Where to for National?

Written By: - Date published: 8:16 am, October 20th, 2017 - 186 comments
Categories: national - Tags: , , ,

National need to take a long hard look at themselves.

English and Joyce ran a stupid campaign, trying to get a FPP result in an MMP world. Trying to burn off NZF was crazy, and you can bet it figured in Peters’ decision to go with Labour.

Getting rid of these two would also go some way to removing the taint of dirty politics and lies that hangs heavy about the Nats. Apologising for the blatant fiscal hole lie would go some way to restoring their credibility.

But there’s plenty more dead wood that needs to go. Brownlee. Smith. Coleman. Bennett. Collins may fancy herself as a future leader, but she is too closely associated with the dirt.

The new Nat leadership team, whoever it is, then need to try and figure out how MMP works. Build some actual relationships with real parties. Try not to be such a laughingstock next time you need to come begging to the Greens for help.

Good luck.

186 comments on “Where to for National? ”

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  1. roy cartland 1
    20 October 2017 at 8:43 am

    Joyce looked sick in the press conf last night, and rightly so. But as for where to – would it be too much to ask that they become an actual national party?

    • Agora 1.1
      20 October 2017 at 3:43 pm

      The context of 1951 when it was formed included the Korean war – still frozen in durable armistice – and the waterfront crisis after which conservative rural parties branded themselves ‘national’ to win.

      Winston called their bluff by forming ‘NZ first’.

      ‘National’ are now facing an existential crisis.

      Aotearoa is not the same country it was in ’51 – nor are the USA or Korea, technology has moved on.

      This post can simultaneously be read in Pyongyang, Seoul, Washington, Moscow, and Beijing.

      All we lack is the will. Would it be too much to suggest a peace conference in Queenstown ?

    • cleangreen 1.2
      20 October 2017 at 5:59 pm

      100% Roy,

      The word ‘National’ means “for the people of that country”

      Looking at this carpetbagging devious Junta no one would beleve they are ‘for us the people’ would they.

  2. millsy 2
    20 October 2017 at 9:02 am

    National are going to throw EVERYTHING at Labour/NZF/Greens through. There will be no mercy given. And it’s mates in the business community (and the Chinese government)_are going to make things pretty hard as well.

    The new government needs to have its shit together at all times. Discipline, discipline, discipline. Any weakness must be found and fixed up before the opposition finds it.

    • roy cartland 2.1
      20 October 2017 at 10:07 am

      I agree, because at this point, that’s all they know. And the corporate MSM are going to do their best to help them do it.

      • garibaldi 2.1.1
        20 October 2017 at 10:28 am

        Where to now for National?
        Same old same old dirty politics ie business as usual. They will indeed be strong opposition to the changes this potentially great coalition have to make to bring back some sanity to our society.

        • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.1.1.1
          21 October 2017 at 9:40 am

          Absolutely – and a very well funded PR machine. Lies can trump truth when the volume is loud enough.

    • Stuff The Politicians 2.2
      20 October 2017 at 1:25 pm

      And don’t you forget the lies that Joyce, English and Bennett told.
      We will be getting many made up stories from these crims for the next nine years in Oppositition.

      However, I reckon Labour/NZ First and the Green Party have ample grenades to lob back at National as well as the heavy hitters to do so.
      This is one good thing of having Peters on our side, he knows where the shit is hidden and by whom.

      And all those Lies.

    • Nick 2.3
      22 October 2017 at 11:41 am

      This! Your first paragraph is true. (I’d say true-ish, but lets not quibble.)

      But there is limited point complaining about things you can’t control, Given the tack of negative right-wing propaganda, it’s especially important for this government to present an image of competence.

      Something Helen was incredible at, IMO.

  3. Zorb6 3
    20 October 2017 at 9:04 am

    Hope and pray they elevate Bennett.Her as leader of the Opposition would seal another term.

    • Hanswurst 3.1
      20 October 2017 at 9:12 am

      Indeed. Bennett is one of the select few whom I would consider capable, under the right circumstances, of leading National to oustrip even English’s dog of a result in 2002.

  4. Gristle 4
    20 October 2017 at 9:16 am

    I think you are wrong by limiting the Dirty Politics to Joyce and English. There are other like Collins and Bennet who have been initimitely involved in this approach. No doubt the culture of the parliamentary National Party is heavily tilted to finding this type of approach as being acceptable. Changing culture is going to take way more than a couple of “yesterday’s men” walking off into company boardrooms.

    Further, National are incredibly well funded. Putting money and a dirty politics culture together is like say a man with low moral goals and dubious mental position in a room with 29 rifles on the 32 nd floor of a hotel overlooking 20,000 concert goers.

    We are all aware of the car wreaks National had over the last 9 years: swimable rivers, sheep gate, orvida, leaking private super problems to the press, Key’s lies, ponytails, $11b holes etc etc etc. To me these has shown a bunch of people who are in serious need of deep and sustained counselling on ethics and morality. So what does that say about the people who voted for them. You know, 44% of New Zealand. The 44% of us who don’t find that sort of behaviour by Government, themselves or others to be acceptable and expected. Is this the bigger problem?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1
      20 October 2017 at 9:34 am

      It’d be good if this bullshit about the proportion of venal idiots in the country was put to bed once and for all.

      1,152,075 witless dupes and criminal trash voted for the National Party.

      New Zealand’s population is 4.6 million.

      NZ has 3,569,830 enrolled eligible voters.

      Do the Math. 44% it isn’t.

      [lprent: Fixed an error in your numbers. See http://www.elections.org.nz/research-statistics/enrolment-statistics-electorate ]

      • Barfly 4.1.1
        20 October 2017 at 10:24 am

        Compulsory voting anyone?

        • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.1.1
          20 October 2017 at 10:28 am

          I’m ambivalent on that subject. Australia has compulsory voting: has it improved their electoral choices?

        • Patricia Bremner 4.1.1.2
          20 October 2017 at 4:38 pm

          Yes I think compulsory voting Barfly. We need civics education and MMP education.

          Politicians who are proven to have lied/made a mistake, should be fined, 3 strikes you are out!!

          We need to consider funding elections and limiting additional funds.

          We need a government ombudsman who assists the electoral commission to examine anomalies. With teeth!! IMO

          • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.1.2.1
            21 October 2017 at 7:24 am

            Politicians who are proven to have lied/made a mistake, should be fined, 3 strikes you are out!!

            No to this: Parliament is sovereign and must be allowed to discipline members without interference. Separation of powers and all that.

            We need to consider funding elections and limiting additional funds.

            Yes to this. Get the money out of politics. The sale of access to ministers is obscene.

      • Dan 4.1.2
        20 October 2017 at 3:45 pm

        “1,152,075 witless dupes and criminal trash voted for the National Party.”
        Right, let’s get one thing straight. Just because someone doesn’t vote according to your held beliefs does not mean that gives you the right to label them all as you have.
        IS this not time for some mature discussion and debate that this result engenders.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.2.1
          20 October 2017 at 5:12 pm

          Yes, you’re right, freedom of expression is guaranteed by law, not voting patterns.

          Let’s have that mature discussion then: why can’t the National Party get elected without telling lies? Why do some voters fall for their relentless corruption and dishonesty?

          I think Nature Neuroscience gave us a big clue when they published evidence of part of the mechanism behind pathological lying. That and the fact that the National Party sells legislation to its owners is a reasonably satisfactory explanation for the phenomenon.

          Why do you think they do it? Is it simple bigotry and hatred of solo mothers, perhaps?

          • Dan 4.1.2.1.1
            20 October 2017 at 6:54 pm

            You’ve swung from supporters to the party there. I was merely having a go at your attitude towards those who voted for them. As Lurgee say below, how does this help the situation? Attacks never will and never have changed the discourse nor persuaded minds. This country not any other will ever truely move forward with a partisan approach to politics, it’s enough of an ego driven game as it is without having to always pitch up on one side. Anyhow I feel I’m veering off to drivel now. We can perpetuate stereotypes but at the end of the day 98.66% of us are all people voting for what we believe will hopefully achieve the same goal.

      • lurgee 4.1.3
        20 October 2017 at 6:23 pm

        1,152,075 witless dupes and criminal trash voted for the National Party.

        And you wonder why Labour stuck on 37%, when their supporters display such a charming attitude.

        FFS, these ‘witless dupes anf criminal trash’ are the people we need to persuade to vote for the left if this dubious coalition is going to be anything more than a one off novelty.

        You sound like some right wing jerk off merchant talking about Labour voters. Hideous attitude to display towards people. No wonder you insist on anonymity!

        • Muttonbird 4.1.3.1
          20 October 2017 at 7:01 pm

          The only one sounding like a right wing jerk off merchant is you.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.3.2
          20 October 2017 at 7:08 pm

          I support the Greens. Pay attention.

          Have you got a better description of people who vote for liars and their lies, other than “witless dupes”? Assuming they’re fooled by the lies that is.

          I note that they vote for people who run a rat-fucking operation out of the PM’s office, but my harsh language has you clutching away at those pearls of yours. Perhaps they’re more robust than you give them credit for.

          • ropata 4.1.3.2.1
            20 October 2017 at 7:16 pm

            They are witless dupes if they really thought they were getting a massive tax cut / house price spike & planned their finances accordingly

            They are immoral trash if they were aware of dirty politics and the lies upon lies and scandals around Oravida, SkyCity, Panama Papers, Ponytails, and 450 deleted texts, but still chose to believe arsewipes like Hooton and Hosking

          • lurgee 4.1.3.2.2
            20 October 2017 at 8:33 pm

            I don’t care if you voted for the Greens. You can add their vote onto Labour’s and it still comes to less than National’s alone. That’s a problem.

            I doubt the people who voted for National are witless and probably no more duped than you or I. Nor are they criminal trash.

            They made a decision. We need to understand why they made that decision and work out how to change it. Otherwise, 37% may be a high water mark for the foreseeable future.

            Calling them names on the internet might be cathartic but it isn’t going to win any votes.

            • ropata 4.1.3.2.2.1
              20 October 2017 at 8:48 pm

              No we shouldn’t waste time reaching out/being polite to Nat voters. Anyone who voted Nat in the last election is a lost cause. The future and the potential for Left voters is among the disconnected masses and youth.

              The remaining hard core rump of Kiwiblog selfish RW dickheads need to be discouraged and their dirty politics dismantled. They need to be called out on their lack of morals.

              • Dan …
                20 October 2017 at 11:50 pm

                Not being willing to reach out is a complete and utter disregard from what I consider a social obligation. If they aren’t willing to, who cares. Step up and be the one that does. To absolve the left of any dirty politics as I said in a previous comment is naive at best ignorant at worst. Yes I have a better description of the witless dupes as could I come up with any number of names that could be aimed at this “side”. What good does this crap do though other than reinforce the other argument. Perhaps I am being naive and I am just part of a group of friends with very differing options on avenues this country should take and can undertake a reasoned discourse

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  21 October 2017 at 7:01 am

                  To absolve the left of any dirty politics as I said in a previous comment is naive at best ignorant at worst.

                  It’s just that you’ve utterly failed to produce even a skerrik of hearsay to back up your argumentum ad nauseam.

                  You’re so sure it’s true you can’t even think of an example!

                  Confronting people with evidence of their perfidy and/or gullibility is a perfectly good way to “reach out” if you ask me.

                  So why can’t you manage it?

                • ropata …
                  21 October 2017 at 5:59 pm

                  Because the other side is not reasonable. Dirty Politics was their idea. They believe all the shit that DPF Hosking and Hooten constantly churn out. They do not have the best interest of NZ at heart. They voted to profit themselves, and steal from the future of our tamariki.

                  They “want to believe” that John Key was a good guy and the Left is just bleating about homelessness and sick kids and poisoned rivers.

                  They are willing to let NZ go to hell for the sake of their fucken property portfolios.

                  No respect from me

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                21 October 2017 at 7:17 am

                A truth and reconciliation commission with the power to compel witnesses 😈

                NB: breathless wingnuts and Wayne Mapp should not take this as a serious suggestion. At least not the compulsion part.

              • lurgee …
                21 October 2017 at 7:37 am

                No we shouldn’t waste time reaching out/being polite to Nat voters. Anyone who voted Nat in the last election is a lost cause. The future and the potential for Left voters is among the disconnected masses and youth.

                Don’t forget what the view from the opposition benches looked like, then, because we’ll be back there soon enough, and for another nine year spell.

                The youth and the disconnected voters … the ‘missing million’ … It never ends. If the disconnected voters didn’t show up during the last nine years, why the Hell are they going to bother now?

                Be realistic. You can’t pin your hopes on a (largely fictitious) group of people who couldn’t even be bothered to show up to vote against a government that was brutalising them.

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  21 October 2017 at 8:31 am

                  largely fictitious

                  Meanwhile, on Earth, turnout increased between 2014 and 2017.

                  I’m hoping someone who can read statistics properly* will give us a demographic breakdown of the result. Was there a small ‘youthquake’, for example?

                  *cough*Swordfish*cough*

                  • lurgee …
                    21 October 2017 at 8:44 am

                    Yeah, it was about the same as 2008’s turnout. Lower than 2005’s.

                    The elections inbetween have been characterised by slightly lower than typical turnouts – when Nationally was cheerfully putting the poor and vulnerable to the sword. Almost as if the ‘missing million’ was a bit of a myth. They just aren’t going to show up, in particularly high numbers.

                    I will also be interested to see the Ruminations of Swordfish.

                    Though as for the ‘youthquake,’ it looks like it was a bit disappointing. We need to look at what Momentum were doing in Britain and see it it can work here.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.3.2.2.2
              21 October 2017 at 6:56 am

              I doubt the people who voted for National are witless and probably no more duped than you or I

              Can you describe a National Party philosophy or policy that has factual foundations?

              “Poverty is caused by the poor choices of poor people”.
              “The DPB is an incentive to procreate”.
              “Raising the minimum wage causes unemployment”.
              “The Market is more efficient at delivering public services”.
              “Get tough on crime” (but not when white people do it).
              “Wealth trickles down”.
              “New Zealand is not a tax haven”.
              “Unions are evil”.
              “Labour will wreck the economy”.
              “The Bill of Rights Act is optional”.
              “Personal responsibility”.
              “Rockstar economy”.
              “Bludgers”.

              …and of course, bubbling under all this, festering away until an Orewa speech lets it spew out again…”Those Maaaaaaariiiiis!”

              Feel free to add your own.

              Anyone who believes even one of those things is a dupe. They heard the leader say it and that’s all the evidence they need.

              Naturally, there must be someone in their ranks who knows these things are lies, because they invent them, and then David Farrar writes them up on his blog. If I tell you a bunch of lies and you give me your money as a result, that’s called fraud. Hence “criminal”.

              They made a decision. Do we really need more than Garrett et al to understand why?

              Propaganda is nothing new. It works the same way in every country: “Wenn du lügst, dann lüge gründlich…”

              • lurgee …
                21 October 2017 at 7:39 am

                I recall National being down at 22% not so long ago.

                Or have people only become so gullible in the last few years?

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  21 October 2017 at 8:07 am

                  What happened between then and 2005? Oh yeah, the Orewa speech.

                  Also, consider the effects of two decades of neo-liberalism and entrenched inequality; the erosion of trust, the increase in cruelty and meanness that accompanies them.

                  National Party values will take a long time to heal.

                  • lurgee …
                    21 October 2017 at 8:35 am

                    One speech from Don Brash turned almost half the population into into knuckledragging racist idiots?

                    Has he got mind control powers? We need some of those!

                    And if people are cunningly confused by the web of lies Brash et al have been weaving for the last 12 years, how does referring to National voters as “‘witless dupes and criminal trash” help counter the deceit? Talking to them reasonably seems a more sensible approach.

                    Which takes us back to my earlier point …

                    • lurgee …
                      21 October 2017 at 8:47 am

                      FWIW, obviously, “almost half the population” is a grotesque simplification, before OAB starts ANOTHER rant about how it isn’t 44% of the population.

                      WE KNOW. We’d rather not waste time splitting pixels about it.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      21 October 2017 at 8:47 am

                      One speech from Don Brash turned almost half the population into knuckledragging racist idiots?

                      …

                      Talking to them reasonably seems a more sensible approach.

                      What if they were already knuckledragging racist idiots? That seems more likely. In which case I’m glad they’re nowhere close to half the population 😉

                      Play ‘good cop’ as much as you like. I’ll try not to write any speeches for the Prime Minister.

      • Gristle 4.1.4
        21 October 2017 at 2:17 am

        OAB given that the General Election is the biggest opinion poll that is carried out in NZ, I believe that it has a result that can carry a statistically valid inference to how the entire voting age population.

        I’m not sureally which battle you are fighting. It appears to me that your approach is linked to people arguing that National should be governing on the basis of its voting support. This is irrelevant here.

        The weakness with my argument is the linkage between vote and acceptance of DP behaviour by voters.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.4.1
          21 October 2017 at 7:14 am

          I’m not sureally which battle you are fighting.

          The one where “44% of the population” becomes a ‘fact’ by repetition – the way all lies becomes ‘facts’.

          Your beliefs about the political affiliations of non-voters are neither here nor there: we have detailed information on the demographics in question, and a good deal of political research and analysis (admittedly with its detractors) in support of the theory that higher turnout favours the left.

          It’s bad enough that roughly a quarter of the population can be fooled into voting for the National Party. Utterly deceived, their worst instincts targeted, their fears magnified, and then turned upon their neighbours.

          So that’s why you don’t get to say 44%.

  5. Enough is Enough 5
    20 October 2017 at 9:20 am

    Unlike any outgoing government in history they won’t be needing to totally press the reset button, as they are after all the most popular single party in parliament.

    With that comes a massive resource like no other MMP opposition has had. So long as they can keep their discipline they will remain a very dangerous beast.

    I expect we will see half a dozen of their front bench call it a day before Christmas, English, Joyce, Smith etc. But with that comes the renewal that the election result did not really give them.

    They will be a nasty caged beast.

    • red-blooded 5.1
      20 October 2017 at 12:11 pm

      I’m not sure we should expect English to go anywhere anytime soon. He did get 44% of the vote, and the Nats won’t want to look like they feel they were actually beaten – they won’t want to show any sign of remorse or what they might interpret as weakness. I could be wrong, but I think the top dogs will stick around, at least for a while. Whether they’ll refresh during this term is another question – I suspect it depends on how well they’re doing in making life difficult for the new government.

      • cleangreen 5.1.1
        20 October 2017 at 12:51 pm

        Yes redblooded

        Send Joyce to the scrap heap!!!

        But keep Bill as a ‘stooge’ for the next ‘go-around’ as he is quite febble really.

        • lurgee 5.1.1.1
          20 October 2017 at 6:28 pm

          44% is feeble? What does that make 37%?

          Remember, in 2020 Jacindamania will have worn off, and the electorate will be frustrated with the government (they are ALWAYS frustrated with the government) and will be wondering why they ever cast votes to allow that rabble to trick their way into power …

          National – and maybe even Bill English (he’s only 61) – could still come roaring back in 2020.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 5.1.1.1.1
            20 October 2017 at 7:22 pm

            Fearmonger.

            • lurgee 5.1.1.1.1.1
              20 October 2017 at 8:27 pm

              Truth can be scary.

              • Stuart Munro …
                20 October 2017 at 8:44 pm

                Oh – so that’s why the Gnats lie – mustn’t frighten the munters eh.

                • lurgee …
                  20 October 2017 at 8:48 pm

                  Gnats can go fuck themselves. I’m more worried about the comforting lies the left is telling itself.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    20 October 2017 at 9:00 pm

                    What, you mean the 1st Rabble government might have to akshully improve people’s lives or sommat?

                    Deep insight you got there.

                  • Stuart Munro …
                    20 October 2017 at 11:46 pm

                    I expect we can let them be sworn in before presuming their complacency has become a morbid condition.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      21 October 2017 at 7:29 am

                      😆

                    • lurgee …
                      21 October 2017 at 7:46 am

                      I wasn’t referring to them, dunderhead. I’m sure they know just how difficult making this work will be; I meant the overly enthusiastic boosters hereabouts who actually seem to think this is actually November 1917 (a strange delusion they seem to share with the turds on Whaleoil) and who have forgotten the first rule of NZ politics – “Keep Well Away From Winston.”

                      I’m happy Labour and the Greens are in government. I’m fucking terrified that Winston is there to. I’m anticipating a long, frustrating and often disappointing three years – and if we’re not careful, ending up with National sweeping back in, in 2020.

    • Et Tu Brute 5.2
      20 October 2017 at 2:13 pm

      Correct. They’ll also be funded higher than the government parties combined. So no big forced pruning. It will be very interesting.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 5.2.1
        20 October 2017 at 5:17 pm

        Depends.

        A lot of that cash National’ve been hoovering up is attracted to power, not ideology. If you can call corruption an ideology.

  6. Keith 6
    20 October 2017 at 9:21 am

    The rotten wood, for want of a better term, runs so deep in National there will be few who are not raised on the default dishonesty model and who are not card carrying dirty politics practitioners.

    It dawned on me that today marks the end of THE most dodgy sleazy government’s this land has ever seen where you were lucky if you got half truths let alone something approaching reality.

    Priority must be given to the vast backlog of OIA requests to shine the cleansing light of day on all the Nats have been hiding!

    • Robert Guyton 6.1
      20 October 2017 at 9:27 am

      There will be material aplenty on the actions of National Party ministers, now available to the new Government that can be used to counter any muck National might choose to fling over the next few years.

  7. Robert Guyton 7
    20 October 2017 at 9:24 am

    Where to for National?
    Pizza delivery? Blue uniform, little clown cars with an “N” emblazoned on the side?

    • Alan 7.1
      20 October 2017 at 10:14 am

      Running the ANZ bank actually, not a bad job

      • Barfly 7.1.1
        20 October 2017 at 10:25 am

        Glad I don’t bank there – it’s a pain changing banks after all

        • Wensleydale 7.1.1.1
          20 October 2017 at 12:52 pm

          ANZ have always been wankers. When I was a young fella, I worked for two years in Australia and then returned to New Zealand. I asked ANZ Australia to transfer the balance of my credit card to my Westpac account here, and they gave me every excuse in the book as to why it simply couldn’t be done. “Sorry, mate. Can’t do it. Security reasons, you know.” I believe it was only because the balance was in the black that they refused to do it. Had it been in the red they’d be only too keen to hound me until it was repaid.

          Anyway, in the end my old man went down to the Whangarei branch and spat the dummy at them. It’s amazing how fast “can’t be done” becomes “certainly, sir” when you have an irate Englishman causing a scene in full view of other customers.

          Wankers. Key will be a good fit.

          • Brian 7.1.1.1.1
            20 October 2017 at 3:17 pm

            Key must have been good to the ANZ during his tenure. I see the ANZ are also in China- ANZ China.

      • Agora 7.1.2
        20 October 2017 at 4:27 pm

        Chairing the board of directors of a Melbourne-based bank is a bit like returning to Christchurch.
        Not bad for a former Merrill forex trader .. working in Sydney where he subsequently sacked the FX desk and chairing NZ cabinet were relevant experience .. but it raises the question – does ANZ have similar problems ?

  8. SpaceMonkey 8
    20 October 2017 at 9:48 am

    The problem with the National Party is that over the years they have allowed themselves to become completely captured by foreign big-business. I’ve always seen them as standing for law and order (i.e the status quo) and for business (but there was a time when it was for NZ businesses), and things in the domain of traditional conservative politics.

    Since 1984, they’ve sold their conservative values and any principles to Mammon. The end justified the means, as exemplified by the likes of Cameron Slater and Simon Lusk. It’s rotten to the core because it’s all about power at all costs, but only for a few. I believe it was this change that drove Winston to form NZ First, and I think there are still many National voters who haven’t figured out yet just what National has become.

    Now I can see National descending into a period of factional infighting, while the machine that is National takes some time to work out how it needs to morph to retake power. It’s being driven from off these shores. National won’t be cleaned out until legislation is passed preventing foreign organisations from donating to NZ political parties.

    And then there is also the possibility the outcome of any infighting will be new political parties… which probably wouldn’t be a bad thing for National in the end.

  9. ianmac 9
    20 October 2017 at 10:14 am

    There must be good people within National. Remember Winston had a heads up from someone “high up” in National, who was unhappy about the tricks that the Joyce lot were about to play on Winston? Many must have turned a blind eye to the Dirty Tricks era who now think it was so wrong and hope for a better way..

  10. thevoiceofreason 10
    20 October 2017 at 10:29 am

    Lot of wishful thinking here. I agree that some dead wood needs to be cleared, some of it will retire, some will be pushed. As ever nothing is as black and white as the idealogues would paint it but stepping back the Nats need to have a think about longer term coalition partners because that is their barrier to Govt at 2020 and beyond.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 10.1
      20 October 2017 at 10:33 am

      If the G/L/NZF coalition can govern effectively it will keep National’s thieving hands away from the public purse for a while longer than that 🙂

  11. Antoine 11
    20 October 2017 at 10:59 am

    > But there’s plenty more dead wood that needs to go. Brownlee. Smith. Coleman. Bennett.

    What’s wrong with Coleman?

    A.

    • thevoiceofreason 11.1
      20 October 2017 at 11:02 am

      Arrogant, out of touch, high-handed Minister of Health. No place going forward …

    • gsays 11.2
      20 October 2017 at 11:28 am

      Hi Antoine, How is your local dhb and its health services, particularly mental health.
      Coleman reckons it is all ticketty-boo.

    • Enough is Enough 11.3
      20 October 2017 at 11:48 am

      I wouldn’t be surprised of Coleman was the leader by Christmas

      • Stuff The Politicians 11.3.1
        20 October 2017 at 1:31 pm

        And by the end of January he would be gone..

        Like Collins, he unelectable, and Bennett and Brownlee, and Joyce.
        Christ, is there any one left ?

        By the middle of the year they will sending out an SOS to Mr Slippery himself…

    • simonm 11.4
      20 October 2017 at 12:17 pm

      What’s not wrong with Coleman?

    • rawshark-yeshe 11.5
      20 October 2017 at 2:14 pm

      Amy Adams with possible deputy Bridges who will agitate against her.

      Simply less ‘ugh’ factor than Collins, Bennett, Smith, Bennett, Joyce, Brownlee et al …

  12. SMILIN 12
    20 October 2017 at 11:00 am

    National will be working hard on review of how they were in opposition to cobble together a new attack, but the ease they were able to lie then about NZs situation wont be their MO, or will they be able to orchestrate a PR campaign of disinformation that they got away with then, as the power of alternative media has made NZERS far more globally aware of what Nationals neoliberal agenda did to depower human rights in this country
    They will keep up their incessant lobbying on the supposed pitfalls to business ,which will be the everyday chipping away a social policy cost and deprivation to the farming industry of green policies and direct attacks on the Labour finance policies as being the alleged 11 billion hole in their calculations
    Employment will also be another area of attack as the coalition deals to the immigration question
    Get ready for Dirty politics in opposition because national will stop at nothing to discredit this new govt

    • thevoiceofreason 12.1
      20 October 2017 at 11:03 am

      “Get ready for Dirty politics in opposition because national will stop at nothing to discredit this new govt”

      Ummm … that’s the Opposition’s job in Parliament …

      • Robert Guyton 12.1.1
        20 October 2017 at 11:17 am

        Not through using Dirty politics, it ain’t!

        • thevoiceofreason 12.1.1.1
          20 October 2017 at 11:28 am

          Oh come on! Politicians of every colour are not saints. The very nature of it requires combative traits! You want a government to be held to account or would you rather they run free without any check or balance. The end justify the means …

          • Robert Guyton 12.1.1.1.1
            20 October 2017 at 11:44 am

            “The end justifies the means” – that’s the one! The one that brings goodness to it’s knees and rots souls. The end does not justify the means when the means are Dirty with a capital “D”. Imo.

            • thevoiceofreason 12.1.1.1.1.1
              20 October 2017 at 11:48 am

              Such an easy statement to make … what exactly is dirty politics? And don’t point me to some discredited book – you tell me in your own words …

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                20 October 2017 at 11:55 am

                First you have to establish that it’s been discredited. You will fail. That’s on you for being such a dupe.

              • Robert Guyton …
                20 October 2017 at 12:24 pm

                I’ll point you to a book that hasn’t been discredited: Nicki Hager’s “Dirty Politics” wherein you’ll find example after example of unacceptable National Party behaviour. In my own words, dishonest behaviour, consciously chosen and performed, for the benefit of one’s self or team, where it is not justified under the usual measures of a fair society , that’s Dirty.

              • Patricia Bremner …
                20 October 2017 at 6:51 pm

                How on earth did you get that name? Reasonable you are not!

                In my own words, “anyone who thinks the ends justify the means is a dirty crook”

                For if you have to lie and cheat to get your way, that is not politics it is just sleaze.

                There are many politicians who would not stoop so low, and the deserve the title ” honourable”

                Others should be drummed out of office, as they are meant to be representatives of the people, not bloody crooks.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1.1.1.2
            20 October 2017 at 11:52 am

            So civil servants receiving death threats from the lowlife Prime Minister’s proxy trash is all good with you then eh.

            Why don’t you be honest and change your handle to “The Voice of Dogshit”?

            • thevoiceofreason 12.1.1.1.2.1
              20 October 2017 at 12:19 pm

              You can drop the victim syndrome now … the wait in the wilderness is over. Lets see what happens next

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                20 October 2017 at 12:27 pm

                Death threats. You enable and approve of them. It isn’t victimhood: it’s contempt.

            • lurgee 12.1.1.1.2.2
              20 October 2017 at 6:34 pm

              I’m pretty sure physical assault on a cabinet minister has been widely approved of hereabouts.

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                20 October 2017 at 7:01 pm

                Was the physical assault organised and sponsored by the Prime Minister’s office? No?

                Then that’s a nice false equivalence you’ve got there.

                • lurgee …
                  20 October 2017 at 8:45 pm

                  I assume you mean the “cut his throat” and “shoot him” comments aimed at Simon Pleasants?

                  Those threats were not ‘sponsored and organised’ by the PM’s office. The smear was planned and carried out by them, but unless you can prove Slater also posted the comment (wouldn’t put it past him, mind) you’re the one brandishing phony arguments.

                  But of course, it’s okay because it involved one of THEM getting physically abused by one of US. Nothing like a bit of othering and stripping your opponents of humanity and dignity.

                  You’ve read from the Slater playbook, alright.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    20 October 2017 at 9:11 pm

                    Your assumption, your fuck-up.

                    I was talking about Steven Joyce and a dildo.

                    Also, define “widely approved of”. Then demonstrate how the small group of comments on a blog you can muster are equivalent to the abuses of office catalogued in Dirty Politics.

                    Once I’ve read from the Slater playbook I just wait for a Cabinet Minister to call me, right? How does that work again? Your story.

                    • lurgee …
                      21 October 2017 at 8:26 am

                      Good Lord. I know no-one threw a dildo and Simon Pleasants. It was me who introduced the dildo to the conversation (as I do at every opportunity, especially when the Mormons come knocking at the door).

                      You referred to “civil servants receiving death threats from the lowlife Prime Minister’s proxy trash” (which wasn’t accurate, as we don’t know if Slater made the comment, or just some other rightwing psycho on who reads Whaleoil.)

                      I responded by pointing out the double standard in the way Joyce being attacked is regarded hereabouts. The picture was reproduced here as the illustration for a thread as recently as the 6th of September (“Joyce Keeps Digging” by MS.) Bullying and intimidation, being endorsed right here on The Standard. Violence is just Dirty Politics taken off the internet, into fleshspace.

                      Just because one hit was carried out by someone who we might feel broadly sympathetic towards, against someone we’re inclined to dislike, doesn’t matter. Slater et al feel the same about their enemies and he probably thought Sinner’s death threats to Pleasants were tremendously jolly.

                      Either it all counts, or none of it counts.

                      That’s the moral argument. The strategic argument is simpler. If nothing else, as long as we enjoy Joyce being humiliated, we can’t condemn when someone decides to lob a cow pat or a sex toy at a Labour MP. And you know someone is probably going to.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      21 October 2017 at 8:39 am

                      The comments on Whaleoil are the ultimate responsibility of the publisher, as Judge Palmer has recently ruled.

                      Who enabled the publisher? Government ministers, abusing their offices. According to you, that carries the same weight as blog comments by members of the public.

                      False equivalence.

                    • lurgee …
                      21 October 2017 at 8:51 am

                      And the celebration of physical assault on here … ?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      21 October 2017 at 9:02 am

                      …is running pretty close to a breach of the policy about advocating violence. Perhaps you can link to the offending remarks so I can get a better understanding of your whataboutery.

                    • lurgee …
                      21 October 2017 at 9:46 am

                      MICKEYSAVAGE seems particularly fond of the photo of the dildo about to hit Joyce in the face. He’s used it to illustrate threads on four occasions.

                      https://thestandard.org.nz/category/government-and-politics/politicans/steven-joyce-politicans/

                      You’ll find some people endorsing and supporting Butler’s assault on Joyce on the threads active at the time. Example:

                      https://thestandard.org.nz/leave-josie-butler-alone/#comments

                      According to you, that carries the same weight as blog comments by members of the public.

                      Not according to me. I never suggested they were equivalent. You’re cramming those words into my mouth like an American ‘interrogation expert’ waterboarding an Afghan peasant.

                      I pointed out that we’re happy enough to dabble in that sort of thing ourselves. I agree there is an imbalance in the comparison to Collins, Slater et al (otherwise I wouldn’t be supporting anyone) but I think we need to be squeaky clean. We know the media are against us. We can’t complain if we say / do stupid stuff and then it gets used against us. That’s part of the deal.

            • Patricia Bremner 12.1.1.1.2.3
              20 October 2017 at 6:52 pm

              I agree!! One Anonymous Bloke. Disgusting.

          • ankerawshark 12.1.1.1.3
            20 October 2017 at 12:17 pm

            Thevoice ofreason…………..have you read Hager’s book Dirty Politics? If not I suggest you do.

            No one would object to a robust Opposition………..DP, that’s another matter.

          • Stuart Munro 12.1.1.1.4
            20 October 2017 at 12:48 pm

            No it doesn’t.

            For our kind of democracy to function requires truth. Ministers answering questions truthfully and resigning if their policies fail. You can go after someone as hard as you like if they screw up – but making things up if they don’t doesn’t wash.

            The public are not served by ‘combative traits’ applied dishonestly.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1.1.1.4.1
              20 October 2017 at 1:01 pm

              Since when was the National Party about serving the public?

              This is the only reason they ever get elected.

              • Stuart Munro …
                20 October 2017 at 1:12 pm

                Quite.

                But the process of parliament is supposed to be somewhat Darwinian – gibbering incompetents like Nick Smith are supposed to be forced out so that someone better gets the job.

                Arguably that’s what just happened to Bill’s whole government.

                • rawshark-yeshe …
                  20 October 2017 at 2:18 pm

                  “Arguably that’s what just happened to Bill’s whole government.”

                  Marvelous, thank you. Oh, happy day !

        • Brutus Iscariot 12.1.1.2
          20 October 2017 at 11:46 pm

          The term “Dirty Politics” is a tautology. There’s nothing clean about any of it.

          • Stuart Munro 12.1.1.2.1
            20 October 2017 at 11:52 pm

            There are levels and layers of duplicity.

            Traditionally the rule has been that you can use partial truths to mislead, but outright lying, or bullshitting (which denotes when you don’t even care what the truth is) are not ‘parliamentary’.

            Key of course trashed those conventions – he was a man who honestly had nothing to offer.

          • McFlock 12.1.1.2.2
            20 October 2017 at 11:56 pm

            You’re doing it wrong.

      • rhinocrates 12.1.2
        20 October 2017 at 11:26 am

        I’ve interpreted the opposition’s proper role in parliament to be government in waiting – that is, to present a viable alternative to the government in power (hence my disgust with the parliamentary Labour party over the last nine years).

        Not that I expect National to actually do that of course.

        • Once was Tim 12.1.2.1
          20 October 2017 at 4:46 pm

          Just a q @rhino:
          Tho’ the Labour Party have been a disappointment (over the past 9 years, and probably since the 3rd term of H1 and H2 – IF not since ’84) – who else did/do you hold in disgust.
          I used to get sick of voting for the least worst option, till I realised (quite recently) the worst were positively evil, and the least worst could actually do some good things if allowed.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1.2.2
          21 October 2017 at 7:37 am

          to be government in waiting – that is, to present a viable alternative to the government in power

          The primary function of opposition is to oppose – to provide counter-arguments, to pick holes, to engage in aggressive peer-review. Otherwise how does legislation get tested at all?

          That’s a lot of work. If you can do that and manage to have a fully costed set of policies that have to change every time the government enacts anything significant, then you should probably never have lost the Treasury benches in the first place.

  13. AB 13
    20 October 2017 at 12:29 pm

    Senior figures will start leaving from around the 2nd quarter of 2018 – English, Joyce, Smith, Brownlee maybe others. Some will stay (Bennett, Collins) and the next generation of potential leaders, Adams, Bridges, Kaye will be considering their options. Most likely Bennett or Collins will win a leadership contest, fail to get traction, lose in 2020 and be replaced by one of the next generation leaders. At which point its all up for grabs again in 2023 and will depend a lot on what happens in the world economy.
    My hope is that L/NZF/G can form a natural, long-term coalition which turns National governments into an occasional aberration that occurs only when the population gets amnesiac, but are quickly ejected once they see the cruel and the greedy in action again.

  14. The decrypter 14
    20 October 2017 at 12:36 pm

    Where to for National? I’m asking james, he’ll know.

    • cleangreen 14.1
      20 October 2017 at 12:53 pm

      Where for national?

      The rubbish dump.

    • Robert Guyton 14.2
      20 October 2017 at 1:11 pm

      James still believes National won, 3-0.

      • The decrypter 14.2.1
        20 October 2017 at 1:34 pm

        Oh dear, a cot case the NEW govt will take proper care of. Bit of a background please Robert,- to speed things up. Where is he living now? Is he eating well? Any obvious signs of stress? -Delusion?-besides rugby–“very common with National supporters”.- Key liked rugby. Employed? or a layabout as bill used to say when he was pm. Robert — “Lets do this.”

        • Robert Guyton 14.2.1.1
          20 October 2017 at 1:54 pm

          td – we’re rounding on James, who’s been so gracious in defeat, and run the risk of incurring the wrath of fair-minded commenters here for our flippancy and liking for lampoon. Let’s just say, James is well enough, though his diet gives cause for concern: how much curried goat can a man safely chaw before his arteries rebel? As for his digs? I know he was looking at Northland, with National’s “10 bridges” promise ( spoiled for accommodation choices) but gave that away when they tumbled from grace and power. He’ll be furious though, with the “insider” who fed him the certainty that Peters had made a deal with Key (You bugger off now and I’ll go with Bill) as he’d staked his reputation on his hot tip. Sadly, that too went west, along with Key, English and the rest of the blue crew. So really, James isn’t in a great space just now, though I’m betting he’ll be back on board soon, with a hot-tip about Jacinda’s pregnancy, Winston’s Alzheimer’s and Shaw’s previously-hidden Neo-liberal past.

          • james 14.2.1.1.1
            20 October 2017 at 2:14 pm

            Nope – still here.

            Just to clarify your lies – “He’ll be furious though, with the “insider” who fed him the certainty that Peters had made a deal with Key (You bugger off now and I’ll go with Bill) as he’d staked his reputation on his hot tip.”

            Never said I had an insider – that was my view all the way thru, and it seems I was incorrect. Some friends I talked to thought it might be the case also, but again none of them are insiders,

            “So really, James isn’t in a great space just now,”

            Actually Im fine – but its not polite to try to laugh at peoples mental health – even if you are wrong.

            • Once was Tim 14.2.1.1.1.1
              20 October 2017 at 4:53 pm

              So I guess you’re setting yourself up for victimhood eh James?
              “Actually Im fine – but its not polite to try to laugh at peoples mental health”
              IF so, get in line – behind all the others whose policies and actions/lack of actions you’ve been such an apologist for

            • cleangreen 14.2.1.1.1.2
              20 October 2017 at 6:10 pm

              Just proves Tim; we cant kill bugs easily.

              It will just take some time.

              Stand firm.

          • Patricia Bremner 14.2.1.1.2
            20 October 2017 at 7:00 pm

            Robert, you need to walk round your garden dear!!

            • Robert Guyton 14.2.1.1.2.1
              20 October 2017 at 7:12 pm

              Thanks, Patricia – done that, feeling relaxed. Grandchildren arriving soon. We have a bonfire ready and burning. We’ll eat out there, around the fire. It’s so warm here in the Deep South, so the fire is a little unnecessary, but there’s a change of temperature in the air and by midnight, who knows?

    • james 14.3
      20 October 2017 at 2:15 pm

      Id guess to opposition.

      about time we had a good one.

      • lprent 14.3.1
        20 October 2017 at 4:59 pm

        I really don’t think that Cameron Slater can be revived. I think that the Whaleoil feed of ‘insider info’ and the ‘tipline’ to credulous journos is a somewhat dead route.

        It was noticeable for the underground Dirty Politics absence this election, the National party politicians had to get their hands dirty and the shit tended to back splatter. Like Winston’s superannuation details or Steven Joyces attempts to show that you don’t require an ability to count to be the Minister of Finance.

        • james 14.3.1.1
          20 October 2017 at 9:02 pm

          “I really don’t think that Cameron Slater can be revived”

          Indeed – his site died a long time ago – his viewing numbers must be almost zero.

          • David Mac 14.3.1.1.1
            20 October 2017 at 9:25 pm

            From a frightfully unreliable source I heard that Cameron Slater has sold his blog to Fairfax and he has bought out 3 metropolitan Auckland wheel-clamping companies.

            I am of course making that up but I still reckon Cam would make a beaut wheel-clamper.

  15. ianmac 15
    20 October 2017 at 2:13 pm

    A change of Government means that National won’t be able to feed their discarded MPs safe haven on committees. Carter must have hoped to be Ambassador in London.

    And will knighthoods be abandoned? No Sir Bill? I reckon that was a good reason for Key getting out in order to collect his Sir before they went.

  16. Paul Campbell 16
    20 October 2017 at 3:18 pm

    My pixel wobbling skills are probably not up to it, but I really want a version of that photo with the new coalition collectively giving the finger to the passing natzis

  17. Dan 17
    20 October 2017 at 3:49 pm

    As a realist, to think that the left play clean politics is naive at best, utterly ignorant at worst. This will be a good govt, hopefully great if given time and genuine discourse but let’s face it, it’s politics you don’t advance by being squeaky clean.

    • lprent 17.1
      20 October 2017 at 5:05 pm

      As I remember it last time, the ‘left’ didn’t bother with that kind of crap.

      It was the right that had to try to make putting a signature on a painting a ‘forgery’ matter. Now that was pure trash.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 17.2
      20 October 2017 at 8:08 pm

      As a realist, to think that you get to just make these unsupported assertions of equivalence suggests not so much naivety and ignorance, as a mind that’s adapted to dishonesty, as outlined by Nature Neuroscience.

      When you can demonstrate that anyone in the NZLP or Greens have run a ratfucking (that’s a technical political term, look it up) operation out of the Prime Minister’s office, your point will stand. Until then you just look like one of Steven Joyce’s indentured servants.

      Next time, rather than pretending this is your personal opinion, cut out the middleman and just link to David Farrar saying it.

  18. Once was Tim 18
    20 October 2017 at 4:08 pm

    “But there’s plenty more dead wood that needs to go. Brownlee. Smith. Coleman. Bennett. Collins may fancy herself as a future leader, but she is too closely associated with the dirt.”
    The problems with the gNatz is that the dead wood in the party can be summed up across the various factions as having a common sense of entitlement.
    Uber competitive, egotistical and lacking in any sort of compassion, any merits measured by way of a book keeping entry – indeed the measurements utterly fucked to the point of sociopathy.
    You cite Brownlee, Smith, Coleman, and the relative new bees Paula and Jude.
    There are SO many others that could share the dysfunction of their being lacking in any sort of empathy for the human race – unless, (maybe) it’s based on 19th Century-type concern for the poor unfortunates, where any solution is based on philanthropy rather than any concept of a government taking responsibility for the welfare of all.
    An Amy Adams, a Soimun Brudjizz at one end, and even the other – a Chris Finalyson.

    If all this new government ever did was to repeal every piece of legislation passed over the last 9 years, it’d be an improvement to what we have now.
    And I’d challenge business, bankers, journalists (shit – there aren’t too many of them left), politicians and others to consider the consequences if that happened.
    It’s a possibility that was what Winnie took into account when making his decision.
    It’s been a shit decade – unless of course you think debt is good, greed is good, homelessness is good, outcomes from health and education that tend to the Darwinian are good, decline in environmental standards are good, and you are a believer in democracy being too inconvenient and inefficient that we should tend further towards the totalitarian. (I’m pretty bloody sure Jude and mates, and even Pulla have a few ideas they’d like to inflict on us – sorry ‘gals’ – my advice would be to go hide behind a gated community somewhere and don’t squeal if some ‘feral’ comes and shoves it up you)

    • cleangreen 18.1
      20 October 2017 at 6:19 pm

      Once was Tim

      There is lots of dead wood all through the government agencies.

      There are many National cling-ons there to as ‘sleeper cells’ I hope they purge them all. – Here is my summary of issues.

      We must have this new Labour lead Gov’t to swiftly purge all former National cling-on’s from all government positions and agencies and SOE’s such as Kiwi rail as these National cling-ons were placed inside kiwi rail and it’s own board to kill our rail system off and isolate the management from public contact, this we know as we have emails from kiwi rail management saying the public have been excluded from contacting all Kiwi rail management last year. Top Board of Kiwi rail appointees by National were Paula Rebstock must be fired now as she was so toxic to Kiwi rail’s survival.

      NZTA/Kiwi rail/Ministry of Transport all must loose their top National Party placed management and be replaced by labour Lead appointed administrative positions.

      A new Minister of rail must be announced by Labour lead government to protect our own Rail company again and setup to restore our regional freight and passenger rail services again.
      The Ministry of the Environment Management must loose all national party appointees also.

      The Parliamentary commissioner for the Environment must re-instate a labour chosen appointee as national have just chosen a former national MP as the new commissioner for the Environment so that is such a bad move and must be stopped.

      “Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment” (PCE) is one of the most important agencies Labour must return full funding to provide complete public services to and conduct regional studies on all environmental issues of concerns to all communities again as labour had set up this agency when last in Government.

      Also included must be similar changes in all Regional Government Management positions as those National appointed managers were becoming un-cooperative with the communities they are supposed to serve.

      We must re-instate the Ministry of Transport as “principal advisory” to Government again, as it was during the last labour Government.
      National had deliberately reduced Ministry of Transport to a door stop for government policies under National and have deliberately advanced NZTA as ‘king of transport’ which is wrong as NZTA is only simply an ‘RCA’ or a (road controlling agency)

      Next we need to return all Government documents to the Former labour government policy platforms & positions regarding the insertion of the “policies for agencies to have regard for “Environmental and Social policy planning” inside all documents supplied to public, Local, and central governments.

      This will ensure we move to save our society’s environment, health and regional wealth of our NZ Nation again after a painful nine year loss to us all.

  19. Ad 19
    20 October 2017 at 4:19 pm

    “National need to take a long hard look at themselves.”

    They really don’t.

    – huge vote
    – massive private and parliament funding
    – giant industry allies
    – refreshed caucus
    – full card of proxies
    – gaining ethnic share
    – media commentators on side
    – ready to govern in a heartbeat
    – seasoned attack dogs in parliament
    – facing weak and inexperienced caucus and cabinet

    Looking at themselves is one thing National don’t need to do.

    • red-blooded 19.1
      20 October 2017 at 4:35 pm

      “Inexperienced” and “weak” aren’t the same thing, Ad. Were the Nat’s weak when they came in with an inexperienced leader and lots of new MPs in 2008? And there are people in Labour and NZF who’ve been ministers before.

      (& BTW, inexperienced is one thing Winston ain’t!)

      • Naki man 19.1.1
        20 October 2017 at 4:56 pm

        Winston is already talking the economy down, what a doofus.
        This bunch of clowns wouldnt have a clue.

        • Richard Christie 19.1.1.1
          20 October 2017 at 5:34 pm

          Winston is giving the public what is now a rare thing, an honest take on the economy.

          Contrast that with Bill English, who, in an otherwise reasonable concession media interview, continued with his “we leave the economy is a great shape and we are to thank for weathering the GFC.” Total bullshit on both counts.

          English is desperate that that spin line is believed by the gullible [Naki men]. It’s the Nats only way to disconnect themselves from the inevitable crash they’ve engineered.

          It ‘s pathetic.

      • Ad 19.1.2
        20 October 2017 at 7:51 pm

        No they were not weak. Nor were they inexperienced.

        Seriously: curran? Ffs

    • Et Tu Brute ? 19.2
      20 October 2017 at 4:45 pm

      Ad, please remind me .. who won the election ?

    • Brian 19.3
      20 October 2017 at 5:08 pm

      And your biggest fear is that this coalition can change all those things in one term.

      -Huge vote- 44% of the VOTING public. A refreshing of the media commentators (maybe not Granny but certainly publicly funded media) to change the propaganda and capturing the non-voters with good policy will change that.
      – massive private and parliament funding- change the funding rules, to get back to actual democracy.
      – giant industry allies- like Talleys? A fair media will expose the gross profiteering, exploitative, anti-New Zealanders
      – refreshed caucus- the infighting within factions will do that
      – full card of proxies: weak, but they’re gonna need them once the ship jumping starts
      – gaining ethnic share- hence, the reason why they opened the floodgates-votes. That’ll change under Winston
      – media commentators on side: not after a cleanout-using the Nats own tactics to control the media
      – ready to govern in a heartbeat: Please don’t use the word ‘govern’. That is done by their funders. Destroying NZ is not governing.
      – seasoned attack dogs in parliament: Once the old dogs leave, they’ll be left with lap dogs and puppies
      – facing weak and inexperienced caucus and cabinet. Sounds like sour grapes to me. Haha, we’re in Government, you’re not!! Stew on it

      • Richard Christie 19.3.1
        20 October 2017 at 5:40 pm

        – media commentators on side: not after a cleanout-using the Nats own tactics to control the media

        For the health of this democracy an overhaul of the NZ’s broken public service broadcasting must be of highest priority

    • lprent 19.4
      20 October 2017 at 5:21 pm

      – seasoned attack dogs in parliament

      Really? Who? As far as I can see they haven’t needed any in 9 years and those who were are somewhat out of practice. I haven’t seen any signs of life in National’s oratory and attacks for a long time. Just minor taunting.

      Basically it took National with the same advantages in 1999 more than 6 years before they managed to shake the lethargy. It required a new generation of MPs coming in and getting seasoned, who hadn’t been in government and who were accustomed to making their own lines rather than having them prepared for them.

      Same thing happened to Labour after 2008.

      I don’t think that it is likely that anything is likely to be different this time unless the Coalition screw up badly and make it easy for them.

      • Richard Christie 19.4.1
        20 October 2017 at 5:37 pm

        I haven’t seen any signs of life in National’s oratory and attacks for a long time. Just minor taunting.

        Even when they did [fiscal holes] it backfired and made them into numpties.

      • Ad 19.4.2
        20 October 2017 at 6:59 pm

        -joyce.
        – collins.
        – brownlee
        – Bennett
        Need I say more

    • David Mac 19.5
      20 October 2017 at 6:01 pm

      We’ve had years of National telling us how lucky we are and how swimmingly everything is going. By a whisker, (Thanks Winston) enough of us are fed up with hearing the hollow lip service.

      If our new government get cracking and the hard real data on the stuff we really care about (family, well being, pride etc) starts improving, the opposition, regardless of how savage, angelic or devious, they’ll be Paper Tigers.

  20. Psycho Milt 20
    20 October 2017 at 4:41 pm

    “Where to for National?”

    DPF has given us his thoughts on this over at Kiwiblog, and has produced a thoughtful piece on how National should take stock, review why there was such a mood for change, look to introduce less-damaging policies and try to build relationships with potential coalition partners.

    Ha! Psyched! No, actually it’s various recommendations for devilish weaselry aimed at driving the smaller parties under the threshold so National can rule alone. Can’t say I was surprised – no doubt the Opposition-mode dirty politics team is being recruited as I write…

  21. Brian Tregaskin 21
    20 October 2017 at 4:50 pm

    Bill English deserves a minute silence as he single handedly almost won it for National
    He was let down by his team in the end –no excuses –the negative campaign won the battle but lost the war in the end.
    It was a loss of biblical proportions, they won’t recover ever with the same team
    Time for a refresh.

  22. Macro 22
    20 October 2017 at 5:05 pm

    As M Hooten opined on 9 – noon this morning 44% of the vote doesn’t get you to be government. This was music to my ears – because it meant that National and their “born to rule” belief in their superiority, have still not learnt the fundamentals of MMP. They thought they had with their puppet Parties over the past 9 years, but over time the public have seen through this ruse and refused to play along leaving National with no friends. As Winston rightly pointed out people voted for change, and the new government has policies that will deliver that.
    Until National wake up and change their policies to reflect the will of the majority and not the wealthy minority, they will not regain the Treasury benches.

    • chris73 22.1
      20 October 2017 at 7:41 pm

      Theres been, I think, eight elections under MMP, National have won four of them

      • Macro 22.1.1
        21 October 2017 at 2:43 pm

        No they haven’t “won” any of them, and neither have Labour or any other party. In the past National have had the support of ACT, Maori Party, United future, and NZF in order to form a government. Over the years they have consumed all of these Parties, or burned them off so such an extent, that they have now run out of support.
        Looking at the policy platforms of NZF as opposed to National I never felt that there was any strong reason to think that NZF would go with National and I have said so on here a number of times. I was not surprised when Winston announced NZF’s decision on Thursday. I would have been surprised if they had gone with National because that was not what the Party campaigned on.

  23. David Mac 23
    20 October 2017 at 5:16 pm

    Winning control of the purse strings was the easy bit.

    The tough bit is going to be walking the talk. Tradesmen buying their first home, a downward trend in suicide, more rivers we can suspend a rope over, families going camping.

    Get these aspects trending in the right direction and NZ will get in behind Jacinda’s government. It won’t matter what National do.

    They’ll be a ruthless cohesive opposition, but for a while, it’s their turn to cop the “My God, they’re always whinging” flak.

  24. Muttonbird 24
    20 October 2017 at 5:39 pm

    I’d be surprised if they don’t start fighting with each other in opposition. Bingles got knifed before after losing and I think it’ll happen again. There’s some massive egos in there and they will not be happy with how that campaign went.

  25. eco Maori/kiwi 25
    20 October 2017 at 5:48 pm

    bill had the cheek to put down our youth and call them lazy ect . It was up to him to provide our youth with employment and a education a safe warm home and enough resources to have a happy healthy prospers life . I wonder how many of our youth he pushed into depression with his dum ass comments man it pissed me off when I heard him say those words. Our youth need to be nurtured not put down so don’t feel sorry for bill because I’m sure he did not feel sorry for our unfortunate people .So did bennett’s dum ass comments. Ka pai

    • Patricia Bremner 25.1
      20 October 2017 at 7:12 pm

      So on the ball again eco Maori/kiwi. You nailed it. Bill had a mandate to make life better for us, but he preferred his “Blue dragons”.

      • Union city greens 25.1.1
        20 October 2017 at 8:00 pm

        To be fair to Bill, not that we should be compelled considering he was a willing enabler, they’ve always been John Keys dirty politics, blood money dragons.

  26. Timbeau 26
    20 October 2017 at 7:49 pm

    They need coalition partners, basically, and they ain’t got none. ACT needs to recruit a rockstar or John Key or someone, or poach an existing MP. Not looking likely

  27. Thinkerr 27
    20 October 2017 at 8:31 pm

    Did anyone read the Herald today? Talk about sore losers!

    Seymour, who I thought was a professional politician, despite my not liking his politics, really let himself down.

    Hoskings thinks MMP failed because it isn’t FPP.

    Heaps of other writers dumped scorn on the new government, particularly on Winston. If that hasn’t informed him he made the right choice, I don’t know what would (welcome to your new home, Winston).

    Winston’s namesake (is that the right way round for the term) Churchill said The venom of a man’s enemies is a measure of his own strength. I believe that. And, if so, this must be one tight, strong government-in-waiting.

    The only article I thought played it straight was one that said our economy is about to be shaken in a way that it hasn’t been since 1984. If that implies an empty-out of all the divisive policies that have caused maybe 2 generations of workers to live every working day like the orange pickers in Steinbeck’s “Grapes Of Wrath” and yet be told that the employee/employer relationship is one of equal power, and get told that the market rate for wages went up by 0 or 1% for you, but I get double-digits, and be given a contract that specifies 40hrs per week, but then performance is measured on completely different criteria, being whether you got everything done that you were given, regardless of how long that takes you, then I can’t wait.

    And, personally, I hope that one of the coalition agreements is a combined decision to pass legislation banning Hoskings from any kind of journalism or media-related role from now on 🙂

  28. Stuart Munro 28
    20 October 2017 at 8:49 pm

    Where to for National? Like the Monopoly card says:

    Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

    • Patricia Bremner 28.1
      20 October 2017 at 10:56 pm

      Right on!!

    • WILD KATIPO 28.2
      21 October 2017 at 3:38 am

      Ha ! ,- there’s more than enough evidence yet to be presented that would incriminate most of the senior members of the National party of treasonous skulduggery.

      Its just the cost of doing so that puts the populace off,… but sure as God made little green apples,…that evidence exists and is out there.

      The great big list of John Key’s big fat lies (UPDATED) « The Standard
      https://thestandard.org.nz/the-great-big-list-of-john-keys-big-fat-lies-updated/

      But then again ,… despite being much less in size than Europe ,… or the combined nations of the world in their fury for retribution ,… and remembering that cost alone didn’t stop the Nuremberg trials from preceding…that therefore we need to learn a lesson from those trials and the morality with which they were conducted and the reasons why ,… and take a moral and principled leaf from those who suffered under fascism…

      What are we ? …. soft?

      Or are we too gentle and forgiving ? ,… and if so ,… is that an excuse to take advantage of Kiwis good grace and tolerance?

      Where does it all stop ?

      There comes a time ,… when enough is actually enough. There comes a time when wrongdoers need to face justice. Unpleasant as it may seem ,… justice needs to be seen to be done. Distasteful as it may be to enforce decency and righteousness. And for 33 years we’ve been tolerant of these bastards and let them get away with economic and social rapine.

      You wouldn’t have two qualms about shooting dead a rabid dog that was threatening your children. So why do we protect these neo liberal bastards? , – they are after your children just the same as that rabid dog. They are after your children to create a generation of debt slaves in servitude to the maintenance of their elitist lifestyles. They want them all in huge debt.

      They don’t give a fuck about the serenity of the family unit and the peace that should be the portion and heritage of a young family thus bestowed.

      Fuck them .

      Are we to be a doormat for every viscous political opportunist and plunderer? , – and take that lying down ? , … The Great Generation that fought the fascists never thought so. They just up and at ’em. No second thoughts. They just did the do and put those ‘ born to rule ‘ elitists firmly back in their place.

      Where they belong.

      Under the boot as firmly as archaic autocratic monarchy’s deserved to be.

      Here’s a hint to what I’m talking about ,… for those born after 1984, … for those who never knew any different ,.. there is in fact ,… a way out . There is an alternative. Take some time. Have a good read. And let what it is saying wash over you and absorb it. And try to control your anger once you understand how we’ve all been played for a song.

      New Right Fight – Who are the New Right?
      http://www.newrightfight.co.nz/pageA.html

      • Stuart Munro 28.2.1
        21 October 2017 at 9:28 am

        + infinity. Hardened crooks like Gnats won’t reform absent a system of punishment.