Written By:
mickysavage - Date published:
12:19 pm, December 29th, 2024 - 61 comments
Categories: crime, human rights, national, paul goldsmith, police, same old national -
Tags:
It did not take long for the first example of the absurdity of the Government’s gang patch ban to appear.
A 12 year old has been questioned by police for wearing a black t shirt depicting a fist and with the words “Kia Kaha Boxing Club” endorsed on it.
From Television New Zealand:
There are concerns police have misused a new gang patch ban law after a 12-year-old boy was questioned on Christmas Day for wearing a boxing gym t-shirt, featuring elements of the Black Power logo.
The boy was walking to a friend’s house on Wednesday when officers, earlier responding to a medical event across the road, approached him.
They told the 12-year-old they were allowed to confiscate his t-shirt, which displayed the logo of his boxing gym.
The gym, Kia Kaha Boxing Club, is associated with Black Power and had elements of the gang’s insignia in its logo, including a raised fist and two ferns. The gym has been open since 1995 and operated out of the Black Power Marae in Mt Wellington. The symbol has been a part of the club since its inception.
The tshirt was a Christmas present.
The young man was detained, taken to his home and his Tshirt was confiscated. He was also referred to Youth Aid. This must have been terrifying for him.
What is really weird is the Club had previously sought advice from the Minister of Justice about the legality of its tshirt and had been assured that the intention was not to criminalise associated insignia.
Again from Television New Zealand:
The boxing club had earlier contacted the Police Minister, seeking clarification on its logo and received a response from Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith.
“I want to reassure you that the intention of this law is not to criminalise symbols where they are not actually part of a gang insignia,” Goldsmith wrote. “The law is intended to prevent the intimidation and fear felt by some members of our community when they see gang patches, and to prevent gangs from promoting themselves.
“This is intended to capture, for example, gang patches on the back of leather vests, which are not able to be worn by ordinary members of the public. However, a fern or raised fist symbol that you have identified can be worn in many contexts unrelated to gangs, so are not intended to be captured by the offence.”
This is completely over the top policing. If I had a tshirt like this I would wear it to show the absurdity of the law.
And this more aggressive policing of the issue correlates with the appointment of the new Police Commissioner. Former Commissioner Andrew Coster had a much more gentle approach to these issues.
Police Minister Mark Mitchell has said that kids shouldn’t be wearing clothes with gang insignia in public. But the problem is what qualifies. Is any black tshirt with a fist now verbotten?
This really needs to end up in court. So that the Justice System can determine that this legislation and the associated policing are egregious breaches of our rights.
Probably a cheaper, quicker way to scrap (all) the madness, than tying up the courts with endless judicial review, is to have an early election……is Chippie and co ready…….
Agree Kat. Start over.
Maybe the cops picked stupid example so they would get blowback, so the could reduce the pressure for arrests? Maybe?
Did the boy get his shirt back, does anybody know?
Labour apologists crying poor. Your soft on crime policies and bugger the victims are reaping their just rewards. The rest of us can only reflect on what it will be like with Kevin McN as PM and TPM and the Greens calling the shots.
I can understand why the post will never see the light of day. For Labour and their allies free speech means the ability to agree with their policies. Disagree and you're gon-burger.
[Looks like the machine let your comment through so your main point has been shot down. Equating banning tshirts with soft on crime policies if weird.
Your post has seen the light of day. Obviously the Standard has more respect for free speech than your Government.
MS]
Evidence?
As for the projection and transference, can you name anyone in the public service or government appointee who has criticised this administration and survived?
Veteran of what? Hot Air Balloons? Crime has accelerated away, on the same gradient as unemployment. imo which is as valuable as yours. Free speech, when your lot don't agree they get nasty online or don't even engage or try to change the Law without examination. Democracy gets foreshortened truncated and fast tracked.
What a stupid comment The Veteran – you must be one of those idiots from the sensible sentencing trust. Happy to kill brown kids for tagging, and server a under 2 years for it. Then call the left soft on crime. What a crock of shit. Your just sceared that Te Pāti Māori will start cracking down on white collar criminals, hate crimes, and idiots who think they above the law.
This is a dumb law made for dumb people to crow over, and targeting 12 year olds goes far to show how much a crock of shit this law is.
As for comments getting banned – I've never had one comment get past the moderators of this countries right wing sites. Mind you they have no balls, just like you. Just a collection of whinging snowballs – that's the right in this country. Snowflakes one and all.
yup, being soft on 12 year old kids wearing boxing club T-shirts. Lock all the little shits up ay Veteran. Get hard on 12 year olds wearing boxing T-shirts, that'll dramatically bring down the crime rate.
ps mate, as you read this nodding your head and agreeing, the above is sarcasm
nutcase
[you might be new here, so please read the Policy (top of every page) and think about if you want to keep commenting privileges. Random rudeness or harassing other commenters with no meaningful political analysis or input usually results in a ban – weka]
mod note.
Before you criticise the left for what you incorrectly assumed would be your blocked comment, have a look at what David Seymour is doing to ban free speech at universities.
Goldsmith once again showing the low KPI performance expected of him as a minister of the crown.
Mickysavage has his Spartacus moment.
Good idea.
Let's all order this boxing club's tshirt
"I bring you a message from your master, Marcus Crassus Mitchellus…"
Must be easy enough to buy tshirts with a fist.
Or go in to production ourselves …
Isn't it the logo for the black panther movement
Black Power, I posted the comparisons below.
Lets face it we now live in a Mammonite colony.
Racism and hate of working people is the new norm.
This tune is to help you get through it, and remind our so called Christian PM & his upper room mates – Eve was black
I disagree with your assessment of the situation, and I think it’s unfair to compare the two leaders in such a way.
[lprent: we already have an alwyn here. I have arbitrarily given you another handle. Also pick a less obvious ‘e-mail’ next time. ]
I have been commenting using the name "alwyn" for about 10 years now.
Would you please consider using something else?
OMG There's two of you…………
Only two? No we are everywhere. If you are as old as I am you would remember the film Spartacus. At the end the Romans were attempting to find the leader so they could crucify him.
Everyone they asked answered "I am Spartacus". In the same way everyone who thinks that, in politics, "Right is right" would tell you "I am Alwyn".
Well I can dream anyway.
Sleep then… and dream of better days. Spartacus had a dream
Comparing this govt to Romans is unfair on Romans.
Well back in the day there was a certain gospel band.
https://girdermusic.com/products/malcolm-and-alwyn-fools-wisdom-pre-owned-vinyl?srsltid=AfmBOorFAlLM-H3XcfTF-xiWOlyJtD9_hEUHh7tz300JJCwECnaFBSaf
Can't see why I should give them the choice.
I let the other one through with a new email address yesterday, assuming it was our regular alwyn who wanted to change his address, my bad.
Not very fair on alwyn to have pretender tied to his name. It's not exactly clear that it's not the first alwyn.
It is if you read the reply by Alwyn to the comment.
Which two leaders are you thinking of notalwyn?
Tv news tonight, Mark Mitchell blames the boxing club.
Quelle accountability!
If I had a tshirt like this I would wear it to show the absurdity of the law…
You can get one from the USA, that makes them. The website says they have 24 left, but if they know about what just happened, their printers are probably working overtime to do more!!
And, interestingly, they don't advertise the clothing as anything to do with gangs and, I'm guessing here, the clothing company is not affiliated with Black Power either.
https://fanaticity.com/product/kia-kaha-boxing-club-logo-shirt/
I have several long sleeved black Ts with “STOP WARS” in classic Star Wars font on the front and the logo at top of SA page “ALL POWER TO THE PEOPLE” on the reverse–at around patch size…
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fsocialistaotearoa.org%2F&psig=AOvVaw2MagVN7aqlsRAUEJ7BtduD&ust=1735585222504000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CBQQjRxqFwoTCJC5___UzYoDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE
from Socialist Aotearoa group (not a member).
Local pom cop who I know from a few iwi demos glares, and the Māori cops nod.
This is about freedom of assembly, speech and association and all should work to overturn or neutralise this attack on clothing and symbolism–mark my words, Green Peace, Eco Socialists, Unions, Communists and other activists including Palestine solidarity will be next if this is allowed to slide.
The Fashion Police.
Instead of dealing with crime. The government are policing what people wear, and in some cases even in their own homes?
Thought crime: What you wear means you may commit a crime?
Guilt by association: If you wear a gang patch you may be a criminal?
By the same token:
If you wear a hijab you may be a terrorist?
If you wear a ski mask are you are about to commit a crime?
If you wear a gang patch you may be about to commit a commit a crime? Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
If you are visibly a member of a gang you may commit a crime?
Whatever happened to the right of assembly?
Do we need to add another line to Pastor Niemöller's poem?
"First they came for the gang members, I wasn't a gang member so I did nothing…."
Get the shirt
https://fanaticity.com/product/kia-kaha-boxing-club-logo-shirt/
You missed blue ties as a gang symbol.
A case has been made, that men who identify themselves as gang members, are more likely to commit certain blue collar crimes, than people who don't identify themselves as such. A case has been made that this fact, should single them out for special police attention and harassment because of their dress code..
Sure. And it is true that an obviously expensive business suit, is worn by certain men to identify themselves as members of the managerial class.
I suppose a case could be made that this also identifies them as to be more likely to commit certain white collar crimes, than people who don't identify themselves as such. But I doubt whether a case could be made that this fact should single them out for special police attention and harassment because of their dress code.
If you wear a gang patch as a member you should be treated as a member of a terrorist organisation.
If you wear a ski mask in a mall you should be banned from shopping. Only a couple of years ago you could be banned from shopping for not being vaccinated multiple times despite really flimsy evidence it made any difference.
If you want the right of assembly you should first give up your commitment to doing crime as a member of that criminal organisation.
No right of expression is immutable, and are legitimately traded off against other rights.
vaccinations worked
The rest of your nonsense isn't worthy of a reply.
This is inane.
Gangs don't wear patches because they are fashion. Please, stop and think this through.
Gang patches signify that the wearer has a specific status in an organisation that is well known to commit multiple crimes. None of your examples fit that.
And seriously, gangs rape women. Do you really want to protect their rights in the same way as Pastor Niemoller was intending? Wtaf?
Gang members have the same human rights as others. Gang organisations don't. I agree with much of what micky says in terms of the difficulties of upholding such laws (and I think there are far better ways of addressing gang problems), but there's no good reason to promote gang organisations as somehow benign.
Leaked footage shows it was a Constable Savage that collared the 12 year old.
It isn't true that he also charged the youth with "Looking at me in a funny way".
https://youtu.be/xGxjnD42iw0?si=NeoyX81ypCVdKc5u
What a waste of TV news time, is it even news worthy? The democratically elected government was just doing what it's electors wanted fighting out of controlcrime. How TV One News can justify 3 nights now on the 6 o'clock news is mind numbing. This is why there ratings are down they need to drop the "wo is me" stories and get to some real news. Or they will be gone!
Combat crime? For sure – just not convinced our CoC govt are wise crime fighters
https://thestandard.org.nz/under-national-crime-is-out-of-control/
https://teara.govt.nz/en/dishonesty-crime/page-3 [Fraud]
https://teara.govt.nz/en/dishonesty-crime/page-4 [White-collar crime]
https://natlib.govt.nz/records/23240140
this is about freedom of speech and association, crucial rights.
National are continuing what the Labour-Greens government started.
It was in 2013 that they passed legislation to ban gang insignia on government premises.
It was in 2023 that they passed the legislation giving our Police big powers to disrupt criminal and gang related with big amendments to 4 Acts: Crime, Land Transport, Search and Surveillance, and Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Finance of Terrorism.
This is on top of the Criminal Proceeds of Crime act which doesn't require a criminal conviction for property seizure.
So we are a long long way down the path of restricting human rights of expression and of property ownership.
I mean they had to do something: gang membership had just exploded on their watch. The long term Police operations against gangs that completed this year have been massively successful as a result.
The insignia ban won't lower crime or membership, and of course in New Zealand the tattoo membership signifier is still legal unlike Western Australia.
But what it will do is decrease their visible presence and so decrease community fear. That's an important step all by itself. So I support it.
I don't have a problem premises saying no gang patches, bars and pubs have done it for some years. I have no problem the courts taking proceeds of crime off gangs, or white collar crimincals, seperate the criminals from their ill gotten cash. Mitchells law isn;t getting tough on gangs, membership is only going up under his govt. All he does is look like a big tough man whilst also taking police time and resource away from combatting real crime
Greens were not in government in 2013, or 2023.
Labour targeted crime and proceeds of crime.
National went for gang insignia in government buildings in 2013 and further this time.
I agree with your general points micky, and I think the solutions to gang problems should be led by Māori not populist MPs. But…
I had a friend who was raped by multiple men while she was pregnant with her first child. They were all gang members. I look at the t-shirt in question and I see design features to tie it to a patched gang. Can you imagine what it is like for rape survivors who were raped by gang members to see such a t-shirt in public?
The concept of kia kaha in a gym aimed at kids is great. However, tying that visually to patched gangs is no ok (for reasons I hope I don’t have to explain). It would have been really easy to produce a tshirt that connected kids to their culture but not to the patches. To me it looks like the tshirt is intentionally tied to Black Power. I will put the images side by side below.
There is a difference between pointing out the legal absurdity of the new law and policing, and actively promoting the visuals that support gang culture.
mana whenua is not a gang
What is it then?
I'm open to being educated in this. My point was about the visuals, and the visuals are obviously a take on BP. I pull the image off an NZH article that was quoting BP and that article says the Mana Whenua patch is a BP patch,
https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/09/15/exclusive-black-power-boss-speaks-out-on-gang-law-changes/
Also,
https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360493128/gang-patch-ban-day-1-unknown-subterfuge-and-pressure-police
it's not hard to see the iconography,
https://www.odt.co.nz/sites/default/files/styles/odt_square_extra_large/public/story/2023/12/man_who_assaulted_boy_sought_by_black_power_1934996710.jpg?itok=7EVSB3ZB
Haven't heard from the president of the Dairy Owners wing of the National Party, Sunny Kaushal, on this one. Surely he would far rather police time is vested in stopping ram raids and shop lifting than arresting 12 year old kids for wearing a boxing club T-shirt.
Someone may have already said it, but I think it's called "virtue signaling". I feel even less safe than I ever have because I am expecting a wardrobe raid anytime soon.
Perhaps all those who think this is silly should try growing up in a neighborhood full of wannabe gangster kids who wear things like this to intimidate those who aren't violent pieces of trash like them.
This whole poor kid thing is rubbish, I've seen plenty of 12 year old boys be criminals so why treat them like they aren't capable of the things some of them do.
This law is good it just needs to have more power to not only remove the insignias and patches but remove the gangs completely.
I'd be interested in how you propose doing that!
That is, without resorting to fascist-type draconian methods!
Those interested in snatching up 12-year-old gang affiliates and referring them to Youth Aid should be equally interested in snatching up Children's Market Day participants before they become employers that steal wages – or even more insidious – National, Labour, and ACT voters. As yet, there is no culturally neutral place of correction to put potential pakeha offenders who are still in their infancy.
"Pakeha must take responsibility for this!"
The best solution NZ politics can offer is a vote for NZF. Though this solution probably has a ten-year shelf life and is more of a band aid than a cure. Last I heard there are about 5000 known gang members. For all the talk of impossibilities, you'd think there were five million. A 12-year-old boxing club member's status will only be increased by being grabbed by the cops. Close the club. Done. Then NZF candidates can go into the same community and deliver some useful local industry improvements. Done. Is it really so unachievable? Are 5000 gangsters really more powerful than the government and every corporation that supports them?
While it appears the Police have overstepped the mark with this young person, I do wonder why a 12 year old would want to wear a t-shirt showing a raised fist.
Hah! What archaic rock did you crawl out from – the 1940s? When tee-shirts didn’t have messages on them.
I am wearing a tee-shirt that says “Programmer in need of work, willing to do windows”.
Yesterdays had a picture of of a cat in cap, it said “Chairman Meow, support the revolution!”.
My partner is currently proclaiming her allegiance to NASA. Her yesterdays tee was about a sanctuary for witches familars.
I have tee-shirts for a pirate haven in Russell ripping off the Iron Dukes crest. Ones proclaiming my view on programming bugs. A raised finger describing standard management practices. A picture of Mickey Mouse morphing into Tu Meke
I generally don’t bother buying tee-shirts. I get given them as presents. I have two shirts with collars. One for interviews that gets pulled out every few years, the other for when someone croaks (I don’t bother with weddings).
I work in t-shirts with messages and shorts or jeans, both when working remote or anywhere workplace outside of client sites. Companies supply labelled tees for those.
It takes a special fuckwit like Mark Mitchell to push through a law that tries to censor tee shirts.
I may have to get a tee made with his face and name, a modified police logo (they don’t like that being used), and a couple of generic symbols that some dumbarse could think were gang related excreting on to them. That would be an appropriate message about this tee-shirt censoring stupidity.
We gotta do something. .. another person lies dead. This time sadly a 42yr old woman in Ngaruawahia. I don't buy the gangs-are-likeable-ne er – do-well lovable rogues. I live in a gang town. Individually ok.. in a group the red blue mist takes over.