Russel & Metiria – or Winston?
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9:30 am, April 23rd, 2014 - 133 comments
Categories: election 2014, greens, labour, Metiria Turei, MMP, nz first, russel norman, uncategorized, winston peters -
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Yesterday Rob Salmond commented on Labour’s two likeliest options for coalition partners after the 2014 election, and had some interesting things to say about New Zealand First and the Greens.
But I must beg to differ on the suggested advantages of offering a plum deal to Winston and expecting Russel and Metiria to play along for the sake of a leftwing government at all costs.
Of course Labour shouldn’t rule out working with Winston, because the cardinal rule of NZ politics is “Never underestimate the power of Winston”. And he’s proven himself quite capable of backing good social policies, as long as they’re populist and have Winston’s name all over them.
But he’s also a man who has happily settled for completely empty titles in the past – the role of Treasurer, or Minister-of-Foreign-Affairs-outside Cabinet, must be the definition of ‘baubles of power’.
Then we have the Greens, who have steadily increased their share of the vote, and who have become increasingly pragmatic about the abilities of a mid-sized party in an MMP Parliament to get things done.
Interestingly, published around the same time as Rob’s post was this from Chris Trotter in the Press, on the challenge faced by the Green Party:
Only the Greens have grasped the need to turn the mechanisms of the market to new, environmentally sustainable and socially integrative purposes.
…
That being the case, we should not be surprised at the constant and increasingly aggressive misrepresentation of the Greens’ political project.
I don’t think Rob was wilfully misrepresenting the Greens in his post – but he has shown a bit of a tendency to assume that everything they do is a calculated power play. In the post linked above, he states
I think this realization underscores Metiria Turei’s weekend musing about co-Deputy Prime Ministers, which I imagine she knows is simply not going to fly in 2014. Now that she has floated the idea, it gives the Greens another thing to “very reluctantly give away” in the negotiations.
In an earlier post at Polity, he asserts that it was the Greens who leaked details of their offer for a pre-election deal – something I’ve not seen proven anywhere. (Personally, I think it’s just as likely that a certain freshly-departed, strongly anti-Green, Labour MP could have done it to further wedge the parties apart.)
Yet Jim Anderton was Deputy PM with 10 Alliance MPs following the 1999 election. And as Rob himself has pointed out, pre-election deals aren’t unheard of.
I’m seeing a tendency to assume that New Zealand First, while hazardous to handle, can be domesticated; whereas the Greens are inherently untrustworthy. If we take it back to Trotter’s column, it makes sense: the Greens, however many votes they get or however many diplomatic overtures they make, will always be the outside party because of their fundamentally different approach to politics and society.
But I see two problems with this strategy.
Not enough voters on the left are this pragmatic. There are those who would happily accept a Labour/NZ First alliance – who would prefer it to a Labour/Green coalition. But there are also those who do not trust Winston, will never trust Winston, and would rather stay at home on election day than suffer the notion of Winston or any of his erratic mini-me MPs sitting at the Cabinet table.
And the Greens won’t be willing to get stiffed for the sake of placating Winston’s ego. They’re a principled party, and while it could definitely lose them some of their softer Labour converts, their base wouldn’t punish them harshly for sitting on the cross-benches, voting confidence and supply on a case-by-case basis, if the alternative is playing second fiddle to a party with half the number of seats.
David Cunliffe has stuck with the line, ‘we’re not ruling anything out until the voters have had their say.’ It’s the best way to operate in MMP. But it’s natural to think about what a Labour-led government will look like after the election. And I think the Greens deserve to be taken a bit more seriously.
Stephanie blogs at Boots Theory and can also be found on Twitter.
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- Release: Over 15,000 sign Labour’s open letter to Luxon
As the hīkoi to Parliament continues, Labour has sent an open letter to Prime Minister Christopher Luxon in a last-ditch attempt to get him to kill the Treaty Principles Bill. ...1 week ago
- Fast Track Bill threatens environment, climate and reputation
The fast-track legislation passing its second reading in Parliament is another step towards environmental ruin. ...1 week ago
- Greens join King’s Counsel in calling for Treaty Principles Bill to be abandoned
The Prime Minister must answer the call from a group of senior lawyers of the King’s Counsel to abandon the divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...1 week ago
- Chris Hipkins’ apology statement to state and faith-based care survivors
...1 week ago
- Release: Labour formally apologises to state and faith-based care survivors
Labour joins with the Government in unreservedly apologising for the abuse, neglect and trauma including torture in state and faith-based care and for ignoring the voices of survivors for too long. ...1 week ago
- Green Party stands in support of survivors of abuse in care
Today, the Green Party stands alongside the survivors of abuse in state care and faith-based care as the Government issues an historic apology. ...1 week ago
- Green Party calls for conscience vote on Treaty Principles Bill
The Green Party has written to the Speaker of the House requesting he enable a personal vote on the Treaty Principles Bill. ...2 weeks ago
- Govt move to exclude journalist risks chilling effect
The Green Party is alarmed by the Government’s move to exclude a journalist from covering this week’s apology for the survivors of abuse in state and faith-based care. ...2 weeks ago
- Without action, an apology will be empty air
For tomorrow’s apology to survivors of abuse in state and faith-based care to hold any water, the Government must not pursue the same policies that drove the abuse in the first place. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Concerns remain over tobacco interference
Concerns about the tobacco industry’s ability to interfere in government policy making remain, despite the inability of the Office of the Auditor-General to investigate the Government’s decision to halve the excise tax on heated tobacco products. ...2 weeks ago
- Urgent wake-up call on climate
The Climate Change Commission’s latest advice indicates Aotearoa needs to be stepping up on climate action. ...2 weeks ago
- Green MP’s Meme-ber’s Bill set to save the world
Break out the punchlines and dust off your meme folder: Green Party MP Kahurangi Carter’s Copyright (Parody and Satire) Amendment Bill was pulled from the Ballot yesterday. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Poroporoaki: Ta Robert (Bom) Gillies
Kua hinga te manawa kairākau o Te Rua Tekau Ma Waru Tiwhatiwha te po! Kakarauru i te po! Ka rapuhia kei hea koe kua riro! Haere e te Ika a Whiro ki o tini hoa kua ngaro atu ki te Pō ...2 weeks ago
- Labour, Greens and Te Pāti Māori call on the Prime Minister to block the Treaty Principles Bill
The opposition parties stand united for an Aotearoa that honours Te Tiriti, rather than seeking to rewrite it. Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori are working together against the Government’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Labour, Greens and Te Pāti Māori call on the Prime Minister to block the Treaty Principle...
The opposition parties stand united for an Aotearoa that honours Te Tiriti, rather than seeking to rewrite it. Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori are working together against the Government’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...2 weeks ago
- NZ must pursue independent foreign policy
The Green Party says the need is greater than ever for Aotearoa New Zealand to pursue an independent foreign policy. ...2 weeks ago
- Government action provides Southland farmers more time to meet plan requirements
The Government is taking action to ensure Southland farmers and growers are not affected by unreasonable regional farm plan deadlines, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay, Environment Minister Penny Simmonds and Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard say.“Cabinet has agreed to provide more time for farmers and growers to comply with regional rules ...17 hours ago - Bill reaffirms Government’s commitment to crack down on serious youth offending
The Oranga Tamariki (Responding to Serious Youth Offending) Bill had its first reading at Parliament today. The Bill reaffirms the Government’s commitment to crack down on serious youth offending, Minister for Children Karen Chhour says. “In recent years we have seen an unacceptable spike in youth offending. “This Bill makes ...18 hours ago
- Critical milestones for earthquake buildings review
Fairer, more sensible rules about managing earthquake risks are a step closer with the passing of legislation and the appointment of an independent chair to provide expert advice, Minister for Building and Construction Chris Penk says. “The Government is committed to reinvigorating our cities and regions to support economic growth, ...18 hours ago
- State of the art radiology machine for Auckland
People in Northland and Auckland will benefit from a new machine for cancer treatment installed at the Regional Cancer and Blood Service at Auckland City Hospital. The MV5 linear accelerator, or LINAC machine, officially opened today targets cancer tumours with pinpoint accuracy. Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says this new, ...18 hours ago
- Foreign Minister to visit Europe
Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Winston Peters will travel to Europe for high-level talks with France, Germany and the United Kingdom next week. "Since taking office almost a year ago, the Coalition Government has emphasised the importance we place on New Zealand's traditional and likeminded diplomatic and ...19 hours ago
- First arrests made under gang patch ban
Police have made their first arrests under the new gang patch legislation, with two gang members arrested, says Police Minister Mark Mitchell. “Just before 11 this morning, Police in Wairoa apprehended a gang member for wearing a patch to the supermarket. He has been arrested and will now face enforcement ...20 hours ago
- Better support for victims of sexual violence
The Government is proposing two major changes to name suppression laws that will put the views of victims of sexual violence first, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “We are committed to restoring law and order and these two proposed changes will help ensure the victims of crime are put at ...21 hours ago
- Government moving forward with Regional Deals
Cabinet has agreed to invite all regions to submit proposals for Regional Deals between central and local government that drive economic growth and deliver the infrastructure our country needs, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown and Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop say. Inviting all regions to propose a Regional Deal that boosts ...21 hours ago
- MSA pilot participant update
One of the ten young men selected to participate in the Military-Style Academy Pilot has allegedly reoffended. Children’s Minister Karen Chhour is disappointed but says it would be naïve to think that none of these young men would reoffend. “I’m saddened that this young person has not taken this opportunity ...22 hours ago
- Fighting for Kiwis in Trade
Delivered at Auckland Trade and Economic Policy School Good morning and thank you Deputy Vice Chancellor Lithander for your warm welcome and for inviting me to open Auckland Trade and Economic Policy School today. A Special thanks to the University of Auckland, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade and ...23 hours ago
- Attendance rates increase, again
Associate Education Minister David Seymour says that school attendance is continuing to rise. In Term 3 of 2024 51.3 per cent of students attended school regularly, an increase of 5.3 percentage points from 46 per cent in Term 3 of 2023. “This Government has prioritised student attendance and it is ...24 hours ago
- Improving the lives of young New Zealanders
Ensuring New Zealand is the best place in the world for children and young people is the vision at the heart of the Government’s new Child and Youth Strategy, Child Poverty Reduction Minister Louise Upston says. “Childhood represents a huge opportunity to set people on a positive path towards living ...1 day ago
- Government continues work to reinstate livestock exports by sea
The Government is reinstating the trade of livestock exports by sea while ensuring the highest standards of animal welfare, says Associate Minister of Agriculture Andrew Hoggard.“The Government will introduce legislation changes to reinstate the trade, enhance oversight, and strengthen requirements for exporters to identify risks and manage the welfare of ...2 days ago
- Speech to the National Quality Forum 2024
Tēnā koutou katoa – it is a pleasure to be here today. I would like to begin by acknowledging the important leadership role you all play in ensuring a quality health system New Zealanders can trust. There is enormous clinical expertise in this room covering a wide range of disciplines. ...2 days ago
- New Zealand’s COP29 National Statement
Tēnā koutou katoa. Mr President, Excellencies, Delegates. New Zealand, and all nations represented here today, are already dealing with the impacts of climate change. Our households, businesses, and economies are bearing the costs of its effects. The choices we make now will shape the severity of these impacts for generations ...2 days ago
- Latest Quarterly Investment Report released
The Government has released its second Quarterly Investment Report (QIR) which shows substantial work still to be done by agencies to improve investment reporting and meet the Government’s expectations, Infrastructure and Acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “New Zealand has significant infrastructure and investment needs. The Government is determined to get ...2 days ago
- New Zealand supporting loss and damage fund
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced New Zealand will contribute NZ$10 million to the new Fund for Responding to Loss and Damage while at the annual United Nations Climate Change Conference (COP29) in Baku, Azerbaijan. “New Zealand is joining the global effort to address the significant challenge of responding to ...2 days ago
- Gang crackdown begins at stroke of midnight
The free ride for gangs is over when the clock strikes midnight tonight, with tough new laws officially coming into effect, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith and Police Minister Mark Mitchell say. “Gang patches will no longer be able to be worn in public. To earn the right to wear a ...2 days ago
- LGFA increases borrowing capacity to support high growth councils
The Government is welcoming the decision by the Local Government Funding Agency to increase access to financing tools for fast growing councils to support greater investment in critical infrastructure, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown says.“Communities across the country are facing an infrastructure deficit and significant population growth is projected in ...2 days ago
- Temporary Traffic Management costs revealed
The Government has revealed that over the past three years, the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) has spent an eyewatering $786 million of taxpayers’ money on road cones and temporary traffic management (TTM), Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“When I became Minister, I was surprised to learn that that NZTA did ...2 days ago
- Jurisdiction of Disputes Tribunal to double
Legislation that will double the financial jurisdiction of the Disputes Tribunal from $30,000 to $60,000 has passed first reading in Parliament today, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith. “We need to improve court timeliness and access to justice so that Kiwis and get on with their lives. Court delays affect everyone, the ...3 days ago
- Protecting New Zealand from foreign interference
Legislation that will specifically criminalise foreign interference and strengthen espionage offences has passed first reading in Parliament today, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “It is normal and appropriate for states to interact and work to influence one another. This encourages cooperation and can have mutually beneficial outcomes. “However, the reality ...3 days ago
- Significant milestone for Canterbury Road of National Significance
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed news that the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) Board has approved funding towards pre-implementation and early works on the State Highway 1 (SH1) Belfast to Pegasus Motorway and Woodend Bypass Road of National Significance (RoNS). “Reaching this significant milestone is a reflection of our Government’s ...3 days ago
- Health survey results to help drive change
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says findings from the annual Health Survey highlight the need to continue driving better health outcomes for New Zealanders. The New Zealand Health Survey is an annual snapshot of key metrics measured from July 2023 – July 2024. Findings released this morning include: In 2023/24, ...3 days ago
- Final push needed to get to Smokefree 2025
A renewed effort to get people to quit smoking will build on what has worked to date and target the groups who most need support, Associate Health Minister Casey Costello said today. “The latest New Zealand Health Survey results show the daily smoking rate at 6.9 per cent and we ...3 days ago
- New diplomatic appointments
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters has announced four new diplomatic appointments. “Our diplomats play an important role in ensuring New Zealand’s interests are maintained and enhanced across the world,” Mr Peters says. “It is a pleasure to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the Ministry of Foreign ...3 days ago
- Next steps for Regulatory Standards Bill
Regulation Minister David Seymour has today announced the next steps in the Government’s plan improve the quality of regulation by opening consultation on a proposed Regulatory Standards Bill. “New Zealand's low wages can be blamed on low productivity, and low productivity can be blamed on poor regulation,” says Mr Seymour. ...3 days ago
- Red Tape Tipline goes live
Minister for Regulation David Seymour has today announced that the Ministry for Regulation’s Red Tape Tipline is now live. “We want to hear about your red tape horror stories. From today, New Zealanders will have a say on how they are regulated through an online portal,” says Mr Seymour. The ...3 days ago
- Youth Parliament 2025 announced
The Minister for Youth Matt Doocey has today announced the eleventh Youth Parliament will be taking place in 2025. “Youth Parliament offers a unique youth development opportunity to young people from across New Zealand to experience the political process and learn about how government works,” says Mr Doocey. “The two-day ...4 days ago
- Police stats show promising change
After nearly a year in Government, Kiwis have seen significant change across law and order with promising early results shown across some Police statistics, says Police Minister Mark Mitchell. “In August 2023, I told New Zealanders that if they had not started to see a change in public safety within ...4 days ago
- Better coordination of anti-scam efforts
With the launch of Fraud Awareness Week, the Government is committing to new coordination efforts across industry and government to combat online scams, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Online financial scams are a growing problem for New Zealand. New data released today shows that Kiwis lost nearly ...4 days ago
- Minister to consider 7AA select committee report
Minister for Children Karen Chhour will consider the recommendations made by the Social Services and Community Committee in its report back to Parliament on the Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill. “I want to thank the people who made submissions and those who appeared before the committee in ...4 days ago
- Defence Minister to attend ASEAN meeting
Defence Minister Judith Collins will this week attend the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) Defence Ministers’ Meeting-Plus in Vientiane, Laos. “We need to take every opportunity to engage with our international partners, given the increasingly unstable geo-political situation,” Ms Collins says. “New Zealand has a long-standing commitment to this ...4 days ago
- Launching the White Ribbon Ride
The Minister for the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence, Karen Chhour, was on hand to wish riders well at the start of the North Island leg of the White Ribbon Ride in Whakatāne this morning. The ride helps mark the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women, ...5 days ago
- Construction to begin on next stage of Papakura to Drury
Construction on the next stage of the SH1 Papakura to Drury project will begin early next month, with the contract for works awarded to Fulton Hogan, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. "SH1 Papakura to Drury is a key project that will drive economic growth and productivity, reduce congestion, and enable people ...6 days ago
- NZ signs trade deal with Costa Rica, Iceland and Switzerland
Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay has signed a pioneering trade agreement that prioritises New Zealand’s sustainable exports at a ceremony during APEC in Peru today. “The Agreement on Trade and Sustainability (ACCTS), between Costa Rica, Iceland, and Switzerland was concluded in July of this year and opens up significant ...6 days ago
- Government and iwi work together on aquaculture
Five new Aquaculture Settlement Areas will help ensure Ngāi Tahu shares in the opportunities aquaculture offers for Southland’s economy, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. “The Aquaculture Settlement Areas (ASAs) I’m announcing today set aside space so the Crown and Ngāi Tahu can assess their potential for aquaculture development. ...7 days ago
- Government launches review to ensure electricity market is fit-for-purpose
The terms of reference for a review of the performance of the electricity market have been released. The review, initiated by the Coalition Government during the power crisis in winter will look at whether current regulations and market design support economic growth and access to reliable and affordable electricity, Energy Minister ...7 days ago
- Speech to Social Investment Hui: Jack and his whānau need our help
Kia ora koutou katoa. Nau mai, haere mai, piki mai. Ki te mihi atu ahau, ki te manwhenua nei, Te Atiawa, Ngāti toa rangatira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Thank you, Andy, for your introduction. Let me acknowledge you as the new Chief Executive of the Social Investment ...1 week ago
- Minister of State for Trade heads to Brisbane for PACER Plus meeting
Minister of State for Trade Nicola Grigg has travelled to Australia to attend the PACER Plus Ministers Meeting in Brisbane. “Trade plays a critical role in driving employment, economic growth, and improving the standards of living in the Pacific Region. The Government is strongly committed to supporting Pacific Island countries ...1 week ago
- RNA editing is the next frontier in gene therapy – here’s what you need to know
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Flora Hui, Research Fellow, Centre for Eye Research Australia and Honorary Fellow, Department of Surgery (Ophthalmology), The University of Melbourne IoanaB/Shutterstock The United States Food and Drug Administration has just approved the first-ever clinical trial that uses CRISPR-Cas13 RNA editing. Its ...1 hour ago - Yes, you still need to use sunscreen, despite what you’ve heard on TikTok
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Katie Lee, PhD Candidate, Dermatology Research Centre, The University of Queensland Karolina Grabowska/Pexels Summer is nearly here. But rather than getting out the sunscreen, some TikTokers are urging followers to chuck it out and go sunscreen-free. They claim it’s healthier ...1 hour ago
- Humans are killing off the old and wise animals that hold nature together. Here’s what must change
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Keller Kopf, Senior Lecturer in Ecology, Charles Darwin University Laxmikant Ameenagad, Shutterstock In humans and other animals, ageing is generally associated with a decline in biological function. But scientists are now discovering older animals perform vital roles in populations and ecosystems. ...1 hour ago
- A man scouring Google Earth found a mysterious scar in the Australian outback – and now scientists...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Matej Lipar, Adjunct Research Fellow, School of Earth and Planetary Sciences, Curtin University Author provided/Google Earth Earlier this year, a caver was poring over satellite images of the Nullarbor Plain when he came across something unexpected: an enormous, mysterious scar etched ...1 hour ago
- Design as a movement: how First Nations people take ownership of their cultural stories through fash...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Treena Clark, Chancellor’s Indigenous Research Fellow, Faculty of Design, Architecture and Building, University of Technology Sydney Once located 250 metres to the east of the Art Gallery of South Australia, the grand beaux-arts style Jubilee Exhibition Building was constructed to house the ...1 hour ago
- ‘We need more doctors’ – Support for new Waikato medical school
The Association of Salaried Medical Specialists says a third medical school and more students in Auckland and Otago are both needed. ...2 hours ago - Cricket balls can concuss and even kill batters – at all levels, helmet use must be taken seriousl...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Annette Greenhow, Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, Bond University Linda George/Shutterstock The ten-year anniversary of the death of much-loved Australian cricketer Phillip Hughes falls on November 27. The 25-year-old’s life was tragically cut short in 2014 when a bouncer ...2 hours ago
- Hold the roosters, no economic dawn yet
Treasury likely to downgrade economic forecast while Chris Bishop says the government won’t be ‘a slave to a surplus’, writes Anna Rawhiti-Connell in this extract from The Bulletin. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. Recession will be deeper and last longer — Treasury At a recent Spinoff ...2 hours ago - Knowing superstitions aren’t real doesn’t stop us behaving superstitiously – why?
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephanie Gomes-Ng, Senior Lecturer of Psychology, Auckland University of Technology Getty Images Former New Zealand prime minister John Key has three white rabbits painted on his helicopter, a nod to his “massively superstitious” habit of repeating “white rabbits” three times at ...3 hours ago
- Government slammed for pushing ahead with boot camps while trial still under way
The coalition has "absolutely no intention of listening to the evidence that comes out of their experiment", Labour MP says. ...4 hours ago
- Smoke and mirrors in tobacco debate
Labour claims Government is ‘cherry-picking’ smoking trends data to hide decade-first increase in daily smokers The post Smoke and mirrors in tobacco debate appeared first on Newsroom. ...4 hours ago - Smoke and mirrors in heated tobacco debate
Labour claims Government is ‘cherry-picking’ smoking trends data to hide decade-first increase in daily smokers The post Smoke and mirrors in heated tobacco debate appeared first on Newsroom. ...4 hours ago
- Treasury bangs the drum on ‘unsustainable’ superannuation
The Government’s economic adviser is sending a message it doesn’t want to hear – superannuation is increasingly unaffordable The post Treasury bangs the drum on ‘unsustainable’ superannuation appeared first on Newsroom. ...5 hours ago
- Victims of sex offending welcome shift on name suppression laws
A man abused by a former political figure is "immensely relieved" at a government proposal to end secrecy around sex offenders' identities. ...5 hours ago
- This week three parties stood together – can they withstand the storm to come?
There is plenty yet to play out, but the next election is at this rate shaping up as trio versus trio, writes Toby Manhire. A subplot of this week’s historic hīkoi mō te Tiriti has been the sight of the three opposition parties presenting a unified front. Te Pāti Māori ...5 hours ago
- All 33 malls in Auckland ranked from worst to best
From the low lows of abandon empires to the high highs of a mall done just right. This is the second in the Malls of New Zealand series, where we rank the malls in major centres. Next week: Wellington. A note from the editor: This is the hardest ranking we’ve ...5 hours ago
- The cost of being: A clothes-mad 20-something who walks everywhere
As part of our series exploring how New Zealanders live and our relationship with money, a 27-year-old apartment-dwelling marketing exec explains her approach to spending and saving. Want to be part of The Cost of Being? Fill out the questionnaire here. Gender: Female. Age: 27. Ethnicity: Pākehā. Role: Marketing exec at ...5 hours ago
- Newsroom daily quiz, Friday 22 November
Loading…(function(i,s,o,g,r,a,m){var ql=document.querySelectorAll('A[data-quiz],DIV[data-quiz]'); if(ql){if(ql.length){for(var k=0;k<ql.length;k++){ql[k].id='quiz-embed-'+k;ql[k].href="javascript:var i=document.getElementById('quiz-embed-"+k+"');try{qz.startQuiz(i)}catch(e){i.start=1;i.style.cursor='wait';i.style.opacity='0.5'};void(0);"}}};i['QP']=r;i[r]=i[r]||function(){(i[r].q=i[r].q||[]).push(arguments)},i[r].l=1*new Date();a=s.createElement(o),m=s.getElementsByTagName(o)[0];a.async=1;a.src=g;m.parentNode.insertBefore(a,m)})(window,document,'script','https://take.quiz-maker.com/3012/CDN/quiz-embed-v1.js','qp');Got a good quiz question? Send Newsroom your questions.The post Newsroom daily quiz, Friday 22 November appeared first on Newsroom. ...5 hours ago
- Daily crossword, Friday 22 November
The post Daily crossword, Friday 22 November appeared first on Newsroom. ...5 hours ago
- China likely to strengthen regional relationships in response to another Trump term
Opinion: Recent discussions in Shanghai provide some insight into what’s likely to be on the table The post China likely to strengthen regional relationships in response to another Trump term appeared first on Newsroom. ...5 hours ago
- Nuclear winters know no borders
Opinion: The immediate horror of nuclear weapon explosions – the blinding flash, crushing blast wave, and radioactive inferno – is well documented.But what nuclear-armed nations either don’t grasp or won’t admit, is far more chilling: how their weapons could devastate even countries thousands of kilometres from any mushroom clouds.The collapse ...5 hours ago
- This week’s bestselling books – November 22
FICTION1 Kāwai: Tree of Nourishment by Monty Soutar (David Bateman, $39.99)Sample dialogue, all from one chapter:“That can’t be,” replied Taona doubtfully.“You were right. The pā is unnervingly quiet,” Taona murmured.“The Hākuwai,” Motukia breathed. “Our grandfathers told us they rarely saw the Hākuwai in daylight,” Motukia muttered.“Their fight would have been futile ...5 hours ago
- Burma the flying elephant
After about two and a half years of planning and waiting, New Zealand’s last elephant has moved to her new home at Monarto Safari Park in South Australia.Burma and her “human herd”, that is, her keepers, arrived last week, and she’s settling in well, according to Auckland Zoo’s Andrew Coers.“Something ...5 hours ago
- NZ’s membership of Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance in jeopardy
Senior ministers in the coalition suggested NZ’s membership will be re-evaluated if it restarts offshore oil and gas drilling The post NZ’s membership of Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance in jeopardy appeared first on Newsroom. ...5 hours ago
- Raw Politics: Six months in a leaky Bill
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon did not meet the Treaty Principles Bill hikoi crowd, sees “nothing” of merit in the Act-proposed law but the Parliament his Government dominates will spend six months debating a “divisive” measure.That’s because he has accepted there needs to be “aeration” of people’s views on the Treaty, ...5 hours ago
- Taken to the brink, Govt is now close to selling big Whakapapa ski field
Bidder Whakapapa Holdings walked away from the sales process last year, but says it’s now ‘95% there’ on a purchase agreement – so who blinked first? The post Taken to the brink, Govt is now close to selling big Whakapapa ski field appeared first on Newsroom. ...5 hours ago
- Watts nears a landmark deal on global carbon trading
A framework for global carbon trading under the Paris Agreement is finally nearing completion at COP29 in Baku, Azerbaijan after years of halting talks.Climate Change Minister Simon Watts is one of two ministers tasked by the COP29 hosts with landing a long-sought deal on Article 6 of the climate accord, ...5 hours ago
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Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Richard Marles is an ambitious man who hasn’t given up the dream of one day reaching the top job. But, despite being deputy prime minister, his profile is much lower than that of Treasurer Jim ...10 hours ago
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"Overwhelmingly, those people who die will be young Māori men," the spokesperson for People Against Prisons Aotearoa says. ...12 hours ago
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62% of respondents support the extension of the OIA to cover MPs’ spending, compared to just 13% opposed and 24% were unsure. ...12 hours ago - The House: Meanwhile, a week of passing law
The political week has been packed with worthy distractions, but all week Parliament has focused on passing new laws. Here are the highlights. ...13 hours ago
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It is not a matter of the Greens or NZF. Labour will need both plus Mana.com.
To form a government. That is the easy bit.
The hard bit is getting them to work together. Labour is already sniping at the greens.
Shane Jones potentially removes a lot of the sniping – if Labour are serious about working together. If they aren’t then people need to remember who helped the Nats to a third term.
+1
SJ no loss.
Key is genuinely scared of losing soft Nat votes to the Greens, and rightly so. The Greens have some good policies and some articulate capable people.
Just another reminder – the Nats are pushing Extreme Right policies, under a slick veneer of bland moderate pap. So they portray Labour and Green as ‘extreme’ when clearly they are not.
Unless Labour get off the back foot and start seriously scrapping with the Nats, their prospects are dismal in September. Until they do, any talk of coalition with this that or the other party is in dreamland.
“The Greens have some good policies and some articulate capable people.”
That may be so.
But there is more to life than eating lentils and being a depressant who take the negative.
….you mean Shane Jones was sniping at the Greens….not Cunliffe ( whose wife is an environmental lawyer)..or the rest of the Labour caucus
…agreed Labour will need both the Greens and NZF…thus far i have seen more swipes by Green supporters at NZF…not productive imo
….i thought Rob Salmond’s posting was very good
….imo if the Greens indicate that cannot work with NZF and vice versa and the whole Left win is put in jeopardy( both NZF and Greens have torpedoed each other in the past…and it cost Labour an election win)….. my vote will go to Mana-Int
…i left the Greens as a formal member after Norman sunk Winston 3 days out from an election over the Owen Glenn fiasco( he nicely finished off what Rodney Hide started, a vendetta to sink Winston and NZF) ….NZF failed to make the threshold and the Nats and John Key came in ….with disastrous consequences which we are still living with
What makes you think the GP can’t work with NZF/Peters?
“my vote will go to Mana-Int”
I hope you do the maths closer to the time. As it stands currently, unless Mana can raise its party vote up to above 1.6% then the party vote is wasted. If Mana picks up a second electorate seat, that percentage rises to 2.5% (approx, I don’t know how that works with the overhangs). By wasted vote, I mean your party vote won’t help the left win this particular election, which is the same as not voting.
“… both NZF and Greens have torpedoed each other in the past…and it cost Labour an election win)….. my vote will go to Mana-Int”
Can you supply a reference please?
As far as I can remember it was NZF that stuck a shiv into any Green ambitions in 2005, not the other way around.
The Greens have consistently stated that they can work with Winston; ’cause as far as the Greens in general are concerned (that I’ve spoken to) it’s all about policy, and there is a significant amount of overlap between Green policies and Winston rhetoric at the moment.
That said, every Green supporter I’ve spoken to does not trust Winston as far as he could be thrown because in the past he’s been quite willing to chuck away all his policies and positions just to get a title and extra pay that comes with it.
With regard to the realpolitik that Dr Norman played in 2008, re: Owen Glenn affair. You’re assuming that NZF wouldn’t have gone with National had he got in, and that’s was a big assumption.
Basically, for the Greens to deliver a Labour (led, coalition or whatever permutation) government in 2008, Norman had no choice. The fault lies with Labour not getting out its vote.
@ Naturesong
I am assuming Winston would have gone with Helen Clark/Labour had he got in as he had worked well with Labour and Helen Clark before…Winston/NZF not reaching the threshold by a few hundred votes ( actually more than what Act got…but they won a seat) ) ruined Labour’s coalition numbers/chances of re-election and John Key came in with NAct
….sure I agree with you Winston Peters destroyed the Greens chances of being in the cabinet in 2005…but that is not to deny that Norman shat on him from a great height ( as chair of a committee…reaching the personal conclusion that Peters was a liar or not to be trusted and this said for the public consumption) .. This was several days before a General Election!!!!!
…The Owen Glenn affaire was incidentally whipped up, if not set up, by NACT ……with Rodney Hide sniping at Peters for months …because they knew NACT would not get into power if NZF crossed the threshold and again worked with Helen Clark and Labour….(Incidentally Winston needed Glenn’s donation to pay off legal defamation costs…. ironically now so does Norman!)
(i cant be bothered finding references ….but it was clear as day to me at the time ….and I do know that a number of political scientists remarked upon it at the time)
As regards your statement “That said, every Green supporter I’ve spoken to does not trust Winston as far as he could be thrown because in the past he’s been quite willing to chuck away all his policies and positions just to get a title and extra pay that comes with it.”
….you obviously dont mix with the same Greens as I do ….one of whom I know has worked for the Greens but at the same time was a swinging voter and gave his vote to Winston/NZF
Really if Winston was such an opportunist without any ethics he would not have stood so staunchly against sale of Public State Owned Assets for so long….and he would probably have been leader of the National Party against the Neolibs….
Edit …ooops i meant
“Really if Winston was such an opportunist without any ethics he would not have stood so staunchly against sale of Public State Owned Assets for so long….and he would probably have been leader of the National Party”…finish …
also
“Incidentally Winston needed Glenn’s donation to pay off legal defamation costs… ironically now so does Norman… need to pay off defamation costs !”
This would be his stand against the sale of SOE’s like the Forestry Corporation of New Zealand Ltd and Winston pledge to: “hand back the cheque”?
And once in a coalition with the National Govt … crickets.
Yeah, he’s great with the rhetoric. With actually keeping his word, not so much.
I also remember a number of Labour MP’s putting the boot into Winston at the time, Sue Moroney springs to mind. So Winston would have chosen Labour?
At the time Norman made the comments, Winston was already a deadman walking.
well for me Mana-Int is looking an increasingly attractive option
…i wonder if others are feeling the same way?
…btw…are you sure Naturesong is not a Nactsong?…your antipathy towards Peters reminds me of NACT antipathy…the one thing NACT strategists would just love to do is drive a wedge between the Greens and Winston /NZF…and hence destroy a Labour coalition govt…seems like you are doing a good job here
Yeah, you’ve totally busted me.
I just come here to troll. National is the one for me.
I’m not sure it it’s the fiscal incompetence that attracts me, or maybe it’s their willingness to isolate and vilify sections of society in order to whip up latent fear of the “other” within the electorate.
Maybe it’s their authoritarian bent that led to the GCSB and TICS legislation and the police breaking into the Heralds offices before the last election.
Or even out and out attacks on the teaching profession. My Family has a long history of teaching, and there are several members of my family currently in the teaching profession, so you can probably imagine how impressed I am.
So my unequivocal and unthinking support for National is because of all that, but the clincher is that lingering smell of corruption that wafts from National governments.
Hmmm, mmm!!
Or maybe it’s just the massive and largely unnecessary debt they’ve saddled us with. There’s really too much to choose from.
/sarc off
I don’t hate Peters. I’ve simply watched his career over the last 30 years so am under no illusions as to what he’s about.
Watching him recently on Vote Chat I was impressed at how much overlap there was of his policy positions with published Green policy.
You would think that they could work together – But Winston has proved in the past to be quite happy to trade his party’s policy stances for the baubles of office.
That said, I’m happy to recognise the good things he’s done, Winebox Inquiry being one of his career highlights, (or lowlights depending on whether you judge success in standing strong against corruption in the face of adversity, or the Inquiry vindicating your accusations) among them.
I’ll go out on a limb here and suggest that it’s likely there are other voters around who feel the same way.
I would love to see him as speaker – it’s a reoccurring daydream I have that never fails to bring a smile to my face.
Oh, that would be nasty wouldn’t it 😈
Ok accept your points……but i dont think Peters will be wanting Speaker ….more like Minister of Foreign Affairs…at which he excelled
…”I was impressed at how much overlap there was of his policy positions with published Green policy.”….agreed!
….this time they should get along….this time they have to get along!…and we have to encourage it , otherwise NACT will be using any perceived divisions as the thin edge of the wedge and they will be trying to split apart any Left coalition before it has even formed
He did make a decent Minister of Foreign Affairs, but I don’t think he will want it this time.
He’s been there and done that.
And he’s getting old, this may be his last go around, so he’s going to want something that leaves a legacy, it’ll be domestic, and something that he can really make his mark so that when he’s gone people will remember him with fondness, one of those ” .. yeah, he was a good one, they don’t make them like that anymore” kinda politicians.
The positive is that I’m pretty sure he knows that while National will offer him anything he likes if it means that they get in for another 3 years, there are going to be a number of sectors which will be a smoking ruin by the end of a National 3rd term.
That will taint any good he might achieve.
Labour can actually offer him a spot where, together with Labour and Green policies, there will be visible progress.
In the meantime, the broader left should praise him when he announces anything that is good policy wise, and be ruthlessly critical when he puts a foot out of line.
Cunliffes recent handling of leak of the Greens offer was inexcusable.
Peters is a formidable politician, remember he was Muldoon’s apprentice. He is able to gain great leverage from the smallest of opportunities.
Should Labour get enough votes to court Peters after the election, was it necessary to ensure that he was the only one who had any leverage, and do it publically?
People should always keep in the back of their mind that unless he states otherwise; a vote for Winston, a vote for National.
Btw, Naturesong is an anagram constructed from an inside joke at a flat I ran in sydney 15 years ago.
I’ve been using it as an online nom de plume ever since.
If you knew me personally, you would likely “get it”, but as you don’t, you won’t.
Just consider it to be another random pseudonym and try not to read to much into it.
Are you a ginge by any chance?
“my vote will go to Mana-Int”
Yep clucking mad !
fuck no …not one of the mad not Peteys…for Petes sake!
What will you do if it looks likely that a party vote for Mana will be wasted?
Doesn’t Cunliffe’s wife represent oil and gas companies?
[lprent: And? What is your argument? She is an environmental lawyer. Lawyers represent clients in their area of expertise. If any company needs an environmental lawyer then the Oil and Gas industry needs them the most.
This comment appears to be just some stupid trolling attacking a politicians family member for their profession and not for any other particular reason.
You can and have done better (which is why you didn’t get a ban). I suggest that you do in the future. I don’t like people making pointless cut’n’paste lines. Argue what you like. But make it your words with an argument – not those of some frigging mindless parrot making insinuations. ]
The equation is very simple. Labour should form the government with NZ First. Greens have nowhere else to go. They will support Labour government from outside on confidence and supply. Mana will also be the same. Labour can get National support in things like FTA etc when both Greens and NZ First oppose. Don’t ever bring the Greens into the Government. Labour will never ever be able to govern again. Follow Helen Clark’s brilliant methodology and keep the Greens outside the house in the backyard.
I don’t think it would be wise to assume the Greens will meekly follow whatever Labour decides to do, as already stated in the post above. Especially if they feel that they’re being taken for granted.
And then again, there are some of us who would definitely prefer a ‘clean’ Labour/Green coalition to one that included Winston, although in practical terms, it has been done overseas:
http://www.gaynz.com/articles/publish/31/article_14922.php
I find remarks from some political commentators that a Labour/Green coalition would be unstable or unworkable either woefully ignorant or highly selective in terms of their awareness of overseas centre-left social democratic/green coalitions that have worked well. In Germany, Social Democrat Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder led a successful and effective Social Democrat/Green coalition (1998-2005) for two Bundestag terms. In Finland, Social Democrat Prime Minister Paavo Lipponen’s government included Cabinet minister representation from both the Green League and Finnish People’s Party (akin to New Zealand First), so it might be interesting to focus on how that worked (1995-2002). Iceland saw (out lesbian) Prime Minister Johanna Sigurdasdottir lead a ‘red/green’ coalition in power for four years (2009-2013). There are therefore ample examples of functional and stable social democratic/green coalitions in place within Western Europe should anyone wish to consult them for precedents. In Canada, the centrist Liberal Party and Green Party of Canada also have an informal ‘red/green’ relationship in the House of Commons. I would suggest that instead of unsubstantiated and subjective opinion, television news and current affairs programmes research these prior instances, as indeed should Labour and the Greens themselves. Germany, Finland and Iceland suggest that a red/green coalition is stable and workable.
What about ‘traffic light coalitions’ that might conceivably include Labour, the Greens and New Zealand First? These have existed overseas. In particularly, the Czech Republic may offer some interesting insights into how this might unfold. Rather like New Zealand First, the Czech Peoples Party is predominantly targeted at elderly voters and its political existence is marginal, depending on whether or not it is acting as a protest vote or taking advantage of the cyclical weakness of one of the major Czech political parties. However, in Denmark, the Danish Peoples Party has aligned itself with the centre-right Conservatives and Liberals in government over the last decade, which might hearten New Zealand First (and National?), or not. Similarly, in 2007, the Polish Peoples Party formed a coalition with the centre-right Civic Platform, the major winner in that year’s national election. However, again, in Slovakia, its Peoples Party formed a coalition with the centre-left Social Democrats (2006-2010). Thus, if Winston Peters chose to play a more constructive role in current New Zealand electoral politics, he would have precedents on both sides of his prospective balancing act. The Czech Republic and Slovakia offer one set of examples, while Denmark and Poland offer the other option. However, the Czech Republic seems to be the only example of a ‘traffic light’ coalition arrangement. Winston could go either way, judging from the behaviour of his counterparts and closest political equivalents elsewhere.
Would it work here? In the interests of clarity, I’ve provided a list of useful resources in this context.
Recommended:
Charles Lees: The Red/Green Coalition in Germany: Politics, Personalities and Power: Manchester: Palgrave: 2000.
Werner Reutter: Germany on the Road to Normalcy: Politics and Policies of the Red/Green Federal Government: 1998-2002Manchester: Palgrave: 2004
Franko Zelko and Caroline Brinkman: Green Parties: Reflections on the First Three Decades: Washington DC: Heinrich Boll Foundation: 2006.
Elizabeth Bomberg: Green Parties and Politics in the European Community: London: Routledge: 1998.
Tad Shull: Redefining Red and Green: Ideology and Strategy in European Politics: Albany: State University of New York Press: 1999
I agree. Especially after another (short) week of Labour missteps, Prasad, Little and now the Shane Jones bombshell.
The two most competent parties by a long way are National and Greens. A coalition between them, with about a 40/20 balance of power, would make an interesting mix of experience with a necessary nudge towards changes we need.
🙄
“The two most competent parties by a long way are National and Greens. A coalition between them, with about a 40/20 balance of power, would make an interesting mix of experience with a necessary nudge towards changes we need.”
The GP would get thrashed for 3 years and then find itself at the next election without a membership (and the GP doesn’t get to exist without its members).
As always, it’s hard to know if PG is pushing an agenda to undermine the left, or if he really is that stupid to think that the GP would go with National or that the GP could function within a National led alliance. But it does reinforce my suspicion that PG hasn’t read much GP policy.
Plus what TRP said.
+100…the Green Party would NOT be so stupid as to go with National…they are diametrically opposed….NACT sees the Greens as their biggest enemy…a coalition with NACT….even the serious suggestion of one from the Greens ……would destroy the Green Party vote
“or if he really is that stupid”
PG is an attention seeking dip shit Weka nothing more and nothing less.
Pete – I refer you to the ConDems coalition in the UK. The Lib Dems thought they could make it work for them. Their support has been reamed – do you think there might be lessons from that?
There’s always lessons that can be learned. Note that the UK haven’t had to learned to do MMP. Greens and National have already worked together to a small extent.
Something I’ve learned is that competence and being well organised are major positives.
I’d go for that rather than trying to hitch a new Green wagon to a train wreck.
Great idea, Pete. You could start a party and NAct could gift you a seat by running someone even more useless than you in the seat……….oh wait a minute…..
Prasad has been forgotten already, I have no idea what Little is supposed to have done, and with Sealord Jones, Murray McCully’s loss is Labour’s gain.
I think the position the Maori Party now find themselves in would be enough to put the intelligent Greens of getting into bed with National.
Please consider retreating to a monastery for quite a while or somesuch so we don’t have to be exposed to this utter twaddle. Alas, I suppose you are too egotistical, and actually think your demented ramblings are significant.
I agree.
The Gnats would make a decent junior partner in the coalition, and the practice of working constructively on sustainable growth initiatives would do a lot to redeem their image as anti-democratic, brownfield, poor economic performers with a narcisscistic determination to hold on to power. They could learn for instance to answer questions in parliament, because not doing so is disrespectful to the public, their employer.
I think though that many New Zealanders would rubbish the idea of a Gnat/Green alliance: loopy fascists, and neo-liberal nut-jobs are probably the kindest epithets that National routinely attracts, their hidebound refusal to print money when all our major trading partners were doing so was the height of fiscal irresponsibility, and they remain unrepentant in spite of IMF scolding about the resulting overvalued NZ dollar.
It would be a great learning experience – but I’m not even sure National will reach 20%. Maybe they could sit on the crossbenches…
As for the Nats, hey, Colin Craig has already been humming and hahing about occupying the cross-benches if he’s elected, and given the Conservative Party’s radical anti-Treaty views, I can’t really see him working alongside Te Ureroa Flavell, likely to be the only Maori Party MP. And it would only take four thousand votes worth of tactical voting to dispose of ACT and United Future.
‘Twould seem the centre-right has a far more precipitous juggling act than we do.
Enjoyed the last sentence of course Cunliffe wont rule anything or anyone out his desperation is plain to see to everyone although he cant be a complete idiot as is proven by keeping the Green Party clowns at arms length
The very definition of desperation is getting into bed with Colin “Moon Landings” Craig.
Lol….i dont believe the Americans landed on the moon…it is all horse shit!….they jumped about in the Nevada Desert in their space jump suits!… and went home and congratulated themselves for having trumped the Russians with a cunning trick!
….and then laughed all their way around the world making money on the public circuit, giving little talks to the Rotary morons and young scientists….
….the evidence is conclusive to us Truther Chooks ….they havent been back to the moon since and there are no American hotels on the moon
Colin is right on this one…but i wont be voting for him because …..(i wont say, just in case i get sued like Russel the Red )
So all of NASA was involved in a cover up of epic proportions ?
You really are clucking mad !
oh no…go away!……you mad thing…. not Petey!…i bet you wear a space suit too!
I think that was sarcasm
It was almost certainly Jones who leaked. It was another win for Labour’s right wing and he couldn’t help crowing about it. Such a losing strategy, and oddly it seems he knows that. The only way to beat a strong National govt is to offer a clear alternative, not just tell the electorate you’ll cobble something together later. I honestly don’t think Jones wanted to win this year and having now completed his work undermining Cunliffe, he’s decided to clear out, adding to the damage by looking like a rat jumping ship. And this is the man some thought would be a good leader?
I’m a Green voter, so the choice has always been clear for me and never moreso than now. If you want real change, make the Green Party as big as possible, because even if by some miracle a new govt forms, it is clear it will be in spite of Labour’s poor political management. And if it doesn’t happen this year, we need an even bigger Green Party going into 2017.
QFT
If Cunliffe was wise . He would have accepted the green offer And formed a coalition. He didn’t because he is dreaming that labour and NZF can form a government. Simply in the eyes of labour. The greens are the last cab on the rank.
I am surprised why the Greens even try and do a deal with labour.
The Greens got shafted by Clark at the 2005 election. They will be shafted again
this election.
The silver lining to all the bickering within the coalition of losers is they stay out
of power.
He didn’t have to accept a green coaalition, all he had to do was say that they (Labour) would be looking at what policies the Greens and Labour have that overlap and do a couple of joint releases, and left it at that.
But he and McCarten fucked it up, so it looked like they just going to take the Greens support for granted (12-15% of the voting electorate!!!), and happy to give Winston all the bargaining power (who thought that strategy would ever end well for anyone other than Winston?)
I actually get the impression that, if it were purely his decision to make, Cunliffe would far prefer a coalition wit the Greens than with NZF.
What would have been “wise” about accepting the Green’s offer? In terms of politics and votes, Labour would have gained nothing from it and quite possibly lost votes. Whereas by not accepting it, Labour is more likely to gain votes and not lose any.
Labour cannot afford to make things easy for the Greens.
The Greens are clearly the only party with the power to destroy Labour in the long run.
If every election the ratio of Green to Labour votes increases, the long-term outcome is inevitable.
What’s wrong with having a co-deputy PM. The role of deputy PM isn’t constitutionally defined (we haven’t always had one) and there is no reason not to have co-deputies.
In fact, we can have joint prime ministers and will do when the Greens become the largest party and form a government, probably with Labour as a support party.
Apart from whether or not they will be co-deputies, it was great that Turei pi5ched herself for the deputy role. Too often the media, and others, treat Norman as the de facto leader. I recall recently some research was published that shows women are less likely to ask for promotions than men, and less likely to be selected for psoitions of authority. Men, for whatever reason, are more confident in putting their hands up, and they are more liekly to be judged by others as suitable for positions of authority.
Turei has been a strong co-leader, and advocate for people in poverty and on low incomes. I would be very happy to see her as deputy PM.
It often gets reported that Dr Norman is the leader of the Green party, with Turei as an afterthought.
But pretty much every Green party member I’ve spoken to, would choose Turei to fill the Dep PM spot, if the Greens were able to swing it.
Just quietly; Turei is currently #1 on the list (we’ll see if she keeps that spot after voting finishes at the end of the month).
“It often gets reported that Dr Norman is the leader of the Green party”
I’ve only ever seen him referred to as “co-leader”. Please do provide some examples.
Running off my memory and recalling the number of times during interviews that I’ve seen where been thinking “Hey! It’s not just him you plonker, there are two co-leaders”.
I suspect it also comes from media framing of stories. For instance the Paddy Gower interview where he starts with asking if the Greens would try for the deputy PM spot, then after Dr Norman answers immediatly starts pushing the line that Dr Norman wants to be Deputy PM, completely ignoring that he is ther representing the Green party, not just himself. Story runs for the next few days; Dr Norman wants to be Deputy PM.
You’re right, can’t find explicit examples. It’s the framing of the news that completley ignores how the Green party functions. It’s not the single heroic guy charging forward leading, and the party will follow and do what he says.
It’s actually the whole party, the MP’s are just the tip of the spear.
Norman has often been described as “de facto” leader of the Greens and/or the opposition.
For example, here on NewstalkZB:
<a href=http://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/editorial/273424/cunliffes-first-big-test’>And here on ODT:
And here on ODT:
Thanks Karol, I knew they were out there =D
A point that’s been made Shane Jones’ exit is that it might weaken Labour’s hand with Winston. Jones got on well with Peters and could have been a valuable conduit between Labour and NZ First in any coalition negotiations.
Same applies for Labour and the Maori Party if they get to play a significant part post-election.
Only by the RWNJs and their pets in the MSM. In reality, Jones leaving Labour has made Labour stronger.
I don’t think any number of ‘valuable conduits’ will matter in the end if Winston is given the kingmaking position. I think Winston will be Winston, and no number of BFFs within National or Labour are going to make him do anything which doesn’t perfectly suit him.
Agreed we should also ponder this may be Winstons swansong so we might be dealing with Martin who seems to be the only possible leader for NZ First
All very well but no matter what Labour or Green members or voters feel you have ignored the power that Winston would wield. Labour plus Greens you must admit will surely be less than 50% and so there cannot be a Leftist government without Winston and co taking them over the 50% threshold. Winston can then dictate terms. Failure to placate him could mean he could side with National. Winston hates the Greens. Winston has been in government. The Greens have never been in government, Winston would like to maintain that. The Cunliffe would have no option but to agree. It does not matter if the Greens have 8,9,10,11,12,13 ,14 15, 16 MP’s. They would just be confidence and supply voting fodder.
This reality poses a problem for the genuine floating intelligent voter. If Winston First do not get their vote then they may not reach 5% and thus National redistributed vote rises by at least 2%.
If they vote Green they would see the Greens excluded as the price of Winston’s support.
If they vote Labour then they would not get a Labour/Greens government.
Given this dilemma I suspect many will vote for National or simply not vote.
The post above states “And I think the Greens need to be taken a bit more seriously.”
That is just the plaintive bleating of someone who knows that The Cunliffe needs to win to keep his job and so will shaft the Greens in a heartbeat if that’s what it takes. It don’t look good for the Greens.
” If Winston First do not get their vote then they may not reach 5% and thus National redistributed vote rises by at least 2%.”
There is no such thing as “National redistributed vote”.
How it plays out in practice, is that the largest bloc in parliament benefits the most from ‘wasted’ party votes that are won by parties that subsequently don’t win seats in Parliament.
This means if National got 43% and Greens/Labour got 45% and NZFirst got 4.9%, Greens/Labour would actually get a bigger benefit from it than National would.
Nanthanide you are wrong wrong wrong. If National gets say 47% which is less than current polling and less than 2011 and NZF get 4.9% then the NZF votes are ‘wasted’ and the redistributed in proportion. Simple arithmetic 47% of 4.9% is another 2.3% to National taking them to 49.3%. I claimed that National would gain at least 2%. For this not to be true then the National vote under such circumstances would have to fall to less than 41%. If you think that will happen I have a bridge to sell you and if you give me your bank details a Nigerian prince will deposit 20 billion dollars in your account.
You’re making up things that don’t exist.
If National wins 47% of the party vote, then their final tally is 47% of the party vote. There is no magic redistribution of party vote if some party fails to get over either threshold to gain a seat in parliament.
Now you may like to say National end up with 49.3% of parliamentary seats, but that also is wrong, because seats aren’t fractional and it is further complicated by electorate seats. Either you have a full seat, or you don’t. The exact number of seats is determined by the Sainte-Laguëuë which can produce quirky-looking results: if in 2011 National had won either Epsom or Ohariu, they would have ended up with 60 seats in support of asset sales, but if they had won or (as they did) lost both of Epsom and Ohariu they would (and did) end up with 61 seats in support of asset sales.
Isn’t the line you lot are supposed to continually repeat is how bad the Greens were last time they were in government?
Nobody ‘must admit’ anything. We’re still five months out from the election and it would only take a small swing one way or the other to completely change the picture.
Once again I see a lot of people assuming that the Greens will just quietly sit back and rubber-stamp everything a Labour/NZF government wants to push through. I really doubt that’s going to happen.
And if the Greens don’t play ball Labour could have to look to National for support (which won’t be hard as it appears National own a section on the Labour party now), now a percentage of Labour voters may be able to hold their noses, but a lot of them will see this as treachery! So Labour will pay for this in time.
What else are they going to do, not give confidence and supply to Labour / NZ First thus ensuring another term of Key, English, etc?? That would be extremely immature and irresponsible. I think that there may be many voters out there who might be thinking about voting Labour instead of National, but are scared back to National or even to not voting when they think about the Green party being in government.
I don’t have any actual evidence for this, it is just a gut feeling I get from conversations I’ve had and observations I’ve made..
“What else are they going to do”
Perhaps form an alliance with the Greens now, I really don’t see what Labour are so scared of the two parties agree on most things or is it that deep down Labour are just National in Drag.
According to Karl Mannheim, while ideological systems are necessarily distortions, each offering a partial and necessarily self-interested view of social reality, objectivity concerning these Weltanschauung are the preserve of the socially unattached intelligentsia, who alone can engage in disciplined and dispassionate enquiry because they have no economic interests of their own.
-in Heywood, Political Ideologies 3rd Ed. 2003.
anyway, there is a drift towards social conservatism, including the prediction of 1.2M eligible voters aged over 65 by 2036.
Winston Peters (and NZ First) has taken a lot of stick.
http://www.gmi.co.nz/news/1021/opposition-to-immigration-why-let-the-arguments-get-in-the-way.aspx
and not helped by selective journalism
http://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/reviews-consultation/savingsworkinggroup/pdfs/swg-report-jan11.pdf
Savings Working Group
Crazy that Labour even entertain an alliance with the Greens.
Labour supposedly stand for the working class.
The elitist Greens want to shut down manufacturing and mining and and investment and everything that allows the working class to get jobs and make money.
The reality is Labour and the Greens mix like oil & water.
When is someone in Labour going to wake up to how idiotic and unworkable this alliance is???
If Labour wasn’t led by a bunch of lawyers, pen pushers and academics things might be different. More real.
Labour would see an instant increase in votes if they turned their backs on the elitist Greens.
“Greens want to shut down manufacturing and mining and and investment and everything that allows the working class to get jobs and make money.”
That line seems boringly familiar. Read their economic/jobs policies lately?
Redbaiter is telling lies. The GP want to replace some kinds of jobs with others, because they want those jobs to be sustainable into the future. If they wanted to protect the environment at the expense of employment, why would they have a work and employment policy that promoted job creation?
https://www.greens.org.nz/policysummary/work-and-employment-policy-summary
https://www.greens.org.nz/policy/work-and-employment-policy
That’s outright lies. The Greens want to increase our ability to support ourselves sustainably and that means mining and manufacturing – just not to the level to keep the worthless rich.
More lies. The Greens and Labour aren’t allies. In fact, the Labour party rejected the offer.
Blinglish: lifetime Bureaucrat.
Key: lifetime Bureaucrat.
Brownlee: lifetime Bureaucrat.
Of course, you don’t support National as they’re too namby pamby socialist but you won’t find any doers in any hard right-wing party. All you’ll find there is yes men who kowtow to the rich and you won’t find any real doers there either – just bludging scum.
Considering the polls indicate that 70% of the Labour membership want an alliance with the Greens in the labour party did as you say then we could expect that the Labour party would decrease by 70% and the Greens would grow by those same people. The votes would probably go the same way.
Er, Key was a money trader, not a bureaucrat.
What lanth said
Ok, fine, he wasn’t always a bureaucrat. At some point he was a gambler.
Wasn’t Brownlee a woodwork teacher? I think Blinglish did actually do some farming before he entered politics
Brownlee was a terribly useless woodwork teacher, by all accounts.
I am not telling lies. All over the net you can find the truth about the Greens and their job destroying policies.
1) The industries they call sustainable can only survive with massive taxpayer subsidies. When the subsidies run out, the industries die. They’re not “sustainable”.
2) The drain on the economy as a result of these subsidies crushes investment in real areas of economic development, meaning the loss of thousands of real jobs. Objective studies show that for every so called “Green” job created, many real jobs are lost.
The Labour Party if its interested in the working class has no business being in the thrall of the bunch of loony misguided job destroying religious elitists that are the Green Party.
1.) You obviously have no idea what sustainable means. HINT: It’s got nothing to do with money and profit making is its exact opposite
2.) Actually, the studies show the exact opposite
To be honest, I really couldn’t give a fuck about the Labour Party – it’s as much as a dinosaur as you.
Can you please provide us an example that supports either of your statements?
That is, can you please provide an example where Greens policies have done what you ascribe to them in points 1 & 2 . (only policies presented by NZ Greens are relevant of course)
Especially interested in seeing these objective studies you refer to …
Ha ha, thanks for the laff. Greeen policies that have failed miserably in every other part of the world are magically going to work in NZ?
The Labour Party are crazy to get mixed up with you loons. Mostly just brainwashed uneducated kids.
At least Winston is an adult.
But if Labour dumped the Greens and joined the rest of NZ in wiping them off the political table, they’d at least have an equal share of the vote with National.
So, can’t answer the question – not surprised as all you ever do is talk out your arse.
I just find it mind boggling that anyone would be so blinkered as to claim such studies don’t exist. Its as if the old Berlin Wall surrounds your mind.
Yes, there are no sustainable businesses in New Zealand. There are no sustainable farms, nor vineyards, nor even any dwellings. Not a single one.
It’s astonishing that The Greens could be so stupid as to suggest that a business model that doesn’t exist already, no sirree, could be promoted here.
Riparian planting, for example, is not only not resulting in higher per-acre yields, no-one is even bothering with it. That’s how we can tell that sustainable business practices must be sheer baloney. Yes indeedy.
Well, if they exist you should be able to find some as I found one that contradicts what you said and can, in fact, find studies that contradict nearly everything you say.
Well, if that is so, it would point to the truth that no matter what publicly well known study I referenced you would find it unreliable.
No sane person would bother, especially seeing as your implication is that such studies don’t exist.
Just makes me wonder once again where leftists are in relation to what’s happening in the real world.
Of course I would – popularity doesn’t make it right (IME, it makes it wrong). Now, if it was peer-reviewed I’d take a look at it.
You haven’t produced any so it’s obvious that they don’t. You’re the one who made a claim so that makes it your responsibility to provide the proof of that claim.
We’re in the real world, it’s you mad dog RWNJs that aren’t.
Just staggering to me that you would insist that they are hard to find or do not exist.
Just go to Google or any search engine and type in “true cost of green jobs”.
That will be a $50 consulting fee for advice that you should have known.
Please donate it to the http://semperfifund.org/
If it was so easy, you’d have done it.
No, its just that I am usually unwilling to help anyone too lazy to help themselves.
So, that would be you to lazy and unwilling to help yourself. Got it.
Redbaiter’s point about the economic cost of “green” (aka “subsidised”) economic activity is uncontentious, and self evident. You should get that from a simple perusal of the Green policies on their website. Most of them are job destroying and wealth diminishing.
Jo Nova has been writing on this stuff for years:
http://joannenova.com.au/2013/06/the-data-is-in-more-green-jobs-means-less-real-ones/#more-28909
Or this from the Institute of Energy Research
“Each Green Job Obama Created Cost $11 Million”
http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/each-green-job-obama-created-cost-11-million/
I could go all day. The reason is simple – what the Green are calling for is SUBSIDIES. The talk of the great green nirvana is BS. If there were these stacks of opportunities in NZ the investment would be there. So you get stuff like this from the Green Party Policies:
“Investigate preferential tax treatment for green technologies, low emission vehicles and other sustainable practices.”
i.e a subsidy
“Make it easier for businesses to invest in appropriate technology and research.”
i.e a subsidy – I guess the Government will decide what is “appropriate”
“Providing financial encouragement for the adoption of new technologies”
i.e a subsidy
Subsidies impose economic costs.
But luckily, it looks like we are safe from having such policies tested in the real world, at least for another three years.
Every industry out there started with government subsidies. Many, such as the oil industry, still get them. Saying ZOMG, SUBSIDIES!!!! isn’t a reason not to do them especially when we have to move away from fossil fuels.
The thing that you just don’t get is that the green jobs will still be there in 100 years, the mining and fracking won’t be as everything would have been mined. Now which is the real job that creates real wealth?
“The Labour Party if its interested in the working class has no business being in the thrall of the bunch of loony misguided job destroying religious elitists that are the Green Party.”
The Labour party came close to having a Leader brought and paid for by the National party for fuck sake and you Red B think a Labour/Green alliance will be bad for the Labour party, what a joke!
The Labour Party need the Greens more than ever now sunshine and a smart move for Cunliffe would be to form an alliance with the greens ASAP to show the Labour party supporters it isn’t completely rotten to the core, I can see plenty of Labour supporters jump ship over this Red and you know which ship they will be jumping on.
I once had an Morris Minor and it seemed to function best when both the radiator and sump were a mixture of oil and water. It went on for bloody years including weekly trips between Wellington and Auckland. An oil and water mix kept its running costs down – it just seemed to be the viscosity that made the difference – thick sludge in the sump, and somewhat thinner in the radiator.
Morris Minors are extinct.
Like Labour’s working class connections.
They might be extinct but it proved the point that in certain circumstances – oil and water do indeed mix
Chemically they do not mix. They may form an emulsion however.
Nothing wrong with an emulsion – I’d vote for that as long as it doesn’t have a pallid blue shade to it
In a world of corruption those most feared are the trustworthy.
The Greens have shown, beyond anything else, that they stand by their word.
The Greens have shown, beyond anything else, that they stand by their word.
………
But they are only green on the outside and that is false labelling. Their blending of social justice and biology requires a discourse akin to a fundamental religion explaining Adam and Eve.
For example:
https://www.greens.org.nz/press-releases/greens%E2%80%99-population-policy-misinterpreted
I thought PG was the epitome of meaninglessness here but you just managed to surpass him.
so that is your best shot at explaining the (phoney-baloney) Green Party blend of social justice and biology?
You made a meaningless statement and then linked to something that Keith Locke had said as if it related to what you previously said when no such link exists. And as if that proved that they don’t stick by their word.
The context being a welfare state.
clever jh
National, Labour, Green have one thing in common, they are pro-immigration. The media mob has successfully informed the public that all the arguments are done and dusted. The world is looked at through the lense of social justice rather than biology (except climate change but that too is a social justice issue).
Making sense of your comment is hurting my brain. What has biology got to do with immigration?
Edit: Oh, I see, it has to do with earlier comments above about birth control and immigration.
Making sense of your comment is hurting my brain. What has biology got to do with immigration?
…
which comment are you referring to?
Your comment was out of sequence. On reflection it looks to be part of an earlier thread above. Although, I think your linakges between the Green party, immigration, biology etc is a bit all over the place.
The problem I see with immigration policy as it now stands, is that there is more free movement of money, and people with a lot of money, than of workers and/or people looking for work.
It is particularly the relatively free movement internationally of the activities of powerful corporations that is doing the most damage to society and the environment.
The problem I see with immigration policy as it now stands, is that there is more free movement of money, and people with a lot of money, than of workers and/or people looking for work.
……
do we need workers? if so for what (the construction industry has grown enormously since 2006)?
http://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/research-policy/wp/2014/14-10
Migration and Macroeconomic
Performance in New Zealand:
Theory and Evidence
Julie Fry
New Zealand Treasury Working Paper 14/10
Should we all try to be Japan (losing it’s crown to China) or Singapore (on a trading nexus)?
I’m more concerned with being able to maintain a robust welfare system, which is simply not viable in the long term with relaxed immigration
National, Labour, Green have one thing in common, they are pro-immigration.
[that isn’t hard to prove]
The media mob has successfully informed the public that all the arguments are done and dusted.
[I base that on a lack of media reporting of counter argument]
The world is looked at through the lense of social justice rather than biology (except climate change but that too is a social justice issue).
[I’m referring to a paradigm that sees world issues as human rights issues rather than basic biology (population, gene, thermodynamics, evolutionary psychology). I presume this reflects the academic pursuits of many journalists and politicians?
Your terms are used pretty loosely. Putting paragraph spacing between them, doesn’t make them any more meaningful – and adding some big words at the end clarifies nothing.
For instance, “Pro immigration” is a bit meaningless. Those parties also have policies limiting immigration in various ways, and promoting certain criteria for immigrants to meet. For instance, Green policy.
The media can be skewed on the way it reports immigration issues – but it does not tend to promote open unrestricted immigration.
For instance, “Pro immigration” is a bit meaningless. Those parties also have policies limiting immigration in various ways, and promoting certain criteria for immigrants to meet. For instance, Green policy
….
So the Greens have made an about turn?
https://www.greens.org.nz/press-releases/greens-counter-peters-welcoming-immigration-policy
http://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/research-policy/wp/2014/14-10
So we have had a deliberate policy of population increase but I haven’t heard much from the Greens or Labour on that.
we have had a million new citizens with a claim to the NZ landmass and 80% of population growth has been due to non NZ citizens (when you take out NZ’s leaving).
The Greens are about keeping the population level to what is sustainable, environmentally and socially. So what do you have against immigrants if they contribute to NZ society positively, and are environmentally sustainable?
I repeat, the biggest damage is done by foreign corporates that drain off our resources for their own benefits, resulting in decreasing wages and infrastructure.
The Greens are also about upskilling the NZ workforce, and providing jobs for people who are already here.
The Greens are about keeping the population level to what is sustainable, environmentally and socially. So what do you have against immigrants if they contribute to NZ society positively, and are environmentally sustainable?
………….
It is significant that construction drives manufacturing and:
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11160225
Like Melbourne Auckland is growing on (unsustainable) population growth.
http://artsonline.monash.edu.au/cpur/melbourne-a-parasite-city/
the tourist industry isn’t sustainable our main industries don’t benefit form returns to scale.
What’s more the evidence for benefits from population growth is “asymmetrical” as we have already had 20 years of rapid population growth with no improvements in GDP per capita.
I wish parties would stop using the word sustainability. The greens seem to be the worst culprits but all of the major parties prattle on about ‘sustainable economic growth’ and so on. Plus they all want more immigration, they just differ in the who, how and what for. Well they all need to wake up, as do many on this forum as to what sustainability involves.
The first law of sustainability:
Population growth and/or growth in the consumption of resources CANNOT be sustained.
Taking that law into account, economic growth as we know it relies completely and entirely upon ever increasing consumption of resources. This needs an ever increasing population to consume those resources. Therefore economic growth (as we know it) is not sustainable.
It doesn’t matter which side of the political divide you sit on or how clever you are around resource management, based upon the above law and under our current economic and monetary system, economic growth is not sustainable. The system as it stands will crash entirely, that is a mathematical certainty based upon the exponential function. What we need is political leaders, regardless of party, with the will to start thinking about and acting upon the radical changes needed to our economic system if we are to avoid economic disaster on an unprecedented scale.
why does pete geroge always post here about a party he doesn’t belong to.
doesn’t national have any policys or is he just a snivelling sneak?
Yes!!!
all the petes and not petes are from the dark side imo…they have crawled up out of the undergrowth…add Pop to that as well
We are all paid up servants of the illuminati, who are the driving force behind the banksters those who seek to cover up the truth about 9/11, vaccination, chem trails and the moon landings.
well this could be quite True
Chooky I am your father……. bock urk !
that proves you ARE mad (btw i am trying not to talk to you)
You are just a prat, really. Paid or unpaid, I don’t care.
But your views support the powerful against the weak and I do care about that.
Rrrrrrrrrrave on Randal
They have policies they want us to talk about.
Policies that benefit the 1% tend not to be very popular
That’s why they focus on personality politics and do everything to distract folk with celebrity nonsense and sport.
Sadly an increasingly dumbed down population falls for it.
The Romans Emperors worked out the trick of bread and circuses.
Let’s think about that statement, that Greens have no power. Imagine for a moment Banks and Dunne suddenly telling Key they will force an election if he doesn’t give them something politically unsaleable, knighthoods with perks. What would Key do? Well Labour wouldn’t equally want to be held over the barrel, so would also been keen to come to an understanding with National and have two MPs abstain, in return for when Labour are in government National returning the favor if a minority party got too powerful.
So the idea that Winston Peters could over sell, and Labour-Green or National in government do a abstaining deal isn’t that unworkable. Its call compromise.
Why isn’t this talked about. Well National wants to go far-right off some of the nonsense of ACT, and wants to shrift right of center off some of UF’s nonsense (asset sales). But both Banks and Dunne know this and wouldn’t push the nuclear button.
So it follows, why would National want Peters to have all that control over them either. Peter knows this, and so whoever he works with it will be qualified.
So then the question becomes, why were the Greens kept out of the last term of Clark. Well I can think of a few reasons. Voices in the Labour party like Shane Jones. Voices in the Greens who know what a monster a turd term is. And the usual patsies of Banks, Dunne and Peters to blame for the break up.
As a Green voter I dont care whether in or out, just not in awith a third term National party.
We heat homes with windmills now, the politics of Green economies is the only pragmatic,
sustainable and resilient way to run an economy. The idea there won’t be growth is entirely
delusional since all economies need grow to over come inflation else the government collapses,
and in fact the step change from petrol to alternatives is hugely costly and will mean opportunties
for the free market to make heaps of money. Oops, did I just say the Greens were more free marketers than ACT and National. Well of course they are, ACT-NAT want to maintain welath of the wealthiest against the prevailing weathering of a free market. Everyone else knows the GFC was due to the Green wave of petroleum peak, financial centralizing wealth and pollution crisis’s that stymie free markets.
Get it, Green economics are not just the only option growth option, they are also the free markets choice of future looking economy(GFC). Blue Green, Keys attempt to get in bed with the Greens, its all too obvious. So, lets give Shane a round of applause, his anti-green sentiment is now smear all over the National brand, and will harm his future political prospects as Green become bedded in as a staple of our economy.