Putting Five Eyes in its place

Written By: - Date published: 10:25 pm, April 20th, 2021 - 19 comments
Categories: australian politics, China, Deep stuff, Iran, iraq, israel, Nanaia Mahuta, Propaganda, Russia, uk politics, us politics, war - Tags:

Following her speech to the NZ China Council, Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta wanted to be very clear that in speaking out about issues with other countries, New Zealand would not be doing it in concert with Five Eyes partners. She expressed a view that New Zealand did not agree with Five Eyes remit encroaching beyond intelligence, and that this had been communicated to Five Eyes partners. Good.

Helen Clark had expressed a similar view last year. I had the same view in my submission to the Justice and Electoral Select Committee a its special session to enquire into foreign interference in our elections. The SIS and GCSB produced nothing reports, at unknown costs, to say that while it may possibly happen they had no evidence that it did in the 2017 election. It has been the same for this latest election.

In the rest of the Five Eyes world the oxymoronic intelligence agencies are having a field day interfering in election politics, whether it is in their own countries or beyond. Russian interference in the US, anti-semitism in the UK, anti-China legislation in Canada and Australia, and that is only in their own countries. Elsewhere its colour revolutions, in Venezuela, Syria, Ukraine, Belarus to name but a few.

The US, UK, Canada and Australia have shifted their strategic priority from the ‘war on terror’ to ‘extreme competition’ with China, Russia and Iran. Israel as always is a player in the background. The euphemism does not disguise that what is now happening is war, albeit an information war.  But as we saw with Iraq and the ‘coalition of the willing’ that is the usual prelude to the kinetic version. And the difference between kinetic war against terrorists and that against states, is that in the current environment the latter will most likely turn nuclear, in which case we are all dead.

The Four Eyes media in the other countries have been predictably abusive about New Zealand going its independent way. How dare we be the taniwha that roared! It will be interesting to see what the New Zealand media do, David Lange famously and accurately described them as “reef fish,” and there has been evidence of a burgeoning consensus of ‘China bad,’ to the point where people of Asian origin have felt compelled to demonstrate to protest against it.

Nanaia Mahuta’s speech was themed “The Taniwha and the Dragon.” I think it is great that Aotearoa/New Zealand has decided to be clearly independent in the way we see the world, and how and with whom we will express our Tiriti values and grow our Asia-Pacific interests. We went our own way with Covid, and that should enable us  to face the rest of the 21st century with confidence.

19 comments on “Putting Five Eyes in its place ”

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  1. Anne 1
    20 April 2021 at 10:41 pm

    It feels almost like it might be a re-run of NZ's anti nuclear stance in the mid 1980s and beyond. I hope not because that had serious repercussions for many individuals in NZ who dared to stand tall and be counted.

    It is not in our interest to join the anti-China gang. To do so would be to cut off our noses to spite our faces. I refer in particular to the very important trade deals we have with them. That doesn’t mean we have to kowtow to them, or not show displeasure towards them when it is deserved.

    If our intelligence communities have the guts to tacitly support Nanaia Mahuta in this decision, I will applaud them. We'll have to wait and see what happens.

  2. Byd0nz 2
    20 April 2021 at 10:50 pm

    Well that has ruined my poem against 5 eyes, saying how NZ is under the Yankee and Bulldog thumb.

    How happy I am to be wrong on this matter. If Labour does nothing else, they have done us a great service in rejecting 5 eye fascism.Bravo

  3. Stuart Munro 3
    20 April 2021 at 10:54 pm

    There are a lot of foreign policy issues out there at present, with Russia demonstrating on Ukraine's border, and British fleets at least counter-demonstrating in the Black Sea.

    A principled neutrality has always been NZ's best position, with a bit of humanitarian intervention close to home. If we're looking for causes, Timor Leste could use a bit of help about now: Timor-Leste faces new challenge amid Covid-19 pandemic | RNZ News

    • greywarshark 3.1
      21 April 2021 at 11:57 am

      Time to think about Timor L'Este again indeed. I agree with your suggestions overall.

  4. Tiger Mountain 4
    21 April 2021 at 7:42 am

    Nice change to be able to enthusiastically support a Govt. Minister!

    Hopefully the Labour Caucus will support Nanaia Mahuta’s approach, and she is able to maintain this type of strategic line. Various think tanks, Associations (NATO affiliated and other), Security Agencies, ‘lifer’ diplomats and Ministry officials will be clocking up the hours trying deal with this Minister.

    5 Eyes belongs to a long faded Anglosphere, and it should be retired, and Aotearoa NZ pursue a non aligned, independent foreign policy, building relationships with the rest of the world based on mutually beneficial bi lateral trade and culture.

  5. RedBaronCV 5
    21 April 2021 at 11:10 am

    China is a problematic trading partner, seems overkeen on technology transfer ( doesn't respect others boundaries or ownership think kiwi fruit) and is running some fairly repressive political stuff. Quietly drifting away from them would be my pick for a policy.

    • Anne 6.1
      21 April 2021 at 8:07 pm

      New Zealand faces the prospect of expulsion from the Five Eyes intelligence alliance, according to the Daily Telegraph's defence editor, Con Coughlin, who says Jacinda Ardern has a preference for "cosying up to China's communist rulers".

      He refers to Jacinda Ardern as New Zealand's "tiresomely woke Prime Minister".

      "Thanks to Wellington's naïve decision to prioritise trade with China over its membership of the elite Five Eyes intelligence-sharing network, Ms Ardern can expect her country's isolation to deepen further as New Zealand faces the very real prospect of expulsion from the alliance over its pro-Beijing stance."

      What a load of dripping pus from an ultra conservative war mongering British git still living in the colonial dark ages. Mind you with a name like his it isn't surprising. 😎

      • In Vino 6.1.1
        21 April 2021 at 8:25 pm

        As I understand things, China has quietly dropped communism, and adopted many capitalist practices. I think China is still totalitarian, which I see as a far greater evil than communist.

        Yet here in our media (who treat us all as if most of us are idiots) the Chinese are still vilified by being falsely labeled as communist.

        • Stuart Munro 6.1.1.1
          21 April 2021 at 8:49 pm

          It seemed a little complicated when I was there – many communitarian communist values survive to some degree, especially those that fit in with traditional Confucian ethics. The yuppie businessfolk I worked were thus downright rude to young beggars – but kind and generous to older widows.

          The mass of Chinese people have little or no conflict with the authoritarian part of the state, and so they don't experience it as particularly totalitarian.

          When conflict does occur, it is as heartless and as beyond appeal as the rulings of ACC – small gods playing force majeure with their borrowed authority. Hence why it sucks to be a Uighur, or anyone else the state deems uncooperative.

      • Michael 6.1.2
        22 April 2021 at 4:16 pm

        I'd love to know who fed this guy his material – MI6? My guess is right-wing figuers here in Aotearoa are the villains. I'm also fairly sure that our Five Eyes partners have no intention of kicking us out. They need us too.

        • Anne 6.1.2.1
          22 April 2021 at 7:43 pm

          He probably got it from some pompous NZ Defence Force 'git' who thinks that anyone who has ever voted Labour or – horror of horrors – the Greens is a paid up member of the KGB (alias FSB).

          They still exist inside the Defence Force but thankfully slowly dying off.

  7. Michael 7
    22 April 2021 at 4:14 pm

    I agree with Mahuta (and her colleagues who would have approved her speech). Five Eyes is an intelligence network that we need (not least because we could never afford one like it by ourselves) at a time when China is aggressively projecting power into our region. But an intelligence network is all Five Eyes is. It is not a multipurpose framework for conducting operations against China. BTW, it is a fundamental principle of military organisation that intelligence and operations functions remain separate. If we need to work with our allies to respond to Chinese threat we should use other mechanisms. I'm not sure that we actually need to do that yet but we do need to think about it, just as we need to look at our military capabilities.

  8. Ad 8
    22 April 2021 at 8:10 pm

    Well Mahuta's metaphorical speech was fine for about 8 hours, then came blowback, now today Ardern and Mahuta are walking it back and making every reassurance that nothing has changed and we are fully in the family tent again.

    That paves the way for a big Scott Morrison visit here in a couple of months. Sweetness and light breaks out.

    Morrison just overruled Victoria's belt and road sign up. So they remain the harshest pushback against China.

    Our wiggle room has no more wiggle left.

    • Anne 8.1
      22 April 2021 at 8:44 pm

      Ahh… that's not the response I saw from Ardern. She upheld Mahuta's statement and made it clear there is no intention to remove NZ from the 5 Eyes alliance – nor does NZ have any intention of removing itself. I paraphrase.

      Helen Clark has also responded to the claim that they planned to remove NZ during her time as PM – because of her refusal to send troops to Iraq – and describing it as a staggering claim that never happened.

      That’s not walking it back.

      No surprises for guessing what is going on here. A right wing conspiracy theorist who lies? Nothing new about that.

      See Joe 90s wikipedia link.

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    One of the threats in the National - ACT - NZ First coalition agreements was to extend the term of Parliament to four years, reducing our opportunities to throw a bad government out. The justification? Apparently, the government thinks "elections are expensive". This is the stupidest of stupid reasons for ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago

  • A website bereft of buzz
    Buzz from the Beehive The new government was being  sworn in, at time of writing , and when Point of Order checked the Beehive website for the latest ministerial statements and re-visit some of the old ones we drew a blank. We found ….  Nowt. Nothing. Zilch. Not a ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago

  • MICHAEL BASSETT: A new Ministry – at last
    Michael Bassett writes – Like most people, I was getting heartily sick of all the time being wasted over the coalition negotiations. During the first three weeks Winston grinned like a Cheshire cat, certain he’d be needed; Chris Luxon wasted time in lifting the phone to Winston ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    6 days ago

  • Luxon's Breakfast.
    The Prime Minister elect had his silver fern badge on. He wore it to remind viewers he was supporting New Zealand, that was his team. Despite the fact it made him look like a concierge, or a welcomer in a Koru lounge. Anna Burns-Francis, the Breakfast presenter, asked if he ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    6 days ago

  • LINDSAY MITCHELL:  Oranga Tamariki faces major upheaval under coalition agreement
     Lindsay Mitchell writes – A hugely significant gain for ACT is somewhat camouflaged by legislative jargon. Under the heading ‘Oranga Tamariki’ ACT’s coalition agreement contains the following item:   Remove Section 7AA from the Oranga Tamariki Act 1989 According to Oranga Tamariki:     “Section ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    7 days ago

  • BRIAN EASTON:  Peters as Minister
    A previous column looked at Winston Peters biographically. This one takes a closer look at his record as a minister, especially his policy record. Brian Easton writes – 1990-1991: Minister of Māori Affairs. Few remember Ka Awatea as a major document on the future of Māori policy; there is ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    7 days ago

  • Cathrine Dyer's guide to watching COP 28 from the bottom of a warming planet
    Is COP28 largely smoke and mirrors and a plan so cunning, you could pin a tail on it and call it a weasel? Photo: Getty ImagesTL;DR: COP28 kicks off on November 30 and up for negotiation are issues like the role of fossil fuels in the energy transition, contributions to ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    7 days ago

  • Top 10 news links at 10 am for Monday, Nov 27
    PM Elect Christopher Luxon was challenged this morning on whether he would sack Adrian Orr and Andrew Coster.TL;DR: Here’s my pick of top 10 news links elsewhere at 10 am on Monday November 27, including:Signs councils are putting planning and capital spending on hold, given a lack of clear guidance ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    7 days ago

  • Gordon Campbell on the new government’s policies of yesteryear
    This column expands on a Werewolf column published by Scoop on Friday Routinely, Winston Peters is described as the kingmaker who gets to decide when the centre right or the centre-left has a turn at running this country. He also plays a less heralded but equally important role as the ...
    Gordon CampbellBy lyndon
    7 days ago

  • The New Government’s Agreements
    Last Friday, almost six weeks after election day, National finally came to an agreement with ACT and NZ First to form a government. They also released the agreements between each party and looking through them, here are the things I thought were the most interesting (and often concerning) from the. ...
    Greater AucklandBy Matt L
    7 days ago

  • How many smokers will die to fund the tax cuts?
    Maori and Pasifika smoking rates are already over twice the ‘all adult’ rate. Now the revenue that generates will be used to fund National’s tax cuts. Photo: Getty ImagesTL;DR: The devil is always in the detail and it emerged over the weekend from the guts of the policy agreements National ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    7 days ago

  • How the culture will change in the Beehive
    Perhaps the biggest change that will come to the Beehive as the new government settles in will be a fundamental culture change. The era of endless consultation will be over. This looks like a government that knows what it wants to do, and that means it knows what outcomes ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    7 days ago

  • No More Winnie Blues.
    So what do you think of the coalition’s decision to cancel Smokefree measures intended to stop young people, including an over representation of Māori, from taking up smoking? Enabling them to use the tax revenue to give other people a tax cut?David Cormack summed it up well:It seems not only ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    1 week ago

  • 2023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #47
    A chronological listing of news and opinion articles posted on the Skeptical Science  Facebook Page during the past week: Sun, Nov 19, 2023 thru Sat, Nov 25, 2023.  Story of the Week World stands on frontline of disaster at Cop28, says UN climate chief  Exclusive: Simon Stiell says leaders must ‘stop ...
    Skeptical Science
    1 week ago

  • Some of it is mad, some of it is bad and some of it is clearly the work of people who are dangerous ...
    On announcement morning my mate texted:Typical of this cut-price, fake-deal government to announce itself on Black Friday.What a deal. We lose Kim Hill, we gain an empty, jargonising prime minister, a belligerent conspiracist, and a heartless Ayn Rand fanboy. One door closes, another gets slammed repeatedly in your face.It seems pretty ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    1 week ago

  • “Revolution” is the threat as the Māori Party smarts at coalition government’s Treaty directi...
    Buzz from the Beehive Having found no fresh announcements on the government’s official website, Point of Order turned today to Scoop’s Latest Parliament Headlines  for its buzz. This provided us with evidence that the Māori Party has been soured by the the coalition agreement announced yesterday by the new PM. “Soured” ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    1 week ago

  • The Good, the Bad, and the even Worse.
    Yesterday the trio that will lead our country unveiled their vision for New Zealand.Seymour looking surprisingly statesmanlike, refusing to rise to barbs about his previous comments on Winston Peters. Almost as if they had just been slapstick for the crowd.Winston was mostly focussed on settling scores with the media, making ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    1 week ago

  • When it Comes to Palestine – Free Speech is Under Threat
    Hi,Thanks for getting amongst Mister Organ on digital — thanks to you, we hit the #1 doc spot on iTunes this week. This response goes a long way to helping us break even.I feel good about that. Other things — not so much.New Zealand finally has a new government, and ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    1 week ago

  • Thank you Captain Luxon. Was that a landing, or were we shot down?
    Hello! Here comes the Saturday edition of More Than A Feilding, catching you up on the past week’s editions.Also in More Than A FeildingFriday The unboxing And so this is Friday and what have we gone and done to ourselves?In the same way that a Christmas present can look lovely under the ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    1 week ago

  • New Zealand welcomes European Parliament vote on the NZ-EU Free Trade Agreement
    A significant milestone in ratifying the NZ-EU Free Trade Agreement (FTA) was reached last night, with 524 of the 705 member European Parliament voting in favour to approve the agreement. “I’m delighted to hear of the successful vote to approve the NZ-EU FTA in the European Parliament overnight. This is ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

  • Further humanitarian support for Gaza, the West Bank and Israel
    The Government is contributing a further $5 million to support the response to urgent humanitarian needs in Gaza, the West Bank and Israel, bringing New Zealand’s total contribution to the humanitarian response so far to $10 million. “New Zealand is deeply saddened by the loss of civilian life and the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago

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