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Arrest Blair’s Mate

Written By: - Date published: 8:45 am, September 29th, 2016 - 303 comments
Categories: class war, crime, International, law and "order" - Tags: , ,

At last there is confirmation that the downing of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 was a war crime. Pro Russian rebels, using a Russian supplied ground to air missile, shot down the commercial jet, probably believing it was a Ukrainian military aircraft.

The investigation found:

  • The missile was fired from an arable field 6km south of the town of Snizhne, an area was under the control of pro-Russia fighters.
  • The Buk came from Russian territory into eastern Ukraine and was later transported on a white Volvo truck. Witnesses, photographs and video show it escorted by several other vehicles and by “armed men in uniform”.
  • Around 100 people have been identified who can be linked to the downing of MH17 or the transport of the Buk.
  • Witnesses at the launch site near the village of Pervomaiskyi reported hearing “a very loud noise” and “a high whistling sound”. They also saw a plume of smoke.

As Russia slides from authoritarian to totalitarian, we can expect more crimes like these from the mafia state. We have got used to almost daily atrocities by Russia and its proxies in Syria. The world has effectively shrugged as Russia annexed Crimea against the wishes of the Ukrainian people and against the tenets of international law.

I see a grim irony here. Former British PM Tony Blair is accused of committing war crimes by misleading Parliament into backing the invasion of Iraq. It’s said that Britain had no right to go to war against Saddam Hussein because there are only two circumstances in which it is permissible to wage war under the UN Charter: in self-defence or with the explicit approval of the Security Council.

Blair can’t claim either was the case. But, then, Vladimir Putin cannot say that Ukraine was threatening Russia, not that the UN had granted a mandate for the invasion.

So why aren’t we hearing calls for the citizen’s arrest of Vladimir Putin?

Is it because Tony Blair is a soft target? A former democratically elected politician in a liberal country, now out of Parliament and coining it as an after dinner speaker and friend to despots worldwide, Blair is relatively accessible. Putin is not. He’s a crypto fascist, determined to reintroduce all the worst aspects of the Soviet era, while failing to deliver the better parts of socialism. Housing, healthcare, jobs and inflation are blighting the lives of the Russian people. But the massively wealthy Putin doesn’t care.

The Putinist oligarchy of ex KGB agents has privatised the economy and the Kremlin routinely silences any voices of opposition. Speak up in Russia and you are likely to end up jailed, beaten or killed.

Technically, Russia is a democracy. But elections are far from free and fair. The media is slavishly pro-Putin. Any serious candidate from outside Putin’s party is likely to suffer for their independent stand. Putin may have just seen his party re-elected in the Duma, but that parliament is now a pointless mechanism for the rubber stamping of whatever mad adventure Putin fancies.

Vladimir Putin will continue to coordinate the most awful war crimes. He’ll continue to use proxies to maintain deniability, He’ll continue to keep Russia on a war footing, because without the distraction of an appeal to Russian nationalism, the reality of just how bad life is in Russia would be laid bare.

Tony Blair may be many things; weak, vain, greedy, for example. But he isn’t a war criminal and while he didn’t have a security council mandate for the invasion of Iraq, the UN swiftly recognised the authority of the UK and the US to manage Iraq once the invasion was complete. Blair and Bush can claim some kind of retrospective endorsement. Putin cannot do the same.

So here’s my challenge. Arrest Putin. I’ll donate $500 to anyone who successfully performs a citizen’s arrest on Vladimir Putin. Anywhere, any time.

Any takers?

 

UPDATE: Added an animated video of the route the missile launcher took (actual photos and a brief video of the BUK launcher at around 3.15 in the animation):

 

303 comments on “Arrest Blair’s Mate”

  1. One Anonymous Bloke 1

    Blair has apologised for his ‘mistakes’. If I make ‘mistakes’ that cause deaths I’d expect to end up in court.

    Arrest them both.

  2. Colonial Viper 2

    The Kiev authorities re-directed the doomed MH17 plane from its original flight plan to fly directly over a known war zone where aircraft had previously been shot down.

    That’s the act of criminal negligence on behalf of the US backed unconstitutional Ukranian government which directly led to this tragedy.

    I am surprised that the author of this post did not mention that international aviation rules require countries to ensure the security of the airspace that it sends civilian airliners through.

    Ukranian authorities were criminally negligent on this point.

    And this should have been mentioned in the post.

    Further, the several thousand foot high missile trail of the BUK launch in the middle of the day would have seen by thousands of people and would have been visible for up to half an hour after the launch – yet there was not a single mobile phone photo or video of the missile launch from that date.

    • Aaron 2.1

      Thankyou CV. The US is conducting a propaganda war against Russia so I was immediately suspicious of this news item – nice to see some relevant info come up

    • lprent 2.2

      If an aircraft is at 38k feet, could you please explain how it was involved in a local war on the ground? Was there any evidence of carpet bombing or remote air launched missile attacks?

      As far as I am aware, even the Russians and their local Ukrainian sock-puppets only claim close range tactical air attacks.

      So there would have been little to suspect that some criminal morons fighting at low altitudes would have launched an attack on a high altitude civilian airliner.

      //———–

      If I understand the mechanics of the solid fuel missile used, there wouldn’t have been much visible exhausts at low altitudes except close to the immediate launch site.

      At higher altitudes it is likely that would have been a missile vapor trail.

      So why would people be filming or taking photos of high altitude vapor trails in a continental area where there are typically hundreds of them visible on most days? These aren’t NZ skies – there are contrails everywhere over much of Europe most of the time.

      //————

      Your logic shows no reason why anyone apart from a complete idiot would fire at that plane.

      Based on the evidence about the missile from the official investigations and ignoring the obvious propaganda aimed at credulous fools, that appears to be

      1. An insurgent/covert commander in Russian controlled eastern Ukraine
      2. The Russian morons who gave them a high altitude anti-aircraft missile battery.

      No amount of dumb repetition of propaganda from RT is likely to change my assessment on that.

      • Colonial Viper 2.2.1

        If I understand the mechanics of the solid fuel missile used, there wouldn’t have been much visible exhausts at low altitudes except close to the immediate launch site.

        There are lots of videos of BUK missile launches on youtube. The rocket motor exhaust trails are large, long and very visible during day light.

        Your logic shows no reason why anyone apart from a complete idiot would fire at that plane.

        So there would have been little to suspect that some criminal morons fighting at low altitudes would have launched an attack on a high altitude civilian airliner.

        Yep, agree completely. Especially considering that the BUK ground to air missile system needs a highly trained military crew to operate, and such crews do not get given orders to launch at anything and everything which passes by.

        So the one option that you did not consider, assuming that a BUK missile was used, is that the Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 operating at cruising speed and altitude was knowingly and deliberately targeted, fired upon and shot down out of the skies by the operators of the missile system.

    • Chooky 2.3

      +100 CV…one wonders why the Dutch report is so incomplete…have the Dutch been leaned on in some way or insentivised/bribed to blame the Russians?

      …and RT gives another perspective

      ‘Solid facts? 5 flaws that raise doubt over int’l MH17 criminal probe’

      https://www.rt.com/news/361006-mh17-jit-report-questions/

      ‘MH17 int’l probe’s only sources are Ukrainian intel & internet – Russian MoD’

      https://www.rt.com/news/360963-mh17-probe-ukraine-internet/

      “The international investigators relied only on data provided by the Ukrainian military and from the internet, a Russian military spokesperson said Wednesday. He added that no Russian missile systems have ever crossed into Ukraine…

      • Psycho Milt 2.4.1

        In the German-language article, the pilot speculates that the projectile damage around the cockpit and the undamaged (by projectiles) rest of the plane suggests a fighter aircraft fired its on-board cannon at the cockpit, rather than the plane being hit by a missile, which would have hit the middle of the plane and then exploded. The article is from 2014 – since then, the wreckage has been reconstructed and the projectile damage shown to be from a BUK missile exploding near the cockpit. The German expert can be forgiven for not knowing that in July 2014, but what’s your excuse for not knowing it now?

        • One Anonymous Bloke 2.4.1.1

          Chooky kennt kein Deutsch?

        • Liberal Realist 2.4.1.2

          +1. I watched a video back when this happened of locals being interviewed, they claimed to see two fighter jets in the vicinity of MH17 just before it went down.

          I don’t understand how anyone can give the Ukrainians any credibility? Their current government came to power by a US sponsor violent coup.

          Where is the evidence that Kerry immediately claimed the US had? That has never been made public.

          I just don’t see any benefit for Russia allegedly supporting this and the rebels carrying it out. On the other hand, this sort of thing is right out of the empire’s playbook – Ukraine shoots down a commercial airliner then blames Russia. Queue MSM quislings shouting from the rooftops “Russia did it, Russia did it”. Everything bad in the world these days seems to be ‘Russia’s fault’.

          It’s pretty clear to me that quite a few parts of the US government are just itching for a war with Russia. The rhetoric coming out of a compliant US MSM is the most dangerous I’ve ever heard.

          • Chooky 2.4.1.2.1

            +100 Liberal Realist..I watched that video too…people on the ground were adamant they saw fighter jets alongside the airliner or tailing it

            …there was no advantage to the Russians in shooting a civilian airliner down, quite the contrary

            …so who benefits?

            … Ukrainians and mates black ops setup trying to blame the Russians?

            …and the fact that the airliner was diverted from its original route over a far riskier war zone, says it all imo…a setup

          • Psycho Milt 2.4.1.2.2

            I watched a video back when this happened of locals being interviewed, they claimed to see two fighter jets in the vicinity of MH17 just before it went down.

            The locals saw two fighter jets in the vicinity of MH17 at a height of 10,000 meters? Fucking sharp eyesight on those locals, I must say. Funny though that the air crash investigators kept pulling pieces of a BUK ground-to-air missile out of the wreckage, almost as though the plane were shot down by a BUK rather than fighters.

            On the other hand, this sort of thing is right out of the empire’s playbook – Ukraine shoots down a commercial airliner then blames Russia.

            Oh, you mean like all those other times that happened? Just refresh our memories, would you?

  3. Ukranian authorities were criminally negligent on this point.

    And this should have been mentioned in the post.

    It should? There’s civil aviation authorities failing to give an aircraft the flight path you think it should have been given, and there’s shooting down an airliner with an anti-aircraft missile. I know that you’re a master of false equivalence, but surely that one’s a bit much even for you?

    • Richard Rawshark 3.1

      38 miles up, I doubt I could tell civil to military from the ground.

      There was a point about the flight path it was never mentioned, almost, deliberately, ? not saying that’s the sole reason but CV is right in stating it should have been mentioned as a contributing factor, unless, you had an agenda to lay as much blame in Russia’s direction as possible and leave them no wriggle room

      As for Putin,

      IF he comes to NZ i’ll remember this. I’ll Citizens Arrest him.

      • Colonial Viper 3.1.1

        To hit a target at 38,000 feet the BUK ground to air missile system needs to have its radar vehicle on active tracking/locking mode pinging out radar signals.

        Both US/NATO AWACS and Russian AWACS systems would have seen these missile guidance radar signals from hundreds of kilometres away.

        Did this investigation review that proof, if it exists?

        Also the US monitors every inch of the Russian border with spy satellites. Let’s see evidence of this BUK carrier moving across the border, shooting down MH17 and being moved back across to Russia.

        • Richard Rawshark 3.1.1.1

          I’m not arguing that point CV, take a chill pill. Not arguing as i’m not arguing with you.. get it.

          My point is, Putin old, ex KGB sneaky as a fox and not to be trusted either.

          Just a fact.

          • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1.1

            Yes I certainly agree that Putin has the background of a devious Cold War professional

            But these exist on both sides of the Atlantic

        • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.1.2

          I suggest you read the Dutch report then. Well known shills for the military industrial complex, the Dutch 🙄

          • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.2.1

            And all the wars they fought beside the US in: Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.1.2.1.1

              I’m sorry: you obviously think your drivel can persuade me of something, whereas I’m just expressing my contempt for your self-aggrandising bullshit.

              Don’t forget now.

        • RedLogix 3.1.1.3

          I’m inclined to take the JIT evidence at face value for the time being. There is a high probability that indeed a BUK missile was launched when and where they say it was.

          The big unknown question the JIT report does not address is why? Given MH17 seems to have been re-routed it seems hardly likely the Russians moved the launcher into position days in advance, just to shoot this particular plane down. I struggle to think of a non-tin foily explanation of why they’d want to shoot down a civilian airliner in general.

          Was this just a fuckup? Like Iran Air 655?

          • Psycho Milt 3.1.1.3.1

            It was a fuck-up. The Russians provided them with anti-aircraft weapons to use against the Ukraine air force. They initially thought they’d brought down a Ukraine AF military transport, then the BUK was sent packing tout suite when they found out what they’d actually done.

            • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.3.1.1

              So let’s see the US recon photos of this BUK being moved in and out of position and back over to Russia. Instead of just “social media” posts.

          • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.3.2

            I’m inclined to take the JIT evidence at face value for the time being. There is a high probability that indeed a BUK missile was launched when and where they say it was.

            Such a launch happened in the middle of a fine day.

            Go to youtube and see the exhaust trails left by the practice firings of the BUK missile system.

            The exhaust trail is thousands of feet high and can be see for miles around.

            That exhaust trail would still have been sitting there in the air for tens of thousands of people to see, when the first reports of MH17 crashing into the country side started coming in.

            Where are the live videos/photos/smartphone footage of this missile exhaust trail from that hour of that day.

          • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.3.3

            RL this is what a BUK missile launch looks like

        • Richard Rawshark 3.1.1.4

          Not that i’m an expert on missile guidance system or even the Buk CV, are you?

          However since it’s a tool for war, it would be a bit stupid to have a radar system that the enemy can pin point..being Russia too i’d imagine it’s far more highly complicated a tracking system than a plain old radar. Constantly changing freq etc. short wave lengths maybe microwave, who knows!!!!

          IF awacs can track it, it may not be in their interests to announce it either.

          IDNK, like I say nothings straight forward when dealing with War mongering US or the sly Bear Russia.

          However History has shown me one thing.

          the USA is not to be trusted, as in after the second world war read up on how the US behaved for the time they were the only Nation with the Atomic bomb and how it got SO out of hand, US scientists gave Russia the answer so they could build their own bomb.

          Says a lot about the US>

          Arseholes.

          • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.4.1

            Not that i’m an expert on missile guidance system or even the Buk CV, are you?

            However since it’s a tool for war, it would be a bit stupid to have a radar system that the enemy can pin point..

            Not an expert, but a few basic facts are obvious.

            The BUK missile truck needs full integration with its fully active radar tracking truck to hit a fast moving target at 30,000 plus feet. The missile launcher and the missile itself cannot perform that kind of tracking.

            And of course, US AWACs systems are designed to pick up, identify and classify the strong radar signals from well known and older Russian missile systems like the BUK.

            • McFlock 3.1.1.4.1.1

              lol

              those “basic facts are obvious”, eh?

              How about the idea that these amazing detection systems that are “hundreds of kilometres away” with a margin for error in minutes or seconds (rather than degrees) might be off by tens of kilometres on the ground?

              I love it: you make categorical statements about forward air control, satellite surveillance, and now signals intelligence and electronic warfare, while being the most vocal supporter of the US’ geopolitical opponents. If you met yourself online, you’d call yourself a CIA agent provocateur…

              if you weren’t so patently ignorant about everything you google or get fed by RT.

              • Colonial Viper

                Look it up for yourself. The BUK missile in flight does not carry the radar systems required to track a fast moving high altitude target.

                The missile has to be guided by signals from the active radar missile truck in order to successfully track and hit such a target.

                Further only a crew of fully trained military operators can conduct such an operation.

                Your average former farmer Donbass rebel who picks up an AK47 cannot operate a BUK system in this way.

                • McFlock

                  Lol

                  Nothing of what you said contradicts my comment about the accuracy of the plotting from “hundreds of kilometres away”.

                  And that’s even if they made a radar system t effective up to 140km but was itself detectable at a range several times that, and if that was the only radar operating on that band in the entire region (i.e. southeastern Europe and northwest Asia ) so there were no other radars to complicate the plot, and indeed it was on a band that had no atmospheric signal attenuation issues (think “rain fade” on satellite TV).

                  Basically, these are all RT arguments you’d be parroting if such surveillance actually existed, was released, and pinpointed the launch location with the accuracy of literally all the other evidence uncovered by the JIT. Of course, if the margin for error in the plot overlapped even slightly unoccupied Ukrainian territory, you’d grasp at that straw like it was a parachute harness.

                  As for “fully trained military operators”, well – that flies in the face of Russian military development, but whatever, chief. You’re the one with the Tom Clancy book collection.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    AWACS systems can pinpoint radar emissions down to metre level accuracy for the targetting of precision munitions.

                    Your Sky decoder does fine sifting through the electromagnetic soup to find the signals that it wants, and that’s just a $50 TV decoder, not a hundred million dollar AWACs plane.

                    • McFlock

                      AWACS systems can pinpoint radar emissions down to metre level accuracy for the targetting of precision munitions.

                      From hundreds of kilometres away?
                      Total bullshit.

                      Firstly, that means that the entire suite of anti-radar missiles is redundant: HARM, Shrike etc. Just whack ’em with a lobbed JDAM.
                      Secondly, if they were that accurate they wouldn’t fucking tell you.
                      Thirdly, radar/radio bearing is much more difficult than range because physics.

                      Digital communication signals are designed to be separable, but even then you need to have the dish pointed in roughly the right direction.

                      Try again, Mr Clancy.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      McFlock, just saying that US AWACs aircraft can provide extremely precise targetting information, down to the scale of metres. And particularly if one AWACs were also operating with other real time networked surveillance assets, either another AWACs or satellite data.

                      Triangulation of radio emissions is a very old technology McFlock, two guys with two coat hangers and you are half way there.

                      The AWACs is far more sophisticated.

                    • McFlock

                      Triangulation is old, but it’s still limited by the laws of physics. You know, math. It also involves multiple points of observation, so now the ubiquitous surveillance you attribute to the US is by multiple aircraft lol.

                      The wavelength matters, attenuation matters, the physical layout of the receiver array matters.

                      The error is measured in degrees, minutes and seconds of arc. The farther away the observation was made, the bigger the box. At what range can AWACs locate a radar emission to within ten metres? link pls.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Triangulation is old, but it’s still limited by the laws of physics. You know, math. It also involves multiple points of observation, so now the ubiquitous surveillance you attribute to the US is by multiple aircraft lol.

                      You really don’t understand how AWACS can very quickly and very accurately triangulate point radio sources, do you?

                      You have the basics, but you’re not thinking it through and applying those basics to how an AWACs actually works in the air.

                      Give it a bit of thought and you’ll quickly understand how powerful the AWACS platform is.

                    • McFlock

                      No link to back up your bullshit, I note.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      You’ve already told me that you understand enough about radio energy behaviour to understand how a single AWACS plane in flight can precision locate a point radio energy source hundreds of kilometres away in seconds (or say up to a minute or two).

                      Think it through, McFlock, you too can get it if you apply yourself.

                      Cluetip: don’t treat the AWACS as a single stationary receiver 😉

                    • McFlock

                      And you’ve yet to figure out the minimal effect on angle that even moving completely tangentially to the randomly-acquired target will have from a distance of “hundreds of kilometres”. The missile crew could have gone home to dinner by the time “metres” accurate fix might have been made.

                      At 576km/hr “a minute or two” would maybe take the aircraft 20km tangentially to the target. Assuming that the distance at each observation point is 500km, then the aspect change from the aircraft to the target is 2.2 degrees. Math. It’s your friend.

                      So what’s your degree margin for error at 500km again? Oh, wait, you haven’t even demonstrated that one was in the region yet, let alone its theoretical accuracy. Hell, the entire conflict zone is only a few hundred kilometres square.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      They can get a space probe to locate the Earth, point its antenna back to base and send messages back and forth from 1.2 billion kilometres.

                      In comparison, 2.2 degrees is a gaping wide hole, over four times wider than the full moon in the sky.

                      With the right equipment you can waltz an elephant through that cavernous gap and have room for the rest of the circus.

                      Come now McFlock, its not like you to lose faith in science and technology. Sharpen up, man.

                    • McFlock

                      lol

                      it takes more than “a minute or two” to estimate a probe’s position, though. And the diameter of the earth’s orbit helps.

                      But no, I try and reduce the amount of “faith” I have in science and technology. It’s “knowledge”. You have faith in the ubiquity and omniscience of US airborne surveillance. I’m simply asking what you base that faith on. Do you have any tech manuals, analyses or sources beyond RT that specify even minimum levels of accuracy for plotting a position “within metres” from “hundreds of kilometres” away? Because if they turned the radar off immediately after the aircraft was shot down, your “one or two minutes” is more daydreaming.

                      BTW, you do realise that a tangential path is the absolute best case scenario for plotting the position? If the imaginary airplane was travelling towards the Ukraine at the time of the imaginary detection, there was no imaginary aspect change and your masturbation sorry speculation is even more bullshit.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    On the ‘fully trained operators’ CV is correct – if a BUK were built from the ground up today it might be a different story – but the BUK crew were serving Russian regular officers detached from their duties and attached to the Russian insurgency in the Ukraine. They were there in support of a similarly detached tank unit.

                    • McFlock

                      Frankly, I can go either way on that. Haven’t seen much for either possibility.

                      I mean, I’m not saying you can just find one and make it work, no training required, but I’d be intrigued as to what a solid week’s training would do, especially if you didn’t have to load or maintain it over the long term.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      It’s nothing like a Stinger.

                      BUKs operate in concert with tank formations to protect them from fighter bombers. The crew require years of training because efficiency requires very rapid locks and firing. This is because the BUK itself is a priority target for ground attacking aircraft. Once the BUKs are gone the tanks can be destroyed almost at leisure.

                      A BUK locking on an attacking aircraft has a very short interval (perhaps 2 seconds) before it is itself destroyed. So the pressure under which mistakes might be made is certainly present. BUKs were prevalent throughout the former eastern block and compulsory military service means there are enough former BUK offficers or those who served in formations protected by them around to have outlined their operational role and capacity fairly solidly.

                    • McFlock

                      True, but if the threat environment doesn’t require optimum response times (or you only need to have a couple of launchers in the disputed zone to act as plausible cover against casu belli while you sit just over in Russia plinking away at Ukrainian aircraft), then the required training level goes right down.

                  • The New Student

                    I was just thinking this. All a bit too Clancy up in here.

                    I guess what works in theory always works in practice hey

            • Richard Rawshark 3.1.1.4.1.2

              isn’t the fast moving target your talking of actually mean, supersonic jet fighters? Jeez a bloody cargo plane, frankly an air liners a heavy cargo plane. Plodding along like a turtle compared to a missile’s rocket speed.

      • aj 3.1.2

        Just a small point, but the cruising altitude of commercial airliners is not 38 miles.
        Or 38km.
        More like 10-12km

        Oh – I see CV has it right.

  4. Colonial Viper 4

    Worth remembering that in the last 17 years, Russia has brought itself back from the brink of a crippling economic implosion.

    This crippling dismemberment of Russia was engineered by western financial authorities with the help of the Russian billionaire oligarchs who had stolen massive state property from the Russian people under the incompetent and drunk rule of Boris Yeltsin.

    Some background to what Putin did to put the post-Communist collapsing country back on track, and the background for why the west is so bitter about Putin’s effectiveness in opposing their neoliberal hegemony can be found in this doco.

    • Richard Rawshark 4.1

      I wouldn’t call putin good at anything CV. He’s crooked as the days long and makes John Key look like an alter boy.

      Putin another ex KGB has been living in the past.

      The worlds suffers because of leaders just like him.

      • Colonial Viper 4.1.1

        In just 17 years, Putin took a massive, unfit, bureaucratic, failing state which had adopted western backed neoliberalism holus bolus and which was about to implode into a mess of chaotic balkanized territories, and restored its economic, social and security integrity.

        Putin another ex KGB has been living in the past.

        That’s an unjustifiable comment.

        Just look at the 3 to 4 hour long annual press conference he does live, no teleprompters, in front of both Russian, European and global world media.

        Have you seen any US President, UK PM, or even NZ PM do anything similarly open and transparent?

        How is that KGB like? Or the fact that Putin’s political party United Russia is quite a bit more popular than the old fashioned USSR-fancying Russian Communist party?

        In reality, it is the west who cannot shake themselves free of the Cold War past and see that the world is heading in a multi-polar direction where English speaking countries are not going to have the same overwhelming dominance that they had in the latter 20th century.

        • Richard Rawshark 4.1.1.1

          KGB like he’s EX KGB, well known.

          “Putin was a KGB foreign intelligence officer for 16 years, rising to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel before retiring in 1991 to enter politics in his native Saint Petersburg” -Wikipedia, I know editable, but this is true.

          old school KGB..living in the past.

          I refreshed a conversation you and a few standardista’s had with a Konstatine etc, in 2014? Very interesting points of view.

          I don’t like Putin but in that far right Nazi’s are causing trouble in the Ukraine means to me this is a cold war battleground forming/created.

          This story is complicated, it involves high level politics from tricky Nations and none of what we receive as information should be taken at face value.

          • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.1.1

            Putin is a former KGB foreign services officer, yes, but that’s a long shot from stating he is somehow “living in the past” of KGB and USSR days.

            In fact, every bit of evidence shows that Putin is totally focussed on the future of Russia in a multi polar world.

        • Huginn 4.1.1.2

          What are you talking about?
          Russia’s GDP is less than Spain’s.

      • D'Esterre 4.1.2

        Richard Rawshark: “I wouldn’t call putin good at anything CV. He’s crooked as the days long and makes John Key look like an alter boy.”
        Looks as if you’re in thrall to propaganda there. Uncle Sam wants you to believe these things:that’s the point of the relentless anti-Russian rhetoric from the white house, the state department and uncle Tom Cobbley and all. Those of us who’ve been around a while can remember the exact same things being said about the USSR and whoever was in charge at the time.
        You’re right that he makes the PM look like an altar boy, but not in the way you obviously have in mind: more in the sense of making Key look naive and unsophisticated.
        CV is right about Putin and you are wrong. What you claim about him is propaganda; you certainly aren’t alone in being sucked in by it, however. In the msm, it’s difficult to find anything else.
        Putin has been remarkably forebearing in the face of relentless western aggression, in eastern Europe in particular.
        He isn’t the first Russian leader to take a more sophisticated approach than western equivalents. You may be too young to recall the Cuban missile crisis: I surely am not! It was not until relatively recently, reading Noam Chomsky, that I learned the truth about how that played out. We have Krushchev to thank for nuclear war being averted. We believed it was Kennedy’s doing, because that was what we were told by the media. It was not. And not the hotheads in the Pentagon, either. It’s a story worth reading: I recommend it to you.

    • Relevance? Under Putin the trains run on time, true. Please explain the bit where that premise leads to the conclusion “Putin didn’t send military personnel and equipment into Ukraine to support ethnic Russian separatists there.” Or is your argument “Putin made the trains run on time, so the occasional neighbour invaded or airliner shot down is a small price to pay.”

      • Colonial Viper 4.2.1

        NATO/US were determined to unconstitutionally regime change Ukraine and use the entire country against Russia by bringing NATO right up to Russia’s borders.

        And yes, Russia has assisted the people of the Donbass to resist attacks on civilian areas from Kiev government military forces and paramilitaries.

        • Psycho Milt 4.2.1.1

          The question was, what is the relevance of all this to the shooting down of this airliner? The actual topic of the post? Are you claiming it has substantive relevance to the incident in question, or are you posting it as exculpatory material?

    • Stuart Munro 4.3

      Don’t repose all your faith in the ‘foreign bankers crippled Russia’ argument, Soviet things were notoriously dysunctional.

      An illustration – deepsea fishing vessels

      Japanese 67m crew 29 processing capacity 360 tonnes a day.
      English/NZ 88m crew 35 processing capacity 180 tonnes a day
      Russian 105 m 80 crew processing capacity 120 tonnes a day.

      (The example is an average Russian vessel – the worst had a crew of 88 and struggled to process 30 tonnes a day)

      Russian vessels had sound heavy engineering but inferior factories. Oddly, in spite of rock bottom labour prices in Russia their ships are frequently refitted in Busan. It’s faster and thus cheaper.

  5. mikesh 6

    I cannot see why Russia would be interested in shooting down a commercial airline. Of course the Ukranian rebels may have downed it by mistake but, even if that’s true, Putin and/or Russia can not reasonably be blamed. But, in any case, Russia claims that the area from which the missile was fired was not under the control of the rebel forces.

  6. Stuart Munro 7

    In fact this is quite old news – the evidence has been out for years on Bellingcat.

    https://www.bellingcat.com/tag/mh17/

    Some of the best early evidence was (quickly deleted) facebook posts from the crew who shot it down. The whole topic of journalism by open source net mining has become quite promising as Bellingcat had identified the perpetrators within days.

    This is not the first time Russia has shot down a civilian airliner either.

    Probably it was a mistake – but Russia cheerfully makes such mistakes. And it never apologises for them.

    On the whole the current bombing of Syrian non-combatants is probably a more serious war crime. There is no mistake there, and it is a pattern of activity, not an isolated event.

    • Colonial Viper 7.1

      The BUK is a Russian manufactured missile system, also in service with Ukranian forces, but that is quite different to saying that Russia shot down MH17, and also completely different to saying that President Putin ordered the shoot down of MH17.

      • Psycho Milt 7.1.1

        The fact that the Ukraine military is also kitted out with BUKs is a red herring – Putin didn’t provide any air support for the rebels because it would kill plausible deniability, so there was no air threat for Ukraine to defend against. I expect that if people can construct a conspiracy theory that has the US government responsible for the WTC attack, they can construct one in which the Ukraine government downs an airliner to make Russia look bad, but Occam’s Razor has an objection to raise about that.

        Also: has anyone suggested Vladimir Putin ordered the shooting down of any airliner, ever? Sounds like a straw man to me.

        • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1.1

          …but Occam’s Razor has an objection to raise about that.

          Merely mentioning Occam’s Razor is neither argument nor proof.

          • McFlock 7.1.1.1.1

            Actually, it is an implied argument. And given that Occam’s Razor is about drawing the most likely conclusion amid a lack of certainty, it doesn’t deal with “proof”.

            It’s about drawing the conclusion that is most likely to be correct in the absence of proof, in fact.

            • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1.1.1.1

              It’s about drawing the conclusion that is most likely to be correct in the absence of proof, in fact.

              No, really, it isn’t. It’s about choosing between competing theories saying that you should choose the one with the least assumptions and the most evidence.

              And it certainly doesn’t prove that the more complex theory is the wrong one.

              • McFlock

                Agreed, it proves nothing.

                It just says which hypothesis it is reasonable to select as the most likely.

          • Psycho Milt 7.1.1.1.2

            Then let me spell out the issue Occam’s Razor has with your conspiracy:

            Theory 1 (cock-up): The Ukrainian separatists were given fancy anti-aircraft weaponry by their Russian backers so they could shoot down government military transports, but took out a commercial airliner by mistake. Russians promptly confiscated the weaponry before these loons could do any more damage with it.

            Evidence for Theory 1: the JIT report is full of it, but much of it comes down to intercepted communications of the perpetrators and eye-witness reports.

            Theory 2 (conspiracy): The Ukrainian government concocted a dastardly plot to shoot down a commercial airliner and blame it on the Russians. The conspiracy maintained 100% secrecy, the execution of it went perfectly as scheduled, and all evidence of Ukrainian government involvement was successfully hidden from the investigating teams.

            Evidence for Theory 2: personal conviction of Putin supporters that this must be what happened.

            One of these theories involves far greater complexity than the other to explain the same result and has no evidence to support it (hint: it’s Theory 2). Occam’s Razor says that one should be biffed as unlikely to be useful.

            • Cemetery Jones 7.1.1.1.2.1

              I think the motivation you seek for Theory 2 would hinge not on some kind of tinfoily false flag attack to bring down an airliner and blame Russia. Rather, I would look to the suggestion that Vladimir Putin’s flight back from the BRICS summit in Brazil was passing through the region; we know that two Ukranian jets were nearby, and that they were close enough to observe a white airliner with blue and red livery – a colour scheme shared by Russia and Malaysia Airlines. Very different shades of blue close up, but a very similar stripe pattern at c.35-40,000 feet?

              A request to close several lanes of airspace over Eastern Europe had been made by Russia, so this information was out there for Ukraine to make use of. It’s still a bit tinfoily, but if we’re shooting for Occam, there remains the question of how Russia managed to train a bunch of skinheads and coal miners in operating an incredibly complex guided missile system which ordinarily takes a long period of operational training to use. Ukraine already had people capable of operating this system – and a motivation to use it on the day. This could far more easily be the result of a tactical masterstroke going beyond pear shaped. And given that the state department had overconfident idiots like Victoria ‘fuck the EU’ Nuland in charge, I’d say that there’s both motivation and likelihood far in excess of ‘noob rebels with deadly toys done fucked this one up’.

              • Draco T Bastard

                It’s still a bit tinfoily, but if we’re shooting for Occam, there remains the question of how Russia managed to train a bunch of skinheads and coal miners in operating an incredibly complex guided missile system which ordinarily takes a long period of operational training to use.

                One wonders just how difficult it is to use. I imagine the process is something like this:

                * Detect aircraft via radar
                * Select target on the radar screen – probably using a mouse
                * Click fire

                Now, before you get all up in arms about that, consider that you’re using that incredibly complex machine on your desk to read and write to this blog. The majority of people don’t bother with a long period of operational training to use said incredibly complex machine and, in fact, it’s been made so that people can use it without such training.

                • I’m going to assert based on the very limited footage that I’ve seen that operating a BUK is most definitely not as simple as

                  * Detect aircraft via radar
                  * Select target on the radar screen – probably using a mouse
                  * Click fire

                  I’d imagine that knowing *how* to ‘detect aircraft via radar’ probably doesn’t go like this:

                  1. turn on radar
                  2. click mouse on dotty bit
                  3. ??????????????????????
                  4. MH17 disaster is Putin’s fault

              • A Ukrainian plot to assassinate Vladimir Putin is way too tinfoilly for me.

                The propaganda tends to portray the Ukrainian separatists as ordinary civilians having taken up arms for their homeland etc, but a lot of them had done military service and there were plenty with previous combat experience, as the Ukrainian military’s defeats at Donetsk airport and other places showed. There’s nothing to say that locals were completely incapable of operating BUK launchers.

                • The airport defeat was the kind of stuff I’d expect – a mixture of having the nads to go door to door under fire combined with some basic advice from the Russians on how to kettle enemy pockets and grind them out. A large militia seasoned with some ex-ncos who can give them a quick run through basic small unit tactics, a bit of rifle discipline to avoid fragging one another, or even enough drill to competently operate mortars and light artillery is more than a league or two shy of getting up and running that kind of equipment though.

                  But as noted above, that’s based on my *assumption* that acquiring a target with that gear would be very difficult without extensive training, and even harder to do if we assume that they were out to take down those Ukrainian fighter jets which were up at the time. If you fuck around with radar that powerful without really knowing what you’re doing, I’d imagine that a couple of Sukhois on the prowl up above are going to notice that they’re being pinged and respond by jamming and/or going on the offensive well before you’ve got a lock.

                • Stuart Munro

                  The cockup theory works better.

                  For some reason lending aircraft to Russian backed Ukrainian insurgents was considered an undesirable escalation – perhaps because it might have triggered US air intervention. The Ukraine had fielded one or two military aircraft at unpredictable rearm/repair intervals. The BUK was there to remove them from play.

            • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1.1.2.2

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

              n science, Occam’s razor is used as a heuristic technique (discovery tool) to guide scientists in the development of theoretical models, rather than as an arbiter between published models.[1][2] In the scientific method, Occam’s razor is not considered an irrefutable principle of logic or a scientific result; the preference for simplicity in the scientific method is based on the falsifiability criterion.

              Bold mine.

              • I’m not sure how my post would be interpreted as a suggestion that it was irrefutable or scientific? I was offering an alternative to one of Milt’s two options.

                But I’m glad you took the time to do whatever it is you were doing there.

              • Sure it’s not irrefutable principle of logic or a scientific result – but if you’re trying to decide which of two explanations for something is more likely, it’s a fucking handy piece of kit.

        • mikesh 7.1.1.2

          There was also a suggestion, albeit speculative, that whoever shot down MH 17 thought that it was carrying Vladimir Putin who was returning from a conference in Europe about that time.

      • Stuart Munro 7.1.2

        Pitifully weak distraction.

        The Russian unit concerned performed victory aerobatics and bragged about it on facebook immediately afterward. Only later did they discover they’d downed a civilian craft and take it all down.

        You really need to read the evidence. RT will only make a fool of you.

        • Colonial Viper 7.1.2.1

          The Russian unit concerned

          If it really was a “Russian (military) unit” they would not be posting operational information on Face Book.

          According to the investigation report they were busy immediately packing up their missile system on to a Volvo truck to take back to Russia.

          • Stuart Munro 7.1.2.1.1

            Your assumptions notwithstanding in fact they did.

            But they didn’t depart quite immediately – initially they thought they had downed a Ukranian fighter – they’d’ve been quite happy to get another.

            • Stuart Munro 7.1.2.1.1.1

              It should be borne in mind that for Russian regular forces the Ukraine has been like Iraq 1 – the Turkey Shoot as they called it. The strictest military discipline was not observed initially.

              It’s another war, and infantry are not a prestige service like BUKs, but Chechen resistance fighters regularly bought guns from serving Russian soldiers. The professionalism of Russian forces is not uniformly perfect, particularly well outside the theatre of conflict.

            • Colonial Viper 7.1.2.1.1.2

              But they didn’t depart quite immediately – initially they thought they had downed a Ukranian fighter – they’d’ve been quite happy to get another.

              How would you know what they thought? From that same Face Book post which was actually posted by – who knows?

              What kind of Ukranian fighter jet operating in the Donbass conflict cruises at 30,000 feet? The ground attack SU25s that Kiev had been using against the rebels do not operate at 30,000 feet.

              And the BUK missile system cannot lock on to a target that high without its integrated radar truck.

              • Stuart Munro

                Russian language discussion CV.

                Prior to the discovery that it was MH17 they were pretty relaxed.

                ’30 000 ft’ The BUK was fully set up. They were essentially an ambush for one of the Ukranian planes if one showed up. The ‘Rebels’ (detached Russian regular forces) did not usually have attached BUKs.

                Put yourself in the shoes of the BUK commander – the blip is not friendly. You have about two seconds to fire if it’s hostile or it will get you first. It’s flying at an unusual altitude or on an unexpected course – you might easily attribute that to a failed enemy ruse.

                The radar profile of a commercial airliner is a little easier to acquire than that of a fighter/bomber – reflective surface area would be substantially greater – this might extend ordinary target parameters somewhat.

                • Colonial Viper

                  A fully set up BUK installation can identify the size and type of plane, the number of engines, etc.

                  A plane on a non evasive course travelling 900 km/h at 30,000 feet on a heading from Ukraine into Russian airspace is not any kind of threat to ground forces.

                  The SU25 ground attack craft that the Kiev regime had been using conduct their ground attack missions do so from under 10,000 feet, and cannot even fly at 30,000 feet.

                  It makes me believe that if MH17 was indeed shot down by a BUK system, the highly military trained BUK crew deliberately and knowingly targetted a commercial airliner with the aim of bringing it down on Ukranian territory and killing everyone onboard.

                  • Lloyd

                    So the US Navy would never shoot down an Iranian Airbus airliner from one of their sophisticated Aegis ships? After all the Aegis ships had better radar than any BUK launch system. The US Navy could never mix the radar signal of an airbus for a MIG fighter, could they?
                    Whoops, sorry about that….

                    And while we are talking about Occam’s razor, why would a bunch of untrained Ukrainian irregulars be given the operation of a BUK system when trained Russian “volunteers” could do the same job?

                    Past history has shown that trained men in stressful situations will interpret data that may or may not be a threat usually as a threat, and act accordingly. Even if the radar showed a civilian airliner, the Russian BUK crew appear to have assessed the aircraft as either a Ukrainian fighter or as a Ukrainian transport/reconnaissance aircraft and therefore a “legitimate” target.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      The US Navy could never mix the radar signal of an airbus for a MIG fighter, could they?
                      Whoops, sorry about that….

                      What do the actions of an overly aggressive US Navy Captain have to do with the Russian armed forces?

                      why would a bunch of untrained Ukrainian irregulars be given the operation of a BUK system when trained Russian “volunteers” could do the same job?

                      Or Ukranian military or paramilitary specialists. Or foreign military specialists.

                      Past history has shown that trained men in stressful situations will interpret data that may or may not be a threat usually as a threat, and act accordingly.

                      What “stressful situation” are you referring to?

                    • What do the actions of an overly aggressive US Navy Captain have to do with the Russian armed forces?

                      Let me spell it out for you: it totally refutes your claim that operators of sophisticated anti-aircraft systems wouldn’t mistake a civilian airliner for a military aircraft.

                      Or Ukranian military or paramilitary specialists. Or foreign military specialists.

                      If there were any evidence at all for that, sure. Only, there’s no evidence for that.

                      What “stressful situation” are you referring to?

                      You may be under the fanciful impression that you’d not find it stressful to be operating an anti-aircraft system in a combat zone in which the enemy has 100% air superiority, but the rest of us are less delusional.

                    • D'Esterre

                      Lloyd: “The US Navy could never mix the radar signal of an airbus for a MIG fighter, could they?”

                      In virtue of what would you suppose that they did? Do you believe what the US says about that incident being a mistake?

  7. mauī 8

    So how come one side (Ukraine) is one of the 5 nations on the Joint Investigation Team that ran the investigation, while the other side, Russia is completely excluded. Fair, unbiased investigation, yeah right.

    But yeah this post is a good swipe at CV and the rest of the far-left communists so well done…

    • According to Russia it was nothing to do with them, so why would they be on the investigation panel?

      • mauī 8.1.1

        I’m not saying they should be, just pointing out the unfairness of the investigation. Considering Russia designed/made the BUK missile murder weapon you would think it would be a good idea to atleast get some cooperation with them if you’re truly trying to find the answers.

        • te reo putake 8.1.1.1

          But that assumes a BUK was involved. That’s something Russia denied at the time, claiming it was more likely MH17 had been shot down by the Ukrainian military. So we go back to my original point, why would a country completely uninvolved in the killings want to be on the investigation panel?

          I understand Russia did cooperate with the investigation and that may have included technical advice about the weapon used to shoot the plane down. But clearly, they were never going to just admit what happened. Which, to my mind is that they gifted the BUK to the rebels, expecting it to be used against the Ukrainians. And once it was realised it had been used against a civilian plane, they took the gift back pronto.

          So cock up, rather than deliberate. Manslaughter, rather than murder? But still Russia’s responsibility.

          • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1.1

            But that assumes a BUK was involved. That’s something Russia denied at the time, claiming it was more likely MH17 had been shot down by the Ukrainian military. So we go back to my original point, why would a country completely uninvolved in the killings want to be on the investigation panel?

            The Dutch investigation panel concluded 18 months ago that it was a BUK transported from Russia that shot down MH17.

            At that point, Russian technical specialists should have been brought in to confirm or disprove those findings.

            • McFlock 8.1.1.1.1.1

              That’s like saying that you need a representative from Smith & Wesson to confirm the murder weapon used in a shooting.

              The JIT compared the debris from the crash site with BUK missiles and the debris thereof, even doing their own explosions of said missiles. What would the Russians do: argue that their widely-sold air defense system can’t even shot down a civilian airliner flying a planned course?

              • Colonial Viper

                That’s like saying that you need a representative from Smith & Wesson to confirm the murder weapon used in a shooting.

                No one has more data on the characteristics, types, and models of BUK missiles and warheads than the designers and manufacturers of the missile system.

                Despite what you say, to me that would seem to be valuable and useful knowledge to a full and impartial investigation.

                • McFlock

                  Or you could just buy your own and make the comparison. Which they did.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    OK then I’ll bite, after obtaining a missile, how did the JIT correctly simulate the effect of a BUK warhead exploding on a civilian Boeing 777 travelling 900km/h at 30,000 feet?

                    • McFlock

                      What “effect” are you demanding they simulate?

                      If they were just after size and composition of missile fragmentation to compare with the fragments they picked out of the pilots, four of your characteristics are irrelevant to the study.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      So they weren’t actually bothering to realistically test anything? Just draw up some bullshit protocol to say that they had done it, even though it matches nothing of the conditions of what happened to MH17?

                    • McFlock

                      Dunno, I have read as much or the report as you have (none).

                      Would you suggest they fill the aircraft with civilians as well? I suspect they were merely seeking to examine one small aspect of the incident, rather than duplicate the entire tragedy.

            • Stuart Munro 8.1.1.1.1.2

              Unnecessary – BUK damage is readily discernable from the physical evidence. No cannon holes – single event catatrophic destruction of airliner – not the fighter Russia photoshopped into early videos.

          • mauī 8.1.1.1.2

            So we go back to my original point, why would a country completely uninvolved in the killings want to be on the investigation panel?

            That’s interesting in terms of Ukraine. Why was one country that was involved in conflict in the area investigating a probable war crime while the other side was excluded?

            You don’t seem to want to acknowledge that.

      • Colonial Viper 8.1.2

        Western media fingers pointed at Russia while the wreckage was still burning.

        So this is a somewhat disingenuous reply which doesn’t explain why Russia’s requests to be a core party to the investigation was turned down.

        Given that the BUK is a Russian made system co-operation with the Russians in truly determining whether a BUK was involved in the shootdown would have been critical.

  8. TheExtremist 9

    Yeah…but Hillary!!!!

  9. “The Putinist oligarchy of ex KGB agents has privatised the economy”

    Ummmmm, ever heard of (Clinton & Bush’s) comrade Yeltsin?

    • Yes. That’s the bloke who initially made Putin Prime Minister, then President. What’s your point?

      • I think you know, but I’ll spell it out.

        You said, “The Putinist oligarchy of ex KGB agents has privatised the economy”.

        Reality said, “Yeltsin’s program of radical, market-oriented reform came to be known as a “shock therapy”. It was based on the recommendations of the IMF and a group of top American economists, including Larry Summers.[55][56] The result was disastrous, with real GDP falling by more than 40% by 1999, hyperinflation which wiped out personal savings, crime and destitution spreading rapidly.[57][58]”

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Russia#Transition_to_market_economy_.281991.E2.80.9398.29

        See subheading on Economy, Russia, Market, Transition to, 1991-98. We can then compare this to your claim about Putin, Vladimir, Russia, Prime Minister of 1999-2000; President of 2000-2008, 2012-present), and how his ‘oligarchy of ex KBG agents’ were the ones who ‘privatised the economy’.

  10. james 11

    “So here’s my challenge. Arrest Putin. I’ll donate $500 to anyone who successfully performs a citizen’s arrest on Vladimir Putin. Anywhere, any time.”

    And what do you think would happen to anyone who tried to collect on this?

  11. Morrissey 12

    Te Reo, as you are well aware, the United States and its vassal states (United Kingdom, Saudi Arabia, Turkey) have armed and diplomatically supported Al Qaeda in Syria since 2011. Russia—for whatever reason— is supporting the constitutional and democratically elected government against a bloody, fanatical insurrection.

    There is a wide range of informed writing on this that you, like everyone else, can instantly access, yet you for some reason continue to channel the crudest propaganda.

    You have made the wrong choice here, my friend, just as you did with your lionization of Tony Benn’s foolish renegade son.

    • Relevance to the OP? I’ll grant you, it does tangentially refer to Putin’s war crimes in Syria, but the post is about the JIT report on the downing of MH17.

      • Colonial Viper 12.1.1

        That the MH17 investigation and in fact the whole Ukraine coup is part of a larger effort to destabilise those countries which believe in a unipolar world which isn’t run by US neocon exceptionalists.

        • Psycho Milt 12.1.1.1

          Those damn lizard people! They even got to the air accident investigation teams!

          • Colonial Viper 12.1.1.1.1

            it’s not an “air investigation team”, “air investigation teams” have no knowledge about tracking military vehicles and intercepting mlitary communications.

        • Stuart Munro 12.1.1.2

          Your denial of Russia’s proven involvement in the shooting down of MH17 only establishes your credulity.

          The evidence has been in for years.

          None of the fake stories Russia invented have any credibility.

          Not the “It was a plane” line.

          Not the “Ukrainians have BUKs” line.

          And certainly not the “It’s all a US plot” line.

          You have to start from the truth – Russia shot down MH17. Only then do you get to decide what is propaganda.

          • Colonial Viper 12.1.1.2.1

            In fact its been so clear for so long that Russia shot down MH17 on Putin’s orders, because CNN/Pentagon said so.

            Amazing if its so clear to you why it’s taken the investigators a full 27 months from the shoot down of the plane to come up yet again with the same story that they had told the media they had decided on more than a year ago (April 2015 if not before).

            • Stuart Munro 12.1.1.2.1.1

              Right – because everything that happens in the Ukraine was made to happen by the US – the Russian regular force ‘rebels’ were only there by coincidence.

              The US does busily promote its interest in some places. So does Russia. A nuanced interpretation would identify the principal activities of each of them.

              The delay is the legal proceedings lag. The main facts were in within a few weeks – but they must be compiled exhaustively because the guilty party, Russia, maintains its innocence and launches new distractions almost monthly. But they blew it early by releasing outrageous lies like the photoshopped fighter footage – few can take them seriously after displaying such a blatant disregard for truth.

      • Paul 12.1.2

        There is a propaganda war going on over the Ukraine.
        You didnt know that?

    • Paul 12.2

      Interestingly Checkpoint channelled such crude propaganda – this time on Syria – a couple of days ago.
      Would expect better from RNZ.

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/201817604/-russia-does-not-need-to-win-these-wars,-it-just-can't-lose

      • Morrissey 12.2.1

        John Campbell’s indolence is really bothering me. A couple of months ago, in a fawning interview with Helen Clark, he said, in a deadly serious tone of voice, “Russia is the world’s problem child”.

        I also heard his little performance on Tuesday, Paul, and I was appalled by his lack of knowledge as well as his trademark feigned compassion.

        • Cemetery Jones 12.2.1.1

          Yeah, that interview was the pits. The motivations that American muppet ascribed to Vladimir Putin were absolutely hilarious.

          EDIT: Or, would be hilarious, if so much wasn’t riding on it being uncritically swallowed by a journalist who once upon a time wouldn’t let Key or Clarke get their bs past him, let alone some neocon think-tanker.

    • Liberal Realist 12.3

      + 100

  12. Paul 13

    Te Reo, was this post mainly written for the purpose of provoking cv?
    Not sure your support of the neo-con agenda is defensible.
    After what we know from Iraq and Libya, I would have thought you’d be a little more circumspect in your cheerleading for the US.

    • Get a grip, Paul. I don’t support the ‘neo con agenda’ whatever that might be to you. And the US doesn’t even get a mention in the post, let alone a cheer. Please don’t stray into telling authors what to write territory or put words in my mouth. Ok?

      • Colonial Viper 13.1.1

        FYI

        the neocon agenda is the demonisation, destablisation and eventual destruction of all current and potential geopolitical rivals to the USA as the uncontested unipolar world power.

        • te reo putake 13.1.1.1

          Cheers. Clearly, I do not support the neo-con agenda as described, even if it’s just an unproven fantasy.

        • Paul 13.1.1.2

          Sounds mighty like the script of this post.

          • Colonial Viper 13.1.1.2.1

            The US spends billions overthrowing the Ukranian govt – that Russia has to deal with the resulting mess on its doorstep is Russia’s fault.

            That US spends billions overthrowing the Syrian govt – that Russia has to deal with the resulting mess on its doorstep is Russia’s fault.

            The US spends billions overthrowing the Libyan govt – that Russia has to deal with the resulting mess on its doorstep is Russia’s fault.

            The US spends billions overthrowing the Iraqi govt – that Russia has to deal with the resulting mess on its doorstep is Russia’s fault.

            And so on.

            • Psycho Milt 13.1.1.2.1.1

              US contribution to the Libyan civil war: imposition of a no-fly zone and some air strikes, reluctantly at the behest of their European allies.

              US contribution to the Syrian civil war: fuck all until recently.

              US contribution to the overthrow of Russia’s guy in Ukraine: a willingness by local US staff to take more credit for it than is warranted.

              It’s like someone who sees the invisible hand of the Illuminati in everything that happens.

              • Paul

                You’re kidding right?

                • Colonial Viper

                  Psycho Milt has now created a whole new category of warfare: “reluctant airstrikes.”

                  We can add this to the US concept of “humanitarian war.”

              • Liberal Realist

                Seriously? Who do you think controls NATO? Who bombed the shit out of Libya? The empire did, along with it’s compliant vassals.

                Syria. Who organised the transfer of weapons from Libya to Syria? The empire. What happened next? Proxy pipeline war. Assad must go because he said no. The Gulf Emirs must have been enraged.

                Ukraine. US $5,000,000,000 spent. Nuland & Payette had a nice chat didn’t they. Who was it Nuland wanted? ‘Yats’, he’s our guy. Svoboda an openly fascist party in government. Bandera worship from the nicest sort of people eh?

                Nothing much invisible than perhaps the copious amounts of koolaide that must have been consumed to believe the empire and it’s media quislings.

  13. Colonial Viper 14

    From Forbes Magazine

    The Joint Investigation Team (JIT), comprised of investigators from Belgium, Australia, Ukraine, Malaysia and the Netherlands, is charged with bringing the “perpetrators of the attack on MH17 (Malaysian Airlines Flight 17) to justice.”

    The JIT has issued a YouTube video that traces the path of the BUK missile that allegedly shot down MH17 from its entry from Russia into eastern Ukraine, to its location near the crash site, and to its hasty retreat back into Russia.

    Except that Forbes published this in April 2015.

    It seems that this particular investigation had already decided long ago what had happened to MH17.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2015/04/02/is-the-mh17-joint-investigation-team-avoiding-the-question-of-kremlin-guilt/#4d27ad274974

  14. JonL 15

    Well, a year and a half and this is what they ca
    me up with! Struggling to somehow pin the blame on Russia in a credible way…..it’s a wonder they didnt claim Putin drove the getaway truck in this US and NATO directed mishmash in it’s continued onslaught on Russia. If there was any hard evidence from the US it would have been plastered over the media within hours-there wasn’t. The whole disgusting episode is purely political and western authorities don’t give a damn about the victims other than as pawns in their disgusting power games…which currently centre around the Russian Bogeyman who won’t give in and accept Western domination

    • Colonial Viper 15.1

      July 2014 was when MH17 was shot down.

      So this is what they have taken ~27 months to come up with.

      Of course they had already decided earlier last year that it was a BUK missile system which had driven from Russia, shot down the plane, then driven back across to Russia immediately afterwards.

  15. Morrissey 16

    If you are interested in informing yourself about the propaganda war being run by the United States and the United Kingdom, you will not simply accept what you hear mouthed by the likes of John Campbell, Greg Boyed or [insert name of any vacuous television/radio newsreader here].

    If you are serious, you will read the work of serious scholars and serious journalists. There is none better than Glenn Greenwald….

    https://theintercept.com/2015/10/26/bbc-protects-uks-close-ally-saudi-arabia-with-incredibly-dishonest-and-biased-editing/

  16. DISTURBED 17

    Agreed Colonial viper.

    Guess the author didn’t see RT responses yesterday?

    https://www.rt.com/news/360963-mh17-probe-ukraine-internet/

    The long awaited Russian Government report also came out yesterday showing evidence that the evidence released by the Dutch report showed only old (unconfirmed -their words) pictures of the wrong equipment of BUK missiles that were not in production at the time of the aircraft downing so this evidence was very suspect.

    So if you are now siding with the Germans who are in charge of this campaign to go to war with Russia please remember the past that Germany wanted this all along to be a war to rid Russia finally.

    The old NAZI guard is still active in Germany according to DW TV the German foreign TV service so don’t fall into their trap and waste our soldiers lives based on lies and propaganda.

    https://www.rt.com/news/360963-mh17-probe-ukraine-internet/

    MH17 int’l probe’s only sources are Ukrainian intel & internet – Russian MoD
    Published time: 28 Sep, 2016 15:36
    Edited time: 28 Sep, 2016 16:37
    The international investigators relied only on data provided by the Ukrainian military and from the internet, a Russian military spokesperson said Wednesday. He added that no Russian missile systems have ever crossed into Ukraine.

    Members of a joint investigation team present the preliminary results of the criminal investigation into the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 , in Nieuwegein, on September 28, 2016.© Emmanuel DunandMH17 shot down by rebels using Buk system brought from Russia – int’l investigators
    “No Russian missile systems including ‘BUK’ have ever crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border,” spokesman for the Russian Defense Ministry Major-General Igor Konashenkov said.

    The official reacted to the findings of the Dutch-led Joint Investigative Team (JIT), which issued its report earlier on Wednesday. The JIT claimed that the Malaysian Boeing was downed by a BUK surface-to-air missile launched from a rebel-held area in eastern Ukraine and that the respective missile system had come from Russia.

    That theory was countered in today’s presentation by the Russian BUK producer Almaz-Antey, who stressed that three of its experiments showed the most likely launch site was in the area held by the Ukrainian Army.

    Konashenkov also cast doubts over the sources used by the JIT.
    “All the data that has been presented today at the briefing of the investigative group comes from two main sources: the internet and Ukrainian intelligence services. Therefore, the objectivity of the information and, consequently, the basis for their conclusions cannot but raise doubts.”

    READ MORE: Int’l investigators allowed Ukraine to fabricate MH17 evidence – Russia

    Konashenkov stressed that the claims made by the JIT on Wednesday require rock-solid proof.

    “The serious findings that have been made public require serious argumentation and – what’s more important – facts.”

    The Defense Ministry spokesperson also demanded from the international investigators the release of the radar data from the Ukrainian side.

    “On Monday, we revealed to the global public the Russian radar data on the situation in the air on the day of the disaster on July 17, 2014. This data cannot be refuted by anything – only confirmed by the similar data of the air situation from the Ukrainian radars,” Konashenkov said.

    Konashenkov signaled that Moscow is willing to contribute to the inquiry.

    “We are very interested in conducting an objective investigation to identify the real perpetrators of the incident on July 17, 2014.

    “And we will continue to provide all the necessary assistance,” he said.

    • So if you are now siding with the Germans who are in charge of this campaign to go to war with Russia…

      Seriously, what the fuck?

      “We are very interested in conducting an objective investigation to identify the real perpetrators of the incident on July 17, 2014.

      Maybe Konashenkov should contact OJ so he can get some tips on maintaining a vigorous and unceasing search for the real killer.

      • DISTURBED 17.1.1

        The NATO General Secretary Jens Stoltenberg is a relative of a German officer in the NAZI Party during the Hitler war.

        He is the one rattling the sword and massing 40 000 NATO troops around western Russia’s border right now,

        Do you want war?

        Not me

        I did my Army time, and know what to expect of war, do you?

        I said Germans are edging everyone on to start a war with Russia!

        I am not on Germany’s side, they cant forget how Russia cost them the last war loss.

        • Colonial Viper 17.1.1.1

          If the Germans had any brains, they would understand that a combination of German high technology and industrial capacity, and Russian raw materials and energy resources, would deliver a combination transforming the two of them into the prime global economic powerhouse of the world.

          The United States cannot afford for this strategic partnership to happen however, so ratcheting up tensions and sabre rattling it is.

          • Psycho Milt 17.1.1.1.1

            If the Germans had any brains, they would understand that a combination of German high technology and industrial capacity, and Russian raw materials and energy resources, would deliver a combination transforming the two of them into the prime global economic powerhouse of the world.

            Fortunately, the Germans are not short of brains. There are very few of them who’d be keen on rejecting their fellow liberal democrats in western Europe so they could forge an alliance with a right-wing nationalist authoritarian dictatorship in pursuit of global domination. Bad memories and all that.

        • Psycho Milt 17.1.1.2

          The NATO General Secretary Jens Stoltenberg is a relative of a German officer in the NAZI Party during the Hitler war.

          Quite possibly – it would hardly be surprising. Likewise, Russia is full of relatives of Red Army officers who were in the COMMUNIST Party during WW2. It’s a true but useless piece of information.

          He is the one rattling the sword and massing 40 000 NATO troops around western Russia’s border right now,

          “Massing” 40,000 troops? You do know how long Russia’s western border is, right? Hitler put upwards of 1,500,000 Axis troops on that border in June 1941, and it was a woefully inadequate force. Still, if Stoltenberg one day does arrange for another 1,460,000 NATO troops to head for the border, that would be pretty fucking suspicious.

          …they cant forget how Russia cost them the last war loss.

          Let me guess – you haven’t met many Germans, have you?

  17. JonL 18

    Te Reo Putake……your knowledge of Russian history and psychology is abysmal…..did you glean it all from Fox news and all of it’s ilk. It is certainly bereft of facts.

    • Hey, bud. I’ve been there, though not for many years. I speak a smattering of the language (badly) and I’ve been a keen Russophile since I was a kid. One thing I know for sure is that there is no ‘Russian psychology’. They’re way too diverse a country for there to be a common way of seeing the world.

      • Colonial Viper 18.1.1

        If you have been any kind of Russophile for years, then you’ll understand how Russia has suffered from major western invasions of their land from Europe, and how they are not going to tolerate German and French troops on their doorstep again.

        Also, you’ll understand the conservative nature of Russian society which stems back to both Islamic and Orthodox influences stretching centuries ago.

        • Te Reo Putake 18.1.1.1

          Yeah, nah. As I said above, there is no single anything in Russia. And they’re absolutely going to have to tolerate German and French troops on their doorstep, because there’s nothing they can do about it. They’re strong enough to bully the little states around them, but they’re never going to challenge the west directly.

          • Colonial Viper 18.1.1.1.1

            You’re an odd kind of Russophile, just like you’re an odd kind of Marxist.

            You should check the meanings of those words, I don’t think they mean what you think they mean.

            • te reo putake 18.1.1.1.1.1

              I gracefully accept your intellectual surrender, CV. You might like to read some Marx yourself, it might do you some good. But as a bourgeois businessman with a profound hatred of working people you might want to skip Lenin because his recipe for dealing with righties like yourself is just a wee bit challenging. But that’s Russki’s for ya. Not much subtlety when it comes to sorting the wheat from the chaff.

              • Colonial Viper

                No really, you’re actually quite shit at the things that you claim to be good at or pretend to be into.

                These current examples serve to make my point.

                You do know that being a Russophile is supposed to mean that you have an appreciation for those things Russian, and that being a Marxist means that you are supposed to support the ideas and concepts of Marxism, right?

                You’re not supposed to sell out on them or despise them or belittle them. Because that’s like, the OPPOSITE, of what you claim to be.

                Just checking, because I don’t think these words mean what you think they mean.

                • te reo putake

                  You probably should look both words up. Russophile does not mean uncritical devotion and it doesn’t preclude disliking the government of the day. You’re hopelessly wrong. And with regards to Marx, I’m hardly going to take advice from someone who hasn’t read a word of the man, let alone understood the politics. Stick to fleecing the gullible.

          • One Two 18.1.1.1.2

            “They’re strong enough to bully the little states around them, but they’re never going to challenge the west directly”

            It takes a confused soul to make a statement such as this

            Dear oh dear

            • te reo putake 18.1.1.1.2.1

              And yet the statement remains factually correct. How confusing for you 😉

              • One Two

                In your opinion how/why is the statement “factually correct”?

                What was your angle for the statement as compared to the bias of the article itself?

                One and the same thing perhaps

                • The statement remains factually correct. Russia has never directly attacked a western country, because Putin knows what the result would be. He prefers fighting through proxies.

                  The post is unbiased and based on the facts as we know them. I am pretty biased against fascists, as it happens, but I tried to keep that out of the post 😉 I think I was reasonably successful, but your mileage may vary.

  18. Richard Rawshark 19

    Whatever imagery you can fake, we can fake better.

    This is turning into a circus really, and turning into a cold war battleground, don’t let ideology get in the way of facts guys, what little facts their are anyone can rely on.

    Where does the guilt lie? Where/when did it all start who is responsible, cause and effect can go back a long way on this.

    The planet sometimes really does need a good old God to pop down and bitch slap a few souls once in a while. Pity he doesn’t exist.

  19. Puckish Rogue 20

    Well that’s an easy one to answer

    Is it because Tony Blair is a soft target? – Yes

  20. Ralf Crown 21

    Everyone seems to agree that it was a Russian BUK missile which downed the plane. It has already been determined that only two parties, Kiev and Russia had access to and was able to use the complex BUK system. It has also been determined that the particular type of missile that downed the plane was of an older type only Kiev had access to. So what we now are fed is that Russians secretly crossed the border and fired a missile only Kiev had access to, to down the plane. It reeks of American slick propaganda. The yanks pulling the strings in the back room again to deceive the world.

    • Stuart Munro 21.1

      No old stock missiles in the whole of Russia? That would be surprising.

      There are before and after photos of the vehicle and eye witness accounts.

      https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/01/17/new-images-of-the-mh17-buk-missile-launcher-in-ukraine-and-russia/

      The BUK launcher’s path has been tracked from the early days.

      Just because the US was aggressively pursuing their interests in the Ukraine it does not follow that they are the authors of everything that happened there.

      Modus operandi bears thinking about. Biden works for preference through financial mechanisms. Putin secured his presidency by the invasion of Chechnya.

    • Colonial Viper 21.2

      In theory the Russians could have pulled an old or obsolete system out of the manufacturers warehouse or some old military storage depot.

      Then taken it across the border, shot the Malaysian flight down and immediately driven it back across the border into Russia.

      All the while hoping that no one would see the big missile system loaded on to the back of a Volvo truck even after all the locals saw and heard the BUK missile go off and reports of flaming debris started coming out on the news.

      And why would Russia want to do any of this???

      • McFlock 21.2.1

        Because the russian forces in the Ukraine were still pretending to be ukrainian separatists, but Ukrainian air support and troop deployments via air were making life difficult.

        Problem: how to shoot down Ukrainian aircraft without obviously declaring war
        Solution: make it look like Ukrainians did it
        Complication: the folks you give the weapons to fuck up and mistake an airliner for a troop transport.

        • Lloyd 21.2.1.1

          Did the Russians actually give the weapons to anyone or isn’t it apparent that regular Russian force “volunteers” were operating their normal equipment in Ukrainian territory as part of the Russian invasion of the Ukraine?

          • Colonial Viper 21.2.1.1.1

            What Russian invasion of Ukraine? Please link to photos of Russian armour or formations “invading” Ukraine.

      • Kevin 21.2.2

        Thats what I don’t get about this whole episode CV.

        Why would the Russians be so obvious about it?

        The route in and out were hardly direct and they seem to have gone out of their way to be noticed.

        If you re NOTt trying to be noticed:

        1. Drive in and out at night only.
        2. Unload at the point of delivery not in the model of a town 6kms away.
        3. Use comms over secure encrypted channels. Cellphones? Really?
        4. Why a civilian airliner, not military?
        5. Motive? Whats the end game they were after?

        • Colonial Viper 21.2.2.1

          Why would the Russians be so obvious about it?

          The route in and out were hardly direct and they seem to have gone out of their way to be noticed.

          I appreciate the fact that someone here is asking actual questions.

          DId you notice that the Russians must have run out of tarps and camo netting because they couldn’t even be bothered to properly cover or conceal the BUK unit being transported on the back of the Volvo truck.

          • Stuart Munro 21.2.2.1.1

            The need for secrecy developed post facto.

            If the Buk had killed a Ukrainian fighter bomber the world at large would not have paid much attention.

            It was only after they hit MH17 that Russia worked out they’d opened a can of worms.

            They didn’t have their stories straight and ran a mixture of fabrications and denials that made it abundantly clear that they were lying.

            • Colonial Viper 21.2.2.1.1.1

              ?????

              You’re saying Russia did not feel any need for secrecy when rolling heavy missile systems across the border in to Ukraine?

              Please explain.

        • Lloyd 21.2.2.2

          Kevin, the answer to your question – Arrogance..
          They thought they could shoot down Ukrainian planes without anyone else getting worried about it.
          They Russians fucked up by shooting down a Malaysian aircraft.
          The Ukrainians fucked up by not recognising that the Russians could be so dumb, and continued to let dozens of civilian aircraft fly over the area of conflict. Lets face it dumb decisions are par for the course in a land that brought you Chernobyl.

          • Colonial Viper 21.2.2.2.1

            How about the land which brought you Three Mile Island?

          • Colonial Viper 21.2.2.2.2

            They Russians fucked up by shooting down a Malaysian aircraft.

            Walk me through how you think this error was made by the BUK crew (who would have been military specialists – but on whose side we do not know currently).

      • Stuart Munro 21.2.3

        Russia has suffered enormous economic problems over the last few decades – one of the results of this is that not all its military units have the very latest munitions upgrades.

        It clearly wasn’t obsolete because it destroyed MH17 handily.

        You probably don’t remember but Exocets were considered virtually obsolete at the time of the Falklands conflict – that war revised the assessment. Tigerfish torpedos went the other way.

  21. save nz 22

    Personally think what Tony Blair did was a war crime. Maybe he didn’t expect what happened to happen but in his happy go lucky way quite happy to Fuck over the people of Britain who protested widely against Britain entering the war. It was always going to end badly.

    The bigger problem is that the UN and security council have now let the Uk get away with it, now they can’t exactly lecture any one else. Chaos has now reigned just like the Israel situation. If the international community wants to be respected they need to have one law for all and tough consequences for those that breach them, including arresting the PM or anyone else who breaks the rules no matter who that is and what country they come from.

  22. One Two 23

    ‘Confirmation’….No it is nothing of the sort

    Not a single author or commentator on this site can do anything other than speculate as to what went on , no matter which ‘report’ or ‘position’ ones own prejudice or confirmation bias attaches itself to

    One can speculate if this authors articles are designed as click bait due to large number of responses most of the articles garner, or perhaps it is the personality/beliefs of the author on display…

    Who knows! So all I have is speculation

    • McFlock 23.1

      well, you also seem to have some pretty good drugs.

    • ropata 23.2

      That is a fucked up attitude but sadly all too common amongst uneducated idiots. Are you a Young-Earth Creationist as well?

      Young-Earth creationists actually embrace a philosophy that says nothing can be known about the world around us.

      Appearances and measurements lie. Trees lie. Carbon lies. Bones lie. The stars in the heavens lie. And nothing at all can be trusted from what we deceive ourselves into imagining we’re learning from observation, study, experiment and measurement.

      Their claim is even more audacious than that. It has to be. They want to say that they’re only disputing the honesty of “science,” but if that were the case, then we could easily test their claim by, say, switching on the light or looking at this page on the Internet. Science seems to work. And thus the epistemological anarchists of young-Earth creationism cannot simply be asserting the unreliability of science, they must also assert the unreliability of seeming. If a universe that seems ancient is not ancient, then both the universe and our seeming must be lying. Nothing we think we see, hear, touch or measure can be trusted. Nothing can be known.[…]

      • One Two 23.2.1

        ” Uneducated Idiots”

        No, Ropata.
        That is the reserve of types who attach themselves to subject matter as if they ‘know’ what is ‘going on’

        At best, you might be aware of what’s ‘going on’ in your immediate sphere of influence (in front of your face), but even then there will be variables outside of your ability to perceive and interpret ‘accurately’

        Translating your immediate evenvironment in ‘facts or truth’ will be a challenge which I doubt you have ever seriously considered

        Makes taking positions based on ‘stories’ told to you by 3rd parties a little foolhardy eh!

  23. Garibaldi 24

    I find the hatred of Russia on TS, by otherwise intelligent people, very sad. Your attitudes are similar to that horrible woman trying to be the President. The gullibility of you folk accepting western propaganda without questioning it is the very thing leading us towards nuclear conflict. How you can believe anything emanating from American interests, when you know their track record of lies ,obfuscation and deceit in all corners of the world over the last 70 years , is astounding.
    We used to admire and love the Americans when they helped so ably in WW2, but history shows that even then the Deep State had taken control and their record since has been appalling. They (USA) are not a benign Empire ‘ doing good ‘ all around the world – they are quite the opposite.
    Russia is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination , but they are rank amateurs compared to the USA .

    • Colonial Viper 24.1

      People also forget that Russia was undergoing a catastrophic neoliberal economic and political implosion not even 20 years ago.

      Millions of Russians died early deaths as cold, starvation, violence and substance abuse wracked the nation.

      They had to take strong medicine to right the ship of state and put their society back on a sustainable footing. And they haven’t forgotten the west’s role in that period of their history, and the broken promises of NATO/USA.

      • Stunned mullet 24.1.1

        Ha ha..so it was ‘mericas/the west/neoliberalism (insert another buzzword) fault that the USSR was a shambles overseen by an increasingly senile and out of touch ruling elite that eventually failed….mmmm OK.

        I s’pose China was better off under Mao as well.

        • D'Esterre 24.1.1.1

          Stunned Mullet: ” Ha ha..so it was ‘mericas/the west/neoliberalism (insert another buzzword) fault that the USSR was a shambles overseen by an increasingly senile and out of touch ruling elite that eventually failed”
          No. It was Russia in the 90s that was almost wrecked by neoliberalism. Putin has been in large measure responsible for rescuing the country and the economy.

      • DISTURBED 24.1.2

        10% CV

        Most are buying good old “red in the bed” cold war US propaganda again sadly.

      • Stuart Munro 24.1.3

        You forget that Russia taught the DPRK its current level of respect for truth.

        You must analyse Russian utterances – taking them at face value is beyond naive.

        Have you worked with Russians? I have. They have the Persian tendency.

      • Psycho Milt 24.1.4

        Strong measures were necessary to restore order to society, following the decadent chaos wrought by the Weimar republic! Sorry, wrong country. I guess it would be too much to ask that Russians might figure out that the people to blame for the appalling state of Russian society over the last century have all been Russian (in the broadest sense, ie including residents of Russian imperial possessions, like Mr Djukashvili). It’s much easier to blame foreigners for it.

    • Chooky 24.2

      +100 Garibaldi

    • Liberal Realist 24.3

      +1

    • How you can believe anything emanating from American interests, when you know their track record of lies ,obfuscation and deceit in all corners of the world over the last 70 years , is astounding.

      One could ask the same question about anything emanating from Russian interests, when you know their track record of lies, obfuscation and deceit in all corners of the world over the last 100 years. Becoming a sponge for propaganda is indeed a bad idea, which is exactly my problem with the Putin sycophants on these comments threads.

    • Red 24.5

      Cuckoo alert

  24. muttonbird 25

    Animated video. You know animation is pretend, don’t you?

    • te reo putake 25.1

      The bits at around the 3 minute mark aren’t.

      • One Two 25.1.1

        As you were not involved in the ‘investigation’ or creation of the ‘animated story’, it is not possible for you to know either way..

        So why pretend that you do?

  25. adam 26

    Just an observation…About the Irony comment.

  26. Chooky 27

    Putin is Blair’s mate…i don’t think so!

    ( bullshit skew)

  27. Chooky 28

    ‘Int’l MH17 crash investigation ‘politically deficient, defective by process’ ‘

    https://www.rt.com/op-edge/360942-mh17-investigation-jit-russia/

    “The Dutch-led investigation into the MH17 crash was politically motivated; its goal was to determine why Russia was responsible instead of finding out who actually downed the plane, says Joaquin Flores, an Editor-in-Chief at Fort Russ news…

    • Stuart Munro 28.1

      RT is not a credible source on this issue.

      • Colonial Viper 28.1.1

        Bullshit. RT is a necessary, though insufficient, source on this topic.

        • Stuart Munro 28.1.1.1

          RT produces no evidence but lots of smear.

          Still waiting for the Nemtsov shooter.

          As with any hostile witness RT ‘evidence’ must be treated critically.

          As the principal belligerent engaged in invading the Ukraine (albeit through a catspaw) Russia is not by any stretch of the imagination a neutral party in this matter.

          Russia has proliferated a shitstorm of wild theories – but the clincher is the barefaced lie – the manufacture of a Ukranian jet shootdown of MH17 video. This was an official Russian release. They lied. Officially.

          But that’s ok – CV doesn’t mind Russian lies.

          It can’t be a BUK – but it was.

          It was a Ukranian jet – but it wasn’t.

          The neo-liberals did it – nope – they’re bankers, wouldn’t know a BUK if it bit them.

          The Russians have no evidence trail – the very idea of investigative reporting is foreign to them. They invent results from whole cloth. But they cannot explain their vehicle away. They’d’ve got a better result by coming clean.

          • Colonial Viper 28.1.1.1.1

            Interesting how you note Russia as a hostile party invading Ukraine, but you omit US actions instigating a colour revolution coup in Kiev and then installing and supporting an unconstitutional, illegal government in its place.

            Which by the way, forced Russia to defend its national security interests.

            Shame you forgot to mention these critical factors yet insist on insulting me.

          • Colonial Viper 28.1.1.1.2

            “still waiting for the Nemtsov shooter”

            I’m still waiting for who shot JFK.

  28. instauration 29

    https://www.rt.com/news/172832-snezhnoe-airstrike-residential-quarters/
    (Published 15 Jul, 2014)

    Why the hell would Ukraine allow commercial flights in this airspace less than 48hrs after this aggression upon civilians ?

    And yet Ukraine was a party to the investigations ? – when they were so evidently culpable !

    • Stuart Munro 29.1

      So – you deny the enormous volume of physical and photographic evidence to endorse Russian smears of the Ukraine – their enemy.

      So show us the story of the Ukranian BUK. The Ukraine is riddled with Russian intelligence resources – they speak the language and have many sympathisers. The borders are permeable to them – they could track down the much smaller number of Ukranian BUKs overnight. They reason they haven’t is that they’ve learned to their cost that invented stories lose them more support by being debunked.

      So they stick to unsubstantiated sneering of the same kind they used to bury the assassination of Nemtsov.

      Russia downed MH17 as surely as it did KA 007. It’s a trope.

      • Colonial Viper 29.1.1

        Russia downed MH17 as surely as it did KA 007. It’s a trope.

        Faith mate, you have faith. Gotta admire your certainty.

        • Stuart Munro 29.1.1.1

          Evidence CV – deny it all you like – evidence that your infatuation with RT is no substitute for.

          Ukranian BUK? OK – there were never more than half a dozen. Find it, prove it, the data is out there. Only if that were true of course.

          • Colonial Viper 29.1.1.1.1

            Sorry mate, you’ve stopped asking questions, including noticing that this investigation committee already decided what their conclusions were 18 months ago, and have just repeated the same 18 months later.

            • Stuart Munro 29.1.1.1.1.1

              No mate – it’s you who stopped asking questions. Nothing that looks at Putin is even considered.

              So come on – It’s a Ukranian BUK? Lets see the photos and hear the story. Putin has plenty of agents in the country, and plenty of sympathisers – it’s not a secret that could be kept.

              But it clashes with your irrational belief that Putin is the good guy.

              And as they’ve discovered, fabrications can be debunked.

              Which is also why the Nemtsov story has never emerged – a cloud of suspicion is more effective for Putin’s ends than the truth.

              So what you really mean is “It could’ve been a Ukranian BUK” which is true. There is however no evidence to support that conjecture.

              • Colonial Viper

                Having thought about things a bit more, it is now clear to me that a civilian airliner (which turned out to be MH17) was deliberately and knowingly targeted and brought down, possibly by a BUK anti aircraft missile system manned by a highly trained military or paramilitary crew.

                Which is also why the Nemtsov story has never emerged – a cloud of suspicion is more effective for Putin’s ends than the truth.

                That’s illogical as that means people like you can keep using Nemtsov – a has-been anti-Muslim politician who could barely get 1% of the vote – to point the finger at Putin.

      • Instauration 29.1.2

        You miss the point Munro
        Read the link – Donetsk was under attack from this same airspace. It was a war zone.
        And yet Ukraine allowed commercial flights in this zone – just culpable ! Any alleged aerial counter measures are justified to self defence .

  29. Liberal Realist 30

    The credibility of the JIT’s report can be seriously questioned by the fact that the Ukrainian SBU had veto over release of information.

    JITs investigation relied upon incepted phone calls supplied to it by the SBU…

    Since the coup in Feb 2014 every official institution in the Ukraine belongs to an illegal government that is fighting a war against its own people who just happen to speak another major language and live in the east. This government has no legitimacy, anyone with their eyes open can see it’s a puppet.

    The SBU, the Ukrainian Intelligence Services ability to withhold information means the JIT investigation came to a conclusion on shaky and or incomplete intel therefore not credible.

    Analysis by Robert Parry:
    https://consortiumnews.com/2016/09/28/troubling-gaps-in-the-new-mh-17-report/

    • D'Esterre 30.1

      Liberal Realist: ” The SBU, the Ukrainian Intelligence Services ability to withhold information means the JIT investigation came to a conclusion on shaky and or incomplete intel therefore not credible.”
      Exactly. This piece comes to a similar conclusion:
      http://theduran.com/joint-investigation-team-mh17-case-still-open/
      I’m pleased to see that you posted the Parry analysis. I was planning to, if nobody else had.
      It’s worth noting that the JIT report isn’t the same as that from the Dutch Safety Board. Having read the latter, I was quite confused by this latest effort. Looks like propaganda on the part of the Ukrainians.

  30. mikesh 31

    The odd thing about the video in the update is that the missile launcher finished up at a location where it was well placed to shoot down the airliner. Given that the latter was not on its regular route, this seems a very strange coincidence. Also, it seems to indicate that this commercial airliner was in fact the intended target ie that it was not just a “mistake” as many of us thought.

  31. tom 32

    “How you can believe anything emanating from American interests, when you know their track record of lies ,obfuscation and deceit in all corners of the world over the last 70 years , is astounding.’

    response

    ‘One could ask the same question about anything emanating from Russian interests, when you know their track record of lies, obfuscation and deceit in all corners of the world over the last 100 years. Becoming a sponge for propaganda is indeed a bad idea, which is exactly my problem with the Putin sycophants on these comments threads.”

    copied from 24.4 above.

    Having read all the comments, it seems this hits the point i wanted to make, that both sides are compulsive liers, and we all know the first casulaty of war is truth, and this is a war, even if not stated as such or escalated yet to all out war.
    You guys are arguing over indeterminable facts, i must say i cannot even bother to look into an investigation which Ukraine was part of and Russia not (have we not learnt anything from all the bullshit investigations that get done here in NZ, think of Juduith Collins investigation, GCSB report, Sherwin report, dirty poliitcs, etc etc ongoing ad infinitum) why even talk to them except to acknowledge they are set up for a controlled outcome.
    Russia ain’t the good guys, but neither are the US – who certainly assisted with a Coup in Ukraine, and that is provocative to russia, so they have some right to fight against that IMO. NATO USA have surrounded Russia and is most definately a geo political war going on to keep the russian bear down, if you corner a wild beast they will more than likely fight.
    There are no easy answers and no easy truths, but we can see the wider geo politics quite clearly and that should be a starting point to understand the conflict

    Obviously innocent people died tragically and deserve the truth, at least, but that ain’t gonna happen in this world currently, they need justice too but that won’t happen either, but the broader point here is that in the world currently there are so many war crimes going on and to be up in arms over this seems to me to buy into US propaganda to demonise Russia, take John Kerry (and our JK too) at the UN recently if you look at kerry’s speech, what he said was just as easily applied to the USA, it was total Propaganda bullshit and grandstanding of the highest order. Where are these same UN disgust and media focus on US supported war crimes in Yemen as one little example, you could go on all day with examples, Israel anyone?

    I believe as we are part of Five eyes, we need to look in our own backyard and tidy that up before you can (without being a total hypocrite) bang on about Russian war crimes. We need to be vocal about our crimes before condemning others, that seems a basic moral point to live by, and could lead to a solution, as Chomsky often says ‘ if we want to stop terror, stop participating in it’

    • McFlock 32.1

      Yes, as individuals we might never have full 100% proof that A did B.
      That doesn’t stop us looking at what seems to be the most likely scenario, however – and the side that does the most obvious dissembling frequently has the most to evade, in my experience.

      But the main issue I have with your comment is the blatant hypocrisy – we can never know who shot down MH17, but the US “certainly assisted with a Coup in Ukraine”? Besides the semantic biases each way between “coup” and “revolution”, your suddent geopolitical certainty seems to be a bit inconsistent with your previous position.

      • Colonial Viper 32.1.1

        Victoria Nuland of “Fuck the EU fame” pretty much confirmed that the US knew who it wanted in power in the Ukraine, constitutional elections be damned.

        And yes, it was most likely Russian secret services who bugged that conversation.

        That and admissions that the US has been pouring billions into Ukraine over years in order to destabilise the elected government of that country.

        Plus the US has form with either encouraging, funding or conducting regime change or destabilisations in countries which don’t tow it’s line. Libya and Syria obviously. But also more relevantly Georgia and Chechnya.

        In the name of freedom and democracy of course, a line that lefty liberals suck up like mothers milk.

        • McFlock 32.1.1.1

          So “form” and bugged but apparently genuine phone calls provide justifications for claims of certainty about US actions, but not Russian?

          Thanks for demonstrating my point.

          • Colonial Viper 32.1.1.1.1

            There’s a list of 20 or 30 countries in the last 50 years that the USA has gone in and regime changed, assassinated democratically elected leaders, crushed peoples movements, destroyed local unions, imploded functioning socialist countries, etc.

            I don’t know why you don’t know this or believe that the US has somehow changed its stripes in the last decade under “Drone King” Obama.

            • McFlock 32.1.1.1.1.1

              lol

              Stop deflecting.
              If The US track record “certainly” confirms current or recent allegations, why doesn’t the Russian track record relating to civilian casualties and lies do likewise?

      • tom 32.1.2

        my point was, the truth of the one small event is quite hard to get to the bottom of, especially when is a politicised event in the midst of a war, the broader geo politics is easier to see, that is my point, and i believe a fair point
        What i indicated, again, is that a one event in the midst of a war is always going to be propagandised and therefore bastardised into a semblance of truth, rather than broader geo political trends that one can paint a good picture of to see past the BS, thru good research, so no ‘blatant hypocricy’ there, maybe tone down your rhetoric to be less of a ….

        Going on about a topic that you cannot be sure has not been influenced by Propaganda to me is a waste of time unless you can take the vast time needed to get to the bottom of it, as someone noted before, i would be more likely to believe an independent investigative Journo who has had the time to look into and present that info in a clearly laid out way, and is someone who i know i can trust from prior work, such as a glenn greenwald etc, or a Chomsky, rather than RT or Fox or BS investigations, or grandstanding politicians. I am not fixed either way on this issue, just believe both sides are not to be trusted in and of themselves.

        do you really believe it was an independant, non politicised inquiry? if so why?

        Again i refer you to Kerry’s speech at UN, that shows how politicised it has been, in that US do exactly what he is condemning Russia for, so any disgust Kerry had is the ‘blatant hypocricy’ you referred to me as.

        Also as an aside, i feel the way the proponents of the US version of events are very ridiculing of the ones who disagree, talking down and scarily sure of something i believe you cannot be sure of

        also my main point was this:

        ‘I believe as we are part of Five eyes, we need to look in our own backyard and tidy that up before you can (without being a total hypocrite) bang on about Russian war crimes. We need to be vocal about our crimes before condemning others, that seems a basic moral point to live by, and could lead to a solution, as Chomsky often says ‘ if we want to stop terror, stop participating in it’’

        • McFlock 32.1.2.1

          Do I believe that maybe a couple of the parties involved in the investigation might have had zero motive to skew the results? Of course not. It’s a freaking war zone.

          Do I believe that the findings seem to be reasonable? Yep. Firstly, some parties like the Dutch or Malaysians have no obvious direct motive to skew the investigation, so that limits the damage. Secondly, the Russians did their usual of conflicting stories and fabrications, so that points at them or their clients anyway. Thirdly, if the investigation was in fact skewed, it wasn’t over-egged – nobody is declaring malice by the Russians or their clients, just mistake and coverup. On the flipside the Ukrainians would have had a higher probability of malice if they’d shot it down, given the location of the crash and suchlike. There’s no real bonus in it for them.

          Lastly, there’s no real benefit in skewing dramatically the investigation – so what if they shot down an airliner, even on Putin’s order (not saying that at all, highly unlikely, just the worst case scenario)? They bomb hospitals and civilians routinely. Put it in the queue – why would the Ukrainians risk being caught creating a charade for so little bonus?

          As for NZ war crimes, well – there’s not a huge amount of certainty around those, either. What were the allegations again?

        • Stuart Munro 32.1.2.2

          It is enormously useful, for a guilty party, to take the conclusions of objective investigations and reduce the conclusion to “we can never know”.

          • Colonial Viper 32.1.2.2.1

            Of course we can know; both the USA/NATO and Ukraine have all the primary radar and sensor scans required to prove what happened on the day.

            Let’s see them.

            • McFlock 32.1.2.2.1.1

              In that case, mr clancy, so do the russians. Let’s see them.

              • Instauration

                Show me that the JIT has not received an offer of such evidence from Russia.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Almaz Antey announces raw radar data handed over to inquiry – Sept 2016

                  In its official statement, the company said the data in question is “the so-called initial radar images of the airspace in raw form.” That includes the registration of movements in the airspace over Eastern Ukraine on the day when the Malaysian Boeing went down in the area.

                  On Thursday, the official representative of the Russian Investigative Committee, Vladimir Markin, announced that Russia will pass this fresh batch of information on the MH17 crash to the Dutch-led international investigators.

                  https://www.rt.com/news/360319-almaz-russia-mh17-crash/

                  Inquiry ignores Russian provided radar and other data – Feb 2016

                  Desperate for answers that would shed the light on who fired the BUK missile that allegedly hit the passenger plane on July 17, 2014, and dissatisfied with the slow-moving Dutch probe, the relatives have turned to the heads of several states, including Russia’s. On January 22, they sent a letter to Putin, asking about the primary data from radars and satellites, which they think is crucial.

                  “We did not impose any conditions or restrictions regarding further use and disclosure of radar data, records of phone conversations and other data we submitted to the Dutch Safety Board (DSB) at its request. Moreover, Russia has stored all that data to this day, and is willing to provide it once again to the relevant authorities,” said Storchevoy.

                  While the Russian authorities were not involved in controlling the fatal flight, they still soon became de-facto participants of the investigation due to the unique information obtained from radars in Rostov-on-Don, a Russian city not far from the Ukrainian border.

                  “I would like to stress that Russia disclosed all of its available satellite data in the days immediately following the crash,” said Storchevoy.

                  https://www.rt.com/news/331833-mh17-dutch-probe-ignore/

                  • McFlock

                    Fair enough – atwo years after the fact, but whatevs.

                    so what evidence do you have that the US is withholding data?

                    oh wait, the RT claim that ukraine didn’t provide data might be bullshit:

                    The JIT has obtained sufficient radar data, both from Russia and Ukraine, which – when viewed in conjunction – provide a full picture of the airspace over eastern Ukraine. This shows that at the time of the crash, no other airplanes were in the vicinity that could have shot down flight MH17.”

                    • That’s odd – shouldn’t the Russian radar data show that Ukrainian fighter they had a satellite photo of? I wonder what could possibly explain that discrepancy?

      • Instauration 32.1.3

        Януко́вич was 4/5ths through his electoral term when faced with a decision to persist with the status-quo of Russian paternalism – and roll-over $16B of Russian funding with substantive LNG concessions – or adopt a quasi shift to the West – with no such funding or guarantees. Yanukovych responded appropriately – the plebiscite was imminent.
        The “Nuland – let them have cake” coup intervened.

        • McFlock 32.1.3.1

          aaaaand the bit that confirms the US “certainly assisted” is?

          • Instauration 32.1.3.1.1

            Scots’Flockperson;
            baaaand
            US “certainly assisted”
            Please explain the context ?

          • Instauration 32.1.3.1.2

            Ok – just did a find on this thread with “assisted”
            You still trying to defend the USA (America is not a country ) in this coup allegation ?
            It was a coup ! Who did the coup is “later”

            • McFlock 32.1.3.1.2.1

              fucksake, read the thread.

              I’m not “defending” the US. I’m pointing out the double standard that several commenters here seem to have, where Russian complicity in the shootdown needs to be proved while (often in the very same comment) individuals claim to be certain about US covert activities.

              • Instauration

                FlockSake
                Well just read my comments.
                Neither position is asserted.
                I claim that any alleged “crime” by Donetsk protectors can be defended by an assertion of self defence.
                I claim that the alleged government of Ukraine in July 2014 was not legitimate as it was a perversion of the electoral will.
                I don’t give a shit about who you think this perversion should be attributed to.

                • McFlock

                  Those claims are nice, thanks for finally getting to the point.

                  Why are you telling them to me, when I was talking about double standards in the comment 32 subthread? They just seem a bit random if that was your entire point.

                  • tom

                    These are just a few links I could find from one of my trusted sources I haven’t looked up others as I do not have time to be someone’s personal researcher if u have an interest look up others it is not hard.
                    Links

                    http://m.democracynow.org/stories/14211

                    http://m.democracynow.org/stories/14220

                    http://m.democracynow.org/stories/14263

                    http://m.democracynow.org/stories/14172

                    http://m.democracynow.org/stories/14231

                    ALao a few headline articles back from 2004 thru till now to give a little of the broader context. Are many more available as I said above but I really don’t have the time I hope that is appreciated

                    http://m.democracynow.org/headline/3780

                    http://m.democracynow.org/headline/5493

                    http://m.democracynow.org/headline/14804

                    http://m.democracynow.org/headline/23523

                    http://m.democracynow.org/headline/37109

                    http://m.democracynow.org/headline/37586

                    http://m.democracynow.org/headline/37547

                    As I say u need to research and understand the geo politics looking for smoking guns when it comes to deep state is not easy unless a snowden comes along. Facts can b muddied thru propaganda which has been my point all along.

                    Also u were very disingenuous above about nz war crimes when I clearly said ‘as we are part of five eyes….’ my point quite obviously is that we need to stop our allies criminal behaviour before getting up in arms about our enemies. That is an obvious necessity to not be a hypocrite and to have any moral high ground. That you ignore that obvious point is as I say, disengeneous, and I ain’t playing those types of games if you want to play it that way I won’t respond in future.

                    • McFlock

                      So we should stop our allies’ criminal behaviour, fair enough. Shouldn’t we also expect Russia do the same with Assad’s criminal behaviour?

                      America’s bad. So is Russia, if we judge each with the same level of evidence – and there’s much stronger evidence in the case of Russia.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      America’s bad. So is Russia, if we judge each with the same level of evidence – and there’s much stronger evidence in the case of Russia.

                      Bullshit.

                      The US has killed at least 500,000 Iraqi children.

                      And that was pre-GW Bush Iraq war – I figure add another 500,000 dead Iraqi children on top of that.

                      Now, where has Russia done anything similar.

                    • McFlock

                      Chechnya, for one.
                      And they seem keen on playng catch-up in Syria, and well-thrashing the US bombed hospital count.
                      Don’t forget 10,000 or so dead in the Ukraine, and 1.5million refugees.

                      Thing is, as your hero trump likes to complain, if the US bombs or invades someone, they tend to announce it. The Russians issue five conflicting stories of what’s going on, and claim that thousands of armed and trained soldiers all happened to shop at the same army surplus store.

                      the flipside of that is that it’s easier to spot the Russians, because they double-down on the bullshit the closer they are to actually having done something dodgy. Whereas if they actually skewed the situation in the Ukraine, it was with a softer touch than is in the Russian manual.

                      A bit like how your slogans become more shrill and diverse when you have less ground to stand on. Dead give-away.

                      And, of course, your tally is based entirely on pretending that the KGB guy running the kremlin is a completely separate and distinct political animal from the folks who ran the Soviet Union, rather than a different brand of the same generic cola drink.

                    • Your linked article http://m.democracynow.org/stories/14220 provides a good breakdown of what was happening at the time and why. Funnily enough, the US government is peripheral to their analysis, most likely because it was peripheral to the events. Your certainty has a lot less basis for it than the JIT investigators’ findings in their report.

                    • tom

                      response to Psycho Milt, was no reply button under your comment.
                      ‘Your linked article http://m.democracynow.org/stories/14220 provides a good breakdown of what was happening at the time and why. Funnily enough, the US government is peripheral to their analysis, most likely because it was peripheral to the events. Your certainty has a lot less basis for it than the JIT investigators’ findings in their report.’

                      Thanks you have helped prove my point, i advised you need context, and for this you need to research widely, not just on ukraine either……
                      and you referred to ONE of my links without any reference to the others at all, or the fact i advised that was a sampler and much more on that one website (under Ukraine, not to mention if searched under NATO, or multiple other countries or searches for references to similar US baehaviour) not to mention other sources like Chomsky, Pilger, Wikileaks, Snowden etc etc, etc……could keep going on and on, but seems not much point. It appears you read one link and found what you wanted and went no further.

                      That one link you referred to i placed there to give context, of the intenal politics, which is why Democracy Now put in on as well, as Amy Goodman says during it, for our US audience who do not understand the politics in Ukraine. One would do the same if the issue was about NZ, as US would not understand labour/national MMP system etc they would need the CONTEXT, but then after that you would also have a piece or pieces on the external factors, such as US complicity/influence, such as the other links i have provided.
                      so your comment ‘ the US government is peripheral to their analysis, most likely because it was peripheral to the events’ looks a little silly now once context is applied, as that had no discussion of NATO or any of the other stuff for a good reason, and not because it is not relevant to the overall situation, but as stated above was put there for CONTEXT.

                      Another link is a ex Bush CIA advisor who gives the official US (spin, i would say) line on this, and he debates with the external poliitcs expert, i placed that link here also to provide further CONTEXT, and also to provide the opposite opinion, which i beleive is important, so not to only provide links that back up my assertion, as that is the right thing to do, also that is why Democracy Now put it on, and why i like them as a resource to understand whats happening in the world, as they provide broader context without it being one sided spin like MSM. That this seems lost on you is a worry to me, and was the original reason for my post, so thanks again for highlighting exactly what i was originally saying.

                      Not to mention if one had the broader context they would understand that the US being involved in another countries politics is not new it is not the exception it is the rule, please read up on the broader context of all this to understand this important and easily defined FACT. Chomsky would be my go to on that score. Wikileaks also shows this quite clearly.

                      Also in regards the leaked tape, that person has stated it was them on that tape (that is a headline article that can be found also on the democracy now website), so is not some Russian made up smear, and especially with the deep state, evidence is hard to get, so usually context and circumstantial evidence is all you get, this lady said she said it but it didn’t mean what we think, which is handy, and not uncommon from the PR playbook (we all know that, just think about NZ politics like dirty politics, Judith Collins as one of many examples of when caught change the story and make up new story as to what the evidence is showing to defer, deflect and live to fight another day).
                      Imagine with me here, the mafia get caught saying on tape ‘ i want him to swim with the fishes’, when that is made public they come out and say it is just unfortunate he dies the next day as we were only wanting to take him swimming with dolphins, now if you had no context to understand what ‘swimming with fishes’ means you may take them at their word, and if had no context that is no dolphins in the vicinity, in fact not even water, again you may take their word, but for anyone esle with the CONTEXT it is as obvious as sin.
                      Crude example but does highlight my point.

                    • I pointed out that single one because it has a good analysis of what happened, in which the US is hardly mentioned because the US was peripheral to what happened.

                      As McFlock points out, you guys can dismiss as inconclusive an entire report on the shooting down of MH17 that’s full of evidence like intercepted phone calls, but take it as certain that the US was behind a “coup” in Ukraine on the basis of an intercepted phone call, previous “form” and endless blather from people like Pilger and Chomsky that it must have been a US coup. The double standard is laughable.

                    • tom

                      ‘I pointed out that single one because it has a good analysis of what happened, in which the US is hardly mentioned because the US was peripheral to what happened.

                      As McFlock points out, you guys can dismiss as inconclusive an entire report on the shooting down of MH17 that’s full of evidence like intercepted phone calls, but take it as certain that the US was behind a “coup” in Ukraine on the basis of an intercepted phone call, previous “form” and endless blather from people like Pilger and Chomsky that it must have been a US coup. The double standard is laughable.’

                      Mate what can i say, you ignore what you want and that is no way to research a topic, it is a grand and epic fail, and i cannot waste anymore time on that, am happy to debate, but not if you will not look at anything does not fit your preconceived notion.

                      ‘ endless blather from people like Pilger and Chomsky’

                      just a foolish comment. what more can be said if you can simply disregard a whole swathe of research over 60 yrs as easily as that, by one of the most referenced people in the world, he comes in close behind Jesus and Plato on the most referenced people in the world, and not because he endlessly blathers. Wake up and smell the roses buddy, enjoy ignorance, supposedly it is blissful

              • D'Esterre

                McFlock: ” where Russian complicity in the shootdown needs to be proved while (often in the very same comment) individuals claim to be certain about US covert activities.”
                Good lord! If you’re referring to the Ukraine coup, there was nothing at all covert about the US involvement in it. Perhaps you didn’t follow the news at the time? The US was quite open and unashamed about its sponsoring of the coup: senators in the Maidan and all. The US political class genuinely doesn’t see anything wrong with this: they don’t make a secret of their desire to sponsor regime change in various polities. Iraq, Syria, Libya, Ukraine…. the US has been quite open about all this.
                And while I’m in the business of myth-busting, Russia did not invade the Ukraine following the ouster of Yanukovich. Despite breathless predictions to the contrary by the neo-fascist government, it has not invaded the Donbass either.
                And: the Crimea seceded following the coup: its third attempt since independence to decamp from the Ukraine. This time, citizens and government made sure it happened. Russia did not invade the Crimea, either. It had troops legally stationed there under the terms of the Black Sea Fleet Treaty. All this information is on public record.

                • McFlock

                  There’s a world of difference between saying who you’d like to see win and actually assisting a “coup”. Even if the distinction between “coup” and “revolution” is an irregular noun, like “terrorist” and “freedom fighter”.

  32. Sable 33

    The investigation is hardly conclusive. I would say this is not in my view terribly convincing…….

    • Colonial Viper 33.1

      This “investigation” already publicly decided 18 months ago that MH17 was brought down by a 1980s BUK missile system which had been driven in from Russia the same day, and driven straight back to Russia the day after.

  33. D'Esterre 34

    A comment from a member of this household: “If the truth about TWA800 could be buried, then MH17 is potatoes.”
    Hard to argue with that, really.

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    BMG research have unleashed their final poll of the 2019 campaign:Westminster voting intention: CON: 41% (-)LAB: 32% (-)LDEM: 14% (-)GRN: 4% (-)BREX: 3% (-1)via @BMGResearch , 06 - 11 Dec Chgs. w/ 06 Dec That's a bit of a "Dunno why we bothered" sort of poll. "Phillip, I'm afraid I've been a ...
    4 days ago
  • Grant Robertson Spends Up Large – On The Establishment!
    Grant Keeps On Trucking: Out of the $12 billion Robertson has announced for infrastructure investment, $8 billion will be allocated to specific projects, with the balance of $4 billion held in reserve. What does it say about this Government's "transformational" ambitions that 85 percent of that $8 billion is to ...
    4 days ago
  • Boris Johnson … Hides … In a Fridge
    I am not making this up.First few lines of the Dail Mail write up:Boris Johnson's exasperated media minder swore on live TV today as the PM refused to speak to Good Morning Britain before trotting into a fridge as he started an early milkround in Yorkshire. Piers Morgan was visibly ...
    4 days ago
  • Shy Labour Voters?
    In previous elections pollsters have bemoaned the 'shy Tory' - the respondent who is so fearful of being judged as a cruel and heartless bastard by an anonymous pollster, or their spouses, workmates and friends, that they lie about their intention of voting Conservative, skewing the poll figures in Labour's ...
    4 days ago
  • Seven reasons to be wary of waste-to-energy proposals
    Climate Explained is a collaboration between The Conversation, Stuff and the New Zealand Science Media Centre to answer your questions about climate change. If you have a question you’d like an expert to answer, please send it to climate.change@stuff.co.nz I was in Switzerland recently and discovered that they haven’t ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    4 days ago
  • Reviewing the whitewash
    Back in 2015, then Ombudsman Beverley Wakem conducted a review of the OIA, Not a game of hide and seek. The "review" was a whitewash, which found no need for legislative change, and instead criticised the media and requesters - which destroyed Wakem's reputation, and undermined that of the Office ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • You Gov MRP Poll Out
    So, You Gov's MRP poll - the weird one that tries to reflect what will happen at a constituency level and which pretty much nailed the hung parliament in 2017 - is not looking too good for Labour:
    UK #GE2019 MRP seat projection:CON: 339 (-20)LAB: 231 (+20)SNP: 41 (-2)LDEM: 15 ...
    4 days ago
  • Climate Change: Accountability?
    We've known about climate change for over forty years now,and it has been a major political issue for twenty. And yet fossil fuel companies have kept polluting with impunity, while government have looked the other way and twiddled their thumbs and refused to do anything because "the economy", or just ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Delusional And Irrational: The Rise Of Paranoid Politics In New Zealand.
    Sheer Loopiness: Many of those expressing bemusement at the antics of these #turnardern effacers, were convinced that they were yet another expression of the National Party’s increasingly spiteful anti-government propaganda campaign. They marvelled at the oddness of the perpetrators’ mindset and questioned the common-sense of allowing the rest of New Zealand ...
    5 days ago
  • Things to know about Whakaari/White Island
    Brad Scott, GNS Science VolcanologistThis post was originally published by GeoNet. Following the 9 December devastating eruption at Whakaari/White Island we have put together some information about the island. New Zealand’s most active volcano Whakaari/White Island is currently New Zealand’s most active volcano, it has been since an eruptive episode ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    5 days ago
  • Status quo supports status quo
    The Justice Committee has reported back on its Inquiry into the 2017 General Election and 2016 Local Elections, with a host of recommendations about how to improve our electoral systems. Some of their recommendations are already incorporate din the Electoral Amendment Bill currently before Parliament, but there's also a recommendation ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • The Greens abandon NeoLiberalism
    Back in 2017, in order to make themselves "electable" in the eyes of rich people who oppose everything they stand for, the Greens signed up for NeoLiberalism, adopting a restrictive set of "Budget Responsibility Rules" which basicly prevented them from using government to make things better. Now, they're finally abandoning ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Lying about a failed war
    Since invading in 2001, the US has consistently claimed that their war in Afghanistan has been going well, even when it continued year after year after year. Of course, they were lying, and thanks to the Washington Post and the US Freedom of Information Act, we get to see just ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Artificial Intelligence and You
    How should we think about artificial intelligence and the implications that it has for our work and leisure? There are many articles on artificial intelligence and its potential impacts on jobs, and the ethics of applications. These are important topics, but I want to focus on some less discussed aspects, ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert Hickson
    5 days ago
  • Statistical manipulation to get publishable results
    I love data. It’s amazing the sort of “discoveries” I can make given a data set and computer statistical package. It’s just so easy to search for relationships and test their statistical significance. Maybe relationships which ...
    6 days ago
  • More lies on the Twitter (Dan Hodges edition)
    The other big story concerning Leeds Hospital is Boris Johnson's bizzare behaviour at Leeds Hospital, where he was confronted by a journalist and challenged about a four year old boy with suspected pneumonia who was left sleeping on the floor, rather than getting  abed like a sick kid would in ...
    6 days ago
  • LabourActivistPunchedMattHancock’sSPADGate
    So, for a brief period of history, it was alleged that a protester had punched Matt Hancock's SPAD (not a euphemism; special adviser) when Hancock visited Leeds Hospital.This was reported by the likes of Robert Peston and Laura Keunssberg, as well as the less credible Guido Fawkes.  It also quickly ...
    6 days ago
  • France’s anti-Zionism is anti-liberté
    by Daphna Whitmore Last week France passed a law that equates anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. It is based on a definition of anti-Semitism that includes criticism of Israel such as: “Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    6 days ago
  • Another bus lockout
    Over the past year we've seen major bus problems in Hamilton and Wellington, as drivers have sought better wages and an end to the bullshit of split shifts, which basicly see them "married to the job". And now its Auckland's turn. When NZBus's drivers planned low-level strike action of not ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • Climate Change: Showing us how its done
    The government has been congratulating itself over the passage of the Zero Carbon Act, which sets out long-term emissions targets. But those targets are insufficient. Meanwhile, Denmark is showing us how its done:Denmark’s parliament adopted a new climate law on Friday, committing to reach 70% below its 1990 emissions in ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • New Fisk
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • Public sector dysfunction should not be allowed to undermine freedom of information
    Another day, another piece of legislation with a secrecy clause. This time its the innocuous-seeming Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission Bill, which (after establishing a new body and making it subject to the OIA in three different ways) includes the rapidly-becoming-standard clauses enabling it to request information from other public ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • “This is England, this knife of Sheffield steel…”
    The state of the United Kingdom is fractured, torn up, shredded. The Empire is gone, it died a long time ago. And yet, the country is still tracking with a lead in favour of the ones who play to the ingrained, class-bound division for political gain. It is a disgrace ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    1 week ago
  • CORSIA, coming soon to an airport near you
    On 27 September, Greta Thunberg addressed a crowd of 500,000 at the School Strike for Climate in Montreal, saying: “You are a nation that is allegedly a climate leader. And Sweden is also a nation that is allegedly a climate leader. And in both cases, it means absolutely nothing. Because ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert McLachlan
    1 week ago
  • Cloaking hate speech and fake news in the right to free expression.
    It should be obvious by now but let’s be clear: The same folk who regularly traffic in disinformation, misinformation and “fake news” are also those who most strongly claim that their freedom of expression rights are being violated when moves are made to curb hate speech (as opposed to protected ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    1 week ago
  • The Physics (and Economics, and Politics) of Wheelchairs on Planes
    Michael Schulson When Shane Burcaw flies on an airplane, he brings along a customized gel cushion, a car seat, and about 10 pieces of memory foam. The whole arsenal costs around $1,000, but for Burcaw it’s a necessity. The 27-year-old author and speaker — who, alongside his fiancée, Hannah ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • To Advance Civil Rights, Oppose Transgender Extremism
    We are very pleased to publish this submission is from Lucinda Stoan. She is a social justice activist, mother, and educator, based in Washington State in the  US.   This detailed and comprehensive source-linked overview of trans issues and what is at stake will be useful for many people, especially in ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Faafoi should be fired
    Newshub last night reported that Broadcasting Minister Kris Faafoi had apparently promised to help out a mate with an immigration issue. While its normal for people to approach MPs for assistance in this area, when you're a Minister, the rules are different: as the Cabinet Manual says, Ministers must "at ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Adrian Orr – The Reserve Bank’s Revolutionary Governor?
    New Zealand's Underarm Banker: It bears recalling that the “independence” of the Reserve Bank Governor was for decades held up by neoliberal capitalists as the most compelling justification for passing the Reserve Bank Act. Interesting, is it not, how the ruling class’s support for the Bank’s independence lasted no longer than ...
    1 week ago
  • Driving Us Up The Poll.
    Rubbish In, Rubbish Out: Put all this together, and it’s difficult to avoid the conclusion that anyone who responds positively to a pollster’s request to “answer a few questions” is just ever-so-slightly weird. Desperately lonely? Some sort of psephological train-spotter? Political party member primed to skew the poll for or against ...
    1 week ago
  • Jordan Williams, Colin Craig podcast series announced
    “Free at last, Free at last, Thank God almighty we are free at last.” ― Martin Luther King Jr. A long and bitter court feud between former Conservative Party leader Colin Craig and Jordan Williams has been settled, with an apology and compensation from Williams. On Tuesday, Craig sent out ...
    The PaepaeBy Peter Aranyi
    1 week ago
  • How plant-based meat is stretching New Zealand’s cultural and legal boundaries
    Samuel Becher, Victoria University of Wellington and Jessica C Lai, Victoria University of Wellington Earlier this year, the New Zealand-based pizza chain Hell Pizza offered a limited-edition “Burger Pizza”. Its customers weren’t told that the “meat” was plant-based. Some customers complained to the Commerce Commission, which enforces consumer law in ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • Scientific integrity requires critical investigation – not blind acceptance
    Some people seem to want to close down any critical discussion of the current research into the relationship between water fluoride and child IQ. They appear to argue that claims made by researchers should not be open to critical review and that the claims be accepted without proper consideration ...
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: The shameful reality
    The government has been congratulating itself over the passage of the Zero Carbon Act, which sets out long-term emissions targets. Meanwhile, Climate Action Tracker has the shameful reality: those targets are insufficient:While New Zealand is showing leadership by having passed the world’s second-ever Zero Carbon Act in November 2019, under ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • More secrecy
    The government introduced a Racing Industry Bill today. As an urban who horse racing as pointless-to-cruel, and gambling as a tax on stupidity and/or hope, this isn't normally a bill which would interest me in the slightest, beyond grumpiness at more government money for a dying industry. But there is ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Unlikely online bully, Liam Hehir
    Check. Check. One, two, three, four. Is this thing ON? Hello readers, I logged in last night (yeah, it’s been a while) to mark THE END of the landmark legal case, Jordan Williams v Colin Craig, which (gulp) reached The Supreme Court, in which New Zealand’s most-defamed man was suing the politician he ...
    The PaepaeBy Peter Aranyi
    1 week ago
  • The Birth Of Israel: Wrong At The Right Time.
    Before The Birth: Israel’s most fervent supporters set their clocks ticking in Biblical times. They cite the kingdoms of David and Solomon as proof that, in the words of the Exodus movie’s theme-song: “This land is mine.” The majority of Israel’s backers, however, start their clocks in 1933 – the year Adolf ...
    1 week ago
  • Hard News: Public Address Word of the Year 2019: Korero phase
    In an unreliable, strange and confusing world, Public Address is proud to present a measure of comfort and stability by annually asking everyone what words or phrases sum up the year that's been – and then giving some of them consumer goods as prizes for being clever or simply lucky.Well, ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Generalist to specialist
    Both my parents are pretty handy – and they seem to have the right tools for most jobs in the garage and they know how to fix practically anything. A similar story could be told about their generation’s experience in the workforce – being a generalist was not unusual and ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    2 weeks ago
  • A “coincidence”
    When it was revealed that NZ First had tried to enrich itself from public office via the Provoncial Growth Fund, the Prime Minister assured us that everything was OK as Shane Jones, the Minister responsible for the fund, had recused himself. Except it seems that that recusal came very late ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Member’s Day
    Today is a Member's Day, and probably the last one of the year. After the marathon of the End of Life Choice Act, most of the bills up for debate today are uncontentious. First up is the second reading of Chlöe Swarbrick's Election Access Fund Bill. This will be followed ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Worse than I thought
    The Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee has reported back on the government's odious and tyrannical control orders bill. As expected, the fraudulent select committee process has made no significant changes (partly because they couldn't agree, but mostly because it was a stitch-up from the start, with no intention of ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • The cannabis bill and the referendum
    Yesterday, the government released its draft Cannabis Legalisation and Control Bill, which will be put to a non-binding referendum at the next election. I'm not a drug policy expert, but Russell Brown is, and he thinks its pretty good. And pretty obviously, it will be a massive improvement on the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Hard News: The Cannabis Legalisation and Control Bill: pretty good so far
    As you're probably aware, the draft bill outlining the proposed legal cannabis regime to be put to a referendum late next year was published yesterday, and has already attracted a flurry of comment. It's notable that a good deal of the comment is about proposals that aren't actually new.A minimum ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Climate Change: Alignment
    One of the big problems in New Zealand climate change policy is the government working at cross-purposes with itself. It wants to reduce fossil fuel use, but encourages oil and gas exploration. It wants to reduce transport emissions, but then builds enormous new roads. The problem could be avoided if ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • How climate change will affect food production and security
    Climate Explained is a collaboration between The Conversation, Stuff and the New Zealand Science Media Centre to answer your questions about climate change. If you have a question you’d like an expert to answer, please send it to climate.change@stuff.co.nz According to the United Nations, food shortages are a threat ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    2 weeks ago
  • More bad faith
    Last year, the government announced it was ending offshore oil exploration by no longer issuing new permits. The idea was that the industry would then die off as permits expired. Except almost immediately the government revealed its bad faith, by saying they would extend permits and alter conditions to keep ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Banning foreign money from our elections
    The government has said it will ban foreign donations to political parties and candidates, and will be introducing legislation to be passed under all-stages urgency this afternoon. While I agree with the goal, I don't see a particular case for urgency, unless the government is concerned about a flood of ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Reforming the Education Acts
    The government introduced the Education and Training Bill to Parliament yesterday. Its a massive bill, which replaces both existing Education Acts, as well as various other bits of legislation (including some which are still proceeding through the House). I'll leave the serious analysis to teachers and people who actually know ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Bite-sized learning
    Amelia SharmanThere’s no one-size-fits-all when it comes to micro-credentials, those bits of bite-sized learning that can help workers stay on top of technological change.  What’s a micro-credential? While definitions vary, micro-credentials can be understood as short courses that allow people to learn new skills or have an existing competency recognised. ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    2 weeks ago
  • “Not The Labour Party We Once Knew.”
    All Smiles Now: Claire Szabo is taking up her presidential role after serving as the CEO of Habitat For Humanity. Which is absolutely perfect! After KiwiBuild was so comprehensively mismanaged by Phil Twyford, the party has not only elected a new president from a thoroughly respectable not-for-profit, but one who ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Marxist versus liberal methodology on transgender ideology/identity politics
    While much of the NZ left has transitioned to postmodern and identity politics in relation to transgender ideology, there are some very good articles about that deploy Marxist methodology in relation to this subject.  The one below is from the British marxist group Counterfire and appeared on their site here ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Book review: The Farm by Joanne Ramos
    by Daphna Whitmore At Golden Oaks, a luxurious country retreat in the Hudson Valley, pregnant women have the best care money can buy. From the organic food, personalised exercise programmes, private yoga instruction and daily massages Golden Oaks looks like a country lodge for the upper class. Set some time ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • Loosening the purse strings
    When Labour was running for election in 2017, it felt it needed to demonstrate "fiscal responsibility" and signed itself up to masochistic "budget responsibility rules". It was a fool's errand: the sorts of voters who demand fiscal responsibility are also the sorts of voters who believe that labour can never ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Climate Change: How to get there
    Writing in Stuff, Joel MacManus looks at what we need to do to meet the Zero Carbon Act's targets. The core of it:1. Convert 85 per cent of vehicles on the road to electric. 2. Eliminate fossil fuels from all industrial heating up to 300 degrees Celsius. 3. Double our ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • anti-vaxxers in a measles epidemic: so many ways to be untruthful
    “Anti-vaxers are a pro-death movement,” those comments from Dr Helen Petousis-Harris speaking about six more Measles related deaths in Samoa over the past twenty-four hours. “Anti-vaxers are a pro-death movement,” those comments from Dr Helen Petousis-Harris speaking about six more Measles related deaths in Samoa ...
    SciBlogsBy Alison Campbell
    2 weeks ago

  • Record export highs picked for primary sector
    Sustained high growth in primary industry exports looks set to continue over the next two years with strong prices predicted for farmers, fishers, growers and rural communities. Minister of Agriculture and Minister of State for Trade and Export Growth Damien O’Connor today released the latest Situation and Outlook report for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    14 hours ago
  • New partnership to boost screen sector job opportunities
    Auckland’s growing screen sector is the catalyst for a new partnership between the Ministry of Social Development and Auckland’s economic development agency Auckland Tourism, Events and Economic Development (ATEED). The launch today at FilmFX in Henderson, is to celebrate the partnership which looks to capitalise on the social and economic development opportunities ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • A minute’s silence for Whakaari White Island victims
    A minute’s silence will be observed at 2.11pm on Monday 16 December in honour of the victims of the Whakaari White Island eruption, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has confirmed. “Wherever you are in New Zealand, or around the world, this is a moment we can stand alongside those who have ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • NZ to help fund fight against measles in the Pacific region
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced New Zealand will contribute NZ$1 million of funding towards the joint United Nations Fund for Children (UNICEF) and World Health Organisation (WHO) Pacific Regional Action Plan for Measles.   “Prevention through vaccination is the most effective way of avoiding illness and a costly health emergency. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New Zealand remembers Sir Peter Snell
    New Zealand is today remembering one of our true sporting heroes, triple Olympic gold medal winner Sir Peter Snell. “He was a legend, here and around the world,” Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said. “Our thoughts are with Sir Peter’s wife Miki and their family.” “Sir Peter is recognised as New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • PM congratulates Boris Johnson on election victory
    Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has congratulated United Kingdom Prime Minister Boris Johnson on his election victory.  “New Zealand and the United Kingdom are close friends and despite our distance we are strongly connected by our history and people,” Jacinda Ardern said.  “I look forward to continuing to work with Prime ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Building a platform for the future of rail
    The Government has released its long term vision for a sustainable 21st Century rail network that gets our cities moving, connects our regions and gets more freight off the roads.   Deputy Prime Minister and State Owned Enterprises Minister Winston Peters said the Government is committed to rebuilding New Zealand’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Prime Minister statement Whakaari White Island recovery operation
    I want to start by acknowledging the families who have experienced such grief and such loss since the extraordinary tragedy on Monday. Today was all about reuniting them with their loved ones. We've just come from the airport where many of them were gathered and in amongst what you can ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New Zealand medical specialists to provide further support to Samoa
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters today announced further support for Samoa’s longer term needs as it continues to respond to a devastating measles epidemic. “Samoa’s health system has experienced massive strain in the wake of the measles epidemic. The volume of patients needing care during this outbreak, and the number of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Discounted electric-bikes offered to public sector workers
    Discounted electric bikes will be offered up to public sector staff across the country as part of the Government’s work to reduce transport emissions and support healthier transport options.  Associate Minister of Transport Julie Anne Genter officially launched the new initiative at Wellington Hospital today.  “The Government has negotiated bulk-purchase ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Australia and New Zealand confirm joint bid for FIFA Women’s World Cup
    The Australian and New Zealand Governments today launch an historic joint bid to bring the FIFA Women’s World Cup to the Southern Hemisphere for the first time. Australian Minister for Youth and Sport, Richard Colbeck and New Zealand Minister for Sport and Recreation Grant Robertson will announce the bold campaign, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Blackwater gold mine gets PGF boost
    The Provincial Growth Fund (PGF) has approved a $15 million loan to help re-establish a gold mining operation at Blackwater Gold Mine, near Reefton, Rural Communities Minister and local MP Damien O’Connor announced at an event on the West Coast today. “This is great news for the Coast that could ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Papakāinga model inspires whānau well-being
    Papakāinga model inspires whānau well-being A housing project by Kohupātiki whānau in Hastings is an outstanding example of a Māori-led housing initiative that can reduce financial pressure and reconnect whānau to their whakapapa says the Minister for Māori Development Hon Nanaia Mahuta.  Minister Mahuta officially opened the Aroha Te Rangi ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Government provides more funding for major community wetland restoration project
    Restoration efforts for a significant wetland in the Hawke’s Bay are getting more support announced Associate Minister for the Environment Eugenie Sage. “Wetlands are vital to healthy landscapes and ecosystems. They function as nature’s ‘kidneys’, filtering and protecting water quality, acting as nature’s sponges after rain and are home to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Housing First to help Nelson Tasman homeless
    Nelson has today seen the launch of Housing First Nelson Tasman. Today’s launch marks the expansion of the Government’s homelessness programme, Housing First, to the top of the South Island. “Housing First is a proven programme that puts people who are experiencing homelessness and multiple, high and complex needs into ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • New funding to support Environment Centres working for sustainable local solutions
    New Government funding announced today will help communities make a difference in tackling environmental issues Associate Minister for the Environment Eugenie Sage announced in Hawkes Bay today. The Ministry for the Environment’s Community Environment Fund is dedicating $243,101 to growing the capacity and capability of the Environment Hubs Aotearoa’s (EHA) ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Government takes bite out of loan sharks
    The days of vulnerable consumers falling victim to loan sharks, truck shops and other predatory lenders are numbered, following the Credit Contracts Legislation Amendment Bill passing its third reading tonight. “Too many Kiwis are being given loans that are unaffordable and unsuitable, trapping them in debt and leaving their families ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • New Zealand safer as Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders Bill) becomes law
    A Bill that prevents terrorism and supports the de-radicalisation of New Zealanders returning from overseas has passed its third reading, Justice Minister Andrew Little says. The Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Bill is a carefully targeted response to manage the risk posed by a small number of New Zealanders who have ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Foreign Minister and Pacific Peoples Minister to visit Samoa
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters and Minister for Pacific Peoples Aupito William Sio will travel to Samoa on Friday, where New Zealand medical teams are helping Samoa respond to an outbreak of measles. “New Zealand has been working closely with the Government of Samoa and offering our assistance from the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • New Pastoral Care Code will support tertiary students in 2020
    The Government has changed the law to improve student safety and welfare in university halls of residence and other student accommodation. The Education (Pastoral Care) Amendment Bill passed its third reading this afternoon and details of an interim Code of Practice setting out the Government’s expectations of tertiary providers have also been released. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • New infrastructure funding tool to build housing developments faster
    A new tool to help councils fund and finance infrastructure could mean some housing developments happen a decade earlier than currently planned, Urban Development Minister Phil Twyford said today. “This new tool, developed by the Government in partnership with industry and high-growth councils, will allow councils to access private debt ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Vision to unite the primary sector launched today
    Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor has welcomed the release of a bold new vision for the country’s vital food and fibre sector. “I’m delighted that New Zealand’s major farmer and grower organisations are today supporting the Primary Sector Council’s vision – Fit for a Better World,” he said. “The international consumers ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • NZ congratulates PNG and Autonomous Bougainville Government on referendum
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has congratulated the Government of Papua New Guinea and the Autonomous Bougainville Government for completing a well-conducted referendum on the future political status of Bougainville. “New Zealand supported the referendum process by providing technical advice through the New Zealand Electoral Commission and leading a Regional Police ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Next steps for Upper North Island logistics
    In light of Cabinet’s position that freight operations on prime land in downtown Auckland are no longer viable, the Government will now embark on a short work programme to enable decision-making in the first half of next year, Associate Transport Minister Shane Jones says. Minister Jones is today releasing the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Surgical mesh restorative justice report received
    Associate Health Minister Julie Anne Genter has received the report back from a surgical mesh restorative justice process undertaken by Victoria University. The process heard stories, either in person or online submission, from more than 600 people affected by surgical mesh. “The report made for heart-breaking and confronting reading,” says ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • The Water Services Regulator Bill – Taumata Arowai a milestone for drinking water safety
    The Water Services Regulator Bill – Taumata Arowai , introduced to Parliament today, is a milestone for drinking water safety in New Zealand and will help improve environmental outcomes for urban waterways, rivers and lakes.  “This is a breakthrough for New Zealanders in terms of providing safe drinking water throughout ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Speech to new direction for criminal justice reform announcement
    Kia ora koutouE ngā mana, e ngā reo, e ngā matā wakaTēnā koutou katoaHaere ngā, moe maiKoutou ma ngā Rangatira Ko Anaru ahauKo au te Minita mo ngā TureHe Honore tino nui kei roto I ahau No reira tena koutou katoa Today, we are releasing two reports that are the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
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  • New Zealand’s National Statement to COP25
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  • Strong economy, careful spending gives $12bn of surpluses
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  • Priorities for 2020 Wellbeing Budget outlined
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  • DART Buoys Announcement
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  • Funding to promote New Zealand Sign Language initiatives
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