Pita falls for the lines – but not for long

Written By: - Date published: 1:09 pm, October 16th, 2008 - 97 comments
Categories: john key, maori party, slippery, youtube - Tags:

I have some sympathy for Dr PIta Sharples over the fallout of Mr Key’s promises. He’s clearly been left high and dry by Mr Key, his would-be coalition partner. According to the Maori Party’s chief of staff we now find:

…that Mr Key was clear in the meeting that National’s position could be put on the backburner. Mr Walker and National’s deputy leader Bill English were both present in the meeting

If you missed it when the issue was raised on the leaders debate here’s the footage:

Mr Key has denied it before, after Dr Sharples first made the claim in a Sky TV leaders’ interview 11 days ago. No wonder Mr English has gone to ground! His boss’s predilection for telling people what they want to hear is becoming something of an ongoing issue (is that what English meant when he talked of Mr Key bouncing from cloud to cloud?)

Now I’ve just caught up with Mr Key on Sunrise – still not saying why he thinks Pita Sharples is wrong:

Oliver Driver: But I’m not, I’m not actually asking you if there was a formal agreement with, ah, with Mr Sharples, I asked Mr Sharples if he was wrong during an Alt TV minor leaders’ debate last night, and he once again said that, ah, you did make that assurance privately. Why, why [sic] would he be lying about this.

John Key: Yeah well I think it’s interpretation of where you’re at, I, there’s no formal agreement, so I don’t know how that would work, if you going to say the 2008 to 2011 period, ah, the Maori seats won’t be abolished under National in that period of time. Now yes, if we have a deal with the Maori Party after the election, we’re going to go in there in good faith, we’ll negotiate across a range of issues….

So if you’ve had a conversation but not formally signed something you can’t count on him not to change his mind?

[Update: Sharples on Maori TV explains what Key promised him]

97 comments on “Pita falls for the lines – but not for long ”

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  1. insider 1
    16 October 2008 at 1:27 pm

    Any bets on how many posts Steve is going to flog this for? I’m picking six.

  2. John Stevens 2
    16 October 2008 at 1:52 pm

    I go for 7 but it will stop when my cousin releases his latest TGIF edition tomorrow, what a beauty of a story this is. Spin city will be out of control

  3. vidiot 3
    16 October 2008 at 1:52 pm

    Any bets on how many posts Steve is going to flog this for? I’m picking six.

    Put me down for $1 each way on 7 (same number of race based seats)

  4. leftrightout 4
    16 October 2008 at 1:52 pm

    insider, how about discussing the issue?

  5. Tane 5
    16 October 2008 at 1:54 pm

    Steve didn’t write this post. Seriously bro, you need to start reading the posts more closely. You’re making a fool of yourself.

  6. Rakaia George 6
    16 October 2008 at 1:56 pm

    The issue: John Key hasn’t promised categorically to drop the policy, has Pita promised categorically to go into coalition with National? No.

    Technically this is what we call an ongoing negotiation.

  7. milo 7
    16 October 2008 at 1:56 pm

    Dr Sharples said on Alt TV that straight after Mr Key had agreed with him over the seats issue Mr English changed the subject. “The way it all started was that I was explaining what would be our bottom line, that the seats cannot go unless Maori say so, and I kept saying that, and in the end he sort of agreed and agreed and agreed, so maybe in his own head he thought he hadn’t agreed, but he had.”

    The implication of this is that John Key can legitimately think that he hadn’t agreed. And that is Pita Sharple’s view.

    But who knows really – I’ve read about 4 different versions of what John Key is supposed to have said.

  8. Steve Pierson 8
    16 October 2008 at 1:58 pm

    insider. I didn’t write this post

    On any issue, I’ll write as many posts as I choose or as many as I can until the other Standardistas stop me, whichever comes first.

    If you don’t like it, it’s a free interweb, go somewhere else. Maybe to Kiwiblog, where you can read hundreds of posts on Peters.

  9. Steve Pierson 9
    16 October 2008 at 1:59 pm

    milo. That’s because Key ahs said at least four different things.

  10. milo 10
    16 October 2008 at 1:59 pm

    Addendum: first paragraph quoted from Stuff.

  11. milo 11
    16 October 2008 at 2:00 pm

    Steve – no, that’s about four different versions from the Maori party. There are even multiple contradictory versions in the Stuff article I quoted from.

  12. Tane 12
    16 October 2008 at 2:03 pm

    leftrightout – it’s standard rightwing troll behaviour. When there’s a story that harms their party of choice they come on here and complain “why are you still flogging this? how many stories have you done? shouldn’t you write about something else?” etc. They never do this when Farrar writes post #4376 on Winston Peters.

  13. relic 13
    16 October 2008 at 2:08 pm

    If the nats gain office there will be no (as in none) room for interpretation when they do their upward wealth distribution thing and maybe come after some of you smart alec posters wages and lifestyles to boot. The current fudge factor will only last until Nov.8 and a few backroom sessions after that date. Then it will be “taking care of business’.

    Maori seats? get outta here!

    The Standard is most valuable in tracking the evidence. It will be interesting to revisit the archive when the dust has settled.

  14. insider 14
    16 October 2008 at 2:21 pm

    Tane/Steve

    mea culpa on the error – but let’s not take my comment too seriously in the first place guys. Retain some perspective.

    LRO

    I have discussed the issue on the two or three posts already done on this subject.

  15. Tane 15
    16 October 2008 at 2:22 pm

    insider. It’s just when it happens all the bloody time it gets incredibly frustrating. It throws the entire thread, and it’s simply because some rightie gets so excited he forgets to read the post properly.

  16. milo 16
    16 October 2008 at 2:23 pm

    Further to Tane’s comment. I do think this is a legitimate topic for discussion, and fair enough to have a go a John Key for it.

    My view is that John Key has been consistent in indicating it would be a topic for discussion in negotiations, but that there is isn’t a formal agreement. Here’s the acid question in support of my point:

    If there is a formal agreement, what has the Maori party agreed to give up in return?

  17. Ianmac 17
    16 October 2008 at 2:23 pm

    I heard Peta first on the Bill Ralston (National) TV Leaders Interview. He was very clear given the questioning by the Journalists present. His story following has been totally consistent. Since then John typically has given 4 conflicting answers to a simple question. (See also Springboks)
    Rice: PM Key. Will you join us in USA in attacking Iran?
    PM Key: Well er Condolisa um it depends on what I think I said, um I didn’t really have an.. until I check but I think on balance that we would help out in um some way….
    Rice: Can I take from that you will supply some troops in support?
    PM Key: Well umm. I didn’t say that I um would… I said that perhaps I wouldn’t ummm
    Rice: Can I take it that you are not going to supply troops Mr Key?
    PM Key: Well um No er Yes but it depends on what you mean by Iran so um??

  18. Robinsod 18
    16 October 2008 at 2:33 pm

    Ianmac – you forgot “ummmm… are we talking about Australian Iran?”

  19. forgetaboutthelastone 19
    16 October 2008 at 2:36 pm

    Ianmac – if he gets to be PM he will have english answer all his questions. only reason he answers any is that he needs to show leadership before the election.

    only question JK cares about: “how awesome am i?”

  20. Ianmac 20
    16 October 2008 at 2:38 pm

    Interesting update from No right Turn 3rd item down:
    http://norightturn.blogspot.com/

  21. Pat 21
    16 October 2008 at 2:46 pm

    No-one questions Sharples honesty (which makes him stand alone among the 120 MPs) and Key could have handled it much better. But this is hardly a deal-breaker. This sort of stuff gets sorted out over a “I’m sorry for the misunderstanding”, a handshake, and a beer.

    If you want to see a destroyed relationship, look no further than Tariana Turia and Helen Clark.

  22. forgetaboutthelastone 22
    16 October 2008 at 2:54 pm

    so helen should be able to open the next debate with something like “here’s the guy who is prepared to lie to 1 million NZers to get what he wants… why would you believe anything else he’s got to say… this ones about trust.”

  23. randal 23
    16 October 2008 at 3:47 pm

    keys seems to have a remarkable ability to string a whole lot of words together that dont mean anything. thats a handy attrribute to have if you dont want to commit yourself…sounds a bit like the contracts bankers trust wrote that couldnt be understood by anyone but them. he was working for them at the time too.

  24. bobo 24
    16 October 2008 at 3:54 pm

    ‘Razor gang’ will find bureaucracy savings – Key

    hmm wonder if this was such a great slogan to bring back.. Crosby|Textor must be giving some real bad advice maybe the leak is working for them now..

  25. higherstandard 25
    16 October 2008 at 3:59 pm

    “keys seems to have a remarkable ability to string a whole lot of words together that dont mean anything.”

    Randal are you John Key ?

  26. bomber 26
    16 October 2008 at 3:59 pm

    Key says one thing in public, another thing in private

    Two weeks ago I interviewed Dr Pita Sharples on Let’s be Frank for ALT TV the day John Key launched his abolition of the Maori Seats policy. I put to Dr Sharples that the policy announcement was an ambush, I asked if they had talked before Key announced it and Dr Sharples stated that he had talked to Key and was assured by him that he would not abolish the Maori seats, that effectively he was being told by Key one thing in private and Key was saying something else in public. The NBR was the only newspaper that picked up on this until Shane Taurima put the allegation directly to John Key during the TVNZ debate on Tuesday night. John Key responded that Dr Sharples had it wrong. Disgusted by the mainstream media smothering the election debate process, Alt Tv hosted it’s own ‘Minor Party Right of Reply’ debate last night and Oliver put to Dr Pita Sharples the claim by John Key that he was wrong about any assurance not to abolish the Maori seats and Dr. Pita Sharples adamantly responded that wasn’t true and that John Key was wrong. Since then a staffer present at the meeting has now come out backing Sharples’ version of events.

    John Key is telling the Maori Party one thing in private and his more reactionary electorate another thing in public. This is an election about ‘trust’ – John Key can’t be trusted on meeting Lord Ashcroft, he can’t be trusted on the amount of Tranz Rail shares and now we can’t trust what he’s saying regarding the political voice of Maoridom.

    Chur
    Bomber
    http://www.tumeke.blogspot.com
    http://www.alttv.co.nz

  27. Tony Norriss 27
    16 October 2008 at 4:23 pm

    For people who should know better, you are being very disingenuous.

    It is very possible for one person to say something to another, and for them both to get completely different meanings. It happens all the time. That is why there is so many he said-she said disputes.

    I believe that it is very possible that both Sharples and Key honestly believe they are right.

    Communication 101

    Sender:- transmits the information understanding it through the filters of their culture, education etc.
    Information:- What is actually said.
    Receiver:- interprets the information through the filters of their culture, education etc.

    In this case, Key may well have said something like: “this is an area we have some flexibility on” or “this is not a firm bottom line for us” not intending in anyway to make a firm committment. In Sharple’s experience, phrases like these may actually be tountament to a firm committment, so he may have received the information as if Key had given him a firm assurance.

    Unless someone can produce a tape of the conversation there is no way you can say that either party is lying.

  28. gobsmacked 28
    16 October 2008 at 4:32 pm

    But we can produce a tape of Key denying it. It’s called the TV news.

    He’s as convincing as ever.

  29. Tony Norriss 29
    16 October 2008 at 4:38 pm

    But not a tape of the actual conversation. Without that you are engaging in absolute speculation, as I have pointed out above.

  30. ak 30
    16 October 2008 at 4:39 pm

    You da bomb, Bomber. Scariest thing about this lie (and the Ashcroft, TransRail, CT etc ones) is the screaming silence from the privately-owned media.

    Contrast the coverage of these lies from a mealy-mouthed would-be leader, with the mass orgy of hyperbole and faux teeth-gnashing over wee Winnie’s alleged fibs about something as opaque and relatively inconsequential as funding of a minor party.

    The issue of leading politicians saying one thing in public and another in private goes to the very heart of our system and morality: English’s “apology” for the expose of his Kiwibank admission was swallowed with disgusting ease by our fawning scribblers – and in this case another expose is compounded by a blatant lie – yet still the little newspaper-reader waits….

    Keep it up you blogger blokes: trust in the old media dwindles daily, like their circulations. Crank up those Key-lied-a-scopes and shine a light on the shady Barons and their hacks.

  31. gobsmacked 31
    16 October 2008 at 4:57 pm

    So to sum up:

    1) There is no tape. Therefore there is no lie.

    2) There is a tape. Therefore lying scumbags have been secretly recording, how dare they, dirty tricks, etc, etc.

    Glad we’ve cleared that up.

    Hey, if people want to believe John Key, I’m not stopping them. But most of us know a bullshitter when we see one. As I said, watch him being asked about it on the news tonight.

    I almost want him to become PM. It’ll be great car crash telly.

  32. nommopilot 32
    16 October 2008 at 5:00 pm

    “It is very possible for one person to say something to another, and for them both to get completely different meanings.”

    Treaty of Waitangi anone?

    “In Sharple’s experience, phrases like these may actually be tountament to a firm committment” or in Key’s experience and culture of merchant banking saying something may not be “tountament [sic]” to actually meaning it.

    we can only speculate, which is unfortunate because the actuality of the situation seriously affects the credibility of one candidate or the other.

  33. nommopilot 33
    16 October 2008 at 5:02 pm

    “It’ll be great car crash telly.”

    except we’re all in the car…

  34. jo zinny 34
    16 October 2008 at 5:03 pm

    “John Key is telling the Maori Party one thing in private and his more reactionary electorate another thing in public”

    to bomber and others..

    Go read his peer-group for why. And how. And a whole lot of other things..!

    BTW – surely I am not alone in noting how any topic seems to attract opposed views to start with.. A pattern emerging..? Like the phone polls to TV appearances. Yes, I’d understand, they’d want their guy to be great even if if he was a cheese grater.. but saying so.. forthright;y would help.. instead of hindering and thus larding the laddie’s slippery impression..

  35. Ianmac 35
    16 October 2008 at 7:14 pm

    jo zinny. Yes I have noticed that eg Colin Espiners Blog. The nasty stufff is given by the same few but to my eye, there isn’t any substance to them. Some left and right and middle people do raise interesting ideas even though I am not really clever enough to understand some. (Craig’s suggestion on better moderation and the off-switch for microphones for the next Leaders Debate seems like a good idea.) Its a wonder that some of the outright slurs on some sites are allowed. Moderating here seems to help.

    [lprent: Yes but it is a delicate balance here between too little and the places drops into the sewer, and too much giving a sycophantic chorus. So we concentrate mostly on the types of behavior that stifle debate/discussion and outright argument. That really comes down to actively engaging and being prepared to defend and argue your points. You may not come away agreeing, but you at least get the other points of view.]

  36. tony norriss 36
    16 October 2008 at 7:47 pm

    Gobsmacked said: “Hey, if people want to believe John Key, I’m not stopping them. But most of us know a bullshitter when we see one. As I said, watch him being asked about it on the news tonight.”

    Well, I guess you should be following the example of our great leader who keeps on believing Winston’s word despite overwhelming evidence that he has been telling porkies. On that comparative basis you should be proclaiming Key as a paragon of truthfulness. Afterall, I am sure that no-one on the Labour side of the camp would even consider applying double standards, would they???

  37. milo 37
    16 October 2008 at 7:56 pm

    So, if there is a formal agreement, what concessions did the Maori Party make in return?

  38. Policy Parrot 38
    16 October 2008 at 7:59 pm

    “John Key is telling the Maori Party one thing in private and his more reactionary electorate another thing in public’

    This sums Key up to a T. It was about 10 months ago when he similarly announced on the quiet to a small audience that he would “like to see wages drop”, and then went and denied it to the nation. It presents two issues:

    1. Is Key (and the rest of the National caucus for that matter) in the habit of either lying to small groups, or the nation at large?
    2. Why should he(they) expect our votes if he(they) can’t give us a straight answer?

    This is the issue. Not the manner in which it reached the media.

  39. gobsmacked 39
    16 October 2008 at 8:09 pm

    Herald, ODT, etc:

    “National Party leader John Key is in the middle of another controversy after admitting today he told the Maori Party he was prepared to drop a policy to abolish the Maori seats in Parliament.”

    Oops.

  40. tony norriss 40
    16 October 2008 at 8:23 pm

    Gobsmacked “National Party leader John Key is in the middle of another controversy after admitting today he told the Maori Party he was prepared to drop a policy to abolish the Maori seats in Parliament”

    Well, the quote from him in the Herald actually said nothing of the sort. He said he had informed them that abolishing the Maori Seats wasn’t a bottom line. All that is saying is that it is a negotiable point for him. Nothing more.

    Talk about a beat-up.

  41. milo 41
    16 October 2008 at 8:44 pm

    Actually, what the Herald is reporting is pretty much exactly what he said during the leaders debate (as shown on The Standard clip).

    So will those on The Standard who trumpeted that he was lying now apologize?

  42. randal 42
    16 October 2008 at 9:03 pm

    I dont believe the herald. I dont believe john keys and I dont believe you! Howzat.

  43. Pascal's bookie 43
    16 October 2008 at 9:22 pm

    nah Tony. ‘Not a bottom line’ means ‘prepared to drop it’.

    So in the context of talks with the mP about what a hypothetical deal might look like, when one side says this is a bottom line, and the other side says we’re ok with that, then there is an agreement about that hypothetical deal.

    All this is about is Key selling the Orewa1 people down the river. (good job too IMV) The National party’s policy on the Maori seats is purely about getting those folks votes. National doesn’t give a stuff about abolishing them in reality and that’s why it’s not a bottom line.

    They wouldn’t mind abolishing them, because the overhang causes them problems, but if they can can cut a deal with the mP that ceases to be a problem.

    Everyone knows this, but Key has just been scrambling to try and keep up appearances for the ‘grievance industry’ brigade.

    Well played Pita I reckon. The Nat’s tried to pull a ‘Nice seats you’ve got there, shame if anything should happen to them’ scenario, and the mP has called their bluff. It’s now out in the open that the National party don’t think the seats are that bad and would be prepared to entrench them.

    If they try and abolish them if they can’t get a deal with the mP they’ll look like they’re doing it out of spite. har har.

  44. rave 44
    16 October 2008 at 9:22 pm

    John Key and Pita Sharples deserve each other. Except no.
    Key is like a white settler with a bunch of beads, Pita is like a bemused rangatira trading his people.
    Louisa Wall put it well on Maori TV when she called the Maori Party ‘traders’ for dealing with National against the big majority of Maori Party supporters.
    One of the hosts heard “traders” as “traitors”.
    I wonder why Pita thought Key agreed that “Maori would decide”?
    Where have I heard the word ‘trader’ before?

  45. TBA 45
    16 October 2008 at 9:45 pm

    Lets be honest is anybody who regularly reads the standard surprised by their stance on this issue? The National party could cure cancer, aids, poverty and eliminate global warming tomorrow and we would still expect a headline on Saturday reading “National fails to act against Childhood Obesity”.

    The thing that does surprise me is the number of political parties (other than the Maori party) which actually position themselves as supporting a special group of seats being reserved for one ethnic group. If it happen in any other country most of these politicians would rightly condemn it as a racist and discriminatory act. However unlike citizens of another country Maori have the ability to vote for these politicians so instead we are forced to witness the so called leaders of NZ force these policies onto us.

  46. rave 46
    16 October 2008 at 10:09 pm

    TBA has the National Party stopped Childhood Obesity? To be announced I suppose.
    Do you know anything about the TOW? Or is that another country?

  47. george 47
    16 October 2008 at 10:09 pm

    Wages(lower)
    Ashcroft.
    Springbok tour.
    Trans shares.
    Pita.
    All these are examples of a person caught out lying.
    Not once but multiple times.
    Wake up and smell the roses.
    geo

  48. r0b 48
    16 October 2008 at 10:13 pm

    The National party could cure cancer, aids, poverty and eliminate global warming tomorrow and we would still expect a headline on Saturday reading “National fails to act against Childhood Obesity’.

    You mean like the way the Labour Party slashed unemployment, raised minimum wages, reduced debt and strengthened the economy over 9 years, and we still get headlines in The Herald “Labour’s fake Kiwi family is a fake Aussie family too”? And let’s not even start on the RWNJ blogs.

  49. milo 49
    16 October 2008 at 10:17 pm

    randal: Admirable consistency. Onya!

  50. Stack 50
    16 October 2008 at 10:27 pm

    Better late than never!

    For any other latecomers – just want to direct your attention to the comment of the day, by Ak at 4.39pm. A brilliant summing up of the effect of our carefully in-effectual privately-owned msm on their bemused readers in the lead-up to this election.
    As Ak says: “Crank up those Key-lied-a-scopes and shine a light on the shady Barons and their hacks.”

    Brilliant!

  51. Jordan Carter 51
    16 October 2008 at 10:47 pm

    Hmmm. This is fairly typical but it does add yet another piece in the repetoire of spincity stories by John. I do/do not know what I said/didn’t say about the Tour, the Maori Seats, the TranzRail shares, yada yada yada.

    The man appears to have an honesty and integrity bypass.

  52. milo 52
    16 October 2008 at 10:51 pm

    Gee Jordan, I guess it’s “lost in the mists of time” then? To quote your Dear Leader.

  53. burt 53
    16 October 2008 at 11:28 pm

    milo

    Not much is going Labours way in the last few days. The supporters are grumpy. Jordan’s blog has lost a pile of comments and things are looking up with new welfare incentives out today. I love election years, all parties suddenly do all the things that you never knew they were planning to do. Gotta love watching them bribe us with our own money.

    Jordan is up against Sir Roger Douglas in his electorate, of course he’s feeling scratchy.

  54. Paul 54
    16 October 2008 at 11:33 pm

    Hey so what’s all this Ian Wishart shite that has got Kiwiblog with a juvenile stiffie?

    “implicating two current cabinet ministers and a former Labour cabinet minister, in an unprecedented political scandal.”

    If there isn’t a massive bloody dong, copious amounts of lube and alcohol and more than one consenting adult in a bed, I’m going to be mighty pissed off.

  55. Paul 55
    16 October 2008 at 11:35 pm

    “Not much is going Labours way in the last few days”

    Make me laugh.

    Sstrike 1, scrap R&D – piss of Business NZ and the Manufacturers and Exporters Association.
    strike 2, 40% legislation – piss off all bar one genuine economic commentator & forecaster (and only natural coalition partner ATC)
    strike 3, lied to either Pita Sharples or the Public – piss wither all Maoridom off or everyone else off.

    How many strikes was it under National’s crime policy. I think Key doesn’t qualify for parole under his own policy.

  56. Paul Robeson 56
    16 October 2008 at 11:58 pm

    So we have got a real Indy media making a contribution to the discussion even in this land of Australian media conglomerates, sad internet comments threads *cough*, and plodding tv networks.

    Hope springs eternal even in this jaded world!

    Great work Bomber. I hope it makes a significant difference.

    So what exactly is Key saying to his right wing voters?

    Vote for me I’m a racist, I’ll shaft Maori when it is strategically prudent to do so. Does that about sum it up?

  57. milo 57
    17 October 2008 at 12:01 am

    What amuses me is to see the two Pauls breathlessly accusing John Key of lying … and using a bunch of their own lies to do so. And they don’t even seem to see the irony.

    If you want to hold John Key to a standard, hold yourself to it first. Or do ya need some fact checkin’?

  58. Chris S 58
    17 October 2008 at 12:13 am

    Burt, a probable outcome for Hunua: Douglas splits the right-bloc vote between Hutchison and his self, causing newbie JTC to sail in on a minority.

    Paul: not sure what’s got them all riled up, and knowing Wishart it won’t be much. But whatever the story is, be prepared for a lot of noise…

    I forsee another billion posts from Farrar, such that we haven’t seen since his man-crush on Winston. No matter the size or scale of the issue the right will milk it for all it’s worth.

    I just hope those bastards in the house haven’t been playing silly buggers, as they’re known to do, and this ends up being a fart more than a storm.

  59. Paul 59
    17 October 2008 at 12:17 am

    Milo pop quiz, do you fell luck punk, well do ya.

    which of these isn’t true

    He pissed off

    a)Business NZ and the Manufacturers and Exporters Association.
    b)piss off all bar one genuine economic commentator & forecaster (and only natural coalition partner ATC)
    c)lied to either Pita Sharples or the Public

    Come on sunshine, there’s a bus with a Key on it about to explode and you have to keep it above 5 lies a day or it will blow.

    Which of my claims are wrong and I’ll point you to the exact article from where they came.

    But wait over yonder window, there’s a night in shining armour and he’s a christian evangelist about to blow the lid on the election.

    Who said politics was boring.

  60. Paul Robeson 60
    17 October 2008 at 12:38 am

    Mr Robeson to you, Mi son.

    It wasn’t the breathlessness of a cheap orgasm I’ll have you know, but enthusiastic romanticism at the thought of some independent and questioning journalism (outside the partisan blogosphere) having an impact on this election.

    On the other hand it is possible you didn’t actually bother to read my post.

    The second is a question to a right winger Key supporter. How do they view what Key is saying? What is his message to them there?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz-election-2008/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501799&objectid=10537868

    Is it a little bit like calling Labour a ‘nanny state’ party, while in the same sentence advocating his party use the superfund to pick winners in the New Zealand stockmarket?

  61. T-Rex 61
    17 October 2008 at 12:56 am

    “A CNN poll of people watching Wednesday’s debate said Mr Obama won by 58% to 31%, while a CBS survey found the Democrat the winner by 53% to 22%.

    A poll of undecided independent voters by US network Fox also suggested Mr Obama was the victor. ”

    Awwweeeesomeeeeeeee

    McCain – Protip. When you’re the republican party candidate and even FOX are reporting that you lost your last ditch chance to look like anything other than a bit of a nutcase (sorry, I mean maverick!) that’s generally a good sign it’s time to crack out the waders and the fly fishing rod and just piss off into the hills for a few months.

  62. travellerev 62
    17 October 2008 at 4:26 am

    T-rex,

    I hate to break it to yah, but Obama has received the biggest contributions from the same scheisters causing the economic collapse and he is bought and paid for.
    No change will happen on his watch.

    There is no democracy anymore in the US.

  63. T-rex 63
    17 October 2008 at 5:17 am

    Trav, 50% of Americans think he’s the saviour of the country, either rightly or wrongly. I hate to break it to you, but that IS democracy.

    re: change – Bet ya a million bucks?

    Stuff always changes – Obama just has to prove he can react to it slightly more adeptly than Bush. Which wouldn’t take much.

    Has it occurred to you who ELSE is endorsing him?

  64. Jesse 64
    17 October 2008 at 7:40 am

    [lprent: warning comment by a previously banned wishart spammer]

    I think what ever John said or however it was interpreted maybe very small fish. Compared with what Wishart is going to let loose today . On 3 Labour Ministers saw it on the Stuff Blog.

    Someone must be feeding him the info could be far worse than the Secret Tapes saga

  65. Lampie 65
    17 October 2008 at 8:17 am

    John Key concedes he has privately indicated to the Maori Party that National’s policy to abolish the Maori seats would not stand in the way of doing a deal with the party post-election.

    Wrong was he Mr Key?? Did we lie to the public Mr Key??

  66. Lampie 66
    17 October 2008 at 8:32 am

    I think what ever John said or however it was interpreted maybe very small fish. Compared with what Wishart is going to let loose today . On 3 Labour Ministers saw it on the Stuff Blog.

    WHO????where???

  67. dad4justice 67
    17 October 2008 at 8:45 am

    I can’t wait, the Labour Party will be obliterated after this, because any sane voter would be far too embarrassed to vote for this trash.
    The timing is impeccable.

  68. milo 68
    17 October 2008 at 8:46 am

    Paul, Paul; so suddenly the “lies” are down to a single one on abolishing the Maori seats. Okay then, point me to the article. I’ll rebut it with the video clip The Standard embedded.

  69. travellerev 69
    17 October 2008 at 9:12 am

    T-rex,

    IMHO, a democracy is when the people have an actual say in what their leadership does when elected in office and where their leadership in fear of their opinion behaves in a democratic way. There have not been elections in the last 9 years. All smoke and mirrors and pre selected candidates but no elections.

    Watch American Blackout about the stolen elections.

    Diebold voting machines pre rigged to churn out the required result saw to that. This is what a former Diebold employee has to say about his former boss

    Obama voted together with McCain for the greatest rip off of the American people; the $700 billion bailout for his banking supporters which has already proved an abysmal failure and against which over 90 % of the American people were against.
    Doesn’t sound democratic to me.

    He’s railing against Iran while an overwhelming majority wants out of the two wars America is already fighting.
    He’s doing so because his banking oil raping war profiteering financiers want him to.
    Doesn’t sound very democratic to me.

    Whatever 50% of the American people think is of no consequence to the oligarchs ruling the USA and by extension the rest of us.

    So now they give the US sheeple a slick black guy to vote for. Big deal.

    Change? You bet.

    Before this year is over there will be blood and starvation on the streets of American cities and martial law will rule. in fact the US has been under the state of emergency sins 911

    Regardless of who the US population will vote for provided that there will be elections.

    By the way John Kerry and George Bush are both members of Skull and Bones a secret Yale society.
    And this is what happens if you ask John Kerry questions about it.
    Doesn’t look very democratic to me.

    And here they want to vote for a man who made his money working with the same banking crooks now pilfering America and the rest of us ($ 150 billion NZ and counting) on a truly monumental scale. A man who lies through his teeth to everybody and his dog in order to get voted into the most powerful position of the land. A man happy to peddle junk bonds and derivatives to pension funds. Go figure.

    Why not give the whole shebang straight to the US banksters and be done with it instead of going through the “we have to borrow loads of money for our infrastructure” and “oh oops, we lost the money now we will have to sell NZ off to the highest bidder” scam.

  70. Jesse 70
    17 October 2008 at 9:20 am

    [lprent: warning comment by a previously banned wishart spammer]

    Lampie

    Sorry should have given you Link. Now being advertised on One Zb by Wishart must have some legs to it.
    I smell more trouble coming for the Labour Party tomorrow just picked this up off Kiwiblog. Good on Ian Wishart he is one Journalist that Heather Simpson has no control of. Apparently this one is a biggie!!

    TGIF EDITION this weekend will be breaking a massive story, implicating two current cabinet ministers and a former Labour cabinet minister, in an unprecedented political scandal.

    We have the documents and the bodies. Read the burial notice on the front page of TGIF EDITION, out this weekend, and exclusively available to subscribers via http://www.tgifedition.com

    [lprent: Yeah right.- Wishart has an ego that is far bigger than his ability to research. If it follows his usual form it will be a few small stones twisted together to form a imaginary statue that only he can see. He always ignores the alternate explanations if they don’t fit what he expects to see. The guy is a total pillock]

  71. Felix 71
    17 October 2008 at 9:21 am

    Anyone know what time today Mr Wishart is going to bring down the government again?

    edit: Oh, there it it is.

    edit again: Jeez that’s an awful website, it’s like something Spondre would “produce”.

  72. dad4justice 72
    17 October 2008 at 9:26 am

    Felix – your snide remark would haunt you tomorrow. Bring it on Miss Diddums!!

    Edit – have you finished editing yet Foolix?

  73. Felix 73
    17 October 2008 at 9:29 am

    Yup finished now thanks Dud.

    edit: dood

  74. Vanilla Eis 74
    17 October 2008 at 9:30 am

    d4j: We’re all looking forward to it. No, really – I’d quite like to see the dynamite Wishart proclaims to have this time (After all, Absolute Power was this close to toppling the Govt last time).

  75. dad4justice 75
    17 October 2008 at 9:38 am

    Vanilla Eis – the fact that no litigation resulted through the release of the book Absolute Power just reiterates the point that New Zealanders are complacent about corruption within government. It’s really quite sad that no one cares about this!!!!!

    Edit – JUSTICE is coming.

  76. higherstandard 76
    17 October 2008 at 9:40 am

    Lynn

    ” If it follows his usual form it will be a few small stones twisted together to form a imaginary statue that only he can see. He always ignores the alternate explanations if they don’t fit what he expects to see.”

    Ha excellent – I’m sure you realise that could be applied to so many of the commentators (possibly the majority) in NZ.

  77. higherstandard 77
    17 October 2008 at 9:44 am

    Dad I wouldn’t get your hopes up it’ll be something we already know about and rehashed for sales or a damp squib if either of the major parties had serious dirt it would have come to light by now.

    The vast amount of NZ political incidents/scandals are actually very tame by world standards.

  78. randal 78
    17 October 2008 at 9:45 am

    in darkest hour in deepest night beware the power of green lanterns light…

  79. Felix 79
    17 October 2008 at 10:10 am

    I’ve got an exclusive scoop for you.

    It turns out that one of NZ’s stupidest writers is a useless sack-o-shite who has never, ever delivered on any of his hype.

    I’ll be revealing all the juicy details (including naming Ian Wishart) later today. For $36.

    Form an orderly queue please.

  80. Jesse 80
    17 October 2008 at 10:13 am

    [lprent: warning comment by a previously banned wishart spammer]

    Very interesting this Poll measurement shows Labour has Plateaued National holding and the Green only just on 5%.

    If the Labour vote falls away like it did on Election day last time compared with polls just prior to the Election. Could be very hard to form a Left Wing Government

  81. Paul 81
    17 October 2008 at 10:16 am

    “New Zealanders are complacent about corruption within government”

    Ah the insane rants of Dad4J

    Of course he is wrong and oh so wrong , that’s almost a flogging offence.

    According to the world government corruption index New Zealand is 1st equal with Denmark and Sweden as the least corrupt governments in the world.

  82. dad4justice 82
    17 October 2008 at 10:18 am

    Paul – please get some help for your rather unhealthy obsession with me.
    You need psych treatment real bad.

  83. Vanilla Eis 83
    17 October 2008 at 10:19 am

    Jesse: I thought Nationals support fell away last time? Didn’t Colmar Brunton predict a National win in ’05?

    d4j: Or it simply highlighted the stupidity in attempting to take a retard like Wishart who, by the way, has absolutely 0 credibility to court. It’s ‘Sods pigfucker argument all over again.

    I don’t see people taking the Truth tabloid to court every 5 minutes, but that doesn’t mean that everything they print is gospel.

  84. Paul 84
    17 October 2008 at 10:19 am

    Jesse does that poll take into account Key’s disastrous week.

    Lets recap thus far (still today to go mind).

    this week alone he’s managed to piss off the following core voters;

    1, scrap R&D – piss of Business NZ and the Manufacturers and Exporters Association.
    2, 40% legislation – piss off all bar one genuine economic commentator & forecaster (and only natural coalition partner ATC) including Bernard Hickey and Infometrics
    3, lied to either Pita Sharples or the Public – or both – thus piss either all of Maoridom off or everyone else off.

    Even a month ago I didn’t think Helen had a chance, this week I’m not so sure – honestly.

  85. Paul 85
    17 October 2008 at 10:21 am

    Dad “please get some help for your rather unhealthy” lies

    stop the lieliess and i’ll ease off – I don’t give a toss who you are, if you lie you will get criticised.

  86. dad4justice 86
    17 October 2008 at 10:27 am

    Your deteriorating mental state is a concern for all on blogosphere. Go and get some fresh air and you might feel a bit better Paul.

  87. randal 87
    17 October 2008 at 10:30 am

    repetitive echolalia. hmmmmm

  88. higherstandard 88
    17 October 2008 at 10:31 am

    Paul

    “Jesse does that poll take into account Key’s disastrous week.”

    Rightly or wrongly the defining political event of the week that will have an effect on the polls will likely be the leaders debate which is likely to be more positive for the Nats than Labour.

  89. Paul 89
    17 October 2008 at 10:54 am

    Come on you can’t take the people as fools. He may have won the leaders debate (although I don’t see it as that at all) but the ramifications has been that he lied to do so, and that has been played out in the media all week.

    Remember Senator Gore won all of the leaders debates over dumb ass Dubbya but still lost the election.

    Key’s done a great job of alienating his core vote and his natural allies and now he’s looking to bark up the Maori tree. If Sharples and Turia go with National, there will be blood on the Marae. Only 11% of Maori favour Maori in the latest poll. That’s not a close 45% or majority 51% – it’s a pitiful 11%.

    From Business NZ to ACT (Hide even blogged on Kiwiblog about his woeful policy), Infometrics, the Manufacturers and Exporters Association, small business NZ. There simply isn’t enough soft Labour voters to prop up his failing campaign.

    And tell you what, he’s had a hammering in the ODT today for his whistle stop behind closed doors visit to dunedin, in contrast to Helen’s open to the public 1500 crowd.

    http://www.odt.co.nz/election-2008/the-south/27712/low-key-visit-national-leader

    But Dad you lied. See if your wonderful leader can do it so easily, see how easy it is for the sheep to follow. The NZ Government is the least corrupt govt in the world, even your beloved USA is down in 18

  90. higherstandard 90
    17 October 2008 at 12:10 pm

    Paul you appear to be rambling.

    1. What Gore and Bush have to do with Clark and Key is beyond me.

    2. Key did not,lie to win the debate (read Irish Bill’s post for some sensible analysis)

    3. Key has not alienated his core vote and neither has Clark.

    4. The ODT article is hardly a ‘hammering”

    5. You appear to have made a mistake regarding the Maori poll – regardless the Maori party will do whatever is in the best interest of their constituents after they have presented their views on which way to go after the election.

  91. Jesse 91
    17 October 2008 at 12:47 pm

    [lprent: warning comment by a previously banned wishart spammer]

    Higherstandard

    Sorry I didnt put the link in for the Poll this one I believe did pick up on some of what you were saying here it is.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/vote08/0a28917.html

  92. Matthew Pilott 92
    17 October 2008 at 12:59 pm

    Jesse (Is that you, Rob, I thought lynn had shit-canned you?) that’s not a poll, it’s stuff’s poll tracker. The last polls were the three in the weekend.

    [lprent: Unlikely. Different IP range. Looks like they are writing actual comments – no irritating plagarism that I can detect in 60 seconds off google. ]

  93. Jesse 93
    17 October 2008 at 1:07 pm

    [lprent: warning comment by a previously banned wishart spammer]

    Paul

    You may be correct depends what way you look at it here is what I based my assumption on

    Roy Morgan Poll prior to last Election

    Nats 40.5%

    Labour 37.5%

    Herald Digi Poll just prior to Election

    Nats 37.4%

    Labour 44.6%

    Actual Result

    Nats 39% variance over two polls -1.6% (Herald) + 1.5% (roy Morgan)

    Labour 41% Variance over two polls + 3.6% (Herald) – 1.5% ( roy morgan)

    if you average the two polls out which is rough I agree Labour had a more inflated poll % prior to election day.

  94. Lampie 94
    17 October 2008 at 2:17 pm

    Key did not,lie to win the debate (read Irish Bill’s post for some sensible analysis)

    lie, perhaps not, bullshit, hell yes, education prime example as most of his vision are in place, ask a teacher they know the system, my wife works in the third largest high school.

  95. jo zinny 95
    17 October 2008 at 2:40 pm

    Chris S, ” No matter the size or scale of the issue the right will milk it for all it’s worth.”

    So.. is this how they intend making cheese cheaper..? [ Trying for a smiley >’icon_smile.gif’

  96. Matthew Pilott 96
    17 October 2008 at 2:48 pm

    “[lprent: Unlikely. Different IP range. Looks like they are writing actual comments – no irritating plagarism that I can detect in 60 seconds off google. ]”

    My apologies if so. It was the random capitalisation, sentence structure and the poll comment starting with ‘interesting’ that made me think so but sorry if I’m wrong. The next comment, giving a link and some facts definitely would be well out of character.

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