What Tamatha Paul Really Said

Written By: - Date published: 2:22 pm, March 28th, 2025 - 22 comments
Categories: Chlöe Swarbrick, Christopher Luxon, crime, david seymour, greens, law, law and "order", mark mitchell, media abuse, national, national/act government, police, same old national - Tags: ,

This article is an excerpt from Mountain Tui: Tamatha Paul’s Pile On Is Unjustified

Green MP Tamatha Paul has received quite the beat down in the last two days.

Her original comments were part of a panel discussion where she said:

“Wellington people do not want to see police officers everywhere, and, for a lot of people, it makes them feel less safe. It’s that constant visual presence that tells you that you might not be safe there, if there’s heaps of cops.”

The subsequent reporting reveals a deeper issue but first, here are some of the comments she received:

Christopher Luxon:

“I thought it was quite outrageous and insane, to be honest”

David Seymour:

“It’s just weird, to be honest”

Chris Hipkins, who was actually responding to an interviewer’s question on comments from another MP “that people felt safer with seeing gang members, patched gang members on the street, compared to seeing police on the street” said:

“[Those] comments were ill-informed, were unwise, in fact, were stupid”

Why was Hipkins referring to separate comments? We’ll never know.

Mark Mitchell, a man who has form in weaponising disinformation, took the opportunity to sow more:

“I haven’t seen the exact comments but basically they’re along the lines of disestablishing the police…”

The transcript shows Mitchell’s comments couldn’t be further from the truth.

Grant Duncan, a visiting academic and political commentator:

“Is it not time for the Greens to focus on their core business – like saving the planet or something?”

And here are the top comments from a Stuff article this morning:

Mountain Tui is a reader-supported publication. Thank you to paid subscribers for making it possible. And for all readers for being her.

I woke up disappointed at Paul’s treatment.

Luxon calling her comments “insane” and Mark Mitchell claiming Paul is in ‘la la land” is National at its best – using incendiary words and highlights for the media to run with – while inflaming a conversation for political gain.

It is true that National’s win was aided by frustration at law and order.

It’s one of their strongest political suits – punishment and coming down hard.

Yet ironically, law and order is not improving under National.

In fact, it’s getting worse.

For example:

Despite Mark Mitchell and Paul Goldsmith relying on an anonymous Twitter account to incorrectly claim violent crime was improving, the official data shows it is the same – not better.

Serious victimisation in retail crime is also not improving – at the same rates as 2023:

Meth use in NZ is at a never-before-seen record high over the last year.

Meth consumption has increased by an “unprecedented 96% .. when compared to 2023, with consumption increasing across all sites” according to police.

Police attrition remains significant – meaning the government police numbers have now gone from negative last month to +13 compared to when it took office. It’s more concerning when you consider we are losing experienced police officers as quality is significant in policing.

Gang numbers have continued to climb too + 600 compared to the election period, but that’s made worse when you consider this government is actively culling gang membership lists.

Luxon gets angry when questioned about why the government is removing gangs from lists

Paul’s comments must have come as welcome distraction for National.

But Paul was clearly speaking for her constituents and sharing her experience in hearing stories from the homeless and community organisations. Paul regularly visits prisons and respectfully listens to their stories, in their space.

Contrast that with PM Luxon, who says he hasn’t visited a homeless shelter in months (or is it really years) as homelesness increases by ~50% on his watch.

There is dignity in hearing from those who are most marginalised in our community, and doing your best to give them a voice too.

Paul quoted police conversations and the Police Minister. And yet because the police did not respond to media, Paul is presented as somehow unhinged.

Benedict Collins asked how Paul felt about her comments being labelled “insane” by the Prime Minister on TVNZ last night. She seemed taken aback, but it was good TV.

Yet most news reports I saw did not provide adequate context apart from sensationalising the drama.

Paul’s accounts that police are often working on removing or threatening to remove homeless folks’ belongings seems to ring true when we look at reports from just over the last few months –

Mental health is another area Paul emphasised, saying the police were not best placed to deal with mental health.

An example she referenced is the recent and tragic capture, handcuffing, detention and double drugging of an 11 year old autistic female.

And while last year, National instructed police to pull back from most mental health call outs, it’s also true they don’t hold the expertise alone. Police have acknowledged reducing their presence in mental health call outs may cause more deaths. Health care workers are alarmed that there will be no police support, and some have quit in response – the risk of harm for all is just too great.

i.e. The formation of units (police and mental health/social workers) was appropriate, but was rolled back under National.

None of this is theoretical, yet in the last few days, the theoretical has dominated our landscape.

What’s the takeaway?

To me, it’s that high paid PR consultants and media management work in politics.

The media are too unwilling and unable to adequately contextualise information at times.

This morning Stuff piled on with more angry commentary:

It’s all why we see politicians like Nicola Willis and Simeon Brown frequently sound like PR puppets, unable and unwilling to go outside the confines of meticulously prepared statements.

It’s also why we see Brooke Van Velden often sheltered and unwilling to give ad-hoc interviews (Van Velden also declines to meet with union representatives) There’s too much risk for her.

We’ve seen Atlas Network trained David Seymour claim multiple times that his school lunches is praised by principals and schools as “better”, yet when asked which ones, “would not give the school names for privacy reasons.” That seems to be enough to shut it down.

That’s much better than Paul’s honest response about being unable to verify the stories she heard definitively:

“When I go into prisons, I get to have lots of conversations with people in there and I heard a bunch of stories.

“I don’t sit down and interrogate them. I just listen to their stories as I’m a guest in their space.”

We have seen Mark Mitchell and Paul Goldsmith use claims from an anonymous unverified Twitter account as official evidence of falling serious crime, yet when asked about this, simply doubled down.

That’s enough to close the media cycle.

It shows how carefully curated political life needs to be for politicians.

But in being so, are we better for it or not? I’d argue the latter.

When I watched Paul, I saw someone speaking in an unguarded manner but also representative of the constituents and social workers she has been in contact with.

I heard her say that police could be better put to things such as sexual assault and domestic violence rather than clearing homeless belongings.

It’s easy to be sensationalist and angered, but Paul was speaking to a reality where police resources are limited, and where their training and background may be better suited to “core business” – i.e. getting back to basics – rather than helping with clearing the homeless, or mental health.

Police presence is welcome, but for some, too much of it can be intimidating and feel questionable.

It also speaks to difference experiences of policing – and how valid they can be. For example, an article in Spinoff confirms Māori are around seven times more likely than Pākehā to be the victims of police violence.

IPCA has found police use unjustified force that results in community deaths or assaults.

These are not new experiences or conversations.

And while most people feel safer with police presence, the underlying nuances of the comments are not undeserving of recognition and conversation.

I didn’t see Paul speaking for anything other than that type of context – and facilitating a potential, wider conversation. I also appreciated her point that someone in the halls of power should be unafraid to hold police to account where necessary.

The conversation was unfortunately cut short by the mania of reporting that didn’t provide the full context, and opposition members keen to slag off a young, female leader for politics.

Here’s the video of what Paul said:

22 comments on “What Tamatha Paul Really Said ”

  1. Kay 1
    28 March 2025 at 4:06 pm

    Excellent analysis, MT. A pity that the people who need to read this would still find a way to defend their behaviour towards Paul.

    I'm white, not homeless (yet) and no-one could get the impression I'm poor. I've never been harmed or harassed by the police. But I wouldn't make contact with them if I were the victim of a crime, unless it was required for insurance purposes. Because I have been in the past, and completely let down by said police. I have zero confidence in them as an organisation, and I imagine there's plenty of others out there who feel likewise.

    I don't have an issue with more beat cops, I can remember the good old days when it was the norm and they were proactive. Like so many, I've been acutely aware they vanished from the streets, and one would only ever see them in a reactive situation, often situations that didn't need to happen in the first place.

    A practical use for the police would be to arrest and charge all politicians who are deliberately, knowingly and maliciously causing direct harm to certain citizens by way of their ideology induced legislation, and use the results of that legislation to punish the victims even more. I could get behind that smiley

    Reply
    • Mountain Tui 1.1
      28 March 2025 at 4:42 pm

      People are too quick to judge with out looking at the evidence and research. Ironically that type of culture will only make things worse – not better.

      Of course, the media – especially Stuff and NZME are most culpable being the corporate driven machines they are.

      I thought it was obvious once you hear what Paul said that she was speaking to a very specific context.

      Thanks for your kind words, and I agree accountability for politicians – especially intentionally dishonest ones – would be welcome.

      Reply
    • Anne 1.2
      28 March 2025 at 5:22 pm

      Amen to everything you say Kay.

      I, too have been the victim of crimes in the past, but found the police either didn't care or were unable to comprehend their seriousness. In my case I don't think they believed me, or thought I was over-egging the truth. Whatever, it is a form of victim blaming which can be as damaging for the victims as the crimes themselves.

      Reply
  2. Ad 2
    28 March 2025 at 4:22 pm

    Maybe it's time the Greens came up with a law and order policy that wasn't basically a massive electoral liability.

    Overall crime may be steady but violent crime is high. So are our prison numbers.

    Stop looking weak on law and order Greens it does you no good.

    Reply
    • Mountain Tui 2.1
      28 March 2025 at 4:40 pm

      This is where National's reckless, performative law and order policies have gotten us to date:

      I think the government has moved cops from elsewhere to CBD though but the crime has just shifted elsewhere.

      Meanwhile homelessness in Auckland is up 53% in just 4 months

      Wellington homelesss up over 40%

      Don’t forget 11 year old autistic girls captured, handcuffed and drugged under this regime.

      Reply
      • Ad 2.1.1
        29 March 2025 at 8:54 am

        All of that crime and the Greens want to just talk about their feelings about Police.

        Then you come along and complain about Tamatha not being allowed to talk about her feelings.

        Grow up.

        Reply
        • weka 2.1.1.1
          29 March 2025 at 9:17 am

          All of that crime and the Greens want to just talk about their feelings about Police.

          Stop lying Ad. If you can't be arsed going and listening to what is actually being said, then step away. If you want to critique actual GP policy, then do that.

          Reply
          • Dennis Frank 2.1.1.1.1
            29 March 2025 at 10:03 am

            My first reaction when the pile-on happened was the govt doing knee-jerk racism again (too boring to comment on) but having just now watched her interview clip I reckon more push-back is a good idea. Hipkins, if he wasn't useless, would have called out the racism.

            She's just doing her job: representing her constituents. If it opens up the schism brown Aotearoa vs white Aotearoa, too bad. That's the reality of the nation.

            So I agree with you that Ad's take that it's all about the feelings of the Greens is rather ott. Their feelings are biased towards the folk that the msm and politicians usually avoid giving a voice to. I empathise with them on that, and if the cops are busy tidying up the possessions of homeless folk due to it making downtown look messy, I agree the cops have got better things to do instead…

            Reply
            • weka 2.1.1.1.1.1
              29 March 2025 at 1:12 pm

              I'd prefer Hipkins or Labour to say there are disparities in how policing happens in New Zealand that need to be looked at. It's not hard to explain and the Greens could have been front footing it. Nothing on their news page on their website.

              But I suspect that Labour and the Greens are not going to be friends next year and this is part of that.

              Reply
              • Dennis Frank …
                29 March 2025 at 1:43 pm

                sad Good on her for helping "the only person to have escaped Paremoremo maximum security prison twice, in 1976 and 1991" though. https://www.greens.org.nz/greens_call_for_compassionate_release_of_dean_wickliffe

                His father was an alcoholic and his mother abandoned him at the age of seven… He has Irish, Scottish and Maori ancestry and jokes that "my Celtic blood leads my Maori blood astray". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Wickliffe

                Green MP Steve Abel viewed the hearing at Wickliffe's request and told RNZ his release was "very good news". "He should never have gone to prison in the first place, in this instance."

                "Over the course of his time in prison, he has advocated for better prison conditions within the justice system, and in this latest instance, did that again. That is something he feels very passionately about, that there needs to be humanity in the way that prisoners are treated even while they're in incarceration"

                Wickliffe's lawyers allege the 77-year-old's head was beaten into a concrete floor after he refused to enter his cell and be double-bunked. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/549809/hunger-striker-dean-wickliffe-to-be-released-from-prison

                He's even older than me! surprise Such casual brutality from public servants as evidenced in those photos ought to be punished. I bet the wardens claim that he was trying to dent the concrete floor with his head.

                Reply
        • Mountain Tui 2.1.1.2
          29 March 2025 at 10:20 am

          Ad

          So you didn't bother to watch what she said.

          Given it's a topic you clearly care so much for, you would be aware that Bill English called a punitive prison regime a "moral and fiscal failure" based on generations of experience in NZ.

          You would also be aware John Key's Chief Science Advisor said punitive and criminal justice measures only exacerbated, lengthened and hardened crime.

          And in knowing all that you do, because you care so much about the topic, you would realise that what Paul says in the video above specifically addresses crime

          • 1.Focus on core business in police – domestic violence, sexual assault, crimes
          • 2. Given National's budget cuts and loss of police officers, have other resources to deal with homeless
          • 3. Given police around the country are devoting days of operations attacking homeless resources, see #2 above
          • 4. Leave mental health to the experts – especially given the recent case of an 11 year old girl being arrested, handcuffed and drugged etc.

          Your comments reveal a sore lack of care for the topic and a misrepresentation of what Paul said.

          Reply
        • Patricia Bremner 2.1.1.3
          29 March 2025 at 11:09 am

          I thought policy here Ad was not to be personally abusive to authors?

          I think we are aware of who needs to "grow up". Feelings are legitimate, and mansplaining is condescending. Tamantha Paul MP was talking of the feelings of people on the street, the homeless.

          Police are not angels just because they wear a uniform.

          The disabled disenfranchised and homeless sometimes have a different experience of Police than a resident of an upmarket suburb.

          How do I know that? I have friends in the Police who admit they have biases, and most of them come from comfortable homes and have small experience of any real hardship.

          Further, Police are supposed to have an adult present when they interview children under a certain age, and I have in my work and life had to enforce that rule.

          Police Often ask or make provoking questions or statements during interactions. Even well educated people may be disadvantaged by this happening to them.

          Further, many situations arise because there is no respect for normal human rights.

          Why would you think the feelings of homeless people are less important than others? Or are you meaning "Silly woman talking about feelings instead of crime?"

          Perhaps you could clarify why you are piling on Mountain Tui and the MP?

          Reply
    • Kay 2.2
      28 March 2025 at 11:12 pm

      The Greens only "look weak on crime" to the punitive many who want to lock everyone that isn't them up, for everything, then throw away the key, because somehow this makes them feel safer. Funny how they don't question how there's plenty of money to build new prisons and run them, but complain bitterly should beneficiaries (heaven forbid) get an extra $5/week. Of course, cost/benefit analysis is way too beyond them.

      NZ is full of nasty, punitive people, who think themselves superior to 'the rabble', and completely incapable of empathy. Regrettably, I am now one of those nasty punitive people who would be quite happy for those people to fall off their pedestals and have no choice but to turn to the state for assistance that no longer exists.

      Have you ever wondered why our prison numbers are some of the highest per capita? Labour was making progress in getting them down; the CoC simply had to reverse this unacceptable policy. We can't afford social services, but apparently we can afford prisons, and more prisons.

      https://www.justice.govt.nz/justice-sector-policy/key-initiatives/key-initiatives-archive/hapaitia-te-oranga-tangata/

      Reply
      • Ad 2.2.1
        29 March 2025 at 8:55 am

        All those massive crime stats and its about being a punitive country.

        Get a grip.

        Reply
        • Patricia Bremner 2.2.1.2
          29 March 2025 at 11:25 am

          No you get a grip. You are dismissive and rude. So you don't believe in cause and effect? Well bully for you.

          There will not be an improving climate in crime stats or interactions until more is done in health and drug rehabilitation.

          This Government has less Border staff with more drugs coming in, so talk to that austerity approach and how it is not working very well as crime soars away.

          But it seems personal snarls rather than discussion is your go to today.

          National have with the connivance of some media presented MP Paul's comments out of context, and used them to distract from evidence of utter failure.

          Perhaps you are playing devil’s advocate too well?

          Reply
        • Phillip ure 2.2.1.3
          30 March 2025 at 10:46 am

          @ad..

          Could you post some of those 'massive crime stats'…

          I was under the impression that nz was echoing other countries…and seeing a drop in crime ..

          ..and don't we already have one of the highest rates of imprisonment in the world..?

          And of course Ms. Paul is accurate/measured in all she said ..

          For many nzers the police do not bring reassurance…but alarm..

          To deny that is kinda ridiculous..

          Reply
    • KJT 2.3
      29 March 2025 at 12:43 pm

      Because "sending more young people to crime University which also doubles as the best gang recruitment sites", has worked so well?

      Reply
  3. tc 3
    28 March 2025 at 4:34 pm

    Business as usual for the coalition with the bluster, bs and wilful use of misinformation.

    Opposition need to remind themselves the media is part of the problem so focus on their broken promises, breaking our health system and closing down NZ in many areas.

    The migration numbers say it all. How about getting a key poster from 08 with luxons face saying goodbye to your loved ones.

    Reply
  4. roblogic 4
    29 March 2025 at 9:27 am

    Of course, the biggest crooks in New Zealand (a colony founded on theft and murder), are the white collar crims and tax evaders.

    If they are serious about crime, fund the SFO properly

    And look to the causes of crime. Hint: neoliberalism

    Reply
  5. AB 5
    29 March 2025 at 10:42 am

    As an old white dude, I would feel somewhat safer with more cops on the streets, because I'm exactly the sort of person they are likely to protect. But then I don't feel particularly unsafe anyway. If I was equally law-abiding, but young and brown, I would probably feel on edge – because youth and brownness are assumed to be markers of inherent or incipient criminality.

    All that is pretty self-evident, but Tamatha Paul should understand that the truth on its own is not politically sufficient when much stronger forces are ranged against you. These forces are not only a propagandist media, but much more problematically, the lived experience of the non-Maori majority. The Greens need to keep working at the level of policy that bundles crime prevention, poverty reduction, countering gangs and policing into a coherent thing and make a rational and economic case for following it.

    Listening to her though, I was impressed by the clarity and force of how she spoke and thought. A world away from a bumbling sloganeer like Luxon. She should not take risks that jeopardise her future.

    Reply

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