Waitangi day

Written By: - Date published: 8:36 am, February 6th, 2018 - 84 comments
Categories: Media, the praiseworthy and the pitiful - Tags: , , , , ,

Mōrena, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa.

This is a rewrite of a blog post I have had a few goes at updated with recent events.  The benefit of blogging is that you can repeat and refine.  And something as important as Waitangi Day needs ongoing reassessment.

In 1973 in a stroke of brillance Crosby Textor could never dream of Labour Prime Minister Norm Kirk on Waitangi day grabbed the hand of a young male Maori, and walked onto Waitangi Marae.  The juxtaposition was exquisite, old and young, powerful and powerless, Pakeha and Maori.  The feeling of partnership was overwhelming.  The image cemented Big Norm’s status as one of the saints of the Labour Party.

John Key tried his own version of this.  He went even further and transported young Aroha Nathan from McGehan Close in Auckland to Waitangi with him.  The imagery is jarring though, it was a carefully scripted photo shoot and the use of a Ministerial Limo to do the transporting shows how far away from a solution for poverty this was.  Aroha’s subsequent life experiences suggest that Key’s expressed desire to do something about the “under class” was for political purposes only and not heart felt.

And this year Jacinda Ardern has spent an extended period of time getting to know the locals, talking about Manaakitanga, being the first Wahine leader to be granted speaking rights at the Marae and generally making us all feel like the country is now in a better place.  Waitangi day has been utterly transformed and the right wing bigots like Mike Hosking and Bob Jones, whose particularly racist rant was taken down by NBR after multiple complaints, have been left floundering and complaining about how bad the event was previously.  They need to get with the present.

Ardern’s actions this week will be treated historically as even more important than Norm Kirk’s.  Such is the mark of a true leader.

But don’t take my word for it.  Simon Wilson in the Herald captures the events of the day very well in this article.

Protest was absent from Waitangi yesterday, and you don’t need to have a view on the rights or wrongs of the protests there, year after year, to recognise that history is alive and progressing.

Yesterday was Ardern’s first chance to say, formally and in public, to all of us, this is who we are now. To note that the relationship of Maori to Pakeha, of tangata whenua to everyone else, is the great defining project of this nation. To explain what she thinks that means and what she wants to do about it.

The wero, the challenge at the start of the powhiri, was especially ferocious. But the full impact of the occasion was manifest later, when Ardern became our first woman Prime Minister granted the right to speak from the porch of the whare runanga. She said, “We did not come just for the beauty of the North. We came because there is work to do.”

She told a personal story, of how her parents took the family to Waitangi once, and Jacinda was given the job of taking a photo of them. And just as she did so, her parents did that worst, most embarrassing thing of all, they kissed. “Passionately.”

Ardern said she wanted her own child to know the history and the meaning of the place, and how lucky they would be to call themselves a citizen of Aotearoa.

She talked about “what we value”. Manakitanga, the spirit of generosity and caring. Kaitiakitanga, or guardianship. The importance of speaking kanohi ki te kanohi, or face to face.

“We don’t seek perfection,” she said. “Frank and open disagreement is a sign of health.”

She pointed, from the porch where she stood, across the lawn to the Treaty House. “That is the distance between us,” she said. And she listed the ways in which it is measured: unemployment, mental health, housing, incarceration.

This was her moment. “I believe in the power to change,” she said. “We as a Government know the failings, but we won’t always know how to change. We will come to you, to ask. No marae will be too small.

“And I ask you now, to ask us what we have done. You must hold us to account.”

Ardern has the leadership skill that John Key had: She instils confidence.

Bill English deciding to spend the day as far away from Waitangi as possible was the actions of yesterday’s leader.  The real leadership went to Waitangi determined to make the event something the country could be proud of.  And succeeded.

But the day needs to be about reflection as well as celebration.  And the most egregious breaches of the treaty still cry out for justice.

Much has been written about the Treaty of Waitangi and the treachery of the Crown but I will try again to very briefly set out my understanding of what happened to show why I believe Maori have a right to feel aggrieved at their treatment.  To any who disagree feel free to point out what you believe are my misunderstandings so that we can have a proper debate about the issue.

The treaty was part enlightenment and part reflection of the reality of the time.  In 1840 Pakeha was heavily outnumbered by Maori in Aotearoa.  Statistics New Zealand estimate that at the time there were no more than 2,050 Pakeha compared to 80,000 Maori in New Zealand.  The Pakeha that were present were mainly traders and had no long term commitment to the place.  But there were those interested in setting up colonies such as the Wakefield brothers who through the New Zealand Company had started to transport immigrants and promise landholdings in areas where they did not own land.  And the French were coming.

The English wanted to control the colonisation of New Zealand and keep it to themselves.  A treaty, any treaty with Iwi was vital. Captain William Hobson was sent to New Zealand with instructions to annex part of the land and place it under English rule.  He was specifically instructed to sign a treaty with local Maori.

The treaty itself was drafted by the Missionary Henry Williams on February 4, 1840.  The document was in Maori and English.  The basic problem that has continued to cause so much controversy was the use of words with different meanings in each draft.

For instance in Article 1 the English version ceded sovereignty of New Zealand to the Crown.  But in the Maori version the word “kawanatanga” was used.  This has been translated to mean “governance” which is clearly not the same as “sovereignty”.  And in Article 2 the English version guaranteed “undisturbed possession” of all their “properties”, but the Maori version guaranteed “tino rangatiratanga” (full authority) over “taonga” (treasures, which may be intangible).

The core problem is that the Maori version was signed by the parties.  The fact that there was an English translation, clearly an incorrect one, should not affect the interpretation.  The Maori version has to be given preference.

So Maori retained Tino Rangatiratanga of New Zealand and preserved full authority over its Taonga.  Subsequent acts of confiscation were clearly in breach of this.  And the obligation of the Crown to preserve for Maori their Taonga has caused many treaty claims to be made.

In a civilized society this should be acknowledged and the Treaty should be given full force.  The Treaty settlements have been for extremely modest amounts given the size of the loss Maori have suffered.  On Waitangi day this should be reflected on and respected.

Update:  Enzo nails it in one tweet …

https://twitter.com/EnzoGiordani/status/960680314426175488

84 comments on “Waitangi day ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Carolyn_Nth 1
    6 February 2018 at 10:27 am

    Thanks, Micky. You explain the Treaty well – meets with my understanding of it.

  2. Jimmy Ramaka 2
    6 February 2018 at 10:34 am

    At least she does not have the old Colonial attitude which the likes of Brash, Key, Joyce & English display ?

    • mac1 2.1
      6 February 2018 at 12:46 pm

      At least? True, but our Prime Minister has much more- understanding, empathy, desire to effect real, meaningful change. She will be held to account, as she wishes; I hope and believe that her government, which she acknowledges is our government, will deliver that change- for Māori, for tangata hou, mō nga iwi katoa.

      Kia ora tātou i tenei wā nunui.

  3. Johan 3
    6 February 2018 at 10:47 am

    Ardern is like a breathe of fresh air, there is a new way of doing politics in New Zealand. Let’s do this!

  4. Ad 4
    6 February 2018 at 11:40 am

    By bringing the baby with her next year, she will form the photogenic icon at least the equal of Norman Kirk’s.

    Those accountability measures are going to put pressure to perform on Ministers like we have never seen. It will be like doing a Cabinet reshuffle live before a studio audience.

  5. Draco T Bastard 5
    6 February 2018 at 11:50 am

    The core problem is that the Maori version was signed by the parties. The fact that there was an English translation, clearly an incorrect one, should not affect the interpretation. The Maori version has to be given preference.

    English law at the time stated that a treaty with a native people must be in the native peoples language. This means that, even at the time, only the Māori language version was valid.

  6. timeforacupoftea 6
    6 February 2018 at 11:53 am

    Perhaps Prime Minister Jacinda Adern can bring Waitangi Day back to all New Zealanders and call it New Zealand Day like Norman Kirk did.

    https://nzhistory.govt.nz/people/norman-eric-kirk

  7. mary_a 7
    6 February 2018 at 12:18 pm

    I’d like to think this Waitangi Day, NZ has begun the process of coming of age, taking us forward as a progressive nation.

    In one of the most interesting aspects of her speeches at Waitangi, Jacinda acknowledged government is there to serve. A statement of commitment indeed from any PM to the people!

    For the first time in many a long year, the lead up to Waitangi Day 2018 was a time of celebration and I hope healing. Long may this aspect of the Day continue and prosper in the future.

  8. Rosemary McDonald 8
    6 February 2018 at 12:42 pm

    http://www.maoritelevision.com/news/regional/ngapuhi-elder-opposes-pohiri-shift-te-whare-runanga

    One, small protest from a truly veteran activist.

    Escorted off by the constabulary.

    • Stunned Mullet 8.1
      6 February 2018 at 12:59 pm

      It’d hardly be Waitangi without Kingi sparking out.

    • red-blooded 8.2
      6 February 2018 at 1:19 pm

      And even this wasn’t an anti-government protest – it was aimed at the organisers, because of their decision to bypass Te Tii marae.

      I think the shift in tone reflects a whole lot of things. Ngāpuhi are probably glad to be dealing with a government and leader who are stepping forward, rather than trying to avoid conflict and staying away. I imagine there’s a feeling of hope and pride in the large proportion of Māori MPs within Labour, and the status of Kelvin Davis and others. I think there’s always a certain willingness to allow a new government a bit of an easier time than one that’s disappointed. We should also credit National with taking Treaty settlements pretty seriously and getting a lot of deals across the line. (The process was stated under Labour and a lot of work done, but it’s true that National have settled more time during their time in government.) Plus, it’s true that Jacinda Ardern radiates sincerity and she’s shown great political judgement as well as personal commitment by attending for 5 days and opening herself up to so many different people and groups.

      Some of this is “feel good” stuff, but there’s nothing wrong with people feeling good, so long as they (we) recognise that there’s still work to do. And that was the focus of Ardern’s speech.

      • greywarshark 8.2.1
        6 February 2018 at 1:43 pm

        red-b
        +1

      • veutoviper 8.2.2
        6 February 2018 at 2:07 pm

        Well said.
        And I never thought I would say this, but Steven Joyce’s performance at Waitangi has been in keeping with the atmosphere of the occasion – unlike the bitter, negativity of most of English’s Waitangi day interviews.

        At the risk of incurring certain people’s displeasure, I laughed when at the end of the speeches yesterday, one of the host kaimatua stood up to correct one of Joyce’s assertions in his speech that the Ngapuhi treaty settlement was the one that got away.

        The correction was words to the effect that ‘it had not got away, but as Clarke Gayford would know, it just still needed to be reeled in’.

        • veutoviper 8.2.2.1
          6 February 2018 at 2:27 pm

          I knew I should not have said that about Joyce – I now take what I said above re him back!

          http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/02/waitangi-success-down-to-us-national-party.html
          Senior National figures are dismissing suggestions peaceful events at Waitangi are the sole result of the feel-good effect of Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and her Labour-led Government.

          They want to take some of the credit for this year’s Bay of Islands celebrations, which have been without the acrimony and protest that marked previous events.

          Senior MP Steven Joyce, who had a sex toy thrown at him in 2016, says that can be put down to moving the politicians’ welcome to the upper marae at Waitangi, and National taking celebrations around the country.

          The Ngāpuhi iwi had decided they wanted a more positive celebration, he told 1News.

          “I think probably a little bit much to sheet it home to her [Ms Ardern]. It’s really been the shift of Ngāpuhi and the decision to bring it up to the main Treaty grounds.”

          Then followed by Mr Negative, Bill English.

          • Louis 8.2.2.1.1
            6 February 2018 at 3:29 pm

            If Bill wants to take full credit and claim a successful Waitangi day is down to National, why didn’t he, as leader of the National party, front then?

            • veutoviper 8.2.2.1.1.1
              6 February 2018 at 4:38 pm

              Exactly. However, he would not have been the centre of attention if he had and he is still bristling from no longer being PM – his rightful position.

          • Anne 8.2.2.1.2
            6 February 2018 at 4:56 pm

            Actually veuto @ 8.2.2.1, I think there might be some truth in that comment by Steven Joyce.

            The Maori leadership chose to change the venue to the upper marae in an effort to avoid the aggro associated with the lower marae and it worked. Add Ardern’s refreshingly inclusive approach and today is being heralded the best ceremony since Norman Kirk.

            So, in a way both sides are right. Ardern handled the occasion with amazing aplomb (something we have come to expect from her), but it was made possible by the change in the venue.

            • veutoviper 8.2.2.1.2.1
              6 February 2018 at 5:45 pm

              Thank you Anne. On reflection I think you have hit the nail on the head. I was surprised to see Joyce fitting quite well into the changed situation whereby all political parties participated in the events at Waitangi at the same time rather than separately as in the past. But the change of venue was paramount – a major decision by Ngapuhi.

              This latest Newshub article suggests a bit of a backup by Joyce after some finger wagging, possibly. Will be interesting to see what happens later in the week when National have their retreat in Tauranga at the weekend(?).
              Not suggesting that Joyce would be a (good) choice for next leader,,,,,,,,,,,

    • Louis 8.3
      6 February 2018 at 2:09 pm

      “Kingi Taurua is a well-known personality with very strong views and he enjoys expressing them. I can’t explain why he didn’t take the opportunities he had when he met with the Prime Minister personally, to express whatever views he wanted to express on this occasion.”

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/101198629/the-prime-ministers-five-days-at-waitangi-has-gone-off-without-a-hitch-or-protest

  9. Jess NZ 9
    6 February 2018 at 12:48 pm

    See this recent Stuff article https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/101198629/the-prime-ministers-five-days-at-waitangi-has-gone-off-without-a-hitch-or-protest

    It would be an amazing connection if they buried their baby’s placenta on Treaty grounds, and PM Ardern genuinely walked the talk of being “of the people” by serving simple food to hundreds instead of luxury food to a favoured few.

    • Stunned Mullet 9.1
      6 February 2018 at 12:59 pm

      Well it would at least give the local feral cats a feed.

      • mauī 9.1.1
        6 February 2018 at 2:10 pm

        I have thought actually Paddles the cat could be reburied at Waitangi. It would hold special significance as his ginge cat ancestry is thought to trace back to the first Captain Cook voyage.

        The name Paddles also has links to waka ama.

        • Louis 9.1.1.1
          6 February 2018 at 4:58 pm

          Was that necessary Stunned Mullet and Mauī ?

          • JanM 9.1.1.1.1
            6 February 2018 at 6:53 pm

            I don’t think it was – poor taste 🙁

            • veutoviper 9.1.1.1.1.1
              6 February 2018 at 7:52 pm

              Thanks Jan M and Louis – more than poor taste or necessary on the part of Stunned Mullet and maui. Pretty disgusting in fact,

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                6 February 2018 at 7:57 pm

                Stunned Mullet threw a metaphorical dead cat on the table: a small-minded nasty response indeed. Good on Maui for trying to turn it around.

    • millsy 9.2
      6 February 2018 at 1:00 pm

      Couldn’t see John Key doing that.

    • Louis 9.3
      6 February 2018 at 4:56 pm

      “PM Ardern genuinely walked the talk of being “of the people” by serving simple food to hundreds instead of luxury food to a favoured few.”

      Which she and her colleagues did.

  10. millsy 10
    6 February 2018 at 12:56 pm

    The lack of protest and rancour at Waitangi (some people reckon for the first time in over 30 years) represent a sense of optimism which hasn’t been seen for a while in this country and a chance for a country to look forward. Whether this will be the case in12 months is anyone’s guess, but let’s cross that bridge when we come to it.

    • Stunned Mullet 10.1
      6 February 2018 at 1:00 pm

      Fair call Millsy.

    • mac1 10.2
      6 February 2018 at 1:48 pm

      Bridges are all the go in the North. Some get promised, some get built and some get crossed. Our Prime Minister is a bridge builder.

      ‘Ware the trolls underneath!

      • ropata 10.2.1
        6 February 2018 at 5:07 pm

        The Waitangi bridge is still a single lane bridge after 9 years of National uselessness. At the very least there should be traffic lights at either end. It’s a nightmare every holiday season.

        Ideally it should become a pedestrian only bridge with a separate one for cars.

  11. Incognito 11
    6 February 2018 at 1:51 pm

    I’m interested to hear as to how that “young male Maori” fared who was in that photo with Norm Kirk. Does anybody know?

    • mickysavage 11.1
      6 February 2018 at 7:44 pm

      I recall reading something that he turned out fine but can’t find it via google. I would be interested to know. He must be 50 by now.

  12. koreropono 12
    6 February 2018 at 2:44 pm

    “This was her moment. “I believe in the power to change,” she said. “We as a Government know the failings, but we won’t always know how to change. We will come to you, to ask. No marae will be too small”.

    “And I ask you now, to ask us what we have done. You must hold us to account.”

    Ummm really? Seriously just mere weeks after failing to consult with Maori on the TPP11? I think that words are pretty meaningless when not followed up by action and so far this is just another PR exercise…Jacinda’s cultural advisor must be proud though.

    • Molly 12.1
      6 February 2018 at 4:14 pm

      I have a consistent grinding noise when I think about Labour’s current stance and actions with the TPPA, which has not been silenced by the sincere speech given at Waitangi. But the actions and the words are currently at odds.

      I look forward to when they are aligned.

      (The actions to the words – not the other way around 🙂 )

      • Incognito 12.1.1
        6 February 2018 at 4:21 pm

        Well said Molly. It’s like watching a band play on TV with the audio and video so out of sync that you can’t be sure whether they belong to or come from one and the same recording 😉 Very confusing, to say the least …

    • gsays 12.2
      7 February 2018 at 12:55 am

      Well said koreropono

  13. peterh 13
    6 February 2018 at 3:30 pm

    The happiest man on the planet, Winston Peters, he now knows he picked a winner.Even Shane Jones is talking with a positive voice. All the nat supporters I know have no answer ,they just try to talk about something else.or say they won the election These are happy days

    • Ms Fargo 13.1
      6 February 2018 at 3:57 pm

      Am I correct in that Winston commented about him choosing being a midwife and an undertaker?… Right on so many levels if so. Bring on the new generation!

  14. Mark 14
    6 February 2018 at 7:46 pm

    “The Treaty settlements have been for extremely modest amounts given the size of the loss Maori have suffered. On Waitangi day this should be reflected on and respected.”
    “Modest amounts”! Are you frigging kidding me!

  15. David Mac 15
    6 February 2018 at 8:13 pm

    The term ‘Crown’ has come to refer to the part of our government that doesn’t change when we vote in a new government. Policemen, most school teachers, soldiers and the people who clean the Beehive, they work for the Crown. Our taxes and laws are administered by the Crown.

    The Crown is you and me, all of us.

    I struggle with the sentiment ‘Maori vs The Crown’ and I think we would be arriving at loving amicable settlements much quicker if we saw them for what they are: Us vs Us.

  16. WILD KATIPO 16
    6 February 2018 at 9:50 pm

    The Littlewood Treaty – Treaty of Waitangi . net.nz
    http://www.treatyofwaitangi.net.nz/TheLittlewoodTreaty3.html

    Boyd massacre – Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyd_massacre

    Marc-Joseph Marion du Fresne – Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc-Joseph_Marion_du_Fresne

    ………………………………………………………..

    In response to Chris Trotters article on The Daily Blog titled Can Sovereignty Be Shared?,…

    ………………………………………………………..

    The British were a lot like the Roman Empire and the Maoris could be viewed a lot like the Germanic tribes Tacitus wrote of…

    And , while the Romans had subdued many Celtic Gauls through direct military campaigns , with the Germans it took a combined number of methods to ‘induce’ them to come under the Roman umbrella.

    Trade , alliances , and warfare were top on the list. The topography of the heavily wooded forests of Germany and the harsh ,cold environment made that necessary. The forests provided excellent stages of ambush of Roman troops, – hence the battle of Teutoberg.

    So here we have the British Empire , surveying a large land mass, deeply forested , with peoples who were militaristic with strong centralized power bases. They were similar to the Scots Highlanders.

    They had been there before….

    The difference was the far flung distance between Britain and New Zealand,…or rather ,.. the lack of obvious and relatively easily accessed valuable resources like diamonds in South Africa or spices ,gems and ore in India , still ,… it would serve well as a military outpost against France and its competitor , the USA,…

    There was a battle between two German tribes , one Allied with Rome , the other an enemy of it that Tacitus observed and wrote of , stating ‘what better way to weaken the enemy’s of Rome than to let them slaughter each other ‘

    The same thing happened in New Zealand with the Musket wars , whereby no real attempts were made to prohibit sales of firearms to the Maoris , – in fact , – it was encouraged. Many industry’s benefited from the production and sales… and as far as the British Empire was concerned , – it also weakened the military strength and traditional balances of power held between the Maori tribes , thus leaving large areas of land under question as to who actually now held authority over that land as the latter were now either displaced or slaughtered.

    So there were the musket wars,… there was also the reputation of the French of treatment of various indigenous peoples , and the Americans.

    Maori political and military leaders saw that this was a time of rapid change , – there was no longer going to be century’s of isolation and , like Japan , … they had to make a decision. Unlike Japan , – they were far less numerous, did not have a centralized hierarchy , had not been exposed to firearms for century’s ( Japan had through the Portuguese – they had more firearms per capita than Europe did ) – in short ? – they were sitting ducks for occupation ( and abuse ) if they did not choose who they would align with.

    So they chose Britain . It had the most powerful Navy in the world and a legal system that seemed to be more fair then the others- for indigenous peoples at least.

    Smaller weaker tribes often welcomed the idea of a powerful intercessor that somewhat protected them against larger , more powerful traditional enemy’s. They would no longer be vassals , slaves and subject to abuses by their enemy’s.

    At least , that was how the thinking went.

    Larger tribes that gained through international trade made possible by European sea transport also welcomed a treaty , – an example was the huge timber trade between Sydney and California that developed.

    So a treaty was signed for various motives and reasons , with the understanding that regards a common law, at least , the only thing asked for was a type of acknowledgement and adherence to that common law.

    And to do that ?, – some measure of ceding certain aspects of ‘sovereignty’ was needed. Obviously the pros must have outweighed the cons or there would have been no signatories at all to any treaty…

    There must have been something attractive about the prospect so what was it?

    A guarantee that they would not be slaughtered and their lands stripped? Such as had been seen in other country’s?

    The treaty says that lands and things deemed valuable were to be protected for personal / tribal discretion to do with them as they best deemed fit… well we have seen abuses over the time since the treaty was signed, – many of them.

    An interesting one around that time was the war in the Waikato. The Waikato tribes did not sign the treaty , thus they were deemed outside those ‘protections’ . The Waikato tribes were also sending their young men as troops in the wars in the Taranaki against the British and the settlers,… and had the Kingi movement.

    So to smash the power base , the Waikato was invaded.

    It was a dirty war , and the General who was in charge of that operation believed it was wrong. That was General Cameron. He later resigned on the strength of those convictions .

    As there are individuals, with individual opinions , so were the tribes. Not all acted in unison or agreement with decisions made by another tribe And because of that Waikato war, – there were deemed large tracts of land that now had no one in authority over them – or so it was justified. So they were ‘ confiscated’.

    And opened up for sale and settlement. Thus the Waikatos lost so much of their land.

    It was done by stealth , and it was done with collusion of other enemy’s of the Waikatos , as many Maori tribes fought on the side of the British.

    This notion of sovereignty has been blown up for political reasons and distorted over time for the self servers whoever they may be. The fact was , – a certain measure of sovereignty WAS ceded , – in exchange for certain obvious benefits. But autonomy over personal , collective properties and things of value were not , at least in theory.

    The fact that abuses , breaches and those operating with ulterior motives for personal gain have occurred over time does not mean the original purposes of the treaty are null and void , – it just means the darker side of human nature have sought to circumvent or ignore it.

    Issues such as Bastion Point, Raglan , – and a plethora of others show that.

    Nothing has changed since the 19th century. Where there is wealth , and a means to obtain it , that dark side will often emerge. It always has.

    The fact that central government has often done nothing – or even been in full yet silent agreement ,- in the land grabs and pilfering is more an indictment on them rather than a commentary on widespread inherent racism. More often the public are not given the full facts by a media silent on the historic issues.

    I do not see the issue as one of separatism or sovereignty, rather , one of fair play . Rectifying past wrongs should be carried out . Unfortunately because of the passage of time , the full costs cannot be realistically restored no matter how idealistic we try to. But to the best of our ability we should . We all, have self determination already, within local limits , or within the parliament we have.

    We could attempt something similar as the First Nations of Canada or Native Americans of the USA , – but even that is self determination within localized limits and still operates under a greater centralized system of government and finance. And seeks change through representation in that centralized government system.

    I often think , that a fair amount of what passes for pushing sovereignty issues regards the treaty is just a rehash of those same types who saw an opportunity for personal gain as did in the 19th century , – the only difference being that instead of bloodshed and muskets they use idealism , emotionalism and the existing parliament to achieve their goals. At least some of them are not doing it for social justice reasons , that’s for sure.

    Still , righting past wrongs is a good thing and must be done. There’s no quarrel with that. All power to the process , even if it means some original innovative ideas to achieve them. In the end, its just good to see people prosperous, happy and secure . And surely that is one of the end goals of what sovereignty promises to deliver.

    • Sacha 16.1
      6 February 2018 at 10:04 pm

      “The Littlewood Treaty” – please don’t go bringing that denialist rubbish here. Brash would love you.

      • WILD KATIPO 16.1.1
        7 February 2018 at 12:17 am

        You read it?

        Or are you a revisionist.

        Personally , I dont give a shit. What I do give a shit about are those who deny history , rewrite it , conveniently forget the historic facts and treat those who were ACTUALLY THERE and witnessed events as ‘colonial idiots’ , and why ?

        Because it serves the purpose to.

        And that pisses me right off.

        When people are too gutless and cowardly to admit the facts of their own history they are no better than those in Japan who denied the Rape of Nanking ever occurred.

        Denialist bullshit my bloody arse.

        • WILD KATIPO 16.1.1.1
          7 February 2018 at 12:32 am

          And good on the French.

          Maybe they were taught in schools about their interactions with NZ in the past , – unlike New Zealand children. Maybe they were briefed about Marc-Joseph Marion du Fresne , – how many New Zealanders have even heard of him?

          HAKA – New Zealand Vs France – YouTube
          new zealand haka you tube▶ 1:42
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn_ZyQ7jW9o

      • Sacha 16.1.2
        7 February 2018 at 12:28 am

        Got through the whole of Waitangi Day without encountering such tosh – but no, you couldn’t resist. No better than a flat-earther. Begone.

        • WILD KATIPO 16.1.2.1
          7 February 2018 at 12:43 am

          Got through the whole of Waitangi day without even bothering to listen to the sentimental denialists of history. Sorry to burst your cozy little bubble.

          But no, you couldn’t resist the warm and fuzzys despite the crudity that existed in the time of British settlement and the rough and tumble of that existence. Or the reality’s of that era.

          Your from Germany , right?

          Your an expert on NZ history , right?

          I will have the pleasure of not being so crude as to say ‘ begone’, – but I will tell your attitudes to ‘ begone’.

          Dont come here trying to tell us our own history , mate.

          • ropata 16.1.2.1.1
            7 February 2018 at 1:02 am

            Don’t pretend to speak on behalf of “us” with your bizarre rants WK. This was an historic day for NZ, so begone with your bitter self righteous bile.

          • weka 16.1.2.1.2
            7 February 2018 at 11:17 am

            “Dont come here trying to tell us our own history , mate.”

            You’re talking to someone whose family was ACTUALLY HERE. And was here a lot longer than people you are referring to. So maybe pull your head in and stick to the points instead of lashing out.

  17. RedLogix 17
    6 February 2018 at 11:22 pm

    The Te Reo version of the Treaty is perfectly plain. Maori own everything they did not sell fairly and squarely for full market value. The tokenist ToW settlements to date are grotesquely short of full value, therefore all land, foreshore, the continental seabed of Oceania, and all other natural resources such as air, water, radio spectrum and the like not completely paid for, remain in full legal Maori ownership.

    In order to deal with the iwi fairly this govt must confiscate all privately held land that is subject to any Treaty claim and return it to it’s legal and rightful owners. This is the only possible settlement that will ever be accepted by Maori. They know it, the rest of us just don’t want to understand yet.

    • WILD KATIPO 17.1
      7 February 2018 at 12:22 am

      Love how the ‘ Maori’ are all treated as one homogeneous entity.

      Sort of like saying they are all unthinking clones.

      When newsmedia talk of ‘ Maoridom’ it should raise the eyebrows.

      Are all British of the same mind, are the Chinese, are the Brazilians?

      No. Obviously not.

      And as far as the treaty is concerned the Maori at the time were free to hold onto what they wanted and sell the rest if they were so inclined. Who are we to pass judgement on that ???

    • joe90 17.2
      7 February 2018 at 12:25 am

      This is the only possible settlement that will ever be accepted by Maori.

      Yet I’ve never heard Māori speak about wanting to dispossess me or my descendants in the way they were dispossessed by my ancestors.

      • WILD KATIPO 17.2.1
        7 February 2018 at 12:37 am

        Or perhaps you never lived in a time whereby some of them would have.

        I find this sniveling ‘ noble savage’ colonial patronizing a little wearisome.

        When are some of you going to get a grip on the facts that human beings are the same the world over ?!!?

        There was good and bad on both sides.

        And testament to that fact was THE FACT that so many intermarried and had children.

        Gonna deny that as well?

    • Rosemary McDonald 17.3
      7 February 2018 at 2:17 pm

      “In order to deal with the iwi fairly this govt must confiscate all privately held land that is subject to any Treaty claim and return it to it’s legal and rightful owners. ”

      Is there a list somewhere of such lands?

      • RedLogix 17.3.1
        7 February 2018 at 8:09 pm

        The logic is quite simple and impossible to refute; unless the rightful iwi owners sold land (or anything else that belonged to them) for full value, fair and square, then the ToW gives them claim over it.

        That so many iwi have made interim settlements for much less than full value reflects more on an inadequate negotiating position, than anything fundamental the Treaty entitled them to.

        In reality confiscation is probably a step too far; Maori have proven very generous hosts and for the foreseeable future would likely settle for a market rent from their tenants.