A Tale of Two Protests

Written By: - Date published: 4:09 pm, September 8th, 2018 - 79 comments
Categories: activism, global warming, International, Politics, the praiseworthy and the pitiful - Tags: , ,

At about a quarter to one this afternoon, I swung around the corner at the Exchange and noticed quite a reasonable number of people ‘across the way’. By their obvious signage, they were protesting the use of 1080. I’d guess there was something like 30 people there.

A few minutes later, on the way through the Octagon, I stopped to chat with a few people who’d gathered as part of the global day of action called “Rise for Climate”, and I picked up some leaflets. When I first passed through, it was before their advertised “start” time and there was a very light smattering of something like a dozen people.

Fast forward one hour.

Coming back through the Octagon, I’d say there was maybe twenty people. All white and all exuding a definate air of middle classness There was an electric car and some electric bikes and, to be honest, I immediately thought of a stall at a sales expo.

The bus driver (I was on a bus at this point) didn’t “toot” in support, and I didn’t hear any passing cars tooting support either

Down by The Exchange, there was maybe something like 40 or 50 people and…well, the only demographic that seemed to be missing was the white middle class. The bus driver tooted support. And as the bus sat at the next set of lights, I could hear further toots of support from passing motorists off behind us.

So what might it tell us, when a gathering about the future viability of how we live attracts a smattering of people from a single demographic, and a gathering about the use of a poison seemingly attracts every demographic but, and (maybe) two or three times as many people?

I don’t think the people protesting 1080 would be antagonistic to messages on global warming. And there is an obvious enough cross-over, because the things those people at the 1080 protest are seeking to protect get clattered by global warming.

I don’t know what, if any, information was available from the 1080 gathering. (I was on a bus both times I passed the Exchange.) But I do know what their message was. As do you.

Anyway, I’ve just this minute read the leaflets I gathered from the Octagon. There’s some good information within the half a dozen or so leaflets I grabbed. But some of the information is also, quite frankly, incredibly unhelpful, while a lot of it is decidedly naive. Overall, there’s too much confusing or irrelevant smash, and no timeless and simple “banner message” that might offer unity and a basis for people to built on.

Just to be clear. I’m not suggesting that everyone ought to be saying the same damned things about global warming or climate change, or that everyone ought to cleave to the same set of priorities.

But there has to be something short and sharp, something unequivocal and easy to grasp that allows people “entry”.

Until then, I suspect actions around global warming will remain somewhat “soft” – places and events where people already familiar with one another can gather to say hello – and the prospects for growing a large and broad based constituency of people, willing to stand up and proclaim that they give a shit –  well, that will remain decidedly low.

79 comments on “A Tale of Two Protests”

    • Bill 1.1

      The post isn’t about “rights” and “wrongs”, but about effectiveness.

      • Ed 1.1.1

        I know.
        I was trying to find more about each.
        Climate protest will only be more effective if it is a lot more radical.

  1. Ad 3

    This relates well to the post complaining about Leighton Smith.

    Climate Change as an issue in NZ is at risk of going the way of the GE, Kermadec Reserve, microplastics, plastic bag, and other environmental protest issues: they’ve peaked and no one is leading them.

    MSM media abhor a vacuum – which is annoying when there’s a specific Minister responsible for climate change. Maybe we just have to wait until his bill lands.

      • Chuck 3.1.1

        “The Greens need to be a lot more militant on the subject.”

        They can’t Ed… they are now in Government and have to be seen to be at least semi-responsible.

      • Dennis Frank 3.1.2

        I agree with this thinking. I’ve always been at the radical leading edge conceptually and often find the GP too mainstream. But to be successful in politics, one must compromise. To find common ground with others, one must put personal priorities to one side. To extend consensus, one must be able to see where the overlap lies in the comprehension of others.

        I don’t like the fact that a site with such good content is anonymous. People must have the courage of their convictions to be successful politically. Paranoia has no constructive effect. The site could be an SIS false-flag operation designed to suck in naive angry youngsters.

    • Bill 3.2

      To be honest, I don’t think it’s a matter of “leadership”, but a case of messaging.

      There’s a list of 11 groups listed in one of the leaflets I picked up, and I know for a fact that some of those groups – well intentioned though they are – are advocating or fighting for measures that would have us sail well through 2 degrees and beyond.

      If there was some “catch-all” phrase or slogan that every argued case could easily be measured against, then the chaff could be gotten rid of and progress could begin.

      edit – I’d argue that unless something dovetails with yearly reductions in fossil of about 10%, then it’s smash, or red herring. (Shaw’s proposals – as he has expressed them – are both 👿 )

      • Ad 3.2.1

        It’s quite possible to disagree with Shaw and still agree that there’s still only one entity capable of leading a nationwide debate on climate change: the government.

        They have the capacity to demand the media time on tv and radio, the resources to roll out any kind of comms and engagement you like, and the ability to harness all relevant NGOs to one cause.

        I went on the big march before he Paris agreement was signed. It felt great, but it was the peak of climate change media coverage here. That’s the leadership bit that isn’t being connected to the messaging bit.

  2. gsays 4

    Perhaps folk see climate change is an issue that is beyond our influence.

    1080, however, it is possible to stop this barbaric practice.

    • Bill 4.1

      How can something that’s entirely down to our influence, be beyond our influence?

      I can see why people would feel hopeless, but then, give us the measure that everything must satisfy and that we can gather beneath, and that changes.

      • Ed 4.1.1

        Because it’s always pitched at ‘what you can do individually?’
        Just an idea.

      • gsays 4.1.2

        @Bill 4.1
        Ok fair enough.

        Maybe control would have been word than influence.

        What you have written above seems to point at leadership, and while we are wedded to neo-liberal, budget restraint, don’t scare the horses, steady as we go, let’s get re-elected…. we are stuffed.

    • Incognito 4.2

      Succinct!

    • sumsuch 4.3

      Read the evidence. Which is the thing between us and the Right — and why the born again Christians don’t like us — and between us and disaster. Reason and demo-cracy go hand in hand.

  3. Incognito 5

    This is just a thought but when you want to rage against the machine, so to speak, it helps to have a clear identifiable & tangible target such as 1080. Climate Change is much more nebulous; it is so evasive, so overwhelming, that people simply shut down feeling powerless. The powers that be have much invested, and everything to lose, in maintaining these feelings of powerlessness and they actively try & prevent people from realising their collective power and using it …

    • Bill 5.1

      I agree with your thought, but…(and then I’m going to leave this thread before I turn comments into a blue rash of memememe)….

      there is a carbon budget. It is known. There are emission totals and their rates. These are known via retrospective measurement. From that, we know the necessary reduction rate in fossil that would keep us in budget. (It varies a bit from country to country, but is about 10% per annum.) And the reduction must be ongoing down to zero – where zero is not “net zero”, but none, nada, zilch).

      There’s the target. (zero) There’s the ‘agent’ (carbon emitting sources of energy). Put those two things together and get on with it.

      • marty mars 5.1.1

        Bill – most people imo are not interested 8n the numbers etc you love and quote. They don’t care, don’t understand and don’t care. Anti 1080 is emotive and drags a wide variety in. It is a classic for these times because the whole debate is emotive yet argued apparently rationally. Trump style. Lies bullshit and agendas. Now climate change has all that but until it gets worse it won’t be handleable for people- too big, too hard.

        A pithy slogan – big mirrors everywhere saying – it’s YOUR problem!

        • gsays 5.1.1.1

          So in your eyes, to be against a poison that kills in a painful, slow, inhumane way, is just emotive.

          It also kills indiscriminately, anything that invests it – dogs, horses, koura….

          Please enlighten me, where negative I lied and what agenda do you think I am pushing?

          • marty mars 5.1.1.1.1

            Everyone including doc is against poison – it’s just the best we have at the moment. Come up with a better idea and everyone will do it.

          • mauī 5.1.1.1.2

            gsays I saw the protest on the news tonight. The demographic there appeared to be a lot of men, in outdoors gear, sunglasses. A little bit rough if that’s not too harsh? Now is this the sort of crowd who are so passionate about animal cruelty that you would see them volunteering at the local SPCA. Somehow I doubt it, they are outdoorsmen, they have skin in the game. Possibly possum skin, you know?… You might find that killing possums for skins can be equally as barbaric. Go check out the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment’s report on 1080. There you’ll see trapping live possums is put on par with poisoning them in terms of animal welfare.

          • mauī 5.1.1.1.3

            It also kills indiscriminately, anything that invests it – dogs, horses, koura….

            That is misleading, strict conditions are put on it’s use. I would doubt any of those non-target animals get caught up in a successfully run operation. Those animals are most at risk by people ignoring signs and warnings.

            • gsays 5.1.1.1.3.1

              Hmm.. I have seen footage of koura fighting over a bait. Perhaps they hadn’t read the signs.

              All of which is immaterial, the way 1080 kills is painful and slow.
              I am not a vegan, I am not a trapper, just someone who isn’t swayed by possums = evil, native is good. I have watched morepork kill young fantail in the nest.

              But we are digressing from the point of the post.

              • left_forward

                Very selective concerns gsays.. you’re seemingly content to eat cows, sheep, pigs, ducks, lambs, and chickens (slaughtered by the hundreds of billions worldwide each year), but very concerned about a horse or dog or even koura that might occasionally succomb to 1080.

                Of course nobody is saying opossums are evil either, they are just destroying the habitat for native flora and fauna (just as humans are !).
                And yes preserving native habitat is indeed a ‘good’ that is worthy of protection.

                • gsays

                  Akin to the vibe in this thread, I have virtually no influence over foreign farming practices.
                  You will need to brush up on your mind reading abilities as I do not eat much pork nor chicken, basically because of the cruelty (Also the flavour of poultry has diminished in the last two decades).
                  Cough.. steroids, hormones..Cough cough.

                  1080 use in Aotearoa is something that I have a bit more sway on. Funnily enough, there aren’t many other countries that do use it…?

                  It is the cruel, painful and unnecessary death that makes me oppose its indiscriminate use.

                  • KJT

                    You prefer the cruel, painful and unnecessary death of native chicks, by wild cats, dogs, possums, stoats etc?

                    • gsays

                      You prefer the cruel, painful and unnecessary death of native chicks, by wild cats, dogs, possums, stoats etc?

                      To death by 1080, yes.

                    • gsays

                      This is not a tina situation.
                      Put a bounty of $10.

                      Pet food, although a memory is stirring that a viable export opossum pet food business ceased because of the threat of 1080.

                      Part of that regional lolly scramble can go into job schemes taking youth off the concrete into the Bush.

                      I am aware I have only mentioned opossum, but with more feet on the ground the trapping of rats, mustelids and cats becomes more viable.

                    • KJT

                      1080 allows those chicks to reach adulthood.

        • Bill 5.1.1.2

          I don’t ‘love’ the numbers marty. They are what they are. And sure, numbers are maybe a bit too clinical or whatever, but they offer the basic understanding, give politicians and policy makers no wriggle room, and can, or need to be translated into some “pithy slogan” or what not that packs emotional punch most people will relate and react to.

      • Incognito 5.1.2

        Ok then, let’s go with this. The problem is, as I see it, that it is way too big and runs the risk of becoming an empty slogan. In my view, to be (more) effective, it needs to be broken down in smaller achievable targets. People are more inclined to come on board if they can see the task(s) ahead as ‘manageable’. Same applies to politicians: if the required policies can be made more ‘palatable’ to the electorate and not lead to immediate political ‘suicide’. This does not mean that policies become ‘watered down’ or that this should be done by stealth but rather the opposite; they need to be open about it and build trust, much more trust, and this will lead to more meaningful engagement with the public – after all, it’s the public, not the 120 MPs, who will have to make the necessary changes in behaviour and lifestyle. If politicians fail to build this deeper relationships founded on trust they risk further alienation, frustration, and dismissal and we’ll all boil like the proverbial frogs in the pan with hot water.

        • Bill 5.1.2.1

          There’s no way around the physics of it.

          If marty’s right in claiming numbers turn people off then…. what? “Cut or Bust”? Whatever – something simple, real and all encompassing – but not “smaller achievable targets” because there are none. 10% reductions are the very least we can maybe get away with. Obviously, there’s no guarantee we get away with that level of action.

          But at some point (if there’s to be one arrived at) then we have to get our heads around the fact that we, and everything we do, is going to have to adapt to the changes we make before the reality of physics.

          If we choose to adapt to the climatic effects that will follow from not taking affirmative action instead, then we’re stuffed. As far as much of the world goes, we’re just not biologically capable of adapting to the warming that’s just a little way off.

          And if pollies are running to “comfort illusions” because they think acknowledging reality will lose them elections (do we really think they’re “in the know” and/or “on the ball” btw?), then they need to up their fucking game or fuck the fuck off.

          Otherwise…

          • Incognito 5.1.2.1.1

            People don’t give a toss about the physics of CC because they don’t understand it; it is more complex & complicated than Einstein’s theories, for example (way too ‘esoteric’ and only for real experts). They’ll ‘understand’ things they can see with their own eyes, not abstract models & extrapolations. That’s not to say that people are stupid but rather that the message should be kept simple (basic) and, most of all, honest.

            Of course, there are “smaller achievable targets”! CC is not the result of one big human activity; it’s the result of many smaller processes that, over time, culminate into CC that is a global disaster in the making. Thus, to tackle CC, it needs to be addressed at each of those smaller contributions; death by a thousand cuts can only be averted by preventing those thousand cuts – there is no single ‘killer blow’. Maybe we’re talking different things here?

            Yes, pollies need to up their game but the electorate does too by allowing them do so. In fact, the voters need to give the pollies the mandate to make the necessary changes. But, and this is a very big “but”, it must be a two-way thing; we cannot blame or accuse the pollies of failing at their duty if we chop their heads off at the first attempt to even put CC on the table let alone when they propose some real changes to counter CC.

            Ideally, arguments to combat CC are not singular but serve more than one purpose. That is, there are more benefits than just (!) CC. People are sensitive to such arguments and their merit …

            • Bill 5.1.2.1.1.1

              Most of AGW is the result of burning fossil fuels. Lesser contributions (from agricultural practices for example) are themselves, largely only possible because of fossil fuel use.

              If we don’t cut emissions from sources of energy (ie – primarily cut fossil use) by 10% every year from now until we get to zero, then two degrees becomes an impossibility. That’s the reality. And that’s the smallest available target – every year, another reduction of 10%.

              • Incognito

                Ok, you talk about overall target, the required outcome. I meant the specific steps that need to be (or could be) taken in order to achieve that overall target. We’re slowly inching to actionable changes on a daily timeframe and a house-hold (or individual) kind of level. Some of these will be enacted ‘spontaneously’ (i.e. voluntarily) and some will have to be imposed by our Lawmakers (politicians); this will require much more engagement from both the public and politicians with each other.

            • KJT 5.1.2.1.1.2

              AGW is incredibly simple.

              Claiming it is difficult to understand is a cop out.

              The earth has a temperature suitable for life, because the atmosphere retains just enough of the suns heat. Gases humans are introducing, with their energy and food production, are changing this balance. Made worse by removing forests, which absorb those gases.

              Climate change is the result of putting more heat into the earths weather systems.

              The more energy you put into a system, the faster moving and more chaotic, it becomes.

              The solution is obvious. A steady state, sustainable use of energy is required.
              Unfortunately. Our economic system is dependent on continuous growth, which requires continual increases in consumption.

              • Incognito

                AGW is incredibly simple.

                I don’t want to be splitting hairs but I said that the “physics of CC” is enormously complex.

                To argue the opposite is disingenuous.

                Your comment explained nothing; it was a simplistic narrative, not a scientific explanation of cause and effect. It did not refer the Laws of Physics and how these underpin CC in a rational and unbiased way.

                I’m giving you a hard time because this what CC deniers do: they claim that CC is just (!) a narrative with no objective basis that can be verified irrespective of one’s background or cultural grounding (AKA ‘conditioning’; the usual postmodern blabla). To counter such argument you must come up with a strong(er) counter-argument, not just more narrative.

                The solution is obvious. A steady state, sustainable use of energy is required.

                I have no idea what you mean by this. Are you saying that all use of energy contributes to CC? What makes it sustainable or unsustainable? Do we have to curb our use of energy or transfer/transform to other forms of energy in terms of production & use?

                Nebulous debate won’t get us out of the hole …

      • corodale 5.1.3

        yes, but do you take the next step and add cow methane? I would say, not as a 1:1 with CO2 eq.

        Seriously, you wont make progress if you tax cow methane. Unless it applies as a limit, farm specific at reg council level, cap on cows/ha, which drives organic fert, to cropping food, n pushing hay, grassing and dung beetles, and natural soil n light-based N assimilation. A 10%p/a reduction on methane limit is ok, if it is measured against organic practices, to avoid 1080 style solutions with spraying chemicals on pasture to reduce methane during digestion. Plantain and chicory are real options, KISS without GE n BS.

  4. Draco T Bastard 6

    So what might it tell us, when a gathering about the future viability of how we live attracts a smattering of people from a single demographic, and a gathering about the use of a poison seemingly attracts every demographic but, and (maybe) two or three times as many people?

    That the majority of people are a bunch uninformed fuckwits who have absolutely NFI WTF they’re talking about?

    If these people want to protect the environment from possums then, ATM, we need 1080. We simply have nothing else to replace it until the scientists produce a drug that makes all possums in NZ infertile.

    I don’t know what, if any, information was available from the 1080 gathering.

    We can pretty much assume that it was all lies. Same as the BS about vaccines causing autism.

    • Stuart Munro 6.1

      The aerial use of 1080 flies in the face of all recent progress in terms of bait stations and the like in reducing collateral kills. So we cannot pretend that it is a measure with any pro-environmental intent – aerial 1080 drops cheerfully kill native species.

      It’s a budgetary move – a calculation that massive poisoning will create a net environmental benefit. But it deliberately ignores counter evidence, like the survival of rat populations through successive drops. And it estimates collateral kills based on found body counts, not remainder population counts, when it should do both because bird bodies are readily missed, and understating them overstates the safety and validity of the practice.

      Perhaps most importantly however, there is little or no public support for mass poisoning programs, however much they may appeal to Treasury, the architect of so many of the howling disasters still afflicting our long suffering nation.

      • gsays 6.1.1

        Well said Stuart, I’ve long maintained that the only way 1080 use can be justified is through a balance sheet lens.

        • corodale 6.1.1.1

          That fits my world view, as I see Sage as a top quality Minister. This is an example, yet again of governance by finance, the capital overload of debt n QE. The people are puppets, but they are making the least bad option, til things are fine tuned.

      • Draco T Bastard 6.1.2

        The aerial use of 1080 flies in the face of all recent progress in terms of bait stations and the like in reducing collateral kills.

        [citation needed]

        It’s a budgetary move – a calculation that massive poisoning will create a net environmental benefit.

        Yes it is and yes it does.

        But it deliberately ignores counter evidence, like the survival of rat populations through successive drops.

        No it doesn’t. It accepts that drops will not be 100% effective. That it’s actually impossible for it to be 100% effective but that it improves survivability of native species.

        And it estimates collateral kills based on found body counts, not remainder population counts, when it should do both because bird bodies are readily missed,

        [Citation needed]

        Although, all the actual evidence that I’ve seen shows native populations increasing after a drop while rat and other pests decrease.

        Perhaps most importantly however, there is little or no public support for mass poisoning programs

        Popularity != right thing to do

        Especially when the people actually don’t know WTF they’re talking about.

        • Stuart Munro 6.1.2.1

          I might try and find the citations for you – but if you didn’t know how the collateral kill rate was calculated, how much trust should we repose in your belief that the effect is net positive? How one calculates things has a big effect on measured outcomes.

          This 1080 thing falls into the category of heroic interventions – it requires great scrupulousness and adherence to precautionary principles because it involves the killing of protected species. As with any budget driven initiative of course ecological wisdom and prudence are the first things thrown out the window.

          It’s not about popularity but democratic assent. Who the hell do these poisoners think they are killing native species? They can and should be charged for their collateral kills.

          1080 is an autocratic policy created by the infallible fuckwits in Wellington. There are few to no boots on the ground ensuring that what they think they’re doing is what is actually happening – as evidenced by the 1080 dumping on Stewart Island.

          • JC 6.1.2.1.1

            “1080 is an autocratic policy created by the infallible fuckwits in Wellington. There are few to no boots on the ground ensuring that what they think they’re doing is what is actually happening – as evidenced by the 1080 dumping on Stewart Island.”

            Hmmm Don’t think they All live in Wellys … Some Reading for you Stuart, and gsays ….

            “Journalist Dave Hansford Hansford has had 39 jobs, according to a friend’s calculation. Among others, he’s been a fisherman, a truck driver, a golf green keeper, a general hand on a farm and a pie baker.

            Dave Hansford wrote a book about the pest poison 1080 because “someone had to”.

            “I’d grown tired of seeing the volume and the extremity and the sheer amounts of BS in circulation about 1080,” he says.”

            http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/92620150/national-portrait-1080-author-dave-hansford

            https://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/news/105497683/environment-southland-to-investigate-1080-dump-on-stewart-island

            https://thespinoff.co.nz/science/17-07-2018/1080-does-not-kill-kiwis-on-the-contrary-it-helps-them-live/

            https://www.pce.parliament.nz/…/update-report-evaluating-the-use-of-1080-predators-…

            Realise this is off topic on the Post! But then so are your, (and gsays) maligned threads ….

            • Stuart Munro 6.1.2.1.1.1

              With respect, he’s not really coming to grips with the science.

              If you’re going to use sampling to justify a policy, you want to take pains to get the sampling right – especially if it involves killing the species your policies ostensibly aim to protect.

              The scientific justifications of the 1080 campaign that I’ve seen to date don’t hold water, and neither do your links.

              Hansford – it’s an appeal to authority – a common feature of the campaign.

              The 1080 campaign is not directed at protecting birds, but at eliminating possible vectors for livestock disease. This goes some way to explaining why collateral kills are tolerated – if protecting bird species were in fact the reason for it collateral kills would not be tolerated – some of our bird species are quite stressed and it wouldn’t take much to tip them over the edge.

              • JC

                When selecting arguments, particuarly one as bias/ and/or emotional as the pragmatic use of toxins, this issue will always be fraught.

                Similarly, perhaps as a comparison ,…. one could consider the recent advice of Peter Gluckmen, re contamination of houses from methamphetamine and attendent issues associated ….

                https://fmacskasy.wordpress.com/2018/07/07/the-legacy-of-a-dismantled-prime-minister-revisited/

                Simiarly, it is useful to take objective advice, (albeit from Wellington) from another objective source …

                i.e. Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, ( Dr Jan Wright), “concluded that not only should 1080 use continue, but that we should use more of it.”

                https://www.pce.parliament.nz/our-work/news-insights/archive/2013/environment-commissioner-welcomes-epa-report-on-the-use-of-1080

                • Stuart Munro

                  Again with the appeals to authority.

                  Show me rigorous sampling – show me costs for proper bait stations and ground teams – show me population data for rats and stoats and 1080 pellets so small they won’t kill tomtits with a body mass of maybe 30 grams.

                  Funnily these are never the arguments that are made, because, like the P contamination, the 1080 campaign is only masquerading as science for PR purposes.

                  • corodale

                    These ground teams of trappers could be post school conscripts living in tents on a UBI to reduce housing demand.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      I certainly feel that such groups, properly trained and supported, would be both better for the environment and have a better quality of life than those who were recently pushed into minimum wage bus driving as part of Wellington’s epic saga of managerial incompetence.

                    • gsays

                      Sorry Bill, (ironically your example has been repeated here, diverse folk overwhelmingly impassioned by 1080, not a lot about CC).

                      Brilliant corodale, inspired thinking.

                      Here is a tune:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uLPYSlgiDlE

                      There is a lack of imagination around this issue.
                      I had a look at your link JC, Dave Hansford’s book, again it seems to stay within a slim paradigm, and immediately dimisses imaginative schemes and minimizes the pain.

                      Why the dickens not do trials on peppering and write the science?

                      Money isn’t the issue, it is a lack of imagination and will.

                  • KJT

                    Show me your evidence against judicious 1080 use.

                    You can’t, can you, because you prefer to ignore any science that doesn’t fit your reckons?

      • JC 6.1.3

        “A group of prominent New Zealand Māori environmentalists and activists have signed onto a statement regarding the use of 1080.”

        http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1809/S00050/maori-environmentalists-and-activists-release-1080-statement.htm

  5. greywarshark 7

    Bill
    I think you made valuable observations. Valuable to me anyway because I have noticed similar things. When it comes to rising for climate it tends to be the middle class who appear to be more interested in the planet, animal welfare, and green matters than in the welfare of ordinary people who are being the aforementioned planet, or the livable parts of it.

    The 1080 protest is the ordinary people who are pushed to the outer and able to supplement income with shooting animals or birds legally. They fear that the country is prepared to give them the Muroroa treatment; we don’t want this experiment near our main population areas but out in sparsely populated boondocks we’ll let it rip. Both sides have a point, as 1080 done carefully can blitz more predators than the native bird life that get a deadly dose. They also say that it doesn’t permanently affect water. But a hunting dog that is affected and dies is a member of the family, and a valuable help to catching feral pigs etc. So ordinary people in the country who have managed on a shoestring feel rightly threatened.

    By the way. Here is a quite good video link about climate change confusion that I came across – potholer54. Top 10 Climate Change Myths.

    • Dennis Frank 7.1

      Yes, an excellent resource for anyone presenting the topic to a savvy, sophisticated, scientifically literate audience! Totally bewildering to 99.9% of voters, of course.

      But where it would be most valuable is a class of science students interested in the topic, with the presenter freezing the video just after each telling point is made so the class can discuss it to clarify confusion and reinforce their comprehension.

      • greywarshark 7.1.1

        Dennis F
        That sort of thing is an absolutely brilliant idea. The speed that new info registers and then is overlayed can make it hard to absorb. I can read the paper and then try to remember just what has seemed important enough to my mind to take and hold. I have been dismayed that so few matters come to mind.

        Television is worse as visual and aural and the speed of images all clash. Speech needs visual reference for me, but discussion would help reinforce the value of the message.

        Students are taught measures to increase retaining info. In this age our educational facilities are not providing us all with a wide understanding of our world, our countryis political system and culture and we are left to pick it up from the media. We have to concentrate on learning those things that will help our specialist education. In our everyday world we need to use similar memory joggers to help us function in an informed way on culture, climate change, current philosophies etc. So we need acquired skills of analysis and critical thinking to identify trends and mindsets which will have negative outcomes. If we don’t understand, recognise the negatives and act to slow or change them they carry on and become mainstream.

        • Dennis Frank 7.1.1.1

          Good that you can see the potential but let’s hope it gets through to younger generations, both teachers & students, who can actually apply it!

          That said, wouldn’t surprise me at all if educational administrators were to forbid it because climate change isn’t in the syllabus & adults are meant to be dealing with it. And clamour from denialist politicians demanding kids be protected from propaganda, huh? 🙄

          • corodale 7.1.1.1.1

            Yes, could they slowly work through such a video during a year of military service. But, just because we and Minister Sage are capable of following the video, still doesn’t solve the challenge of a govt/military/market choosing a which video. Nah, very good.

  6. Pat 8

    curious about the demographics of the two groups…is CC erroneously perceived as a ‘first world’ or middle class problem?

    • Bill 8.1

      If I was working working class – busting my arse between running myself ragged and stressing about a fair number of basics, what am I getting on the TV and whatever else that might make me think “Hang on a minute!” when it comes to AGW?

      I notice the BBC has just come out with (from The Guardian)

      BBC admits ‘we get climate change coverage wrong too often’

      Make of that what you will.

      • Pat 8.1.1

        busy and with perhaps more immediate concerns but that relies too much on stereotyping….agree the MSM is hardly pressing the issue but anyone would have to be living under a rock or deliberately ignoring the issue to be completely unaware.

        It may of course have been an aberration

        • Bill 8.1.1.1

          I don’t think it was an aberration.

          But I’m way too tired to articulate my thoughts on it and sign-post some of the reasons I think lie behind it. Another time.

      • Pat 8.1.2

        “But it adds: “Journalists need to be aware of the guest’s viewpoint and how to challenge it effectively. As with all topics, we must make clear to the audience which organisation the speaker represents, potentially how that group is funded and whether they are speaking with authority from a scientific perspective.” Lawson’s Global Warming Policy Foundation does not disclose its source of funding.”

        Thought that would have been covered in the first semester of journalism…..obviously not for those employed by the BBC

  7. Timeforacupoftea 9

    Oh come on Bill.
    ( Down by The Exchange, there was maybe something like 40 or 50 people and…well, the only demographic that seemed to be missing was the white middle class. )

    Can’t have been the white upperclass surely !

    Maybe it was a rent a mob gang as I noted yesterdayFriday Forest and Bird had a representative at Countdown Andersons Bay Road the same group that Greenpeace use with a very broad North American accent.

    As you know we have few Maori down here too bloody cold plenty of Asian around the Uni.
    We have mainly retired white people.

    Tell me the last time you saw a Prostitute on Dunedin Street Corners and tell me which one.

  8. sumsuch 10

    I love that climate change is not chewable for the media. Is it 15 or 30 years before this ridiculous media culture is chewed by the climate. I really want it to be the latter, for my oldage, but since the facts are ahead of the forecasts …

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    2 days ago
  • Speech to the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs, Pacific Futures: Connections, Identity...
    ***Check against delivery*** Good morning. It is a pleasure to be here, and to have the honour of opening this important conference on behalf of the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. Let us take the opportunity to acknowledge all the people who have helped make today possible, including our special ...
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    2 days ago
  • Police trial new response to high risk events
    Police Minister Stuart Nash says the safety of frontline officers and members of the public will be the focus of a new trial of specialist Police response teams in three of our largest urban centres. Police have this morning released details of an initiative to be trialled in Counties Manukau, ...
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    2 days ago
  • New awards celebrate fisheries sustainability
    The Minister of Fisheries is calling for entries for a new public award to celebrate innovation in our seafood sector. “I have established the Seafood Sustainability Awards to recognise and celebrate those throughout industry, tangata whenua and communities who demonstrate outstanding dedication and innovation towards the sustainability of New Zealand’s ...
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    2 days ago
  • More progress for women and we can do more
    Minister for Women Julie Anne Genter welcomes leaders in the private sector taking action on closing their gender pay gaps to ensure a fairer workplace for all New Zealanders. Ms Genter today launched a new report, Addressing the gender pay gap and driving women’s representation in senior leadership, from the Champions for ...
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    2 days ago
  • Proposals to curb environmental damage help our coasts and the oceans
    Government Ministers today welcomed the release of a marine environment report highlighting the four key issues affecting our oceans, estuaries and coastlines.  The release underlines the importance of government proposals to combat climate pollution, ensure clean freshwater, protect biodiversity, make land use more sustainable, and reduce waste and plastic.    Environment ...
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    3 days ago
  • New mental health facility for Waikato
    The Government has approved funding for a new acute mental health facility for Waikato which will provide better care and support to people with mental health and addiction issues. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Health Minister Dr David Clark announced the $100 million project to replace the aging Henry Rongomau ...
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    3 days ago
  • 500 new te reo Māori champions in our classrooms
    The Government is making progress on its goal to integrate te reo Māori into education by 2025, with over 500 teachers and support staff already graduating from Te Ahu o te Reo Māori,  Associate Education Minister Kelvin Davis announced today. Kelvin Davis made the announcement at an awards ceremony in Waikanae today, for ...
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    3 days ago
  • Minister James Shaw welcomes 2018 Census first release
    Statistics Minister James Shaw has welcomed the first release of 2018 Census data. The first release of data today, 23 September, includes key data on population, regional growth, the number of homes and the size of different ethnic groups in New Zealand. Data from the 2018 Census will support the ...
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    3 days ago
  • Driving transparency, ethics and accountability in government use of algorithms
    Minister for Statistics James Shaw today announced a public consultation on a proposed algorithm charter for government agencies. The charter has been developed by the Government Chief Data Steward in response to growing calls for more transparency in government use of data. Computer algorithms – procedures or formulas for solving ...
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    3 days ago
  • New Zealand and the Netherlands working together on climate change
    Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor, Climate Change Minister James Shaw and visiting Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte co-hosted a business roundtable in Auckland this morning focused on working together to address climate change.  “The Netherlands is an important partner for New Zealand. We share a strong agricultural history. Sustainable agribusiness and ...
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    3 days ago
  • Protecting fairness for workers and businesses
    The Government is taking action to build an inclusive economy where more of us receive our fair share at work and businesses can compete on great products and services, not undercutting wages and conditions, Immigration and Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Iain Lees-Galloway says. Two consultations launched today seek feedback ...
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    3 days ago
  • Indigenous Freshwater Fish Bill Passes
    The future for New Zealand’s threatened indigenous freshwater fish looks brighter with the passing of the Conservation (Indigenous Freshwater Fish) Amendment Bill in Parliament today said Minister of Conservation, Eugenie Sage. “Until now, our freshwater fish legislation has been 20 years out of date. We have lacked effective tools to ...
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    4 days ago
  • Kiwis to take part in world’s biggest earthquake drill
    At 1.30pm tomorrow, hundreds of thousands of Kiwis will join about 65 million people around the globe in ShakeOut, the world’s biggest earthquake drill. The annual drill is to remind people of the right action to take during an earthquake which is to Drop, Cover, Hold, and to practise their ...
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    4 days ago
  • Rising wages and low inflation supporting Kiwis
    Kiwis are benefiting from higher wage growth and low inflation under the Coalition Government. Stats NZ data out today shows the rise in the cost of living remains low, as annual Consumers Price Index (CPI) inflation fell to 1.5% in September from 1.7% in June. “The low inflation comes as ...
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    4 days ago
  • NZ economy strong amid global headwinds
    New Zealand’s economic strength and resilience has been recognised in a major update on the state of the global economy. The IMF’s latest World Economic Outlook released overnight shows a reduced global growth forecast over the next two years as issues like the US-China trade war and Brexit take hold. ...
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    4 days ago
  • Keeping New Zealanders safer with better counter-terrorism laws
    Justice Minister Andrew Little has today introduced a new Bill to prevent terrorism and support the de-radicalisation of New Zealanders returning from overseas. The Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Bill gives the New Zealand Police the ability to apply to the High Court to impose control orders on New Zealanders who ...
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    4 days ago
  • Improved succession and dispute resolution core of Ture Whenua changes
    A Bill that proposes targeted changes to simplify the processes for Māori land owners when engaging with the Māori Land Court has had its First Reading today. “The approach taken by the Government is to ensure that the protection of Māori land remains a priority as we seek to improve ...
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    4 days ago
  • Speech to CTU Biennial Conference
    Let me first thank all the new unionists and members in the room. There is nothing more important to improving people’s working lives than people making the decision to care, to get on board and help, to take up the reins and get involved. Congratulations to you. You bring the ...
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    4 days ago
  • Minister ensures continued Whenuapai flight operations
    Minister of Defence Ron Mark has signed a certificate exempting the activity of engine testing at Whenuapai Airbase from the Resource Management Act 1991. The Act gives the Minister of Defence the power to exempt activities for the purposes of national security.  The certificate will mean the recent Environment Court ...
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    4 days ago
  • NZ joins Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson has announced New Zealand will join the Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action while attending APEC meetings in Chile. The objective of the 39 member Coalition is to share information and promote action to tackle climate change. It was formed in April this year, in ...
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    4 days ago
  • Feedback Sought – Section 71 – Lyttelton Parking
    Feedback sought– Lyttelton commercial zone parking  The Associate Minister for Greater Christchurch Regeneration, Poto Williams, is seeking feedback on a proposal to remove on-site car parking requirements for new developments in the Lyttelton commercial zone.  The proposal, by Christchurch City Council, asks that powers under section 71 of the Greater ...
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    5 days ago
  • Feedback Sought – Section 71 – Hagley Oval
    Hon Minister Poto Williams Associate Minister for Greater Christchurch Regeneration   MEDIA STATEMENT       Tuesday 15 October 2019 Feedback sought – Hagley Oval The Associate Minister for Greater Christchurch Regeneration, Poto Williams, is seeking feedback on a proposal about Hagley Oval. The proposal was developed by Regenerate Christchurch ...
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    5 days ago
  • CTU speech – DPM
    Ladies and gentlemen, NZCTU President Richard Wagstaff, members of respective unions – thank you for the invitation to speak to you today. This might be preaching to the choir, but the importance of trade unions in New Zealand’s historical arch is difficult to understate. And it is my belief that ...
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    5 days ago
  • Police Association Annual Conference
    "Let’s start by acknowledging that it has been a huge year. " Police Association Annual Conference James Cook Grand Chancellor Hotel Wellington Nau mai, haere mai. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, ka nui te mihi, ki a koutou katoa. President of the Police Association, Chris Cahill; Members of the Association and ...
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    5 days ago
  • New Zealand announces a further P-3 deployment in support of UN sanctions
    Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters and Minister of Defence Ron Mark have announced the New Zealand Government’s decision to again deploy a Royal New Zealand Air Force P-3K2 (P-3) maritime patrol aircraft to support the implementation of United Nations Security Council (UNSC) resolutions imposing sanctions against North Korea. New ...
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    5 days ago
  • New Zealand deeply concerned at developments in north-east Syria
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters says New Zealand continues to have serious concerns for peace and stability in north-east Syria. “Recent reports that hundreds of ISIS-affiliated families have fled from a camp are deeply concerning from a humanitarian and security perspective”, Mr Peters says. “While we acknowledge Turkey’s domestic security ...
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    5 days ago
  • Government on high alert for stink bugs
    Biosecurity Minister Damien O’Connor is warning travelling Kiwis to be vigilant as the high-season for the crop-eating brown marmorated stink bug (BMSB) is under way. “We’re on high alert to stop BMSB arriving in NZ. The high season runs until April 30 and we’ve strengthened our measures to stop stink ...
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    5 days ago
  • Better protections for students in halls of residence
    The Government is moving swiftly to change the law to improve the welfare and pastoral care of students living in university halls of residence and other tertiary hostels. Cabinet has agreed to several changes, including creating a new mandatory Code of Practice that sets out the duty of pastoral care ...
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    6 days ago
  • New trapping guide for community and expert trappers alike
    The Minister for Conservation Eugenie Sage has launched a new comprehensive trapping guide for community trappers to help them protect our native birds, plants and other wildlife, at Zealandia in Wellington today. ‘A practical guide to trapping’, has been developed by the Department of Conservation (DOC), and was launched during ...
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    6 days ago
  • Widening Access to Contraceptives Welcomed
    Associate Health Minister Julie Anne Genter welcomes PHARMAC’s move to improve access to long-acting reversible contraception (LARCs). PHARMAC has today announced it will fund the full cost of Mirena and Jaydess for anyone seeking long term contraception, lifting previous restrictions on access to Mirena. “I welcome women having greater choices ...
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    6 days ago
  • Major upgrade for Taranaki Base Hospital
    The Government has approved the next stage of a major redevelopment of Taranaki Base Hospital, which will deliver new and improved facilities for patients. Health Minister Dr David Clark has announced details of a $300 million dollar project to build a new East Wing at the New Plymouth hospital. It ...
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    1 week ago
  • Extra support for rural families
    Extra funding will allow Rural Support Trusts to help farming families, says Minister for Rural Communities and Agriculture Damien O’Connor. “I know that rural families are worried about some of the challenges facing them, including the ongoing uncertainty created by the Mycoplasma bovis outbreak. “Those concerns sit alongside ongoing worries ...
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    1 week ago
  • Howard Leaque Beekeeper programme graduation
    Thank you for the opportunity to be here to present certificates to the 16 graduates who have completed a beekeeping course delivered by the Howard League.  Let us start by acknowledging Auckland Prison’s Deputy Prison Director Tom Sherlock, and Acting Assistant Regional Commissioner of Corrections Northern Region Scott Walker - ...
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    1 week ago
  • Finance Minister to attend APEC meetings
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson leaves this weekend to attend the APEC Finance Ministers meeting in Santiago, Chile. Discussions between APEC Finance Ministers at the meeting will include the effects of the current global economic uncertainty, risks for APEC economies and sustainable development of the region. While at APEC Grant Robertson ...
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    1 week ago
  • Pacific languages are a source of strength, they ground us and build confidence
    The Minister for Pacific Peoples Aupito William Sio says for Pacific people, language can be a source of strength. It can help ground us and give us confidence. When we speak them, our languages provide us with an immediate and intimate access to our identity and our story - and ...
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    1 week ago
  • Major boost to support disabled people in sport and recreation
    The Coalition Government has announced an action plan to improve the wellbeing of disabled New Zealanders by addressing inequalities in play, active recreation and sport. The initiative includes training to develop a workforce that understands the needs of children and young people with a range of impairments, advocacy for fit ...
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    1 week ago
  • More prefab homes to be built as red tape cut
    The construction sector is being freed up to allow more homes to be built more quickly as the Government cuts through some of the red tape of the Building Act.  “Every New Zealander deserves a warm, dry, safe home and old inefficiencies in the Building Act make building slow and ...
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    1 week ago