A flag that suits Key’s NZ

95 comments on “A flag that suits Key’s NZ ”

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1. Colonial Viper 1

   3 September 2015 at 2:28 pm

   This is astonishing; amazing art at its most meaningful.
2. ianmac 2

   3 September 2015 at 2:47 pm

   Wow! That is very clever and challenging art Lyndon.
3. Olwyn 3

   3 September 2015 at 3:02 pm

   An incredibly poignant piece of art – I hope Key gets to see it.
   • Jenny Kirk 3.1

     3 September 2015 at 4:12 pm

     + 100% but Key is too shielded to see anything like this.
   • Draco T Bastard 3.2

     3 September 2015 at 4:51 pm

     About the best that you’d get from Key when shown that would be a sneer and then he’d dismiss it.
     • Olwyn 3.2.1

       3 September 2015 at 5:06 pm

       @Jenny & Draco: sadly, you are both probably right. From his perspective “courage” is being unflinching when you are hurting someone, not helping them.
     • cogito 3.2.2

       3 September 2015 at 9:03 pm

       Amazing how one of those poor people looks remarkably like Ruth Lazar….
4. Bill 4

   3 September 2015 at 3:27 pm

   Tear down the fucking fences.

   Bryndis Bjorgvinsdottir protested against her own government’s decision to accept just 50 Syrian refugees. In just 24 hours, 10,000 Icelanders – 3 per cent of the population – took to Facebook to offer space in their homes and urged their government to accept more refugees immediately.

   http://www.thenational.scot/comment/lesley-riddoch-image-of-despair-demands-our-action.7122
   • aerobubble 4.1

     4 September 2015 at 1:01 pm

     Iceland limit of 50 should be seen as a warning, these are after all desert people. Iceland wouldbe wiser to offer to take refugees from a colder climate if others who would have taken them give them to syrians.
5. greywarshark 5

   3 September 2015 at 4:32 pm

   It’s an old farm fence looking over a barren landscape with some weeds near it.
   Then it still is, look again and there is a different meaning. Subtle and expressive.
6. mac1 6

   3 September 2015 at 4:57 pm

   That flag resonates wonderfully.

   I can see in it the agony of the Spartacites crucified along the road to Rome, the barbed wire of war and concentration camps, the age old desperation of refugees, the displaced, and the dispossessed, the agony of the women and children at the mercy of their men’s folly.

   A black and white picture of humanity’s inhumanity.
   • Heather Grimwood 6.1

     3 September 2015 at 7:06 pm

     Wonderfully expressed Mac 1…….the compassionate grief of many.
   • Heather Grimwood 6.2

     3 September 2015 at 7:10 pm

     Wonderfully expressed Mac1……the compassionate grief of many and so cleverly shown in Lyndon Hood’s illustrated comment.
7. In Vino 7

   3 September 2015 at 5:18 pm

   +1 Almost another Guernica.
   Brilliant satire of the pat cacklemush we are getting about those “inspirational” new flag designs..
8. Angela 8

   3 September 2015 at 5:22 pm

   Das ist appropriate for den Hungarian / Austrian border or den USA-Mexico.

   But NZ neiner haven landen borders so Ich neino getten den flaggen idea bitter.
   • locus 8.1

     4 September 2015 at 6:50 am

     Angela,

     that is incredibly unimaginative…. and probably offensive
9. James 9

   3 September 2015 at 7:15 pm

   Whilst I dont agree with the sentiment – Thats a bloody impressive bit of art.
10. Matthew Whitehead 10

    3 September 2015 at 8:05 pm

    Good art, I think it’s a bit childish though to channel your resentment to the government through the flag change referendum, especially when it’s an issue that’s long had the support of people on the left, at least until National took it up.
    • cogito 10.1

      3 September 2015 at 8:36 pm

      A flag change at the right time, for the right reasons, carried out in a genuinely impartial way, over time etc is one thing. Key’s ego-driven RWC-timed cynical manipulation is quite another.
    • greywarshark 10.2

      3 September 2015 at 9:39 pm

      Matthew W and Wayne
      Both remonstrating with the dissatisfaction and discontent about the flag and we shouldn’t ‘channel your resentment to the government through the flag referendum’.
      1 That’s what a referendum is for – to get a steer from the country.
      2 We are supposed to be a democracy, not a bunch of curtseying milkmaids.
      3 If it is our democratic wish that –
      a) We don’t want a flag change
      b) We don’t want a flag change now
      c) That we think that going through with this flag farce is an insult to citizens costing money that isn’t available for decent housing and training and child care and fruit in school and grants to ease money problems etc etc
      d) That the country should have had an opportunity to have a say from the very first and been able to vote on line or by post for the final design, the present approach is patronising and unacceptable
      e) We are disenchanted with the way that the country is being run and choosing a flag now is like being given the wooden spoon as a sop when you’ve lost.
      The question is what have we got to celebrate – a depreciating economy that is being run like a mature business being kept going while the machine can run and produce – then be scrapped. We feel close to being scrapped. A new flag is like a taunt by National, like it or lump it suckers.
      f) Since Key was elected, we have come to know him so well, and there isn’t much to admire. It’s his flag, not ours. We don’t want a bar of it.
      If it is our democratic wish to reject part, all of it, mention of it, expenditure on it, then as we still are clinging on to a form of democracy, we will exercise it whether people pat us on the head and say we are not being polite, pepper spray us and say we are not being servile, or go to more extreme measures. And always it is important to remember that it is symbolic only. The real country is what matters. and the people and animals in it. The flag is a design printed on some material. It’s not a world changing matter in NZ. But a deteriorating world is what we actually are concerned about in our democratic way.

      We will get a new flag to celebrate having achieved something good for our future. Not for having built expensive monuments to some of the past war dead, and spending on other big vanity projects to serve those who already have.
      • Matthew Whitehead 10.2.1

        4 September 2015 at 4:15 am

        A referendum is to get a view from the public on a particular issue. It’s not supposed to be a partisan thing, and it’s not supposed to be influenced by our emotions on related issues.

        If people aren’t inspired by these choices, (fair) don’t want a flag change now, (also fair) or don’t want change at all, those are the reasons to vote no in the second referendum. The money is wasted if and only if people don’t take the referendum seriously. It is an incredibly small amount of money in government terms, anyway, and this referendum is actually in the top three in terms of “most serious things New Zealand has had a referendum on,” along with retaining MMP and whether we should privatise state assets.

        I agree National’s motives for doing the referendum could very well be cynical. That is completely unrelated to whether we should change the flag. We are adults enough to concentrate on important issues while still talking about flag designs.

        Saying we should vote on change yes-or-no without knowing the alternative is silly. You don’t know what you’re voting for or against without a specific flag, and giving you the chance to pick the favourite alternative first is how you determine what to place against the current flag. Labour’s Charles Chauvel outlined a very similar process in his own member’s bill on this issue during the Clark government.

        Key’s preferred alternative is Kyle Lockwood’s red, white, and blue flag. If you don’t want his flag, I strongly suggest you vote for one of the other three. Engaging in this process gives no credibility to John Key whatsoever- the idea to change predates him by decades, and all he’s done is appoint a panel without any designers or flag experts on it to try to screw things up.

        Keep in mind also, that if you don’t vote in the first referendum, or deliberately perform a no-vote, and we end up changing the flag, you will have had no say in the final design, and we may not end up with your preferred alternative. Even people who don’t want to change should vote in the first referendum, so that if we DO change, we get a flag they are still OK with. The only reason not to vote in either referendum is if you genuinely do not care about changing the flag.

        I agree this is not the correct time for the referendum on a flag, but we’re having it anyway, so if you actually care about this, you should engage with the process, and if you don’t, you shouldn’t pretend it’s due to John Key, you should be honest about the designs being poor, you wanting the referendum later, or simply being opposed. I absolutely believe every voter is capable of making this decision without being influenced by which government started the process, especially seeing the Left generally do a lot better on that front than the Right do.
        • locus 10.2.1.1

          4 September 2015 at 7:17 am

          It is an incredibly small amount of money in government terms, anyway,

          $100,000 would more than amply look after the needs of a refugee family of four people for a year while they got onto their feet – people who would bring skills and gratitude to our country – and who would more than return that amount in income tax in a few years

          $26 million for the flag (not including all of the post referendum costs) would enable $100,000 to be spent on 260 families (1,040 individuals),

          As this gritty and intelligent artwork indicates, NZ is being perceived as a country unwilling to increase its its pitifully small intake of refugees

          It also brilliantly and sparsely captures the mood of a large proportion of the NZ public who are shocked by the treatment of refugees by countries like Hungary –

          More importantly, it links this deep concern with NZ’s position on taking in refugees to an increasing sense of public disgust with the amount of money that’s being wasted on a vanity project to change our flag
        • One Anonymous Bloke 10.2.1.2

          4 September 2015 at 1:00 pm

          The ~30% of the electorate that voted for Key may be prepared to be led by a spiv. It takes a leader to cross partisan divides in a debate like this. Key is not that leader. Too many people regard him with well-founded suspicion and contempt.
        • greywarshark 10.2.1.3

          4 September 2015 at 7:15 pm

          So I am supposed to be objective about this flag thing. But the flag is intrinsically emotional, it’s all about making you feel something, every mention of it arouses emotion, new or old people get warm about it. You are a funny guy in your po-faced private school principal seriousness about it.

          Having multiple reasons for disliking it seems in your mind to cancel each other out, until all we are allowed to pass judgment on is – do you like the picture or not. Right well f… off then citizen, you had your paltry chance for a say. Go back to your plough or whatever unsophisticated work you are capable of.
      • Tracy Jane 10.2.2

        5 September 2015 at 9:42 am

        thank you for the words to express how I have been feeling but not exactly sure how to go about saying it.
11. Juju 11

    3 September 2015 at 8:20 pm

    Good art but the bleeding heart club needs to get a reality check about opening the floodgates to refugees. Obviously the country can and should take some but their numbers need to be container, considering NZ’s small population. As for the flag, an expensive new toy in my opinion.
    • Matthew Whitehead 11.1

      4 September 2015 at 4:26 am

      Juju- we rank 90th in the world on per-capita refugee quotas. We are hardly stretching our limits, and we could reasonably take several times the current amount without having any significant demographic effect on the population. We have over four million people in the country, and in our three-year program to acclimatise new refugees, we have under 4,000 people. Even if you think 0.1% of our population is an appropriate amount of people to have in our refugee program, you’re still effectively admitting we can triple the amount of refugees we take in.

      I’d be inclined to say we should double or triple our annual quota, and make a one-off emergency quota on top of that to help do our part with the refugees crisis. While refugees generally require some acclimatisation to New Zealand, afterwards they typically make excellent citizens as they are usually keen to get back to building a permanent life when they arrive. Not only are they great people to have in our country, but taking on refugees is a statement about who we are as a country, and that we believe in welcoming people who want to come to New Zealand, even if they’ve been through hard times. I’m not sure how you can oppose that as some “bleeding heart” policy that’s not pragmatic. Have you ever even met a refugee that came to New Zealand? Because I have.
      • cogito 11.1.1

        4 September 2015 at 7:20 am

        How many of those refugees we see in Sicily, Hungary or climbing onto trucks near the Channel tunnel etc are real refugees, how many are criminals on the run, how many are ISIS sympathisers etc? How much does anyone actually know about these people? Plenty seem to have enough money to pay traffickers, so where did they get the money from. Very easy to come up with stories of “bombing in my country”. We have to be humane but also very cautious.
        • miravox 11.1.1.1

          4 September 2015 at 7:31 am

          Money – family already working abroad sending money, savings from perfectly normal, everyday jobs (Syria was not exactly the third world despite literally being a bombsite now), savings from selling belongings.

          I fail to see how increasing freedom of travel for legal refuge, with associated identification processes will make the situation less dangerous than smuggling people in via people traffickers and/or the back of a lorry.
          • cogito 11.1.1.1.1

            4 September 2015 at 7:44 am

            “legal refuge, with associated identification processes”

            I am perfectly in favour of this. The big issue is what to do with all the rest. Images this morning of people throwing themselves on railway tracks etc. because they can’t get to Germany. This is just utter madness.
            • miravox 11.1.1.1.1.1

              4 September 2015 at 5:00 pm

              Thanks for the clarification. My concern was that you’d advocate for doing that opposite to what is happening now – i.e. send everyone back to where they came from.

              The system is broken. It wasn’t designed the reality of what destabilising a region could cause. The governments of the collective ‘west’ have been asleep for far, far too long on this and it’s way past time the rich world pulled together to fix it and ensure people who need safety get it…. fast.
        • locus 11.1.1.2

          4 September 2015 at 7:39 am

          most of the refugees talk about $2000 they had to pay for their passage….

          these are people who would give every last penny to save their families and themselves from the hell that they are leaving

          have a look at these photos and then decide what you’d pay to flee to safety http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/syria-residents-homs-return-city-rubble-1448248

          Ref: http://thestandard.org.nz/get-some-guts-2/#comment-1066583
          • cogito 11.1.1.2.1

            4 September 2015 at 7:51 am

            “decide what you’d pay to flee to safety”

            I spent years working in the Middle East. I have visited Palestinian refugee camps. I have listened to all sorts of stories. There are genuine people, and there are the rest. Right now they are all mixed up and creating a tidal wave. The genuine ones should be helped, the rest should be stopped and detained.
            • greywarshark 11.1.1.2.1.1

              4 September 2015 at 11:34 am

              cogito
              Your recipe is sound but impractical. The situation has gone beyond that allowing such careful consideration for those in Europe. We could be a bit more careful but I blanched at Peter Dunne’s comment about assessing them as immigrants have been of late, with cherry picked ones with good education getting the nod only.

              People with their children probably first priority I would think. They are unlikely to be ISIS fighters, many of whom would present as individual young males.
              • cogito …

                4 September 2015 at 2:10 pm

                The situation in Europe is absolutely beyond belief.

                We have to ensure that we don’t end up with tomorrow’s Jihadi John or Michael Adebolajo (who murdered Lee Rigby). The cultural and religious baggage that people from some of these countries carry is massive.

                Key could have provided humanitarian assistance months ago – as was suggested by many – but he sent the military to Camp Taji instead.
                • greywarshark …

                  4 September 2015 at 6:28 pm

                  Yes cogito
                  I agree with “The cultural and religious baggage that people from some of these countries carry is massive.”

                  I am very conflicted by it all. I have no wish to have people who are receptors for hate stuff exploding locally or being incited to go across and do it. But we can’t guarantee absolutely our safety. Even with we wonderful NZs, so calm, so kind, so thoughtful.

                  Our government wants us to be global and has removed our notional picket fence of tariffs, so everyone is in our face now. Whether they are financial mafia, or global business looking for a quick shell company, or importing fan worms now fornicating freely around our ports (have any of these wunderkind chefs got a recipe for the pests?), we have got to put up with the backwash.
        • Rodel 11.1.1.3

          4 September 2015 at 4:38 pm

          Refugee is not necessarily synonymous with poverty. It usually means that you don’t want to be killed.
          I once knew a Somalian refugee who drove a Mercedes in New Zealand.
          He had been a successful businessman in Somalia (all legitimate) and fled to New Zealand not because he was wealthy but because people were trying to kill him and his family for not accepting their cultural and religious principles.
          • cogito 11.1.1.3.1

            4 September 2015 at 5:04 pm

            I know. Same applies to Ahmed Zaoui.
          • greywarshark 11.1.1.3.2

            4 September 2015 at 6:35 pm

            Interesting but not relevant just now Rodel. For most of us our wealth would be in homes, cars, etc.

            The point that you illustrate is that most of the people who get away to other countries, are sterling people with a lot of drive and determination and probably will come in and be smarter than us and take over the country! It could happen.

            And it would be a good thing for NZ because I think our milk-strong diet has made us slow in the head, and big in the bottom, and particularly suggestible to, what would you think, BS of course. Like drawing to like. Alter the audio dynamics of question time in parliament and the MPs would probably sound like calves calling for their mothers, or bawling out big mooos in moments of stress.
    • Descendant Of Sssmith 11.2

      4 September 2015 at 6:44 am

      We’re taking plenty of refugees now – white religious Americans who want to make New Zealand into their own peculiar version of no-government, no tax conservatism,
      disillusioned white English who think that their country is now owned by foreigners who bludge off their welfare state and funnily enough want to impose Thatcher’s principles here with even more enthusiasm despite they don’t want to stay in the mess that Thatcher left behind, white South Africans who despise the demise of apartheid.

      We even had a party who stood candidates who had to rush through citizenship applications before an election.

      They just don’t appear on our refugee numbers.

      We’ve got plenty of room for other refugees. We should just stops bringing these people in.
      • JeevesPOnzi 11.2.1

        4 September 2015 at 7:45 am

        Hear! Hear!

        So very true.

        +1000
      • greywarshark 11.2.2

        4 September 2015 at 12:00 pm

        Descendant of S
        When the Constitution Conversation was being heard around NZ I noticed the old white men who came forward keen to wipe out our agreements with Maori, our years of negotiation on both sides for an agreement that government and Maori iwi, and hapu? could live with.

        It makes my heart sink to think of these ‘Sovereign’ anti-social, government-hating USA people coming here and trying to set up their own Eden colony in the Pacific. They would be just another exotic pest that would give us heartache. I notice from secondhand books handed in for resale, that many children’s books are from USA
        of the preachy religious type, and I have noticed the Prosperity Church type where financial management is explained. I question this type of Christianity, and whether it is Christian at all, and condemn it as a subject for Christian education.

        The South Africans don’t have to cope with the end result of apartheid. The Afrikaaners have set up a contained city state where they have their own laws and
        live very happy lives in a large gated community. and black people can work and I think can be granted residence rights. It can be noted that some of our notable murders have been committed by white South Africans of the professional class!
      • Anno1701 11.2.3

        4 September 2015 at 2:53 pm

        “white South Africans who despise the demise of apartheid.”

        we even let ex SA death squad members into this country

        and then let them run for election as an MP in a particular Auckland suburb…..
    • locus 11.3

      4 September 2015 at 7:27 am

      Juju

      Opening the floodgates

      Really? Do you really mean that?

      There are 542 towns in NZ, so a family of four in each town would mean 2,168 refugees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_in_New_Zealand

      i.e. more than triple the number of refugees we’re currently taking in would only mean one family in each town in NZ
12. AmaKiwi 12

    3 September 2015 at 8:53 pm

    I love this flag debate and I don’t give a stuff what flag we end up with.

    The flag issue is Key’s signature piece of legislation. The more dissatisfaction for whatever reasons, the more his image is damaged.
    • cogito 12.1

      4 September 2015 at 11:26 am

      “the more his image is damaged”

      ….the quicker we will see the back of him.

      As far as the flag goes, I am flying the NZ flag from a 20′ flag pole at home. It looks fantastic. It is actually worth looking at the flag afresh sometimes, flying in the breeze. It’s beautiful. Keep the flag.
      • Chooky 12.1.1

        4 September 2015 at 5:02 pm

        +100 …keep the flag … it represents New Zealand

        …a new flag will represent John Key and his immoral bunch of mates and greedy wannabes
        • cogito 12.1.1.1

          4 September 2015 at 5:31 pm

          Very well said.

          The right time will come for a new flag, but not now, not with the current alternatives, and not with Key driving it.
13. mick 13

    3 September 2015 at 9:58 pm

    Keys flag, poll dancing.
    • greywarshark 13.1

      4 September 2015 at 12:02 pm

      @mick
      LOL++
      • Chooky 13.1.1

        4 September 2015 at 5:10 pm

        +100..make a good savage cartoon.
14. Smilin 14

    3 September 2015 at 11:38 pm

    A flag summarizing Keys PMship of the last 7 yrs, amazingly historical back to WW2 and the great depression
    DEFINITELY the best flag yet to show whats happened to 26 million bucks and who suffer because of the wastage , the money would help those refugees.Then the flag we have now might mean what it is in history and what it should mean today again
    Key should get rid of his ignorance and blind adherence to his own self importance with his 59 seat continuous rorting of the democratic principles of this country’s and stop being the only authority on whats good for NZ.
    Because he’s not, he is just another gross right wing arrogant purveyor of a lobbyist govt that allows the rich right of passage to NZ but not those living in fear of their lives, being victims of western economic plunder in their country
15. stever 15

    4 September 2015 at 8:46 am

    Great piece of art!

    Sort of related: do the ABs (and other national teams) currently wear the NZ flag on their kit?
    • Paul Campbell 15.1

      4 September 2015 at 10:33 am

      well from the pictures on yesterday’s press junket they seem to be representing Adiddas and AIG, not New Zealand – they’re a business, just like facebook, if you’re not paying them then it’s you who are the product being sold
      • stever 15.1.1

        4 September 2015 at 5:53 pm

        OK…so they don’t currently even remotely have the NZ flag on their kit.

        So, to be consistent and keep up their traditions…they will have to (1) think up a new emblem if one of the ferns gets to be the new flag (they don’t have anything resembling the current flag on their kit, so if the new one has a fern on it they will have to ditch that); and (2) they must of course not have the new flag on their kit (since they don’t have the current one).

        I wonder what the new logo will be for the ABs??
16. Steve Wrathall 16

    4 September 2015 at 12:28 pm

    Because a country protected by 1000s of km of ocean and Australia’s turn-back-the-boats policy should be scolding countries with land borders for protecting themselves from economic migrants
    • Macro 16.1

      4 September 2015 at 12:43 pm

      Could you kindly provide some reasonable argument to show how your comment above relates in any way to the post.
      Or should we again dismiss any comment from you as attempted distraction?
      • Steve Wrathall 16.1.1

        4 September 2015 at 1:00 pm

        What is there to explain?The image clearly condemns those who want to protect their own borders, and illicits sympathy for the four forlorn figure who are…holding babies…or maybe taking selfies?
        • One Anonymous Bloke 16.1.1.1

          4 September 2015 at 1:08 pm

          Another fearful vision through the right wing lens. Sad, like Trump.
        • Macro 16.1.1.2

          4 September 2015 at 1:38 pm

          Can you explain to an simple ignoramus like myself how even a doubling of quota from 750 refugees per year ( a quota incidentally that NZ has failed to reach most years since being reduced from 850 in 1997) http://www.stuff.co.nz/blogs/opinion/10026355/Miserly-refugee-intake-shows-New-Zealand-has-to-do-more, is an opening up of our borders? Bearing in mind, the fact that NZ’s nett migration for last year was in excess of 100,000. Many of them financial refugees who could afford to purchase their entry into this country?
          You might also like to address the irony of the child of a Jewish refugee who fled from Austria to the safety of England, can so blatantly dismiss the plight of those people caught in a similar situation to that of his mother.
          Your depiction of people suffering from the traumatic disruption of their lives and fleeing for safety does you little credit as a worthwhile human being. May you rot in hell.
          • Steve Wrathall 16.1.1.2.1

            4 September 2015 at 2:09 pm

            It is ironic that so many contributors to a site that advocates extensive welfarism, cannot see that such welfarism immediately necessitates the building of a fence around it.
            • One Anonymous Bloke 16.1.1.2.1.1

              4 September 2015 at 2:12 pm

              It is ironic that such a privileged beneficiary can be such an ungrateful prick.
              • cogito …

                4 September 2015 at 2:28 pm

                I presume you are referring to Key. In which case I agree with you 100%. Key is the king of double standards.
                • vto …

                  4 September 2015 at 2:31 pm

                  Didn’t Key’s Mum get let into NZ as a special refugee?

                  John Key’s own mother, no less ….

                  She must be ashamed at how her son has turned out
                  • cogito …

                    4 September 2015 at 2:50 pm

                    Courtesy of marrying a Brit.

                    And Key doesn’t show any respect for Britain either.

                    He is sc*m on all fronts.
                    • vto …

                      4 September 2015 at 2:56 pm

                      So what has led to John Key turning out the way he has?

                      His culture?
                      His mother?
                      His father?
                      His religion?
                      His school?
                      His own thinking?
                  • Macro …

                    4 September 2015 at 2:59 pm

                    no vto Keys mother escaped to England from Austria where she subsequently married his English father. The family emigrated to NZ in the 1950’s where Key was born.
                    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10522311
                    • Ffloyd …

                      4 September 2015 at 8:41 pm

                      Veto. John Key thinks??
                • One Anonymous Bloke …

                  4 September 2015 at 3:20 pm

                  Nah Cogito I’m talking about Wrathall, who has benefited so much from the system he would abandon.
            • Macro 16.1.1.2.1.2

              4 September 2015 at 3:11 pm

              I’m sorry wrathall but that is simply not an explanation at all!
              Are you now advocating unrestricted access to NZ by all and sundry?
              Or are you advocating that we dispense with all assistance to those on the fringe of society, the children, the disabled, the sick and dying, the unemployed and under employed, and the aged, and let them all rot? Are you advocating a return to dickensian poor houses and child labour?
              I believe the whorehouses were quiet cheap in those days as was gin to ease the pain. Well thanks to your lot were are well on the way back to that state of disgrace but frankly I’d prefer not to go there.
              • Steve Wrathall …

                4 September 2015 at 3:49 pm

                Neither of these ridiculous extremes. I made an entirely valid observation that welfare states require a fence built around them. Thank you all for demonstrating that you have no answer except the standard anti-Key bile.
                • Macro …

                  4 September 2015 at 3:57 pm

                  Sorry mate – it’s not me who has no answer – as all those who care to observe this “discussion” can vouch.
                • freedom …

                  4 September 2015 at 4:12 pm

                  Steve, the bile would be unnecessary if what the man said didn’t so often resemble great clumps of idealogical lard which is of little benefit to the the body-politic but does clog the arteries of compassion and lead to disease of the heart.
                • vto …

                  4 September 2015 at 4:42 pm

                  “Thank you all for demonstrating that you have no answer except the standard anti-Key bile”

                  This issue is entirely about Key so wtf are you on about?
                • Descendant Of Sssmith …

                  4 September 2015 at 5:40 pm

                  What fence?

                  In fact it is and should be the reverse.

                  When taking a refugee they will need the best opportunity to get back on their feet and get established.

                  They will often have been through trauma and have psychological issues to deal with, they will often have no resources.

                  The support engendered by the welfare state will give the best chance for the greatest number to get back on their feet.

                  The stony and prickly landscape of the private sector and the cold heart of charity will only produce success for a chosen few.

                  So far from a fence being needed, the welfare state tears down those barriers that face those new to here, that those who come from pain and suffering, those that are persecuted on religious or political grounds.
                • Molly …

                  4 September 2015 at 5:44 pm

                  Many – including Key – speak about NZ being a global player.

                  He refers only to the amount of money we can extract from the other countries around the world. In reality, this comes at a cost to other communities and citizens around the world.

                  Our consumerist lifestyle is subsidised by displacement of communities, exploitation of vulnerable and desperate people, disdain for environment and biodiversity and the addiction to the Class-A drug of fossil fuel energy use.

                  These continual withdrawals are finally resulting in a NIL balance – ie. nothing left to take, despoil or destroy.

                  Mass movements of people are the rational expected result. We need to recognise the part we play in that.

                  Global trade – needs to come with global responsibility.

                  Our current government admits to no responsibility, either at home or abroad.

                  It is not “standard anti-Key bile” to state that. It is the truth.
                  • Chooky …

                    4 September 2015 at 7:57 pm

                    +100 Molly
                  • freedom …

                    4 September 2015 at 8:50 pm

                    +1 Molly

                    the more we have, the less we are
17. Chooky 17

    4 September 2015 at 5:21 pm

    We should be taking in lots of these refugees from the Middle East ….from Syria , Iraq , Libya, Afgnistan…how about 20,000 ?…(and many women and children)

    …At the same time we should be putting United Nations pressure on the Western countries who created this Middle East destabilisation, refugee crisis, holocaust, in the first place

    …to take responsiblitiy for what they have done and to take in most of the refugees

    New Zealand does not need wealthy overseas speculators ripping New Zealanders off of their land and housing….and it does not need more wealthy overseas immigrants ….but we can afford refugees
    • cogito 17.1

      4 September 2015 at 5:40 pm

      20,000 refugees? And put them where? No chance in Auckland, so spread around the zombie towns? What would they do? Live on a benefit and get abused by WINZ staff every other week? Of course they would feel “safe” but it would not be a life for them. You remember Ahmed Zaoui? He was a man of knowledge and culture. Last I heard he was selling kebabs. What a waste.
      • Chooky 17.1.1

        4 September 2015 at 6:57 pm

        it might not be much of a life for them…but it would be a life ( they are fleeing for their lives!.) … and it would be a chance

        i suggest we nationalise and get back all foreign speculator money laundered ‘owned’ NZ property…plenty of houses all around then…we also get back all our NZ state assets that jonkey nactional has ripped off and sold off to his mates…plenty of money to go around then

        20,000 people are not that many…same size as our largest secondary schools
18. Redbaiter 18

    4 September 2015 at 5:51 pm

    What about Mike Hosking’s appalling attack upon the RSA?

    That this oily invertebrate sees fit to attack our warriors in another show of lame obeisance to the Key govt is a disgrace.

    Vulgar and effiminate nancy boy whose opinions are as thin and transparent as cellophane.

    More should be made of this gratuitous attack.

    http://truebluenz.com/2015/09/04/mike-hoskings-atrocious-pro-govt-propaganda-attack-on-rsa/
    • One Anonymous Bloke 18.1

      4 September 2015 at 6:04 pm

      Fuck off, liar.
      
      • weka 18.1.1

        4 September 2015 at 7:22 pm

        Liar and linkwhore 😉
19. Redbaiter 19

    4 September 2015 at 7:02 pm

    Well, at least I’m not an unprincipled lowlife coward who shelters behind the political sympathies of the blog owners.

    [lprent: That is kind of ironic bearing in mind that I just gave OAB his first ban for a long time – for advocating violence. I will happily ban anyone and do, but I ban them for behaviour. There is an imbalance based on political affiliation, but I suspect that is more related to the distinction between those who value the site and those who don’t.

    Those who don’t value it usually behave significantly worse in terms of what moderators are looking for because they don’t value it – most seem to be of the view that site should never exist or that it should reflect their views rather than those of its authors. Consequently they get far more moderator warnings and bans.

    Those who do value the site seem to actively try to avoid behaviours that get them kicked off the site.

    A much simpler and far more accurate statement that actually fits the facts rather than your delusional paranoid conspiracy theory which ignores showing any proof. Personally and in the same vein as your theory, I suspect that you make up these kinds of ideas by your favoured technique of deciding by sticking your finger up your arse and doing a taste test on what comes out.

    BTW: You are aware of the policy about inferring ulterior motives to the site? Your arse just advised you to violate that. This is your warning. ]
    • One Anonymous Bloke 19.1

      4 September 2015 at 7:10 pm

      Stop lying and you’ll earn some respect, trash.
20. Chooky 20

    4 September 2015 at 7:59 pm

    ‘Western-made refugee crisis’

    http://www.rt.com/shows/crosstalk/313860-western-crisis-eu-refugees/

    “The real and imagined refugee crisis engulfing Europe: What accounts for the EU’s near indifference to the plight of refugees clamoring to enter European countries? Could it be that these people are from countries NATO members have attacked, and turned into failed states or havens for terrorists? These refugees never wanted to leave home in the first place…

    CrossTalking with Sukant Chandan, Anders Lustgarten, and Tim Finch.”
    • cogito 20.1

      4 September 2015 at 8:41 pm

      Some extreme views there.

      Sukant Chandan’s mantra that all the problems are the fault of the British is very old indeed. During my Middle East days I heard similar arguments repeated so many times that I could run them off by heart and even recite them back to people for the fun just to get them to shut up. To their credit, Arabs often have a great sense of humour and when they realise that you know their litanies and tricks they have the grace to back off and share a laugh…. even with an infidel!
      • Instauration 20.1.1

        5 September 2015 at 1:04 am

        It is not extreme to assert that the deposing of Gaddafi created a state that compels Exodus. Nor to assert that the scent of Jasmine was toxic.
        The West and Saudi constriction of Assad’s sovereign right to deliver civil redress to Jisr al-Shughour must be viewed for what it is – not what is portrayed.

        So very easy for you cogito to glibly say “because I say this has been heard before – and I know it better – and Arabs laugh” – that we can dismiss such scrutiny.
        We don’t.
        • cogito 20.1.1.1

          5 September 2015 at 9:20 am

          @instauration

          If you are going to quote me using quotation marks – do it accurately. Or is that beyond your capabilities?
          • Instauration 20.1.1.1.1

            5 September 2015 at 9:20 pm

            The preceding adjective “glibly” marked-up the following quotation as a distillation of your ascribed sentiments – this distillation clearly reveals the banality of your reasoning .
            Address the substance of the paragraph that precedes – if you are capable ?
21. cogito 21

    4 September 2015 at 9:35 pm

    Great piece by Tim Shadbolt (except that he can’t spell Magna Carta!):

    I’m a Union Jack man

    “We should be proud of our history so I’m sorry Prime Minister, and thanks for your help, but I’ll be voting for the good old Union Jack”.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/opinion/71741307/I-m-a-Union-Jack-man

    🙂 🙂 🙂
22. Chooky 22

    5 September 2015 at 9:40 am

    +100..,. GO Tim Shadbolt !….”I’m a Union Jack man”
    • cogito 22.1

      5 September 2015 at 9:46 am

      🙂 🙂 🙂
23. bron 23

    6 September 2015 at 8:49 am

    Key doesn’t understand anything about flags but everything about logos. He’s ignorant and arrogant with it. Who does he remind u of?

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