Young Nats run away from public debate on TPP

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, March 5th, 2016 - 47 comments
Categories: Environment, Globalisation, local government, national, water - Tags: , ,

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Realising the impossibility of defending the indefensible, the Young Nats have run away from an opportunity to participate in a public debate on the merits or otherwise of the TPP.

The Young Nats were called out by Christchurch activist Josie Butler who challenged them to a public debate. Surprisingly and refreshingly, the Young Nats initially agreed. A date was set, a venue booked, and promotion of the debate under way.

Nek minit . . .

—-> Here’s the link to make an on-line submission <—-

 

Meanwhile, the Upper Hutt City Council’s decision to declare its city a “TPP-Free Zone” is looking wiser and wiser. An expert, peer reviewed, paper on the implications of the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA) for local government was released on Tuesday. The paper was co-authored by former city councillor and chair of Watercare Services, Tony Holman, former Member of Parliament and Auckland city councillor Richard Northey, and Professor Jane Kelsey from the University of Auckland, and peer reviewed by Dean Knight, senior lecturer in law at Victoria University of Wellington and an expert in local government law.

There’s heaps in the paper worthy of serious consideration by all New Zealanders. Its the sort of information which will not be made available at any of National Ltd™’s  high-pressure sales tactics MFAT propaganda roadshows.

Just to pick a few of the points raised in the report . . .

1 – “The binding and enforceable rules of the TPP go further than any previous such agreement and will impose new constraints on local governments’ authority and autonomy to regulate and make decisions. Every local authority will have to comply with complex rules across many chapters, and decisions they make that impact adversely on foreign investors will potentially be open to challenge through the investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS) mechanism.”

2 – “Investors from TPP countries will have the power to challenge local government decisions that damage their commercial interests, including disputed procurement or PPP [public private partnership] contracts, planning and consent processes, or blocking price increases for utilities like water or sanitation. …The contracting out of services, greater use of PPPs, including for water, and asset sales will intensify the exposure of local government to the TPP and heighten the risks of investor-state disputes over disputed contracts.”

3 – “Water scarcity is a growing problem, heightened by global warming. The rationing of water on a market basis means human rights and social needs compete with and are subordinated to the interests of those with commercial power. Companies in New Zealand, including foreign owned agribusinesses, already hold rights to extract or use water for irrigation, which are valuable investments that can be protected in the investment chapter through ISDS.”

4 – “Tradable water rights are financial instruments that are protected by the investment chapter against changes that negatively impact on their value, and are subject to the non-discrimination rules in the financial services chapter. A more extensive system of tradable water rights would therefore become locked in through the TPP.”

Its not just national sovereignty the TPP undermines, its also the core functions of local government.

tpp death to democracy

47 comments on “Young Nats run away from public debate on TPP ”

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  1. Draco T Bastard 1
    5 March 2016 at 8:14 am

    More and more we come, under capitalism, to be a modern version of the feudal system where the wealth is owned and controlled by the few and the rest of us work for their benefit. We are on the Road to Serfdom and if we don’t change it soon it will require bloody revolution to take our freedom back.

    • TopHat 1.1
      5 March 2016 at 8:28 am

      Sadly I get the feeling that the later will have to transpire. And though sadly again , I feel we would never be strong enough to take that step.

      • aerobubble 1.1.1
        5 March 2016 at 9:54 am

        yeah but Karl Marx predicted this yet did not see the internet being used to counter such abuses. Say a bottle water company has to given back water licenses as there are other needs, then its possible to PR bomb them. Now for sure its bad govt to lockout the free market of ideas by locking up rights fo a few wealth owners. But then National is the party of bad govt, so bad that they use free trade to hide their dispicable efforts at anti-trade. Farmers wake up to US farm subsides for years to come.

      • Jones 1.1.2
        5 March 2016 at 12:06 pm

        We will become strong enough when there is nothing left to lose.

    • AB 1.2
      5 March 2016 at 12:32 pm

      “We are on the Road to Serfdom ”
      Indeed – Hayek had it all back to front. As we see now, tyrrany doesn’t arise from collectivism but from it’s absence. One of the stupidest most perfidious books ever

    • mosa 1.3
      5 March 2016 at 2:42 pm

      We dont do debates in this country unless the MSM thinks KEY will benefit and can bash the LEFT.
      This is just another example, they will run a mile if they cant put up a valid arguement.
      There has been a yawning gap in the analaysis of the TPPA and policy in general for the last 7 years.
      Key and his mob think Kiwis are halfwits and will swallow anything delivered with a smile and a joke.
      The more complex the better after all this man who walks on water should not be questioned he knows best he was a money trader.

    • JohnChch 1.4
      11 March 2016 at 2:16 pm

      Democratically elected Governments of any colour have an army; corporations only have guards on the minimum wage. Think about Genghis Khan, breaching the Great Wall of China by bribing starving guards.

  2. Tautoko Mangō Mata 2
    5 March 2016 at 8:36 am

    NEW VIDEO: Posted 4 March
    Nobel Prize winner, Stiglitz fact-checks the president on TPP

  3. Anne 3
    5 March 2016 at 8:54 am

    The young Nats would have been told to pull out in no uncertain terms. The Nat. hierarchy (read Eagleson) would have known they would be on a hiding to nothing and could end up an embarrassment to the government.

    • BLiP 3.1
      5 March 2016 at 9:36 am

      ‘

      That’s what I figure, too. National Ltd™ knows that the TPP cannot withstand critical analysis and the last thing it wants is for the public to be informed about what’s actually involved. That’s why the MFAT sales team are preparing a presentation, as opposed to a discussion or, even worse, a Q&A session, and why anyone wishing to attend is being vetted beforehand. So, yep, when news filtered back to HQ about the debate, there would have been a very brief phone call with a very firm demand that the Young Nats pull out before any more damage is done.

    • The lost sheep 3.2
      6 March 2016 at 12:57 am

      If you had the smallest comprehension of political intelligence and basic strategy you would understand why it would be really dumb for the Young Nats to attend the debate.

      1. ‘The train has left the station’ as Little said. The deal is done. Therefore there is no need for the Young Nats to enter the debate.
      2. There is no possible gain in the debate for the Young Nats. As above. The deal is done, and Nationals Popularity actually rose after the signing. From their point of view the status quo is just fine. No gain is necessary or needed.
      3. There is a clear possibility that the organizers will use the event as a ‘stunt’ rather than a genuine debate. Ms Butler has a clear and recent history of same, so on the basis it could not possibly do you any good to be on the receiving end of a ‘stunt’, much better to not expose yourself to the risk.
      4. The people who are still wanting to debate the TPPA are not actually interested in genuine debate. Their position is fixed and there is no possibility they will go into the debate with an open mind. Therefore attempting a genuine debate is pointless.

      You’d have to be an idiot to attend if you were connected with The National Party. But it doesn’t surprise me that some people here can’t comprehend that. Basic Political intelligence and strategy seems to be a forgotten art on the NZ LW.
      That’s why someone as dull as JK can kick your arses so comprehensively.

      • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1
        6 March 2016 at 1:26 am

        Wow, you took all day to come up with those excuses or were you waiting for the official CT line of BS?

      • One Anonymous Bloke 3.2.2
        6 March 2016 at 8:07 am

        some people here can’t comprehend that

        🙄

        Speaking of comprehension issues, not a single one of the LW comments on this post supports this smear.

      • Smilin 3.2.3
        6 March 2016 at 2:10 pm

        So much for democracy and accountability for the masses

      • McFlock 3.2.4
        6 March 2016 at 4:58 pm

        So when the young natsagreed to the debate they lacked the smallest comprehension of political intelligence and basic strategy and were being really dumb.

        We already knew young nats were morons.
        We just didn’t know the current lot were cowards, too.

        • The lost sheep 3.2.4.1
          6 March 2016 at 6:03 pm

          So when the young natsagreed to the debate they lacked the smallest comprehension of political intelligence and basic strategy and were being really dumb.

          Yup. They’ve been given the word from someone with a bit more experience.

          • Anne 3.2.4.1.1
            6 March 2016 at 6:15 pm

            They’ve been given the word from someone with a bit more experience.

            Yup. That’s exactly what I was saying @ 3 which you claim was lacking the smallest comprehension of political intelligence and basic strategy…

            • One Anonymous Bloke 3.2.4.1.1.1
              6 March 2016 at 6:51 pm

              Sheep’s law: there’s a lie in every comment.

              • McFlock …
                6 March 2016 at 11:06 pm

                And when you realise that you’ve accidentally called young nats a bunch of fucking morons, pretend that “lacked the smallest comprehension of political intelligence and basic strategy and were being really dumb” is equivalent to just needing “a bit more experience”.

                • The lost sheep …
                  7 March 2016 at 7:14 am

                  See you two have missed one of my comments? Hate for you to break your perfect record!

                  http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-06032016/#comment-1142621

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    7 March 2016 at 7:53 am

                    Whinge about the culture whilst authoring malicious smears. You’re nothing if not a rank hypocrite.

                  • McFlock …
                    7 March 2016 at 11:15 am

                    does mummy give you so little attention that you are so desperate for ours?

                    • The lost sheep …
                      8 March 2016 at 7:43 am

                      Do I ask you to answer every single comment I make McFlock / OAB? No. (except the one you are afraid to answer)
                      Do I answer to every comment you make? No.
                      Do I answer to even 5% of the comments you make? No.
                      Clearly then, if you think I am seeking your attention, you are deluding yourselves.

                      I don’t need to seek your attention, as you self evidently find me irresistible! Now come my little moths, and flutter to the light.

                    • McFlock …
                      8 March 2016 at 12:07 pm

                      I’m not OAB, dickwad. I don’t answer anywhere close to 100% of your bullshit.

                      Did you really want a response to your comparison of a volunteer-run, volunteer-commented blogsite and the power imbalances in a workplace? I’m not a fan of bloodsports, and even I know that you shouldn’t shoot ducks when they’re on the water.

                      As for your moth bullshit, the fact is that you have helped me understand why some people love shows in the vein of Jackass: stupidity can occasionally be quite amusing to spectators and the people prodding the fool.

                    • McFlock …
                      8 March 2016 at 2:14 pm

                      Do I ask you to answer every single comment I make McFlock / OAB?

                      BTW, looking at your most recent comments, out of 28 or so (all I could be bothered opening) only about half (14:14, but might be occasional double count/miss count) have a direct response from either myself or OAB.

                      So it looks like you’re a damned liar. Again.

  4. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 4
    5 March 2016 at 9:56 am

    More likely they were concerned at the downright frothing lunacy of the anti-TPP mob. On recent evidence, the chances of having violence inflicted on them would have been high.

    Who needs that?

    No-one on the anti side us interested in rational discussion.

    • BLiP 4.1
      5 March 2016 at 10:03 am

      ‘

      Here’s the National Ltd™ Minister for Trade answering a very simple question about the TPP

    • One Two 4.2
      5 March 2016 at 10:41 am

      You’re a self titled, gormless fool

      • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 4.2.1
        5 March 2016 at 11:06 am

        Yes. I am. You may reflect on the ability that insult has to harm me before throwing it at me.

    • Stuart Munro 4.3
      5 March 2016 at 11:33 am

      That’s rich given that the Key kleptocracy concealed the text of the TPP for as long as possible in the hopes of avoiding rational discussion altogether.

      How rational was it not to do a cost benefit analysis? That was rank amateurism at best – but more likely deliberate dishonesty.

    • grumpystilskin 4.4
      5 March 2016 at 12:54 pm

      Serious question Gormless one,
      Are you being paid to post here or are these your actual thoughts?
      If it’s the latter, I pity you.

      • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 4.4.1
        7 March 2016 at 9:45 am

        That’s right. John Key pays me to derail the Standard because it is inflicting terrible damage on him.

        So much delusion.

    • pat 4.5
      5 March 2016 at 8:26 pm

      “McClay acknowledged future governments might end up having to pay out if they infringed on the rights of companies from TPPA countries.

      He could not give a figure for any provisions the Government had set aside to cover expensive legal action.”

      Tut billboard Gormless

    • AB 4.6
      5 March 2016 at 10:17 pm

      “the chances of having violence inflicted on them would have been high”

      Same bullshit line Hooton was running over ‘KDS’ (the fictional ‘Key Derangement Syndrome’ not the really existing and entrenched ‘Key Devotion Syndrome’)

      Are you on Hooton’s payroll?

      Show me someone less frothing, more rational, and less likely to commit violence that Jane Kelsey. You can’t – you just don’t like contrary opinions forcefully and intelligently expressed.

  5. Tautoko Mangō Mata 5
    5 March 2016 at 11:09 am

    “downright frothing lunacy”, “chances of having violence inflicted on them would have been high.”
    Hahahaha. The only violence inflicted on a person at a TPP protest (excluding the pink object which hit Steven Joyce, without injuring him, has been an unfortunate incident by a boy in blue.
    Lunacy, without the froth, is agreeing to have an ISDS included in a trade agreement knowing that the number of ISDS cases has risen exponentially over the last 10 years and that 2015 was a record year.

  6. Jones 6
    5 March 2016 at 12:16 pm

    That is rubbish. From what I’ve seen the anti-TPPA (or more correctly those with concerns about the TPPA) have been wanting a rational fact-based discussion from the start but have been unable to as this Government have insisted conducting everything in secret.

  7. Wainwright 7
    5 March 2016 at 1:08 pm

    Probably agreed because all those Young Party types are true believers and they honestly think the TPP is great and defensible. Then the actual politicians pulled the plug because they know it isn’t.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.1
      5 March 2016 at 1:25 pm

      +1

      That would be it.

    • AB 7.2
      5 March 2016 at 10:23 pm

      Great insight. They are still young and naïve enough to actually want to debate the substance. Bad move – best to do a Todd McLay (as in 4.1 above from Blip) and just totally obfuscate, bluster, look like a smug, de-cerebrate clown and sit down on your backside knowing you have the power and the money and that’s all that matters.

  8. Michael who failed Civics 8
    5 March 2016 at 5:30 pm

    Gutless bastards but I’m sure they’ll all use their daddies’ money to strike back at their opponents. It’s what rich brats do instead of fighting their own battles.

  9. BM 9
    5 March 2016 at 5:51 pm

    Good opportunity for Young Labour to step in and show up the competition by explaining why the TPPA is good for NZ and why Labour is backing it.

    Disappointing, but obviously the Young Nats aren’t up to it, so, go Young Labour!.

    • sabine 9.1
      5 March 2016 at 6:53 pm

      hahahahahahahahahahah

      thanks mate, that is funny shit.

    • Stuart Munro 9.2
      5 March 2016 at 6:54 pm

      It’s all very well but I think Goff has made the transition from wunderkind to eminence gris. Contemporary young Labour are probably not quite so naive about neo-liberals bearing ‘gifts’. But you could try to make the case – if your pro-TPP stance were founded on anything more substantial than string and nothing.

  10. RedBaronCV 10
    5 March 2016 at 9:23 pm

    Well that’s a lot for the average sized local authority to manage never mind the big ones. Looks like the best thing councils could do for themselves would be to in source -bring back inside every conceivable service and expenditure that they can. Reduces the risk of being sued now – because us ratepayers can’t afford this sort of litigation

  11. Aidan 11
    5 March 2016 at 10:14 pm

    I’m glad someone finally talks about water scarcity. This is very real threat. I think the Maori party really let everyone down bigtime by colluding with national to ensure “no body owns water” except the dickheads who are going to claim it

  12. JohnChch 12
    11 March 2016 at 2:25 pm

    Democratically elected Governments of any colour have an army; corporations only have guards on the minimum wage. Think of Genghis Khan breaching the Great Wall of China by bribing starving guards.