The new world order

Written By: - Date published: 10:32 am, March 2nd, 2025 - 130 comments
Categories: Donald Trump, International, Peace, Ukraine, war - Tags:

I am sure you have seen the video of Donald Trump’s interaction with Ukraine leader Volodymyr Zelensky yesterday in the Oval Office.

It was quite a strange experience. Each week I think that Trump cannot do something more outrageous but each week he proves me wrong.

Yesterday was the worst I have witnessed from him.

It started off relatively well. These initial press events are meant to be chances for photo opportunities and some relatively bland comments before the real conversation starts behind closed doors.

But the lead up to this event was not great.

Two weeks ago Trump publicly accused Zelensky of being a dictator after Zelensky had accused Trump of repeating Russian talking points. Trump clearly does not like it when people stand up to him.

And Trump talking to Putin about how to end the Ukraine war and not talking to Zelensky was hardly encouraging to the Ukranian people.

The press conference set up was bizarre.

AP and Reuters were barred from the meeting. But a member of Russia’s state-owned news agency gained access to the Oval Office even though he did not have authority to attend. And Marjorie Taylor Green’s boyfriend, Real America’s Voice host Brian Glenn was allowed a question where he insulted Zelansky about his choice of clothes.

The meeting had the feel of a set up. Part way through JD Vance launched into Zelensky about not showing gratitude and seeking to litigate matters in front of the media. Zelensky had been trying to respond to suggestions that Ukraine should engage in diplomacy with Russia.

Zelensky had no option but to object to what was being said. The war has resulted in more than 12,300 civilians being killed and large tracts of the country have been wrecked. There is now way he could concede blame on the part of the Ukraine for what happened.

Zelensky was clearly tired and although his English is good his responses were not as sharp or as quick as would have been ideal.

Earlier in the week Emmanuel Macron and Keir Starmer showed how to contradict Trump when he says something that is clearly wrong. Do it quickly and with humour and at the same time humour him and make him think he is in charge. Zelensky for the reasons set out above was not able to do this.

But humouring a man child who is in control of the world’s richest and most armed nation should not be something that leaders should have to think about.

According to the Guardian the basic problem was that Zelensky had pushed for security guarantees as part of the deal for Ukraine minerals immediately before the meeting occurred.

From the Guardian:

The [US] officials had told their Ukrainian counterparts in advance of the meeting that Trump wanted to sign an economic partnership this week at a ministerial level, as aides worked on the details about security guarantees.

Trump saw the minerals deal as the first phase of a broader economic partnership and told aides it showed the US was effectively making a commitment on security guarantees, because the agreement deal would mean the US had a vested interest in Ukraine’s economic prosperity.

The officials believed that had all been communicated to Ukraine, as was the advice that senators gave Zelensky on Friday morning to praise Trump and not litigate the issue of wanting stronger security guarantees to his face.

The events in front of the camera felt like a setup as punishment for Ukraine not meekly surrendering its mineral wealth. Refusing to be shaken down for your mineral wealth is something that should be expected of a country’s leader.

The rest of the world have since rallied behind Zelensky and Ukraine and expressed support.

But we are seeing something that I thought we would never see. A United States solidly aligned with Russia against the Western World and Western values.

130 comments on “The new world order ”

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  1. tWig 1
    2 March 2025 at 11:00 am

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/mar/01/uk-gives-royal-welcome-to-zelenskyy-after-white-house-meltdown

    ‘Keir Starmer will also host European heads of government and the leaders of Canada and Turkey at a special defence summit aimed at presenting a united front on the Ukraine crisis.’

  2. tWig 2
    2 March 2025 at 11:08 am

    Guardian: How JD Vance emerged as the chief saboteur of the transatlantic alliance

    And who is pulling Vance's strings? Thiel, still? Why was Vance at this meeting, anyway? Is Trump past it, and needs a handler to keep him on track?

    “That was a train wreck by design,” said Sam Greene, a professor of Russian politics at King’s College London. “The quiet conversation since Munich has been about setting Ukraine up for a fall. If a real deal was going to be unattainable, right, that somebody would need to take the blame for it, and it would likely be the Ukrainians, right?”

    • tWig 2.1
      2 March 2025 at 11:19 am

      Trump is calling the interview 'great television'. He thinks he's firing someone on The Apprentice.

    • Karolyn_IS 2.2
      2 March 2025 at 2:27 pm

      Does Thiel pull Vance strings, or was he just initially Vance's funder associated with neo-reactionary (NRx) politics as outline by Curtis Yarvin?

      This from The Conversation:

      "The current order, Vance proclaimed in a podcast interview, will meet its “inevitable collapse.”

      “There’s this guy, Curtis Yarvin, who has written about some of these things,” Vance added."

      The New Republic: "Where J.D. Vance Gets His Weird, Terrifying Techno-Authoritarian Ideas"

      "Yes, Peter Thiel was the senator’s benefactor. But they’re both inspired by an obscure software developer who has some truly frightening thoughts about reordering society."

      "Yarvin’s disturbing manifestos have earned him influential followers, chief among them: tech billionaire Peter Thiel and his onetime Silicon Valley protégé Senator J.D. Vance, whom the Republican Party just nominated to be Donald Trump’s vice president. If Trump wins the election, there is little doubt that Vance will bring Yarvin’s twisted techno-authoritarianism to the White House, and one can imagine—with horror—what a receptive would-be autocrat like Trump might do with those ideas."

      • tWig 2.2.1
        2 March 2025 at 3:04 pm

        Well, Thiel had the money for Vance's stratospheric political rise. 'Follow the money' I say.

      • Melsco 2.2.2
        3 March 2025 at 5:33 pm

        I’ve been reading about Thiel and Yarvin for some time. Both are very weird and repulsive bogeymen. They attract plenty more like them. A bit like vampires though, they need lots of exposure to the light [deleted]

        [no violence against people rhetoric, even as a joke, and even against repulsive people – weka]

        [from the site Policy: “Directly or indirectly advocating violence in any shape or form (including ‘jest’ and advocating self-harm) to individuals or groups is simply not allowed. Moderators will have a no-tolerance humourless response as the only possible response. If you want to talk about political conflicts around the world, then do so being mindful of this proscription.”]

  3. tWig 3
    2 March 2025 at 11:13 am

    Another Gd article on the response in the US press and internationally:

    “If anyone is gambling with World War III, his name is Vladimir Putin,” said Macron, after Trump complained that Zelenskyy had been overly negative about the Russian dictator.

  4. Darien Fenton 4
    2 March 2025 at 11:20 am

    I felt ashamed. I think of the people in Ukraine whose country was invaded by a dictator. Who, for three years, have seen war, deaths, destruction, daily lives disrupted. Who, even as Trump was doing his awful thing were dealing with missiles from Russia. We, here in Aotearoa have our own stories of invasion and the grief and sorrow we still live with as seen by the opposition to the Treaty Principles Bill. I awhi the people of Ukraine. We should never forget the lasting damage this will cause for the people, the families, the kids and those who are now in graves, or prisoners in Russia.

    • alwyn 4.1
      2 March 2025 at 11:36 am

      What do you suggest we should do?

      Send troops to Ukraine to help them? If not that then what do you suggest? Sticking pins in an effigy of Putin or Trump isn't likely to do any good.

      And No. I don't have any good ideas either.

      • bwaghorn 4.1.1
        2 March 2025 at 5:34 pm

        If it comes down to trump and putting needing putting away they take this 54 yr old for the fight.

      • Populuxe 4.1.2
        2 March 2025 at 11:24 pm

        Even moral support is something, though we should probably consider taking refugees as well.

    • Morrissey 4.2
      2 March 2025 at 12:47 pm

      You and your parliamentary colleagues failed to condemn the United States-run Maidan coup in 2014 that radically destabilised Ukraine. What we are witnessing now was inevitable.

      You should indeed feel ashamed.

      • francesca 4.2.1
        2 March 2025 at 1:58 pm

        Indeed , and where was the outcry when Poroshenko set Right Sector thugs loose on the Eastern Ukrainians when they refused to recognise the legitimacy of the coup. After Yanukovich complied with European demands to keep army units in their barracks the parliament was violently overrun and Yanukovich fled for his life.This is always euphemistically referred to as Yanukovich was removed

        The partisan western press barely commented on far right wing militia killing Eastern Ukrainian civilians, and for goodness sake …3 years!!!!This has been going on since 2014

      • Res Publica 4.2.2
        3 March 2025 at 8:40 am

        Morrisey, I am ashamed.

        I am ashamed that once again, liberal democracies have failed to summon the will to stand up to naked imperial aggression—cowering in their endless hand-wringing while autocratic butchers redraw borders in blood.

        I am ashamed that the United States, for all its flaws, once upheld an (imperfect) global order that at least restrained the worst excesses of tyrants, and now, in its decay, has abandoned millions to the ambitions of thugs and genocidal despots.

        But more than anything, I am ashamed of people like you.

        You—the tankies, the campists, the smug, self-satisfied apologists for war crimes.

        You who dare to call yourselves leftists, while cheerleading the very forces that crush democracy, silence dissent, and murder civilians.

        You whose only ideological compass is a bitter, juvenile need to “stick it to the West” at any cost. Even if that means excusing mass graves, naked-imperialism, and even the wholesale destruction of a sovereign nation.

        Your takes (if they can even be called that) are laughable in their dishonesty and grotesque in their moral bankruptcy.

        You screech about “Western imperialism” while licking the boots of a revanchist empire built on forced annexations, ethnic cleansing, and military occupation.

        You howl about “NATO provocations” while ignoring the millions of Ukrainians who are fighting, not because the West told them to, but because they refuse to be crushed under the heel of a sadistic, authoritarian police state.

        You posture as anti-war, but only when it’s convenient. When Russia rains missiles on apartment blocks? When Russian troops castrate POWs? When entire villages are wiped off the map? Silence. Or worse: justifications.

        Make no mistake:

        You aren't anti-war. You are pro-war crimes. You are not anti-imperialist. You are an imperialist’s most useful tool.

        You are not a leftist. You are a coward.

        When the bodies are counted. When the stories of the tortured and the displaced are written. When history looks back on this moment, people like you will not be remembered as fighters for justice, but as a disgrace to every principle you pretend to uphold.

        • Macro 4.2.2.1
          3 March 2025 at 9:47 am

          yes

        • weka 4.2.2.2
          3 March 2025 at 9:51 am

          thank you

        • Morrissey 4.2.2.3
          3 March 2025 at 6:07 pm

          You were doing well in your first two paragraphs. And then you wrote this:

          … the United States, for all its flaws, once upheld an (imperfect) global order that at least restrained the worst excesses of tyrants…

          That's sheer fiction. Wishful fantasy. Far from "restraining the worst excesses of tyrants" the United States in the last eighty years has —-either directly or through its fascist proxies—smashed democratic governments and imposed a string of tyrants on the world. If anyone doubts that, just ask a Guatemalan, or a Chilean, or a person from the Congo. Or someone from South Africa—it was a tip-off from a CIA agent that led the apartheid authorities to Nelson Mandela in 1964. Or ask an Indonesian about what the United States and its "rules based order" did to that country in 1965. Or someone from the more than 70 countries that have suffered extreme repression under the U.S. or its proxies.

          The rest of your post is simply ad hominem.

          • Res Publica 4.2.2.3.1
            3 March 2025 at 6:55 pm

            Good. It was supposed to be an ad hominem attack.

            I'm glad you managed to recognise it despite having the intellectual depth of a small puddle, and the moral backbone of a jellyfish.

            • Morrissey 4.2.2.3.1.1
              3 March 2025 at 7:01 pm

              Ha! Ad hominem is all you've got.

              • Res Publica …
                3 March 2025 at 7:14 pm

                Ye gods! You must be at such a lofty altitude on that high horse of yours I'm frankly surprised you don't have altitude sickness.

  5. joe90 5
    2 March 2025 at 11:36 am

    The events in front of the camera felt like a setup

    Walk on, nothing to see here….

    https://x.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1895710733801070971

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/russian-lawmaker-predicted-the-trump-vance-ambush-of-zelensky/

    WASHINGTON, Feb 28 (Reuters) – A reporter from Russia's state-owned news agency gained access to a Friday meeting in the Oval Office between U.S. President Donald Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy as they clashed about their different views on how to end the three-year war.

    […]

    A Reuters reporter saw some White House officials check reporter identities and allow the TASS reporter to walk in before the Trump-Zelenskiy meeting began, as the White House officials handpicked journalists who could cover the Oval Office meeting.

    It was unclear if the TASS reporter had been allowed into the Oval Office through a mistake by those White House officials, or whether there was a conflict between the press office's plans and the access decisions made by other White House officials.

    The White House did not respond to questions posed by Reuters about how the TASS reporter gained entry to the Oval Office.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/russian-state-media-reporter-gains-access-is-later-removed-trump-zelenskiy-2025-02-28/

  6. tWig 6
    2 March 2025 at 11:37 am

    An idea of what the French are thinking: '[De Villipin, former French PM] “We now have three illiberal superpowers: Russia, China and the US,” De Villepin says. “America can no longer be considered an ally of Europe.” But he warns that the US will not prosper in this disordered, survival-of-the-fittest world it is creating, “because they will be completely isolated”.

    'He sees Trump’s authoritarian turn as both a crisis and an opportunity for Europe to unite behind a new common purpose. “The consequence of this will be a European awakening of democracy. We’re going to fight for liberal democracy more than ever. Because the question now is really: sovereignty or submission.” '

    • AB 6.1
      2 March 2025 at 12:07 pm

      We now have three illiberal superpowers…

      India will make it four – meaning that any alternative more liberal alignments become even harder. Deal-based regional carve-ups into winner-takes-all rival spheres of influence appear to be the goal. It's not surprising – it's simply the outward projection of what are the most authentic of American values: the frenzy for money and the willingness to exercise raw power to that end. The best hope is that American voters expel the virus in a few years time, so we can expect the voter suppression in the US to be cranked up big time to prevent that.

      • Karolyn_IS 6.1.1
        2 March 2025 at 12:59 pm

        Yes. India's Modi was the 4th world leader to meet with Trump since the start of Trump's 2nd term.

        Their relationship is described at the above Al Jazeera link as a 'bromance. There is a thorny issue of tariffs to be negitiated.

        "But their newly announced framework went beyond import taxes, to include collaborations on space travel, international security and the energy trade."

      • alwyn 6.1.2
        2 March 2025 at 1:58 pm

        I remain surprised that Russia is still considered to be a "Superpower".

        The USSR was one. In 1970 it had the third largest population in the world and a GDP that was about 40% of the US and twice that of Germany or Japan.

        Russia has a GDP today that is less than that of Canada, about half that of Germany or Japan and about one ninth of the USA. The population comes in ninth, less that Bangladesh but more than Ethiopia. The only thing it has than others don't is a nuclear weapons cache. It merely pretends to be a Superpower in the way the Great Britain and France did in the 1950s.

        That is my personal opinion anyway, for what it is worth.

        The only superpowers today are the USA and China. The only one that could join them in the next 30 years would be the EU, if it chose to. India probably could but only in about 50 years.

        • Populuxe 6.1.2.1
          2 March 2025 at 11:28 pm

          Russia has more nukes than the US, resources, vast territory and the total petro-dependency of countries that hate it. It might not be a superpower anymore in the classic sense, but it is certainly more than a mere regional power.

      • SPC 6.1.3
        3 March 2025 at 8:27 pm

        India has its non aligned history (all while supplied by Russia with weapons during the Cold War) work on in process.

        It is seeking a FTA with China and the EU (not averse to a FTA with China). It will remain non aligned between Russia and the USA.

        Notably it is part of the "QUAD" and yet seeking a FTA with China, which Trump is targeting for tariffs (which encourages China to invest in offshore production).

        India needs these jobs in production because AI will prevent growth in tech sector/office work jobs.

    • weka 6.2
      2 March 2025 at 12:12 pm

      Isolating the US seems a strategy worth exploring.

      Also, Darwin's point was survival came from those that adapted, ie the most fit for their situation. The macho, survival of the strongest stuff is bullshit, and it's good to remember this about the US. They can still do a lot of damage, but their approach is inherently unstable.

      • SPC 6.2.1
        3 March 2025 at 8:36 pm

        The democratic nations of the UN should form a grouping that stands by the UN Charter

        1.collective security of nations.

        2.support for UN and global institutions.

        3.a replacement for the WTO, ITO.

        4.seeks reform of the UNSC – adding new permanent members (India, Japan and Brazil – regional groups AU, OTS, Arab League, ASEAN, EU) and having only two elected members each cycle.

        And votes for ending the veto power of the existing 5 permanent members.

        5.the group considers any UNGA Resolution vetoed in the UNSC.

        Three nations excluded from membership for breach of the UN Charter, Russia (annexations), Israel (annexations) and USA (support for annexations by Israel and by Russia in Ukraine and add ambition to acquire Greenland and Gaza and threats to Panama).

        • Morrissey 6.2.1.1
          3 March 2025 at 8:56 pm

          … Israel (annexations) …

          CORRECTION: Israel (annexations and genocide)….

      • Morrissey 6.2.2
        3 March 2025 at 8:53 pm

        Like Biden did in 2021 when he had the courage to stand up to the bloodthirsty clamour of the military/media and end the 20-year-long assault on Afghanistan, the U.S. is bringing another war to an end, and you're upset about it.

        Why? How many more Ukrainians have to die?

        • SPC 6.2.2.1
          3 March 2025 at 9:41 pm

          How is the USA bringing the war to end?

          By demanding Ukraine cede land to Russia for peace?

          How is Trump going to force the Ukrainians to do this, declare war on Ukraine and occupy Kiev as Putin tried and failed to do?

          • Morrissey 6.2.2.1.1
            3 March 2025 at 10:37 pm

            What's this "occupy Kiev" fantasy? The initial incursion (or to use the Russian term: "special military operation") was a reaction to ceaseless U.S.-instigated provocations. It would have been over in a couple of weeks if the U.S. and its "junior partner" had not insisted that the Ukrainians keep sacrificing themselves. Boris Johnson and hundreds of other British and American politicians have the lives of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians, and Russians, on their hands. Politicians such as Senator Lindsey Graham, who boasts that the U.S. will fight Russia down to "the last Ukrainian."

            https://x.com/search?q=graham%20the%20last%20ukrainian&src=typed_query

            https://x.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1800028275416424660?lang=en

            • SPC 6.2.2.1.1.1
              3 March 2025 at 11:56 pm

              Unaware of the attempt to take Kiev and why it failed and the retreat back north beyond the Ukraine border …

              And so to the Dugin Novorossiya play …

  7. tWig 7
    2 March 2025 at 11:44 am

    Reddit post Zelenskyy thanks Luxon for support

    RNZ last night also reported strong support from Albanese.

    • weka 7.1
      2 March 2025 at 12:13 pm

      thank god Luxon can so this one thing right.

      • Mike the Lefty 7.1.1
        2 March 2025 at 3:10 pm

        Until the trade threats come and then he will be kissing Trump's boots and begging forgiveness.

      • tWig 7.1.2
        2 March 2025 at 3:11 pm

        The reddit thread wondered why it wasn't a media statement. Probably to stop Luxon waffling; or perhaps to easily whisk away if Trump throws a tantie at Luxon.

        • weka 7.1.2.1
          2 March 2025 at 7:18 pm

          probably, but there do seem to be a lot of leaders tweeting support for Ukraine. Which seems unusual.

  8. Mike the Lefty 8
    2 March 2025 at 1:06 pm

    Trump conducts his presidency as though it is one big WWWF pay-for-view show. He thinks he is the Hulkster creating The New World Order.

  9. gsays 9
    2 March 2025 at 1:27 pm

    "But we are seeing something that I thought we would never see. A United States solidly aligned with Russia against the Western World and Western values."

    It has been 'seen' before,

    "Nostradamus states that the "Bear and the Eagle will unite against the Snake and Dragon". A possible reference to United States as the "eagle", Russia as the "Bear", China as the "dragon" and Iran as the "snake"."

    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mabusincarnatefr/nostradamus-ww3-prophecy-t5557.html

    • tWig 9.1
      2 March 2025 at 3:24 pm

      Well, the German adf would certainly agree with Nostrodamus's prediction of the Antichrist appearing from the east at the head of an ottoman horde! see popular claims at his wiki page.

      Old Nosty was very popular in the early 80s, too.

      • gsays 9.1.1
        2 March 2025 at 3:27 pm

        It was probably the early'80s that I first heard that.

        It has been so improbable right up till a few months ago.

        • roblogic 9.1.1.1
          2 March 2025 at 7:05 pm

          They Christian right used to think that "Gog and Magog", the evil empires from the book of Revelation, were Russia and Iran (or some other Arab bogeyman).

          But nowadays all that is forgotten and the American church is lining up behind Trump and Elon. There are also prophecies about a mass deception and apostasy in the church,

          The (incredibly stupid) "Left Behind" books portray the Antichrist as a smooth liar, but maybe he's an incompetent and corrupt fool

  10. francesca 10
    2 March 2025 at 1:47 pm

    I have a little bit of trouble with the "Western values" shtick

    What western values?

    As demonstrated in Gaza?

    The colonisation in Africa etc?

    Guantanamo?

    Chagos islanders

    The lengthy torture of Julian Assange?

    growing poverty and inequity, hypocrisy re climate change vows?

    • weka 10.1
      2 March 2025 at 1:55 pm

      A United States solidly aligned with Russia against the Western World and Western values.

      in context, it's the ways in which the West has managed democracy and allyship in the past century. Your list will pale in comparison to the fascists taking over large chunks of the world, esp a major superpower like the US being working with Russia. I wasn't alive during the last world war, but it's easy to understand that using all our capacity to preserve democracy is one of the most important things we can do right now.

      • Morrissey 10.1.1
        2 March 2025 at 2:24 pm

        The "fascists taking over large chunks of the world" did so with the support, often the instigation, of the United States and its “junior partner” Great Britain. Brazil, Guatemala, Chile, Cuba, Spain, Portugal, the Congo, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Palestine (plus at least another 50 countries) were all destabilised and undermined by "the West."

        • weka 10.1.1.1
          2 March 2025 at 2:29 pm

          learn some reading comprehension Morrissey and try not stalking in Rik slogan.

          • Morrissey 10.1.1.1.1
            2 March 2025 at 4:17 pm

            I understood precisely what you meant; I pointed out a fact that not even the U.S. government's most dedicated spin doctors would try to contest, viz., that the United States has a long and bloody record of supporting fascism, not standing against it, and of crushing democracy.

            The same goes for its pathetic "junior partner."

            By "Rik speak" I presume you mean that bloke on The Young Ones. I'm surprised that you didn't employ the more recent, but equally lame, denigratory practice of shouting "Park Life!"

      • francesca 10.1.2
        2 March 2025 at 3:17 pm

        We're not going to do it by slavishly insisting that the West , against all others has some sort of moral superiority under the banner of "western values"

        • tWig 10.1.2.1
          2 March 2025 at 3:25 pm

          And very few here do.

          • Morrissey 10.1.2.1.1
            3 March 2025 at 5:49 pm

            Actually, tWig, a lot of people on this forum do exactly that. How else would you categorise all of this fantastic rhetoric about the U.S. leading a "rules-based order"?

        • weka 10.1.2.2
          2 March 2025 at 6:26 pm

          just as well micky didn't do that then eh.

      • francesca 10.1.3
        2 March 2025 at 3:56 pm

        That smacks of "whataboutism"

        Sauce for the goose etc

        • weka 10.1.3.1
          2 March 2025 at 6:27 pm

          not really. There's are differences between what you are talking about and what I am. That doesn't mean that what you are talking about isn't important, it is. It means that if we can't recognise the seriousness of the threat, we won't be able to act against it.

    • alwyn 10.2
      2 March 2025 at 2:03 pm

      "The lengthy torture of Julian Assange?"

      What was that and where did it happen? I realise that spending years as a rather unwelcome guest in the London Embassy of Ecuador may have been boring but torture seems a bit over the top as a description.

      • Morrissey 10.2.1
        2 March 2025 at 2:20 pm

        Pretending to be ignorant is never a good look, Alwyn.

        • alwyn 10.2.1.1
          2 March 2025 at 3:10 pm

          Do you mean that the Ecuadorean Embassy is actually a known health hazard?

          • francesca 10.2.1.1.1
            2 March 2025 at 3:18 pm

            For goodness sake, he was effectively imprisoned in the Embassy, and as for Belmarsh prison!
            A mere resort?

            • alwyn 10.2.1.1.1.1
              2 March 2025 at 4:02 pm

              He most certainly wasn't imprisoned in the Embassy. He could have walked out the door at any time he chose.

              • francesca …
                2 March 2025 at 4:13 pm

                Yeah, with the immediate result of being snatched up and disappeared into a US dungeon .Some choice!

                Just like you having the choice to walk out on a railway track with an oncoming train

      • francesca 10.2.2
        2 March 2025 at 3:11 pm

        The Un special rapporteur on torture Meltzer

        Mr Melzer added that, because of his treatment, his health was at serious risk.

        "We could see that Assange showed all the symptoms that are typical for prolonged exposure to psychological torture," he said.

        https://www.bbc.com/news/world-48473898

        If you can't be bothered to keep informed don't bother commenting

        • Belladonna 10.2.2.1
          3 March 2025 at 7:02 pm

          Meanwhile, Russia and China routinely carry out actual torture and murder of political opponents.

          Try for a little perspective…..

          • francesca 10.2.2.1.1
            4 March 2025 at 9:03 am

            Oh, I see , more whataboutism .So what China and Russia does (so we are told)exonerates us from our own bad deeds

            They are worse

            Sounds like good playground ethics to me

      • Populuxe 10.2.3
        2 March 2025 at 6:03 pm

        Maybe the Ecuadorians made him put the toilet seat down once in a while.

        • Morrissey 10.2.3.1
          2 March 2025 at 7:09 pm

          Thanks for showing us that there are some people who are prepared to regurgitate black propaganda, no matter how absurd or demonstrably false.

          • Populuxe 10.2.3.1.1
            2 March 2025 at 11:31 pm

            Did you have your sense of humour surgically removed at birth? Actually, forget I said anything. I don't want to give the impression that I am interested.

            • Morrissey 10.2.3.1.1.1
              3 March 2025 at 7:16 am

              I don't see what's funny about political dissenters being persecuted or tortured, or someone repeating the lies concocted by British spooks.

              Have you thought of posting on KiwiBlog? You'd fit in nicely.

    • Morrissey 10.3
      2 March 2025 at 2:19 pm

      Blowing up nuclear bombs in the South Pacific. That's another "Western value."

      We once had governments that had the integrity to challenge those outrages: once in 1973 when Norman Kirk sent a frigate to Mururoa to stop them; French thugs attacked our boat but we prevailed in the end. And in 1985, we stood up to it again,

      Not any longer, however.

      • weka 10.3.1
        2 March 2025 at 2:30 pm

        Wait, did Kirk express Western values?

        • francesca 10.3.1.1
          2 March 2025 at 3:13 pm

          He expressed his own values against the nuclear devastation (by western actors)of Pacific peoples
          He, like Gough Whitlam was a brief shining light of socialism, sadly missing in today’s “western values”

        • Morrissey 10.3.1.2
          2 March 2025 at 4:09 pm

          By standing against nuclear bombs being exploded in our region, he certainly expressed enlightened classical humanist values. Political regimes, from Washington to London to Canberra (except briefly, from 1972 to 1975) to Paris to Moscow and most places in between, do the very opposite of that.

    • gsays 10.4
      2 March 2025 at 2:30 pm

      There is the continued cover-up of torture by our elected representatives, of the most vulnerable in our society.

      Out in the open, after being called out by United Nations Committee Against Torture.

      Another fine Western value.

      • tWig 10.4.1
        2 March 2025 at 3:27 pm

        Hang on, didn't Ardern call an enquiry in 2017 to spotlight that issue?

        • gsays 10.4.1.1
          2 March 2025 at 3:34 pm

          All good, we have had a Royal Commission.
          Eight years later those victims have had some weasel words. Weasel words because there is little or no recompense attached to them.

          Do you think any of the Ministers of Health Education etc, Cabinet Ministers, Solicitors or Attorneys General, from either party, over the last 25 years or any senior Public Servant will face consequences?

          I’m sure you are aware of the maxim ‘It’s not the crime, it’s the cover-up that is damaging.’

          • tWig 10.4.1.1.1
            2 March 2025 at 7:01 pm

            But it's Seymour's and 'cost-slasher's' Luxon government at the delivery end of the commission.

    • mickysavage 10.5
      2 March 2025 at 7:58 pm

      Western values do not include what you mention in my personal view although my response to Asange issues is complex.

      When I said "Western values" I meant respect for independent sovereignty and basic human rights. Russia and Putin's history suggests they are not keen supporters of these principles.

      • Morrissey 10.5.1
        2 March 2025 at 8:38 pm

        When I said "Western values" I meant respect for independent sovereignty and basic human rights. Russia and Putin's history suggests they are not keen supporters of these principles.

        Likewise, the U.S. and Clinton/Bush/Obama/Trump/Biden's history, and the U.K. and Blair/Brown/Cameron/Johnson/Starmer's history suggests they are not keen supporters of these principles.

      • francesca 10.5.2
        2 March 2025 at 8:47 pm

        Oh yes, the basic human rights accorded to Palestinians, the remaining inmates of Guantanamo, the rendition centres in places like Poland for torture, the appalling state of prisons throughout the UK and US, the basic human rights accorded to the dead children of Iraq and the respect for sovereignty when it comes to regime change, interference in elections,as in the US blatant insertion of Yeltsin in 1996, the annexation of Hawaii by force, the us backing of Batista to overthrow the Cuban govt, the disastrous overthrow of Mossadegh, Guatemala, the assassination of Lumumba, Allende and Chile

        A long and rich history

        The bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, along with the Serbian broadcasting station, the missile strikes on Al Jazeera.

        I forgot all those examples of respect for sovereignty and basic human rights

  11. fender 11
    2 March 2025 at 3:33 pm

    The whole plan to take ownership of Ukrainian resources smacks of economic colonisation by an administration more akin to a bunch of mobsters. Typical behavior from the orange shit-stain who has spent his whole life taking advantage of vulnerable people. The blow-hard narcissist can't even be truthful about the actual amount of aid the US has contributed, insisting it's 350 billion when the true figure is about 170 billion.

  12. francesca 12
    2 March 2025 at 3:54 pm

    Yes, a reminder of US actions in Syria since 2014

    https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2023/12/12/us-troops-occupy-syria-oil-congress-withdraw/

    More wonderful western values
    But I agree, Vance and Trump were a couple of bully boys .If you’re interested in peace , this is not the way to go about it
    They showed an apalling lack of restraint and diplomacy
    Reckless bastards , the pair of them

    • SPC 12.1
      3 March 2025 at 8:49 pm

      That is what Trump said

      The grown ups in the room knew that they were there alongside the Syrian Kurds who were managing tens of thousands of Islamic State prisoners in that area.

      To deter attacks by a Syrian Arab front created by Turkey.

      The United States has at least 900 troops in Syria. Syria’s internationally recognized government has repeatedly called for them to leave, meaning the US military presence is illegal according to international law.

      That government has fallen. The Turkish army also has a presence in Syrian territory, then and now. As does Russia (invited by the former government).

      https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2023/12/12/us-troops-occupy-syria-oil-congress-withdraw/

  13. Shanreagh 13
    2 March 2025 at 5:38 pm

    I actually think that Trump has no idea what he has done. He is reacting on impulse and that JD Vance, like a good little follower is amplifying Trump's actions because he hasn't a clue or because he is a bad fairy.

    My view is that Trump is demented. This is a very sad condtion and I have seen it with relatives, friends who have had dementia that

    a people with dementia often take a 'without reason' aversion to someone and because boundaries are down they may feel ok about saying/doing things they possibly wouldn't had they been in charge of their faculties

    b people with dementia have problems seeing the big picture so Trump may not realsie that a whole lot of bullying against a person that they believe is an insignificant person can be seen by others, with a bigger world view, as bullying

    c people may revert to type, boundaries are gone and once a bully always comes back.

    d I think he will be in denial that his actions put him in the same camp as Putin.

    e he has probably forgotten, this morning, being so adamant yesterday

    I am sure there will be other takeaways about dementia from yesterday's fiasco.

  14. SPC 14
    2 March 2025 at 6:03 pm

    The USA is adopting a global campaign against DEI governance in the democratic free world (also known as let privilege be maintained, to be inherited by the next generation, OK). Heritage remaining foundational.

    Thus the Vance attack on the (secular) EU, his agenda is the Christian dominionism side of this.

    For Trump, the unity of the EU sets an example of collectivism enabling the many to stand up to the hegemons like Russia and USA. He wants a domestic and international order of the few dominating the many.

    His sees himself as one of the alpha males, being of a dominant elite. While each plays the nationalist card, and claims to rule for the people – they do things like cut Medicaid and Medicare, while using tariffs (higher prices to consumers) to finance taking 4T in tax cuts for the few.

    Our current government is not that much different, which is the embarrassing thing.

  15. SPC 15
    2 March 2025 at 6:37 pm

    A new world order cannot be set by some of its participants.

    The Economist has already called the end of the 1945 age, largely created by FDR – defence of the free world and formation of the UN (based in the USA, with the USA as a member).

    We forget this is not what the GOP wanted (they supported appeasement because they were helping helped the Reich to win a war with Russia to end a threat to their capitalism). HUAC and McCarthyism (overthrow of Mossadeq etc) and the MIC and more (see Church Committee 1975) was their revenge.

    The Deep State went invisible. Their legacy is this Project 2025 regime. This is no dismantling of the Deep State, it is the diminishment of public governance by and for the people. The technological capacity for government of the people is now vast and AI is the cherry on top.

    While Trump is the change agent being used, Vance and others will compete to exercise the power that a post constitution republic gives POTUS. The GOP can only be restrained by Congress now (the House electorates are already gerrymandered, and they are moving to take control of their electoral system and US Post).

    Their fate is their own.

    But they are not fit for leadership of the free world – neither they, or Russia, should be on the UNSC.

    The free world needs to form a group of democratic nations that believe in the UN Charter (those that do not recognise the annexation of territory taken since 1949).

    This would exclude Russia, USA and Israel from membership. And as a group discuss how they can act to improve the UN.

  16. tWig 16
    2 March 2025 at 7:08 pm

    This link through reddit gets to Helen Clark's Q&A interview on the lead up in the past few weeks to intetnational events. Big fans of non-nonsense Auntie Helen there.

    “The reality will eventually sink in that a new arms race won’t take [world nations] anywhere”

    • Phillip ure 16.1
      2 March 2025 at 7:33 pm

      She is correct about that…

      …and strange to see the group hysteria setting in….

      ..with laughable claims that pouring billions into arms will somehow save us…

      …from what exactly…?

      ..and who do they think we could possibly defeat..?…after this big military spend up…

      ..feckin idjits…!

  17. weston 17
    2 March 2025 at 7:27 pm

    Well im off to get my i love donald trump best pres ever !! tee shirt THE ONLY YANK PRES IN YEARS TO OPEN UP CORDIAL RESPECTFULL RELATIONS WITH RIVAL SUPERPOWER Russia Good on him and heartiest congratulations Mr Trump .

    Less war war and more jaw jaw its only common sense .

  18. joe90 18
    2 March 2025 at 8:20 pm

    The masks are off.

    /

    BEIRUT/WASHINGTON, Feb 28 (Reuters) – Israel is lobbying the United States to keep Syria weak and decentralised, including by letting Russia keep its military bases there to counter Turkey's growing influence in the country, four sources familiar with the efforts said.

    Turkey's often fraught ties with Israel have come under severe strain during the Gaza war and Israeli officials have told Washington that Syria's new Islamist rulers, who are backed by Ankara, pose a threat to Israel's borders, the sources said.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/israel-lobbies-us-keep-russian-bases-weak-syria-sources-say-2025-02-28/

  19. Nick 19
    2 March 2025 at 8:27 pm

    At least Trump wants to end the Russia v US proxy war unlike the previous POTUS who in his last weeks authorised firing US long range missiles into Russia (seriously WTF!). As revolting as Trump is – at least he isn't playing nuclear chicken with literally the end of the world. All the geniuses like Keir Starmer and other 'leaders' wanting to pick up where the US left off 'supporting Ukraine' (feeding Ukraine into the grinder) are edging us towards nuclear armagedon can go straight to hell.

    • francesca 19.1
      2 March 2025 at 9:00 pm

      I wonder if Merkel, Hollande and Poroshenko/Zelensky are still proud of their flouting of the UN endorsed Minsk agreements.

      All of them admitted to having no intention, from the beginning to implement them .

      Instead they saw the ceasefire and agreements as an opportunity to build up for war.

    • Tony Veitch 19.2
      3 March 2025 at 10:22 am

      Yes, quite agree, Nick. How dare the Ukraine hit back at Russia!

      After all, Russia hasn't been firing long range missile into the Ukrainian cities for over 3 years now!

      I'm sure Neville Chamberlain would be cheerleading the present appeasement of Russia, if he were alive. I mean, it worked so well last time, why not give it another go?

      /s

      • alwyn 19.2.1
        3 March 2025 at 11:44 am

        Neville did change his mind later on.

        He continued, and even expanded, the armaments buildup in Britain in 1939 and he was the PM who declared war against Germany in September that year. However he never recovered his reputation.

        Neither will Trump.

      • Nick 19.2.2
        3 March 2025 at 11:56 am

        In this case the aggressor is the US, if they have decided stop provoking a nuclear super power Europe need to follow suit.

    • SPC 19.3
      3 March 2025 at 8:14 pm

      He is playing his own game, the end of the UN Charter based 1945 era – to return to the one of hegemony, where they strong take from the weak.

      Thus demanding that Ukraine allow the annexation of Russian occupied land, in return for peace, so Russia can return to the G8 and sanctions lifted. And this without any American security guarantees apart from American miners being present on both sides of the new border (maybe about 10 years afterwards).

      It is Putin who is playing nuclear chicken

      1.no evidence

      He said Russia would "proceed from the understanding" that the missiles were operated by "American military experts".

      2.A blatant lie about their invasion of Ukraine

      "We will be taking this as a renewed face of the Western war against Russia and we will react accordingly," he told a press conference at the G20 in Rio de Janeiro.

      3.changing their nuclear doctrine to intimidate those supporting Ukraine

      Earlier on Tuesday, the Kremlin approved changes to Russia’s nuclear doctrine, setting out new conditions under which the country would consider using its arsenal.

      It now says an attack from a non-nuclear state, if backed by a nuclear power, will be treated as a joint assault on Russia.

      We know Trump folded immediately, the weakest leader of the USA in their history – cowers before the strong and bullies the weak, to look tough.

      The French and British not cowed by Putin at all.

      https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0mzjm7knw7o

  20. thinker 20
    3 March 2025 at 7:10 am

    Sadly, when we have Ministers doing the loser sign at the country's citizens, then something apparently worse (the loser thing didn't get him sacked), a coalition leader literally taking food out of children's mouths, and spouting racial division, another coalition leader and his mini-me telling Mexicans to go home, all backed everytime parliament sits by the Prime Minister, what happened on Friday doesn't seem too much further down the continuum than what we have here.

  21. Chris 21
    3 March 2025 at 10:10 am

    Trump wouldn't have liked Starmer's embrace of Zelensky yesterday. 'If you're not with us you're against us'.

  22. Sanctuary 22
    3 March 2025 at 10:44 am

    New Zealand's search for security has always involved aligning itself as a client with the dominant global power, which happily for us also happened to be the British empire (who colonised NZ) and then the United States which in many ways behaved as the successor empire to the British. Who knows, maybe in a couple of thousand years the Anglo-Saxon hegemony of the last 300 years will be seen as one singular period like the Roman empire, a mighty empire whose capital moved from Rome (London) to Constantinople (Washington) all the while which its its various far-flung colonies and clients states remained indistinguishable in the material archaeological record.

    Therefore for NZ, the chief destabilising aspect of the US retreat into regional hegemonic isolationism lies in the reality that NZ is unlikely to be judged as vital to the interests of the purely transactional world view of Trump and the US Oligarchy that is replacing their democracy. This is doubly worse for NZ, because we have a proud tradition of not sitting back as "spectators in a war against ourselves" be that in defense of Ukraine or of Taiwan.

    Ultimately, the genesis of calls for greater defense spending now come from the position of now knowing that God won't defend NZ's freedom in any material way and neither, anymore, will the United States. So we need to rearm at the very least to create the ability to defend our home islands for an indefinite period and that means industrialising to build some sort of domestic production base for everything from uniforms to medicines to weapons.

    Building a military-industrial hub (perhaps around the Glenbrook steel mill & Tamaki light industrial area) based on heavy engineering and high tech weapons to produce advanced guided munitions, ammunition and weapons up to large artillery pieces along with the associated technology could provide significant numbers of good jobs and major export dollars, which would serve to offset the cost of rearming.

    Rearmament shouldn't be rushed into without understanding the implications to our wider society and economy in the short term. The only way a country of effectively four million people (I would wager we would lose a million resident and dual passport holders the minute we started implementing any sort of compulsory military training) could meet manpower requirements would be by a peacetime compulsory military training program which, if it were to be seen as fair in the eyes of all citizens, would need to be universal for all 18 year olds. The wails from the spoiled children of the better suburbs at having to bunk with the poor kids from the rough parts of town they've never visited would be a positive cacophony…

    • KJT 22.1
      3 March 2025 at 1:37 pm

      How exactly, is upgrading defence from a minnow to a mouse going to change anything?

      Helen Clark had it right.

      Don't support any imperialistic adventures. Even those of supposed allies.

      As the only effect we can have is a moral one.

      • satty 22.1.1
        3 March 2025 at 2:06 pm

        Yep, that's my thoughts, too.

        What countries would have the capability to invade NZ so far from everywhere, inclusive their own country? I would expect only countries with aircraft carriers and submarines etc. apply.

        Then there's a cost / benefit calculation. Invading a country so far away from their bases surely isn't cheap. What would they get / want in return?

        From what I can see, it's significantly cheaper to simply "bribe" some NZ parties, influence the NZ media and have a social media campaign to get a compliant government in place selling everything we have for cheap… probably under a "growth, growth, growth" motto. We definitely didn't have much of an issue to sell billion of litres of fresh water for $500 to a local council.

        However, we might want to increase the defence budget a bit to ensure we can enforce commercial rules around fishing and mineral extracting in our territory. And in case of natural disaster etc.

  23. tWig 23
    3 March 2025 at 3:47 pm

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/commentisfree/2025/feb/26/australia-china-us-relationship-trump-administration-impact

    For Australia, a middle-power John Blaxland thinks

    "Strong and broad ties with Indonesia and Papua New Guinea are critical. These have been strengthened but need to go deeper across business, education, societal and security links. After all, when we last faced an existential crisis in 1942, it was there. Now, though, there are ways to sweeten the connections in collaboration with other neighbours"

    Nowhere in that article is NZ mentioned.