Murders out west

Written By: - Date published: 9:13 am, June 12th, 2014 - 204 comments
Categories: class, crime, David Farrar, national, phil twyford, police, poverty - Tags: ,

Murder west auckland

I have always been proud to be a westie.  In West Auckland, or as I prefer to call it Waitakere, there is an exquisite combination of natural beauty, wonderful communities and utterly decent ordinary people.  Ethnically the area is diverse.  Although there are pockets of wealth mostly people struggle to get by but do so with dignity.  There is a deep affection for the area and a willingness to help each other that really makes you proud to be a westie.

Lately West Auckland has been in the news for all the wrong reasons.  Four alleged homicides in less than a month, two domestic, one from a neighbourhood dispute and the latest allegedly involving a 12 year old and a 13 year old and the robbery of a local dairy owner have put West Auckland in the media for all of the wrong reasons.

The deaths have created a deep sense of unease.  What is going wrong?

Local MP Phil Twyford has expressed his deep misgivings:

What kind of country have we become when a dairy owner is killed in his shop at 7 o’clock in the morning allegedly by a child with a knife?

“The young accused were well known to local shopkeepers in a retail centre where begging, intimidation and anti-social behaviour have unfortunately been all too common.

“The community is asking why there has not been a more visible police presence, with regular foot patrols to discourage law-breaking. There is a community constable delegated to cover Henderson but the officer is based in Massey. We’d like to see a community constable based in the town centre, with a shop front on the main street.

The right have responded predictably.  Cameron Slater claimed that Twyford was politicising murder.  Obviously as far as he is concerned it is better for the causes not to be debated.

This claim is deeply hypocritical.  David Farrar during 2008 posted a series of posts suggesting that violent crime was worsening and implying that the fifth Labour Government was responsible and Slater is well known for using crime of various sorts to whip up hysteria.  They have always been willing to run the law and order issue when it suits.  They have also trumpeted apparent crime rate reductions as a vindication for this Government although it appears to me that the reduction is somewhat ephemeral and largely a response to a deliberate decision to deal with more matters by way of alternative action.  There is also an international trend for there to be a reduction in crime rates.  This does not stop the Government from claiming that it is the reason crime rates are allegedly dropping.  But the Government should then wear it if things start to deteriorate.

As far as I am concerned there is a political element to what is happening out west and this is why this Government’s policies should be put under the microscope.  Potential causes include the following:

  1. Poverty.  Three of the deaths occurred in one of the poorest parts of West Auckland and the alleged killer in the fourth was apparently begging.  Trickle down is not working.
  2. Policing.  I have heard that the Waitakere Criminal Investigation Unit is severely understaffed, with up to a third of positions not currently filled.  There are many dedicated police officers working in the area but if the Police does not have sufficient resources they will not be able to do their job properly.
  3. Education.  It is astounding that the Government can find $360 million to attempt to bribe teachers with promises of more pay but cannot increase funding for alternative education.  Imagine what a difference this sum could make if applied to kids who are clearly at risk.
  4. Working conditions.  The right are already saying “what about the parents”.   Sure there are bad parents around.  There are also good parents working inhumane hours just to make ends meet.

I apologise in advance for saying that there is a political element to these dreadful events.  But poverty, policing, education and work conditions are all matters that depend heavily on politics.

We really need to rethink our approach to how our society is running.  Because based on recent events we clearly have a problem.

204 comments on “Murders out west ”

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  1. amirite 1
    12 June 2014 at 9:47 am

    And the society that from its very top governing hierarchy promotes selfishness, unlimited material wealth and disregard for other people’s suffering as new ‘values’ to follow. Every man for himself. If your society despises you and doesn’t care about you because you’re poor, brown or different in some way, why would you love it back?

    BTW, I’m a Westie too and I’d never consider any other place to live. Apart from Northland, maybe. 🙂

    • Macro 1.1
      12 June 2014 at 11:46 am

      +100
      and have been proud to be a Westie too. You might also consider Coromandel amirite – many of the same qualities I found in the West here, with more community focus.

    • mickysavage 1.2
      12 June 2014 at 12:02 pm

      Hail fellow westie!

    • Enough is Enough 1.3
      12 June 2014 at 12:10 pm

      What is wrong with the rest of New Zealand that would have you decide you would never live there?

      As too your substantive point bang on. You can only poke a bees nest so many times before the swarm will come and sting you.

      John Key’s war on the poor was always going to end with this kind of tragedy.

      • amirite 1.3.1
        12 June 2014 at 6:41 pm

        enough is enough -nothing wrong with the rest of the country apart from the climate. I’m a wuss who hates cold ! Even Auckland is sometimes too cold for me!

  2. Sanctuary 2
    12 June 2014 at 9:47 am

    Simply as a taxpayer this so depresses me. No one wins.Not only has a hard working citizen been senselessly killed, but his family has been thrust into welfare dependency by widowhood, and the two accused are but children, meaning that they cost a fortune to keep in prison, and whenever they get out of out ridiculously dysfunctional corrections system they’ll be well young enough to offend again. Surely, if there were candidates for spare-no-expense attempts to rehabilitate it is these two young offenders; But they won’t be. They’ll be out in 8-15 years, hardened criminals whose formative years were spent in the zoo of adult prisons.

    The false economy of our winner takes all, punitive society is laid bare by this latest tragedy. Bad families, poor parents, generational welfare, faltering social services. But this is New Zealand. No one will bother to analyse the systemic failures that led to murder by a child; No one in charge will be held to account for the circumstances that led to such a crime coming to pass. Instead, we will see ridiculous claims that somehow it was just bad people who come from nowhere doing something that was entirely unpredictable who should now suffer a crushing punishment that will do nothing to bring back the victim, assuage his family or prevent this sort of thing ever happening again.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.1
      12 June 2014 at 1:26 pm

      Not only has a hard working citizen been senselessly killed, but his family has been thrust into welfare dependency by widowhood

      Why would that happen considering that the family still has the shop?

  3. One Anonymous Bloke 3
    12 June 2014 at 9:51 am

    The World Bank got the memo, but sadly, not the National Party. I blame their collective low IQ and distended amygdalae.

    Crime rates and inequality are positively correlated within countries and, particularly, between countries, and this correlation reflects causation from inequality to crime rates, even after controlling for other crime determinants.

    • Ennui 3.1
      12 June 2014 at 11:52 am

      I recall in my youth being shown a glittering future full of possibility. As I grew older and the world changed much of this was blown away, but I had however had some benefit from what was possible.

      My good lady works with young people in similar communities to West Auckland. She would note that the youth she interacts with have little reason to believe in the possibility of glittering futures. When little is constantly made less, and less is constantly denied them why would these young people develop any empathy for their fellow citizens? Why would they “buy” in to some future that appears difficult, hostile and alienating, but most importantly unattainable?

      The above scenario is in my view a direct result of 30 years of the philosophy of market fundamentalism and “freedom of choice”. Its easy to be free with choice when you have some, these people never have had great choice. Add to that the unspoken racism and colonisation that is inherent in our society and we are well advanced in creating an uncivil society where consequences to others don’t matter to the perpetrator.

    • Thea 3.2
      20 June 2014 at 6:16 am

      And this is New Zealand being discussed on this page. If I were to be in Africa it would seem as if this discussion was for some African country. Are we going there too, or are we already there?

      • One Anonymous Bloke 3.2.1
        20 June 2014 at 7:18 am

        What an asinine remark. Do you believe New Zealand is special, not subject to the same forces that affect other countries?

        You should tell Treasury and get them to stop measuring the GINI. I’m sure they could use a good laugh.

  4. Weepu's beard 4
    12 June 2014 at 9:58 am

    The government and its blogs are quick to point out that elections are won on the economy and law & order. They have already tried to play this down and attack the opposition for asking questions so the opposition needs to be careful to target the Police Minister, the Social Development Minister, the Finance Minister, and the Prime Minister.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1
      12 June 2014 at 10:03 am

      A perceived decrease in lawnorder will reflect badly on them.

      • Weepu's beard 4.1.1
        12 June 2014 at 10:12 am

        Exactly. The opposition need to make the most of that without falling into the trap that is being set by the government’s PR company.

  6. Once was Tim 6
    12 June 2014 at 10:11 am

    Unfortunately the Natzis just don’t get the connection between poverty and crime – and probably never will from their positions of comfort.
    Everywhere in the world where life is a matter of survival, crime (legally or morally defined) exists.

    What would you do if you were unable to feed your family? Would you consider shoplifting perhaps? Put your children up for adoption? Pimp them out? A matter of degree.
    It’s also understandable those on the bones of their arse 24 hours 7 days all year will seek some form of escapism or anaesthetic.

    The holier than thou just don’t want to see the bleeding obvious – it’s an inconvenient assault on their conscience.

    • Mary 6.1
      12 June 2014 at 10:35 am

      “Unfortunately the Natzis just don’t get the connection between poverty and crime – and probably never will from their positions of comfort.”

      I think they do understand. It’s just that not doing anything about it suits their agenda. They need crime. Any slight decrease in crime means what they’re doing is working, and any increase in crime is an opportunity to look tough so either way it’s a win. Other crucial components as have been pointed out are poverty and low education and along with crime are all needed because their agenda feeds on all of this.

      • Once was Tim 6.1.1
        12 June 2014 at 10:48 am

        yep +1 (from the point of view of political and economic ‘wins’ for them). But its also definitely a way of not having to think about cause or situation too much. Blame and ‘othering’ is a lot easier. It doesn’t matter whether it’s child murderers looking for a quick earn, or those bloody illegal boat people queue jumpers.

        • Gosman 6.1.1.1
          13 June 2014 at 7:20 am

          Crime is generally trending down over the past few years. Care to explain that?

          • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.1.1.1
            13 June 2014 at 7:45 am

            Says who?

            Make sure you factor in changes to reporting methods introduced recently.

            • Gosman 6.1.1.1.1.1
              13 June 2014 at 7:55 am

              Check the links that were helpfully supplied by Mickey Savage. The stats are quite clear. Crime, especially violent crime, has dropped significant over the past 5 years.

              • weka …
                13 June 2014 at 8:08 am

                In other words, the ‘says who’ is Slater and Farrar.

                • Gosman …
                  13 June 2014 at 8:59 am

                  Did David Farrar make up the stats? I believe they are referenced to their official source.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    13 June 2014 at 9:17 am

                    Hmmm one should always dig a bit deeper than the surface level summary statistics to see what is actually happening.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    13 June 2014 at 9:22 am

                    The official statistical reporting methods changed as a result of instructions from Judith ‘Oravida’ Collins.

                    Gosman has already been informed of this. He’s demanding links, but that’s just his way of deflecting from his mendacious manufactured reduction in crime, or his stupidity at taking National Party mouthpieces at face value.

                    Which is it Gosman, are you dupe or duplicitous?

                    • minarch …
                      13 June 2014 at 9:44 am

                      it would be very interesting to see what the courts would do a cattle rustler these days 🙂

                    • Gosman …
                      13 June 2014 at 10:33 am

                      I call BS on this. Please provide a link to some reference to recording of crimes changing significantly over the past 6 years. It would also be useful if you highlighted any opposition press reports detailing this gross abuse and manipulation of statistics for political ends.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      13 June 2014 at 10:48 am

                      I’m glad you call bullshit Gosman, because that gives me the opportunity to rub your face in it, you duplicitous trash.

                      New Zealand Herald, July 20th, 2010.

                      Ms Collins has asked police to collect different crime statistics to show a picture that rewards proactive policing,

                      By April Fool’s day 2011, Granny reported that Figures show 6.7pc crime drop

                      Let’s do this again sometime, Gosman. You tell some lies, then I’ll drag out debunking them for a while for fun, before having you choke on them.

                    • Gosman …
                      13 June 2014 at 11:15 am

                      That is not a link to an article I can independently validate. I have done a Google search on NZ Herald Crime July 20th 2010 and nothing related to what you are stating came up.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      13 June 2014 at 11:29 am

                      You’re absolutely right, those search terms don’t return the correct link. I started with a search on crime statistics at The Standard, which led me to the comment that led me to the link to the Herald article, but I’m just not that interested in helping you find it.

                      Perhaps if you argue in good faith for a couple of years I might reconsider.

                    • McFlock …
                      13 June 2014 at 1:27 pm

                      lol
                      I just put the quote in google and it came back nicely.

                      It must be taxing, trying to think up search terms that are plausible while returning no result, all so he can pretend that shit never got said.

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                13 June 2014 at 8:24 am

                So, we have three things to factor in:

                1. The changes to reporting methods.
                2. Farrar’s National Party-tinted glasses.
                3. Slater’s criminal dishonesty.

                In other words, Gosman, your assertions are as reliable as you are, which is to say not at all.

                • Gosman …
                  13 June 2014 at 9:01 am

                  Is there any evidence reporting methods altered around 5 years ago?

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    13 June 2014 at 9:15 am

                    Yes there is, and you are the one responsible for the claim that crime has reduced, so it’s up to you to show it, not me. I’m not your research assistant, Gosman.

                    • Gosman …
                      13 June 2014 at 10:35 am

                      I’ve already pointed you to the data showing crime generally falling. It is you and not I who claims it is because of a change in reporting methods. Where is the evidence for this?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      13 June 2014 at 10:39 am

                      In the New Zealand Herald, for example. July 20th 2010.

                      Ms Collins has asked police to collect different crime statistics.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      13 June 2014 at 11:03 am

                      This just in:

                      Minister Collins is reported to have asked police to collect crime statistics according to a new metric called “The Oravida Method”. This measures crime according to the distance from the airport.

                    • Gosman …
                      13 June 2014 at 11:26 am

                      Those are not links to an article that anyone can validate.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      13 June 2014 at 11:32 am

                      Gosh, are you saying a Google search for the exact quote returns nothing from the NZ Herald? Or are you just being transparently dishonest and retrospectively validating my contempt?

                    • Gosman …
                      13 June 2014 at 11:43 am

                      Found it

                      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10659934

                      That is not a change you Muppet. That is merely a request for different data on top of the data provided by the Police to statistics.

                      “Meanwhile, Ms Collins has asked police to collect different crime statistics to show a picture that rewards proactive policing, rather then penalising it.
                      “The crime statistics as published by the Department of Statistics don’t give any indication of what’s really going on.
                      “If someone is arrested for a liquor ban, it may end up as a crime statistic, when really it’s a proactive policing statistic. It creates a disincentive for having police out early and stopping things before they happen.
                      “We need to get a far clearer picture of what is actually happening.”
                      Police would report back with the new statistics shortly, she said.”

                      There is no indication that the Police altered the method of collecting the data they provided to statistics up to that point.

                      Regardless note that the article also mentions a fall in Crime BEFORE July 2010.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      13 June 2014 at 11:56 am

                      Planet Gosman, where different equals the same.

                      “…collect different statistics that reward…”

                      Apples, meet oranges.

                      Inequality soared following Douglas and Richardson. To tackle the problem their legacy must be destroyed, root and stem, and their fields sown with salt.

                      There is no alternative.

                    • Gosman …
                      13 June 2014 at 12:00 pm

                      Btw the trend line in crime doesn’t alter much if at all post 2010. This does not support your view that there was a significant change in reporting of crime at that time. If there was it should have led to a even bigger decrease than the previous reporting periods.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      13 June 2014 at 12:08 pm

                      What trend line, you muppet? The one that uses different data depending on who’s in government?

                    • Gosman …
                      13 June 2014 at 12:46 pm

                      No. If I ask someone to gather different data as well as the ones they already gathering that is very different to changing the method of data collection they use for the existing set of data.

                      Regardless all there is here is a proposal. You have provided no evidence of how the data collection actually has altered after this or explained the decrease in crime even before this supposed change.

                      Also where is the opposition comments about the perfidious nature of the changes that were eventually made? Her Majesty ‘ s loyal opposition seems to have dropped the ball on that issue it seems.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      13 June 2014 at 1:01 pm

                      …as well as the ones they’re already gathering…

                      That isn’t what the article says, poppet, it says she told them to collect different stats. Add to that other reports of the switch from recording numbers of witnesses to number of incidents, multiple offenders in the same event recorded as one crime, etc. etc.

                      It all adds up to paint a picture of twelve tenths of fuck-all, obscurantism at its finest.

                      Maybe crime’s gone up. Maybe it’s gone down. From these statistics who the fuck can tell? Which, by the way, is why I also quoted the statistics dept. saying the same thing.

                      So, who to believe, Gosman, the actual source of the information, or the ninth floor? Um, um…

                    • Gosman …
                      13 June 2014 at 1:15 pm

                      I disagree. However even if she did mean that you have not provided any evidence of what the changes actually were to the reporting regime. All you have is a Minister stating she will request for some changes. What were the changes and what impact did they have on crime statistics?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      13 June 2014 at 1:29 pm

                      No Gosman, it’s your narrative. It’s up to you to show the effects of Collins’ changes, and then I’ll destroy those fabrications too.

                      Have a nice day.

                    • Gosman …
                      13 June 2014 at 1:39 pm

                      It is not my narrative. YOU made the claim that the Police changed the reporting regime which supposedly not just underreported crime but presumably turned increasing crime statistics to decreasing ones. They managed to do this without any reference to what changes were made AND seemingly without causing an uproar by opposition parties over this blatant political manipulation of official statistics by Government. On top of this the general population are unaware of the increase in crime to the extent it is not featuring as an election concern to any major degree. A funny alternative universe you inhabit I must state.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      13 June 2014 at 1:53 pm

                      It is your narrative. You have made repeated claims of a decline in crime based on this false comparison, whereas I’m saying that crime may have gone up or down and these statistics do not settle the argument one way or another, because Oravida Collins changed the data collected.

                      The rest of your opinion is as reliable as that new wingnut benchmark, John Banks’ testimony.

              • Mary …
                13 June 2014 at 7:28 pm

                A drop in crime stats over the past five years doesn’t explain or negate or is an excuse to ignore the increase in violent crime including the number of murders over the past thirty years. If you’re using this analysis to rebut the claim of links between crime and political climate then you’re as willfully blinkered as Farrar.

          • Tracey 6.1.1.1.2
            13 June 2014 at 8:49 am

            you are correct and it is a worldwide trend so no political parties can claim credit. John key says law and order is second most important issue to kiwis. Given the decline in crime rates perhaps politicians should stop stirring this pot.

            • Gosman 6.1.1.1.2.1
              13 June 2014 at 9:03 am

              A trend which is at odds with the idea that increased inequality leads to more social problems like crime I might add.

              • Tracey …
                13 June 2014 at 9:16 am

                you might add except that the trend relates to mostly violent crime. Crimes of theft and property damage are still high, and not all reported.there is a suggestion that the increase in technology and surveillance has played a part. Provided you dont try to suggest that lower crime rates points to no inequality.

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                13 June 2014 at 9:27 am

                A trend which has not been shown to exist in the recent New Zealand context. For all we know crime may have reduced, but the National Party’s massaged statistics are an unreliable measure. This from Statistics NZ:

                Changes over time
                From time to time changes occur to categorisation of offences and other variables in these collections. These changes occur for reasons such as changes in legislation or the desire to gain more specificity in statistics for certain type of offences. Caution should therefore be observed when interpreting step-increases and decreases in the number of recorded offences of a certain type.

                Changes in public awareness or tolerance of certain types of offences over time may result in changes in the tendency of people to report crime to police. Caution should therefore be observed when making inferences about long-term trends in crime; particularly for types of offences that are known to be significantly under-reported, such as sexual offences and minor offences not warranting insurance claims or medical treatment.

                And that’s before we even get to deliberate changes in reporting methods introduced by Oravida Collins.

                • Gosman …
                  13 June 2014 at 1:22 pm

                  They have that proviso against ALL the crime statistics from the recent past. Even those prior to 2010/11 when you claim significant changes were made.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    13 June 2014 at 1:33 pm

                    Which means your attempts to score political points off them are simply more evidence of the bad faith which permeates your every engagement in this forum.

            • minarch 6.1.1.1.2.2
              13 June 2014 at 9:27 am

              was this because they took the lead out of petrol ?

              Did removing lead from petrol spark a decline in crime?

              http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27067615

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                13 June 2014 at 9:36 am

                I’ve been meaning to ask, having looked for evidence without success, was there any opposition to the introduction of leaded petrol, and if so, from whom?

                The causal relationship between environmental toxins and crime is relatively uncontroversial; unleaded petrol definitely has a role to play.

                But the link between inequality and violent crime is similarly uncontroversial (the dissenting voices are political rather than academic). So while we took lead out of petrol we also drank the neo-liberal kool-aid, and it’s time that was phased out too.

      • Ennui 6.1.2
        12 June 2014 at 11:17 am

        One could be cynical Mary and suggest that to the Natzis the death of a shopkeeper in the “ghetto” is a small price to pay for the benefits of wealth elsewhere to the privileged few.

    • Tiger Mountain 6.2
      12 June 2014 at 10:43 am

      Older crims know it is pointless doing a dairy, there is little enough in the register anyway exacerbated by Eft-pos. Screen washers, beggars, violence and intimidation are merely the immediate backwash from the failure of trickledown for over 30 years.

      You can lock your car door and hope you don’t breakdown but everyone has a stake in this.

      • Once was Tim 6.2.1
        12 June 2014 at 10:51 am

        Yep, well a lot of ‘older’ crims seem to. I still see a few around doing their ‘shopping’ and wheeling and dealing their anaesthetic on my daily walks.

    • Roy 6.3
      12 June 2014 at 10:49 am

      ‘The holier than thou just don’t want to see the bleeding obvious – it’s an inconvenient assault on their conscience.’

      I’m not sure they have consciences. It is an inconvenient assault on their ideology, though.

      • Once was Tim 6.3.1
        12 June 2014 at 11:04 am

        I suspect we’re essentially agreeing @ Roy see above).

        Back later (so I can witness some of their usual accusations – like you’re a bloody bleeding heart, etc. etc. etc.) :p

      • greywarbler 6.3.2
        12 June 2014 at 11:24 am

        It’s a blip on their day, an inconvenient dirty spot. Not at all like the Blip that we all revere here.

        • Colonial Viper 6.3.2.1
          12 June 2014 at 11:59 am

          Their care is limited to making sure the motorway from South Auckland doesn’t have an off-ramp in their neighbourhood.

    • TE 6.4
      12 June 2014 at 1:57 pm

      +100 so true

  7. Wyndham, George 7
    12 June 2014 at 10:16 am

    The rest of the Police do not take Community Constables seriously.
    Without strong local Police leadership that genuinely likes the population it is serving the police will continue to be a disappointment.
    The Police have locked themselves behind the gang-fortress-style Stations they build. They have a set of excuses ready to put in the media suggesting them have little powers.
    I don’t know the solution to the problems behind these horrible events.
    I doubt the Polic, as currently led, will be a useful part of a solution set.

  8. millsy 8
    12 June 2014 at 10:39 am

    This is a tragic killing, and the thing that worries me is that social conservatives are going to use this as way to push more harder policies of social control over the populace, epecially the youngpoorbrown.

    I am waiting for a press release from Family First blaming the anti smacking law for this killing…

    However, it still needs to be noted that in the past 25 years, from memory there have only been about 5 murders committed by those under 16:

    1) In 1991/92 a 12 year old boy murdered a young jogger, I think he is still in jail and the details are supressed
    2) The 2001 killing of that pizza deliverer — a 13 year old who was look out was jailed for manslaughter — I know he didnt actually kill him, but the media loved to hype it up
    3) In 2009/10 a 14 year old boy killed Liberty Templeman (15)
    4) In Easter 2012, a 13 year old boy shot and killed the partner of his step-grandfather — apparently because he was grounded.
    5) The above case.

    So it is still a small amount — so I dont think we should panic too much.

    FWIW — I think all the woes in society today stem back to Richardson’s 1991 budget. A lot of support for the vulnerable was stripped away then, everything has gone downhill since really. The same thing will happen in the UK, Europe and Australia over the next generation or two.

    • Tiger Mountain 8.1
      12 June 2014 at 10:50 am

      Agree Millsy, the Richardson cuts, sadly continued by Labour plus their “jobs jolt” crossed the rubicon. It is a long way back from calculatedly paying benefits not enough to live on while paying the middle class WFF.

      There is a way forward with a universal basic income of some kind and a Hone Heke/Robin Hood tax.

      • Rob 8.1.1
        12 June 2014 at 11:45 am

        Are you guys seiously arguing that there was no crime before the Richardson budget .

        And your answer to this is more tax. Unbelievable.

        • Tiger Mountain 8.1.1.1
          12 June 2014 at 11:57 am

          are you seriously trolling that line?, mind the door on the way out

          [lprent: Didn’t even tickle my trolling or diversion instincts. It is actually a valid point of view long debated but in this case just not skillfully argued. ]

          • Rob 8.1.1.1.1
            12 June 2014 at 1:00 pm

            Yes I am actually am Tigger. You offer nothing and know less.

            I am a father to two boys 13 and 10. I coach at the local rugby club and water polo team, help out at the local schools on different aspects and also run a large manufacturing operation in South Auckland that employs over 90 in straight manufacturing roles.

            Yeah I am putting it out there becasue you actually need to read what you are saying than just endless repeat your brain dead mantras like they are some sort of solution.

            • framu 8.1.1.1.1.1
              12 June 2014 at 1:12 pm

              “You offer nothing and know less.”

              • and your offering what exactly?

              “I am a father to two boys 13 and 10. I coach at the local rugby club and water polo team, help out at the local schools on different aspects and also run a large manufacturing operation in South Auckland that employs over 90 in straight manufacturing roles.”

              • relevance to discussing trends in crime and the effects of economic and social policies?

              “Are you guys seiously arguing that there was no crime before the Richardson budget .”

              • considering no ones saying this who needs to read again?
              • Rob …
                12 June 2014 at 1:20 pm

                Whatever Framu, obviously I have no relevance in my life experience, as opposed to you who knows everything.

                You carry on doing whatever the f”ck that it is you do with your time, hopefully it might actually be contributing rather than just moaning on blogs.

                • framu …
                  12 June 2014 at 1:38 pm

                  aww boo hoo – you gonna have a widdle cwy rob?

                  “as opposed to you who knows everything.”

                  where exactly did i say that? – oh thats right – i didnt

                  instead – how about you grow up and… read

                  im actually asking you some relevant questions – and your coming back like someone stole your biscuit at play lunch

                  whats with your pissy attitude?

                  • Rob …
                    12 June 2014 at 3:57 pm

                    framu

                    I am stunned and almost numb at what has happened , so yeah, probably will have a little cry.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      12 June 2014 at 4:05 pm

                      You’re a good community minded man Rob, I just wonder why you don’t see the need for a youth full employment policy or UBI policy which will help sort out a lot of the youth poverty which drives crime and anti-social attitudes.

                      You’ve got to give young people who have been dismissed and denigrated by the system real ways back into productive society.

                    • tinfoilhat …
                      12 June 2014 at 4:10 pm

                      Are you proposing compulsory service (military, public etc) for youth upon leaving education and prior to joining the workforce.

                    • framu …
                      12 June 2014 at 4:12 pm

                      yeah will its in my neighborhood so im a little stunned as well

                      thanks for toning it down (lord knows we all get worked up from time to time) – but your still avoiding everything ive said

                      so… about those points i was raising?

                      an apology for your appalling insults and attitude to me and others, up thread wouldnt go astray either – but i will leave that as “your call”

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      12 June 2014 at 5:37 pm

                      Are you proposing compulsory service (military, public etc) for youth upon leaving education and prior to joining the workforce.

                      They will be in the workforce – in paid employment with expectations and responsibilities. Anyone 25 or younger who wants a full time job can get one – and be expected to perform up to its requirements.

                    • Gosman …
                      13 June 2014 at 7:25 am

                      Rob might well think that the private sector is the better option for creating long term sustainable jobs for youth and the government can’t magic them out of thin air. If they could youth unemployment wouldn’t be higher in countries where there is a more activist state line Spain and France.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      13 June 2014 at 7:48 am

                      “Magic” them? What are you blithering about Gosman? If the state builds something, like I dunno, say 10,000 houses per year, that creates work. Not by magic, fuckwit.

            • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1.1.2
              12 June 2014 at 1:23 pm

              Rob – I don’t get it – what exactly is your objection to a Robin Hood tax (financial transaction tax) which attacks the mega-profits that the banking system skims off the economy?

              Is there a reason that you are protecting the big banks who extract billions of dollar a year out of NZ?

              If you really do work at a manufacturing plant – shouldn’t you be backing a tax which is designed to cut back financial speculation using the NZ dollar?

              Finally, I wonder if you have really thought through what you are saying. In many ways I feel that you are arguing not only your own best interests, but against the interests of your children and your employees.

              • Tiger Mountain …
                12 June 2014 at 1:50 pm

                I don’t care Rob if you were best mates with mother Theresa, many kiwis that do not run “manufacturing operations” have considerable family commitments and do much unpaid work for various communities.

                Assuming what other posters do or do not isn’t a great use of anyones time really. However your tone is that of one used to subservience from others, not a good listener or open to new ideas.

                Other posters are looking at the big picture to respond to Micky. People in school or work are way less likely to stick up dairys.

        • Puckish Rogue 8.1.1.2
          12 June 2014 at 12:14 pm

          Didn’t you know? Theres no problem that an added tax can’t fix

          • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.2.1
            12 June 2014 at 1:25 pm

            The taxation system is a good way of driving desired behaviours and responses from players in the economy, as well as being able to telegraph what the government of the day views as most important.

            Why do you have a problem with that?

            Didn’t you know? Theres no problem that an added tax can’t fix

            Why is it that only private business makes a profit? Why do you begrudge government making a profit through taxation as well?

          • Draco T Bastard 8.1.1.2.2
            12 June 2014 at 1:59 pm

            Under National that reads:
            Didn’t you know? Theres no problem that a tax cut can’t fix

            And we actually have proof because before the GFC National was telling us that we needed a tax cut and after the GFC they said we needed a tax cut. The real problem with RWNJs such as yourself is that you believed them.

            And the bit that you really don’t understand (because the psychopaths in National and Act tell you the exact opposite) is that when you do something you have to pay for it. Nothing comes for free.

        • framu 8.1.1.3
          12 June 2014 at 12:19 pm

          no – learn to read

        • millsy 8.1.1.4
          12 June 2014 at 11:26 pm

          Yeah, pretty much.

          The rich really need to pay more tax so more money go into public services that help New Zealanders.

          Like they did back in 1980.

          No one had to worry about getting the money to pay the bills back then.

          Living standards were high, housing and jobs were plentiful, and the publicly owned hydro dams provided us with cheap power.

          And the All Blacks werent behind a paywall.

    • RedLogix 8.2
      12 June 2014 at 10:51 am

      I think all the woes in society today stem back to Richardson’s 1991 budget.

      The neoliberal madness coinciding also with a massive leap in suicide rates for young males in particular. And while murder and suicide are complex matters – at root they are both a form of lethal violence, one directed inwardly the other outwardly.

      • Colonial Viper 8.2.1
        12 June 2014 at 11:25 am

        Full employment policy for those 25 and under. Give them self esteem building the nation and building a future for themselves.

        But we don’t actually care enough about young Kiwis enough to spend this ~$1B p.a. on them, do we.

        • Tiger Mountain 8.2.1.1
          12 June 2014 at 11:46 am

          Nah, there is always a too big to fail corporate needing a handout, or an upper middle class needing a tax cut…

    • shorts 8.3
      12 June 2014 at 11:03 am

      I don’t think we should panic over the ages either – the crime itself though is of concern as it highlights a society breaking down as already mentioned – and this isn’t a West Auckland thing, its a nationwide problem – every populated area has its “trouble spots” or areas of deprivation

      And we shall continue to employ few(er) ambulances at the bottom of the cliff as we do for most of our social ills

    • Ennui 8.4
      12 June 2014 at 12:04 pm

      I recall the Richardson Mother of All Budgets with horror. I was doing OK, and I got more, but lots of people I knew got less. It left me with a sick feeling, sort of unclean.

      Having said that we cannot ignore the prior conditions on large (mainly non pakeha) sectors of our society that pre-existed this Budget. The institutional racism, the existing economic disadvantage etc. Add on top of that the changed economy where we no longer needed factory hands because we no longer had factories (the post industrial landscape would no doubt have occurred without Rogers help).

      • Colonial Viper 8.4.1
        12 June 2014 at 1:27 pm

        (the post industrial landscape would no doubt have occurred without Rogers help).

        If NZ had been thoughtful we could have instituted a 10 year transition programme taking the skills and capabilities of the manufacturers and workers we did have, and bringing them up to modern day requirements.

        Instead of sink or swim.

        • Draco T Bastard 8.4.1.1
          12 June 2014 at 2:12 pm

          These days there’s no sink or swim, there’s just sink – unless you’re a multinational corporation or rich and then you get massive subsidies from those who are sinking.

    • Tracey 8.5
      13 June 2014 at 8:54 am

      Compare the number of murders per year with the number of workplace deaths per year. Then compare how many of each get reported on the television. I heard a guy on nat radio recently stating violent crime is dropping and is a worldwide trend not attributable to any politicians per se..

    • Thea 8.6
      20 June 2014 at 6:35 am

      It’s already been happening in the UK and US for a very long time. Just ask any primary school teacher who is afraid of some pupils in their class. The principals need police to pick up confiscated knives and other weapons daily. Ask the pupil who is afraid and feels the need to protect themselves by carrying their own weapons to school.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 8.6.1
        20 June 2014 at 7:20 am

        😆 but, but, this is New Zealand being discussed on this page!

  9. Oliver's Nanna 9
    12 June 2014 at 10:44 am

    In 1993, a similar murder took place in Kelston – juveniles beating to death a well respected and lovely local shopkeeper. I knew him as well as anyone in the area, and it shocked a community and ruined a family. So, 21 years later, a similar crime in Henderson. The “problem” is not new, the social issues are not new, and we were under a National government at the time, so that’s not new either, is it ….

  10. greywarbler 10
    12 June 2014 at 11:13 am

    If you watched The Wire you would have an idea of the mentality of the youngsters. One youngster committed a murder, it was done effectively and was just a job, attending to the business needed to live in his close society.

    It was fiction of course. But presented a believable scenario for the likely fertile ground and thinking processes that lead to this sort of crime. And sometimes there is the unbelievable response from authority that it was done ‘and all they got was a few dollars’. The same sort of automatic and inappropriate response from officialdom as saying that a random murder was ‘unnecessary’. Implying that some are necessary? What a brutalised unthinking response. We do need to do and think differently and humanely.

  11. Mr Oh Well 11
    12 June 2014 at 11:21 am

    Take note of John Cooper Clarkes Poem: Pity the Plight of Young Fellows

    “Pity the fates of young fellows too long in bed with no sleep
    With their complex romantic attachments all look on their sorrows and weep
    They don’t get a moment’s reflection there’s always a crowd in their eye
    Pity the plight of young fellows regard all their worries and cry

    Their Christian mothers were lazy perhaps leaving it up to the school
    Where the moral perspective is hazy perhaps and the climate oppressively cruel
    Give me one acre of cellos pitched at some distant regret
    Pity the fate of young fellows and their anxious attempts to forget

    Pity the fates of young fellows too long in bed with no sleep
    With their complex romantic attachments all look on their sorrows and weep
    They don’t get a moment’s reflection there’s always a crowd in their eye
    Pity the plight of young fellows regard all their worries and cry”

    With all utmost respect, I suspect the mothers referred to this poem are working on minimum wage, 12 hour days, 6 days a week in a system that requires cheap labour.

    This poem appeared in the movie Ill Manors

    Ill Manors is a multi-character story,[1] set over the course of seven days, a scenario where everyone is fighting for respect.[2] The film focuses on eight core characters,[3] and their circles of violence, as they struggle to survive on the streets. Each story weaves into one another, painting an ultra-realistic gritty picture of the world which is on the brink of self-destruction. Each story is also represented by a different rap song performed by Plan B.[4]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ill_Manors

  12. Arandar 12
    12 June 2014 at 11:22 am

    There was also the 2002 murder of Lester Pigott in Waitara committed by three young girls aged about 14 if I recall. The shock was greater for it having been girls behaving in such a callous and brutal way.

    The circumstances are similar though; young poor (yes, and brown) kids, alienated from school, community, probably family.

    I can’t for the life of me see how increasing penalties and reducing preventions can ever help turn this situation around.

    • Ennui 12.1
      12 June 2014 at 11:57 am

      Yes, penalties happen after the crime. I can see no evidence that penalties prevent the crime.

  13. Bill 13
    12 June 2014 at 11:47 am

    Said this previously, but – as a society we reap what we sow, and inevitably some of us get reaped by what has been sown.

    But sure, vilify beggars and sign post stricter behavioural controls (a la Twyford). Y’know, throw some cops, education and whatever other social democratic measures you want at it (control ’em with carrots and sticks boys!) and than sit back as 5/8ths of fuck all changes.

    • adam 13.1
      12 June 2014 at 9:24 pm

      Twity Twyford and the hard right of labour. Working class haters the bloody lot of them. I could have puked this morning when that neo-con splurged his hateful rant to the media. I thought he was going to ask to hang them next – what a penny dreadful opera he spins, what a bollocks load of middle class angsts. Twyford, the guy putting the con back into conservatism.

  14. fisiani 14
    12 June 2014 at 12:01 pm

    Shroud waving crap as usual. Politics does not make someone kill. Politics does not make someone carry a knife. Trying to blame the John Key led most successful ever government for deaths and some comments stooping to use the word Natzis is Godwin shroud waving. Shame on you. I thought you were better than that.

    “I apologise in advance for saying that there is a political element to these dreadful events.”

    So you should.

    • Enough is Enough 14.1
      12 June 2014 at 12:07 pm

      Fisiani

      We have been repeating for 6 years what the consequences of John Key’s war on the poor would be. It may appear to be politicising but it is also a bit of “we told you so”.

      You cannot continually beat up the most vulnerable in society and expect their off spring to be brought up as we would expect. It just does not work like that.

      Key should have a long hard look at himself in the mirror tonight.

      This is John Key’s brighter future.

      The war on the poor has been a failure.

      • Gosman 14.1.1
        13 June 2014 at 10:07 am

        Except violent crime has been falling over the last 5 years which is the opposite of what you state should be happening.

        • Matthew Hooton 14.1.1.1
          13 June 2014 at 10:11 am

          Just as it has in the US

        • minarch 14.1.1.2
          13 June 2014 at 10:14 am

          I still believe this is partly caused by a rising lack of respect/confidence in the police leading to a drop in REPORTED crime, I know plenty of people (myself included ) who dont bother calling the police because the wont/cant do anything to help and quite often just make the problem worse

          • Gosman 14.1.1.2.1
            13 June 2014 at 10:26 am

            You can believe anything you like. It doesn’t make it true. But let us pretend you are correct. Any half decent opposition would be banging on about law and order and increasing police numbers etc and voters would likely then flock to them as they had lost respect/confidence in them protecting them. Law and order would become a big election issue. For some reason it isn’t registering. Why do you think that is?

            • minarch 14.1.1.2.1.1
              13 June 2014 at 10:38 am

              I speak from mine, my family and my friends many bad encounters with the Blue-Meanies in my neighborhood

              I think for a lot of people mistrust/disgust in the police is a taboo topic

              They need to believe the police can protect them as they have been coerced into handing over responsibility for their safety and well being to the state ,

              but they cant and wont & IMO your a fool if you rely on them to do so

              • Gosman …
                13 June 2014 at 10:43 am

                You are not addressing the issue of why Law and Order is not featuring heavily in any polling data and why the opposition parties are not making more of a deal about it.

                • minarch …
                  13 June 2014 at 10:57 am

                  more people are more concerned about feeding their families and keeping the power/gas on.

                  Although crime is a pressing issue, these would be more acutely felt by a larger section of pollsters

                  Im personally more worried about my children’s future and the plans my family are making to emigrate to ensure they can have a decent happy one , than I am about the tagging on my fence

                  how about you gas-man ?

        • One Anonymous Bloke 14.1.1.3
          13 June 2014 at 10:29 am

          It’s almost as though Gosman isn’t here to discuss things or engage, but simply likes to tr*ll false assertions. He cannot make this claim because, as he has been informed, crime reporting methods were changed at the insistence of Judith Collins.

          The gutter ethics represented by the Minister for Oravida are mirrored here, by Gosman’s deceitful shilling. This is what the right stands for: nothing.

          • Gosman 14.1.1.3.1
            13 June 2014 at 10:55 am

            Please provide the evidence that crime reporting has significantly altered over the past 6 years
            as a direct result of interference from Judith Collins.

            Where also are the opposition press releases about this?

  15. Sigmund 15
    12 June 2014 at 12:02 pm

    So Farrar has pointed out the substantially higher violent crime rate nationwide and in West Auckland specifically in the last years of the Clark Government. How do we explain that away? Was Clark just s negligent,or moreso?

  16. fisiani 16
    12 June 2014 at 12:16 pm

    There has been no “war on the poor” except in your fevered mind. That crass and delusional statement sums of the poverty of thought of the Left the “we” as you call them. The poor are clearly far better off now than 6 years ago. Thousands are no longer languishing on benefits. Education and immunisation rates are higher. State houses that Labour rented like slum landlords have all been insulated and are now warm. National’s 90 day right to prove yourself has proven to be a boon to the poor. How many more examples do you need?

    • framu 16.1
      12 June 2014 at 12:22 pm

      examples that are actually real would be a good start

      as usual your all bullshit and fantasy

      • dimebag russell 16.1.1
        12 June 2014 at 12:30 pm

        yep. its deemocracy National Party style. if we say so then it is true.

    • Enough is Enough 16.2
      12 June 2014 at 12:27 pm

      Tell that to the family of the slain dairy owner.

      #bloodonhands

      • fisiani 16.2.1
        12 June 2014 at 1:34 pm

        That’s a truly appalling thing to say. You should be ashamed. I hope no other posters here are as bitter and twisted as that. Why should I be the only one to take you to task?
        Do you understand tino rangatirotanga?
        Personal control over your destiny.
        National is day by day empowering people to have tino rangatirotanga.
        https://www.national.org.nz/news/news/media-releases/detail/2014/05/15/supporting-families-and-returning-to-surplus

        • North 16.2.1.1
          12 June 2014 at 6:22 pm

          Are you mad FizzyAnus ? You link to a National Party press release as proof of anything ?

          The gall of resort by a pathetic replicant of Mr Higher ShonKey Standards – ineptly as it happens – to the words ” tino rangatirotanga” ? The letter ‘o’ – rangatiratanga ???

          Offensive, sociopathic osshole is writ large.

        • Once was Tim 16.2.1.2
          12 June 2014 at 6:45 pm

          I always thought there was something very fishy about you fizzi.

          “Do you understand tino rangatirotanga?
          Personal control over your destiny”

          You invoke such references in corrupted context (hoping for a politically correct responses or that you can’t be challenged).
          I.E. in this case “Personal control over your destiny” in a very individualistic context …..
          Whereas that tino rangatirotanga has always existed in the context of welfare of the community (or collective).
          It’s a great excuse though for Uncle Tom Cobblys and Natzis alike. 10 out of 10.
          Good try (except it isn’t really washing that well these days).
          I I I I I me me me me me me

          P.S. I’ve just broken my own rule (by engaging with you. Going through your past contributions, most challenges to your crap are never received in a constructive way and its like pushing shit uphill. I don;t believe in pushing shit uphill so don;t be surprised if you don’t get any further response.

    • minarch 16.3
      12 June 2014 at 1:13 pm

      maybe not in your neighborhood

      come to mine and try calling the police for help, then try calling them again, and again, and again until they suggest you “go outside and check yourself” (this actually happened to me and my family )

      explain why there are foot patrols around newmarket (protecting the yoga students and coffee house patrons from having there escapes & landrovers broken into i guess ) and none in Henderson ?

      ANTI-FLAG

      “They Don’t Protect You”

      the rich control the world’s economic state creating poverty for their own sake
      poverty breeds crime, that threatens you so you support the police in what ever they do
      you give up your rights don’t you know the truth?
      it makes no difference they.. don’t protect you! don’t protect you! don’t protect you! don’t protect you! don’t protect you! and that’s the truth!
      this police state only benefits the rich because the cops give them power to keep us all quiet with police disguised as the guardians of the masses
      we’ll never suspect their role is to save the rich bastards!
      you’re all complacent you’re totally fooled you bought the system’s lies
      but they.. don’t protect you! don’t protect you! don’t protect you! don’t protect you! don’t protect you!
      you’ve been taught to eat the “complacency brand” fed to you by your rich slave masters hand
      you don’t need to stand against this covert class war because you’re brainwashed in the laws some old rich bastard’s wrote!

      and the police would kill you if they could that’s their job, no they.. don’t protect you! don’t protect you! don’t protect you! don’t protect you! don’t protect you!

      • just saying 16.3.1
        12 June 2014 at 2:05 pm

        Here’s a story. It’s from a few years ago so the situation in undoubtedly much worse now.

        South Auckland. A peeping Tom is repeatedly found perving into bedroom windows all through the neighbourhood. Many, many phone calls to the police. There was a serial sexual assailant assaulting women and girls in the area. It is likely that this person had anything to do with the assaults, but people in the neighbourhood were justifiably afraid. The police never came. Ever.

        At the same time, my partner and I were groundspeople for very wealthy couple in Remuera. Every Sunday, the lady of the house set off her burglar alarm and with her watch recorded the time the police took to arrive. If it was more than a couple of minutes she ticked the officers off severely. The police were very apologetic despite knowing that she wasted police time in this manner every weekend.

        Two worlds.

        • minarch 16.3.1.1
          12 June 2014 at 2:11 pm

          ” The police were very apologetic despite knowing that she wasted police time in this manner every weekend.”

          well you dont bite the hand that feeds do you

        • Melb 16.3.1.2
          12 June 2014 at 2:45 pm

          thathappend.jpg

      • felix 16.3.2
        12 June 2014 at 6:43 pm

        “explain why there are foot patrols around newmarket (protecting the yoga students and coffee house patrons from having there escapes & landrovers broken into i guess ) and none in Henderson ?”

        fisiani doesn’t understand what you mean. In his experience there are dps officers everywhere.

        • framu 16.3.2.1
          13 June 2014 at 7:59 am

          “In his experience there are dps officers everywhere.”

          wait… what… fisi is john key? 🙂

  17. North 17
    12 June 2014 at 12:27 pm

    Appallingly intellectually limited, artless, often amoral sections of the media are part of the problem.

    They’re happy to get all hot and erect when these tragedies occur but do they have any concern to go deeper and really call to account the powerful over the societal abuse of children ? Societal abuse which impacts well into ‘adulthoods’ which are attained only formally and only by effluxion of time. The powerful whom for their own political safety/advancement effectively deny the cancer of child poverty and dog-whistle up a contemptible underclass. While professing limitless caring. Influential sections of the media seem more concerned to focus on how well the powerful play the political game.

    One of the most disgusting examples of rushing to avoid seminal issues and point up an underclass is that of Bailey Junior Kurariki.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey_Junior_Kurariki

    Convicted of manslaughter at 12 – for being a lookout in the killing of poor Michael Choy in circumstances where all Kurariki thought was going to happen was robbing for pizza delivery money. Kurariki never struck a blow.

    When he met trouble with the law following his release years later, sections of the media sought to paint him as public enemy number one – salaciously reporting profane and suggestive language and alleged indecent assault against a couple of young female ‘newshounds’ (allegedly at the same time ?). ‘Newshounds’ strangely ‘fascinated’ by this guy.

    He’d never had a properly formative childhood for a start. Any real prospect of remedying that was obliterated by confining him in various prisons of sorts from the age of 12. Then when there was something excitingly ‘scandalous’ to bay about sections of the media went for it.

    What they cared not to include in their scandalised reporting was news of the virtually contemporaneous release from prison of one of those somewhat older than Kurariki who’d actually rained death blows on poor Michael Choy. And been convicted of murder for it.

    I recall at the time feeling a gripping disgust to the point where I wanted to shake those contemptible tragedy loving hyenas. Gripping disgust much as I feel, without imagined physical response note, for the tragically ignorant FizzyAnus above.

  18. Matthew Hooton 18
    12 June 2014 at 1:50 pm

    There are over 200,000 people who live in West Auckland/Waitakere. Four murderers don’t tell us anything about the other 199,996+ people who live there, any more that the Bassett Road machine gun murders of 1963 tell you anything about the street I lived in as a teenager (many years later), or the Crewe murders tell you anything about the people of the Waikato.

    Attributing the four murders to the 1991 Budget – which Millsy tell us has caused ALL our social woes – or to the anti-smacking law or to anything in particular is wrong (both morally and as a matter of logic).

    It is also insulting to the people of West Auckland/Waitakere to say that because there were four murderers in their midst, some generalisation about them and their community can be made.

    And if anyone wants to play that game, then surely the more relevant information is that crime in that region has fallen 13.3% – see http://www.police.govt.nz/news/release/waitemata-district-crime-stats

    Looking at murder in the region, there were 7 in 2011, 1 in 2012 and 6 in 2013 – see http://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/publications/crime-stats-waitemata-20131231.pdf

    And rape was up and robbery was down in 2013 compared with 2012. I think it is wrong to extrapolate that to the whole community as indicating anything about them, one way or the other.

    • thecard 18.1
      12 June 2014 at 2:08 pm

      Bloody hell you know things are fucked up when hooten has the most sensible comment in the thread

    • minarch 18.2
      12 June 2014 at 2:25 pm

      what about all the crimes unreported because of lack of respect or confidence in the police

      I personally no longer even bother calling the police, because they wont do f**k all to solve the problem. The average police officer is not a legal expert; he probably knows his protocol, but very little about the actual laws. This means his enforcement involves a great deal of bluffing, improvisation, and dishonesty. Police lie on a regular basis, in fact their trained to do so

      “I just got a report of someone of your description committing a crime around here. Want to show me some ID,empty out your pockets?”

      Of course some police officers have good intentions, but insofar as they obey orders rather than their consciences, they cannot be trusted

    • mickysavage 18.3
      12 June 2014 at 7:28 pm

      I have not said that there is a specific link between a particular Government policy and these events. I have suggested that poverty, lack of police resource, misuse of educative resources and low wages and bad working conditions all contribute to a society where this sort of event is more likely to occur. And if you work on improving these areas then such events will be less likely.

      • Matthew Hooton 18.3.1
        13 June 2014 at 10:03 am

        But look at the actual numbers: http://www.teara.govt.nz/files/26484-data.txt

        There has been a big increase in murder numbers over the years, but I don’t see any particular pattern (except, in favour of your hypothesis) it could be argued that murder jumped massively in 1992, after the benefit cuts of December 1990 and the Mother of All Budgets in 1991 – but it would be another big step to prove causation. You could just as well say that there was a big jump in murders in 2006 following the introduction of Working for Families and interest-free student loans. And then you’d have to explain why murder rates were so low in 1993, 1995 and 2007.

        This is a very unpleasant game. I mean, the data “shows”:
        * The Kirk government’s policies “caused” murder to increase by 18%, from 17 to 20
        * The election of Muldoon in 1975 “caused” an immediate doubling of the murder rate to 40, and that is how he left NZ
        * The Lange government “caused” murder to increase 50%
        * The Bolger/Shipley government “caused” murder rates to fall 25%, from 67 to 50
        * The Clark government’s policies “caused” an 18% increase in murders, from 50 to 59
        You see how stupid this is?

        • One Anonymous Bloke 18.3.1.1
          13 June 2014 at 10:17 am

          No particular pattern apart from the big increase, that is.

          It’s okay, Matthew, if someone who lies for money can’t make head nor tale of information, because we have credible people to do that for us.

        • weka 18.3.1.2
          13 June 2014 at 12:19 pm

          “You see how stupid this is?”

          What’s stupid is you posting a lnk to a list of increasing numbers of murders by year, over 60 years, with no reference to the increase in population.

          You then cherry pick various govts, as if murderers and other criminals pay attention to when elections are.

          You have also failed to take into account the different kinds of violence.

          The relationship between social and economic policy, and violence, doesn’t change over night or from one year to the next. I would have thought this so self evident that it didn’t warrant spelling out, but apparently not.

    • karol 18.4
      12 June 2014 at 9:01 pm

      Been out west lately, Matthew? What do you know about the lives of any of the 2000,00+ people who live in West Auckland?

    • Mary 18.5
      12 June 2014 at 9:40 pm

      So what’s your explanation for the explosion in the number of murders in New Zealand – since when news of Jennifer Beard or Mona Blades was on the front page for weeks because murder was such a rare occurrence back then? Your analysis is glaringly lopsided.

    • millsy 18.6
      12 June 2014 at 10:36 pm

      On probably Tuesday morning I will provide some figures on crime rates before 1991.

      I never said that RR’s budget was the cause of that murder, I was just saying that murders by young people are few and far between, and we should be wary about the likes of the SS Trust, Family First, Colin Craig and the likes for calling for social repression.

    • RedLogix 18.7
      12 June 2014 at 10:42 pm

      Hooton is playing his usual dishonest game of misdirection by drawing some very flaky equivalences.

      For a start the Bassett Rd murders were committed by a couple of already hardened adult crims acting out execution style killings in the context of the shady underworld of Auckland.

      Almost nothing in common with a 13yr old boy killing an innocent shopkeeper going about his normal business at 7am in the morning.

      When Mathew and I were 13yr old boys – the idea of carrying a knife, much less openly robbing a dairy and killing the owner in the course of it – never occurred to us. Such a crime was a notion that was entirely outside of our world. A generation later it’s now a common place risk.

      Nowadays as an adult I’m very aware that any youth may well be carrying a knife – and I only have to be in the wrong place at the wrong time – to finish up yet another tragic headline.

      No Mr Hooton – things have changed and your statistics evade that fact altogether.

      • Matthew Hooton 18.7.1
        13 June 2014 at 10:51 am

        My gut instinct is to agree with you on the practice of carrying knives etc. I don’t remember anyone carrying weapons as a teenager but now I am told it is quite common. Then again, I lived in a fairly quiet part of Auckland, and I also wonder if carrying weapons was more prevalent among teenagers in earlier times in NZ history, when the murder rate was apparently lower. Not sure if this has ever been studied.

  19. JanM 19
    12 June 2014 at 2:20 pm

    Forget which political party is at fault here – there may be more blood on some hands than others, but you’d have to listen to Hone Harawera to hear someone who really gets it. This is a quote from him in the house talking to the Feed the Kids Bill:
    “Nelson Mandela once said that “there can be no keener revelation of a society’s soul than the way in which it treats its children” and if I could add a comment, it would be “and blaming those too vulnerable to care for themselves and their children, speaks more about our selfishness than it does about the hopelessness of poverty.”
    Every society, no matter what system it lives by has people who, for a variety of reasons, are not coping without extra help and the way we are collectively turning our backs on the current situation shows our ‘soul’ is in a dire state at the moment, is it not?
    Kia kaha, Hone

    • Mary 19.1
      12 June 2014 at 10:14 pm

      You’ve just described what the foundation for a caring society should look like – something we haven’t had for a long time and which we’re moving further away from by the second.

  20. Tanz 20
    12 June 2014 at 4:23 pm

    How about going back to the basic donservative values that worked. Fifty years ago and less, murder in NZ was rare and shocking. So, therefore, the old values did work. Murder is still sthocking, but it is not rare. The old values worked, the new values are causing chaos.

  21. Tanz 21
    12 June 2014 at 4:46 pm

    Still, it was rare then, and we didn’t have mere children killing dairy owners with a knife.
    There have been four violent murders/attacks in West Auckland recently, and a few on the Shorte too. It just doesn’t compare. Back in the old days, you could leave your doors unlocked.

    • JanM 21.1
      12 June 2014 at 5:53 pm

      It’s true that murders have increased way more than the population. I got this from Te Ara:
      “Numbers of murders have increased dramatically in New Zealand. In the 1950s a total of 95 people were murdered – an annual average of 9.5. In the 1970s the total number of murders rose to 281 – almost three times as many as in the 1950s. In the 1980s and 1990s there were over 500 murders per decade. While the total number of murders dropped slightly in the first decade of the 21st century, an average of 54.6 people were murdered each year. New Zealand’s population grew from 1.9 million in 1950 to 4.36 million in 2009, but this does not explain why murders increased fivefold.”
      However, the war had only been over a very short time then and attitudes were probably very different. Well, it felt like that to me at the time. I struggle to explain it to my own satisfaction but I think the reasons are quite complex – it was pre-drugs on the scale they are available now, for instance.
      And for reasons which any good historian/sociologist could probably tell us, people did seem to be more optimistic about their futures despite war and poverty.

  22. minarch 22
    12 June 2014 at 4:52 pm

    or how about the 60,s

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bassett_Road_machine_gun_murders

    ah golden times…..

    NZ has a violent culture, always has and always will

  23. millsy 23
    12 June 2014 at 5:08 pm

    Kicking gays, shaming single mothers, beating kids those sorts of values Tanz? The kind of of values that are practised every day in Muslim countries?

  24. karol 24
    12 June 2014 at 6:25 pm

    Good post, micky.

    I go to Henderson regularly. There are a lot of young people hanging out in the main street and around the entrance to the mall. Some people beg there regularly and ask me for money. I don’t feel intimidated by any of them. I quite like some of the sense of community around the area.

    However, there are some people around and about who are high, and hence their behaviour would be unpredictable.

    That shop in Henderson that was selling synthetic highs, when they were legal, is still open. I’m not quite sure what it is selling.

    Most young people around Henderson are polite and friendly, It is a relatively low income area. That is the real crime.

    • mickysavage 24.2
      13 June 2014 at 8:12 pm

      Thanks Karol.

      I have spent a lot of my last 25 years there. The place is great and the people wonderful but the effects of poverty are distressing and the repercussions are the sort of thing that we have seen recently. If only we looked after each other a bit better this sort of event I am sure would happen less regularly.

      • karol 24.2.1
        13 June 2014 at 8:59 pm

        Henderson has started to look run down since the advent of the “supercity”, and the demise of Waitakere City Council. I don’t know if it’s about an increase in poverty, or that it has become more exposed, or that the poverty has shifted about a bit. New Lynn, in contrast, while still having a diverse array of people, some begging, etc, seems more vibrant and upbeat.

  25. Ne 25
    12 June 2014 at 6:38 pm

    Two of the murders were one incident – due to a domestic dispute (father killed wife and daughter), people were possibly immigrants (South Asia family names).

    After reading other comments on causes, why dont we put all at risk teenage males in the Army for 15 years, where they can be taught order, work skills, discipline and come out as responsible young men with some trade skill. Bad parents create young criminals, not society or politicians.

    • karol 25.1
      12 June 2014 at 8:08 pm

      That reminds me… whatever happened to the Nats boot camps? – widely touted early on in Key’s stint as PM. Haven’t heard much about them since.

      They’ve clearly been a great success for wayward young men!

      • mickysavage 25.1.1
        13 June 2014 at 8:14 pm

        They are not working. And I know a couple of kids who went on them.

        Things are great for a while when they are at the camp and there is supervision and guidance. But then they come home to their poverty stricken neighbourhoods and then things start to unwind and then …

    • millsy 25.2
      12 June 2014 at 10:39 pm

      So are you willing to pay higher taxes to have young people in the army for that very long period of time?

      And you do realise that in the USA and UK at least, those who have been in the services are dispoprtionately represented in homelessness and crime statistics.

      • weka 25.2.1
        13 June 2014 at 12:23 pm

        +1. We could double up the PTSD for those kids that have already had a hard time. I’m sure that will work out well.

  26. Charlieboy 26
    12 June 2014 at 8:57 pm

    I agree with Karol. During the last school holidays my wife and I bought a train pass and took our six grandchildren for a ride on the auckland trains.The new one was fun and new, but the train out to Henderson and Ranui was depressing.Frankly it was dangerous.Many teenagers hanging out and throwing their weight around. Older teenagers openly smoking dope and the last days of legal highs.On the way home, so many heavy characters I couldn’t wait to get back to the Newmarket station.
    There was a bad feeling in that hinterland,and bad things are happening there.It will get worse, and this government or the next will have to do something about it.

    • karol 26.1
      12 June 2014 at 9:35 pm

      Actually, I don’t think we see things the same. I don’t feel like the West (Henderson/Ranui) is a depressing place to be and I don’t feel a need to leave it as soon as. I don’t feel it is a dangerous place to be.

      Yes, bad things are happening to good people – like having to struggle to live on low incomes, with limited opportunities.

      • Kiwiri 26.1.1
        13 June 2014 at 10:41 am

        “bad things are happening to good people – having to struggle to live on low incomes, with limited opportunities”

        Indeed.

        I have seen and experienced through very close friends and relatives that it does not take much for insecurity of income and the grinding lack of opportunities to tip people over to the other side – mentally, financially, physically and in terms of personal, family and social relationships.

    • millsy 26.2
      12 June 2014 at 10:40 pm

      And what would your solution be Charles? Waterboard them all.

      I would probably tell you to eff off to if you thought that I should be tortured.

    • minarch 26.3
      13 June 2014 at 9:07 am

      that sounds more like class-anxiety to me

  27. Charlieboy 27
    13 June 2014 at 12:30 am

    I was thinking jobs,better schooling,better town planning,improved social services, a government that cared instead one that turns up at McGeehan Close to get elected then ignores it. I am not torturing this country,National is.

    • bad12 27.1
      13 June 2014 at 11:02 am

      Well not quite Charlieboy, as far as the McGeehan Closes go your comment should read, turned up to get elected while eyeing up the real estate with a view to getting their hands on the bits with the best views…

  28. framu 28
    13 June 2014 at 8:03 am

    while not a cause in and of itself – could the sudden removal of those shitty synthetic ‘cannabis’ smokables be involved here?

    hate the bloody stuff myself so i wouldnt know first hand – but going by most accounts its a reall crappy thing to come off

    • mickysavage 28.1
      13 June 2014 at 8:18 pm

      It is possible frame. The stuff had similarities to cannabis but also made people violent. Makes you think that the naturally occurring substance was more preferable …

  29. Philj 29
    13 June 2014 at 8:06 am

    xox
    Rocket Science 101
    Government implements policies for greater wealth for 1% and poverty for an increasing number of Kiwis and you will get greater social disintegration. Next comes the call for more police, tougher sentencing and more jails. Is this Nationals ‘Brighter Future’?Or the light at the end of the tunnel?

  30. Mr Oh Well 30
    13 June 2014 at 11:33 am

    Some good comments kicking around (some fair points from Mathew Hooten as well)

    A couple of points to consider (just my opinion,. sorry appalling grammar and spelling)

    A. Crime is on the decrease worldwide (and maybe due to introduction of surveillance and social ‘control’ programs and increasing wealth) aka its not The National party doing it (they are along for the ride to).

    B. Regardless of whether or not crime is up or down, which demographic suffers the most in this, its the poor, worldwide, every-time. This is not good enough, why? This for me is the FUNDAMENTAL question.

    Also, how do you define violence (my definition includes an obscure type, its called low pay, long hours, little time with your children, it benefits a few wealthy people and keeps the proletariat in their place). Like, background ration, this can perpetuate a violence that just sits below the statisticians definition of crime.

    So when we blow money on a Stadiums/, Reduce taxes to rich, sell assets, bail out investment companies, fund particular demographics who are already privileged, ask yourself this, is it money well spent. In other words, the pace of change and money inputted to help improve our society is appallingly slow (i.e. investment in education, housing, good meaningful employment etc ). How many people are going to die, be hurt in the meantime due to this slow pace of change that is in effect driven by our wonderful market economy.

    C. Stephen Pinker claims in his book The Angels of Our Nature, that violence worldwide is on the decrease. All well and good, but in my humble opinion, I still see this violence conducted in the workplace, it just changes form to subtle manipulation (you should see how workers in Govt are ripping each other apart over promotions etc) and/or workers rights laws downgraded (working under stricter conditions). Notice how white collar crime, is almost not a crime anymore? See the light sentences dished out to people that have ripped off hundreds of millions from people (this happens in NZ to).

    The Guardian review of said of his book:

    Steven Pinker’s book is a comfort blanket for the smug. The factual errors in The Better Angels of Our Nature destroy Pinker’s thesis, rendering it no more than a bedtime story. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/nov/08/steven-pinker-better-angels-of-our-nature

    So if you read the below, again, ask yourself this, with the technology, knowledge of psychology, sociology, abundant systems and processes to improve eduction and housing cheaply and efficiently, why the hell is it taking sooooooo looooooooooooooongggggggggg to improve our society (yeah I know generational, thats only a part of it…. spending money as a society on wants, not needs perhaps?). Someone is benefiting…. you know who they are.

    So when you read the article by Pinker and ones like

    Where have all the burglars gone?

    http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21582041-rich-world-seeing-less-and-less-crime-even-face-high-unemployment-and-economic

    “But the sheer scale of the drop—and its broad persistence in the face of the deepest economic depression in a century—make a new crime wave seem unlikely. Policing is still improving; heroin and crack-cocaine consumption continue to fall; and no one is likely to reintroduce lead into petrol. The period of rising crime from the 1950s through to the 1980s looks increasingly like an historical anomaly.”

    I would say, although the burglars are going to ground and there are less of them, they are wearing white collars and actually stealing a hell of a lot more money and exacting violence in morphed (below the radar) forms.

    Economic violence at a distance, that’s the new form.

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