Sometimes explaining is not losing

Written By: - Date published: 8:03 am, July 18th, 2019 - 98 comments
Categories: climate change, Environment, greens, julie anne genter, making shit up, national, same old national, spin, transport, you couldn't make this shit up - Tags:

I must admit always having major reservations about Stacey Kirk’s commentary.  It is probably because I cannot recall the last time that I agreed with something she said.  Critical analysts will annoy me occasionally, anti left partisan analysts will annoy me all of the time.

Her latest article is more annoying than many.  Basically because she engages in no analysis whatsoever of the merits or otherwise of a policy but celebrates National’s rather disingenuous attacks and then criticises Julie Anne Genter for trying to counter National’s spin with reality.

The background is the Government’s announced proposal to make the country’s vehicle fleet more fuel efficient.  The proposal is intended to be fiscally neutral.  This means importing fuel efficient cars will be cheaper and importing fuel inefficient cars will be more expensive.

The motivation?  If we are going to be carbon neutral by 2050 we will need to stop the introduction of petrol fuelled vehicles by 2030.  And we may as well start now improving the fuel efficiency of the fleet.

National went to town on the issue and issued a whole lot of graphics like these:

The basic problems with these ads are they are disingenuous to the point of being dishonest.  Only cars in the process of being imported would be subject to the tax, poorer kiwis tend to buy locally sourced cars and will therefore not be affected, and the more fuel efficient cars will mean less petrol tax is paid so the change could be fiscally neutral or even positive.

So what does the Government do to this sort of spin?  Sit back and do nothing or respond and point out case by case why what National is saying is crap?

Julie Anne Genter chose the latter course.  

But Kirk thought this was a tactical failure because the Government had not anticipated that the opposition would tell these particular lies about the policy.

It seems that for all the planning that took place to announce it with maximum coverage, apparently far less thought was given to how to defend it.

This has left Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter seemingly with no other choice but to stoically dive deep into the heart of Opposition online territory as the last bastion of defence against misplaced skepticism of Government policy.

These facebook messages are offered as proof:

Genter’s comments were made in response to Bidois’s claim that “Labour’s Car Tax will make some of NZ’s most popular cars even more expensive. But Minister Julie Anne Genter MP reckons it’s just a “small fee.””

Kirk then says this:

The issue for Genter is she’s not up against a relative newby to the transport portfolio.

She’s up against Simon Bridges on this one. He’s a former transport minister who knows exactly what he’s doing, and one whom the Government can’t credibly argue is opposed to electric vehicles either.

I am not sure that Bridges knows what he is doing. For instance yesterday he showed he does not understand the difference between new capital projects and maintaining existing projects:

If by defending the policy Kirk means imagining how dishonest the opposition may be in presenting the policy and then having an immediate response Kirk may have a point. But if she thinks that the media’s job is just to comment on the optics and ignore what should be its basic job and that is analyse the facts she should rethink this.

Joshua Drummond has a phrase for this sort of misinformation and calls it shit speech. His definition is:

Shit speech is the stuff that might not necessarily be described as hate speech, but it occupies much of the same spectrum. It’s speech that presses the buttons of prejudice, bigotry and outrage, but isn’t necessarily hateful per se; that isn’t (always) lies, but is most often inaccurate, skewed, or otherwise misleading. It’s the floating turd in gutter journalism.

The media’s job ought to be to analyse what politicians of all shades say, tell us when they are saying porkies and criticise them for doing so rather than others having to defend perfectly reasonable policies against outrageously disingenuous presentation of those policies.

Well done Julie Anne. Shame on you National and Kirk.

98 comments on “Sometimes explaining is not losing ”

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  1. Sacha 1
    18 July 2019 at 8:16 am

    This government does need to get ahead of underhand crap from media and the righties who feed them lines. To set the framing. That requires strategic comms skills that Labour in particular seem to forever lack. No idea why that deficit is tolerated.

    • Sacha 1.1
      18 July 2019 at 8:18 am

      Kirk is also one of the worst hacks. Lazy repeater of whatever the Nats feed her. Overpaid typist.

      • Rob 1.1.1
        18 July 2019 at 8:39 pm

        I've stopped reading anything by Stacey Kirk she is almost as bad as Garner and makes T Watkins look like an intellectual

    • mickysavage 1.2
      18 July 2019 at 8:20 am

      There is this expectation everyone will be reasonable and I think it goes against the average leftie's nature. You think we need an Alastair Campbell or a Malcolm Tucker?

      • Sacha 1.2.1
        18 July 2019 at 8:25 am

        Just someone who is listened to internally, who can think several moves ahead and shape messages to take that into account – rather than seeming perpetually surprised and on the back foot. It's not rocket surgery.

        For whatever reason Labour has ignored the need for over a decade. The Greens also used to do so much better. I realise getting agreement with Winston First complicates matters but it's a core function of political management. Do the bloody jobs we all pay you to do.

        • Sanctuary 1.2.1.1
          18 July 2019 at 8:50 am

          "…For whatever reason Labour has ignored the need for over a decade…"

          There is no mystery (to me) for this ineptness on the part of Labour.

          Labour is an elite cadre party that recruits it's MPs from amongst a narrow base of candidates put forward by the various factions within the cadre. The ability of the candidates to be effective politicians is not a prime consideration in the selection process.

          • Sacha 1.2.1.1.1
            18 July 2019 at 10:54 am

            I'm talking about the staffers, not the MPs – unless the latter are over-riding the former through sheer ego. Does seem to be a culture problem in the party or they would have fixed it by now.

          • Anne 1.2.1.1.2
            18 July 2019 at 11:12 am

            Labour is an elite cadre party that recruits it's MPs from amongst a narrow base of candidates put forward by the various factions within the cadre.

            I can attest to that and its been going on for decades. If you have ambitions to become a Labour MP you must first align yourself with an identity group. Having done so, you must adhere to the agreed strategies of that group. Any form of dissent is frowned upon and will see you isolated from the pack. At that point any ambitions you may have held are dead in the water, and you either suck it up or you ‘eff off’. I did both at different times.

      • Morrissey 1.2.2
        18 July 2019 at 8:39 am

        You think we need an Alastair Campbell or a Malcolm Tucker?

        ?????!!!?!?!?!?

        It's May, 2005. The British Lions are having their first training run in New Zealand, at the new stadium in Albany. For some reason cooked up in the bowels of Hell, the hapless "Sir" Clive Woodward's manager is the disgraced Blair hatchet man and war criminal, Alistair Campbell. The huge media contingent includes the disgraced racist Paul Holmes, recently resigned from Television One and now trying to get a new show established at Prime TV, whose small number of viewers that evening are treated to a hard-hitting, in-depth interview….

        PAUL HOLMES: Now, just to get away from the rugby for a moment, you know I've GOT to ask you: did you know all along that there were no weapons of mass destruction?

        ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: [nonchalantly, contemptuously] No.

        PAUL HOLMES: Oh, okay. That's it then. …..[awkward silence]….. Ha ha ha ha! They should let me ask all the questions!

        It wasn't a pleasant tour for Campbell…..

        https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2019/05/lions-players-ritually-humiliated.html

      • Anne 1.2.3
        18 July 2019 at 10:44 am

        There is this expectation everyone will be reasonable and I think it goes against the average leftie's nature.

        It is Labour's biggest fault and always has been. Time and again they have been shafted by dishonest journos, political opponents and business oriented sharks. They need someone who knows and understands the world of political gaming and who can keep them one step ahead of the gamers.

        Sacha and Sanctuary together @ 1.2.1 and 1.2.1.1 nicely sum up the problem.

    • mauī 1.3
      18 July 2019 at 9:42 am

      Why haven't they reinstated the public service channel TVNZ 7 yet…

    • McFlock 1.4
      18 July 2019 at 1:46 pm

      I don't believe it's Labour's fault. It's the difficulty of working in a post-truth environment.

      If you know your opponent will act in good faith or at least interpret the observed facts through their perspective, you have a know range of basic moves they will present.

      But if facts are irrelevant, the range of possible arguments they can make is infinite. And if by some miracle you manage to predict and pre-empt their plan of attack, they simply never start it and use another of their infinite possibilities.

      • Sacha 1.4.1
        18 July 2019 at 2:57 pm

        So we may as well give up and go home then?

        • McFlock 1.4.1.1
          18 July 2019 at 3:17 pm

          Hell no.

          It just means a more reactive tactical approach. Things like Genter going onto their home FB echo chambers. Constantly returning to the issue at hand when they try to distract and flip it away. Watching for opportunities to strike at them if they over-extend their bullshit (like forgetting that they implemented the same policy, or whatevs).

          The one thing Labgrn can't do is see the next BS coming. But if the attacked MP hunkers down, keeps their cool, and waits for an opportunity to strike back, the opposition look like fools.

          And, like with sharks, never let them see you bleed.

          I would also add that the other thing they need to do is resist the urge to copy the post-truth lying opposition. Keep that foundation snow white. Otherwise it's just liars bitching with liars.

    • Morrissey 1.5
      18 July 2019 at 3:04 pm

      Labour had the gift of a lifetime handed to it in 2014, when Nicky Hager published Dirty Politics. Instead of capitalizing on that information, Labour did…. nothing. Some strategic genius at Fraser House told every Labour M.P. to say that the book and its revelations about Key and his cronies was "a distraction."

      You can't blame the right wing press for Labour's own stupidity.

  2. Sacha 2
    18 July 2019 at 8:22 am

    The lying was particularly blatant – Porsche does not even make an electric Cayenne like the photo in the Nat ad.

    They know this. Don't care. No real consequences for making shit up. Bring on the trumpiness..

    • Andre 2.1
      18 July 2019 at 8:31 am

      Well, Porsche make a hybrid Canine Cayenne with an emissions rating that would put it in a subsidy band. But the list price of $175k takes it out of the subsidy zone.

      http://www.nzautocar.co.nz/car-reviews-app/2018-porsche-cayenne-e-hybrid-review-roadtest

      • Sacha 2.1.1
        18 July 2019 at 8:33 am

        Ah, thank you for clarifying.

      • Phil 2.1.2
        19 July 2019 at 10:39 am

        the list price of $175k takes it out of the subsidy zone.

        Porsche advertises a 2019 Cayenne hybrid on their NZ website for $162k. They started making hybrid Cayennes in 2014.

        Having a quick look on TradeMe motors, you can pick up, for example, a 2015 Diesel version for "only" $80k to $90k (there doesn't appear to be any hybrids advertised there at the moment).

        It's entirely reasonable to assume that by the time the policy comes into force in 2021, a hybrid Cayenne will be under the $80k limit for the subsidy.

        • Andre 2.1.2.1
          19 July 2019 at 10:48 am

          Ok, assuming the proposal gets implemented exactly as is, and doesn't get made fairer by reducing the price cap for used vehicles. How many used PHEV Canines would get imported each year that got the subsidy? Reckon I'd need to take my shoes off?

          Then when it comes to how many E100 Corrodas that someone might want to import that would attract the fee – well I'm pretty sure the ad's creator wouldn't even need to take his hands out of his pants to count that up.

  3. tc 3
    18 July 2019 at 8:28 am

    A code of conduct with teeth and financial bite is required especially as we've no public broadcaster.

    It's an echo chamber of misinformation and national are now going full trumpian with their deliberate campaign on social media .

    We need another nuclear free nz event across the media. Some of the stuff I've heard from TalkBack hosts would be actionable in Oz. The licence needs to carry a responsibility not legitimise lies.

  4. Sanctuary 4
    18 July 2019 at 8:32 am

    Stacey Kirk is a blatant National party shill, and she continues the baleful tradition of NZ political journalism of confusing cynicism for sophistication and thinking Reon Murtha is the model for analysis.

    For some reason our MSM seems to continually recruit political writers substantially to the right of the general population, then wondering why no one takes them seriously anymore.

  5. roy cartland 5
    18 July 2019 at 8:34 am

    I thought the same when I read that article – and that Kirk has rather suddenly become that awful Tracey Watkins' 2.0. Simperingly sycophantic to the National Party line and completely disingenuous to the point of dishonesty about the Gov.

    A stooge, you might say.

    • Sanctuary 5.1
      18 July 2019 at 8:40 am

      The thing is aligning yourself to the right ideologically and then faithfully parroting the party line means you are eventually guaranteed a high paying PR job with some well funded right wing think tank or corporation.

      This is the source of conservative "discipline" – they are all owned by their own greed.

      For the likes of Stacey Kirk, she'll parley her right wing discipline into access into the halls of wealth of power, and by being a good girl she'll be rewarded by the capitalism elevator that opened to reward it's faithful sycophants.

      • Sacha 5.1.1
        18 July 2019 at 8:51 am

        Seems to be taking a while.

        • Dukeofurl 5.1.1.1
          18 July 2019 at 11:03 am

          Didnt Kirk work for the National party when they won government in 2009 , before she started a post grad journalism course in 2010 ?

          • Sacha 5.1.1.1.1
            18 July 2019 at 11:05 am

            Interesting. They may as well be still topping up her pay.

            • Dukeofurl 5.1.1.1.1.1
              19 July 2019 at 10:17 am

              Thats what the Business Round Table did in the 80s and 90s. They had two methods , one was to commission articles of certain topics with conclusions which favoured the BRT ideology and the other was to 'top up' the newspapers standard fee for other stories they didnt commission but liked the ideology.

              Apparently the well known right wing editor of the Dominion at the time as in on the process and approved.

              It all came out in released emails around 15 yrs ago. Of course the media wouldnt touch the story , much as the media didnt touch the recent parliament bullying report about some reporters were part of the bullying culture

      • woodart 5.1.2
        18 July 2019 at 11:00 am

        journalism used to be a reputable profession. now it is just a stepping stone into being a shill for a corporate. sanctuary is quite correct. how many political journos have suddenly pooped up, sorry, popped up, as "spokesperson" for some corporate ? to be a proper unbiased journo, is to be unemployable as paid bullshit spreader in later life.

        • roy cartland 5.1.2.1
          18 July 2019 at 11:13 am

          The other beneficial* aspect this type of reporting has it that it turns many off politics altogether; a situation long-known to favour the right.

  6. Robert Guyton 6
    18 July 2019 at 8:42 am

    Railing against behaviour such as Bridges' and Kirk's without formulating an effective response or action to counter the behaviour just sucks energy from the supporters of the Government. We get riled up, fume and rant and wear the stress. That anguish should be returned to the authors with interest so that thoughts of future attacks by them result in feelings of keen anticipation from Government supporters, relishing a new opportunity to bounce the attacks back, quickly, efficiently and with panache. Julie Anne Genter did just that, in my view. Kirk employed the same strategy in return, her team being well-practiced in the art. We need to be well-practiced in the art, for the sake of our shared esprit de corps.

  7. esoteric pineapples 7
    18 July 2019 at 8:45 am

    Interesting photo that, at the top, which I have seen used in quite a few different context It's quite loaded with negative subtexts towards women and JAG

    • mickysavage 7.1
      18 July 2019 at 8:53 am

      You think so? I see it and I see JAG trying to explain to Brownlee (National) something complex and Brownlee (National) struggling to understand.

      • Andre 7.1.1
        18 July 2019 at 8:56 am

        I wouldn't even go as far as thinking what JAG was trying to explain was complex. Even something very simple would be sufficient to provoke that reaction from GB.

    • Andre 7.2
      18 July 2019 at 8:54 am

      I'm curious, what negative subtexts towards women and JAG do you see in that photo? All I see is Brownlee trying to contain a head explosion. FWIW, I'm 8 years younger than GB, but otherwise pretty much the same demographic.

    • Sacha 7.3
      18 July 2019 at 9:00 am

      It was a great moment to watch at the time. She totally owned the chump.

    • ianmac 7.4
      18 July 2019 at 10:33 am

      Perhaps in that photo JAG is womansplaining and Jerry can't hack it?

  8. Cinny 8
    18 July 2019 at 8:49 am

    What a muppet the writer of the opinion piece is.

    When reading twitter the other day I was bursting out laughing because of Julie Ann's comments, I thought JAG was brilliant.

    Good on her, most MP's don't comment, I give JAG a standing ovation for her efforts to burst the bullshit bubbles on twitter. High five sista!!!! heart

  9. Matthew 9
    18 July 2019 at 8:59 am

    Sleazy Simon doing what he does best, absolutely nothing. Imagine if politicians concentrated on improving the country rather trying to score points against the other side, how weird would that be? Too democratic? The only valid criticism of this policy is that it is too soft, but understandably the greens have to water down most of their ideas that the less progessive of this nation get not too scared.

  10. Ad 10
    18 July 2019 at 9:14 am

    Shane Jones leads the way with this kind of fight.

    This government needs a far better communicative team.

  11. mauī 11
    18 July 2019 at 10:08 am

    "This has left Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter seemingly with no other choice but to stoically dive deep into the heart of Opposition online territory…"

    Doesn't really paint the corrupt media in a good light does it… Government policy has to be explained via facebook because "supposed" journalism has sowed so much disinformation.

  12. Hooch 12
    18 July 2019 at 1:02 pm

    Expect more of this on steroids come election time courtesy of topham guerin. It’s hard to combat because you wouldn’t expect anyone to so stupidly misinterpret the policy. But it’s not stupidity it’s deliberate misinformation and it’s simple delivery sticks in people’s minds. Again I think the left don’t expect people to deliberately spread this sort of false information. That everyone will play fair. They need to wise up fast.

  13. Incognito 13
    18 July 2019 at 2:16 pm

    Good post, Micky!

    I had a go last night on Daily review @ 12, which got up Wayne’s nose somewhat @ 13 and 14.

    One way to counter the attack is to leave the customers plenty of choice and make this abundantly clear.

    One thing that seems to be overlooked is that the EV market is changing rapidly. By 2021 the catalogues will be quite different from today’s ones. That includes utes.

    Have a look at this recent article with a window on the (near) future; it looks promising and exciting.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/113720611/new-zealands-electric-vehicle-future

    • Andre 13.1
      18 July 2019 at 2:28 pm

      Looks like it will be China driving the ute market. There's the one mentioned in your stuff piece, then there's this Nissan joint venture.

      https://electrek.co/2019/07/16/nissan-electric-pickup-truck-dongfeng-rich-6-ev/

      Wayne's tradies that actually want a work vehicle will find an electric especially useful with an onboard inverter to supply power when they get on-site. For a while it looked like the Workhorse W-15 from the US was going to be first into that market, but it seems they've put their attention elsewhere.

      • Pingau 13.1.1
        18 July 2019 at 3:58 pm

        Most tradies who are on tools actually use a van rather than a ute which is usually driven by the boss or foreman. So says me – an ex-tradie, now driving a desk.

        It will be a while before charging issues can be sorted on a practical level and for work vehicles kept at workers homes, how that could be managed in a fair way also would need to be sorted.

      • McFlock 13.1.2
        18 July 2019 at 6:14 pm

        derp – spend all day at work, forget to leave enough juice to get home lol

        • Andre 13.1.2.1
          18 July 2019 at 6:44 pm

          You'd be going pretty hard to use more than just a few kWhr in a day. Not much of a bite out of a 50+kWhr battery.

          Still, the original Workhorse W-15 sales pitch was that it would also have a dino-juice range extender. Like a BMW i3, but with the controllers able to fully charge the battery from the range extender. It was pitched at utility customers that would want disaster response capabilities. But the latest noises from Workhorse say they're now targeting pure battery to meet California regs.

  14. Siobhan 14
    18 July 2019 at 3:03 pm

    Yet again we are looking to the 'market' and consumerism to save the planet. Which is a nice idea and one that suits the short term goals of compromising centrist economics and social policy.

    However..It won't. (Any more than trading carbon credits and selling our land to foreign groups to plant pine trees.)

    Public transport is the only solution.

    Changing the fleet to electric vehicles is an inevitable evolution, (though EV's account for only 2.4% of global new sales)..but its also a distraction..and one that effects the bare minimum of voters.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/aug/04/fewer-cars-not-electric-cars-beat-air-pollution-says-top-uk-adviser-prof-frank-kelly

    and while were at it..

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/03/the-dirty-secret-of-electric-vehicles/

    • woodart 14.1
      18 July 2019 at 3:22 pm

      dont keep banging on about public transport. out here in the sticks(nearest neighbour 1k away) public transport will never be a goer. many of us will always need our own transport. how its powered is another subject, but public transport really only works for large urban centres.

      • Sacha 14.1.1
        18 July 2019 at 9:10 pm

        Just as well NZ has been a mostly urban nation for a very long time, despite the prevailing myths.

  15. AB 15
    18 July 2019 at 5:14 pm

    The left needs some high-quality propagandists. Plus it needs to have a much lower opinion of the right.

    • Wensleydale 15.1
      19 July 2019 at 1:37 am

      I'm operating at subterranean levels already. I don't think I can go much lower to be honest.

  16. Darien Fenton 16
    18 July 2019 at 5:43 pm

    I have to agree about Stacey Kirk's political columns. I've tuned out now because she is just so awful.

    • Enough is Enough 16.1
      19 July 2019 at 11:40 am

      Someone who has a different political view to your own doesn't make them awful.

      What are we coming to in this country

  17. Muttonbird 17
    18 July 2019 at 6:02 pm

    Kirk, was described in interview with the other right winger at Stuff, Tracey Watkins, as the reporter who covers the National Party.

    I wondered why she would just be tasked with the National Party only, but realised it's likely no-one from other parties would speak to her.

    • Sacha 17.1
      18 July 2019 at 9:10 pm

      Did they say who covered each of the other parties?

      • Muttonbird 17.1.1
        18 July 2019 at 9:47 pm

        No. It was just in the introduction of one of their amateur videos they used to do together.

        I thought it was weird a news organisation would have a journalist assigned to a party in such a fashion. That kind of relationship risks that particular journalist only writing puff pieces about that party in order to maintain the relationship – which is exactly what has happened.

        • Sacha 17.1.1.1
          18 July 2019 at 9:57 pm

          Or they really were topping up the pay. 🙂

        • Incognito 17.1.1.2
          18 July 2019 at 9:59 pm

          Henry Cooke tends to do pieces on and about the Green Party and I think he’s doing a good job.

          • Muttonbird 17.1.1.2.1
            18 July 2019 at 10:16 pm

            He doesn't solely do that though. He covers a wide range of politics as a political reporter should, and appears not to be partisan.

            Kirk only reports positively for the National Party and only attacks their opponents. She's an embedded journalist and as such can only afford to praise those who she is covering.

            This has been going on for some time now and she’s beginning to get hysterical as the above article shows.

            • Incognito 17.1.1.2.1.1
              18 July 2019 at 10:48 pm

              Yes, you are correct and I do like Cooke exactly for the reasons you state. He writes well IMO, quite informative with a bit of depth and background, and sometimes almost but not quite long-reads.

              Believe it or not, nowadays I tend to avoid most opinion pieces written by the same old stale people. The more I read other people’s opinions, the less time I have for my own opinion …

  18. Wensleydale 18
    19 July 2019 at 1:35 am

    This is typical Stacey Kirk. She's not a journalist. She's an irritating twig on the propaganda branch of the National Party. She fills a Rachel Glucina-shaped void.

    National? Hurrah!

    Anyone who isn't National? Boo, hiss, sucks!

    My four year old granddaughter is capable of more in the way of critical thought.

  19. vto 19
    19 July 2019 at 6:20 am

    I think Genter has done the right thing and a good thing here i.e. engage directly with the liar and bully in polite and factual terms.

    I have been using this approach myself in real life over the last few years. It seems the bully and the liar are in the ascendancy across the world today, and unless you are an expert liar and bully yourself progress against their lies and bullying is impossible.

    But calm, and constant, factual response to these people and their lies and bullying seems to work. Every time lies and bullying are presented, simply respond "No, that is not correct. The facts are …… blah blah etc. End". And then do it again.

    and again

    and again

    and again

    in my experience they will get worn down.

    Good on Genter – keep it up.

    • Robert Guyton 19.1
      19 July 2019 at 9:45 am

      Well, vto, my experience is not that "they" get worn down by constant feedback such as you describe, but that anyone listening to the dialogue between you and "them" sees more clearly what is true and what is not and that's the point of change for many people, in my experience. Behaviour change in bullies and liars doesn't happen at the point of challenge, it's a slower, behind the scenes process involving their families, friends and the general ambience of public opinion. In my opinion. Your encouragement to respond clearly and strongly though, is spot-on. Just don't expect them to concur there and then. It's not their way.

    • Wayne 19.2
      19 July 2019 at 9:49 am

      vto,

      If you think Julie Anne Genter is going to wear down National, you don't know much about National. Much more likely an attitude of bemusement that she is engaging on National Party websites and Facebook pages.

      In any event she has no answer to the 4 door ute used by tradies and rural contractors. Despite what she says, there are really no alternative to such vehicles. Winston will have to get a carve out for those who use such vehicles in business.

      Those who use 4 door utes privately can pay as far as I am concerned.

      I would note basically I support the policy, it just needs a few tweaks primarily for the business users of utes. I think National will ultimately accept the policy if it has the appropriate adjustments.

      • Pat 19.2.1
        19 July 2019 at 9:59 am

        I guess with Simons polling its the only strategy National can employ that gives them any hope at all of unseating the current government…..best hope Winston isnt needed to drag you across the line….. you misjudged his price last time

        • Wayne 19.2.1.1
          19 July 2019 at 10:36 am

          Pat,

          I am pretty sure Winston won't go with National in 2020, assuming NZF is back.

          If NZF is back, it is almost certainly a Labour/NZF/Green government again. Winston may be counting on some National supporters voting for him on the basis that he moderates Labour and the Greens.

          • Pat 19.2.1.1.1
            19 July 2019 at 10:45 am

            you may be pretty sure but dosnt change the strategy however….Winston will be hoping youve misjudged again , done his work for him and end up lifting him over the threshold.

      • Muttonbird 19.2.2
        19 July 2019 at 10:02 am

        I laughed the other day when James Shaw was announcing on farm emission levies with farming groups in agreement while National were micro-complaining about a museum suggesting fewer cows would reduce emissions.

        And why so focussed on utes! Particularly the Ford Ranger?

        • Sacha 19.2.2.1
          19 July 2019 at 10:15 am

          The most commonly bought one in recent years. As brave as a Commodore ten years ago. #MiddleOfRoad

          • Muttonbird 19.2.2.1.1
            19 July 2019 at 10:19 am

            There's a joke at one of my workplaces about Ford Rangers drivers. They are making up for something lacking elsewhere…

            • Anne 19.2.2.1.1.1
              19 July 2019 at 10:52 am

              It's to the dads what the SUV is to the mums – a work horse for the dads and a transport vehicle for the mums but most of all it says to the rest of us… we're one up on you.

              In short yeah… they are making up for something lacking elsewhere.

  20. Wayne 20
    19 July 2019 at 9:39 am

    Micky,

    You need to do some fact checking on your claims, something you frequently appear not to do. Instead you routinely throw out allegations about National Party lies.

    The ad about the Porsche Cayenne was basically accurate. As you should know, the use of the word "imported" invariably means second hand imported vehicles. So a Porsche Cayenne hybrid second hand import would get the tax rebate, since it would be below $80,000. Admittedly there won't be many such cars imported, but there will be some.

    Brand new Cayenne plugin hybrids cost $161,000. They won't get the discount. But even though they are imports (as are all cars in New Zealand) the word "imported" invariably means second hand imports, not "new New Zealand".

    • Andre 20.1
      19 July 2019 at 9:57 am

      That's quite the contrived route to justifying that claim about the Canine getting an import subsidy as being technically correct.

      Let's see you do the same for that Corroda that's an E100 model built from 1991 to 1998ish. Who is going to try to import one of those these days? It won't meet front impact or emissions requirements.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Corolla_(E100)

    • solkta 20.2
      19 July 2019 at 10:02 am

      But the words with the ad talks about a "used imported Corolla" and an "imported electric Porsche Cayenne". Why use "used" for one and not the other if not to differentiate that one is new? Also, the ad itself has sparkles on the Porsche but not the Corolla and this is used often in advertising to portray something as brand new. Stop making excuses and take a proper look at the lies being told.

      "Basically accurate", is that a similar thing to "pretty legal"?

    • Muttonbird 20.3
      19 July 2019 at 10:06 am

      The spam ad is misleading then. The use of sparkle/sunflare effect suggests to any reasonable person the car is new. That is a universal indicator of new (or clean) in visual design. In this case the comparison is with a 20+ year old Corolla so the strong inference is that the Cayenne is new.

      National = fake news liars.

      Still, it worked for Scomo.

      Nice that you admit the lie here though.

      Edit: Snap soltka. Wayne will probably dismiss it as a little artistic license.

      • Wayne 20.3.1
        19 July 2019 at 10:26 am

        Muttonbird,

        You clearly don't peruse car ads. Relatively new high end cars do sparkle in the ads. In any event the Cayenne shown is the model from 2014 to 2017. Such an import would be well under $80,000. So I don’t see how you think I have admitted the lie.

        But I agree, no-one is going to import a Toyota as old as the one shown. My understanding is that used car Japanese imports are typically 4 to 7 years old, having passed through the first buyer. The larger of such imported vehicles will get the surcharge.

        • Muttonbird 20.3.1.1
          19 July 2019 at 10:34 am

          No. Any reasonable person looking at that spam ad would assume the Cayenne is brand new.

          That is the intent of the people who commission the spam ad.

          • Wayne 20.3.1.1.1
            19 July 2019 at 10:41 am

            I am pretty certain that National intended viewers of the ad would understand the vehicle was a relatively new second vehicle.

            Three reasons. One, it was well publicised that the policy doesn't apply to vehicles over $80,000. Two, the photo is of a 2014 to 2017 model. Three, the use of the word"imported".

            So, no, you are not being reasonable, you are being obtuse.

            • Muttonbird 20.3.1.1.1.1
              19 July 2019 at 11:08 am

              It is you who is being obtuse. One, National don't say $80K in their ad anywhere. Two, how is the average Kiwi support to distinguish a 2017 Porshe from a 2018 one (this reeks of elitism but there you go)? Three, all cars are 'imported' in the true sense. If they were at all honest they would say 'used' or 'second hand'.

              National as always are being dishonest and it's quite right for JAG to point this out and for MS to cover it.

        • Sacha 20.3.1.2
          19 July 2019 at 10:37 am

          So any Jap imports are likely to be 2012-2015 models then, rather than say 1998 ones. And the levy will affect larger vehicles than a basic saloon. Good to clarify.

        • solkta 20.3.1.3
          19 July 2019 at 10:44 am

          Cayenne shown is the model from 2014 to 2017

          Then it is a petrol only model:

          Porsche Cayenne Coupe Hybrid Coming This Year

          https://www.motor1.com/news/350398/porsche-cayenne-coupe-hybrid-confirmed/

          • solkta 20.3.1.3.1
            19 July 2019 at 11:12 am

            Sorry it looks like i was wrong there and have linked to the third generation when this looks to be a second generation which had hybrid models.

        • Andre 20.3.1.4
          19 July 2019 at 10:54 am

          How many Cayenne PHEVs from the 2014 – 2017 range were sold with the steering wheel on the right? How many NZers would want to import one with the steering wheel on the wrong side?