This is what *ending poverty* looks like in New Zealand
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- Date published:
6:05 am, June 12th, 2023 - 160 comments
Categories: election 2023, greens, james shaw, Metiria Turei, unemployment -
Tags: GMI, Guaranteed Minimum Income, ubi
James Shaw, co-leader of the Green Party of New Zealand, speaking at the launch of the Greens’ new Ending Poverty Together plan yesterday,
The Governments that we have been a part of since 2017 have lifted just shy of thirty thousand children out of poverty.
But here’s a question: why not everyone?
Why not the remaining 45,000?
For too long, governments have been tinkering at the edges instead of taking the bold decisions people need right now.
If you’re not willing to take those decisions on behalf of the people of the country you purport to lead, then why are you in politics at all?
What we do to prioritise the lives and livelihoods of those who need our support the most should be a measure of every political party.
In fact, I would argue that any party that stops short of promising to lift every family out of poverty, is actively choosing to make life harder for thousands of people.
They are essentially saying to thousands of people who cannot afford to put food on the table, that’s it. That’s your lot.
Poverty is a political choice, and the Green Party is choosing to end it.
…
What we are announcing today is a transformational new way of doing income support that will lift every single family out of poverty.
It is a plan to work together as a country to ensure everyone has what they need to thrive.
Here’s how it works.
The policy
The fully costed and phased Ending Poverty Together plan. The short explainer is here. This looks like a continuation of their welfare and tax policy development for the 2020 election. It’s socialist af. I wrote this at the time,
The Green Party’s first major election announcement is a beautifully conceived social security package based in the concepts of manaakitanga and compassion. It insists on giving people income security and treating them well. It’s fully costed, and financed by taxing some of the assets and income of wealthy people.
The gist of the 2023 policy,
Income support: a strong safety net
- everyone out of work or studying will receive a Guaranteed Minimum Income (GMI) of at least $385 in the hand per week
- additional support for solo parents, and those with disability or in hardship
- the first $10,000 of income is tax free
- remove stand downs for benefits: everyone who needs income assistance gets it immediately
- all payments are individualised, which means if you are part of the couple, you get the payment independent of any earnings your partner has.
- the abatement rate rises to $190/wk (the amount someone receiving the GMI can earn before the government starts taking back a % of benefit)
- all disabled and unwell people come under a new Agency for Comprehensive Care (replacing WINZ benefits and ACC income support)
Tax reform: how the GMI gets paid for
- a 2.5% wealth tax on assets above $2,000,000 ($4m for couples)
- a trust tax to stop wealth tax avoidance
- a top tax rate of 45% over $180,000 (people earning under $125,000 will pay less tax)
- returning the corporate tax rate to the 2008 level of 33%
There’s a lot of detail here, including the complexities of support for families, so I’m focussing on income support for those who are unemployed or those who cannot work due to disability. There are lots of detail and examples in the full policy document for people to work out different scenarios.
A few key things stand out. The removal of the stand down period means that low income people newly unemployed, studying or disabled/unwell, don’t have to scramble around borrowing money or going through the onerous process of trying to get emergency grants from WINZ. This stops people dropping further into poverty.
It also means that people who have savings don’t have to use their savings for daily/weekly living expenses. Some will say this is unfair, why shouldn’t people use their savings, but so much of WINZ policy is designed to asset strip people at the worst possible time, and this is one of the least discussed long term drivers of poverty in New Zealand.
Likewise, individualising the GMI means that individuals have the money when they need it and don’t have to be dependent on their partner. It prevents families from having their income halved.
Here’s the bit that really speaks to me of the intention to end poverty. The plan is to replace the various benefits for disabled and unwell people with a new Agency for Comprehensive Care (this also replaces ACC).
- minimum payment of 80% of the full time minimum wage. Today that would be equivalent to $767/week, compared to the current Supported Living Payment of $385/week (both figures are in the hand). This cannot be overemphasised: current SLP rates force people who cannot work due to disability to live in poverty. SLP is the long term benefit for disabled people, and we keep them in poverty, forcing them to live off any savings and then sell their assets, and then subsist.
- income support is individualised, so people in a relationship don’t become dependent on their partner
Nothing has told me more about Labour’s ‘deserving poor but really you need to get a job’ approach to welfare than the fact that they have kept the SLP rate below what it is possible to live on. The bit they don’t say out loud is that people who are permanently so disabled they can’t work are consigned to permanent poverty. It’s mind boggling that this has never been addressed but the small amounts thrown the way of SLP doesn’t change the fact that if you cannot work you are fundamentally screwed. And there’s never been any good reason for it. It’s the major flaw in Labour’s welfare, as well as most UBI policies. Speaking of which,
Why it’s not a Universal/Unconditional Basic Income
It kind of is, but it has welfare bolted on, and it takes into account the different circumstances that people have, two major differences.
The GMI is for people that need financial support because they have lost their source of income. It doesn’t get paid to everyone. It is in fact unconditional, and universal, for those who don’t have income from work, in that unlike current welfare, everyone who is eligible gets it and there are no hoops to jump through. It sits between a UBI and neoliberal welfare in that it still allows for variation in circumstances. It’s a set rate, with built in extras for children, disabled, those in hardship. But it’s more simple and less punitive than the neoliberalised welfare we currently have.
The Greens policy is streets ahead of The Opportunity Party’s UBI policy, because the Greens understand welfare and don’t see it as an add on to economic levers around income insurance. Despite well intentioned policy adjustments in recent years by TOP, their UBI fails at the fundamental level of centering people instead of economics. The difference is centering people in need and developing policy out from there and then figuring out how to pay for it. Wellbeing and manaakitanga are the point.
The politics
As always, thank-you Metiria Turei, who started the ball really rolling.
I love it when the Greens do smart and this seems like they’re back and ready to go hard on welfare reform again. It’s James Shaw announcing the plan this time, but he is introduced by Chloe Swarbrick then Marama Davidson. This is a strong team, and Shaw is up front because it’s not the leftie liberals that really need convincing, it’s the business, media and political classes and they will respond to the man in the suit. Anyone still thinking that Shaw is a neoliberal shill really isn’t paying attention. Read the speech. Listen to what all three have to say. Look at the Green MP’s social media from yesterday. This is left wing, progressive, green policy. I cannot wait to see what they do with their climate and ecology policies this year.
So, lefties, the ball is in our court. If we want left wing action on poverty instead of neoliberal centre left BAU, we have the choice to support and vote for the Greens at this year’s general election.
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- Release: National’s lack of climate action taking NZ backwards
National Government’s backward-looking climate policy has seen New Zealand fall seven places on the Climate Change Performance Index to 41 out of 63 countries measured. ...16 hours ago
- Release: Simple reason for drop in emergency housing
When the Government says it has reduced the number of people in emergency housing, what it means is it is stopping people from accessing it in the first place. ...19 hours ago
- Govt’s child wellbeing strategy ‘shallow and shameful’
The Government is turning its back on children by not only weakening child poverty reduction targets, but also removing child mental wellbeing as a priority focus in their Child and Youth Wellbeing Strategy. ...20 hours ago
- Release: A historic win for Samoan communities
Labour warmly welcomes the Restoring Samoan Citizenship Bill as it passes its third reading, before becoming law. ...20 hours ago
- Government plan to reinstate live animal exports a “national disgrace”
The Government has taken a giant step backwards by reinstating live animal exports. ...1 day ago
- Pasifika justice as Member’s Bill passes final reading
Teanau Tuiono’s Member’s Bill, the Citizenship (Western Samoa Restoration) Amendment Bill, has passed its third reading and will become law. ...1 day ago
- Release: Minister of Education thinks New Zealand ends at the Bombay Hills
The Minister of Education has shown complete disregard for rural communities and their school bus routes in Question Time today. ...1 day ago
- Economists sound alarm on Government’s slash-and-burn approach
A group of prominent economists has released an open letter to the Government, raising grave concerns about the far-reaching consequences of its fiscal policy. ...2 days ago
- Release: Smoking numbers up under Costello’s watch
National’s repeal of Labour’s smokefree legislation has taken New Zealand further away from achieving a Smokefree 2025 and a smokefree generation. ...2 days ago
- Release: Call for Palestine recognition by NZ, Australian and Canadian MPs
Parliamentarians from Australia, Canada and New Zealand have written an open letter to their respective Prime Ministers calling on them to recognise Palestine. ...2 days ago
- Justice Select Committee opens floor for Treaty Principles submissions
Today, the Justice Select Committee has decided to officially open submissions for the controversial Treaty Principles Bill. ...3 days ago
- Power of the people on full display as hīkoi approaches Parliament
Today, Hīkoi mō te Tiriti arrived in Wellington, with thousands gathering to march in unity against the divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...3 days ago
- Hypocrisy as Te Whatu Ora contractor bill balloons
Te Whatu Ora’s bill for contracting and consulting staff has ballooned by nearly 20 percent under the National Government, breaking a promise they made during the election campaign to cut contractors. ...4 days ago
- Release: Growing pressure to scrap Section 7AA Repeal Bill
The newly released Section 7AA Repeal Bill's select committee report is further evidence that the Government should scrap it. ...4 days ago
- Government’s move to monetise access to nature a slippery slope
The Green Party is voicing serious concerns over the Government’s proposal to charge for access to public conservation land, released today. ...7 days ago
- Green Party condemns the passage of Treaty Principles Bill
The Green Party condemns the passing of the Treaty Principles Bill at first reading, and is clear that the fight is not over. ...1 week ago
- Stand Up for Te Tiriti
Te Tiriti o Waitangi is our country’s founding document. It forms the basis of the relationship between Māori and the Crown – and the Aotearoa New Zealand we live in today. ...1 week ago
- Release: Over 15,000 sign Labour’s open letter to Luxon
As the hīkoi to Parliament continues, Labour has sent an open letter to Prime Minister Christopher Luxon in a last-ditch attempt to get him to kill the Treaty Principles Bill. ...1 week ago
- Fast Track Bill threatens environment, climate and reputation
The fast-track legislation passing its second reading in Parliament is another step towards environmental ruin. ...1 week ago
- Greens join King’s Counsel in calling for Treaty Principles Bill to be abandoned
The Prime Minister must answer the call from a group of senior lawyers of the King’s Counsel to abandon the divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...1 week ago
- Chris Hipkins’ apology statement to state and faith-based care survivors
...1 week ago
- Release: Labour formally apologises to state and faith-based care survivors
Labour joins with the Government in unreservedly apologising for the abuse, neglect and trauma including torture in state and faith-based care and for ignoring the voices of survivors for too long. ...1 week ago
- Green Party stands in support of survivors of abuse in care
Today, the Green Party stands alongside the survivors of abuse in state care and faith-based care as the Government issues an historic apology. ...1 week ago
- Green Party calls for conscience vote on Treaty Principles Bill
The Green Party has written to the Speaker of the House requesting he enable a personal vote on the Treaty Principles Bill. ...2 weeks ago
- Govt move to exclude journalist risks chilling effect
The Green Party is alarmed by the Government’s move to exclude a journalist from covering this week’s apology for the survivors of abuse in state and faith-based care. ...2 weeks ago
- Without action, an apology will be empty air
For tomorrow’s apology to survivors of abuse in state and faith-based care to hold any water, the Government must not pursue the same policies that drove the abuse in the first place. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Concerns remain over tobacco interference
Concerns about the tobacco industry’s ability to interfere in government policy making remain, despite the inability of the Office of the Auditor-General to investigate the Government’s decision to halve the excise tax on heated tobacco products. ...2 weeks ago
- Urgent wake-up call on climate
The Climate Change Commission’s latest advice indicates Aotearoa needs to be stepping up on climate action. ...2 weeks ago
- Green MP’s Meme-ber’s Bill set to save the world
Break out the punchlines and dust off your meme folder: Green Party MP Kahurangi Carter’s Copyright (Parody and Satire) Amendment Bill was pulled from the Ballot yesterday. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Poroporoaki: Ta Robert (Bom) Gillies
Kua hinga te manawa kairākau o Te Rua Tekau Ma Waru Tiwhatiwha te po! Kakarauru i te po! Ka rapuhia kei hea koe kua riro! Haere e te Ika a Whiro ki o tini hoa kua ngaro atu ki te Pō ...2 weeks ago
- Labour, Greens and Te Pāti Māori call on the Prime Minister to block the Treaty Principles Bill
The opposition parties stand united for an Aotearoa that honours Te Tiriti, rather than seeking to rewrite it. Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori are working together against the Government’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Labour, Greens and Te Pāti Māori call on the Prime Minister to block the Treaty Principle...
The opposition parties stand united for an Aotearoa that honours Te Tiriti, rather than seeking to rewrite it. Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori are working together against the Government’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...2 weeks ago
- NZ must pursue independent foreign policy
The Green Party says the need is greater than ever for Aotearoa New Zealand to pursue an independent foreign policy. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Winston Peters must apologise
The Deputy Prime Minister should apologise to the public servant he named and blamed for something they did not do, and for misusing the rules of Parliament. ...2 weeks ago
- Government action provides Southland farmers more time to meet plan requirements
The Government is taking action to ensure Southland farmers and growers are not affected by unreasonable regional farm plan deadlines, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay, Environment Minister Penny Simmonds and Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard say.“Cabinet has agreed to provide more time for farmers and growers to comply with regional rules ...13 hours ago - Bill reaffirms Government’s commitment to crack down on serious youth offending
The Oranga Tamariki (Responding to Serious Youth Offending) Bill had its first reading at Parliament today. The Bill reaffirms the Government’s commitment to crack down on serious youth offending, Minister for Children Karen Chhour says. “In recent years we have seen an unacceptable spike in youth offending. “This Bill makes ...13 hours ago
- Critical milestones for earthquake buildings review
Fairer, more sensible rules about managing earthquake risks are a step closer with the passing of legislation and the appointment of an independent chair to provide expert advice, Minister for Building and Construction Chris Penk says. “The Government is committed to reinvigorating our cities and regions to support economic growth, ...14 hours ago
- State of the art radiology machine for Auckland
People in Northland and Auckland will benefit from a new machine for cancer treatment installed at the Regional Cancer and Blood Service at Auckland City Hospital. The MV5 linear accelerator, or LINAC machine, officially opened today targets cancer tumours with pinpoint accuracy. Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says this new, ...14 hours ago
- Foreign Minister to visit Europe
Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Winston Peters will travel to Europe for high-level talks with France, Germany and the United Kingdom next week. "Since taking office almost a year ago, the Coalition Government has emphasised the importance we place on New Zealand's traditional and likeminded diplomatic and ...14 hours ago
- First arrests made under gang patch ban
Police have made their first arrests under the new gang patch legislation, with two gang members arrested, says Police Minister Mark Mitchell. “Just before 11 this morning, Police in Wairoa apprehended a gang member for wearing a patch to the supermarket. He has been arrested and will now face enforcement ...16 hours ago
- Better support for victims of sexual violence
The Government is proposing two major changes to name suppression laws that will put the views of victims of sexual violence first, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “We are committed to restoring law and order and these two proposed changes will help ensure the victims of crime are put at ...17 hours ago
- Government moving forward with Regional Deals
Cabinet has agreed to invite all regions to submit proposals for Regional Deals between central and local government that drive economic growth and deliver the infrastructure our country needs, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown and Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop say. Inviting all regions to propose a Regional Deal that boosts ...17 hours ago
- MSA pilot participant update
One of the ten young men selected to participate in the Military-Style Academy Pilot has allegedly reoffended. Children’s Minister Karen Chhour is disappointed but says it would be naïve to think that none of these young men would reoffend. “I’m saddened that this young person has not taken this opportunity ...18 hours ago
- Attendance rates increase, again
Associate Education Minister David Seymour says that school attendance is continuing to rise. In Term 3 of 2024 51.3 per cent of students attended school regularly, an increase of 5.3 percentage points from 46 per cent in Term 3 of 2023. “This Government has prioritised student attendance and it is ...19 hours ago
- Improving the lives of young New Zealanders
Ensuring New Zealand is the best place in the world for children and young people is the vision at the heart of the Government’s new Child and Youth Strategy, Child Poverty Reduction Minister Louise Upston says. “Childhood represents a huge opportunity to set people on a positive path towards living ...22 hours ago
- Government continues work to reinstate livestock exports by sea
The Government is reinstating the trade of livestock exports by sea while ensuring the highest standards of animal welfare, says Associate Minister of Agriculture Andrew Hoggard.“The Government will introduce legislation changes to reinstate the trade, enhance oversight, and strengthen requirements for exporters to identify risks and manage the welfare of ...1 day ago
- Speech to the National Quality Forum 2024
Tēnā koutou katoa – it is a pleasure to be here today. I would like to begin by acknowledging the important leadership role you all play in ensuring a quality health system New Zealanders can trust. There is enormous clinical expertise in this room covering a wide range of disciplines. ...2 days ago
- New Zealand’s COP29 National Statement
Tēnā koutou katoa. Mr President, Excellencies, Delegates. New Zealand, and all nations represented here today, are already dealing with the impacts of climate change. Our households, businesses, and economies are bearing the costs of its effects. The choices we make now will shape the severity of these impacts for generations ...2 days ago
- Latest Quarterly Investment Report released
The Government has released its second Quarterly Investment Report (QIR) which shows substantial work still to be done by agencies to improve investment reporting and meet the Government’s expectations, Infrastructure and Acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “New Zealand has significant infrastructure and investment needs. The Government is determined to get ...2 days ago
- New Zealand supporting loss and damage fund
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced New Zealand will contribute NZ$10 million to the new Fund for Responding to Loss and Damage while at the annual United Nations Climate Change Conference (COP29) in Baku, Azerbaijan. “New Zealand is joining the global effort to address the significant challenge of responding to ...2 days ago
- Gang crackdown begins at stroke of midnight
The free ride for gangs is over when the clock strikes midnight tonight, with tough new laws officially coming into effect, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith and Police Minister Mark Mitchell say. “Gang patches will no longer be able to be worn in public. To earn the right to wear a ...2 days ago
- LGFA increases borrowing capacity to support high growth councils
The Government is welcoming the decision by the Local Government Funding Agency to increase access to financing tools for fast growing councils to support greater investment in critical infrastructure, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown says.“Communities across the country are facing an infrastructure deficit and significant population growth is projected in ...2 days ago
- Temporary Traffic Management costs revealed
The Government has revealed that over the past three years, the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) has spent an eyewatering $786 million of taxpayers’ money on road cones and temporary traffic management (TTM), Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“When I became Minister, I was surprised to learn that that NZTA did ...2 days ago
- Jurisdiction of Disputes Tribunal to double
Legislation that will double the financial jurisdiction of the Disputes Tribunal from $30,000 to $60,000 has passed first reading in Parliament today, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith. “We need to improve court timeliness and access to justice so that Kiwis and get on with their lives. Court delays affect everyone, the ...2 days ago
- Protecting New Zealand from foreign interference
Legislation that will specifically criminalise foreign interference and strengthen espionage offences has passed first reading in Parliament today, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “It is normal and appropriate for states to interact and work to influence one another. This encourages cooperation and can have mutually beneficial outcomes. “However, the reality ...2 days ago
- Significant milestone for Canterbury Road of National Significance
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed news that the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) Board has approved funding towards pre-implementation and early works on the State Highway 1 (SH1) Belfast to Pegasus Motorway and Woodend Bypass Road of National Significance (RoNS). “Reaching this significant milestone is a reflection of our Government’s ...3 days ago
- Health survey results to help drive change
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says findings from the annual Health Survey highlight the need to continue driving better health outcomes for New Zealanders. The New Zealand Health Survey is an annual snapshot of key metrics measured from July 2023 – July 2024. Findings released this morning include: In 2023/24, ...3 days ago
- Final push needed to get to Smokefree 2025
A renewed effort to get people to quit smoking will build on what has worked to date and target the groups who most need support, Associate Health Minister Casey Costello said today. “The latest New Zealand Health Survey results show the daily smoking rate at 6.9 per cent and we ...3 days ago
- New diplomatic appointments
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters has announced four new diplomatic appointments. “Our diplomats play an important role in ensuring New Zealand’s interests are maintained and enhanced across the world,” Mr Peters says. “It is a pleasure to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the Ministry of Foreign ...3 days ago
- Next steps for Regulatory Standards Bill
Regulation Minister David Seymour has today announced the next steps in the Government’s plan improve the quality of regulation by opening consultation on a proposed Regulatory Standards Bill. “New Zealand's low wages can be blamed on low productivity, and low productivity can be blamed on poor regulation,” says Mr Seymour. ...3 days ago
- Red Tape Tipline goes live
Minister for Regulation David Seymour has today announced that the Ministry for Regulation’s Red Tape Tipline is now live. “We want to hear about your red tape horror stories. From today, New Zealanders will have a say on how they are regulated through an online portal,” says Mr Seymour. The ...3 days ago
- Youth Parliament 2025 announced
The Minister for Youth Matt Doocey has today announced the eleventh Youth Parliament will be taking place in 2025. “Youth Parliament offers a unique youth development opportunity to young people from across New Zealand to experience the political process and learn about how government works,” says Mr Doocey. “The two-day ...4 days ago
- Police stats show promising change
After nearly a year in Government, Kiwis have seen significant change across law and order with promising early results shown across some Police statistics, says Police Minister Mark Mitchell. “In August 2023, I told New Zealanders that if they had not started to see a change in public safety within ...4 days ago
- Better coordination of anti-scam efforts
With the launch of Fraud Awareness Week, the Government is committing to new coordination efforts across industry and government to combat online scams, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Online financial scams are a growing problem for New Zealand. New data released today shows that Kiwis lost nearly ...4 days ago
- Minister to consider 7AA select committee report
Minister for Children Karen Chhour will consider the recommendations made by the Social Services and Community Committee in its report back to Parliament on the Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill. “I want to thank the people who made submissions and those who appeared before the committee in ...4 days ago
- Defence Minister to attend ASEAN meeting
Defence Minister Judith Collins will this week attend the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) Defence Ministers’ Meeting-Plus in Vientiane, Laos. “We need to take every opportunity to engage with our international partners, given the increasingly unstable geo-political situation,” Ms Collins says. “New Zealand has a long-standing commitment to this ...4 days ago
- Launching the White Ribbon Ride
The Minister for the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence, Karen Chhour, was on hand to wish riders well at the start of the North Island leg of the White Ribbon Ride in Whakatāne this morning. The ride helps mark the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women, ...5 days ago
- Construction to begin on next stage of Papakura to Drury
Construction on the next stage of the SH1 Papakura to Drury project will begin early next month, with the contract for works awarded to Fulton Hogan, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. "SH1 Papakura to Drury is a key project that will drive economic growth and productivity, reduce congestion, and enable people ...6 days ago
- NZ signs trade deal with Costa Rica, Iceland and Switzerland
Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay has signed a pioneering trade agreement that prioritises New Zealand’s sustainable exports at a ceremony during APEC in Peru today. “The Agreement on Trade and Sustainability (ACCTS), between Costa Rica, Iceland, and Switzerland was concluded in July of this year and opens up significant ...6 days ago
- Government and iwi work together on aquaculture
Five new Aquaculture Settlement Areas will help ensure Ngāi Tahu shares in the opportunities aquaculture offers for Southland’s economy, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. “The Aquaculture Settlement Areas (ASAs) I’m announcing today set aside space so the Crown and Ngāi Tahu can assess their potential for aquaculture development. ...7 days ago
- Government launches review to ensure electricity market is fit-for-purpose
The terms of reference for a review of the performance of the electricity market have been released. The review, initiated by the Coalition Government during the power crisis in winter will look at whether current regulations and market design support economic growth and access to reliable and affordable electricity, Energy Minister ...7 days ago
- Speech to Social Investment Hui: Jack and his whānau need our help
Kia ora koutou katoa. Nau mai, haere mai, piki mai. Ki te mihi atu ahau, ki te manwhenua nei, Te Atiawa, Ngāti toa rangatira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Thank you, Andy, for your introduction. Let me acknowledge you as the new Chief Executive of the Social Investment ...7 days ago
- Minister of State for Trade heads to Brisbane for PACER Plus meeting
Minister of State for Trade Nicola Grigg has travelled to Australia to attend the PACER Plus Ministers Meeting in Brisbane. “Trade plays a critical role in driving employment, economic growth, and improving the standards of living in the Pacific Region. The Government is strongly committed to supporting Pacific Island countries ...7 days ago
- Proposals to modernise conservation released
Toitū te taiao – Our environment endures The Government is consulting on proposals to modernise New Zealand’s conservation management system, aiming to protect relevant natural areas while supporting sustainable growth in tourism and regional economies, Conservation Minister Tama Potaka says. “Today, the Department of Conservation – Te Papa Atawhai is ...7 days ago
- This week three parties stood together – can they withstand the storm to come?
There is plenty yet to play out, but the next election is at this rate shaping up as trio versus trio, writes Toby Manhire. A subplot of this week’s historic hīkoi mō te Tiriti has been the sight of the three opposition parties presenting a unified front. Te Pāti Māori ...28 minutes ago - All 33 malls in Auckland ranked from worst to best
From the low lows of abandon empires to the high highs of a mall done just right. This is the second in the Malls of New Zealand series, where we rank the malls in major centres. Next week: Wellington. A note from the editor: This is the hardest ranking we’ve ...28 minutes ago
- The cost of being: A clothes-mad 20-something who walks everywhere
As part of our series exploring how New Zealanders live and our relationship with money, a 27-year-old apartment-dwelling marketing exec explains her approach to spending and saving. Want to be part of The Cost of Being? Fill out the questionnaire here. Gender: Female. Age: 27. Ethnicity: Pākehā. Role: Marketing exec at ...28 minutes ago
- Newsroom daily quiz, Friday 22 November
Loading…(function(i,s,o,g,r,a,m){var ql=document.querySelectorAll('A[data-quiz],DIV[data-quiz]'); if(ql){if(ql.length){for(var k=0;k<ql.length;k++){ql[k].id='quiz-embed-'+k;ql[k].href="javascript:var i=document.getElementById('quiz-embed-"+k+"');try{qz.startQuiz(i)}catch(e){i.start=1;i.style.cursor='wait';i.style.opacity='0.5'};void(0);"}}};i['QP']=r;i[r]=i[r]||function(){(i[r].q=i[r].q||[]).push(arguments)},i[r].l=1*new Date();a=s.createElement(o),m=s.getElementsByTagName(o)[0];a.async=1;a.src=g;m.parentNode.insertBefore(a,m)})(window,document,'script','https://take.quiz-maker.com/3012/CDN/quiz-embed-v1.js','qp');Got a good quiz question? Send Newsroom your questions.The post Newsroom daily quiz, Friday 22 November appeared first on Newsroom. ...28 minutes ago - Daily crossword, Friday 22 November
The post Daily crossword, Friday 22 November appeared first on Newsroom. ...28 minutes ago
- China likely to strengthen regional relationships in response to another Trump term
Opinion: Recent discussions in Shanghai provide some insight into what’s likely to be on the table The post China likely to strengthen regional relationships in response to another Trump term appeared first on Newsroom. ...28 minutes ago
- Nuclear winters know no borders
Opinion: The immediate horror of nuclear weapon explosions – the blinding flash, crushing blast wave, and radioactive inferno – is well documented.But what nuclear-armed nations either don’t grasp or won’t admit, is far more chilling: how their weapons could devastate even countries thousands of kilometres from any mushroom clouds.The collapse ...28 minutes ago
- This week’s bestselling books – November 22
FICTION1 Kāwai: Tree of Nourishment by Monty Soutar (David Bateman, $39.99)Sample dialogue, all from one chapter:“That can’t be,” replied Taona doubtfully.“You were right. The pā is unnervingly quiet,” Taona murmured.“The Hākuwai,” Motukia breathed. “Our grandfathers told us they rarely saw the Hākuwai in daylight,” Motukia muttered.“Their fight would have been futile ...28 minutes ago
- Burma the flying elephant
After about two and a half years of planning and waiting, New Zealand’s last elephant has moved to her new home at Monarto Safari Park in South Australia.Burma and her “human herd”, that is, her keepers, arrived last week, and she’s settling in well, according to Auckland Zoo’s Andrew Coers.“Something ...28 minutes ago
- NZ’s membership of Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance in jeopardy
Senior ministers in the coalition suggested NZ’s membership will be re-evaluated if it restarts offshore oil and gas drilling The post NZ’s membership of Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance in jeopardy appeared first on Newsroom. ...28 minutes ago
- Raw Politics: Six months in a leaky Bill
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon did not meet the Treaty Principles Bill hikoi crowd, sees “nothing” of merit in the Act-proposed law but the Parliament his Government dominates will spend six months debating a “divisive” measure.That’s because he has accepted there needs to be “aeration” of people’s views on the Treaty, ...28 minutes ago
- Taken to the brink, Govt is now close to selling big Whakapapa ski field
Bidder Whakapapa Holdings walked away from the sales process last year, but says it’s now ‘95% there’ on a purchase agreement – so who blinked first? The post Taken to the brink, Govt is now close to selling big Whakapapa ski field appeared first on Newsroom. ...28 minutes ago
- Watts nears a landmark deal on global carbon trading
A framework for global carbon trading under the Paris Agreement is finally nearing completion at COP29 in Baku, Azerbaijan after years of halting talks.Climate Change Minister Simon Watts is one of two ministers tasked by the COP29 hosts with landing a long-sought deal on Article 6 of the climate accord, ...43 minutes ago
- Grattan on Friday: Marles plays a defensive bat on nuclear as the government rushes to get though la...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Richard Marles is an ambitious man who hasn’t given up the dream of one day reaching the top job. But, despite being deputy prime minister, his profile is much lower than that of Treasurer Jim ...6 hours ago - NEW POLL: Kiwis Overwhelmingly Support MPs’ Expenses Transparency Law Change
62% of respondents support the extension of the OIA to cover MPs’ spending, compared to just 13% opposed and 24% were unsure. ...8 hours ago - The House: Meanwhile, a week of passing law
The political week has been packed with worthy distractions, but all week Parliament has focused on passing new laws. Here are the highlights. ...8 hours ago - The biggest difference between Hīkoi mō te Tiriti and past hīkoi: More support from non-Māori
Analysis - The diversity of voices during the hīkoi was noticeable - from tangata moana to young immigrants to elderly Pākehā from the South Island. ...9 hours ago
- The House: Samoan citizenship restoration – ‘It means we belong to this land’
When the bill to restore NZ citizenship to some Samoans passed this week, Parliament's galleries were full to the brim with members of the community. ...10 hours ago
- More Delays In Action On Use Of Puberty Blockers With Children
Women’s Rights Party Co-leader Jill Ovens says the Ministry has put New Zealand children at risk by continuing to allow “off-label” prescribing of puberty blockers at far higher rates than other similar countries. ...11 hours ago
- Police Minister adamant he wasn’t aware of gang members training at gun clubs
That is despite two papers from police that raised the matter with him. ...11 hours ago
- Shorten declares himself ‘a proud moderate’, saying Australians ‘in the middle’ shouldn’t ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Bill Shorten has declared himself “a proud moderate” in a valedictory speech declaring parliament has the responsibility to ensure the extremes of left and right do not set the terms of political debate. Shorten, ...11 hours ago
- New ‘best practice’ principles for superannuation products are coming. We asked a panel of exper...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Matt Garrow, Editorial Web Developer Studio Romantic/Shutterstock We all know how important it is to save enough money for retirement – but what about spending it wisely when we get there? Even for those who have built up a suitable ...11 hours ago
- Government accused of betraying Kiwis’ trust over lack of consultation on live exports
The government has always vowed to reinstate live exports by sea, which was banned by the previous Labour government. ...12 hours ago
- 7 things you can do if you think you sweat too much
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michael Freeman, Associate Professor of Dermatology, Bond University ERIK Miheyeu/Shutterstock Sweating is our body’s way of cooling down, a bit like an internal air conditioner. When our core temperature rises (because it’s hot outside, or you’re exercising), sweat glands all ...12 hours ago
- Phenergan for under 6s is now banned due to hallucination fears. Here’s what to use instead
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Nial Wheate, Professor of Pharmaceutical Chemistry, Macquarie University Australia’s drug regulator has issued a safety warning over the medicine Phenergan and related products containing the antihistamine drug promethazine. The Therapeutic Goods Administration said the over-the-counter products should not be given to children ...12 hours ago
- A new stage adaptation of Peter Carey’s Jack Maggs is a delightful homage to theatrical storytelli...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Catherine Campbell, Lecturer, Performing Arts, UniSA Creative, University of South Australia Matt Byrne/STCSA Jack Maggs is a delight and a homage to theatrical storytelling in Australia. Based on Peter Carey’s bestselling novel, Jack Maggs follows the ex-convict as he lands ...12 hours ago
- The government has introduced laws for its social media ban. But key details are still missing
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Daniel Angus, Professor of Digital Communication, Director of QUT Digital Media Research Centre, Queensland University of Technology Ron Lach/Pexels The federal government today introduced into parliament legislation for its social media ban for people under 16 years. Communications Minister Michelle ...12 hours ago
- Archives NZ, National Library to cut 27 roles
The Department of Internal Affairs wants to bring the two organisations under the joint leadership of the Chief Archivist and National Librarian. ...12 hours ago
- Gang patch ban: Members warn of potential for violence to ‘erupt’ as new laws enforced
"I can't see this lasting unless they have a budget to lock fullas up in jail which I think is absolutely stupid, really it's ludicrous," Ngavii Pekapo, who set up a Mongrel Mob chapter 54 years ago, says. ...13 hours ago
- ACT leader David Seymour raises doubts about Waikato medical school
Government documents show ACT leader David Seymour told the government he was "dissatisfied" with a cost-benefit analysis. ...13 hours ago
- National’s Erica Stanford allegedly calls Labour’s Jan Tinetti a ‘stupid bitchR...
The Education Minister has apologised in Parliament for her remark. ...13 hours ago
- Labour backs new Police Commissioner – but warns against routine arming
The alternative to policing by consent would be a police state, which New Zealanders don't want, the party says. ...14 hours ago
- Youth on boot camp pilot re-offended five weeks after release
Children's Minister Karen Chhour said while it was disappointing, it would naïve to think none of the participants would lapse. ...15 hours ago
- In photos: People of the hīkoi, and why they marched
Hikoi mō Te Tiriti has come to an end, going down in history as the largest march to Parliament in Aotearoa. ...15 hours ago
- ‘Everything is becoming a culture war’: Jon Ronson on conspiracies and cycleways
Ahead of his appearance in Aotearoa, the acclaimed British journalist, podcaster and documentarian talks to Stewart Sowman-Lund about why people are still fascinated by the fringes. The last place I would expect to find Jon Ronson is relaxing in the countryside. The iconic British journalist and writer is best known ...15 hours ago
- Kia kaha Lebanon: NZ media only tell half your story of struggle
The United States has vetoed a UN Security Council ceasefire resolution — for the fourth time — in Israel’s war on Gaza, while Hezbollah demands a complete ceasefire and “protection of Lebanon’s sovereignty” in any deal with Israel. Amid the death and devastation, Joe Hendren reflects on his time in ...16 hours ago
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Excellent. Definitely a vote generator for the Greens. Covers many bases and implements more of the 2019 WEAG Report–e.g. abatement rate and individualisation. The COVID middle class second tier benefit where a partner could be in work, did not cause the sky to fall, so it is about time that 1964 style morality was dropped once and for all by MSD.
Excellent policy… possibly the best bit of policy in decades ..since the 80's.
And the brilliant part about it is that anyone earning under $125 grand…gets a tax cuts…
This is a sure vote winner for the greens…
And they are to be congratulated for coming up with such well reasoned tax reform..
This kind of policy could be a vote winner for the Greens.
IF they stick to it and stop the pointless unproductive bickering over genders and identity that just turn potential left voters off.
Agree with this view Mike the Lefty.
The identity politics schemozzle has/will cost the Greens. The effects of the No Debate BDM changes come into force on 15/6. There is still plenty of time for anguish a la Invercargill before the election, so still plenty of time to find all the signs for women's safe spaces replaced by those for transgender-women.
This policy to end poverty looks very promising…..now if they could add a sure fire environmental policy winner…….could be perfection in a party!
GC lefties and progressives have choices about how much they amplify GC issues during the election campaign, and how they do that. I can't see how undermining the Greens will help women. Less Green MPs means less more centrist BAU. GC election drama also risks Nact gaining power. It's not like any party is against self-ID.
when you speak of 'women' whom are you speaking of?
women as a class.
to pre-empt what comes next, you would reject solid lw socioeconomic policy because you also reject the GP's position on gender ideology. Despite the fact that all parties in parliament support self-ID including TPM and TOP.
This risks Nact gaining power, who will fuck over beneficiaries and low wage earners, increase wealth at the top end, and put major blocks in the way of climate action. Beggars belief that any progressive person would support that.
Weka, I respect you, and I take your point about not going on and on about gender. But it really does not beggar belief at all.
All you need is to have (or know) a child who you believe is in danger of doing something stupid and irreversible, and that will become your priority. Whether you are progressive, conservative, or martian.
No, I don't have any personal experience here, but it's not hard to get into the head of the parents who do.
I think you might have missed my point. You know I'm strongly GC right?
Say someone has a child who is in danger of wrongful transition. Literally all parties in parliament support self ID and affirmation only practice. How does not voting for the GP solve that? Worse, how does having a Nact government do anything other than make the situation worse? You think changing GI culture and law will be *easier under Nact? I'd like to see the argument made for that.
If you are saying that people vote on emotion or reaction, yes, they do. I'm pointing out the shortcomings of that approach.
I am.
And yes I am aware that you and I are both GC and see mostly eye-to-eye. I appreciate you pointing out your opinion on the shortcomings of that approach. The other opinion is: progressives will vote against their best interests and tolerate three years of bad policy if the alternative is watching your kid go through hell and feeling helpless. But I think I'll leave it at that.
it's a good conversation to nut out at another time 👍
Yes agree but The Greens have put themselves on the back foot to a certain extent. We saw Marama Davidson being so anti women that she was attending and speaking at Albert Park against those wanting to make their own minds up.
My point is/was that the policy to end poverty looks good and I would love to see a sock it to them environmental policy esp on pines as the perpetual crop/carbon trading being widened past pines, forestry clean-ups. If we have some really good policies on these two issues and a minimising or silencing on trans/self ID/anti women, while being pro safe spaces for women, pro womens sports the Greens may be able to recover some ground. Perhaps lots of ground if they remain silent on self ID/identity policies.
The point is that if councils/people become alerted from 15/6, as have the Invercargill City people, then they may not be able to prevent egg splattering all over the Greens.
I have only ever voted for the Greens as a party in national elections, tending to favour their candidates in the local body elections.
The reason for voting for the party was as a ginger group for Labour. This becomes fraught for me as at some stage the Greens had Self ID in their back pockets, I understand, when negotiating with Labour. My mind is not wide enough to think about what other nasty type unpopular policy they might have this time round. Hence the reason that I think to get back to being a good party to vote for, they need to ramp up really good policies such as this one for ending poverty, add a top notch environmental policy and drop off the weird and wonderful. Or, at least let us see the metes and bounds of the ideas they want included as part of a coalition deal.
I am not doing anything like allowing the NACTs to come through. I might vote Labour for the party while for a Green candidate …..I am not sure. The local Labour party candidate is one who shrieked outside the SUFW meeting in Wgtn when discussing the BDM amdts so I am hardly likely to vote for her. She will get in anyway as it is a safe seat.
Ending poverty is good, fair and vote enhancing policy from The Greens.
The Labour majority government pass the self ID law. I don't see them as particularly less ideologically captured than the GP.
👍
Ok, so this sounds like a centre left voting position. It's not about ending poverty or taking climate seriously (because Labour isn't doing either of those things, Labour is holding the BAU for the centre left).
IF they stick to it and stop the pointless unproductive bickering over [insert personal pet topic du jour] that just turn potential left voters off.
FIFY
that is what, 30 bucks above the current level of unemployment benefit, will it affect side benefits, will partners that are not in work and not counted as unemployed be eligible as currently a spouse/partner will not receive any benefits should the partner be above a threshold?
what type of support? Will it be tacked on the main benefits or will it be fringe benefits?
Wow, the generosity kills, but i guess its a start. And its about a saving in taxes of 1000 NZD, and not enough to even just rent an emergency hovel.
will this apply to spouses and partners of people who have income above a threshold and who are currently denied benefits on grounds of their partners income? Consider that these spouses/partners are not stood down, they are simply refused full stop.
Again, what is the threshold for couples? Would be nice to see, but can see that being dropped the first time govt has not enough money to dispense all that wealth. So really, not buying that. Also that is something that the greens could/should have tried to push through over the last 5+ years. I guess they had not enough currency cause not enough of them are in governmetn, right?
wow, 190 before tax, is gonna make a huge dent. It should be earn the money you need to get to min wage before any cutting of benefits happen. But i guess 190 a week extra is gonna bring bacon to the table.
yei, more employment for the kids of the upper middle class that just got lots of money to study something…….like gender 101 and self id.
All of that for a provisional tax on an unrealized gain that is based on the fact that government will set the government values for properties, or will it also include Savings Accounts, Shares, Kiwi Saver etc? So government sets a provisional tax for the owners of mortgages and houses or what ever ‘wealth’ they accumualated whilst working and paying income tax, gst, rates, gst, user tax, gst, etc, and always gst on all the things that they accumulated over a life time of work.
And can we mention that that is literally the policy Top tried to sell in 2016?
And despite it all, there is still not a single reason for anyone to vote for this 'environmental' troupe that things violence is a think only white cis male do (Marama Davidson), that fights 'Nazis' at women speak events (Golriz), that posts threads about non violent marches that sees one women doused with liquid, another had her jaw broken, two males arrested for physical assault (Chloe Swarbruck), that spend more money on a 'green school' then on homelessness despite a good budget being provided (James Shaw and Marama Davidson), and that is so supportive of sex work they promote it with pole polishing whilst starting one hopefuls career at earning a back benchers salary that of course will be taxed to the lowest amount any one of these guys could get by with.
But you are totally correct, between National, Labour, Green, ACT, TPM the female human being is shit out of luck. Hence for human females the questions really stands, how many dicks must i suck to pay for the provisional tax on my 'wealth'?
Still not voting Green for that reason. The party policy on Self-ID, the investment into gender ideology into education, health and opaque NGOs – the disdain shown by MPs to those who raise concerns – is enough to make me withdraw my support.
It’s also that I think the level of incompetence and ideological capture demonstrated on this issue, gives a fairly good indication of their ability and competence on others.
This is a very good point and was behind my view above
Yes it is trust, and intellectual capability that were found wanting…..I mean does any thinking person believe we can overcome/change biology? Seriously? If we seriously belive we can do this then why not turn ourselves to making gold from dross or wine from water? Or sure fire ways to remove nitrates from water?
because GI is an ideology based in caring about trans people. There are people who believe that humans can literally change sex, but most genderists don't actually think that but believe instead that gender identity is a better way of understanding humans than sex. I disagree of course, but I can easily see how someone can understand about the necessity of using science to remove nitrates from water and still care about the lives of trans people.
Further, I would say that most people in NZ have weird ideological capture when it comes to water (eg we see water as a resource to be used, and protected, but we don't see water as life). We're so steeped in this mind/body split ideology that we think water quality is about nitrate levels instead of whole ecosystems. This is the same thinking that both caused the climate crisis and is stopping us from doing the actions we know will resolve it.
"because GI is an ideology based in caring about trans people."
I don't agree. In conversations with people who support gender ideology – many of them are unable to articulate any of the current transgender perspectives – or understand the implications on the individuals they purport to support. This is especially true around the very significant impact on young gay and lesbian people looking for support from the current rainbow organisations.
If people are genuinely concerned about the vast disparate groups that now make up trans people, then their care is not predicated on ensuring best practice healthcare protocols, or age appropriate engagement, or clear support for those with same sex orientations.
I think the reasons for those supporting gender ideology, are often personal, but can be as diverse in expression and motivation as the groups under the trans umbrella currently are.
I was talking specifically about political party MPs and members (because of the idea that the Greens can't be trusted on any policy because of their GI policy). My understanding is that both Labour and the Greens have people who have trans people in their lives that they care about and this is a significant driver of the ideological position. (we see this with TS commenters as well).
My reference to nitrates was as saying if we can magic human bodies into different sexes we can magic nitrates away from our water. It was to belabour the magic thinking point by turning dross into gold etc
Of course I believe in whole eco systems and the actually the whole Maori world view on water, land etc
ae, but my point was that *most people in NZ (not you 👍) have very weird ideas about water and nature. Anti reality ideas. But they can mostly think about other things competently. The idea that someone holds strong gender ideology ideas doesn't mean they can't be trusted with other thought processes.
Molly thinks that the GP position on GI means they are incompetent in other policy areas. I'm saying this doesn't follow, with an example. And I will point out again, that all parties in parliament voted for the self ID law. So if a political party can't be trusted with government on that basis, we have no way of forming government.
Except, it didn’t spend any money, in the end.
https://www.1news.co.nz/2020/11/01/green-schools-117-million-grant-now-a-100-per-cent-government-loan/
That’s just one example taken from your inaccurate and misleading biased narrative.
$47 more/week.
Afaik supplementary benefits will remain the same for the meantime.
Abatement rate level rises to $190
GMI would be individualised, so the not working person would get it irrespective of whether they have a partner nor not, or how much that partner earns.
Much of this was covered in the post.
AFIK means you do not know but hope.
In the meantime, WINZ under a full majority Labour Government with the full support of the Green underlings is the biggest pay day lender in the country to the poorest people that are there because Labour fucked around for + years and has nothing to show for when it comes to the poor of this country.
no, it means I read that yesterday but didn't have time to find the reference. But here you go, seeing as how you apparently won't read the document yourself.
Meanwhile, you say,
Who did you vote for at the last election Sabine? And the ones before? The whole point here is that there are policies on the table to the left of Labour. And you are shitting on them (ignorantly too).
This is a good policy, one mistake the Greens should avoid is too tightly coupling the GMI and Wealth tax parts together. They are unlikely to get both in any negotiation.
The Green proposal is not the same as the TOP proposal of 2016 in any way. The Green policy is obviously compatible with the existing welfare regime, the TOP policy was basically how can we leverage welfare to get changes in fiscal policy through (some of which were quite destructive for existing welfare recipients).
Re solo parents, why not read the link to the main policy document? Benefits for families are complex, they've laid it out with examples.
People on JS pay $2,548/year in tax atm. That's how the increase to the GMI will be paid for. But the abatement rate is increasing by $30/wk, so people on JS who are looking for work will be able to supplement their income more than they can currently.
It's not intended to solve the housing crisis, that's a different policy.
Do you know what individualised benefits are? Did you read the post?
it speaks volumes that you sneer at this. Meanwhile, people who can work but don't currently will be able to more.
you're an idiot. The jobs at the new ACC will replace WINZ jobs. What the proposal does is increase income for disabled people hugely. It also removes them from the punitive bullshit cycle at WINZ. They also get supplementary benefits. What the fuck are you on about Sabine, you complain people don't have enough income and here is something really good for disabled people and you can't even acknowledge this.
What I'm seeing is a bunch of ideologically driven, ill informed whining. I don't believe you are interested in political changes that end poverty, you look like you want to sit on the sidelines and take potshots at people you don't like.
Of course i and everyone else who does not rejoice at that poor attempt at relevance is an idiot, Weka, all of us that reject this current Green Party and who will not vote for them are. Glad you told us and confirmed that for us.
actually no, I was calling you an idiot specifically because you made up some stupid shit about how the new ACC would just be about middle class jobs for uni kids.
Nothing to do with your politics about the GP but I think it’s telling that that is how you frame it.
Wot weka said..to sabine..
Addressing poverty – means to balance the percentage of the required costs of living and opportunity against the available income.
This policy is a poor attempt to draft poverty as relating to income – which requires state redistribution – using the crude yardstick of personal income and wealth, without regard to anything else.
Ian Taylor addresses this aspect in today's Herald – archived copy:
https://archive.ph/8X1A3
The really significant – and admittedly difficult to solve – ongoing contributors to poverty – housing costs, cost of living crisis, food energy and transport costs – are not adequately addressed – and any increase in these items will absorb the income increase for many, making it at best neutral – but likely one of those band-aids that doesn't stick for long before falling off. (You just hope the blood has clotted in between, but infection risk remains.)
What is needed – a policy that addresses that percentage balance of essential costs vs income – not nominal figures. One that doesn't put poorly evidenced assumptions into dictating solutions, which ignores the detrimental effects on those they do not bother to consider.
It's not a policy that inspires me. Although there are benefits to certain groups which are overdue, the overall effect I don’t think will be effective for all those that need assistance, and it may be detrimental for others who are struggling to manage currently, or are not the stereotyped wealth accumulators that they are being portrayed as.
This is silly. Political parties release their policies over time, not all in one go. This policy isn't intended to address those things. You've been commenting on politics long enough to know this, so what gives?
How would that work in practice?
Who have they not bothered to consider?
The ACC policy alone is a game changer for disabled people who can't work.
No government policy is going to be perfect. I'd like to see more detail in the critiques.
"This is silly. Political parties release their policies over time, not all in one go. This policy isn't intended to address those things. You've been commenting on politics long enough to know this, so what gives?"
Well, if you look back. I've not been impressed by their housing policies, or cost of living policies either. So, I'm consistently unimpressed – it that helps.
This is just another policy that doesn't inspire.
One constant is that I think the Green Party – along with other political parties – tend to frame problems in such a way as to be able to provide a simplistic – solution. The solution will "solve" the problems they identify, but not the underlying issues, and will often create other problems that are foreseeable but will be ignored.
This policy is not there to change the underlying factors of poverty but to garner votes and make this party relevant again, thus simplistic is good.
The greens used to be the third largest political party in NZ and now are hovering anywhere between 7 – 10 % in polls whilst ACT is polling 15 – 20%.
It is a very thinly disguised attempt at 'caring'. Never mind that Marama Davidson is Minister for the Unhoused, was given a good budget to spend on that and did fuck all with it.
IMO it wasn't a wise choice having Marama Davidson co fronting the new Ending Poverty Together plan.
Seems many dislike her, see below.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/487306/spike-in-online-hate-toward-trans-community-after-posie-parker-visit-researchers
The Disinformation Project is aptly named.
I don't deny that Marama Davidson is likely receiving a lot of online criticism, and even hateful threats from others. Unfortunately, that seems to be the nature and experience of online engagement for many. Prominent women seem to have to deal with this regardless of political or personal stance… unfortunately, many such women will always find someone willing to hate them publicly on the internet.
What the Disinformation Project does – is register only those occurrences that align with their preferred narrative. It doesn't surprise me that the report in the article is referred to from the experience of one view only. (There are a couple of examples posted yesterday on Open Mike (.https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-06-2023/#comment-1953654 ) of regular and commonplace threats received by women raising concerns, but no mention of this in the report). IRRC, no robust methodology was used nor link to source data provided. Happy to be corrected on this.
I had thought I'd bookmarked a good analysis of that specific report but it appears not.
Google – however – has provided a more recent and general critique of the organisation:
https://www.thelookingglass.co.nz/the-disinformation-project-is-infiltrating-unions-civil-service-journalism/
"…That’s why I don’t think there is any use pretending that The Disinformation Project is anything other than an actor in the (dis)information war. I can’t prove this – but state-sponsored, set up and handled by the intelligence community would be my bet.
They may be unwitting, recruited without ever realising that was what was happening – you can play to people’s egos if you’re smart. Or they may be witting – true believers, or even coerced into it.
Who knows, I don’t. But I’ve been observing the narrative of domestic extremism from the beginning, particularly in relation to New Zealand’s dissident freedom community and along with the The Disinformation Project, other academics and lobbyists, and random influencers online have been selling this narrative hard. And it’s working among at least a segment of New Zealanders."
My concern is that their influence on public discussion around the hate speech legislation, will be widely given credit by media pundits and politicians alike.
From what I've seen and personally speaking, it has nothing to do with her being a prominent women. The criticism is a result of her inaction, positions taken and comments made.
IMO she has become a huge liability that shouldn't be anywhere near this policy let alone the Green Party.
I agree.
I was commenting more on The Disinformation Project's narrative around it. But I agree that some of the criticism is more than justified.
With you there, Molly. I also question The Disinformation Project.
I agree with this point. For me it is illustrative of there being no perfect way of ensuring demographic or inclusive representation. I have felt that way the Greens leadership is selected puts a stake in the ground for diversity and so is worth persisting with. Like democracy generally it does throw up results that may not be as good as if the leadership was chosen from two talented women or two talented men.
The Greens will be backing Marama Davidson as she has come through their selection process/es. Fair enough too. Hopefully though, it does not blind them as to her ability/suitability and she is supported in the areas where she needs it.
So I agree with The Chairman about the need for a clear eyed view about her 'fronting' anything, especially given her past record of 'cis' this or that.
Many Kiwis seem to dislike certain political leaders – Clark, Ardern, Turei, Davidson. Certainly National and Act party leaders, from Key to Luxon and Prebble to Seymour, never appealed to me.
But enough about the last 30 years – "the amount of hate being directed at the Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson", Ardern et al. tells me all I need to know about today's haters.
Do you think it is wise she is co fronting this policy?
Yes. Do you think it is wise to have Davidson fronting any policy? Do you (being more left than most) think that the 2018 decision by Green party members to elect Davidson as co-leader has proved unwise?
It was inevitable, imho, that much hate would be directed at any Green MP advocating for increased redistribution of wealth as a way of addressing poverty and inequality in NZ. But don't worry, nothing will come of it – wealthy Kiwis have plenty of political clout.
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/16-08-2022/the-side-eyes-two-new-zealands-the-table
“Do you think it is wise to have Davidson fronting any policy?”
Not now. Not only has she lost credibility, she also lacks that on the spot sharp-wittedness required to publicly sell it and successfully win debates when challenged.
As for Green party members electing her as co-leader, I think some will come to regret it.
@ Drowsy and The Chairman
I don't think it is wise she is fronting the policy, she is not nimble enough, has not got a background in competently engaging on people/economic matters, I think Chloe with her enthusiasm would have been better. I feel that MD is co fronting it as she is co-leader rather than the best person to sell it.
The Greens have a way of selecting their leaders that pays great attention to diversity. Selecting to fan/encourage diversity sometimes does not make for the best leadership but that is often not why we do this method of leadership selection. This type of leadership selection 'speaks' to the people that here is one of them (female, Maori, etc in power, it is aspirational
Unsurprising, given your comments in this thread. Otoh, Green party members have had five years to evaluate Davidson's performance as co-leader, and her position seems secure. It wasn't the (re-)election of Davidson that went to a second round last year.
Perhaps Green party members are naturally cautious – see the Green's suite of welfare and tax proposals for redistributing wealth, which are well worth considering in light of challenges Aotearoa NZ faces.
Your comments have prompted me to make my first donation to a political party this year, so thanks for that.
Cognitive dissonance, those who claim to care about poverty but won't support Greens (or Labour) because of a policy supported by all the other parties in parliament? Because someone must pay and bee seen to pay.
It's a real cart before the horse scenario, if the political right were campaigning to do something there might have been a point.
Of course, there is the option provided by a women's party protest vote.
But how often are those tactics decisive?
There has been electoral reform – MMP (successful). Those advocating drug reform got a referendum (which attracted international funding and organisation to the anti-faction – from the same groups against GI, CRT, same sex marriages, sex education in schools, public funding of contraception, CRT, prostitution and pornography).
I think you have simplified the argument or concern if you understand it at all.
The point is about trust and about points that are made in the coalition agreements but that the general electorate does not get to see prior to that. That is they are not 'fought on' during the election.
Hence the idea of mine that The Greens fight on several fronts – alleviating poverty being one and environmental matters/climate change being another.
i am most interested in those two, housing and wholesale tax reform.
Women's safe spaces and playing fair in women's sport should be taken as read. Hence my thought that as much as The Greens hope people won't vote away because of self ID/gender issues we are coming up for the time when this self ID legislation comes into force – 15/6/2. My reckoning is that we will see more of the concerns expressed about access to women's changing rooms as recently in Invercargill.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/southland-top-stories/132012169/anger-over-gender-identity-practice-in-swimming-pool-changing-rooms
https://whatsoninvers.nz/mayor-and-council-sort-changing-room-issues-at-splash-palace/
lol, yes it does 👍
I understand you are uninspired (fair enough, not everything meets people). I was just hoping for a bit more meaty critique. This sounds all a bit vague (you don't like it a meta level that isn't that clear yet).
Ok, I understand this principle. What would you see the underlying issue is here that they're not trying to solve?
"Ok, I understand this principle. What would you see the underlying issue is here that they're not trying to solve?"
As mentioned, poverty relates to the imbalance between income and necessary expenses as opposed to looking only at nominal values.
A couple of examples:
They are not addressing the failure of working wages to keep up with basic expenditures nor the lack of sustainable working options to provide those who want it with an opportunity to work, pay all necessary bills and have a good work life balance at full-employment level. Many of those in poverty are working households.
They could remove the tax on a larger number of lower income earners – who will spend most – if not all – their income within NZ – contributing to local business and government tax take, for example. The first $10,000 is a timid move.
ah, ok I think I get it now. I agree with your definition of poverty, but think that there are distinct limits on government to be that specific. One would need to look at income, housing costs (including what part of the country they live in), other costs, capacity to increase income, whether the person intends to have children or not, needs education and so on. Can't really design social policy that assesses all that so that each individual's needs are met (although technically welfare could use a case management system for this if it were sane). So government focuses on broad measures (as they do with health, public health is for the collective not the individual, which is why we suck up vaccine reactions for the greater good).
I'm pretty sure they do address this in other policy (whether you agree with the how, it's not like they are ignoring these things) but before I go look for that, what's the in the hand difference between raising the tax free bracket (and what you you set that at), and other measures like increasing wages and lowering housing costs? Do you see a higher tax free bracket instead of the other proposals or in addition to them?
I get the advantage of getting more of your hourly rate rather than having to work more hours to get the same amount in hand, but I'm curious where the level is. Obviously we need tax paid. Is the solution a tax free $20,000 and more tax on high income earners?
Weka, I've just remembered that I thought the Green's clean car rebate was dismally conceived as well. The more I recollect, the stronger my perspective becomes.
In essence, from observation and past experience – I don't trust them to allocate ANY extra funds received for poverty in a way that is both strategic or effective.
"Is the solution a tax free $20,000 and more tax on high income earners?"
Unfortunately, if it was that simple, poverty would have been effectively addressed long ago.
what I get from that is that you think GP policy is generally ineffective, can’t be specific about how, but also can't say what should be done instead 🤷♀️
You can see why it seems vague.
"You can see why it seems vague."
Not really.
I do get into specific detail often – .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-16-05-2022/#comment-1888651, more than they provide.
If such criticisms are dismissed as vague, the points do not have to be addressed.
Usually the points are glaringly obvious to me, and until they are addressed the finer detail is irrelevant.
hmm, I think that’s the second time recently where there’s been miscommunication about what I am doing. I’m not dismissing your criticisms as vague, I’m making an observation about them and leaning in and asking for more explanation. I want robust debate, and conversation with people who can take the policy and unpick it and point out the failings.
What I think you are doing is taking your past experience with GP policy and your idea that they are incompetent and using that to inform your opinion about their competency, rather than looking at the policy detail. I don’t think there is any way to address that tbh. If you start with them being incompetent then everything will be parsed through that.
(and I still don’t know what is wrong with the policy, because the two critiques didn’t stand up).
This is getting silly. First you complain it’s timid and they should do more to reduce tax on those working on lower incomes. Then at the idea of this being done, you say it's not that simple.
As for your earlier point about reducing costs – they have wanted a rent freeze for some time. And more state houses – with income related rent.
As for the other big costs people are facing, it’s either the cost of land (when buying a home) and the higher cost of mortgage – neither of which is in the inflation statistics. Until this faced up to directly – actions of the RBNZ to manage other inflation is an absurdity (they pushed up the price of land with their pandemic policy and the cost of mortgages to manage the consequences). A neo-liberal nonsense.
My position is also based on the fact that the Greens ignore those that are struggling who don't fit the easily defined poor that they use in their examples.
People on low incomes with access to free or low housing, or reduced necessary costs – are sometimes better off than those on higher incomes, with higher necessity costs and more ongoing responsibilities.
For example: I have relatives on pensions who are struggling in Auckland, while another older relative has access to council subsidised housing (was $48 p/w), and support with transport costs, leaving her with a reasonable amount of income over her utilities and food costs.
Other relatives, have relocated to the family owned house and now live there rent free as a sibling group. Their expenses are reduced to food and utilities, which means they too are able to have a reasonable excess over income.
However, I know a working couple who have taken on related children who despite working, endeavouring to pay off their mortgage on a modest home, and also looking after an elderly relative are constantly struggling financially. Their responsibilities and outgoings are rising as the children grow, and the costs of care (adult nappies etc) rise.
So, it is important for those who wish to address poverty to look at the balance of income and necessary expenses. Address the nominal amounts by all means, but have something else to capture those for whom this does not apply.
Another point – one that is often not taken into account – is the assumption that an individual's income equates to a benefit and responsibility for an individual.
There are many households that have a single tax payer. There will be a difference in tax between a household that earns over $125,000 with more than one earner, and that which relies on only one.
IIRC, this anomaly has only been mentioned by Peter Dunne many years ago, and has never been revisited.
"As for your earlier point about reducing costs – they have wanted a rent freeze for some time. And more state houses – with income related rent."
Greens can ask for a rent freeze, but unless costs of providing rentals are also frozen then they are effectively asking private landlords to subsidise the cost of housing for others. Essentially, getting them to offset successive governments failures to rein in housing inflation, and ensure provision of affordable, healthy, secure homes.
I've given up reading the Housing NZ – Kainga Ora report – because this oft repeated intention, doesn't seem to have any great direction for implementation or effect.
But your faith in delivery is stronger than mine, so fingers crossed that you are right and I am wrong. I would like the housing situation to be effectively addressed. If that means I am wrong about their methods, I'll happily be wrong.
However, I cannot change my perspective because I wish to be more hopeful, I need clear indications there is something concrete to reconsider.
Which is why going to $20,000 tax free (at a huge cost) is not the way to go – the available resources need better targeting.
It is why we have WFF and AS (related to family size and housing cost).
The Green policy is designed to focus on lack of basic income (and ease of guaranteed access – given W and I gatekeeping and bureaucracy), not do away with this.
The Ohariu (Wellington Epsom) policy to reduce tax on those on a high single income (unrelated to any actual need/hardship test). For mine it would be better to allow individual access to income support (to deny those with a disability any support if they have a working partner is really unfair policy). This better reflects the modern world, and would also allow sole partners on the DPB an easier relationship life and a simpler transition when they form partnerships (which should make for better housing utilisation).
Structural problems (from cost of land, supply of necessary infrastructure, consents and building) are not quick fixes (maybe consents for small and factory build facilitation), a rent freeze is. Complaining about a lack of focus on costs and then dismissing something that does just this is a form of obstructionism.
The quickest results come from leasing, or buying homes to rent out at affordable to income levels. At the moment the migration of workers will have more impact than state building (reduce the amount of income subsidised housing to total demand). So it is fair that the company tax rate goes up to assist with the impost. For mine we should choose the American approach of a progressive tax, more on larger more profitable companies.
Delivery requires Labour, so fingers crossed.
@ Molly 5.17pm
Brava well said, clear and accords with my perspective. I know of many of my ilk who are cash poor while thought to be asset rich. The cost of rates and water rates, where these are not based on actual use, can be plunging many into poverty. This is important as many can work budget miracles where they have control of the use of water or electricity.
Ever since I have been a tax payer we have always had reference to the new poor…..those that Molly refers to. Also the ones just outside of limits who earn slightly, and I mean slightly too much to qualify. Abating, rather than hard fixed limits, is a good thing if it can mean that some of the new poor can get a little 'gruel'.
@Shanreagh 6.25pm
Presuming Greens and Labour interface on policy, the outcome would be support to families will continue up to a higher level and with slower abatement changes (apart from the Greens bump to lower incomes and the $10,000 threshold, the issue was pressure around the $75,000-$120,000 family in higher cost environments – something not fixed by tax rate bracket tinkering).
It looks a bit sketchy.
A minimum payment of 80% of the full-time minimum wage is an improvement, however why transform ACC? What will that in itself cost? Why not keep it with MSD? Moreover, what shape will this transformation take?
Below is a snippet from an example given by the Greens
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/beachheroes/pages/17574/attachments/original/1686379147/Tax_Full_Policy_Document_v4.pdf?1686379147
So does that mean that under this transformation caseworkers (not doctors) get to say whether or not someone is eligible? And what happens if they are deemed not to be eligible but yet still can't work?
Because WINZ has a shitshow culture of abuse, paternalism, and Bennett indoctrination and many consider it too hard to change? More importantly, the current situation is that if you can't work because of an accident you get way better support than if you can't work because of illness. This is a well known inequity that's long been discussed and finally a political party is stepping up with a plan to change that. So either we shift ACC clients to WINZ (lol), or the other way around. If WINZ disabled clients go to ACC, it makes sense to reform ACC to be fit for purpose (It has some cultural issues of its own).
Whatever way the situation is resolved, it's going to take reorganisation and funding.
That's the status quo. A GP can sign the forms and WINZ can still decline the benefit. It's been like that for many years (since they brought in designated doctors). However reading the example the Greens give, I would expect that the decision is made by ACC based on medical advice (which is what happens now). With both WINZ and ACC culture change is also needed.
Indeed. However wouldn't a culture change at MSD be less costly than fully transforming ACC? Which is merely adding further complications to this policy.
Totally agree with addressing the current disparity between accident payments and illness.
This came up as part of income insurance work, and that opted for ACC over MSD/WINZ to pay and do the case management because it was easier than trying to redo MSD.
Expanding ACC to include illness was the recommendation when setting up ACC, so there's history to it as well.
However wouldn't a culture change at MSD be less costly
Given the magnitude of the change required, it would be cheaper to build new agencies from scratch and disestablish the old as the new comes into operation.
Poverty is about income. Anyone pretending otherwise is "pulling the wool".
Lack of income is the reason for all the other lacks. Beginning with choices.
Like Ian Taylor would know!!
Poverty is the gap between income and being able to afford basic needs. I know people on low incomes who would be considered poor based on that, but they're not because their housing costs are very low.
I have thought long and hard about this overnight.
1 I am not sure why it is based on not having a job, as Molly says there are people working desparately hard at multiple jobs for low pay who are still needing more support. The minimum wage and the Living wage earners are not eating choccy biscuits or finding it easy to hand over $$$ for kids school trips/uniforms etc.
It seems that the policy may be treating people as individuals, and that is good rather than the spouse of someone, meaning you don't qualify.
So would the policy mean that the mother I had helping me after I had an accident be able to not work and her family get along financially? She & her spouse worked multiple jobs, they cared for 2 school age children who could not be left at home. Both worked jobs that were at the same time. Their solution was to buy a van with a bed in the back. Whoever was working the shorter time at night had the van and the children slept in the back of the van. Oh the family was not eligible for WCC or Kainga Ora Houses and rented privately as they 'earned too much'. Assumed they got AS.
So could she give up her jobs, go on the benefit as not working and get this GMI? This woman was working to give her children opportunities. One really good thing would be for at least one of the family with multiple jobs to not need to do this so they could be at home, even before and after school, making a home and being around in the community.
This is the key failing. People's incomes may be low but because of the operation of other policies their actual net incomes are higher than you would expect.
2 I am not sure why IRD could not be more involved in identifying those with low incomes
3 without the SW system treating people as individuals then some who may be unemployed may miss out ie the spouse of someone who is working
4 what is the net in hand for an individual? They would get the jobseekers plus $385?
5 If it is aimed at those already on benefits why not just come out and say this ie an improvement to benefits. Why does it need to be tied to a wealth tax? Shouldn't we aim for people to be able to avoid poverty when they are on any sort of state support by having realistic payments?
6 Why not reform the tax system as proposed, see how it goes in bringing in more money and then look at other ways if there is a shortfall
such as
wealth tax that includes collections, real estate, shares (dividends are alreay taxed as part of income tax so this would be on the value of the holdings per annum)
Wealth tax that excludes the family home
Policies that operate at the natural changes of property ownership rather than annually. sale and death are these changes.
So we have a transaction tax at the time of sale, like the old stamp duty but augmented or a tax at the time of death before asset distribution.
Why not base it on the universality principles and rates of National Super?
Do we have figures that show that the unemployed figure more highly in poverty, than the households where every member is working at low paying jobs often all day/night
I have probably got key things wrong but having looked at both sides UBI & wealth tax neither really attracts me or make me feel that we are doing something meaningful.
The situation where people are unable to work because of disability should be treated differently from those not working – if Weka feels that this is better covered under the ACC regime then I would support this.
Individuality like NS is good.
While the GMI component of this is great there are a couple of minor weaknesses. Don't couple the GMI and Wealth tax components too tightly. The Green party is unlikely to get both in any coalition negotiation. Negotiating on the basis of both or neither will almost certainly result in neither.
If GMI gets passed then there needs to be an explanation of what that means for ending poverty. Most poverty measures relevant to NZ are relative. The existence of a poverty line doesn't go away from the policy review, in fact it's relative unimportance should be a mark of success of the policy.
I see a difference between the election campaign (telling the electorate what is possible) and the negotiation period (the pragmatics arising from how many votes they get). They should definitely be doing both the GMI and the WT in the election campaign, but I am curious now what scenario planning they have done for coalition negotiations.
Remember also that TPM may be queen maker.
The problem with separating them, is that if the Wealth tax isn't supported, the GMI isn't affordable.
The money has to come from somewhere: and kudos to the Greens for being explicit over the tax changes which would be required to meet their GMI goal.
That's entirely incorrect.
If the GMI is put into the budget then the governments payments will continue to clear just fine.
If your unclear about this fact its simply because where the money comes from is it comes from the RBNZ. The RBNZ issues in some form every single cent the government either spends or collects. It's explicitely part of the reserve bank act that the RBNZ has an absolute monopoly on doing this.
Well, you can claim this. But you'll have a hard road convincing most Kiwis that money effectively grows on trees.
If any political party proposes to increase benefits, or institute a GMI – then they have to be prepared to answer the inevitable question of "Where does the money come from"
Your belief that the RBNZ can just print whatever is needed – is the kind of quantitative easing which got NZ into the current inflationary spiral. Not too many people are happy about the resulting cost of living crisis – and they are absolutely wary about anything which might pump more gasoline on that fire.
For a start, as you have highlighted, its far from just my opinion, its also recent practice. This is just how government spending works, how its legislated and how its correctly documented. Since I've highlighted the incorrectness of your term of unaffordable you might want to put your argument across more precisely in future.
So, it seems what your actually claiming is that paying people a GMI would be inflationary. Were it going to be I certainly agree this is a reasonable poitical debate to have, if that should be a policy.
But I think it should not be difficult to convince most NZers that that narrative of the present inflationary episode is invalid for a few reasons. Firstly, multiple countries were running QE policies for a full decade (or three for Japan) prior, with ongoing low inflation rates. This indicates that QEs timing was more of a coincidence than a factor. Second, there have been obvious factors causing supply chain disruption and oil price hikes which were initially and have been subsequently discussed as causes. This has been coupled with multiple follow on profiteering decisions. For these the timing is right both for inflation starting and coming back down. This has been widely reported on as the main cause of inflation.
Third, the main economic institutions and opposition have actually blamed wage rates, not govt spending for the inflation. Though this is basically contradicted by the real wage cuts observed (prices moved and wages didn't catch up is what stats say about this). It should also be noted the RBNZ prefers to talk unemployment rates, rather than pay rates, though the mechanism is targeted to lower wage rate increases.
Fourth, the country used to function with lower wage inequality rates which would be supported by a GMI. If your claim is heading back towards mid-90s levels of income inequality is inflationary, you will need to justify why it wasn't then.
Good luck with finding any political party which will espouse your views.
I'm pretty sure the GP are not that party.
Presently we add to the money supply by getting a bank to charge (Interest) for issuing it. The only constraint being legislated reserve ratios, sometimes.
In the past Governments added to the money supply by "issuing" currency.
Of course banks and lenders don't approve as this cuts into their profits.
Please explain why one should be more "legitimate than the other?
Government issue also has the advantage that less is spent on profits for the unproductive FIRE, sector.
By the way The Proof That Banks Create Money – Positive Money “in reality in the modern economy, commercial banks are the creators of deposit money”.
“BOOK: https://positivemoney.org/modernising-money/
Why our monetary system is broken, and how to fix it.
“Money is a social invention, indeed among the most important of all social inventions. At present the right to create money has been handed over to the private businesses we call banks. But this is not the only way we could create money and, as recent experience suggests, it may be far from the best one. Read this book with an open mind and you will understand why.”
– Martin Wolf, Chief Economics Commentator, Financial Times”
The other concept is why Governments should be in deficit and avoid “starving” other sectors,
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2012/07/18/why-you-should-love-government-deficits/?sh=1ea08db570a5
I've disliked the positive money presentation of this subject for some time as it tends to descend into miss-leading tropes, rather than a clear explanation.
Around the brief QE period in NZ (and similar to longer ones overseas) what was happening is that the RBNZ was lending to the government to facilitate its deficit spending. Grant Robertson was directly asked if this is what was happening, but he denied it was anything unusual in that the RBNZ was just buying up the debt in the secondary bond market that had recently been bought in the primary market (mostly by large financial institutions). I'm not sure how many were convinced but apparently buying and holding the bonds for maybe a few days to a week before reselling with a small profit to the RBNZ validates the bond interest rates the government pays. The rate of profit to doing this however is very small. This is what the positive money description chooses to highlight however.
The important parts of the QE policy however were, the government has lent to itself and ends up paying itself back for this borrowing (eventually any profits the RBNZ makes are rebated to treasury anyway). The follow up might be, since the government is lending to itself, why not just setup an overdraft like account where the government clears its payments. That would be much more understandable for the public and might lead to better public spending outcomes when this basic mechanism is made visibly overt.
They also highlight reserve ratios, but reserve ratios have never been a constraint on bank lending. The OCR policy is a guarantee to banks that they can always borrow what ever reserves they need to clear payments. While there are no reserve ratios in NZ the OCR policy means if there were those reserves (even up to 100%) are guaranteed available. The actual constraint on bank lending is that the banks can find credit worthy borrowers who will pay their interest rate margin over the cash rate (over the long term).
(Note for KJT, I'm aware your well on top of this detail yourself).
They can't.
If they did we would swiftly find out who really rules New Zealand.
As we found when it was proposed the finance company charges be taxed.
I’m curious, which of the two will meet most resistance in coalition talks with Labour, GMI or wealth tax?
Hopefully we get to find that out.
https://twitter.com/AdamParsonz/status/1667791264409071616
I've seen this come up a few times. Has anyone looked at the detail? I responded with this from the policy document,
Agree, for many smaller businesses, some profits will be retained for business purposes, but anything over that is only kept in the company structure to minimise taxes. If profits are paid out as either imputed dividends or shareholder salary, the owners will pay tax at their normal marginal rates, so the company rate will not affect that.
A good policy, the Greens at their best.
Before nitpicking this policy, all other parties now must be asked for specifics about their plan to end child poverty…
They can't, because they would have to admit that it is the poor parents who need help first at not being poor so that when they have kids these kids aren't poor.
And besides did we not have a children’s commissioner? what happened to that person? Oh yea, we removed that person. https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2208/S00017/removing-childrens-commissioner-will-be-harmful.htm
I agree.
" Oh yea, we removed that person."
That's right. Why did we do that, again?
FWIW, my party vote will go to either Labour or the Greens, and with this policy the Greens have moved ahead. (The candidate vote for me in Auckland Central is easy, Chloe of course).
In the post-Cab press conference today, Hipkins will probably be asked about it, and I hope he resists the temptation to use words like "rule out" or "bottom line". He doesn't have to endorse the Greens' policy (though it would be great if he did) but he'd be making a huge mistake if he simply shut it down, like Ardern with CGT.
Labours tax policy, or complete lack there of, is the elephant in the IRD office. All other major parties now have a tax policy. Labour need to come clean on theirs so voters left and right can make a more informed decision as we move closer to the election.
Having tax policies in isolation is reasonably unhelpful under MMP.
All other major parties now have a tax policy.
Where can we find National's?
Is it the policy Luxon announced in 2022 (reverse all Labour's tax changes) or the walk-back by Willis?
If you could point us to National's income tax policy, that would be great. Because it doesn't exist.
No, it’s not just reversal of Labours new taxes. It’s also inflation adjustment to tax thresholds. Even the Greens get this with partial adjustments to their threshold.
Labour … we’re just waiting on you now.
Again …
What is National's policy on income tax?
Keep the current top tax rate, or scrap the current top tax rate?
Very simple question.
Very simple answer – keep the 39% rate.
12:57 "reversal of Labours new taxes"
2:21 "keep the 39% rate"
They can't both be true.
I don't blame you for being confused, Luxon has been all over the place on this, Nicola Willis has to keep rescuing him. But you should probably just admit that you got it wrong, and National have not announced their tax policy for the election, just like Labour. That's a fact.
Horse's mouth:
"National Party leader Christopher Luxon says he is waiting for the latest economic figures before the party releases details of its tax and fiscal plan."
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/490091/luxon-wants-latest-economic-figures-before-releasing-national-s-tax-and-fiscal-plan-details
Are you thick or what? You will see I said “not just a reversal of Labours taxes …”
Please stop digging.
You originally claimed National had released their tax policy for the election.
That is false.
That's why you haven't linked to it, in any of your comments. It's impossible to link to something that doesn't exist.
Labour have said they will be releasing their own tax policy soon.
Great. I look forward to it.
So, I donated to the Greens last night, that's how much this impressed me.
I had written the Greens off, I didn't think they could talk about anything other than identity issues.
Well done to the Greens. They have made me and a lot of millennials and gen z suddenly excited for this election, because there will actually be a party campaigning on populist left economic reforms.
My only concern is that they will get distracted and caught up in irrelevant culture war bullshit as the greens tend to do and not enough voters will hear their economic policies.
If they remain focused on messaging and getting the word out so that every kiwi possible knows their economic policies, they are going to clean up.
And yes! It's time for the Greens to start differentiating themselves from labour and attacking from the left just as Act is attacking National.
This is going to steal voted from labour and top and honestly I even expect a bunch of middle voters see the proposals and switch to greens.
Bravo to the Greens, there's actually something to vote FOR this election, rather than just voting AGAINST something.
please fix your username.
Sorry I don't seem to be able to edit my username on that comment.
Tldr for the other comment I posted.
These policies have restored some of my faith in the NZ left and have got me excited.
I was going to give two ticks to TOP, now I'm party voting Green and giving Raf my electorate vote in Ilam.
This election seemed like it was going to be a slog between who could be the beigest.
Now there's going to be some actually debate around economics.
If their housing policies are just as good I'm going to start volunteering and donating monthly.
I'm really looking forward to their other policies. I was feeling pretty hohum about the election too, but this has certainly made me pay more attention. It's the smell of potential in the air.
I really hope so 🤞
"I didn't think they could talk about anything other than identity issues."
What the Greens talk about and what the media bother to report are quite different.
I'm on the Greens' mailing list (not a member) and apart from all the usual fundraising e-mails, which are common to all parties, I'd say about 90% of policy communication is related to climate change, other environment issues like mining, housing/rents, and general economic policy.
But that doesn't get enough angry clicks or talkback calls, so it's largely ignored by the daily media.
This is true and I say that criticism as a minority myself, it's just really good to see some good old left wing economics.
I really am excited for this election now.
I kinda wish they'd bring back the all party debates!
Good to see Hosking pretty mild with Shaw this morning. Civil even.
Liked the $4m cutoff.
Also first $10k tax free fully supportive.
What's the strategy for when Labour says no to all this?
pre-election or post-election?
Post
I love all of it but can't see Chippy being to interested
I expect the GP strategy post-election is the same as always, working on the pragmatics depending on how much party vote they got.
I said elsewhere that I am curious what post-election scenarios they run.
Sure, there's a whole lot of stuff that's likely still unpalatable for many, but the important thing is that it's being said continues to be said.
What I like about this kind of policy is that it simplifies and reduces reduces administrative overhead.
The simplicity of the superannuation system leads it to have a administrative overhead cost of about 2-3% of the funds disbursed.
I haven't seen any comparative data about the disbursement of other WINZ benefits, but looking at it with a overhead cost eye, I'd be very surprised if the direct administrative overhead is less than 20% of funds disbursed. It would not surprise me if it was closer to 50% of funds disbursed.
And this is before looking at the other costs of of being required to turn up at WINZ offices for pointless meetings, interviews and involuntary strange and futile 'training' courses. All of which appear to be of a punitive nature and designed to raise the costs to recipients.
If someone is on the DPB, then circumstances don't change over time and having to get to a WINZ office monthly doesn't help. Nor does getting the DPB turned off because you can't get to the WINZ office because you have a kid with a cold and can't get on a bus. Same for turning up for meeting about jobs when there are no jobs or interviews on offer or where the offer is a interview at the other end of Auckland city. All of which I have seen happen to people I know.
I have paid an awful lot of tax over the decades which doesn’t particularly worry me. I have always been able to earn more, and it does mean that there is backstop if I get health problems or finally retire.
But it infuriates me when it gets squandered providing kind of make-work and punitive silliness that appears to be the purpose of WINZ for many idiotic politicians. Silly rules make for ridiculous operational inefficiencies.
Hopefully policies like this would reduce the overheads to something closer to the efficient and productive superannuation overhead.
Well, it's the first really promising Green policy I've seen in a while.
I have a feeling that housing issues would uncover a number of faults with any money based reform however, and that some kind of regulation that contains the egregious avarice of speculators and slumlords would remain necessary to make it workable.
Now we need some real environmental policy – not hydrogen or 1080 or subsidies paid to Musk. Cleaning up our rivers seriously would be a good start.
Though I'm annoyed by the gender self-id rubbish, as the public work out it's yet another linguistic philosopher boondoggle, on the 'all truth is socially constructed' pattern, it will lose popularity, and indeed is doing so in the UK already.
So the Greens are marginally palatable again for me, which I guess is better than no options at all.
One of the big issues for most, especially solo parents, is security for their family. Have been a solo parent and really wanted to buy out the ex so I could keep the family home and kids in place during the turmoil. On the benefit with my home business it was affordable, however the benefit was/is made up of so many different components that it wasn't considered income by the bank. So although I could pay for it..I couldn't get a mortgage and be independent. I would have to sell up and illogically pay more in rent in an area away from our supports. Nuts. It's ridiculously expensive to have to do that for the government and also for a parent. I ended up in full time work but my family really suffered. And I did buy my house.
a not uncommon scenario unfortunately. I think most people fail to understand just how complicated benefit structures and rules currently are, and how often they work against concepts of social security.
Those old Housing NZ mortgages might show a solution for this going forward. IIRC they were fixed interest mortgages for up to 30 years – my friend’s family were political refugees from Chile and had one in order to purchase their state house when it became available to buy. But I don't know how the money market works now as compared to then, so whether it is still possible would be the question.
Housing affordability, security and access are a big ticket item that reduces the cost of living immensely. Addressing this – and improving access to better financial options for individuals and families – to offset the financial considerations of banks – may help.
Personal anecdata about this one. My dad had one at 7% for 25 years.
Began in the mid-70s. By the early 80s they were virtually going on their knees, begging him to pay it off early. At that stage mortgage rates were in the high teens – and trending up over 20%.
IIRC, I got a one year term deposit rate of 20 (or 25) % with Countrywide in the mid-80's.
Yes just thinking about the logical, if we were really wanting to up the numbers of home ownership with all its good aspects, aspect to having a long term loan facility. Since these state loans went down the gurgler as part of the neo lib movement they have never been looked at again or reinstated. This is despite them being a boon to those who were helped by them.
It just shows me how close we are still intertwined with this whole neo lib rubbish that a Labour Govt has not thought of or had the guts to reintroduce something like this.
We have Kiwisaver and that is great and I support the hardline on withdrawals. it is for retirement and not a defacto housing funds source.
We could look at a State Advances type home loan ability. It would fit nicely with what we all thought the Labour movement was all about.
The government provides subsidy via AS or income related rent now.
Another approach is the cost of borrowing to buy up/own property and then "rent to own" schemes (long term tenancy). Or simple sale via some sort of housing bonds – whereby investors supply funds for long term mortgages (and can sell these on that market).
That sounds good
Is the AS easily available for the type of people that Molly was writing about?
It depends on housing cost to income (is relative) – and it does include mortgage cost.
AS is asset and income tested. If you have aren't on a core benefit, this is the asset test (it's also a good example of how complicated assessing a benefit it)
https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/map/income-support/extra-help/accommodation-supplement/assets-non-beneficiaries-01.html
https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/map/income-support/extra-help/accommodation-supplement/chargeable-income-non-beneficiaries-01.html
AS is one of the gnarliest problems to solve. It's complicated, can be unfair (WINZ use 4 area categories for average housing costs that probably don't reflect current housing costs), and there is the idea that landlords increase rents because they believe that WINZ will pay the beneficiary more (govt to landlord pipeline).
Some beneficiary advocates say get rid of it, but how to transition is difficult, and housing costs do vary a fair bit.
the asset test for beneficiaries
https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/map/income-support/extra-help/accommodation-supplement/assets-beneficiaries-01.html
Yes, the end of marriages when there is a family home is a an area that deserves some focus.
For mine continuing to provide a family home to the children is part of preventing poverty.
This is an area that is still neglected in policy.
One interesting option – where the separated parents continue to co-parent – is that the kids remain in the family home, and each parent moves in for 'their' week.
It has remained resolutely unpopular with the separated parents – who want their 'own' space. But would be the best outcome for the kids (no trekking between 2 'homes', no issues with schooling continuing, or the rest of the disruption which occurs in association with the grief over parents separating).
Both parents contribute to the mortgage – with varying levels of 'ownership' accruing for differential payments following the separation: e.g. if they had 30% equity in the home at the time of separation – they get 15% each; but subsequent mortgage payments increase/decrease the share of the balance for each.
Once the kids are grown/leave home (a bit of a moveable feast these days) – the family home is sold – and the profits split according to mortgage contributions above.
Of course, this requires a fairly amicable divorce. When one party is fire-breathing vengeance personified – the best interests of the children go to the wall.
It requires
a two bedroom apartment/flat/town house for the away parent (in turns).
they each share a two bedroom place with someone else one week out of two.
one has a place of their own, and the other uses a sleep out.
It's more difficult when there is re-couplingor (or living in different areas) – and a partner has a new family home mortgage partnership. Then the government has to buy out the "absent" parent. That might reduce the shared care down to occasional times (resident parent to a sleepout) or daytime.
This was an interesting adjunct. Mortgages over time.
Norm and I had a 30 year mortgage @ 3.5% in late1972. of $10400* (from memory) plus a $5000 2nd mortgage @ 7%. for 5 years. Built by Peerless Homes plan, keys in May 1973. Lived there for 23 years.
We sold it for $ 151thou in 1996 and bought a unit for $87000.
Property one recently sold for $750thou( small 3 bed.)
Property two is now valued at $500thou. (small 2bed unit.) Been here since 1996 except for when we let it out for 5 years while we travelled in our Motorhome.
In the 80s when my Dad died I helped my mother buy a unit in Waihi (Gold Mine Town) @ 18% for $12thou of the $51thou price.
So prices and interest rates have been a seesaw.
Yep, it's back to GP party vote for me, after dallying with TMP and others. It's also good to see this policy suite supported by the more Labour-leaning on here.
Now all that needs to happen is this to be reported properly, thanks MSM!
This is a genuine question, not a criticism…
Can someone please explain how a payment to everyone will stop people being at the bottom of the heap?
I was around the public sector when accommodation supplements came in and it seemed they just went to increasing rents and left no-one genuinely better off.
It seems to me that giving everyone the same payment would just be the rising tide that lifts all boats and another catalyst for putting middle class taxes into upper class pockets.
Yet, those in the know seem to place an importance on the concept so I'm sure I'm missing something. Can someone please tell me what it is?
Thanks.
The GMI policy is not a payment to everyone, its a top up to that level for those below it.
Rental prices are often described as responding to accommodation supplement adjustments in that way. Not so clear what the facts of that matter are however because plenty of people not getting accommodation supplement also saw their rents increase at the same time frame.
But the point is that this doesn't seem to apply for a majority of price levels. The change is immediately taking income inequality back a few years in time and if you expect a huge price level adjustment to everything on that basis the question is why that didn't apply to that earlier period of the economy.
I'm struggling to find the detail on the Trust element of this policy.
If it is (as it appears from the press release) to be a flat tax on every asset owned by every trust – there are going to be a number of ordinary Kiwis affected – some of them very unfairly.
Many people don't have trusts because they are 'rich pricks' There are a lot of trusts established to protect the family home, e.g. when Dad dies, Mum has a lifetime tenancy in the house, but the asset is protected for the kids. Or to protect an inheritance for a disabled child.
This kind of protective trust is fairly common. And does a huge service in supporting those who are at risk of conmen (both Kiwi and international) asset-stripping people who are disadvantaged.
If the asset threshold of the trust tax is the same as for individuals (i.e. 2 million) – I have much less of an issue with taxing it. But, on the face of it, it appears that it applies from the first dollar of value.
One way around it, would be the legal establishment of a protective trust (one with a beneficiary who is disadvantaged in some way) – and exempt these from the trust tax up to the 2 million limit. This would have to be a legal declaration – so fraud would apply if business or wealthy individuals used this provision to hide assets.
Many people don't have trusts because they are 'rich pricks' There are a lot of trusts established to protect the family home
You mean of course to make the state pay for their residential care that they would otherwise have to pay for themselves. Winston Peters made a habit of going around New Zealand encouraging people to do this in the late 80's and early 90's. Lots of lawyers made good money from this. Of course only those who could afford lawyers and the costs of setting up a trust actually did this.
The ordinary worker who owned their own house could or did not.
There are also those who have learned to their regret that the children who were the beneficiaries of the trust oft dissolved it and sold the house from under them. I know a few who this has happened too – one parent only finding out their house had been sold when they ran into the person who had bought it in town and that person telling them they had just bought their house.
Tell me should that value built up over the years be used to pay for a person's care – usually better quality when self-paying – or be given away to greedy children.
afaik beneficiaries can't sell a house like that, only the trustees can.
but yeah, it's still very shit and elderly people are vulnerable in lots of ways.
If the beneficiaries all agree for the trust to be dissolved and the assets disbursed it can be.
In setting up the trust the person is in effect giving their assets away to the trust. The trustees have to look after the interests of the beneficiaries – not the interests of the person who put the money/house into the trust.
right, but why would the elderly person agree to that? Or are they not a beneficiary?
Often the person giving the assets is not a beneficiary.
It is why they should get independnt legal advice from a different firm than the children. One acting in the interests of the children, one in the interests of the older person.
If you put your assets in a trust and continue to use and access them as a beneficiary it can be declared a sham trust or the other beneficiaries can sue the trustees for not looking after their interests. There was a case in Palmerston North some years back where the parent used up all the money in the trust while they were alive i.e. continued to treat it as it was their own money and the children after her death successfully sued the lawyers who were trustees for neglecting their interests.
It is much more complex than people think.
https://www.trustlaw.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/NZL343-TToNTT-Greg-Kelly-7V.pdf
In that particular case they were not. I've seen quite a few where the elderly person wasn't. Legal advice has not always been independent eg children and their lawyer convince Mum to set up a trust. Lawyer is acting on behalf of children.
In another case I was helping with a disabled beneficiary got the trust wound up via another lawyer as the trustees (bother and sister and a lawyer family friend) were essentially not disbursing anything to him as they would get the money once he died.
No, actually, I mean to protect the major asset/inheritance from a second marriage – resulting in it being willed away from the children; or from being conned by smooth-talking low-life into ….. unwise…. financial decisions.
If you've never seen either happening, then you are fortunate.
What/which Kiwis will be affected very unfairly and why, as a result of a trust tax?
I know two people, both adults with intellectual disabilities, who are beneficiaries of trusts. Set up on the death of parents, with their share of the value of the family home – the only asset; held in trust for obvious reasons – these are vulnerable people.
The value of the trusts would be well under the individual wealth tax level of $2 million in both cases. So their siblings (who are well able to look after themselves) would not be liable to pay wealth tax on their share of the inheritance; but these vulnerable individuals would be taxed on the value of the assets in their trust.
Sounds pretty unfair to me.
Life’s been unfair to those people. However, in my view, the Green policy is not affecting them if those trusts are set up properly:
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/beachheroes/pages/17574/attachments/original/1686379147/Tax_Full_Policy_Document_v4.pdf?1686379147
“pretty unfair” ≠ “very unfairly”
Why are you changing your wording?
Why are some commenters and you desperately looking for examples, real or hypothetical, to raise doubt & concern about this policy? It seems you are refusing to look at the bigger picture and are looking for any (!) excuses to dismiss it. Why?
One of the worst ‘reasons’ I’ve seen is that Marama Davidson co-fronting the policy, as Green Co-Leader, is enough to ditch the whole policy off-hand. What are such people even doing here on a Left-leaning NZ political blog??
Happy to say "very" unfairly – if it makes you happier.
And, if they will be exempt from the trust wealth surtax – then I don't have an issue, here.
Thank you for the clarification.
It was not clear from the media coverage that this was the case.
I said, at the beginning, that I'd been unable to find the details of the GP policy on trusts – apart from the once-over-lightly media coverage.
I hardly think that querying a possiblity of unfairness under the (poorly reported) trust element qualifies as "desperately looking for examples"
Indeed, I made a comment on another thread about giving kudos to the GP for providing the funding mechanism for their GBI.
And, I've made zero comment about Marama Davidson in relation to this policy. If you have a problem with another commenter saying so – raise it with them.
There is a link to the policy document in the original post.
Thank you, I apologise for missing this link in the original post.
In the post and easily found on the GP website 👍
I haven't read the whole document (although I have scanned it), but I'm finding when people ask specific questions that I can usually find the detail by doing keyword searches.
All good, I’m so much happier with consistency within and between comments in the same discussion thread.
The Green policy covers a huge area and lots of legal-technical stuff will need to be worked out. My comments are my understanding of what’s in the full policy document as it stands. I’m no trust or tax expert.
Life is unfair for many including many (most?) of the poor. Why the laser light focus on trusts set up for people with intellectual or other disabilities? What percentage of Kiwis with disabilities are beneficiaries of disabled beneficiary trusts? Inequity is present & pervasive at all levels.
The Green’s policy will help disabled people and nobody in this piece mentioned trusts.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/132303045/greens-income-guarantee-would-help-disabled-mori-in-poverty-advocates-say
So will the wealth tax catch those who have saved through kiwisaver, got to the age of being able to withdraw it. So if they have taken a bit to upgrade with a view to future proofing the house they live in the family home, there is still a balance in their name. They may be wanting to get in an annuity/pension from later. Tax is already paid on these funds.
If you include the family home and include kiwisaver I feel you are sending the wrong message. So an unintended consequence may be a lessening off of contributions if they are going to be taxed again later on them.
I feel ending poverty should be looked at separately and the changes to the mode of delivery, individualism in benefits as well as tax rate changes should be the ones we look at.
If benefits are too low then benefits are too low whether or not it is coupled with a wealth tax.
Kiwisaver isn't mentioned in the document and I agree this needs to be clarified. But perhaps you could be more specific with a scenario. Few people will have a kiwisaver and freehold home worth over $2m
Have a look at the example given at the top of pg. 15 in the full policy document.
My interpretation is that KS will be considered part of the cumulative net wealth of an individual.
thanks. Do you mean the Marion Hood one? (they called one of the people in their scenarios Robin Hood, lol).
Do you mean the private super scheme is akin to KS?
Yes and Yes
Really?
You forget about people living in cities and those who may have been dutiful in putting more than the minimum, some up to 8%, into Kiwisaver and who are yet to draw down any funds as they have not retired. Will this balance be counted in the wealth tax? KS started in 2007. So someone living in a city who started then will have 16 years of contributions so far against a possible further 24 years of working life.
My use of the word 'if' is to say that out of touch benefits exist now without being tacked on to another scheme to do the Govts job (of providing for all its citizens) by penalising others for looking after themselves.
Puny benefits should not have to be run with something like a wealth tax to make the concept of upping them legitimate. Doing that lets any Govt off the hook off the need provide a safety net for those in need. This has been part & parcel of our way of life in NZ for many years.
I do not doubt and have never doubted that benefits are not liveable on just as I don't doubt that minimum hourly rates or the even the living wage do not provide enough/any of things like choice for children's education, holidays even Christmas. I do know that the working poor who don't have access to abated rents, etc do it tough. This is becasue of the myth that working provides. Many lose variuos payments and have payments such as transport/clothing costs increase. Many belong to a union while working and that has to be paid for.
We as a country need to look straight ahead and clearly and ask ourselves why this is and what the Govt can do about it. Hiding it in some sort of snow job wealth tax just continues hiding it.
I feel certain that we should adopt wholeheartedly the tax changes suggested in The Greens paper. Make the benefits, on an individual basis, at least equal a 40 hour week on a the minumum or living wage and then see where the gap is on having funds within Govt coffers to pay.
We should have huge encouragement for all citizens to avail themselves of AS and disability payments. Those already in the system seem to no problem but where people may have no other dealings with the system there is not good take up.
I feel that your experience leads you to think that it would be better run through ACC then that is valid.
My former flatmate who was legally and congenitally blind still had to fill out paper work which seemed to infer that he may have suddenly stopped being blind. I did too with my congenital bi lateral deafness. They have modified this approach but after having his disability payment stopped because he was too slow off the mark he didn't bother from then until he moved to Aus. I have never bothered to reapply but will do so.
Really what exactly?
No, it's not that I forget, it's that I'm of the underclass who can't have KS, so I don't know what you are talking about. This is why I asked you do give some scenarios. Actual scenarios, not vagueposting that some people have paid 8% (because obviously that depends on their wages/salary), or how they have over $2m in assets but no ability to pay or defer.
The other problem I have is that you came into this debate arguing against things that didn't exist in the policy, so most of the time I can't tell if you are making a valid point or not.
It's not about making them legitimate, where did you even get that from? It's about paying for social security in NZ so that no-one has to live in poverty. If you have realistic ideas on how to do that without a wealth tax, please explain them.
From the arguments you have made so far (and I could be wrong on this), you appear to be saying that asset rich, cash poor people shouldn't have to help lift people out of poverty. You haven't explained how or why. Given the option to defer, it looks like you are making the argument that people should be able to keep their high value house capital gains. I'd like to know why.
Paying 8% does not depend on one's salary. You can pay 3-8%. Ok my own scenario. Redundancied out of full time well paid work in PS in 2005 and took early retirement.
I had a series of jobs most of which were on the minimum wage to just over the minimum wage. When I was a peak portfolio worker with three or four small jobs I earned much, much less than I was getting in the PS.
In 2007 the opportunity to put money into KS arose and I started out by putting the minimum of 3% in, even on the low wages I was on. In a later work place I was in, there was a similarly waged part-time worker who was able to put in the full 8%. I put in in 8% when my portfolios of jobs was about $30-40,000.
I do not understand the comment as to the 'under class'. Please don't call yourself or anyone else that…..Luxon's 'bottom feeders' or 'unter mensch' are horrible similar sayings.
There is nothing that stops anybody from opening a KS account. This is so that people would at least get the amount from the Govt. My niece has been on the job seeker benefit for many years with only occasional work (she has Borderline personality disorder) and she has managed to put aside contributions. My sister insisted that her children do this, opening an account for each of them. Admittedly this niece is one of those that Molly refers to with cheaper rent as she is housed in a Kainga Ora home.
The upping of the basic benefit will allow choice and hopefully more will be able to contribute at least the minimum to KS so they feel they have a $$$$ stake in the future and see themselves backing themselves to provide part of it. Hopefully those on lower incomes will be able to make a contribution if they choose to.
On the basis that if the Govt is giving away money then we should all be lining up to get it.
I do support the upping of the benefits. This should be explicit & clear -cut Govt policy and not hidden or necessarily funded by this tax.
I support the upping of the tax rates as suggested in the paper
I support benefits being individualised
I think the family home should be excluded.
I think reintroducing death duties or introducing a (transaction) tax on when a property is sold are fairer ways and provide a natural waypoint when duties or taxes are imposed.
For the long termers who are not able to work because of mental or physical disability should not be classed as not working or unemployed. They should have access to a package similar to at least the living wage or Govt super.
I have looked at the Sorted KS calculator
https://sorted.org.nz/guides/kiwisaver/kiwisaver-how-it-works/?
It explains it far better than I can and I would urge anyone to open an account.
You are incorrect as to my rationale. I am hoping that this level (above) of misinformation/politics of envy is not going public in response to queries from people in similar circumstances to me. The people you so disparage (not wanting to help lift people out of poverty) above especially once they have retired, are the backbone of the charitable sector with many working almost full time hours for little,no, or honorarium type wages. They are the ones turning up at schools to run remedial reading classes, or to coach sports teams, making curtains or quilts or running foodbanks. In the domestic sphere one I know made 40 woollen hats over a two week period as well as scarves/clothes for packages to go to HB/Gisborne to help those affected by the Cyclones. The more that is well made, warm and donated the less people have to pay to replace out of their benefits.
These are also the people that make huge contributions to charities on death. (hence my suggestion that if this taxation regime is brought into force and people defer until death that the amount they have to pay, that this is abated by the amount that is donated to charities.) I feel you will not get them on side by implying they are super rich. Many get along on their super, don't have holidays, budget and live frugally.
That is the cohort I am in now so I know more about them.
I can imagine feeling similarly peeved if I was paying huge amounts to house myself/family plus pay my way in retirement and then someone comes along and says you are a 'fat cat' and we are going to tax you. Fine budgetting often gets people a long way and they will be responding to govt initiatives like KS and working hard so they don't need to apply for social housing, so this is left to those in need.
I can't help thinking though of the person who helped me after I had an accident and the hours that she and her hsband were working. I would dearly like to hope that families like hers could have support from this. I fear though that they may not, because they are working a huge number of hours.
A Green Party member is staying with me and he says the policy is more aimed at those who are unable to work, no matter how low the unemployment numbers. So not the spouses of workers who may not be unable to get a job. . Not sure if he is correct though. Is he?
What do you mean if benefits are too low. Is that not something you accept as real?
I'm not sure what your first paragraph means. The point of the wealth tax, and income tax adjustments, is to pay for much better welfare so that no-one has to live in poverty. That includes you if you should end up in that situation.