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Are you Newstralian?

Written By: - Date published: 1:22 pm, October 16th, 2015 - 110 comments
Categories: australian politics - Tags:

So John Key and the new Oz PM are having a chat today and good ol’ JK will be mentioning the issue of “New Zealanders” who are being detained for deportation after a prison sentence.  People who are being detained in police stations without exercise or dark or quiet for days on end; detained on Christmas Island away from lawyers or family or support.  It’s not really western or first-world country stuff, from our “brothers”.

2-300 are detained, and dawn raids are netting more as up to 1000 people who have had sentences of a year or more are rounded up.

But a lot of these people no longer have any real connection to NZ.

This re-highlights a lot of the unfair treatment our “brothers” across the ditch are dishing out to “New Zealanders”.  People whose families moved over when they were toddlers, who have no family here, and now can’t get any state support when they’re in difficulty, and should they go to prison risk being sent to a country they don’t know, away from family and friends.  First you have to pay for hospitals, and end up on the streets when you lose your job, then you get expelled from your home country if you do anything wrong.

So we should be proposing a way of recognising that your birth country is no longer your home country when we have this freedom of movement:

If you’re an adult and have spent more than half your life on the other side of the Tasman, you should pretty much get citizenship as of right.

How can that not be fair?

110 comments on “Are you Newstralian?”

  1. New Zealand also deports long term residents who lack citizenship. Generally back to the Islands but also to other places. Citizenship fees are beyond the reach of many.

    • Lanthanide 1.1

      When you say “long term residents” are you including those who hold Permanent Resident status in NZ?

      If not, who are you referring to?

      • Westiechick 1.1.1

        Yes. You are eligible for deportation for 10 years after becoming a resident. Many spend years here before becoming a resident but the clock starts ticking only when residence granted. Its all in the Immigration Act.

        • Craig H

          After 5 years after residence, deportation can only happen where people are sentenced to at least 5 years imprisonment. Not that it never happens, but it’s not common, and it’s much narrower than the Australian laws.

          • Ad

            You have to try pretty damn hard to get thrown out of New Zealand.
            I heard of a case where a recent migrant had five separate convictions for breaching a on-molesation order, and still didn’t get chucked out.

  2. Bea Brown 2

    Don’t like the thought of these guys coming back to NZ.
    Most of them seem to have convictions for serious assaults, burglary etc.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1

      Do you support them going to death camps?

    • Huginn 2.2

      Many of these people were imprisoned for short sentences for relatively minor convictions that add up to a year. It’s the sort of thing that happens to people who are outside the system, like kids of New Zealanders living in Australia, and who have no access to job training etc, no safety net.

      Many of the people who are being rounded up will have put this behind them years ago, and sorted themselves out.

  3. alwyn 3

    Why do you try and hold John Key as being in any way responsible for how Australia treats New Zealand citizens in their country?

    Australians do not, and have not for many years, had any special regard for New Zealand or New Zealanders. I suspect the last Australian PM to have any kind views about us was Robert Menzies and that was 50 years ago. The average Australian, in my experience, has no interest at all in New Zealand, or any knowledge of our country. I speak as someone who lived and worked there between 1989 and 1996. I was in Melbourne. My brother was at the same time living and working in Sydney. He says that people there were if anything worse.

    Just as an example I could ask a relatively well educated Australian what was the capital of New Zealand. Four out of five would say Auckland. The one who said Wellington would have no idea if you then asked which island it was on.
    They simply didn’t know and didn’t care. A New Zealand person was also the continued butt of insulting remarks. After 10,000 times you get more than a little sick of sheep “jokes” as they seemed to believe they were. Both my brother and I finally left and returned home. We were sick of them.

    The current situation is merely the end of a very long string of anti-New Zealand actions. It was, I think, 1981 when Australia insisted that we had to have passports to go there. In the early 1990’s, under Keating, Australia unilaterally cancelled an aviation agreement with New Zealand. There was no discussion. The Australian Government of the time simply wanted to beef up Qantas so they could sell it. NZ be damned.

    The 2001 “agreement” between NZ and Australia was simply the last straw. Unfortunately the then New Zealand Government, who could do absolutely nothing about it, claimed that it was a “win/win”, as I believe Goff claimed at the time.
    What they should have done is tell anyone thinking of moving to Australia the truth. You were never going to be able to become an Australian citizen if you went there under the “special visa” that was all you were now going to get. You could go there as a “guest worker” but that was all you would ever be. Our Government should have said, loudly and clearly, that if you wanted to move there permanently that you should make sure that you qualified for a standard visa like a person from any other country.
    They didn’t and people living there now are just discovering that fact.

    It is time we got over it. There is no “Anzac Spirit” or “mateship” any more. There hasn’t been for the lifetime of anyone after the baby boomers, and it isn’t going to come back.

    There was a column by Karl du Fresne in this morning’s Dom/Post. I cannot find it, as yet on line. If you have access to the hard copy I recommend it.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1

      John Key is responsible for how he chooses to respond to Australian human rights abuse. If he thinks a matey chat is the right course, or whether he thinks that expelling the Australian ambassador so long as the abuse camps are still in operation.

      His call. No doubt he’ll address the issue with an eye to his personal popularity. Meanwhile, you’re shilling for human rights abuse. That’s your call too.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.2

      Why do you try and hold John Key as being in any way responsible for how Australia treats New Zealand citizens in their country?

      It is time we got over it. There is no “Anzac Spirit” or “mateship” any more.

      Yep. How Australia acts is up to Australia. How we respond to that is up to us. My suggestion is that we mirror the laws that they’re putting in place for Australians and treat Australians how they treat us. I also think we should drop the pretence of the being ‘mateship’. Personally, I don’t think that it’s ever been there.

      • weston 3.2.1

        pretty much right draco and as an american clone hardly supprizing they look down on us and are not particularly friendly ..from afar at least tho no doubt when the meeting takes place between key and the ausie itll be handshakes and bonhomie in spades but the ausie will make sure key knows whos boss

      • AB 3.2.2

        I’ve always thought the Australian bolt hole has been a safety valve that prevents the widespread social unrest that would be the proper response to neoliberalism.
        Can’t say I’d be too unhappy if that bolt hole was gone.

        And if Australia loses food security in 50 years time due to climate change making some of their existing agriculture marginal, then NZ had better watch out

    • Hi alwyn,

      An interesting comment that puts some historical perspective on the issue and I certainly agree that there is no ‘special relationship’ as such (and less and less even of the pretence of one).

      But, for me, that makes the argument stronger for making a principled stand.

      Of course, we do have an economic dependency upon Australia (e.g., by far the majority of our tourists) so presumably the ‘trade before human rights’ principle of political action will kick in.

  4. Bea Brown 4

    Death camps?
    Steady on.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1

      Just checking to see whether your moral compass is completely broken.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.2

      They’re in prison in atrocious conditions that could result in death and so Death Camps is a fit description.

      • Bob 4.2.1

        They are also free to leave those camps to go back to the country where they are citizens at any stage, so Death Camps is an extremely insensitive and unhelpful terminology to use.
        By your logic, a swimming complex is a ‘death complex’ because the conditions ‘could’ result in death, even if no-one has ever drowned there. Pathetic.

        • lprent

          Ah no they are not. Clearly you are being ignorant again.

          The deportation process is usually long and involved even if the person being deported is not fighting it.

          In the aussie camps at present there are kiwis who aren’t opposing deportation who have been there more than 6 months. Being born in Australia to kiwi residents there, they don’t have any passports. Consequently they can’t enter NZ or any other country. The same applies to children of other residents who live in aussie.

          Similarly there are people in the camps whose passports and citizenship has been removed by their country of origin.

          Perhaps you should learn to find things out before making a complete idiot of yourself.

          • RedLogix

            This has been a real sleeper issue that’s been slowly accumulating since Howards reprehensible rule changes in 2001. (On openly racist grounds I might add – he was concerned about Fijian Indians using NZ residency as a leapfrog into Aus).

            No-one has done any research I’m aware of and the numbers are really vague – but I think you might be be surprised at how many people are becoming effectively stateless under these rules.

          • Craig H

            If someone turns up at the NZ border without a passport, but the Border staff can work out that the person is an NZ citizen using other means, they must be granted entry permission.

            • lprent

              Yes. If they were born here or they held a passport. If they were born offshore and were never GRANTED NZ Citizenship, then they aren’t NZ citizens. Haven’t you ignorant fools ever read the rules?

              I put linked of the rules down for srylands who appears to be as stupid, lazy, and ignorant as you are. He can’t use google as well.

          • srylands

            “Being born in Australia to kiwi residents there, they don’t have any passports. ”
            Many people do not have “passports”. They simply need to apply for one. Your comment infers that these people are stateless. They are not – they are New Zealand citizens.

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          free to leave those camps

          No means of earning, but the sky fairy will magic you a plane ticket?

          You seem more concerned about hyperbole than you do the human rights abuse. Am I wrong?

  5. Bob 5

    Agree about the people with no real connection with NZ, but there is also a bit of media beat-up going on with this story.
    Every detained person is free to leave whenever they like as long as it is back to the country where they are a citizen. You say, “If you’re an adult and have spent more than half your life on the other side of the Tasman, you should pretty much get citizenship as of right”, but unless people enter Australia after applying for citizenship, the arrangement that allows those people to set up in Australia are the 1994 regulations, under which New Zealand citizens entering Australia are treated as having applied for a temporary entry visa.
    As shit as the situation is, if people think they can move to Australia without obtaining citizenship and be treated as anything more than temporary migrants, they are wrong.

    Here is an article from a couple of years ago on the way the Aussies look at the relationship: http://theconversation.com/tougher-policy-needed-for-new-zealanders-wanting-to-work-in-australia-12007

    • RedLogix 5.1

      I wouldn’t mind so much if they didn’t treat me as a permanent resident for tax purposes – and a temporary one for all others.

      John Key also introduced regulation very early on in his govt that meant unless you returned to NZ for a week every three years, your right to vote in NZ elections is suspended. If you no longer have family in NZ and have settled in Australia, you can pretty easily finish up disenfranchised. Only a few ten’s of thousands of Newstralians voted in recent elections – and it’s not an especially easy process. I thought I could do it online, but there are hurdles to leap through – and I finished up missing the deadline last time.

      There are about 625,000 NZ’ers living in Australia on this SCV444 visa and as every year goes by, the number who are effectively becoming stateless guest workers with very diminished legal and citizenship rights grows larger.

      Just saying ‘they can always bugger off back home’ is neither practical on that scale – and a rather ugly sentiment when you think about it.

      Overall Kiwis in Australia are more likely to be employed, earn more on average, and are less likely to be imprisoned. We contribute strongly as a group – but have been erased politically by governments on both sides of the Tasman.

      • alwyn 5.1.1

        “John Key also introduced regulation very early on in his govt that meant unless you returned to NZ for a week every three years, your right to vote in NZ elections is suspended”.
        I thought that the 3 year rule applied when I was living there, 25 years ago. Are you sure that it only dates from Key’s time?
        Personally I thought it was quite reasonable. I also thought it was reasonable that I couldn’t vote there if I was not a citizen and I think it is something we should bring in here. By the time I was eligible to become a citizen I was determined that I was coming home so I never applied.

        • RedLogix

          I could be wrong; I was under the impression Key had changed something about the rule.

          Personally I would argue that if I’m still a citizen of NZ, and I’m still eligible to live here at any time in the future, then I have an interest in voting.

        • RedLogix

          I did a wee google and found this:

          Kiwis in OZ Voting in NZ Elections
          From: enrol@elections.org.nz [mailto:enrol@elections.org.nz]
          Sent: Monday, 6 May 2013 8:35 AM
          Subject: General Inquiry
          Dear Christel,

          Thank you for your email .

          To be able to vote overseas you need to have lived in New Zealand for a period of 1 year continuously, you need to have New Zealand permanent residency, you need to have resided at an address for a period of one month in New Zealand which you will have listed as your voting address and you need to be over the age of 18.

          After you have lived overseas for 3 years you will be removed from the electoral roll until you return to New Zealand and reside at an address for a month or more. If you return within the 3 years then the 3 year period will start again and you will be able to vote for another 3 years.

          If you need assistance please email us again or call us on 0800 36 76 56.
          Yours faithfully
          Enrolment Services
          Electoral Commission

          Maybe the period you had to return for was extended to a month; whereas before the criterion was “return at any time”. That’s just long enough to rule out most visits home while on leave or FIFO.

          • alwyn

            What they say is what I thought the rules were when I lived in Australia.
            If you were away for three years with no return visits they took you off the roll.
            The thing you found isn’t any different from what had been my understanding of the matter in the early 90’s.
            They aren’t talking about having to be back for a month if it is within three years of having left. They are saying that after you have been away for more than three years you have to come back for a month or more to go back on the roll. The bit about residing for a month or more is in a sentence that starts “After you have lived overseas for 3 years …”.
            On the other hand this may only be the current situation and my memory of what the situation was when I lived there could be wrong. Does anyone know what the situation really was in the 90’s?

  6. James Growley 6

    I can understand the Aussies wanting to get rid of criminals that are not their citizens, after all they already have enough of the home grown variety. What I can’t understand is why they round them up and incarcerate them for long periods of time in “detention centres” prior to their removal. Surely, it would be more expedient and cost effective just to put them on a plane when they find them.

    • RedLogix 6.1

      In many cases there is absolutely nowhere for them to go when they step off the plane in NZ. They simply have no connection anymore to the country that is named on their passport. Especially if they came to Australia relatively young.

      And the numbers are growing rapidly because the criteria was tightened up this year by Abbott govt – which means a relatively modest accumulation of quite minor offenses can result in the pretty drastic penalty of deportation.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 6.2

      It must be nice to be so completely ignorant of the drivers of crime.

      Right wing trash create the social conditions that foster crime then victimise those who succumb. Repugnant.

      • The lost sheep 6.2.1

        ‘The drivers of crime’

        The people who actually commit crimes being mere passengers strapped helplessly into the seat and completely unable to alter the course of the vehicle.

        • McFlock

          Actually, thinking of the occasional 12 or 13 year old kid locked up for their part in a murder or manslaughter, sometimes that’s not a bad description. A bit like throwing them out of a plane without a parachute and blaming them when they hit someone or damage property when they land.

          But of course there’s generally a continuum of responsibility for one’s actions, not the binary all/none that your tory brain is only capable of grasping.

          Funnily enough it’s usually the ones with the most privilege and most personal responsibility for their actions who are deemed “nonviolent” and “pay reparation” (normally a fraction of what they stole from ordinary kiwis) before sentencing, so don’t even have to move their Egyptian cotton shirtcuffs out of the way before they get their slap on the wrist with a wet taxi chit (bus ticket??? how brutish)

          • The lost sheep

            But of course there’s generally a continuum of responsibility for one’s actions, not the binary all/none that your tory brain is only capable of grasping.

            I agree completely McFlock.
            Your last paragraph seems a bit anecdotal though.

            • McFlock

              Doug Graham and the ilk spring to mind.

              But if you were capable of non-binary thinking, why did you refer to people who commit crime as passengers, even sarcastically? A single crime can have many “drivers”.

              • The lost sheep

                The ‘sarc’ was meant to indicate that i was parodying OAB’s implication that the cause of crime was simplistic i.e. it was all caused by right wing trash.

                • McFlock

                  Well, that was the inference you took, anyway. Simplistic. I guess you’re not as sophisticated as you thought.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Dehumanising labels aren’t so flash when you’re the one wearing them. I look forward to your bailing the likes of Tory and Naki Man up when they characterise prison inmates in similar terms.

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          That’s a seductive narrative, Sheep.

          In what sense is it anything other than the prologue to a vengeance fantasy? Do you want effective penal policy or not?

          • The lost sheep

            That depends on whether or not you believe that people who were brought up in the grip of the conditions that are the ‘drivers of crime’ have sufficient self awareness and free will to be to some degree conscious of the implications of their actions on victims, and if so, whether it follows that to some extent they then have a ‘personal responsibility’ for their criminal actions OAB?

            Or if it’s just a matter of ensuring a caring Social Democratic Government is in place for a sufficient period of time, and crime will cease to occur?

        • Puddleglum

          The people who actually commit crimes being mere passengers strapped helplessly into the seat and completely unable to alter the course of the vehicle.

          I would really like someone – of left or right persuasion – to tell me how people make ‘choices’ in any sense that is useful in the context of a political discussion.

          I have never heard a convincing argument that showed why we should conduct policy (e.g., in terms of rewards and punishments) based on so-called responsible versus irresponsible choices.

          Such arguments never seem able to answer the very obvious question: What causes one person to make responsible choices and another to make irresponsible choices?

          The answer to that question seems to me always to have to end up identifying some process over which the individual had no control (e.g., genes, parenting, past environmental ‘contingencies’, etc.).

          Therefore it seems straightforwardly immoral to base policy on so-called free ‘choices’ between responsible and irresponsible options.

          The only morally defensible goal of policy is therefore to arrange environments so that ‘better’ actions are generated by the environment.

          The things we say and do are just expressions and summations of all that is happening within and around us. They are not free acts of agents – ever.

          It might be convenient, for certain purposes, to pretend that they are – but they aren’t. How could they be?

          Just to clarify, the point of the above isn’t simply to rehearse a free will versus determinism argument. It’s about what’s acceptable justification, in basic moral terms, for policy positions.

          Saying that only people who make irresponsible choices will fall foul of policy ‘X’ just doesn’t cut that mustard.

          • One Anonymous Bloke

            But, but, but, Labour did it too, and anyway you hurt my amygdala.

          • RedLogix

            I always rather like the metaphor which compared the development of a human, with the arc of development demonstrated by society.

            A very young child when confronted with injustice might run to mum for protection, or lash out in fright depending on personality and circumstance.

            Similarly most societies have treated criminals accordingly, they’ve sought to make the problem go away by exile and long imprisonment – or vengeance through harsh or capital punishment.

            With adolescence comes a rudimentary insight that perhaps segregating criminals to protect the innocent would be a desirable net gain – and the idea of custody for the purpose of protecting society takes root.

            The inevitable logic which follows on from this is that either you have to keep criminals locked up forever – or on their eventual release they must be so changed as to pose a lessor risk of reoffending, and thus the idea of rehabilitation.

            From here it is not much of a leap from the idea of our collective responsibility to rehabilitate the criminal – to that of reforming the society from whence he/she arose and pre-determines much, maybe all, of our inclinations and preferences.

            But from where do these inclinations and habits come from? For it is what we believe that powerfully shapes our perception of right and wrong, and from this we distill the abstractions of morality. Yet despite this formative crucible we are all subjected to – we cannot escape the idea that the individual is nonetheless responsible for their own ethical expression and agency.

            The force and character of our ethical life is driven by the power of conscience. From this vantage point we might peer into an ideal future and suppose that the most potent means to prevent crime would be if all peoples were so refined as the mere contemplation of a crime brings such shame and sorrow to the heart – that this might be both effective prevention and sufficient punishment at the same time.

            But no stage of this journey erases the import of what has gone before. Each stage is an accumulated layer that builds the edifice of conscience and humility. Seen in this light, the paradox of free will and determinism are nothing more than different views of the same complex structure, in which choices and consequences weave together in a mutual dance of personal responsibility and collective policy.

            Or as OAB might put it – please stop hurting my amygdala.

            PS: Brilliant http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2015/oct/16/goodbye-peanut#comments

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              The force and character of our ethical life is driven by the power of conscience…


              The only morally defensible goal of policy is therefore to arrange environments so that ‘better’ actions are generated by the environment.


              You guys are more-or-less on the same page, “conscience” being affected by that environment PG mentioned.

          • The lost sheep

            It’s about what’s acceptable justification, in basic moral terms, for policy positions.

            Can’t the question/s you pose be answered with the relatively simple proposition that ‘policy’ is not an all encompassing bubble that both causes and explains all individual or collective choices?
            As RL so eloquently posits below… “free will and determinism are nothing more than different views of the same complex structure, in which choices and consequences weave together in a mutual dance of personal responsibility and collective policy.”

            So if you disagree with ‘the mutual dance’ and adhere to ‘determinism’, then your ‘justification for policy positions’ is that the policy you implement will be ‘responsible’ for all the individual and collective outcomes within the human sphere your policy encompasses.
            So while your intended outcomes are your justification for policy, you accept that your policy will also be responsible for undesirable or unintended outcomes.

            But if you believe in the ‘mutual dance of personal responsibility and collective policy’, your intended outcomes will still be your justification, but you will believe you must take into account the ways free will manifests and how that impacts on the outcomes your policy is attempting to achieve.
            And it follows that collective policy not just justifies, but requires you must respond to the actions of free will that undermine policy. If such a response is disadvantageous to individuals or groups exercising free will in a particular way, your intended collective policy outcomes are your justification, and both the individual and policy may bear some degree of responsibility for those consequences?

            I’m not saying anything new obviously. These are the classic political divides.
            But I do find it a pity that here on TS debate usually gets shouted down by dogmatic ‘Deterministic’ ideologues whenever a commenter dares to introduce any suggestion of the ‘mutual dance’. IMO debate here would be so much more interesting if we could just occasionally have a sensible discussion that actually accepted the idea that it takes two to Tango.

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              The problems caused by right wing penal dribble occur because you indulge vengeance fantasies rather than solutions.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                It’s the real life manifestation of the following exchange between Dr. Melfi and Tony Soprano…

                Dr. Melfi – I’m interested in why you feel punishing this man falls upon you.

                Tony Soprano – Well, it sure doesn’t fall upon you.

                Dr. Melfi – What do you mean?

                Tony Soprano – What would you do? You’d call the cops, who’d get some judge who’d give him psychiatric counseling. So maybe he could talk about his unhappy childhood and we could have sympathy for the fuck cause he’s the real victim here, right?

                Soprano seeks to make himself feel better about coach Hauser’s crimes. That’s the essence of right wing penal policy.

                • The lost sheep

                  What part of my comment implies a vengeance fantasy OAB?

                  Or are you just spouting complete shit again rather than genuinely tackle a complex matter in a honest way?

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    The object of my criticism is right wing penal policy. As I already stated, I’m not interested in the things you believe, no matter how hard you believe them.

                    • The lost sheep

                      No. That’s just a bullshit gutless answer.

                      You accused me of indulging in vengeance fantasies.
                      So please either clarify your accusation, or withdraw it…?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      1. Right wing ‘personal responsibility’ does not exist.
                      2. It is in fact a means by which right wingers blame poor people for poverty, criminals for the crime rate, etc.
                      3. Right wing penal policy is an extension of this: “get tough (as though any of you are ‘tough’ – what a joke) on crime” – “criminal scum”, “ferals”, “low-life”; don’t pretend you are a stranger to this rhetoric.
                      4. “They” ‘deserve’ it. That’s the not-so-subtle subtext, eh. Vengeance.

                      You’re more polite than that, and yet you assert that society must “respond to the actions of free will that undermine policy.” Poor people have the “free will” to not make the “bad choices” that Dear Leader waffles about, for example. Puddleglum’s comment debunks that dogma.

                    • The lost sheep

                      You’re more polite than that
                      It’s a bit more than that OAB. I don’t actually hold any of the simplistic views you suggest.
                      Never met many at all who do in fact. Most people I know believe in some version of the ‘mutual dance’ that RL has outlined. I do understand though that it would threaten your worldview to accept that is the case.

                      yet you assert that society must “respond to the actions of free will that undermine policy.” Poor people have the “free will” to not make the “bad choices”

                      You seem to have the very strange belief that free will and responsibility are exclusively limited to the rich, and you also seem to assume that I am talking purely about a response to the actions of the ‘poor’.
                      I am not of course. I believe we all have free will to some varying degree, and therefore to some varying degree do bear a personal responsibility for the actions we choose to make.
                      Take for example a Company Director that deliberately chooses to avoid tax, knowing very well that Tax policy is a key mechanism for ensuring the collective well being.
                      Do you think that society should respond to that Directors actions OAB? And that the response should involve some form of ‘punishment’ and that the Director would ‘deserve it’?
                      Of course you do, because you have expressed such opinions many times.

                      So what about the ‘poor’ person who deliberately chooses to steal from another poor person, knowing very well of the collective policy that forbids such actions and the effect it will have on the victim?
                      Society should not respond to their actions OAB? They should not be ‘punished’ because they do not ‘deserve it’?

                      If you believe that, I suggest it’s you that has the problem with vengeance fantasies!

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      That would be a strange belief indeed, requiring me to ignore all evidence to the contrary. I’m curious as to how you imagine I hold it.

                      “Free will and responsibility”, in the sense you’re asserting, do not exist.

                      This isn’t a matter of belief: in fact it goes against my every instinct and I don’t want to believe it at all: it’s just the inescapable conclusion presented by the evidence, from neuro-biology on down.

                      I’m glad you mentioned the company director, though: have a look at the disparity between sentences handed down to white collar criminals and those handed down to more productive members of society. The manifest bias is an illustration of the destructive effects of right wing drivel.

                      Please make a vague attempt to re-read my arguments paying attention to the things I’m saying rather than spilling your own interpretations all over them.

                      Edit: perhaps you disagree with my second paragraph. Link to evidence or don’t bother.

    • weston 6.3

      beacause they can would surely be the answer to that question Its just the ordinary garden variety of facism rearing its ugly head isnt it ?

  7. dv 7

    – which means a relatively modest accumulation of quite minor offenses can result in the pretty drastic penalty of deportation.

    Wasn’t that how Australia was settled 150 years ago?

  8. Bea Brown 8

    We have known about our status in Australia since Helen Clark signed the agreement. NZers need to find out the rules and not whinge when they get caught breaking them.
    Many of these people possibly pre-date that agreement but they have offended more than once and often seriously.
    We make a fuss about a singer’s violent offences against women but seem to be giving these guys a huge amount of sympathy when, in fact, they are the authors of their own misfortune.
    Yes I know there’s a lot of blah de blah but why on earth is Labour going in to bat for them? Kelvin Davis was doing well on Serco but now seems to have lost the plot.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 8.1

      Another lawnorder hypocrite who wants to relitigate the outcome of WWII.

    • Huginn 8.2

      Many of them are not serious offenders.

      New Zealand kids who grew up in Australia can’t get into further education or job training after they leave school. There’s no safety net for them. If there was trouble at home eg sick parents themselves out of the system, then they may have committed crimes like burglary to feed themselves.

      They may have put it behind them & straightened up years ago – but they’re still going to be rounded up & put in detention camps.

    • weston 8.3

      ever heard the saying there but for the grace of god bea ?i doubt these prisoners are monsters for having spent a year or so in prison and would bet that were you to meet any of them would probably find them quite normal actually a lot like you or i and the underlining issue is theyve done there time and deserve to be free as they would be in a non dysfunctional law respecting civilized country !!

  9. Huginn 9

    It’s about time we reviewed the entire agreement with Australia.

    It was written up a long time ago and we should be asking whether it’s still fit for purpose.

  10. srylands 10

    ” If there was trouble at home eg sick parents themselves out of the system, then they may have committed crimes like burglary to feed themselves.

    They may have put it behind them & straightened up years ago – but they’re still going to be rounded up & put in detention camps.”

    You are simply making shit up. You have no data on the offending profile of the New Zealanders currently being detained in Australia.
    However, many of them would have arrived in New Zealand well before 2001. They should have applied for Australian citizenship. For those that went there after 2001, they knew that they would never be granted Australian citizenship.

    You need to remember that the current arrangements with Australia were Helen Clark’s idea. The alternative was to keep paying an ever mounting bill to the Australians for social welfare. The Australians sought to renogotiate that arrangement. This was the result.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 10.1

      You need to remember that people here can remember what was Helen Clark’s idea. Scum like you advised right wing nut jobs in Aussie to get votes by playing at tough guys.

      Wear it, S Rylands.

    • galeandra 10.2

      Srylands “You are simply making shit up….”
      Unlike you?

      These people have been in prison for a variety of offences, as can be ascertained from interviews on TV and in print, including direct comments by cell-phone. Some of their offending has included assault, breach of probation and burglary. Some will have been seriously criminal, no doubt, and some will have been less so. You might notice the use of “many of ” & “may have”in Huggin’s post. Do pay attention.

      They have been ‘held’ as in incarcerated under conditions as extreme as lock-down and solitary confinement,after their sentences of imprisonment have been completed, as have been many of the ‘boat people’ unfortunate enough to end up in Nauru or on Christmas Island. No doubt this sort of breach of the UN Charter of Human Rights is ok in your universe, it’s not in mine.

    • Is your point that whatever offences these people committed and served time for also justify detention without charge for an indefinite period, because Labour? Otherwise, it’s not obvious what point you’re trying to make.

    • alwyn 10.4

      I don’t believe that they were Helen Clark’s “idea” at all.
      She didn’t have any real choice in the matter. What she did wrong was to agree to what was an Australian ultimatum without telling the New Zealand populace what it was that she was having to agree too. She should have told us in 2001 what it was that Australia was going to do.

      David Lange did that when New Zealand released the Rainbow Warrior bombing organisers. He told us that New Zealand couldn’t afford the problems France would cause us with access to Britain and the rest of Europe. Helen should have been equally honest and told us what Australia was up to and that there was nothing we could do about it.

      • lprent 10.4.1

        What she did wrong was to agree to what was an Australian ultimatum without telling the New Zealand populace what it was that she was having to agree too. She should have told us in 2001 what it was that Australia was going to do.

        She did. Weren’t you listening? Google it and you will find she did lay out exactly these kinds of issues at the time. Some were picked up by the intelligent media at the time, and some were not.

        But the issue of kids in aussie was extensively talked about at the time. Certainly my relatives heading over to aussie made decisions about shifting to aussie citizenship, or came back here to have kids.

        • alwyn

          I was listening at the time, although it wasn’t going to concern me any more as I had made my decision about where I wanted to live.
          I don’t remember an unequivocal, or complete, explanation from the New Zealand Government as to what the Australian actions were going to mean to people from this country who were planning to move across the ditch and despite the wonders of Google I can’t find any now.
          There were various comments but the ones I have found are generally along the lines that the Australian Government must make the decisions it chooses, or take the rosy viewpoint that things haven’t changed very much.
          Can you please give me any links to where the then New Zealand Government spelled out, in detail and to a full public forum, what the things the Australia would mean?
          I can’t find any and I have looked.
          It doesn’t matter now of course but I still think it was a failure not to have told any New Zealand people moving over there what the long term implications were going to be. This was, considering the enormous number of people who shift over there, probably the most momentous occurrence that happened in this country during the first decade of this century.
          At the least this need only have involved sending the information to anyone who on their New Zealand departure card said that they were leaving New Zealand permanently for Australia.

          • One Anonymous Bloke

            For example, as reported by TVNZ.

            • McFlock


            • alwyn

              This press release you reference seems to prove my point.
              I seems to follow exactly what I say in “take the rosy viewpoint that things haven’t changed very much.”
              For example it says
              “The new arrangements preserve the right of New Zealanders to move to and live and work in Australia.”
              “”From today New Zealanders will have to be granted permanent residency, as well as have lived in Australia for two years”
              “underscores our ability to work together on issues of common concern”

              Do you really understand that things have drastically changed because it doesn’t tell you that for most people from this country it will be almost impossible to get the required permanent residence, and you will never be able to fully settle there.
              Let’s face it. Even Oscar winner Russell Crowe doesn’t qualify.
              All this is is a spoonful of honey and a hope that people don’t realise what the Government of Australia is doing.
              She should have spelt out fully what the changes meant. She wasn’t to blame for what Australia did but she shouldn’t have left us in a state of blissful ignorance.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Luckily, TVNZ spelled it out, as per the second link.

                Oh, and that is one statement from HC at the time. Are you going to take some personal responsibility for your opinion by looking for more, or do other commenters have to do it for you?

                • alwyn

                  The second reference was of course not from the New Zealand Government. It was from an academic from Monash University in Melbourne.
                  I did look for other statements at the time from Helen Clark, or the New Zealand Government in general. They were all of the “every thing is fine and nothing much has changed ilk”.
                  I found lots and lots of those but I can’t find any that spell it out clearly that most people can no longer move there and become citizens and the world has changed for good.
                  The one you referenced certainly doesn’t raise any alarm bells does it? Neither did any of the copious references I found.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    I can recall being completely aware of Howard’s xenophobic vote-grubbing. Perhaps I wasn’t blinded by team loyalty or something.

                    • alwyn

                      I have zero time for Howard.

                      On the other hand, and I hope I am not accused of following Godwin’s law, I wish the New Zealand Government of the time had echoed Churchill rather than Chamberlain in their views on the Munich agreement..

                      Our Government should have said something like Churchill’s
                      “We have suffered a total and unmitigated defeat … you will find that in a period of time which may be measured by years, but may be measured by months”

                      rather than emulate Chamberlain’s
                      “My good friends, for the second time in our history a (British) New Zealand Prime Minister has returned from (Germany) Australia bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time”.

                      Then we would have understood what the effects were going to be.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke



                    • McFlock

                      and yet Clark wouldn’t have wibbled about “matesmanship” when talking about nzers dying in deportation camps.

                    • RedLogix

                      Maybe we should just deport their banks.

                      That would get their attention.

                    • alwyn

                      “and yet Clark wouldn’t have wibbled about “matesmanship” when talking about nzers dying in deportation camps.”
                      Wow! Perhaps you can tell us just HOW you know that?
                      The answer is you don’t, just as I have no idea what John Key might have said if he had been present in 2001.

                      That is why I talk about things that did happen, not those that never did and about which nothing can be known. You are like the people in the 1970’s who told us what Kennedy would have done in his second term, and how he would have withdrawn from Vietnam and all those other things. They, like you, happily announced as facts things that simply couldn’t be known.

                    • McFlock

                      “and yet Clark wouldn’t have wibbled about “matesmanship” when talking about nzers dying in deportation camps.”
                      Wow! Perhaps you can tell us just HOW you know that? The answer is you don’t, just as I have no idea what John Key might have said if he had been present in 2001.

                      Oh fuck off. We’ve had seven years of key and nine years of clark. If you can’t see any significant differences in communication style with that level of data to draw from, then you’re an idiot. We’re not talking geopolitical alternate history speculation here, it’s just a simple observation that Clark knows that “diplomacy” is not shorthand for “being a snivelling little toady”.

          • srylands

            I have some sympathy with what you are saying. I don’t think the 5th Labour Government did spell out the consequences of the new arrangements in 2001. Their focus was on avoiding an ever increasing fiscal transfer to Australia. Under the previous arrangements that were in place from the mid 80s until 2001 New Zealand partially compensated Australia for welfare payments to New Zealanders. The amount paid was renegotiated every three years. When it came up for renegotiation in 2000 the bill was too high to bear.

            So the restricted rights of New Zealanders in Australia came at the instigation of the New Zealand Government. The stated priority was for the welfare of New Zealanders in New Zealand, NOT New Zealanders living in Australia. So when New Zealand suggested that Australia cut off access to benefits to Kiwis in Australia, the Australian Government effectively said ‘cool problem fixed. Thanks for that.”

            While I have sympathy for the plight of New Zealand children in Australia who find themselves in a fix, I have much less sympathy for long term New Zealand residents – those who arrived before 2001- and who could have easily applied for Australian citizenship after 5 years, and been granted that unless they were of bad character. Many did not do so because they had limited incentives. They were living in benign circumstances. The lesson is that if you are going to reside long term in another country it is very stupid not to become a citizen if you are able to do so because the policies of that country towards non-citizens can change.

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              I don’t think the 5th Labour Government did spell out the consequences of the new arrangements in 2001.

              Lprent’s right, you are Google-challenged!

              Do I have to drag you backwards through the Family and Community Services Legislation Amendment (New Zealand Citizens) Bill 2001 before you’ll get a grip on reality?

              • srylands

                I don’t know what the fuck you are on about. And Prentice is a nasty piece of work. I would not quote him in support of any point you are making.

                To repeat – the Government in 2000 was motivated for fiscal reasons to suggest to Australia that the arrangements be changed. The press release from Helen Clark of course puts a rosy picture on things because the rights of all the existing residents in Australia were grandparented.

                Now go fuck yourself and stop quoting Prentice at me. I pay zero attention to anything he says.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  to suggest to Australia that the arrangements be changed.

                  I expect this is a lie.

                  Yep: sure’nuff, John Howard claims it was his initiative. Why does S Rylands tell so many lies? Force of habit? For the money? I think we should be told.

                  • McFlock

                    My guess is that sslands just assumes he knows everything, so he doesn’t need to check his assertions.

                    Best way to avoid any inconvenient truths…

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      My guess is that S Rylands earns money by constructing sophisticated rhetoric in support of the things right wing politicians want to do.

  11. Tory 11

    Syrians, 100% correct. Problem is these bleeding heart liberals don’t realise that the right to live and work in another country is a privilege not a right. These fuckers that have robbed, assulted, raped and burgled law abiding members of the public deserve everything they get. I have been accused of only being concerned about myself but it pisses me off when so many Kiwis who have made Ausssie their home and are advocating for greater recognition are being pushed to the side by the convicted who are crying “it’s not fair”. Tought shit, read the fine print before you decided to make a decision that has long lasting consequences.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 11.1

      That’s right, it’s all about you, and your fatuous vengeance fantasies, [deleted].

      [lprent: Too far again. Tone it down before I have to start wasting time on you. You know the drill. ]

      • McFlock 11.1.1

        bleeding heart liberals don’t realise that the right to live and work in another country is a privilege not a right.

        but but but you literally just called it a “right”: the right to live and work in another country.

    • Puddleglum 11.2


      I presume you were directing your comment at srylands?

    • lprent 11.3

      So you characterise children who grew up in aussie that way? That they made a choice to be there?

      You really are a fool.

  12. KJT 12

    Wonder how it does work for FIFO when it normally works out at 26 days leave in New Zealand, 2 days travel time and 28 days work, especially as you can still be tax resident in New Zealand. Though both countries will try and sting you, despite the double tax treaty.

    I know one Indian, who was a New Zealand permanent resident, living, paying taxes and taking his leaves in New Zealand, who could not rake up the required years of residency for NZ citizenship, because of his work leave cycle.

    Working in Indonesia on a Liberian flag rig, owned by France, run by a US company, under a contract from a Belgian manning company, supplied from Australia, gets even more complicated.

  13. Oh, and …

    the right to live and work in another country is a privilege not a right

    I think that contradicts itself.

    [[Edit: a response to Tory.]

  14. Tory 14

    Syrlands, yes a slip of the key pad.
    OAB, you still here? how come you are not heading to Aussie with Kelvin to help the convicted get saved from the “death camps”. [deleted]

    [lprent: That is too far. The deleted description didn’t relate at all to your point, which makes it pointless abuse and in this case is designed to provoke exclusionary behaviour. Please avoid going down that path and stop causing me work. If I get too many calls on my times then I will remove the problem. ]

  15. Tory 15

    Galeandra, what you and the others don’t understand is these convicted criminals have committed 2 crimes. The first is what they get locked up for and the second is breaching the terms of their resident or work permit visas. Most countries extradite non resident convicted criminals, many in far worse conditions.
    How about a bit of empathy for the victims of crime rather than rolling out the red carpet for the shitheads who chose to shit in their own nest?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 15.1

      Projecting your lack of empathy onto others is yet another example of your double standards, fantasy boy.

    • lprent 15.3

      The first is what they get locked up for…

      How about a bit of empathy for the victims of crime..

      Beyond what domestic criminals get after they have done their time? Why there is a difference?

      You are merely convincing me that you are a unthinking hypocrite with a obsession about punishing foreigners. In other words a pretty typical parochial bigot.

  16. If you’re an adult and have spent more than half your life on the other side of the Tasman, you should pretty much get citizenship as of right.

    Well, you don’t in this country, so why would Australia offer it? You get citizenship by meeting the criteria for citizenship and officially requesting it. If you don’t realise you’re not a citizen of the country you live in, it can bite you on the arse.

    I was bemused to discover, when I applied for a passport as a 28-year-old who’d lived in NZ for 26 years, that I wasn’t entitled to one because I wasn’t an NZer. It hadn’t occurred to me I might not be, and presumably a lot of the people who are being treated to a demonstration of “maintaining Australia’s standards” (as Turnbull calls indefinite detention without charge – and really, I can’t disagree with him on that point, it totally does maintain their typical standard) achieved the same level of ignorance about their situation. Even having been refused a passport, I just got a British one and used that – until one day I arrived back in Auckland from an overseas trip and the passport control guy asked me how come I didn’t have a return ticket. Turned out my permanent residence had lapsed. After talking my way out of that one I finally gave in and took out citizenship – good job we don’t have people like Abbott and Turnbull running things here, or I would have found myself deported to the UK.

  17. Sanctuary 17

    Personally, I think we should end the free exchange of labour between NZ and Australia, and I think we should end it for three reasons:

    Firstly at the top end, allowing Australia to cream off our best and most expensively educated young talent – particularly in crucial mid-lower level career leadership roles – simply doesn’t make sense. This exodus of leadership talent is to my mind a big cause of the lack of upward pressure from young talent that is a major contributor to the generally mediocre performance and lack of imagination displayed by NZs aging and increasingly decrepit and decadent leadership elites over the past few decades, and it affects everything from unions to business to journalism to the quality of parliamentary candidates.

    Secondly at the lower end, Australia has acted as a safety valve for the consequences of anti-worker and disastrous, ideologically driven, economic polices. Would New Zealand be the country it is today if the population was five million and unemployment in the low skill sector stood at 600,000? I doubt it. If a riot is the language of the unheard, with 600K unemployed they would have started being heard years ago in NZ!

    Thirdly, amongst all the cacophony of Key’s hollow flag debate no one is asking the serious questions about the meaning of being a proper sovereign nation that stands on it’s own two feet. A country that kowtows to the USA on foreign policy is not independent no matter what it’s flag looks like, and similarly a country that allows itself to be treated as a reservoir of talent and cheap labour is not independent – it is just a client state in the first case, and a supine colonial victim of economic imperialism in the second.

    We need to grow up, own our problems, own our country, keep our best leaders and get them to fix our economic problems rather than simply fall back on a colonial economic safety valve where our people are reduced to the status of second class gastarbeiters in Australia.

    • RedLogix 17.1

      Effectively you are asking to tear up CER.

      Because the points you make do not stand on their own. CER has also been of enormous benefit to Australian business. Their banking, insurance, finance and retail sectors in particular. If you want to end the free flow of people, then you also have to undo the free flow of capital. In other words confiscate the assets of all Australian businesses here in NZ. That would get their attention.

      The problem is that CER has stood still since it was written. Either we should go the full monty and become a proper state of the Federation, and thereby gain some political traction in Canberra – or go our separate way as you suggest.

      What we have at the moment is a half-arsed muddle which serves Australian interests far more than ours.

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    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    3 days ago
  • Speaker: Les Gray: the man who told the truth
    The story of Les Gray, the public sector psychologist who told the truth about his use of cannabis and set off a storm, has a special place in the lore of cannabis reform in New Zealand.When Paul Shannon interviewed Gray for the 'Dope and Hope' issue of Planet magazine in ...
    3 days ago
  • Why now? Historical specificity and the perfect storm that has created trans identity politics
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    RedlineBy Admin
    4 days ago
  • Time for a living wage for supermarket workers
    Since the lockdown began, we've all suddenly been reminded who the actually essential workers in our society are: not the people at the top who pay themselves the big bucks and rort the perks, but the people at the bottom they screw over and squeeze: cleaners, warehouse staff, truck drivers ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Hard News: MUSIC: Lockdown Grooves
    Kia ora! As I've watched nearly all my remaining work vanish over the past couple of days, it has occured to me that one good way to keep me away from arguing with fools on Twitter all the time (in the knowledge that all we're really doing is processing our ...
    4 days ago
  • A place of greater safety?
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    4 days ago
  • The police and public trust
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Life in Lock Down: Day 4
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    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    4 days ago
  • COVID-19 vs New Zealand
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    4 days ago
  • 2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming Digest #13
    Story of the Week... Toon of the Week... Coming Soon on SkS... Climate Feedback Claim Review... SkS Week in Review... Poster of the Week... Story of the Week... ‘Misinformation kills’: The link between coronavirus conspiracies and climate denial   Grist / Rob Kim / Stringer / CSA Images  Scientific ...
    4 days ago
  • Rāhui day 4
    The kids did surprisingly well today – meltdown count was about 3, and mostly fairly short ones. (And a fourth while I was writing.) Game-wise I had a go at Fell Seal: Arbiter’s Mark. It’s a fairly standard RPG with turn-based combat and what they call a “mature storyline” (it ...
    The little pakehaBy chrismiller
    5 days ago
  • Letter to a friend
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    RedlineBy Daphna
    5 days ago
  • Life in Lock Down: Day 3
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    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    5 days ago
  • 2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #13
    A chronological listing of news articles linked to on the Skeptical Science Facebook Page during the past week, i.e., Sun, Mar 22, 2020 through Sat, Mar 28, 2020 Articles Linked to on Facebook Sun, Mar 22, 2020 In Just 10 Years, Warming Has Increased the Odds of Disasters by Chelsea Harvey, ...
    6 days ago
  • Rāhui day 3
    I’m here in lockdown with my flatmate and her two girls (6 and 2) and it. is. a time. They’re usually really active so to start with the only boardgame in the house is the copy of Guess Who that the 6 year old got for her birthday. Flatmate commented ...
    The little pakehaBy chrismiller
    6 days ago
  • A test of civil society.
    The CV-19 (COVID) pandemic has seen the imposition of a government ordered national quarantine and the promulgation of a series of measures designed to spread the burden of pain and soften the economic blow on the most strategically important and most vulnerable sectors of society. The national narrative is framed ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    6 days ago
  • Life in Lock Down: Day 2
    . . Lock Down: Day 2 – A photo essay with observations . March 27 – Day 2 of our Strange New World. The Park and Ride near my suburb, usually filled with hundreds of vehicles, had just… four; . . Another drive into Wellington City on a highway nearly ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    6 days ago
  • How Do You Feel? What Do You Think?
    Fortune's Children: Under extraordinary pressure, the leader of the Government and the leader of the Opposition will each show us what they are made of. Have they been blessed with intelligence, grace, wit, poise, toughness, empathy and humour – and in what measure? More importantly, to what extent have they ...
    6 days ago
  • Landlords are NOT an essential service
    If you’ve ever had the misfortune of having to rent a property on the open market in New Zealand, which is one of the most expensive in the entire world, you’ll likely be keenly aware of just how arrogant and entitled landlords and their real estate agents can be.Unfortunately for ...
    6 days ago
  • A “new Society” post-COVID19 will definitely emerge. The question is: on what path?
    Society-wise, aside from the specific morbidity shall we say of the medically-oriented aspects of this COVID-19 crisis, what is unfolding before the world is in more than one way an instructive study of humanity and reactions to a high intensity, high stress environment in real time. Friends, we are at ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    7 days ago
  • Raise the Bar: Everything you need to know about the wage subsidy
    Right now low waged and insecure workers are feeling the economic brunt of the looming #Covid19 Recession. In response legal advocate Toby Cooper* and hospitality and worker’s rights advocate Chloe Ann-King, are putting together a series of legal blogs about your employment rights: In this legal blog we outline some ...
    PosseBy chloeanneking
    7 days ago
  • The massacre of prisoners in Modelo jail, Bogota, March 21
    by Equipo Jurídico Pueblos and Gearóid Ó Loingsigh (25/03/2020) An escape plan in question On the night of March 21st and the early morning of the 22nd, the forces of the Colombian state stormed into the Modelo prison in Bogotá, murdering 23 prisoners and injuring 83, in response to the ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • We are not America
    When the government banned semi-automatic weapons in response to a terrorist atrocity, gun-nuts were outraged. Mired in toxic American gun culture, they thought owning weapons whose sole purpose was killing people was some sort of "constitutional right", a necessity for "defending themselves" against the government. Now, the Court of Appeal ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • When will we know the lockdown is working?
    Just before midnight on Wednesday March 25, Aotearoa New Zealand entered a countrywide alert level four lockdown. For at least the next four weeks, everyone who isn’t an essential worker is confined to their bubble. We are doing this to stop the explosive growth in people contracting and dying from ...
    SciBlogsBy Siouxsie Wiles
    1 week ago
  • Lock Down: Day 1
    . . Lock Down: Day 1 – A photo essay with observations . Day one of the Level 4 nationwide lock-down (or, DefCon 4 as I sometimes cheekily call it) started at 11.59PM on 25 March. For a moment, most of the nation held it’s collective breath. In that brief ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    1 week ago
  • A Compelling Recollection.
    Broad, Sunlit Uplands: How those words fired my young imagination! Or, perhaps, it is more accurate to say: how those words fused, in my young mind, with the image printed on every packet of Fielder’s Cornflour. Always fascinated by history, especially modern history, I cannot hear Churchill’s wonderfully evocative words, even ...
    1 week ago
  • The Warehouse – where everyone gets a virus
    . . 24 March 2020 9.46AM Number of covid19 cases in Aotearoa New Zealand: 102 . As of 11.59 on Thursday, most of New Zealand will go into “lock down”. People will be expected not to travel to work; not to socialise; and to stay home. I will not be ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    1 week ago
  • Aggressive action to address climate change could save the world $145 trillion
    This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections A respected research group, Project Drawdown, finds that deploying solutions consistent with meeting the Paris climate targets would cost tens of trillions of dollars globally. But crucially, those outlays would also yield long-term savings many times larger than the up-front costs. The new 2020 Drawdown ...
    1 week ago
  • After the Pandemic
    It will pass. What happens next? Not immediately, but longer term. There are many opinions, fewer certainties. Will it “change everything!” as many confidently, and contradictorily predict? In this post I look at how foresight can help bound some of the uncertainties so you can more objectively consider the future. ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert Hickson
    1 week ago
  • Coronavirus – Cuba shows the way
    We’ve been meaning t write something on Cuba and the coronavirus but have just discovered a very good article on the subject in the US left publication Jacobin.  The article looks at how Cuba, a poor country but one where capitalism has been done away with, is leading the way ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Using privacy law to prevent the death penalty
    In 2018, El Shafee Elsheikh and Alexanda Kotey - two British citizens who had purportedly been stripped of their citizenship by the British government - were captured while fighting for Isis in Syria. The British government then conspired to hand them over to the US, and agreed to provide evidence ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • It’s Time For Disaster Socialism.
    Transformers: The disaster of the Great Depression was transformed into a new and fairer society by the democratic socialism of the First Labour Government. The disaster of the Covid-19 Pandemic offers a similar transformative possibility to the Labour-NZ First-Green Government. Seize the time, Jacinda! You will never have a better ...
    1 week ago
  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #12, 2020
    Tamper with The System? Well, we already are. But there's a difference between accidentally trickling sand into a precision gearbox versus formulating a plan to alter it on the fly with improvements in mind. One action is more or less innocently unscrupulous, the other amenable to earning an easy ...
    1 week ago
  • Avoidable hospitalisations: Helping our health system get through COVID-19
    Associate Prof George Thomson, Louise Delany, Prof Nick Wilson While it is possible that New Zealand can use intense public health controls to eradicate COVID-19 from the country – we must also plan for other scenarios where thousands of New Zealanders are sick – including many urgently hospitalised.1 Better resilience ...
    SciBlogsBy Public Health Expert
    1 week ago
  • Raise the Bar: 10 questions to ask your employer proposing redundancy
    Kia ora my name is Chloe Ann-King* and I am the founder of Raise the Bar, a campaign and non-profit that gives free legal aid, advocacy and tautoko to hospitality workers in Aotearoa. Right now all over our country hospo workers are being fired at will, having shifts cut or being ...
    PosseBy chloeanneking
    1 week ago
  • An equitable way to support business
    The Herald reports that the government is planning to lend billions of dollars to large businesses to keep them operating during the pandemic. As with mortgage relief, this is necessary: we need companies to stay in business, to reduce the economic damage and help things get restarted again when this ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Hard News: Together Alone
    We're about to do something unprecedented as a nation. We hope that by taking this extraordinary action before a single life in New Zealand has been lost to the deadly novel virus we will save tens of thousands of lives. Our  lives. We'll do it together, in households, in isolation ...
    1 week ago
  • Why timing is everything: ‘A time to refrain from embracing’ starts today
    “There is a time for everything,    and a season for every activity under the heavens.”So writes the author of Ecclesiastes, a book in the Old Testament that’s counted as a ‘wisdom’ book and written as if by an unnamed king of Jerusalem. But who would have thought there would be a time ...
    PunditBy Tim Watkin
    1 week ago
  • Dealing with the Covid-19 Tsunami.
    I was surprised when the prime minister described the Economic Response to Covid-19 package as the ‘largest peacetime government spend in New Zealand's history’. Reflecting – checking through history – I realised that the term ‘spend’ was crucial and the package had no income tax cuts. Even so, it has ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    1 week ago
  • What about renters?
    The government today announced the latest part of its pandemic relief package: a six-month mortgage holiday for people whose incomes have been affected by the pandemic. Which is great, because these people are going to need help, and that's what the government should be doing. At the same time, it ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago

  • Further measures to support businesses
    The Government will be introducing legislation to make changes to the Companies Act to help companies facing insolvency due to COVID-19 to remain viable and keep New Zealanders in jobs. The temporary changes include: Giving directors of companies facing significant liquidity problems because of COVID-19 a ‘safe harbour’ from insolvency ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 hours ago
  • Govt’s COVID plan, economic strength recognised
    The Government’s plan to cushion the blow of COVID-19 by supporting incomes, jobs and businesses, and position the economy to recover has been backed by another international report. International credit rating agency Moody’s today reaffirmed its highest Aaa credit rating on New Zealand, saying the economy is expected to remain ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 hours ago
  • Funding certainty for sports through COVID-19
    National sports organisations have been given certainty of funding to ensure they can remain viable through the COVID-19 pandemic, Sport and Recreation Minister Grant Robertson announced today. “The global spread of COVID-19 has had a significant impact on sport and recreation in New Zealand, including the cancellation or postponement of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    13 hours ago
  • Butchers now allowed to process pork
    Changes have been made to allow butchers to process pork, only for supply to supermarkets or other processors or retailers that are open, Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor has announced. “We carefully weighed the risk of allowing butchers to open their shops for retail customers, but the risk of spreading COVID-19 ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Essential workers leave scheme established
    Essential workers who take leave from work to comply with public health guidance are being supported with a leave scheme to ensure they will continue to receive income, say the Minister of Workplace Relations and Safety Iain Lees-Galloway and Minister for Social Development, Carmel Sepuloni. A number of essential businesses ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Govt WhatsApp helps share COVID-19 information
    A Government WhatsApp channel has been launched to help make information more easily accessible and shareable in the fight against COVID-19. Govt.NZ, which is free to use on any mobile device, will carry information and news for the public, businesses, healthcare providers, not for profits and local government. It can ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Managed departure plan for stranded foreign nationals enables safe, orderly exit
    The Government has announced a plan to enable the safe, orderly exit of tens of thousands of stranded foreign nationals from New Zealand during the current COVID-19 Alert Level 4 restrictions, Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Winston Peters has said. “When we moved into lockdown a week ago, the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Government delivers COVID-19 support to GPs and Pharmacies
    Health Minister Dr David Clark says the Government is delivering on its commitment to support general practice doctors and nurses, and pharmacies on the front-line of our fight against COVID-19. "For us to overcome COVID-19, we need community health services such as general practice and community pharmacy to step up ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Susan Thomas the new Chief High Court Judge
    Justice Susan Thomas has been appointed Chief High Court Judge, Attorney-General David Parker announced today.  She replaces Justice Geoffrey Venning who has resigned from the position.   David Parker paid tribute to Justice Venning, who he said had stewarded the High Court very capably over the last five years.   “On behalf ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Business Finance Guarantee – applications open
    Businesses can start applying to their banks for loans under the Business Finance Guarantee Scheme set up to support the New Zealand economy during the COVID-19 pandemic. “We’re moving quickly to protect New Zealand businesses, jobs and the economy during this unprecedented global economic shock,” Finance Minister Grant Robertson said. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Work starts on ways to fast-track consents to boost recovery from Covid-19 downturn
    Work is underway looking at measures to speed up consents for development and infrastructure projects during the recovery from COVID 19, to provide jobs and stimulate our economy.  Environment Minister David Parker said the COVID-19 pandemic is a serious global crisis that will have a wide ranging and lasting impact ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Advance payments to support contractors
    Advance payments will be made to transport construction industry contractors to retain the workforce and ensure it is ready to quickly gear up to build projects which will be vital to New Zealand’s COVID-19 economic recovery, Transport Minister Phil Twyford announced today. He said keeping the workforce required to build ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Government seeks infrastructure projects
    The Government has tasked a group of industry leaders to seek out infrastructure projects that are ready to start as soon as the construction industry returns to normal to reduce the economic impact of the COVID-19 pandemic, Economic Development Minister Phil Twyford and Infrastructure Minister Shane Jones say. The Infrastructure ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Health system scaled up to prepare for COVID-19
    Work to scale up the health system in preparation for COVID-19 was today outlined by Health Minister David Clark, as he reported back to the new Epidemic Response Committee. “We are well placed to contain the spread of COVID-19. We have taken early and decisive action at our borders, and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Essential media COVID-19 guidelines refined
    The Government is refining its COVID-19 essential business guidance to include the distribution of news publications for communities which are hard to reach. The Minister of Broadcasting, Communications and Digital Media, Kris Faafoi, said the move was in recognition of the importance for New Zealanders who might be harder to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Supermarkets able to open on Easter Sunday
    The Government is ensuring supermarkets can open on Easter Sunday so we can buy groceries, but stay closed on Good Friday allowing workers to take a break. This provides a balanced approach and ensures we avoid large queues that two days closure may cause. “Supermarkets will be able to open ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • New Zealand defence personnel conclude mission at Taji
    Following the successful conclusion of the Building Partner Capacity (BPC) mission at Taji, New Zealand defence personnel are returning to New Zealand from Iraq, in accordance with the Cabinet decision made in June 2019, Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters and Defence Minister Ron Mark announced today. “New Zealand is very ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • State of National Emergency extended
    The State of National Emergency to help stop the spread of COVID-19 has been extended for a further seven days, Minister of Civil Defence Peeni Henare said. The initial declaration on March 25 lasted seven days and can be extended as many times as necessary. “Since we went into isolation ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Strong Govt books support ‘go hard, go early’ response
    New Zealand’s ability to go hard and go early in the fight against COVID-19 has been underpinned by strong Government finances and the growing economy heading into this global pandemic, Finance Minister Grant Robertson says. The Treasury today released the Crown financial statements for the eight months to the end ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Christchurch Hospital Hagley ICU to open to support COVID-19 response
    Health Minister Dr David Clark says 36 new intensive care beds at Christchurch Hospital’s new Hagley building are being fast tracked so they are available for treatment of COVID-19 patients.   The Ministry of Health is working with contractor CPB and Canterbury DHB to enable access to the hospital’s ICU, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Government supports Air NZ freight flights
    The Government has fast-tracked up to $1 million to help Air New Zealand move urgent freight to and from New Zealand, with the first flight to Shanghai leaving tonight, Transport Minister Phil Twyford announced today. Phil Twyford says it’s crucial that trade in vital goods such as medical supplies and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Tariff concessions on COVID-19 related products
    New Zealand will temporarily remove tariffs on all medical and hygiene imports needed for the COVID-19 response. Trade and Export Growth Minister David Parker and Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Kris Faafoi said today that the New Zealand Customs Service will apply tariff concessions to all diagnostic reagents and testing ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Clarification of modification to wage subsidy scheme
    Minister of Finance Grant Robertson has clarified that the changes to the wage subsidy scheme announced yesterday mean that employers should be passing on the full subsidy to workers, except in the case where the person’s normal income is less than the level of the subsidy. “We still want employers ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Face masks flowing to DHBs
    Medical face masks from the national reserve supply are now being distributed to District Health Boards, while at the same time local production is being ramped up. Yesterday more than 640,000 masks were sent to DHBS – that is an immediate two week supply, with more to follow in coming ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • COVID-19: Further steps to protect New Zealanders’ jobs
    The Government has made modifications to the wage subsidy scheme to ensure people don’t lose their jobs during the national lockdown. These changes will soften the impact of COVID-19 on workers, families and businesses, and position them to exit the lockdown and look to recovery, Finance Minister Grant Robertson says. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Tax relief for Mycoplasma Bovis farmers
    Farmers whose herds were culled in response to the outbreak of Mycoplasma bovis will be able to minimise the tax treatment of their income in some circumstances. Revenue Minister Stuart Nash says Cabinet has agreed to change the law. It means farmers may be eligible to spread their income over ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • $27 million for NGOs and community groups to continue providing essential services
    A $27 million dollar package, effective immediately, is being provided to social sector services and community groups to ensure they can continue to provide essential support to communities as we stay at home as a nation to stop the spread of COVID-19, Minister for Social Development Carmel Sepuloni announced. “At ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Statement on guilty plea of March 15 terrorist
    “The guilty plea today will provide some relief to the many people whose lives were shattered by what happened on March 15,” Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said. “These guilty pleas and conviction bring accountability for what happened and also save the families who lost loved ones, those who were injured, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • COVID-19 updates
    The Prime Minister is holding daily press conferences to update New Zealanders on the Government's response to COVID-19. Links to videos and transcripts of these updates below. These transcripts also include All of Government press conferences led by Director Ministry of Health's Director-General of Health Dr Ashley Bloomfield. 25 March: Live update from the Prime ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Police numbers break through 10,000 mark
    Frontline Police numbers have broken through the 10,000 mark for the first time in history as officers step forward to keep the community safe during the COVID19 lockdown. “Two Police graduations in Auckland and Wellington in the past week have been conducted in unprecedented circumstances,” Police Minister Stuart Nash said. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Urgent tax measures for economic recovery
    Urgent legislation has been passed to support the package of economic and social measures needed to recover from the impact of the coronavirus outbreak. “The COVID-19 Response (Taxation and Social Assistance Urgent Measures) Bill will cushion New Zealanders from the worst economic impacts of the COVID-19 outbreak,” said Revenue Minister ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Further support for farmers and growers as drought persists
    From tomorrow, Government support for farmers and growers affected by drought will be expanded and extended across the country, with access to Rural Assistance Payments (RAPS) available throughout the North Island, parts of the South Island and the Chatham Islands, Social Development Minister Carmel Sepuloni announced. “These challenging conditions have ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • COVID-19: Temporary changes to Education Act
    Parliament has passed amendments to legislation that give the Secretary of Education stronger powers to act in the fight to limit the spread of COVID-19, Education Minister Chris Hipkins said today. “They are part of a suite of changes passed under the COVID-19 Response (Urgent Management Measures) Legislation Bill,” Chris ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Canada, Australia, Chile, Brunei and Myanmar join NZ and Singapore in committing to keeping supply a...
    Canada, Australia, Chile, Brunei and Myanmar have joined forces with New Zealand and Singapore by committing to keep supply chains open and remove any existing trade restrictive measures on essential goods, especially medical supplies, in the face of the Covid-19 crisis.  Trade and Export Growth Minister David Parker today welcomed ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • COVID-19: Rent increase freeze and more protection for tenants
    Immediate freeze on rent increases Tenancies will not be terminated during the lock-down period, unless the parties agree, or in limited circumstances Tenants who had previously given notice can stay in their if they need to stay in the tenancy during the lock-down period Tenants will still be able to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Working together to protect businesses and workers
    As New Zealand unites to lock-down in the fight against COVID-19, the Finance Minister is urging all businesses and workers to stay connected over the next four weeks. “We understand the extreme pressure many businesses are under right now. I know most business owners think of their workers as family ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • State of National Emergency declared to fight COVID-19
    A State of National Emergency has been declared across the country as the Government pulls out all the stops to curtail the spread of COVID-19. “Today we put in place our country’s second ever State of National Emergency as we fight a global pandemic, save New Zealanders’ lives and prevent ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Prime Minister’s statement on State of National Emergency and Epidemic Notice
    Mr Speaker I wish to make a Ministerial Statement under Standing Order 347 in relation to the recent declaration of a State of National Emergency. Having considered the advice of the Director Civil Defence Emergency Management, the Minister of Civil Defence declared a State of National Emergency for the whole of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Deadline for domestic travel extended
    People needing to travel on domestic flights, trains and Cook Strait ferries to get home before the country moves into level 4 lock-down tomorrow night will be able to continue using the passenger services until midnight on Friday, Transport Minister Phil Twyford said today. Domestic passenger services, particularly ferries, have ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Mortgage holiday and business finance support schemes to cushion COVID impacts
    The Government, retail banks and the Reserve Bank are today announcing a major financial support package for home owners and businesses affected by the economic impacts of COVID-19. The package will include a six month principal and interest payment holiday for mortgage holders and SME customers whose incomes have been ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago