22.2.1
        14 July 2015 at 2:59 pm

        This isn’t good. I hope Labour will be building bridges asap. Caught up with The Standard’s posts and big thanks to Stephanie Rodgers whose antennae during the weekend very quickly picked up on the problematic interview on TV3’s The Nation and gave the heads up about the concerns involved.

    • John Shears 22.3
      14 July 2015 at 4:39 pm

      What a change to read a level, calm , factual , post with no swear words and nobody vilified. Go Jenny.
      Oh! and by the way it is not Rascism, please take note trolls.

      • lprent 22.3.1
        14 July 2015 at 6:17 pm

        🙂

        I probably don’t help much. But I’m afraid that I always prefer getting my point across rather than being polite about it.

      • Tracey 22.3.2
        14 July 2015 at 6:58 pm

        i am not a troll. neither is weka. disagreeing with you doesnt make us wrong.

  23. Policy Parrot 23
    14 July 2015 at 1:57 pm

    I find it thoroughly amusing when National and its friends accuse Labour of racist dogwhistling – when it was the Nats that spent 18 months using racist dogwhistling about the average Kiwi summer weekend day at the beach being under threat from the ‘uppity natives’. They even suckered themselves in their deluded world view so much that they were using facetious “kia-ora’s” in their emails to each other.

  24. ankerawshark 24
    14 July 2015 at 1:57 pm

    Yes just one question. If Labours figures about Chinese investors who don’t live here buying up Ak properties for speculative purposes turn out to be true, do those of you who are throwing around the racism label then think it is o.k. for us to discuss this problem????? Or are we not allowed to discuss it, even if it is true.

    Because I think Labours figures are likely to be true. That’s because there is a lot of anecdotal reports of it happening and they did look at what statistical possibility each name that was possibly Chinese would be Chinese and controlled for that.

    For me it is a little bit like getting good statistics about sexual violence. A lot of it not reported, but we know the rates are higher than what is. And we accept it is a problem. We don’t then say, “that’s really sexist we are hurting men’s feelings”

    BTW Good the issues has forced the resignation of Phil Quin.

  25. Tanz 25
    14 July 2015 at 2:06 pm

    What gets me is that National are saying what Labour used to say and Labour are saying what National used to say. Good on Labour for taking up the issue, but what a pathetic response from National and co. They really don’t want to address anything; they are in bed with China all the way, and don’t care that our kdis’ birthrights are being sold down the road. Instead of being able to even discuss the problem, anyone concerned about China’s large take up of our property is labelled a racist. Where are the real men ??

  26. Puckish Rogue 26
    14 July 2015 at 2:40 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cIBD22RhUE

    Yes, yes purging is good, purge the elements we don’t like from the broad church so that the broad church of Labour may best represent NZ

    • Paul 26.1
      14 July 2015 at 2:49 pm

      It’s amazing how staunchly the members of the extreme right trolling community defend Labour’s right wing clique.
      You’d almost think you had a vested interest in them being in the Labour Party.

      • tc 26.1.1
        14 July 2015 at 2:56 pm

        +1 Phil Quin along with Pagani and most of the other so called ‘left’ commentators in the MSM are all part of the DP multi faceted assault strategy.

        It’s why they get airtime and why this faux outrage angle has been taken by Quin as sheeple fodder that will be feed into radio rant land/hoskins/henry etc

      • Puckish Rogue 26.1.2
        14 July 2015 at 3:54 pm

        Its a broad church right up until someone has a differing opinion

    • Stuart Munro 26.2
      14 July 2015 at 3:46 pm

      Great selfie!

    • Tracey 26.3
      14 July 2015 at 7:01 pm

      its like the self righteous right have erased Orewa speech and the recent attempt to hoodwink Ngati Whatua from their memories

  27. BlueSky 27
    14 July 2015 at 2:46 pm

    “Ban foreign ownership of NZ land I say.”

    Ban ownership of land I say.

    At best people should be able to rent land paying the nation for the privilege. Increase the rent/ confiscate for exploitation.

  28. te reo putake 28
    14 July 2015 at 2:55 pm

    My tuppence worth about Phil Quin:

    Glad he’s gone, wish he’d gone a long time ago. National and ACT are his ideological home and they’re welcome to him. The NZ Labour party doesn’t need constant undermining from people who use their membership as a device to destroy the party from within. It’s cheap, cowardly and dishonest.

    Good riddance, Phil. You were very, very average.

    • adam 28.1
      14 July 2015 at 3:49 pm

      I think, you point to the major problem of labour being a so called broad church party. To many of these people undermining the voice of working people.

      People need to get, to begin with, and for a very long time, labour was a party of radical opposition to the excesses of capitalism. Just read the original Maoriland worker or a printed copy of The Standard, mark one.

      Labour being a middle of the road, moderate party does no one any favours – it’s why I’ve said – It’s holding working people back. I hope people like you te reo putake and others can weed out these cheap, cowardly and dishonest members whose natural home is in a party like act or national. They are the ones who keep the boot at working peoples throat. It’s time more of them were pushed.

    • dukeofurl 28.2
      14 July 2015 at 5:02 pm

      Isnt Phil running these days with Slater at Whaleoil- being the ‘labour sources he talks about constantly’

  29. Jim Nald 29
    14 July 2015 at 3:05 pm

    The comments here and on related posts on TS bring home the very important point that the messenger and the message matter greatly and require careful choice or selection, whether it is Phil Quin or Phil Twyford.

  30. Enough is Enough 30
    14 July 2015 at 3:20 pm

    Brilliant post.

  31. BlueSky 31
    14 July 2015 at 3:32 pm

    No wonder John A Lee had a tough time in the Labour Party. Lee?!? What sort of a name is that mate? Have you bought a house?!?

    A good number of my relatives are Lee’s and of Irish ancestry. NZ citizens of at least 4 generations. Not a drop of Chinese to be seen though and I’m pretty sure none can afford a house in Auckland.

  32. Adrian 32
    14 July 2015 at 3:43 pm

    You’re all missing the point, this money is Chinese GOVERNMENT money, lent at really ridiculously low rates to encourage wide-boys to buy off-shore assets.
    When the wide-boys fall over the Chinese Government claims the asset as the liability is to the Chinese Government owned banks.
    Clever, eh.
    Are we all comfy, read relaxed, about that?

    • Visubversa 32.1
      14 July 2015 at 4:47 pm

      Or what is not Chinese Govt $$$ is ripped off from the Chinese people through corruption and/or exploitation, laundered through bribing Indonesion Govt officials to look the other way while they burn rainforests to plant palm oil. How else would a 24yr old Chinese guy buy a big commercial building in Takapuna?

  33. vaughan little 33
    14 July 2015 at 3:43 pm

    clearly the people crying racism are wrong on this one, and using the resignation of a solitary unwelcome-anyway party member as the headline is just one more sign of how weak the position is.

    this is a problem that needed highlighting and labour is deservedly copping increased popularity as a result.

    however, chinese migrants cannot be expected to have the sophistication to understand the national political culture – i think you have to grow up in it, have grown up in something similar, or be quite involved to grasp what’s going on in nz politics. chinese tend not to integrate well into the cultures they land in, and i understand why many of them will be feeling worried about this. i sincerely hope that labour has figured out a strategy for engaging with local chinese communities on this problem, to communicate where labour is coming from, but i doubt they have. so labour has probably foreseeably created unease amongst a vulnerable population that isn’t famous for understanding what’s going on around it in nz.

    and lets remember that while labour is clearly not racist, their research will be picked up by quite racist people, and it’ll make the cultural environment a less pleasant one to be in for chinese migrants.

    • Sacha 33.1
      14 July 2015 at 3:50 pm

      Pfft. When you dogwhistle, you expect some barking. Labour’s ‘leaders’ knew exactly what they were doing by framing this as a problem with Chinese people rather than with foreign investors.

      No use ducking and weaving now when the consequences arrive. And there will probably be a nice polling bump from people deserting Winston First (which may be larger than the numbers leaving Labour for the Greens). Embrace the redness. And do carry on making sweeping generalisations about other cultures. It’s the way to a brighter future, I hear.

    • vaughan little 33.2
      14 July 2015 at 3:52 pm

      so to sum up, this needed to happen but there were always going to be some negative consequences, which a super-sharp labour could have positioned itself better to partially mitigate.

    • cogito 33.3
      14 July 2015 at 6:41 pm

      “a vulnerable population that isn’t famous for understanding what’s going on around it in nz.”

      LOL. They understand enough to go to auctions, buy houses and donate to the National Party.

  34. Fustercluck 34
    14 July 2015 at 4:05 pm

    Um…”Chinese” is not a “race” it is a name we give to the citizens of the nation-state of China. There are many “races” (for those who believe that the term means anything at all) in China.

    What is being discussed is the unbridled effects of Chinese capital flight on the NZ economy in general and the real estate market in particular.

    Those that raise the “race card” on both sides are merely hoisting a straw man.

    As long as NZ has permissive overseas ownership regulations we will continue to see our land snapped up as a safe investment for those seeking refuge from the latest crisis of capital.

    For our currency-trader PM to avoid discussing the implications of capital flight, i.e., how he made his money, is yet another of the herd of elephants in the room and a massive lie by omission!

    • Galeandra 34.1
      14 July 2015 at 4:56 pm

      Well made points. Sacha will be along in a while.

    • Sacha 34.2
      14 July 2015 at 6:01 pm

      ‘Chinese’ is an ethnic group of people who live in many nations including China and (gasp) New Zealand.

      We have had a problem for over a decade in NZ of foreign capital inflating our unregulated residential property bubble. For most of that time the main sources were nations like the US, UK and Australia but in the last couple of years (and especially months) China has grown dominant.

      It makes sense for Labour to look there (and practically it is harder to distinguish US/UK/Australian surnames from Pakeha ones).

      As an opposition party who wants to draw attention to that problem it makes sense to pin the responsibility on the current NZ government that has done nothing about it because the rating agencies they worship are quite happy for NZ to be balancing our obscene foreign debt levels with more foreign equity.

      There are ways of doing that which do not cloud the message with echoes of historic and current racist attitudes towards specific ethnic groups. Despite Labour’s woeful incompetence at political messaging for the last 7 years, this seems likely to be a deliberate choice to do otherwise. It may clarify what Labour stands for. Some will like that, some won’t.

      It may signal a coalition with NZ First and not the Greens. Some will like that, some won’t.

      The discussion may move on to the underlying core issue in coming days, but it sure gives the government an easy way to avoid that if they can simply chant ‘racist’ across the debating chamber and rely on the media to faithfully relay that to voters.

      Maybe that’s a risk worth taking? I guess we will find out.

  35. Binders full of women 35
    14 July 2015 at 4:06 pm

    Three friends have recently bought houses all have Anglo sounding names ( even the French one) all 3 are foreign…. This clusterlabfuck reminds me of the angst that hit USA re japan bashing in the 80s…. They were buying everything … Yet when they checked (obviously had some kind of register….. Of property or capital inflow) japan was a lowly sixth after uk holland ( vast swathes of manhattan) Italy Canada and even Australia…

    • Fustercluck 35.1
      14 July 2015 at 4:50 pm

      You will note that my comments pertained to capital flight of a generic type, not Chinese or American (although both are an issue…Harvard University has been as aggressive a buyer of dairy farms as any Chinese entity). Perhaps you should look up from your binders long enough to properly read a post before you twitch on the keyboard again.

      • Fustercluck 35.1.1
        14 July 2015 at 5:21 pm

        Should have said: “Capital flight, currently Chinese, but of any nationality in general.” Binder may have caught me with a lazy edit. Damn!

    • Sacha 35.2
      14 July 2015 at 6:44 pm

      “holland ( vast swathes of manhattan)”

      reclaiming territory.

    • Thom Pietersen 35.3
      14 July 2015 at 9:49 pm

      Please go to an Auckland house auction – before you dribble all over your keyboard. The Global macro economics have changed since the 80’s – that was mainly commercial property – NOT our homes.

  36. NZJester 36
    14 July 2015 at 4:40 pm

    I can’t believe he was stupid enough to believe the National party line that it was race based. Or was he just a right-wing stooge trying to undermine Labour from the inside as others have suggested and now showing his true yellow and blue colours? The Chinese just happen to be the biggest block from overseas who are currently investing in New Zealand houses because there are no restrictions on them doing so. This was the only way that an estimate could be produced on how much of the market is being driven by non resident buyers due to no register of non resident NZ house buyers being kept. It is not just the non resident Chinese nationals that we do not want buying up NZ properties upping the going price, but all non resident buyers regardless of race.
    If they came to live here and feed some of that money positively into our economy we would welcome them.
    National is just trying to sweep under the cover their inaction on preventing this bad property bubble that is well out of control and leaving a large number of houses vacant so they can be easily on-sold again for a profit causing rental prices to climb also.
    Maybe a lot of the people with no permanent roof over their head should be able to start squatting in any house left vacant for more than a year. They should however pay a fair pre property bubble rental price into a holding account for the owner and not be able to be kicked out as long as they treat the property with due care!

  37. G C 37
    14 July 2015 at 4:51 pm

    Bye Phil bye – nobody cares

  38. Robert 38
    14 July 2015 at 5:01 pm

    the Chinese wont give a flying fuck about any of it!
    they are more than likely Nat voters anyway, and key and Co will now increase more incentives for more too invest here and how more corrupt can you be than to just import more voters?
    ban all foreign land buying and shouldn’t be allowed to vote for atleast 5-8 yrs or receive any benefits. unless refugees imo

  39. SPC 39
    14 July 2015 at 5:04 pm

    It is said that by the right that the left uses the cry racism to shut down debate.

    But it is the right that uses the cry xenophobia when national/New Zealanders interest is raised. This is done for class reasons, only those who own property here gain by being able to on-sell it to foreigners (whose involvement bids up the value of local assets).

    Today given so much of the foreign capital available for investment is sourced in China, the natural interest of the property/land owning class is to cast national self interest as either racist, or as having consequences for trade with China – as if our trade deals future is predicated on their disposition towards us, rather then the terms of any treaty.

  40. les 40
    14 July 2015 at 5:52 pm

    such precious,indignation from some.If it looks like duck…..

  41. Heather Grimwood 41
    14 July 2015 at 6:18 pm

    Scanning the column bit late in the day, but get strong vibes that it is somewhat mischievous/troublemaking towards Labour, with some ( as did Phil Quin) not listening or reading carefully in first place and so not sufficiently objective.
    This only plays into the hands of the Nats ( especially Steven Joyce who seems to be tasked with this) who are whipping up a general hysteria on false facts.
    Remember also that many newly immigrated folk from whatever ethnicity will not have the language competency to differentiate between fact and the falsity
    which is being blown up and repeated with such enthusiasm presently.
    I grieve.

    • Sacha 41.1
      15 July 2015 at 12:30 am

      “not listening or reading carefully”

      The responsibility with any communication lies with the utterer, not the receiver.

  42. cogito 42
    14 July 2015 at 6:23 pm

    Rwanda?!

    This guy is off his rocker. Idiot.

  43. Vaughan Little 43
    14 July 2015 at 6:27 pm

    NZjester colonial viper is no stooge. he’s concluded that Labour is being racist because its put lots of effort into this whole china buyer thing without equally robustly addressing the other contributors to le bubble. he’s old school left who believes in structural reform and is pissed at labour for neglecting that side of things for the past million years.

    imo we should shut down foreign speculation and go after the banks. stop them lending money into existence.

    • Colonial Viper 43.1
      14 July 2015 at 7:08 pm

      If Labour had really really really wanted to play the race card there were a dozen ways that they could have wedged the issue smarter than they did.

      Instead they played dumb politics. That’s why I’ve been calling Labour “inept.” I reckon the people in the Labour Party hierarchy who planned and calculated this were all Pakeha with roughly zero idea of the subtleties involved in say Singaporean born Chinese who are Kiwi citizens vis a vis wealthy foreign mainland Chinese investors.

      Too bad the Labour caucus doesn’t even have a single Chinese or East Asian MP within it that they could have asked.

      In summary, Labour decided to make a big call out to Waitakere Man (and Woman) using some good old fashioned race tagged red meat.

      • te reo putake 43.1.1
        14 July 2015 at 7:24 pm

        Yeah, though none of what you say is true. Labour have not played the race card. There is no way to be honest about the information they had without identifying where the money is coming from. So they’re being damned by the right for not dog whistling, which is their preferred method, and damned by some on the left who are using faux outrage instead of their brains. It’s quite a bind.

        Still waiting for anybody to show that there is any racism and still waiting for alternative ways this info could have been used without it being trolled. Perhaps you could help me on the latter, CV? How could our party have done this. You reckon there’s many, many ways. Can you let us know what they are?

        • adam 43.1.1.1
          14 July 2015 at 7:48 pm

          I’m bewildered that you can’t see the race card has been play, te reo putake, – I really am.

          Maybe you could try looking at the way the issue has been framed through the sociological lens of reflexivity.

          I also agree with author in the link below, on how many on the left have been nation gazing, or nationalist in their approach to dealing with this capitalist globalisation process we are in. Rather than using our tradition strength, of being true internationalists.

          How many who comment on this web site say they talk with allies and political associates across the globe on a daily, or even weekly basis? Or, that they even care about the workers in far off lands?

          • te reo putake 43.1.1.1.1
            14 July 2015 at 8:00 pm

            Facts aren’t racist, adam. As I said in a post, it’s uncomfortable. But it remains a fact that Chinese non doms are screwing the Auckland house market. If Labour had done anything less than be upfront about the facts, that could well have been racist. That is, to hide the truth, but just hint about it would have been a dogwhistle.

            So Labour very deliberately did not play the race card, they went with being honest, but that isn’t going to stop the right (who are the experts at subtle bigotry) to say that they did. Happily, I think most Kiwis are just ignoring the bollocks and concentrating on the real issue. And that’s the damage being done to NZ by doing nothing about an identified problem.

            • marty mars 43.1.1.1.1.1
              14 July 2015 at 9:30 pm

              disingenuous – “So Labour very deliberately did not play the race card,” – bullshit – ffs that is bloody orwell territory

              • te reo putake …
                14 July 2015 at 9:50 pm

                Nope. It’s just the fact of the matter. They could have been devious, built it up over a few days, dropped hints, dogwhistled, teased it in blogs, primed loaded questions in parliament or any manner of shenanigans, but instead, they went with a open presentation of the facts. There really, really is no racism here. If there was, why hasn’t someone managed to explain how it’s racist? I’m guessing its because, um, it’s not.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  14 July 2015 at 10:05 pm

                  Once operators like Keith Ng, Tze Ming Mok, Kiwiese, myself, Raybon Kan, and others have declared Labour’s tactics as somewhat poorly, its as good as gospel. Let alone Judith Collin’s husband Mr Wong-Tung ffs.

                  • marty mars …
                    14 July 2015 at 10:13 pm

                    bite your tongue – this area is designated for creating new truths not the old outdated ones. Let those in the know tell you exactly what you should think impertinent fool.

                • marty mars …
                  14 July 2015 at 10:07 pm

                  I have explained it but you quibbled about a small detail and didn’t address the multitude of points I honestly raised. Sure I found that offensive but I got over it.

                  Playing the race card can be done in many ways – some overt, some covert – those distinctions are irrelevant to the playing of the card.

                  You are in denial imo

                  • vto …
                    14 July 2015 at 10:19 pm

                    I agree full denial

                    It even has the power inbalances going on as well

                    A Quite extraordinary display

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      14 July 2015 at 10:27 pm

                      Chinese who grew up in NZ like myself are quite familiar with little sleights and innuendo from even Primary school days. You’d never even bother making a fuss. Why bother after all. If it had been Winston doing his thing, we would all have yawned and just got on with our day as usual. What I believe has shocked a lot of Kiwi Chinese this time around was that the barbs came from a totally unexpected and random corner – Labour.

                  • te reo putake …
                    14 July 2015 at 10:21 pm

                    Look, I really appreciate the effort you put in, marty. You’re the only person I’ve seen even come close to establishing a case. But even then, you can’t quite make it stick, because, actually. it’s not racist. The fact is that non dom Chinese are distorting our market. It’s not racist to say that, because it is true.

                    • vto …
                      14 July 2015 at 10:27 pm

                      I would never get away with that explanation

                    • marty mars …
                      14 July 2015 at 10:30 pm

                      lol at least you didn’t say, “With all due respect…” thanks for that.

                    • te reo putake []
                      14 July 2015 at 10:38 pm

                      Ha! I’m not that patronising (am I?). I was saying on another forum that one of the most remarkable things about the last few days is how little moderation has been needed. This issue has been a shining example of how good most of TS’s commenters are. We’ve been able to argue, debate, disagree and chide each other without going over the top. It’s really cool.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      14 July 2015 at 10:31 pm

                      The fact is that non dom Chinese are distorting our market. It’s not racist to say that, because it is true.

                      Oh its not the statement which is racist. And yes, the statement is definitely true.

                      The bit which is racist is not the statement, but the omission: that non dom (and frankly, foreign dom) hot money from all over the world is distorting our market, not just from the PRC. Hundreds of mostly empty holiday homes in Wanaka and Queenstown, anyone? Bought up by millionaires from USA, Canada right through to UK and the rest of Europe. Distorting the market. Not mentioned.

                    • te reo putake []
                      14 July 2015 at 10:35 pm

                      Nah, that’s still not racism. If it’s a fact that the dominant group of speculators come from China, and it does seem to be the case, then saying so is not racist. The method for identifying that fact might be crude, to use Little’s phrase, but the result stands.

                    • marty mars …
                      14 July 2015 at 10:43 pm

                      @TRP

                      No you aren’t thank the goddess. And yes I think overall tone of this debate has been a good example of how good this site is.

                    • adam …
                      14 July 2015 at 10:49 pm

                      Your missing mine and other peoples’ point te reo putake – you can take you facts and figures as read. That is not the point ffs. How many times have people got to say this – that they way Tywford framed, then presented his argument was racist. The content is just the content. It’s how he chose to present the content which is the dam problem. And why myself, and others on the left are calling him a racist twit.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      14 July 2015 at 10:52 pm

                      adam – this is not really centred around Twyford, mores the worry. A whole team including the Leaders Office was involved in synthesizing and vetting the angle and the content that Twyford acted as front man for, on TV.

                    • te reo putake []
                      14 July 2015 at 11:07 pm

                      Quite probably right, CV. And boy, isn’t it a change to have the team working together and getting some traction. We haven’t seen this level of cooperation in years.

                    • adam …
                      14 July 2015 at 11:19 pm

                      Colonial Viper I think I just threw up in my mouth. I honestly thought he’d gone rouge in his framing and presentation. *sigh*

              • Thom Pietersen …
                14 July 2015 at 9:58 pm

                2 + 2 = 5 in new (lefty nutbar) speak – that’s Orwell territory ‘mind control’ marty mars. What could we use as the potential basis of facts? Nope? Oh yup, we’re at war with Eurasia or is that Eastasia. I’ll just wait for a spin of the moral compass.

          • Heather Grimwood 43.1.1.1.2
            14 July 2015 at 9:16 pm

            The race card is being played NOT by Labour, but by those making a big deal out of promoting their fabricated ‘scandal’ to safeguard big deals of their own.

            • Skinny 43.1.1.1.2.1
              14 July 2015 at 10:03 pm

              It is blowing up in the Nats face and Joyce knows they will have to do more than Zero Hours & Swamp Kauri smoke and mirrors charades.

              Well played Labour we all know scratch beneath the surface and the redneck back lash comes out in the hundreds of thousands.

              Central China deserve a serve for blatantly fueling land banking in foreign countries by its Nationals.

            • adam 43.1.1.1.2.2
              14 July 2015 at 10:29 pm

              Yes as a disabled person who can only work 1/2 days, can you please tell me where my big deal is. Because since the age of 16 I have never been able to work full time ( a short period in my early 20’s – but I drank to do that – which I thought was a bad idea – so I stopped) – I’ve been a renter my whole life, so I’ll wonder out loud – what is the big safeguard are you talking about.

              So Heather Grimwood before you go for the grand generalisation, maybe yo could ask if I have another agenda. And well yes I do. I dislike racism with a passion, I hate racists I think they are lowest sort of scum. Yeah, you heard me, with former national Leader Don Brash holding a very special place in Hell for his low scum ball nature.

              You know what, I really am getting sick of those on the left in this country, who seem to think it’s OK to make a villain out of anyone else on the left who is saying the dribble that came out of the Twit Tywfords mouth was racism. His framing and continuation of the same threads – even through his so called clarification were sickening.

              It was the worst type of racism – it was from someone who should be standing up against it – not promoting it. I’d rather have it come from a skinhead, then you know they are just another cracker. Mind you I suppose I should get some good cheese this week to go with all the new crackers I’ve discovered.

        • Colonial Viper 43.1.1.2
          14 July 2015 at 10:19 pm

          Perhaps you could help me on the latter, CV? How could our party have done this. You reckon there’s many, many ways. Can you let us know what they are?

          Sure mate. Given that the entire staff of the Leaders Office and a bunch of MPs involved in creating this strategy couldn’t figure it out, here is the basic plan:

          Firstly, stop Grant Robertson from hiding off in the shadows outside the fallout zone. He should have been out for the last week making a big noise about the dangers to NZ of China’s massively collapsing financial markets, drawing attention to fears in Canada, Australia, UK etc that Chinese money was going to flood into those markets.

          Secondly, find a few young Kiwi Chinese faces willing to come forward and say what a tough time they are having trying to find their first home in AKL. Do a few other similar things to wedge between Kiwi Chinese (as good) and foreign big money investors from Asia (as bad).

          Thirdly get Twyford to go on air with the name list, say that the list is merely indicative of a very large issue – foreigners buying up Kiwi land, making homes unaffordable; get a repeat from Grant Robertson on the dangers of hot money capital flows into a small market like NZ. Emphasise principles of economic sovereignty and Kiwi land for Kiwi citizens and permanent residents.

          Fourthly – follow up this week with some very gutsy and innovative policies to halt the sale of Kiwi land to foreigners, and to stop the flood of hot money flowing into NZ boosting up our property prices and our exchange rate. (Don’t just solely rely on old has-been policy from 2014!)

          I’ve even got a follow up strategy to link this all up to regional development and boosting manufacturing, etc. but that’s enough for now as
          Labour is clearly struggling to chew gum and walk at the same time.

          • te reo putake 43.1.1.2.1
            14 July 2015 at 10:29 pm

            Sweet! That’s good plan, actually, CV. Thanks for taking the time to lay it out. I’d leave Robertson out, myself. Much better to have one face fronting it, but I can see how he could add a layer to it. Re: the policy, that would be my one criticism of Labour so far. They should have been banging the ‘and Labour will do this about it’ drum right from the start. But the message is getting out that Labour, the Greens and NZF do have policy to knock this speculation on the head.

            Again, thanks. Nice work.

          • Karen 43.1.1.2.2
            15 July 2015 at 11:33 am

            Thanks CV. I copied this post and sent it to Phil Twyford and Andrew Little.

            I think I need to stop reading the Standard for a while because I am just getting too upset by the number of left wing people who don’t seem to get what was so wrong about the way Twyford handled this issue.

            • Jim Nald 43.1.1.2.2.1
              15 July 2015 at 11:43 am

              Hang in there, Karen. Thanks for your comments.

            • Heather Grimwood 43.1.1.2.2.2
              15 July 2015 at 12:10 pm

              To Karen….sure Phil Twyford should have in my opinion included all O/S non-resident buyers of NZ housing, but my contention is that participating in discussion just plays into Nats hands. I assure you I have always travelled left, considerably left …… often from rash activism, but sometimes a considered manner is wise.

  44. Colonial Viper 44
    14 July 2015 at 7:10 pm

    John Moore gets it:

    http://liberation.typepad.com/liberation/2015/07/john-moore-labours-asian-bashing-shows-a-party-devoid-of-ideas.html

    Labour – a party running on empty

    The Labour Party still adheres – officially at least – to a programme of social justice and equality. But the problem for Labour is that as a pro-capitalist party, it must accept the fundamental paradigm of economic liberalism and the structures of the modern global economy that define modern capitalism. Both Labour and National see the global capitalist system as a given, and so any New Zealand government is both constrained and defined by the realities of the shifting nature of this international system. Therefore for nominal left parties like Labour, a crisis of identity persists because today even minor leftwing reforms seem impossible.
    It shouldn’t be like this. After all, concerns around issues such as poverty and inequality have dominated people’s consciousness since the financial crisis. Yet throughout the Western world, traditional parties of the left like Labour have completely failed to benefit from this growing sense of unease over stagnating living standards for the majority, and disquiet at the lavish lifestyles of the West’s economic elite.

    Labour, as with other social democratic parties such as in Europe and Australia, no longer offer and promote bold reformist programmes to the electorate. Instead we see such parties playing around with any populist rhetoric that they hope can gain them traction. And so here in New Zealand we are now seeing the hollow shell of a party that is Labour, descending into the politics of racism in attempt to differentiate themselves from the more openly pro-globalization National Party. Equally, Labour is now trying to win over voters who currently support the outright anti-Asian and xenophobic New Zealand First Party. Cynical politics indeed.

    • Atiawa 44.1
      14 July 2015 at 9:41 pm

      What “bold reformist programmes” would capture the attention of the NZ electorate right now, enough to increase Labour from a 30% vote winning party to a 40 – 45% main coalition leading governing party?

      • Colonial Viper 44.1.1
        14 July 2015 at 9:54 pm

        There is none. This is because the NZ public has relatively recently figured out that (for the most part) Labour only proposes policies in order to win votes, and not because it truly believes in them and backs those policies to the hilt.

      • Reddelusion 44.1.2
        14 July 2015 at 10:01 pm

        Labour just giving up the ghost and collapsing into the national party 😀

        On a more serious note I just don’t think people are as unhappy as you think Prople don’t like change but steady as you go, barring a crisis. Labours issue is it is a looser brand, led by perceived looser, I don’t really think what ever they put up people would buy. the phone is off the hook

  45. geoff 45
    14 July 2015 at 7:30 pm

    Phil Quim quits……and nothing of value was lost

  46. keyman 46
    14 July 2015 at 8:05 pm

    never heard of him so wont miss him sounds like a twat

  47. Robert 47
    14 July 2015 at 8:57 pm

    what else can labour do? they state the obvious and get slammed by nats, who gives a shit! and the Chinese and others knew sooner or later it was bound to come up! wake the f up NZ. national are selling us down the river.
    stop voting for the Tory scum. their current leader isn’t even going to live here, similar to what’s been portrayed

    • Reddelusion 47.1
      14 July 2015 at 9:39 pm

      Here we go again, the whole country is been duped barring the likes of the enlightened Robert. As long as the left keeping thinking this way with their ugly language too boot and the attacking of their own who dare not prey at their alter of delusion or achieve their view of socialist purity they are truly rooted

      • Weepus beard 47.1.1
        14 July 2015 at 9:43 pm

        Jesus, what a mess that post is. Up your game, please!

      • te reo putake 47.1.2
        14 July 2015 at 10:06 pm

        Weirdly, the “whole country” seems to be able to identify the real issue, if the message boards and talkback are anything to go by. But disingenuous righties are going to carry on with the faux outrage, because that’s the only alternative they have to actually agreeing that something needs to be done about foreign exploitation of our housing market.

        • Weepus beard 47.1.2.1
          14 July 2015 at 10:23 pm

          Perusing other, more diverse message boards, it looks like even the right wing agree with everything Phil Twyford has put forward and also agree with his reasons for doing so.

          Only the greedy person with speculative property investment value to lose is against the end to which Twyford is pointing.

  48. Mike the Savage One 48
    14 July 2015 at 9:31 pm

    So TV3 news had this topic at the start of their nightly newscast, presented as if there is wider dissent within Labour, and members (in plural) appear to be defecting. But while that story went on, they only presented ONE member, who resigned, Mr Phil Quin.

    Where is the objectivity, I ask?

    There is obviously some discussion within Labour, about what Phil Twyford did, and what Andrew Little appears to support, while firmly denying that it has anything to do with xenophobia or even racism, but I cannot see mass defections.

    It seems the MSM are at it again, trying to present a “divided” opposition, within Labour. Maybe Phil Quin has friend within the MSM, giving him more attention than he may deserve.

    • Atiawa 48.1
      14 July 2015 at 9:50 pm

      Yep and sooooooooooo predictable.

    • Psycho Milt 48.2
      14 July 2015 at 9:51 pm

      You left out the bit where they screened video of Nazi concentration camps, with quotes from Quin getting all Godwin on Labour’s ass. If this guy was an “influential member,” thank Christ his “influence” ends here.

      • Mike the Savage One 48.2.1
        14 July 2015 at 10:02 pm

        Yes, thanks for reminding me, that sent a chill down my back, mischievous, absolutely mischievous, but not surprising.

      • Weepus beard 48.2.2
        14 July 2015 at 10:25 pm

        Really? TV3? That’s sick.

    • Reddelusion 48.3
      14 July 2015 at 9:52 pm

      Racial stereotyping is racism no matter what Little thinks, it is what other people think that’s the issue here. It stirs the pot of those who are racist and further cements and or justifies their views, similarly it is what such statement mean to every day Chinese who are stigmatised that matters, not what the two immigrant twitford and Little think . Labour where well aware of what they where doing here. This makes it even more deplorable, they can’t hide behind a lack of statistics. they new very well what the secondary effects of this stunt would be but decided to go ahead any way for political gain, bugger collateral damage to a minority group

      • McFlock 48.3.1
        14 July 2015 at 10:04 pm

        Racial stereotyping is actually the opposite of what Labour have done here.

        They have the assumption that all NZ resident self-reported ethnicities have roughly the same house purchase rate, and that the observed discrepancy is therefore probably due to overseas speculation.

        • Thom Pietersen 48.3.1.1
          14 July 2015 at 10:33 pm

          Mmmmm if not, why not? Why would it seem other NZ ethnic groups are performing so badly? I wonder whether we should undertake some racial profiling? Poor education, lack of dosh? We should look at a way to target assistance.

          • McFlock 48.3.1.1.1
            14 July 2015 at 10:43 pm

            Well, the first step would be to actually establish that there is a disparity in purchase rates for the resident population, and the level of activity of overseas investors.

            I’m a firm believer in not doing too much work before (or even after) a situation has been assessed.

      • te reo putake 48.3.2
        14 July 2015 at 10:09 pm

        And yet there was no racial stereotyping. Mind you, I’m guessing you don’t actually know what it is, do you?

  49. Blue 49
    14 July 2015 at 9:59 pm

    Good riddance to Quin – that’s probably the only bright spot to come out of this fiasco.

    Labour finally did something that captured the public’s interest and landed a solid blow on the National Party. They have nothing to defend themselves with, having denied there is a problem with foreign ownership, refused to measure it and blatantly lied about the scale of it.

    The only thing they and their supporters can do is cry ‘racism!’ (piously pretending that they are usually paragons of equality, justice and human rights themselves) and then watch as the left fall all over ourselves to back off, apologise and crawl back into our hole, which is exactly where they want us.

    China is currently in a unique position, with many people desperately trying to get large sums of money out and invested into property overseas. This is a widely acknowledged phenomenon across Australia, Canada, the UK and the USA. It’s only NZ who can’t seem to have a grown-up conversation about it.

    Meanwhile, National sit back, relax and rub their hands together as they and their voters profit from ever-increasing prices, the left dissolve into a muddle of headless chooks scratching at each other and the Kiwi dream of home ownership dies a little more every day.

    • Reddelusion 49.1
      14 July 2015 at 10:04 pm

      Still racial stereotyping blue, no matter how you want to sugar coat it.

      • Paul 49.1.1
        15 July 2015 at 7:15 am

        “The only thing they and their supporters can do is cry ‘racism!’ (piously pretending that they are usually paragons of equality, justice and human rights themselves) “

    • Clemgeopin 49.2
      15 July 2015 at 12:23 am

      +1

      Well said!

    • whateva next? 49.3
      15 July 2015 at 6:55 pm

      “Meanwhile, National sit back, relax and rub their hands together as they and their voters profit from ever-increasing prices, …”
      Exactly Blue, it’s a gravy train, and we are expected to smile and wave as it chugs past, which is what “the vast majority of nu zillanders” are doing right now by shooting the messenger.

  50. Reddelusion 50
    14 July 2015 at 10:02 pm

    For a guy that no one knows or cares about phil Quinn certainly generated a lot of traffic and got you lot exercised

    • te reo putake 50.1
      14 July 2015 at 10:16 pm

      Not really. For a starter, he really is a norman no mates. So influential, nobody is sure how his surname is spelt. (cf your own comment). Most of the comments here aren’t about him, but his pointless resignation does give us a chance to talk about the wider issue.

  51. Clemgeopin 51
    14 July 2015 at 10:18 pm

    Phil Quin and all the rest that have stupidly and unfairly framed this issue as a racist one instead of looking at it as an honest take on the serious contemporary housing crises where house prices are massively sky rocketing making it pretty hard for ordinary residents, including the local Chinese residents, to own a home, should read this email from Mr Phil Twyford that I just received:

    ” Dear Clem,

    Since Saturday, I’ve received many messages about the release of data that suggests foreign speculators are dramatically driving up the cost of housing in Auckland.

    As you will be aware, there’s been a lot of commentary and debate on this issue. The majority of feedback has been in support – but there have also been accusations of racism because the data indicated that lots of offshore investment was coming from one particular country.

    This is not about that. It’s about facing up to the effect foreign property speculation is having on the residential property market and having an open and honest debate about the housing crisis and how we fix it. Overseas buyers are making it harder for all New Zealanders to get on the property ladder, and that includes Chinese New Zealanders.

    It’s been Labour policy since 2013 to ban overseas, non-resident speculators from buying housing in New Zealand. If people want to immigrate to New Zealand, from whatever country, we’ll welcome them with open arms as new New Zealanders. If offshore investors want to build new houses, we’ll welcome that too, as that adds to New Zealand’s housing stock. But if they are speculating on New Zealand homes, at the expense of resident New Zealanders – whatever their ethnicity – we think that’s wrong.

    The ban on overseas speculators is just one example of our toolbox of policies to cool the Auckland housing market. We’ll also:

    Build 100,000 new homes over 10 years
    Refresh our state housing stock
    Ensure that all houses are warm and dry with a Healthy Homes Guarantee that assists with heating, as well as insulation
    Encourage investment in productive industries rather than speculation in the housing market

    Recently introduced government measures do little to fix either the supply or demand problem that is driving up prices.

    Unlike National, Labour takes the housing crisis seriously. We understand how important it is to our families, our communities, and to our economy, that all Kiwis have a decent chance of owning their own home.

    If you’d like to share your thoughts with me, feel free to reply to this email.

    Regards,

    Phil Twyford
    Labour’s Housing Spokesperson

    P.S. Click here if you’d like to read the original story in the NZ Herald
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11478719
    or
    click here for more information on the data.
    http://publicaddress.net/speaker/house-buying-patterns-in-auckland/ “

    • Chooky 51.1
      14 July 2015 at 10:47 pm

      +100 Clemgeopin…my estimation of the Labour Party has gone up….at last they are confronting the facts head on….maybe I will renew my Labour Party membership afterall

      ….and after Metiria Turei’s outburst not join up with the Greens afterall, despite the encouragement of some Green friends…seems like Turei bought into Nacts racist framing

      • Colonial Viper 51.1.1
        14 July 2015 at 10:57 pm

        Well the facts are that the Auckland housing bubble has been inflating since 2001/2002 and to point the finger at the Chinese at this late stage is pretty damn disingenuous. Should foreigners be permitted to buy NZ land, of course not. But Labour should be presenting the real problem, not just one selective part of it.

        • Chooky 51.1.1.1
          15 July 2015 at 9:13 am

          “Labour should be presenting the real problem, not just one selective part of it”

          …more anecdotal evidence from a horses mouth Real Estate agent… this time in Christchurch:

          …two Hong Kong families each bought up 40 houses…this equals 80 houses…this same Real Estate agent says virtually all of Riccarton is now owned by Chinese

          ….”disingenuous”?…”racist”? …

          (well if that is how you use the Nact framing terms ….maybe huge amounts of precious Maori taonga swamp kauri going off to China is also “disingenuous ” and “racist”? …of course it is New Zealand’s fault for not having the safeguards and regulations in place to not be ripped off! …NZ should have better rules in place…and while we are at it …maybe the words “China” and “Chinese” should not be used at all in a pejorative sense?…I expect this would be the line of the Chinese government and Chinese Party )

          Despite the Greens naive , inept accusation of “crude racial profiling” leveled at the Labour Party ( hence torpedoing their main coalition partner and future hope of being in government) Labour is presenting a real problem!…and not in a racist way…a factual way

  52. Sable 52
    14 July 2015 at 10:33 pm

    Labour and National are slowly destroying this country. Every day they sell us out to foreign governments, corporations and businesses. Rather than having the guts to tell the US govt and its parasite corporations to fuck off, rather than outright banning foreign ownership of property, rather than making foreign companies doing business here pay their share of taxes they bend over backwards to betray us all at every turn.

    Worse still morons still doggedly vote for and support the very people who are oppressing them. Simply amazing…..

  53. Weepus beard 53
    14 July 2015 at 10:37 pm

    Hey CV. Stick to the topic please. This is Auckland housing we are talking about, not Wanaka and Queenstown.

    You might get banned for diversion…

  54. millsy 54
    14 July 2015 at 10:59 pm

    I wonder if Austrians, Czechs, Russians, in the late 30’s and early 40’s got accused of racism for expressing concerns about Germany?

    • cogito 54.1
      14 July 2015 at 11:28 pm

      What is pretty evident is that China is engaging in its own particular version of “lebensraum”, and that little ol’ Niu Zilan is being gradually swallowed up.

  55. Melanie Scott 55
    14 July 2015 at 11:33 pm

    I have just read the whole list of posts here. By far the sanest, and best and most lucid, is the last one, by Blue. Sadly I agree with every word.
    Tomorrow is another day and perhaps we can all start again.

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