The demise of single use plastic bags and the limp vege problem

Written By: - Date published: 8:16 am, February 14th, 2020 - 80 comments
Categories: humour, Satire - Tags: , ,

The rapid demise of the single use plastic bag has just left one hole in my life. I haven’t (so far) been able to replace the one and only second life use that I ever found for them. They were great at keeping the broccoli and carrots from going limp in the fridge. 

Where can I buy a washable transparent thin plastic bag to wrap some of the vegetables in the dry air of an ice free fridge? Or is there a viable alternative?

Neither vegetable compartment of the modern fridges that we currently own, a Fisher and Paykel or Samsung, are up to the spec.  The broccoli goes limp within days. The carrots start going black and limp within the week. I’ve tested this on both fridges in the last 6 years.

It used to be that single use plastic bags were perfect at prolonging vege life in the vegetable compartment of the fridge! We got a clean bag every week to wrap the sensitive veges. It separated the veges that needed using from those that were fresher. And it meant that I could cook nice crisp broccoli until their heads started to yellow off. 

So far this appears to be the only downside to losing single use plastic. My partner waged a concentrated campaign over the last decade to wean me off single use plastic.

It started with separating the soft plastics and bagging them in the cupboard to send back to the supermarket. With the sequestration of some hard plastics, paper,  cardboard, and bottles this had immediate benefits. The load of leaky wet garbage I had to carry down 5 flights dropped to less than a third (more about that disgusting mess later). 

We now use large cotton bags for the shopping. Of course you just have to remember to take them to the supermarket which I seldom do. This is something that I’m not good at.

My solution to this issue was simple. Since my main use for our 1993 Toyota Corona is as a shopping basket (I e-bike to work), every time I couldn’t find a cotton bag in the car, I brought new ones and left them in the shopping basket car . Turns out that about 12 were required to ensure that there are always at least three there. There are often 9 hanging on the door upstairs or going through the wash.

Unfortunately, cotton bags are disgusting for solving the limp vege problem. They just seem to breed mould. And I have to go through the arduous process of buying more. Incidentally why don’t the supermarkets sell them any more. My Countdown now only seems to sell teeny single use paper bags or teeny branded plastic weave bags. Why in the hell would I buy those?

Since we shifted over to using the starch based biodegradable bags for the garbage. I tried those. The less said about what it did to their structural integrity and what is deposited on the vegetables, the better life looks.

I have to say that the technology for those kinds of starch based bags has improved markedly over the last couple of years. When I was bludgeoned into using them as a complete and accurate skeptic, they were bloody terrible. Only made in sizes designed for daily emptying of the garbage and liable to tear or leak at the slightest provocation, they left a weekly trail of grunge down my leg and down the stairs each week.

Now they have decent sizes and are way tougher. We double bag them for the garbage and the garbage lives on a rubber mat from Bunnings to catch of the relatively any in situ leaks. They mostly don’t leak unless you drop a lot of fluids in them and give it a week to fester. I add a bag for the carry downstairs.

Basically not as good as the old plastic bags. But good enough and cheap enough. I’m damn sure that they are going to provide immediate food for bacteria and fungi. They rot really fast after they have had garbage in them (I tested it). They surely aren’t going to wash into the oceans and live there for years as bags or micro plastic fragments.

But the fact remains. Since the demise of single use plastics, my broccoli has been getting limp. I’ve taken to buying carrots in plastic so they don’t start looking like prunes when I want to eat one. Where can I buy something that keeps my veges moist inside a dry cold fridge?

It is a problem. While I’m at it – where in Central Auckland can I buy big cotton bags? We’re running low as they get used for other things.

BTW: For any idiotic purists out there. Having a garden or compost heap would be a waste of my valuable time.

My partner regularly kills plants and I don’t have time to maintain a garden or compost heap. Besides it is also not advisable in a 3rd story 55m2 apartment in the Auckland city inner fringe with a shared garage space.

Similarly if you’re a paid to be an idiot like Muriel Newman or a mouth paid to dribble nonsense like Mike Hoskings and don’t understand the obvious damage caused by plastic bags.

Then I’d suggest that you keep your useless advice to yourself or for Open Mike. I’m trying to solve a problem here. I’m not putting this up as a soapbox for demonstrating that you can’t solve problems. I’m also perfectly capable of researching real science or tech myself. What I’m not that experienced at is the whole retail thing.

But if you haven’t read the whole of my post and wish to dicuss those things then feel free. You’d have also just volunteered to be part of my sadistic study in how to humiliate dumbass internet trolls.

80 comments on “The demise of single use plastic bags and the limp vege problem ”

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  1. lprent 1
    14 February 2020 at 8:21 am

    And (hot damn) it turns out that this is my 1000th published post. I don't count the ones published under notices and features. A fraction of the 24,782 posts on the site.

    But this is a multi-author site and I have had 11 and half years to achieve that.

    But I guess that I'm diverting my own post..

    • Cinny 1.1
      14 February 2020 at 5:28 pm

      Vege's like lettuce, broccoli 🥦, cauli etc, put them upright in a bowl with their stalk/roots soaking in a bit of cold water, like a bunch of flowers in a vase. Replace the water daily for best results. Great method when camping or without power.

      In summer a small chilly bin in the car with a slica pad will keep vege's fresh until you get home. When you get home, pop vege's 🥕 in closed lid reusable plastic containers.

      But the best solution of all, is to grow ones own vege's and then they are always fresh and you only pick what you need 🙂

      PS.. that’s pretty cool the big 1K, we enjoy your posts ✍️very much Iprent. Congrats 👍

  2. Sanctuary 2
    14 February 2020 at 8:23 am

    On my cycle home from work I stop by the local independently owned vegetable store to buy our (in season only) vegetables two-three times a week.

    This solves my limp vege problem without need for any plastic.

    cheeky

    Yes, slightly smug but also true.

    Now, off to plan our next flight to Europe…

    • lprent 2.1
      14 February 2020 at 1:58 pm

      I live and work in nearly central Auckland. When cycling I deliberately try to avoid all shopping areas because that is where the ultra dangerous parked cars and their heedless operators are.

      I don't find too many vege stores when I bike on bike paths, backroads, and main roads where there is limited parking. Sure I could ride along Mt Eden Road at rush hour. But that would indicate that I have a death wish. The bike paths are carefully placed where there isn't a bike problem, but disappear where there is.

    • Jenny 2.2
      14 February 2020 at 10:45 pm

      I save the bread bags. The veges keep fresh in these.

  3. Dennis Frank 3
    14 February 2020 at 8:39 am

    Congrats on the millennium! Yes, the issue of constant air circulation within a fridge and the oxidising effect on vegetables does require prevention to keep them fresh. People will probably point out that those zip-lock plastic bags you buy in supermarkets work well. I have a few left from the wee box I bought about five years ago, and recycle them via washing in the kitchen sink with the dishes.

    I also have a plastic bag full of those thin plastic bags that I used to recycle the excess of by taking them into the local Countdown recycling bin. Those remaining are useful for giving my excess garden produce away to neighbours or the two foodbanks downtown. But I sometimes use them in the fridge – they keep lettuce leaves fresh for a couple of weeks no problem and being thin and flexible they fit on top of other containers under the next shelf up so are efficient space-users.

    As regards cloth bags for supermarket goods, I have two or three in the car. Yes, mental discipline and a method for getting them back into the car did actually take several years to embed but I got there about a decade back & my system has no problems.

  4. A 4
    14 February 2020 at 8:41 am

    I have taken to daily shopping trips. Not sure if it is my fridge, lack of plastic etc but my veges seem to go limp within a couple of days.

    Tried reviving them by placing them in water with the tops out but this seems to be visual improvement only, as the taste is lacking.

  5. JanM 5
    14 February 2020 at 8:53 am

    Try putting your broccoli stems in water and chop a bit of the stem off every day – not in the fridge but on a sun-free bench. And why would you put carrots in the fridge? Try a dry vegetable rack – not surprised they turn black in the damp conditions of a fridge

    • lprent 5.1
      14 February 2020 at 2:05 pm

      55 sq metre apartment with about 2.5 metres of bench distance including the sink and oven top. We try to maintain a section of about a metre for cooking.

      There is no spare space on a rest of the bench once you have a coffee grinder, jug, fruit bowl. Not to mention the toastie maker, toaster, juicer that come out of the cupboard on the 'spare' bench space.

      • McFlock 5.1.1
        14 February 2020 at 3:04 pm

        hang a jar from the wall or ceiling, maybe?

        The Hanging Gardens of Auckland…

      • JanM 5.1.2
        14 February 2020 at 4:01 pm

        That's a positive mansion next to the caravan I live in! (Without electricity so don't have all those other bells and whistles lol)

        • lprent 5.1.2.1
          14 February 2020 at 6:38 pm

          I don't think that I could really live in a caravan without power. TS would go down.

          On the other hand I bet that it doesn't cost the graft I give my partner to pay to the bank. On the other hand it is made up for by the rental from my apartment that I overlook.

      • Cinny 5.1.3
        14 February 2020 at 5:33 pm

        Do you have junk drawer, you could clear out and use instead for storing vege?

        • lprent 5.1.3.1
          14 February 2020 at 6:51 pm

          It used to be that I did have junk areas in my old apartment. However after my partner moved in, life has been a regular exercise in the annual throw out / gifting.

          After I got rid of my decades long pile of obsolete computer gear like the stack of old computer cases and the small mountain of coax cable, I got rid of the thousands of books and went to e-pubs on a calibre server. All of that provided room for her to unpack the storage into the home. Then we started throwing her stuff out.

          We now have a storage cubic in the garage 5 flights of stairs below where anything likely to get chucked or seldom used. For instance the luggage I use when I get deployed overseas is there. But every space upstairs is full of stuff that gets regularly used and then some.

          For instance I have 18th century pub table that I like and don't want to get rid of. Provides a great place to stash the computers under. On top it has the TV hiding the dual UPS that stop TS from getting power cuts, the network switches and my little mail server. I no longer have a junk problem. I have a space problem.

          When we finally get tired of working, we'll probably go and find some more space where ever there is fast bandwidth and low rates. In the meantime the biking distance to work and the cost if housing constrains where I'll be living.

          • Cinny 5.1.3.1.1
            15 February 2020 at 10:51 am

            🙂 Don't get rid of the table, it sounds awesome.

            On the upside, at least there are no kids at yours, lollz kids are like magnets for extra stuff.

            IPrent I think I've a solution for the vege storage. Wash out your old breadbags, frozen vege bags and use them for storing the veges in the fridge, secure with a clothes peg for airtight goodness. Rinse and repeat when necessary.

            If you use frozen food bags, you could turn them inside out, often they are white on the inside and label them carrots etc. Volia! Strong, labelled, reusable plastic vege bags 🙂

  6. WeTheBleeple 6
    14 February 2020 at 9:10 am

    I have tiny freezer syndrome. So, similar to Sanctuary I use local shops to buy what (meat) I need when I need it. I do realise that in a busy modern life multiple shopping trips to replace one larger buyup likely doesn't solve your issue at all.

    Back in the day when plastic bags weren't so free and easy I recall lines of the resealable bags hanging out with the washing after Mum had washed them. Perhaps you could purchase larger more durable resealable bags for similar purpose.

    Alternately, would a large systema container act as a vegetable crisper if you had it in the fridge?

    • Anne 6.1
      14 February 2020 at 9:28 am

      Yep. I'm an every other day shopper at my local fruit and veges shop. It's like the good old days (?) when our Mums went shopping at the local shops almost on a daily basis. It meant everything was always fresh. It helps to wipe out the plastic fridge container with a tea towel before placing fresh produce in it. I also keep the broccoli and other green veges in biodegradable bags. That helps too.

      Plenty of advice for you to chew on lprent. 😉

      • lprent 6.1.1
        14 February 2020 at 2:08 pm

        Yeah, if I wasn't working for 8-11 hours a day at work and then coming home to work on the other work, I could go shopping every day. As it is I can afford about 30-45 minutes once a week.

        My partner seems to prefer to go running or annoying her nieces when she gets out of the house rather than shopping.

      • Billy 6.1.2
        14 February 2020 at 2:14 pm

        Exercise for firmer carrots. It's a win-win.

        Or you could always get your groceries delivered…

        • Billy 6.1.2.1
          14 February 2020 at 2:24 pm

          Countdown uses electric vehicles.

        • lprent 6.1.2.2
          14 February 2020 at 3:14 pm

          This is an apartment building with with no exterior delivery spaces and a locked door. This reduced the massive amount of junk mail to our 60 apartments to just whatever NZ Post would be paid to deliver. NZ Post has a card to get in, but don't deliver groceries.

          It would also involve one of us being present when they deliver. Neither of us have much control over our schedules.

          I gave up on delivered groceries about a decade ago after 6 months after I stopped working from home and started getting forwarded phone calls from the apartment block door to me being stuck in traffic.

          When we did My Food bag a few years ago, we got the box delivered to my partners sisters place down the road where they had a back porch. Deliveries and apartments are a nice idea that really doesn't work.

          no

  7. Robert Guyton 7
    14 February 2020 at 9:15 am

    "For any idiotic purists out there. Having a garden or compost heap would be a waste of my valuable time."

    Those promoting gardening are "idiotic purists"?

    Perhaps the solution to your limp broccoli predicament would be to remove that burr from under your saddle smiley

    • lprent 7.1
      14 February 2020 at 2:17 pm

      Ah – Exactly where would I put a garden or compost heap?

      We have an apartment. It is about 10 metres long, by 5 metres wide. Fits two people, two desktop computers with large screens, the server for TS, a TV and a couch, bathroom, bedroom balcony that barely fits a lime tree in a pot.

      While this is actually plenty of room for us and TS, the idea of having a compost heap in our living room really just shows that your brain has been retarded by living in your one.

      Please read the post Robert rather then being an purist dickhead who clearly has problems reading.

      • Robert Guyton 7.1.1
        14 February 2020 at 3:47 pm

        Well, Lprent, I'm pretty weirded out by your response. You're calling me a "purist dickhead who clearly has problems reading", when I haven't, in fact, suggested you build a compost. Last week, RedLogix suggested my words were those of a mass-murderer and WeTheBleeple got mightily p-d-off by a comment from me that he regarded as flippant, so logically, the fault lies with me, unless there's something else in the air. My style of communicating is out of synch here, it transpires, so once again, I'll try to zip it, no matter how interesting the topic. Seems to me this medium of commentary has a systemic fault that could explain the disappearance of some other the regulars we used to hear from, back in the day.

        • Billy 7.1.1.1
          14 February 2020 at 3:53 pm

          Sometimes people who have dedicated their lives to politics get irritated around people who actually live their values, Robert. It's tough to succeed in the former if you practice the latter. They are going to want to throw you overboard, or force you to drink hemlock.

          Never mind, better than a stew of rotten vegetables.

          Enjoyed showing some friends the TV spot about your food forest the other day. I suddenly clicked who you were. It's impressive stuff.

        • New view 7.1.1.2
          15 February 2020 at 8:28 pm

          I sympathise with you RG. I’m sure not the ally you would want. but those on this forum tend to treat it as their club and are very left and very green. The problem is in this case it’s not real. Only some of the population are going to compost and come up with all sorts of solutions to the lack of plastic bags. I’m not green but used to get real mileage out of the super market bags and bread bags. I understand they were a big problem . Now there’s not enough so we buy small plastic bags for food scraps. If they’re not to grotty I’ll wash and reuse them. The real world is people who are time and space deficient and tired and can’t be fucked doing token composting that attracts vermin and who leave the 30 heavyweight bags that they have accumulated at home. I use these bags by the way. It’s all the non recycle able plastic that’s the problem and there’s not much happening to stop that. All the ideas on this forum are fine but the masses just ain’t going to do it in practice. Here, you are a small group of like minded people talking to yourselves.

      • greywarshark 7.1.2
        14 February 2020 at 5:58 pm

        It's that hot summer thing making programmers sweaty and vegetables limp. Trying to be green when living in the city, it ain't that easy.

        What about a bokashi bin for your compost – they are very effective, on hand, small, self-contained. Now what to do with the remainder – it can;t be used straight away and mine wasn't kind to the compost worms when it put it in there. It needs to be buried for the soil to finish it off – it is held in a limbo stage, just smelling a bit vinegary.

        You don't want to have a garden just to deal with the remainder. In an apartment building there isn't a lot of room for gardens. Could the Council start picking it up for using in city gardens?

        It seems that there needs to be a reliable, efficient pick-up system. I have a greenwaste but they would see the bokashi remainder as food items that don't fit their composting system. And they wouldn't want anything looking like food in, or they wouldn't know whether it was ordinary waste or bokashi'd. I think a phone-up system or similar would have to be available and the caller would be told that number of callers from the area would mean there would be a pickup on a certain date.l The thing is bokashi can wait some time without becoming smelly.

        • lprent 7.1.2.1
          14 February 2020 at 7:09 pm

          I live in aircond at work. Biking is a breeze. It is the damn stairs that are sweaty…

          The apartment block is looking at joint compost bin in the garage. Don't know where progress that is at. With 60 apartments we could find someone interested in taking the results (files that as being possible). However the people we pay to deal with the garbage probably have a target audience..

          There really isn't space or the apparent inclination for a garden.

      • greywarshark 7.1.3
        14 February 2020 at 6:13 pm

        I think it must be very noticeable in your small apartment LP that valuable space is given to TS infrastructure, which also has a large piece of organic mobile infrastructure that goes with it. I think we are all grateful for that working arrangement, which in a way works like the bokashi compost I am thinking about.

        We put in our nuggets of info, which are contained in this system, and remain able to be used again, not just thrown to the winds. And there are clever compost worms who can turn them. and find value, so they have useful outcomes. Got to look after those worms! It is a really good system this blog, now I examine it. But remember it needs a good balanced combination of input so it doesn't go soggy in one corner or get over-heated and smelly in another.

  8. Robert Guyton 8
    14 February 2020 at 9:19 am

    "“Hi, we're Bee's Wrap, and we're changing the world of food storage.”

    THE NATURAL ALTERNATIVE TO PLASTIC WRAP FOR FOOD STORAGE — BECAUSE GOOD FOOD DESERVES GOOD CARE

    Wrap cheese, half a lemon, a crusty loaf of bread, and fruits and vegetables. Cover a bowl, or pack a snack for your next adventure. Made with organic cotton, beeswax, organic jojoba oil, and tree resin. Bee’s Wrap is washable, reusable and compostable."

    https://www.beeswrap.com

    • Rosemary McDonald 8.1
      14 February 2020 at 2:03 pm

      Onya Mr. Guyton.

      The beeswrap is a growing 'thing', and to get around the problem of not being able to tell what is wrapped in the beeswrap, an outfit in the FFN is drawing appropriate pictures on the cotton fabric before running it through the melted beeswax.

      My god….I do think the problem is solved!

    • lprent 8.2
      14 February 2020 at 2:52 pm

      Umm. Wrapping everything individually in a non-transparent medium isn't exactly useful. Unless you labelled everything it is going to be hard to find out what is in a cloth.

      I wonder if they make bags… I wonder how wax cloth does going through a cold wash each week. But worst of all can we afford the drying rack space. That is at a premium with two adults and no room.

      • Rae 8.2.1
        14 February 2020 at 6:04 pm

        Don't wash it, just wipe down and hang it to dry even if simply draped over something (cup, jug, bottle) on the windowsill. You don't need to sterilize them just keep them in the open as much as possible.

        • Rae 8.2.1.1
          14 February 2020 at 6:18 pm

          The current poblem you, and the rest of us, are having with fruit and veg is the big dry. It is pretty weak when it's harvested, which is hopefully very, very early in the morning. Supermarket f and v are marginal at best.

          If you are in apartment, how about shopping the French way, only buying what you immediately need, then you won't be stuck eating f and v that is weeks old.

          If you have a regular farmers' market nearby shop there otherwise look for a fruit and veg shop that is constantly busy, you can be reasonably sure their stock will be fresh. Pak n Save turn produce over quickly as well. Countdown I have found to be universally dreadful in this area, New World a bit better.

          • lprent 8.2.1.1.1
            14 February 2020 at 7:11 pm

            The problem is that we literally have little spare time. People may have noted my absence from the site in recent years. There is a reason for that – at age 60 I seem to be working more rather than less. Frequently working offshore as well.

  9. Gosman 9
    14 February 2020 at 9:30 am

    Serious question here. Growing cotton is actually quite ecologically damaging in many places in the World ( The Aral sea's demise was facilitated by large scale irrigation of cotton in Central Asia as an example). Is it actually better for the planet if we all use Cotton bags instead of plastic if we end up going through them at a high rate due to mold etc?

    • Robert Guyton 9.1
      14 February 2020 at 9:44 am

      Gosman – one way past that issue is to re-use cotton; sew bags from cotton cloth etc. sourced from op shops or your own home. I expect hemp cloth will be the answer to the cotton issue you describe. Hemp does not require the toxic inputs conventionally-cotton does.

    • WeTheBleeple 9.2
      14 February 2020 at 9:44 am

      This is the same Gosman who only yesterday was arguing for the status quo concerning agriculture? Now doubling down to argue for the previous status quo of plastic. Such a progressive thinker – always with a smidgeon of information bursting forth and tangling your neurons.

      Other destructive crops which yesterday you defended as 'the most efficient' – corn, wheat, soy. Nothing like a clueless boomer yelling over the fence to enlighten us all.

    • You_Fool 9.3
      14 February 2020 at 11:55 am

      Hi Gosman, serious answer:

      It depends on how you define the function of a bag and how much weight you give to the impacts of waste ending up in the environment and if you accept that reusable bags are in fact reused. But really the only time plastic is better than cotton is in keeping food fresh (as LPrent has discovered). So yes, over the entire lifecycle of a bag, if your Functional Unit is 1 bag (as opposed to x kg of food transported to the consumers house and consumed) then single-use plastic bags are the worst (assuming you re-use your cotton/hemp bags). When you look at it from a FU of getting food from farm -> shop -> consumer then the environmental impacts from food waste become significant.

      It should be noted that the 2 issues (food wastage and plastic leakage into the environment) are both issues that can be solved in ways that have nothing to do with the use of plastic bags. Just that use of plastic bags was to solve the first, and the ditching of them is to solve the 2nd….

    • William 9.4
      14 February 2020 at 2:35 pm

      You seriously underestimate how long a cotton bag can last. My oldest (and most used) dates from 1982. I know that because it's still silkscreened with the conference details where it was given out. Handles are getting frayed but they'll be repaired when the time comes. I usually do two trips to the supermarket each week. Even if I've only used that bag for half those trips, it's simple maths to work out its usage.

      If you change your mindset to regard them as valuable, then it becomes easy to look after them and always have them handy when needed.

      • lprent 9.4.1
        14 February 2020 at 2:55 pm

        That has been my experience as well. The oldest cotton bag we have is about 6 years old and still looks like new. Even after going through the washing every few months.

        I have tee-shirts from the 1990s that I still wear. I do have to protect them from my rag-hunting partner.

        • You_Fool 9.4.1.1
          14 February 2020 at 3:11 pm

          Whilst they are reused enough, individual user reuse rates are not the same as the gross reuse rates of the population at large, which matter more when comparing the env. impacts of one bag to another.

          That said, it is still another issue that is easily solved without going into which bag is better. And Gosman was worried about the wrong impact category anyway.

          • lprent 9.4.1.1.1
            14 February 2020 at 3:17 pm

            Yeah, the relative ecological impact of cotton bags compared to single use plastic bags isn't even in the same orders of magnitude.

            • You_Fool 9.4.1.1.1.1
              14 February 2020 at 3:28 pm

              Depends on the impact you assign to emissions from food wastage, and what weighting you place on that vs plastic leakage to the environment

              Embodied impacts depend on the re-use rates, which for bags are high enough generally to offset the greater impacts due to the bag being heavier (which is the issue with land use change is situated that gossy is worried about). Interestingly embodied energy and reuse/recycle rate is why plastic bottles are better than glass. Glass bottles are much heavier and energy intensive than plastic bottles, and the re-use rates way under the required rate to break even (approx average of 1.4 times reused vs 7 times required to reuse to break even)

              • lprent …
                14 February 2020 at 7:26 pm

                Problem with plastic isn't the reuse rate. It is how the types of plastic in use are steadily getting less and less useful for remanufacture.

                When I was tangentially involved with plastics many decades ago (my father was doing a lot of injection moulding), the reuse was pretty high because there was little plastic that wasn't recyclable. Not the same today, and the amount of effective recycling is going down because it is less easily remelted. Instead they chip it (like PET bottles) and put it into a form that is far more likely to enter the food chain.

                https://learn.eartheasy.com/articles/plastics-by-the-numbers/

                Where as silica in the form of glass has few of the same issues. It is chemically inert. Geologically (my first degree) it will usually only degenerate to a sand level. The exception being spun glass fibres.

                Moreover regardless of how long the stuff gets dumped, it is collectible and recyclable at any point in history with the application of energy – something that we have a plentiful supply of now that we've been shifting to renewable sources.

                So frankly, your claims are complete horseshit and just reveal to me that you don't understand the issues. In fact it sounds like you swallowed some propaganda and never bothered to use your brain.

                • You_Fool …
                  18 February 2020 at 12:38 pm

                  Contrary to your last line, I actually have a better grasp of this issues than you, albeit badly explained.Also, I did say early on that the impacts of plastic do depend on the weight you place on waste leaking into the environment, and that is still the case. However, the issue with glass is it's high embodied energy (extremely high) and high weight, so whilst it's use and end of life is low impact, that is more than offset by the impact during manufacture. Plastics have a high impact on resources, low impact during manufacture and use, then high impact at end of life, all in different impact categories to glass. So glass has high impact on climate change, whilst plastic has medium impact on resource use (due to being mostly/sort-of a side-product of petroleum production) and very high impact on pollution at end of life.

                  So it depends on what you want to worry about. Personally, end of life issues are solved easier with current tech limitations, whilst the tech to provide high temperatures from green energy is still awhile off, so gas furnaces are still needed to form glass, which is directly an issue right now. So moving to glass to solve an issue with how we as a society behave, and with the goals designers have just shifts the burden, especially when the immediate issues with plastic can be solved a different way. There are still issues with resource depletion, but that is hand-in-hand with our dependency on oil in general, and redesigning for a circular economy helps to reduce the impact anyway.

                  At some point, when tech has improved, the impacts from other materials and the ease at which they can be formed and used will be less, and then we can phase out plastic.

  10. opium 10
    14 February 2020 at 9:51 am

    Tupperware containers,or their ilk,will perform the same function as a plastic bag & are reusable.

    • veutoviper 10.1
      14 February 2020 at 12:13 pm

      How about a NZ product instead – Sistema make a wide range of reusable food storage items which imho are way ahead of Tupperware in terms of their design and much cheaper. Sistema was a NZ start-up and while the original starters/owners sold out for megabucks, they are widely available eg New World, Countdown and Warehouse and often on good specials eg 50% off.

      Re the short shelf/fridge life of many veges etc these days, I was talking to a New World supermarket buyer of fresh fruit and vegetables for their supermarkets in the lower North Island about this the other day, and in particular the poor quality of carrots these days compared to memories of carrots being kept in a cool shed or similar for months in my far distant youth. He said that this is in part due to the changes in varieties being grown for quick production etc etc. and he and the supermarkets are also frustrated with the amount of product they have to throw out. He was changing suppliers for carrots and similar root veges from ones in the North Island to suppliers in the Deep South – fine and good in terms of product but more transport costs, carbon miles etc ????????

    • lprent 10.2
      14 February 2020 at 2:58 pm

      Tried them. They are inefficient in the vege container in the fridge because of its tapered edges and small width. Lots of height.

      That was why a bag was ideal.

  11. Phil 11
    14 February 2020 at 10:30 am

    +1 for the Tupperware 'Fridge Smart' containers. But I do acknowledge they are hellishly expensive.

    I haven't thought about it until your post now, but have you tried dog poop bags? We get rolls of them from discount/$2-shop stores for picking up after our giant furry monster. They're a little smaller than the old supermarket vegetable bags, but are similar material.

  12. john clover 12
    14 February 2020 at 11:49 am

    My problem with the current sytem is What do I do with the 'nice' paper bags that Countdown delivery my groceries in? three or four a weekly delivery.

    Most after I take out the goods are like new and I carefully fold them and store in a paper bag … I have three paper bags full of paper bags now 🙁

    At the shop they charge 20c per bag to pack your groceries in but each delivery they charge me $1 for the three or four bags….. another grievance but not too worrying 🙂

    From my limited experience I am sure the way I kept and re-used plastic was more friendly to the world than the paper now used.

    Black mark Jacinda IMO

    • veutoviper 12.1
      14 February 2020 at 12:01 pm

      Take them to your nearest foodbank – I am sure they would be happy to take them and use them for food parcels.

    • Robert Guyton 12.2
      14 February 2020 at 12:49 pm

      Don't be silly, John!

      You must stop exploiting and start helping.

      Bring

      Your

      Own

      Bag.

      And stop blaming Jacinda for your own lack of imagination smiley

    • Cinny 12.3
      14 February 2020 at 5:45 pm

      You can compost paper bags.

      You can use them to remove wax from clothing.

      Chuck your recycling in them then chuck in the recycling bin. That's what we do with them.

      Supermarkets here give you options, paper bag or a box, both can go in the recycling bin or the compost and boxes are great for storage.

      If you are staining wood, they are great for mopping up excess stain.

      Also perfect for wiping excess paint on.

      Use them for gift wrap, can even draw designs on them to make your own cool gift wrap.

      Have you got kids? They make cool masks, drawing paper, kites, paper mache etc.

      Least that's what we do with them at our place.

    • greywarshark 12.4
      14 February 2020 at 6:21 pm

      Don't make excuses for having a poke at Jacinda you coward John Clover.If you want a fair fight, call her out, and have seconds. Otherwise leave her alone, she is doing a fair job, and if you find fault with her, you will just have to step up and do the task yourself, obviously there is no-one better.-

      • john clover 12.4.1
        15 February 2020 at 10:19 am

        I heard her going on about Plastic bags so she is the one I blame for the stupid ban etc I walk with sticks, two of them, so a plastic bag was very handy for carrying things….. never mind so people simply do not care until they have problems 🙂

        paper bags do not screw up and fit in a pocket like plastic

        • Cinny 12.4.1.1
          15 February 2020 at 10:53 am

          John, sounds like you need a backpack.

        • veutoviper 12.4.1.2
          15 February 2020 at 11:34 am

          John, as I also have to often use one or two walking sticks or crutches these days due to deteriorating mobility from autoimmune disease, I understand exactly what you are saying re plastic bags being useful for carrying things – and why you get your groceries delivered. Presumably like me you are no longer able to garden, compost etc etc. There are some on here who have no understanding that some of us are just not able to do such things even if we would like to and miss being able to do so. Do you have neighbours etc who are involved in local primary schools, play centres etc? If so, they may be interested in the bags for school projects etc. Or neighbours, friends, caregivers may be willing to drop them off to a foodbank or even in a foodbank bin at the supermarket. I actually spoke to one of my neighbours who works at a foodbank about paper bags and she said most foodbanks would be happy to have them and to drop them into their food collection boxes at the supermarket. cheers.

        • Alan M 12.4.1.3
          17 February 2020 at 4:02 am

          I reckon you're right John.

          Plastic bags 'free' from the supermarket were very very useful.

          They were never single use for us, we used them for all sorts 2 or more times.

          We never threw them in the sea or rivers, but disposed if them in the rubbish bin.

          On the environment cost, I'm not sure cutting down trees and toxic high water use paper processing + weight of transport is better.

          Or cotton production environment cost + the need to wash bags using water and chemicals and power…

          I assume a scientist somewhere has done a proper comparison and would love to see it to be convinced.

          Also…. New plastic bags seem much safer for sterile food use, than mouldy or dirty old cotton or paper bags?

    • Pingao 12.5
      14 February 2020 at 6:40 pm

      I still have some of the small thin single use plastic bags for fruit and veges – I just treat them with care and empty them out as soon as I get home and put them back in the supermarket shopping bags ready for next time.

      I've been trying to cut down on plastic for years and it takes a while to adapt. Basically, I have ditched or burnt in a very hot log-burner all the plastic bags and clingwrap etc so I am "forced" to find alternatives. I try to think of it as – any plastic that comes in to the house can never leave as if I live in a closed system. It doesn't work 100% of course but it is a good place to start. We try just to do without if it's not too hard – don't need to have every foodstuff in the house every single day of the year.

      Basically it's an experiment at this stage – the goal is nothing (unrecyclable) leaves the house except via a pipe! This makes you really think about alternatives and what you buy. It would be easier if we were not so fond of meat and dairy and the dog. Of course it's very helpful that we have a garden and a log burner.

  13. Billy 13
    14 February 2020 at 12:14 pm

    Hi Lyn, it may sound crazy but you can store carrots in soil! I’m not sure when the nearest soil would be in your 3rd story 55m2 apartment, but you could always find yourself some sort of soil-filled container and stick your limp carrot in there. I understand that won’t be everybody’s cup of tea. And ideally your carrots don’t start out limp of course, but not all of us have access to the natural vigor a garden produces.

    • lprent 13.2
      14 February 2020 at 3:04 pm

      I can see that having a large tray of earth to put the weekly broccoli, capsicum, carrots, courgettes, celery, in the middle of our small living room / office space will work.

      Tripping over that with hot cup of coffee will enhance our lives.

      no

      • Billy 13.2.1
        14 February 2020 at 3:25 pm

        That was a bit of a joke.

        It’s hard to know what to do with you, lprent, as you've painted yourself into a corner apartment. But your example provides the blog with a great problem-solving exercise.

        It also brings up how design practices and city planning lead to environmental problems down the line.

        I think you're overstating things. You just don't prioritize food. You're not much of a cook? Not to be rude, but you would find a way if you cared about good food, I think. Seen plenty of poor Italians in their little apartments make it work.

        Personally I’d like to see you whipped for crimes against vegetables.

        • lprent 13.2.1.1
          14 February 2020 at 7:40 pm

          You just don't prioritize food. You're not much of a cook?

          You're correct and incorrect.

          I don't prioritize food. I also do most of the shopping and cooking. Which is why I'm interested in food preservation. And it allows my younger partner more time to deal with the learning curve as she makes a living.

          These apparently contradictory statements relate to my constrained time. I can and do cook relatively bland, nutritional and non-exciting nearly fresh food in about 20-25 minutes and can do that day after day, week after week. Little or no prep. I usually do it immediately after I get home. It is part of the check the blog and personal email routine.

          Orange Kumara, not dead broc, beans, carrots, corn cob, onions, courgettes, the occasional baked spud (takes too long to cook even after you nuke first), chicken breast, rump pork, eye fillet steak, the odd sausages or mince, ciabatta pockets, etc… Not real spices and definitely not much time.

          Seen plenty of poor Italians in their little apartments make it work.

          So have I. God knows I have spent enough time there in the last 5 years. They just have more time than I do because they don't spend so much time writing code. Instead I write it for them.

          Personally I’d like to see you whipped for crimes against vegetables.

          Personally I prefer if you just spent more time thinking about the problem and less being a waste of time dimwit.

          • Billy 13.2.1.1.1
            14 February 2020 at 8:49 pm

            fair enough!

            You're a busy man, with two jobs. But that's also a choice. Shame there isn't a better solution for you, though, in your self-imposed circumstances.

            I’ll go back to being a dimwit in my garden.

            Horas non-numero nisi serenas.

  14. Rae 14
    14 February 2020 at 6:53 pm

    Oh duh! Bread bags

    • lprent 14.1
      14 February 2020 at 7:43 pm

      Like this?

      https://www.onyalife.com/product/reusable-bread-bag/

      Actually those look perfect for the fridge… Hunting a local supplier.

      yes

      • Rae 14.1.1
        15 February 2020 at 11:47 am

        You could try, but I was thinking more along the lines of your standard bag most bread comes in. I have one of those bread bags, not much chop for keeping bread fresh, best is one of those oval stainless steel roasting pans with a lid, unwrapped. I do buy my bread from a local baker who does kickass sourdoughs, not sliced, but occasionally need to buy a Ploughmans or similar. I save those bags for whatever use I might have for them. Fruit and veg last best in sealable containers I find, even avocado. Secret seems to be stopping air movement, not simply eliminating air, so size in this instance is not critical. I sometimes will buy one of those coleslaw mixes as even half a cabbage is way too much for me, it lasts really well washed and well drained and in a plastic container in the fridge. I find containers do a better job than plastic bags tbh

      • Rae 14.1.2
        15 February 2020 at 11:50 am

        Try http://www.dirtyhippie.co.nz I get my shampoo and conditioner bars from them, and I am pretty sure I got my bread bag from them

        • veutoviper 14.1.2.1
          15 February 2020 at 12:10 pm

          Thanks for the link. The bread bag seems to be sold out at present but the pack of 4 reusable fruit and vege bags at $13 seems a good mix of types and size, and good value.

          I also have a pack of five close mesh reusable fruit/vege bags bought from New World for $5 (red or green in a small recycled cardboard box) which ,while all the same size, are about the size of a plastic bread bag. They are great for shopping for fruit and vege and for storing/hanging those items (apples, oranges etc) that do not need to be refridgerated but hopeless for fridge storage.

  15. adam 15
    14 February 2020 at 9:29 pm

    I've been using these, easy to clean as well.

    https://www.mightyape.co.nz/product/banana-bag/20938691

  16. WeTheBleeple 16
    15 February 2020 at 12:06 pm

    If I was still a worm farmer I'd happily pick up the organic waste of 60 apartments each week. At that volume it's a valuable resource. I hope someone follows this through and finds you a client e.g. a city farm or community garden to take the waste and turn it to compost.

    Being time poor is a common issue for many city folks I know. I'd love to see our lawn-obsessed city birth some landscapers who come in and build then tend vegetable gardens and small food forests on clients properties, rather than the usual shrub and lawn layout. This might solve issues allowing those who want gardens but are time poor to have them. If we're paying so much for contractors, why not useful contractors whose activities offset their expense. Excess food can always be used to help the homeless, befriend the neighbors, and supply the shelters. It might even be sold on by folks like Oooby's.

  17. df 17
    15 February 2020 at 3:02 pm

    Why do you have two fridges? Seriously interested.