Terror, human shields, and de-legitimising Israel

Written By: - Date published: 2:29 pm, November 21st, 2023 - 43 comments
Categories: International, israel, Palestine, war - Tags:

Hamas is deploying a set of tough ethical calculations as it planned its attack on Israeli civilians to kill, rape, and kidnap as it did.

One of them is in the use of human shields for their ongoing operations for those in Hamas in Gaza who may survive and continue to fight the Israel Defence Force (IDF). Hamas calculates that the more it provokes Israel into pursuing them even at the expense of civilian death and injury, the more Israel will be delegitimised by the media in more and more countries. Hamas leadership reaffirmed the human shield logic this year that they built the tunnels to keep its own organisation intact at the expense of its own civilians:

Interviewer: “Many people are asking: Since you have built 500 kilometers of tunnels, why haven’t you built bomb shelters, where civilians can hide during bombardment?”

Mousa Abu Marzouk: “We have built the tunnels because we have no other way of protecting ourselves from being targeted and killed. These tunnels are meant to protect us from the airplanes. We are fighting from inside the tunnels.

This is a simple admission that the tunnels are a convenient way for Hamas to hide its military assets underneath civilian infrastructure. This is a textbook use of human shields, which is prohibited under international law.

By locating Palestinian civilians in or above its military positions, Hamas calculates it cannot lose. Either using human shields will prevent Israel from attacking altogether as Israel determines it can’t attack without harming civilians, or as it has done now, attack even at the cost of civilian casualties. Hamas then doesn’t have to do more than let the international footage do its work generating moral outrage of a scale that delegitimises Israel further into equivalence with the terror of Hamas.

This Hamas logic is such a longstanding issue that the United States Congress passed the Sanctioning the Use of Civilians as Defenceless Shields Act in 2018. This law specifically called out Hamas.

Since at least 2014 the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), whose sole mission is to provide relief to for Palestinians, has repeatedly found stores of Hamas rockets hidden in tunnels beneath its schools.

In 2014, a human rights lawyer on CNN said:

The idea that Palestinians use their children as human shields is racist and reprehensible.”

To which host Jake Tapper responded:

We have video of the Hamas spokesman on television telling people to stay in their homes, that it’s an effective way to make sure to fight off the Israelis. That’s not racist. That’s just a fact.”

From research conducted by NATO, Hamas’ most common uses of human shields have been going on since at least 2007 and include:

  • Firing rockets, artillery, and mortars from or in proximity to heavily populated civilian areas, often from or near facilities which should be protected according to the Geneva Convention (e.g. schools, hospitals, or mosques)
  • Locating military or security-related infrastructures such as HQs, bases, armouries, access routes, lathes, or defensive positions within or in proximity to civilian areas
  • Protecting terrorists’ houses and military facilities, or rescuing terrorists who were besieged or warned by the IDF.
  • Combating the IDF from or in proximity to residential and commercial areas, including using civilians for intelligence gathering missions.

There is a specific ethical equation Hamas has to make to get anything out of what it instigated in its attack.

The use of human shields is an example of ‘lawfare’; the use of the legal system against an enemy by delegitimising them, and winning a public relations victory that may gain international support in such bodies as the United Nations Security Council. It a way a small actor magnifies its power against a much more powerful force like Israel. No matter how Israel justifies a strike, the framing of the image of dead and wounded civilians frames the narrative.

Even if at the end of the war Israel justifies each and every one of its attacks from a legal perspective with well considered legal arguments, public opinion shifts further away from supporting Israel at all: politics trumping law.

National governments should be able to justify their position and reveal their adversary’s use of civilians with well documented incidents and supportive messages, working across multiple channels to convey those narratives.

Israel is in some senses being defeated by Hamas either by attacking to destroy Hamas and killing innocent people, or not attacking and causing complete political chaos inside Israel and massive triumph to its multiple state and terrorist enemies which surround it.

The 27 European Union nations see this growing dilemma clearly, with the European Union nations jointly condemning Hamas for what they described as the use of hospitals and civilians as “human shields” in the war against Israel.

Last week the EU nations said in a statement they join “calls for immediate pauses in hostilities and the establishment of humanitarian corridors, including through increased capacity at border crossings and through a dedicated maritime route, so that humanitarian aid can safely reach the population of Gaza.” And they reiterated their “call on Hamas for the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages. It is crucial that the International Committee of the Red Cross is granted access to the hostages.”

And as a key tenet, it said that “the EU condemns the use of hospitals and civilians as human shields by Hamas.”

A further brual success was at the United Nations Security Council resolution last week, which notably the US let through rather than veto. The resolution made no mention of a ceasefire. It didn’t refer to Hamas’s attack on Israel on October 7th. It called for the formation of humanitarian corridors for civilians to pass through, and the release of captives. Hamas would view this resolution as a diplomatic triumph.

So Hamas knows that it can win another part of the diplomatic war in part if it can turn the EU against Israel and ensure that its sole remaining strong ally would be the United States. Even in the United States, Israel has continued to lose support among younger generations because the Israeli government has turned harder and harder right since the 1990s and completely walked away from the ideals that it started with in the immediate decade after 1947.

Hamas has found its win-win weapon: now when the IDF uses kinetic power and the number of civilian causalities surges, Hamas can use that as a weapon in the lawfare it conducts. It would be able to accuse the IDF (and Israel) of committing war crimes, which in turn could result in the imposition of a wide array of sanctions and further loss of international support. That is a serious result for Hamas after killing 1,300 people, wounding many more, terrorising whole towns and kidnapping many Israeli citizens for ends in which few will survive to live again.

That makes for a neat but dark Hamas calculus used effectively over many years and used effectively now.

43 comments on “Terror, human shields, and de-legitimising Israel ”

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  1. adam 1
    21 November 2023 at 4:42 pm

    The Gaza strip is about 360 square km or just over half the size of Urban Auckland. Not Auckland region which is 4,941.13 km2.

    It is at it widest point 14 km and shortest just under 10km. Length wise it is about 41 Km.

    When the war started there were 2.1 million people living their. This meant that the population density was roughly 8,100 people per square km. Now it's a bit less. As so far, 1% of the population has been killed by the IDF.

    Have you been to Auckland? Did you know in Auckland there is a Navy base situated right next to the well to do urban population, of Devonport. Or the Army base which is smack bang in a new urban development in Papakura. Also we should not forget the one which is not so close to civilians – Whenuapai Air Base.

    Crumbs major cities everywhere have military close to and on top of civilian areas. Who would have thought that was a good idea? Not me.

    But lets talk about the hostages shall we. In your world it seems they are important – more important than it is to Israel government. As they seem to not care in the slightest, what with the indiscriminate bombing. Or, the use by the IDF of Hellfire missiles on cars on day one – some of which, in all probability, contained hostages.

    Lets talk about day one shall we. Lets use your figure of 1,300 people. How many were IDF? And on active duty? Killing military combatants is now not allowed? I've heard figures of 500 at the top end. How many of the dead Israel citizens were killed by the IDF? You have seen the pictures, and some of the video. A lot of those killed were not killed by weapons Hamas have. Hellfire missiles leave tell tale signs. As they were designed to deal with armour. Truly ugly images when they hit building and cars, and I'm not going to post war porn here. You can go google it yourself if that your thing.

    I know it's not a good idea to stay in your home when a enemy is bombing it and all around you to death. But, people are funny. They have things like attachments to places and people. The fear loss, the think they will be OK, bad shit happens to other people. They remember history. A ugly history which if your a Palestinian keeps repeating. al-Nakba, al-Nakba, al-Nakba.

    • SPC 1.1
      21 November 2023 at 5:39 pm

      Where one bases ones military is probably a function of a security assessment. Any nation that attack us where we are, will win. Our security is our location.

      For Hamas, it is having their (any) military based underground. But given they are not a recognised governing body, any use of force by its military wings is seen as a terrorist act.

      That they attack Israel to provoke a response while hiding underground (civilian shield) is a war crime. Israel was required to warn people in Gaza City to leave, as to bomb an urban area without doing so would have also been a war crime. Hamas asked them to stay.

      If Hamas recognised the state of Israel and were acting on behalf of a 1967 state – given the occupation policy since 2009 (and especially since 2022), it could have been seen as a defensive actor. Even then by attacking only Israeli military positions around Gaza and only taking unarmed civilians hostage.

      I know it's not a good idea to stay in your home when a enemy is bombing it and all around you to death. But, people are funny. They have things like attachments to places and people. The fear loss, the think they will be OK, bad shit happens to other people. They remember history. A ugly history which if your a Palestinian keeps repeating. al-Nakba, al-Nakba, al-Nakba.

      Sure, half of that was psychological. The rest some simply did not have their own transportation and others the assurance of a secure path and time for helping them.

      • adam 1.1.1
        21 November 2023 at 9:43 pm

        Hamas asked them to stay.

        Got proof of that? Other than sources from the IDF?

        Or is it this quote – not quite asking them to stay is it. "remain steadfast in your homes and to stand firm in the face of this disgusting psychological war waged by the occupation".

        So your saying military targets are now civilians, because Hamas military wing are called terrorist's?

        George Washington should have all his images and statues wiped from existence, because he was the leader of a terror group as far as the British were concerned. Oh wait they won, so not terrorist.

        The IDF have lied about who was kill, and the fact they killed their own, and and you playing lawyer word games to defend them. Classy.

  2. Descendant Of Smith 2
    21 November 2023 at 5:15 pm

    So explain to me why it is OK for Israeli citizens to simply takeover Palestinian houses in order to expand Israel further – to move in and make them their own houses.

    How is this lawful? How could such behaviour not cause people to oppose them?

    There is hate and fault on both sides. It isn't a one or the other. Not helped in my view in believing in non-existent gods and thinking that old and ancient mythical rules are the way to live.

  3. francesca 3
    21 November 2023 at 5:30 pm

    Gosh

    Those horrible Hamas people are weaponising

    Israeli war crimes now .

    What will they not stoop to ?

    Forcing those innocentl Israelis to barbarism mayhem and murder.

    They should be strung up and Netenyahu should be awarded a peace prize.

    This has been a long time coming .

    Why are we only paying attention now?

  4. SPC 4
    21 November 2023 at 5:53 pm

    It called for the formation of humanitarian corridors for civilians to pass through, and the release of captives. Hamas would view this resolution as a diplomatic triumph.

    It was something Israel then did.

    While talks about a 5 day cease-fire with some hostages released was and is still going on.

    Otherwise it is surely onto provision of shelter, food and power in the south and a makeshift hospital there and a hospital ship off the coast.

  5. Tony 5
    21 November 2023 at 6:46 pm

    Unbelievable misinformation Advantage.

    [You still have Mod notes to respond to (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04-11-2023/#comment-1975285), so please complete this task before you comment here again.

    Given the piss-poor quality of your contributions here, I can say that you won’t be missed if you decide to opt for a ban instead – Incognito]

  6. Tiger Mountain 6
    21 November 2023 at 6:51 pm

    Given the scale of non combatant death and destruction in an asymmetrical attack, this is actually a rather appalling post from ADVANTAGE. 75 years of horror, humiliation, land theft, brutality, arrest without due process, settler attacks, ignoring UN resolutions…is what gave rise to the likes of Hamas.

    It would be nice to see people here urging the government and NGOs to send aid and try to break the Gaza blockade–yes the real politik–most Governments are shit scared of US Imperialism it seems. Unions around the world are now supporting trade bans and BDS against the Apartheid state.

    • SPC 6.1
      22 November 2023 at 8:02 am

      Israel supported a two state peace in 1948.

      Why was there no advocacy for a 1948 border Palestinian state during the Egypt and Jordan occupation of Gaza and the West Bank?

      The PA/PLO leadership were offered a (1948) 1967 border state with East Jerusalem as a capital in 2000.

      They said no because they also wanted right of return of refugees into the state of Israel and objected to (Jordan River) border security arrangements.

      The fences and the arrests were a result of intifada afterwards. Till 2000 (even as late as 2009) the settler project was only seen as serious by Likud, Labour saw it as a mere pressure for peace and would withdraw from them with any peace.

      • lprent 6.1.1
        22 November 2023 at 8:24 am

        Plus they wanted the removal of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza as a precondition. That was the actual sticking point. Right of return was not the sticking point.

        Gaza settlements were removed in 2005 as part of Israels military disengagement from Gaza in favour of a land-sea-air blockage and effective siege, and 4 unlawful under Israeli law settlements were removed from the West Bank.

        However the most obvious signal of Israeli government intentions was the repeal of the law that allowed for the removal of unlawful settlements.

        Israel repeals 2005 act that removed West Bank settlements

        Netanyahu’s government has put settlement expansion at the top of its agenda and has already advanced thousands of new settlement housing units and retroactively authorized nine wildcat outposts in the West Bank.

        As Advantage is so invested in internationally unlawful activities, perhaps he'd like to comment on that set of activities.

        Because that is a much clearer violation of international law than the difficulties of mounting a resistance movement in what is effectively a concentration camp under a internationally unlawful decades long siege. Every place in the Gaza strip is close to medical facilities, schools, refugee camps – including the border with Israel. Any kinds of defensive or offensive structures will be close to civilians. So raising this as a topic is like saying ‘it is ok to get raped if it is close quarters’ because conforming to these ‘laws’ inside Gaza removes any ability to resist Israeli attacks or to take offensive actions in a 70+ year civil war in Palestine is impossible.

        Perhaps if the Israeli government actually followed international laws itself, then this wouldn’t be an issue. But there is always parties like teh Irgun, Likud and Benjamin Netanyahu and other war-mongering arseholes in the way.

  7. Cinder 7
    21 November 2023 at 11:00 pm

    This is some extremely weak sauce. You even left your fingerprints at the scene of the crime

    1 – Your citation of "Rocket in tunnels under schools".

    No tunnels.
    Schools vacant and un-used
    This little detail at the bottom of the article

    • "AFTERNOTE

    UNRWA Jabalia Elementary “C” and Ayyobiya Boys School on 22 July 2014

    The Secretary-General convened a UN HQ Board of Inquiry (BOI) on 10 November 2014 in order to investigate a number of incidents between 8 July and 26 August 2014 affecting or involving United Nations personnel, premises and operations, including the report of the presence of weaponry at this school. The Secretary-General released a summary of the BOI report on 27 April 2015 (S/2015/286). The summary indicates that the items found were not rockets; the Board concluded that it was highly likely that a Palestinian armed group might have used the premises to hide weapons but was unable to confirm with certainty what type of weapon might have been hidden at the school.

    2 – Then you cite MEMRI. Founded by Israeli intelligence officers (one of whom is neo-conservative buddy of Richard Perle and Netanyahu) and with a history of bias and willful mistranslation of Arabic and other languages. I wouldn't trust anything that they claim without being able to access and understand the primary sources, especially the context. Thats how bad MEMRI are.

    3 – The use of "human shields" still does not remove the need for proportionality in the actions taken. Thats international law too – Why did you not mention that? Is it because you have seen the before and after satellite images of Gaza?

    4 – Its Israel – they have consistently claimed the enemy uses human shields on numerous occasions but never provide any proof. Its always just a few days away, just wait, hang on…. And then a year later they admit that they did indeed kill an entire family in a car for no reason except they were Palestinian. The destruction of the building used by AP and Al Jazeera was conducted under this claim, no proof was ever provided and thats just a single example where it would have been in their interests to do so.

    The only “evidence” you have provided did not mention tunnels, just un-used schools.
    Everything seems to be “The Israelis told us”

    Meanwhile – The use of humans as actual shields by the IDF has been documented repeatedly for over 2 decades.

    “Israeli soldiers had used Palestinian children to enter potentially dangerous buildings before them and to stand in front of military vehicles to deter stone-throwing, it said.”

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinian-israel-children/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-u-n-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620/

    5 – NATO – Why would that military organisation take such a deep interest in urban combat operations? Ooooo….

    "there are massive profits to be made from testing Israeli military innovations on the more than four million Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank."

    https://www.wrmea.org/2013-september/the-lab-israel-tests-weapons-tactics-on-captive-palestinian-population.html

    6 – Why would the Europeans be giving the Israelis a blank cheque? Nothing to do with the centuries of anti-semitism, expulsions, exoduses, pogroms and genocides which took place there I'm sure. And I'm sure the rising tide of anti-immigrant nationalism in the EU had nothing to do with it either

    7 – Do you really think Israel gives two wet farts about international law? Really?

    A country which thought that it was an act of war when we co-sponsored a UN resolution condemning the illegal settlements?

    A country which kidnapped a number of our citizens in international waters while maintaining an illegal blockade?

    If they really believe in international law then they should sign up to the Rome Statute.

    But they won't…

    Anyhoo – All of your post was rather pointless as the Israelis let the cat out of the bag over a month ago:

    IDF spokesperson R Adm Daniel Hagari made the startling admission that “hundreds of tons of bombs” had already been dropped on the tiny strip, adding that “the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-is-one-day-at-a-time-life-on-israels-frontline-with-gaza

    You don't need to reply to this, no-one does.

    How about instead we check back in 12 months once the ethnic cleansing is complete and we can see if you have found a moral compass

    • SPC 7.1
      21 November 2023 at 11:30 pm

      This may not mean what you think it does.

      Anyhoo – All of your post was rather pointless as the Israelis let the cat out of the bag over a month ago:

      IDF spokesperson R Adm Daniel Hagari made the startling admission that “hundreds of tons of bombs” had already been dropped on the tiny strip, adding that “the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy”.

      The reason why they asked people of Gaza City to leave was because they were going to level the place (so as) to fight Hamas underground. That is, there would be no targeted bombing apart from not hitting the hospitals.

      Rome

      Some countries have signed but not ratified.

      Four signatory states—Israel in 2002, the United States 2002, Sudan on 26 August 2008, and Russia on 30 November 2016—have informed the UN Secretary General that they no longer intend to become states parties and, as such, have no legal obligations arising from their signature of the Statute.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_Statute

      India and China have not signed.

      International humanitarian law requires all parties to a conflict to avoid locating, to the maximum extent feasible, military objectives within or near densely populated areas. Other obligations to protect civilians from the effects of attacks include removing civilians from the vicinity of military objectives and giving effective warning of attacks that may affect the civilian population.

      https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/

      This covers most, if not all, issues.

      From warning people to leave before an area is bombed to expecting those that place an urban area under siege (war zone) to allow civilians to leave.

      https://www.icrc.org/sites/default/files/document/file_list/challenges-report_urbanization-of-armed-conflicts.pdf

      • Cinder 7.1.1
        21 November 2023 at 11:43 pm

        Over a million people.

        In less than 24 hours.

        To an area the IDF were already bombing and shelling.

        Put down your crack pipe.

      • lprent 7.1.2
        22 November 2023 at 8:45 am

        The reason why they asked people of Gaza City to leave was because they were going to level the place (so as) to fight Hamas underground. That is, there would be no targeted bombing apart from not hitting the hospitals.

        I guess that also explains why at least a third of the deaths have been inside the the Israeli designated 'safe areas'. The IDF appear to have been just using bombs, missiles, and artillery in a in discriminatory manner and making up stories about their targets afterwards – or at least that

        If what you assert if correct, then why there have there been many documented atrocities against civilians on the roads from the north to the south before the IDF sent troops in to cut the road. Even when there have been announced safe periods for evacuation from north to south, those appear to have just been guidelines on good times for the ill-disciplined IDF soldiers to perpetuate more atrocities against civilians on the evacuation roads.

        I could give you links, but I'm pretty sure that you could find them yourself once you remove your horse blinders…

        • SPC 7.1.2.1
          22 November 2023 at 9:33 am

          Whatever.

          I am quite well aware of the apparent incoherence of asking people to move south and then bombing areas to the south.

          The fact remains, the large scale bombing of Gaza City did require the warning that they would need to leave. The bombing to the south was supposedly more targeted. As in earlier bombing of Gaza – but then as now, civilians have died.

          I have no idea what the policy is for strikes on targets on the roads (as per artillery or missiles), or direction to forces on the ground there to fight Hamas (as to identifying threats). Before, or after the designation of times and routes for safe passage. Others with more expertise can compare it to policy in the occupation of Iraq during the insurgency.

  8. Tiger Mountain 8
    22 November 2023 at 7:12 am

    It is rather pointless playing quote ping pong with Israeli apologists. IDF/Israeli state are bent beyond belief. Back in 2014 their online troll farms were exposed, whereby 24/7, students in particular were paid for online propaganda activity.

    https://electronicintifada.net/content/inside-israels-million-dollar-troll-army/27566

    I was targeted for several weeks on social media by a small pack of them for criticising Gaza bombing on Facebook. When Lorde declined to play there, boy did they go off.

    So what is to be done is continue solidarity actions with Palestine–march, rally, protest, BDS, union trade bans, hit the Israeli state where it hurts–economically and culturally.
    Israeli businesses around the world need to be boycotted and politicians sent the message–stop backing the apartheid state and US Imperialism.

    The true nature of too many Israelis has been revealed over some years by photos of settlers sitting on sofas on ridges, on the piss, cheering on plane strikes on Gaza.

    “In our thousands, in our millions, we are all Palestinians!”
    –Roger Fowler, Kia Ora Gaza AO/NZ

    • SPC 8.1
      22 November 2023 at 8:07 am

      Those people and those who do not join us in demonising them are the baddies.

      You would have been a great McCarthyist.

      • lprent 8.1.1
        22 November 2023 at 8:51 am

        I think it is more about you simply not wanting to hear anything bad about Israeli techniques.

        So what do you think should happen in the south Levant aka Palestine to get rid of the mess that the UK and the UN left there in 1948.

        Currently I lean towards simply removing the state of Israel as being the main impediment to the continual warfare and the way that keeps spilling over into the rest of the region and world.

        • SPC 8.1.1.1
          22 November 2023 at 9:01 am

          I think it is more about you simply not wanting to hear anything bad about Israeli techniques..

          So you have the same tendency to partisan portrayal of those you see as on another side.

          I would have thought it obvious that debating an issue indicates the opposite.

          So what do you think should happen in the south Levant aka Palestine to get rid of the mess that the UK and the UN left there in 1948.

          Currently I lean towards simply removing the state of Israel as being the main impediment to the continual warfare and the way that keeps spilling over into the rest of the region and world.

          I don't see the elimination of a state of Israel, or the prevention of a Palestinian state, as lawful in international law. Nor just.

        • Tiger Mountain 8.1.1.2
          22 November 2023 at 9:33 am

          The proverbial in the room surely is the massive US financial support for the Israeli State & Military. If that were substantially cut or removed the behaviour of the IDF etc. would change, and quickly.
          https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2023-10-10/how-much-aid-does-the-u-s-give-to-israel

          The tipping point will likely be reached as in South Africa, after this slaughter fest.
          https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/16/apartheid-south-africa-reached-a-tipping-point-israel-will-too

          The answer has to be a one state country with equal rights for all–and while few would say that would be easy–what other path is there for some reasonable peace in the Mid East.

        • Belladonna 8.1.1.3
          23 November 2023 at 5:03 pm

          Simply removing the state of Israel – and leaving the current population/s in place, will just continue war/terrorism/whatever label you want to apply. People will go on fighting and killing and terrorizing everyone on the 'other' side.

          If you are proposing to remove the Israeli population – where do you propose to send them?

          Have to say – most of the wars in the Middle East this century have had nothing to do with Israel.

          • lprent 8.1.1.3.1
            26 November 2023 at 1:23 am

            Have to say – most of the wars in the Middle East this century have had nothing to do with Israel.

            Bullshit. Do you ever read anything? Most of the 21st century middle east conflicts all started from Al-Queda. That doctrinal base for that fell out from the Russian invasion of Afghanistan. But the occupation of Palestine by the state of Israel was the other extant example. Ummm. Name section in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda

            The doctrinal concept of "Al-Qaeda" was first coined by the Palestinian Islamist scholar and Jihadist leader Abdullah Azzam in an April 1988 issue of Al-Jihad magazine to describe a religiously committed vanguard of Muslims who wage armed Jihad globally to liberate oppressed Muslims from foreign invaders, establish sharia (Islamic law) across the Islamic World by overthrowing the ruling secular governments; and thus restore the past Islamic prowess. This was to be implemented by establishing an Islamic state that would nurture generations of Muslim soldiers that would perpetually attack United States and its allied governments in the Muslim World. Numerous historical models were cited by Azzam as successful examples of his call; starting from the early Muslim conquests of the 7th century to the recent anti-Soviet Afghan Jihad of 1980s

            IS ran on the same basic philosophy, so does Hamas, etc. Al-Queda specifically was opposed to the stationing of American bases in the Arabian near the holy cities after the first Gulf War.

            Partially the reason for that deployment was for the protection of the gulf states against Iraq.

            But mainly for US domestic reasons and concerns by Arab states about the aggression of Israel. It was also because of the Iraqi Scud missile campaign against Israel in the first Gulf war and the Israeli concerns about WMD programs in Iraq. The implicit security guarantee for Israel was that the US would be in a position to interdict development of WMD in Iraq by having bases in the Arabian peninsula, and that Israeli was to not provoke a another widespread war by preemptively attacking Iraq WMD sites.

            Because of that secular western military presence in the Arabian Peninsula, the whole reason for the the September 11th and earlier attacks was to provoke the US to attack a Muslin country using that organisational base. Which is what happened. That in turn triggered a instabilities of all the 21st century wars in the middle east.

            At the centre of the causative effect is the state of Israel and its inability to accommodate the Palestinian refugees that it deliberately created in 1948 and the occupied territories that it seized since.

            Right now it is mass killing Palestinian civilians in Gaza in what looks like purely collective punishment massacres, allowing its armed soldiers and settlers to kill and injure civilians in occupied areas without any consequences from law fro the same reason, attacking civilian infrastructure like community solar arrays in Lebabon for the same reason. Herding Palestinians into ghettos in Gaza and the WEst Bank to make it easier to murder civilians efficiently in military and settler pogroms (south Gaza and Hebron being obvious examples).

            The IDF and settlers appear to be using all of the possible techniques to perform ethnic cleansing and at the same times to further the cause of more extremist Palestinians groups.

            Basically Israel as a state can easily continue to be seen as the centre for trouble in the reason because of its behaviour. The rest of the world would have been be way safer without them colonising that region.

            People will go on fighting and killing and terrorizing everyone on the 'other' side.

            We won't know while the state of Israel refuses to deal equitably with the refugee and occupied communities that they deliberately created and control. About 20% of the Israeli state are Palestinians. That doesn't appear to be an issue apart from some of the the racist/religous inequality.

            Most of the Israeli internal terrorism is from extremist settler, extremist Zionist or religious Jewish nut-bars.

  9. John 9
    23 November 2023 at 11:56 am

    One state with equal rights for all sounds sensible but is it realistic?

    • Belladonna 9.1
      23 November 2023 at 5:05 pm

      Given the hatred and the totally incompatible bottom lines from the most extreme wings of both sides – I'd have to say it was entirely unrealistic.

      It doesn't matter how much international negotiation goes on, if there are substantial populations who are entirely prepared to ignore anything other than 'total' victory for their side.

      • lprent 9.1.1
        26 November 2023 at 1:25 am

        Plus 40+ years of Israel refusing to deal with the mess that they created back in 1948 with their planned and executed forcing of a refugee ethnic cleansing campaign.