As on we go, drowning

164 comments on “As on we go, drowning ”

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1. Jackal 1

   30 January 2013 at 7:59 am

   higherstandard

   …why not just ignore him?

   You can’t ignore a government that’s overseeing the biggest downgrade to our living standards ever seen higherstandard… Not unless you’re truly deluded.

   I think the main thing here is to not let that despair be directed at the wrong people, and also to use that despair as fuel to work against National’s destructive agenda.

   You’re already doing that Zetetic, and as long as people don’t give up, there’s still hope that we can save New Zealand.
   • muzza 1.1

     30 January 2013 at 8:46 am

     You’re already doing that Zetetic, and as long as people don’t give up, there’s still hope that we can save New Zealand.

     Jakal, its an important point you make, as the conclusion one could draw is that the desired outcome, is for people to give up. 800,000 of them already did last election, and how many hundreds of 000’s, have given up and departed NZ!

     The sense of despair and helplessness, is part of the programme, break it, break it all, is the name of the (decades old) game!

     Those who are still here, and paying attention need to understand quickly, that sitting back and hoping is not going to stop whats happening, and what is coming!
   • Gosman 1.2

     30 January 2013 at 9:26 am

     “You can’t ignore a government that’s overseeing the biggest downgrade to our living standards ever seen higherstandard…”

     Really??? This is based on what in the way of evidence?
     • Mr Burns 1.2.1

       30 January 2013 at 9:38 am

       Yes I agree with Gosman. I have checked my own personal circumstances and I can see no evidence whatsoever of a drop in my living standards, in fact they have gone up.

       All hail King John …
       • Lightly 1.2.1.1

         30 January 2013 at 11:11 am

         I’m alright, Jack…
         • the pink postman 1.2.1.1.1

           30 January 2013 at 1:48 pm

           Thats puting it mildly Lightly. but contempt comes to mind.
       • North 1.2.1.2

         30 January 2013 at 1:34 pm

         Love your style Mr Burns and seriously believe that you’re mischievously tongue in cheek.

         Cannot say the same about Gosman however. The arrant cheek of it. Imagine the idiocy of assessing the lot of the rest of the world by reference to how he/she personally is doing. Reflected in this imaginary statement – “I’m employed so it’s not at 7.3% and all is hunky dory”.

         Demanding “evidence” quite as Gosman does stamps him/her as a sneering pedant who insists on defying the reality with snotty verbiage. If he/she knows anything he/she knows the evidence demanded IS there, trotted out or not. Rather than accept that he/she chooses to demonstrate his/her gross intellectual dishonesty and a good measure of “I couldn’t give a fuck…..” social twistedness.

         Grow up Grossman/woman. Have a read of Jackal below and come back acknowledging or apologising.
     • Jackal 1.2.2

       30 January 2013 at 9:46 am

       More govt debt under National than all the other previous New Zealand government’s combined, inequality at the highest levels ever, child poverty increasing from 20% to 25% since 2009, unemployment at the highest rate in 13 years and worsening, declining home ownership and more Kiwi’s leaving New Zealand than ever before etc etc.
       • Gosman 1.2.2.1

         30 January 2013 at 10:14 am

         Just a few clarifying facts for you.

         The important part of Government debt is not how high it is but how much it is compared to the GDP in the country. In this regard NZ government debt is far lower than what it reached in 1986 where it hit over 70 percent. It currently stands just under 40 percent.

         As you pointed out, unemployment is the highest in 13 years. Which obviously means 13 years ago it was worse.

         Child poverty rates have also been much higher in the past, (close to 30 percent).

         Declining levels of home ownership is not necessarily a reflection of economic malaise. The Germans have a very low rate of home ownership yet have a strong economy.

         What is more important than the numbers leaving is net migration flows. Once again the numbers here suggest net migration was much more negative in the past than we see now.

         I’m comfortable if you want to continue with the etc etc as it has been pretty easy to debunk all the claims you made so far.
         • mickysavage 1.2.2.1.1

           30 January 2013 at 10:44 am

           Come on Gossie. Government debt in 2008 was zero and is now 40% of GDP. Obviously the work of a financial genius.

           So unemployment was worse in 1999 and we are meant to celebrate this?

           Interestingly it was during the last National Government.

           Child poverty only decreased because of working for families which this Government would cut in an instant if it thought it could get away with it.

           Declining levels of home ownership are a symptom of the flow of wealth from the poor and middle class to the rich.

           And migration is important because Key said it was. How can you say otherwise now?

           Keep digging Gossie …
           • Gosman 1.2.2.1.1.1

             30 January 2013 at 10:55 am

             Where did you get the information that Government Debt was zero in 2008?
             • Jackal …

               30 January 2013 at 11:25 am

               Accounting for operational surpluses gives net government debt of zero in 2008.
           • Gosman 1.2.2.1.1.2

             30 January 2013 at 10:57 am

             It’s only important to you. I think Key was an idiot for making an issue out of migration flow to Aussie myself.
         • Jackal 1.2.2.1.2

           30 January 2013 at 10:49 am

           Gosman

           The important part of Government debt is not how high it is but how much it is compared to the GDP in the country. In this regard NZ government debt is far lower than what it reached in 1986 where it hit over 70 percent. It currently stands just under 40 percent.

           If you think the only important part to National’s more than 190% increase in government debt is our GDP and the government’s ability to service that debt through higher taxes, while our economy remains stagnant, you’re off your rocker gosman.

           Government debt to GDP fell from 30.7% in March 1993 to as low as 9.1% in March 2007 under a Labour government. We had a Piggy Muldoon’s National government to thank for the previous high rate of govt debt.

           As you pointed out, unemployment is the highest in 13 years. Which obviously means 13 years ago it was worse.

           So you’re OK with unemployment doubling under a John Key National led government?

           Child poverty rates have also been much higher in the past, (close to 30 percent).

           Could you link to this information please?

           Declining levels of home ownership is not necessarily a reflection of economic malaise. The Germans have a very low rate of home ownership yet have a strong economy.

           So people not being able to afford to buy their own homes indicates a strong economy? Riiighhttt!

           What is more important than the numbers leaving is net migration flows. Once again the numbers here suggest net migration was much more negative in the past than we see now.

           Net migration loss has increased under a National government… You’ll have to do better than that Gosman.
           • mickysavage 1.2.2.1.2.1

             30 January 2013 at 10:52 am

             Crown debt was effectively nil if you take into account the Cullen fund and ACC reserves in 2008.
             • Jackal …

               30 January 2013 at 11:02 am

               Yes! I’m quoting what I think is operational debt without taking into account surpluses. I’m also incorrect, it fell to a low of 8.9% in June 2007.

               Can you guess what government managed that Gosman?
           • Gosman 1.2.2.1.2.2

             30 January 2013 at 11:00 am

             You seem to have missed the point which is not that the measures you have identified have got worse but they are the worst that they have ever been in NZ history. This is plainly untrue as you yourself have pointed out.
             • Jackal …

               30 January 2013 at 11:05 am

               The assertion is that the current National government under John Key has overseen the largest downgrade to our living standards that New Zealand has ever experienced. There might be a couple of things where other National governments have done worse, but on the whole you’ve not convincingly shown that there has ever been a worse government.
               • Gosman …

                 30 January 2013 at 11:14 am

                 For a start I showed you that it has been worse in the past. As for biggest fall I would argue that both the Great Depression and the reforms of the mid 1980’s and early 1990’s were accompanied by a bigger fall in standards of living for the average NZer. I can grab data for you if you disagree. Do you disagree?
                 • felixviper …

                   30 January 2013 at 11:21 am

                   Off you fuck then, go get your data.
                   • McFlock …

                     30 January 2013 at 12:54 pm

                     I reckon it’s theoretically possible that gos might be able to demonstrate that this is only the worst government since the Depression, rather than worst. govt. ever.

                     I’m fascinated as to what he thinks counts as evidence, though.
                   • felixviper …

                     30 January 2013 at 1:43 pm

                     Me too McF 😉
                 • North …

                   30 January 2013 at 1:38 pm

                   Give us the data dork !
                   • Tim …

                     30 January 2013 at 3:18 pm

                     I’m afraid he’ll only give us the dork.
                 • Draco T Bastard …

                   30 January 2013 at 2:54 pm

                   For a start I showed you that it has been worse in the past.

                   Actually, you’ve made some assertions but have shown absolutely nothing. Typical Tory debating: Make shit up and then say that you’ve proved everything.
     • Draco T Bastard 1.2.3

       30 January 2013 at 2:44 pm

       Really??? This is based on what in the way of evidence?

       Median Household Income Falls
     • Polish Pride 1.2.4

       30 January 2013 at 3:46 pm

       You still working for a living everyday Gos…..?
   • the pink postman 1.3

     30 January 2013 at 2:10 pm

     After listening to the unbievable achoholic fired shrieking of Key it was
     a most pleasent surprise hear the excellent speech by David Shearer . It was not Lange speak but it was bloody good and he will improve quite a bit .
     It certainly made me and my wife feel good. The other feel good aspect was the way Labour and the Greens are working together, This must be scaring the Nats .we must be on our guard to make sure Crosby /Textor do not try to drive a wedge between us. Because believe me this is causing them a guts ache .
2. lprent 2

   30 January 2013 at 7:59 am

   Unfortunately the idiot is misusing my taxes.
3. IrishBill 3

   30 January 2013 at 8:02 am

   My apologies HS, I went to reply to your comment and accidentally clicked the moderation button. Unfortunately I’ve no idea where your comment has gone. Lynn – little help?

   [lprent: I have no idea. I replied to that comment as well. I’m rather busy at work right now. But I just looked and can’t see it. ]
   • geoff 3.1

     30 January 2013 at 9:08 am

     Hahaha nice one, what did Freud say about accidents?
   • higherstandard 3.2

     30 January 2013 at 10:45 am

     Ha

     No problem IB, it’s not the first and it won’t be the last time some of my drivel disappears.
4. karol 4

   30 January 2013 at 8:23 am

   He sounds like someone delivering an after dinner speech, after he (and his cheer-leading supporters) have imbibed a few too many bevvies.

   Does he take the job of running the country seriously?
   • marsman 4.1

     30 January 2013 at 9:28 am

     Heard part of his ‘speech’ on the radio. It was a screeching whine about Labour and the Greens and how they want to spend other peoples’ money. Amazing how arseholes like Key and English can accuse others of actions they themselves perpetrate, like mismanaging the economy, spending billions of dollars on Roads of National Party Significance etc.
5. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 5

   30 January 2013 at 8:36 am

   The shorter Zetetic:

   Nothing for me.

   In his world the purpose of government is to give him stuff for nothing.
   • CV - Real Labour 5.1

     30 January 2013 at 8:41 am

     It is the role of the Government to protect and look after the interests of all its citizens, and to protect and look after the interests of the sovereign nation.

     In exchange, citizens are required to obey the nations laws and regulations, to pay taxes, and receive the opportunity to participate in democratic society.

     That shouldn’t be a hard concept for even you to grasp, right?
     • Afewknowthetruth 5.1.1

       30 January 2013 at 9:29 am

       Don’t be so silly. it is the role of government to protect and promote the interests of money-lenders and corporations.

       The New Zealand Company…………

       Enough breadcrumbs have to be allowed to fall off the table to prevent insurrection.
       • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.1

         30 January 2013 at 3:01 pm

         Unfortunately true under the capitalist system.
     • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 5.1.2

       30 January 2013 at 9:32 am

       No. The role of government is to give Zet stuff, apparently.
       • rosy 5.1.2.1

         30 January 2013 at 9:50 am

         Was Zetetic’s sentence too long for you to quote in full, or just too long to read so you skipped a bit here and there?
     • Andre 5.1.3

       30 January 2013 at 9:37 am

       http://t.co/dUPM2Ems This stat is why ShonKey is taking our future .
       • Gosman 5.1.3.1

         30 January 2013 at 9:45 am

         Which stat?
         • Andre 5.1.3.1.1

           30 January 2013 at 9:54 am

           Ok .Graph.
           • Gosman 5.1.3.1.1.1

             30 January 2013 at 10:17 am

             Ok then, what part of that graph do you think suggests John Key is taking your future?
             • North …

               30 January 2013 at 1:40 pm

               You’re shrieking like a drowning man/woman Grossman/woman.
             • Blue …

               30 January 2013 at 4:16 pm

               None of it does Gos. All the graph shows is that less household income is used to service debt since 2008, interest rates are much lower since 2008 and overall household debt is lower since 2008. All are trending downward. Any logical human being would say this is a good thing. If, as Andre asserts, the graph shows where John Key is taking us, long may it continue.
       • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 5.1.3.2

         30 January 2013 at 9:50 am

         Andre, are you alarmed by the in increase in household debt shown in the graph?

         Do you consider this to be the government’s fault?

         Tell us: what happened in the graph between 1999 and 2008? Then tell us who was in government then. Then tell us what has happened to the graph since, and who has been in government during that period.
         • Andre 5.1.3.2.1

           30 January 2013 at 9:59 am

           The GFC Reset all past economic thinking ,The lesson is to have a sustainable NZ in all respects
           • Gosman 5.1.3.2.1.1

             30 January 2013 at 10:19 am

             Really? How come not many other countries agree with this view and most are following pretty orthodox economic paths?

             I think you are suffering from wishful thinking.
             • Polish Pride …

               30 January 2013 at 3:52 pm

               Because Gos they are in a Capitalist system driven by a profit motive and follow the advice of economists who fail to understand the true problem that needs to be solved within a society by any system.
           • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 5.1.3.2.1.2

             30 January 2013 at 1:35 pm

             Bit confused, Andre. John Key is taking our future somewhere bad because of something to do with household debt. Except that it has decreased during the term of his government.
         • Poission 5.1.3.2.2

           30 January 2013 at 10:08 am

           Since the GFC ie since 2007 household debts portion of external debt has increased by 28 billion.

           Similarly the farming sector has also increased by around 15b$ mostly due to increased land purchases eg Crafer .

           Unbridled land and property debt inflation is not sustainable.
         • You_Fool 5.1.3.2.3

           30 January 2013 at 9:30 pm

           I am no economist, but the way I read the graph between 1999 & 2008 is that the majority of NZ homeowners felt so secure in the future, both personal and national economic growth, that they felt comfortable taking on extra debt, i.e. they were confident that their jobs would still be there and that the future would mean more money for them. Since 2008 this optimistic outlook has stagnated, or turned to a more pessimistic one, in which people are less confident about the future economic outcomes and thus have paid down, or not taken out any more debt.

           This tells me that the government between 99 & 08 was one that helped the economy and NZ and had good economic sense, whilst the one since 08 has been less so…

           Is that also how you read the graph?
       • Jackal 5.1.3.3

         30 January 2013 at 10:16 am

         The graph you’ve linked to Andre shows a small decline in household debt since National gained power. This is mainly due to the tax cuts for the rich, who have used some of that money to pay down debt mainly on their properties.

         However you need to understand that that money is being borrowed by National, with government debt increasing by more than 190% between Sep. 2008 and Sep, 2012. So a decrease in household debt of around 1% paid for by an increase in government debt of around 190%.
         • Andre 5.1.3.3.1

           30 January 2013 at 10:30 am

           Thanks for your intelligent breakdown of the graph . My Brain hurts .
           • Gosman 5.1.3.3.1.1

             30 January 2013 at 10:46 am

             So you posted a link to information you didn’t really understand did you?

             I would call that bizarre but typical is more apt I believe.
             • Andre …

               30 January 2013 at 10:49 am

               Gosman … Hope your mum loves you…
         • bad12 5.1.3.3.2

           30 January 2013 at 10:55 am

           Aha, what it showed was that while those with the billions dollars of private debt continue to pay this off as mortgage repayments,(where most of the debt is), the slowing of the rise in house prices over an 18 month-2 year period particularly in Auckland that recently ended with recent prices trending upward dramatically allowed for the drop in overall debt,

           A year from now the overall debt figure will have risen again and remain on an increasing track upward while house prices continue to rise,

           In other words a blip while the housing market took a breath of air…
   • onsos 5.2

     30 January 2013 at 9:58 am

     What do you base that insult on?
   • bad12 5.3

     30 January 2013 at 10:00 am

     Don’t be pathetic you gormless-dickhead, Something for Me from this Failure of a Slippery lead National Government could be the start of a food in schools program for decile 1-3 kids,

     I would not have any personal gain from that now or into the future, but, such a program would definitely be considered something for me…
6. ad 6

   30 January 2013 at 8:51 am

   Crikey Zetetic. Turn off National Radio and the TV and the internet for a while and get an icecream.

   Best cure for the political blues is to join some local activist group and focus on improving a community. Habitat for Humanity. Salvation Army. A community garden.

   There’s still 19 months before anything is even possible; November 2014. Just displace hope from your mind. It’s not useful. Get to work on something concrete.

   The progressives will coalesce. They are already working together on some things. Entropy will shortly slow down.
   • Afewknowthetruth 6.1

     30 January 2013 at 9:23 am

     Definitely turn off National Radio and television -they are just propaganda outlets. But spend more time on the Internet. And look in the right places.
     • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 6.1.1

       30 January 2013 at 9:55 am

       But spend more time on the Internet. And look in the right places.

       If ever there was an advertisement for spending less time on the internet, you are it, Afewknowthetruth.
       • Gosman 6.1.1.1

         30 January 2013 at 10:45 am

         But how else will you find out about the Evil Elvis impersonating Jewish Bankster Reptillian Aliens who are slowly taking over the world while at the same time controlling everything already?
         • Polish Pride 6.1.1.1.1

           30 January 2013 at 3:57 pm

           Or it may just open your mind to possibilities that don’t include perpetuating a system designed (evolved) by man that sees man then working for the majority of his life, rather than doing the things that he’d really like to be doing…. but some people aren’t quite ready for anything that requires thinking outside the bounds of the current system.
           • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 6.1.1.1.1.1

             30 January 2013 at 5:11 pm

             You don’t want to go around perpetuating the stereotype that left wingers are lazy, Polish Pride.
             • Polish Pride …

               30 January 2013 at 9:29 pm

               Your right, I don’t, I want people to take a good hard look at the system and start asking some serious questions about it.
               The resources exist
               Peoples needs are predominantly the same and as everyone has them why is the system not designed to provide those needs for everyone. They are ‘needs’ after all.
               I always think it is best to look at those needs from the point of an innocent child.
               Love
               food
               a home
               clothing
               an education
               should a child be denied any of that anywhere in the world? If the answer to this is no, then should anyone be denied these things?

               I want people to think about the fact that in the current system everything you want is pretty much available. We have the ability to make just about anything. If you want it chances are you can have it…….provided you have the money
               In fact I want people to understand that not everyone has these needs and the barrier to them having them is money. The barrier to almost anything that we want to do is money.
               I want people to see that we have the technology to automate a significant percentage of jobs so that people no longer need to work or can work significantly less in society instead of ‘having’ to work n order to earn money to survive.
               I want people to imagine removing money from the world then for simplicities sake imagine doing everything they do today but without needing money.
               You need food? You go to the supermarket and get food, you still put it through a checkout but only for stock taking purposes to replenish supply. You need a car you get a car.
               Almost everyone dreams of winning lotto and not having to work anymore and being able to do the things they want to do. The thing is people can have that, we just need to start moving the system in a new direction.
               I want people to understand that the most basic problem the system should solve is how to supply peoples needs and wants. Thats it!
               Its not about the economy, Its not about affordable housing, Its not about jobs. The only reason people need jobs is to make money so they can buy the things they need and want so someone else can make a profit so that they can buy the things that they inturn need and want and so on.
               Just give people what they need and want – sound stupid? The stupid thing is when you realize that we are already making the things that everyone needs and wants anyway.
               We are already using the resources. In fact we use far more than we need to, because we have to KEEP producing stuff in order to continuosly sell it to make money just to survive.
               Its not about being lazy Its about seeing the stupidity of the system and how it can be changed for everyone.
               Consider this… Man has built things throughout history to make his life easier to work for him, The wheel, the screw driver, the power drill ‘The System’ is the only thing ever that man has built that he has to work for. .. and he has to do it in order to survive.
               It is time to change the system to work for and provide the needs and wants of Man …and woman and child. For everyone.
               • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell …

                 31 January 2013 at 8:29 am

                 Free food, love and cars for everyone. Sounds like a modest goal.
   • Colonial Weka 6.2

     30 January 2013 at 1:46 pm

     Ad, while I agree that having a break from the news is a good idea, I also think that honest expressions of despair are healthy.

     While community gardens and such are vital too, I think we have much political work to do now, not just in 18 months time. The Greens are going from strength to strength, not sitting waiting for the next election. Mana are focussed too. As well as despair at the damage Key is doing, there are practical political actions that can be taken now.
7. Chris 7

   30 January 2013 at 9:09 am

   This guy is RUINING the country.He never talks people,just money.You could just about feel sorry for him, someone with nothing to offer but grip n grin photo ops, a bad hairpiece, ill fitting suits and a hollow emptiness.He’s tried everything except actually running the country for the people and not for his own personal gain and gain for all those he is desperate to impress and be like.A sorry little man.
   • Gosman 7.1

     30 January 2013 at 9:29 am

     And yet he is by far the most popular politician in the country. That must rip your undies.
     • geoff 7.1.1

       30 January 2013 at 9:34 am

       So you don’t disagree that is ruining the country and, judging by the ripped undie insult, you still support him? You’re quite the misanthrope, I’ll give you that.
       • Gosman 7.1.1.1

         30 January 2013 at 10:42 am

         No, no I don’t agree (or more accurately I do disagree) that he is ruining the country.
         • framu 7.1.1.1.1

           30 January 2013 at 12:27 pm

           so make the argument then – instead of acting like a dick all up and down this thread
     • bad12 7.1.2

       30 January 2013 at 10:05 am

       Ha ha ha soon to be dealt to in November 2014 by one of the most unpopular Labour leaders ever, betcha that like Slippery the Prime Minister makes you leave stains in your nappies…
       • infused 7.1.2.1

         30 January 2013 at 10:18 am

         Mr S won’t make it to 2014.
         • bad12 7.1.2.1.1

           30 January 2013 at 10:45 am

           Who cares, i f**king don’t, it’s what a Government will shape this country into that matters to me not some political pretty boy contest where the Prime Minister feels the need to debase the office by behaving like a fool because he thinks people like Him for it…
         • King Kong 7.1.2.1.2

           30 January 2013 at 10:49 am

           Exactly. Why don’t you chaps stop wasting your time and energy ripping on Key.

           Shearer is the real enemy and if you keep stamping your feet like petulant children then I am sure you will be able to topple him.

           Here, I will help you get back on the right track – “Shearer doesn’t speak very well”, discuss.
           • bad12 7.1.2.1.2.1

             30 January 2013 at 10:57 am

             F**k off you pathetic piece of s**t…
             • Tim …

               30 January 2013 at 3:22 pm

               After my question to KK yesterday, there goes a guy that simply delights in goading for the sake of it in order to exercise an ego. Uphill. Shit.Push
             • Polish Pride …

               30 January 2013 at 4:01 pm

               You gave him exactly the response he was looking for. He is now laughing at you.
8. Afewknowthetruth 8

   30 January 2013 at 9:18 am

   After spending more than a decade trying to wake people up to the reality of energy depletion, environmental collapse, and control of society by sociopaths I gave up last year.

   Most people are:

   ignorant

   stupid

   stubborn.

   And they don’t want to know.

   So, yes, another few years of looting and polluting, with the general populace being misled and lied to constantly by our so-called leaders as they are driven off the cliff edge is more or less certain. Indeed, further steps along the road to overt fascism are more or less certain: more drones, more surveillance, more rules and regulations, more transfer of the commons into the hands of the few.

   Oil has broken through the 110 to 112 range it has been manipulated in for the past several months, and the bond market is close to capitulation, with Britain recording negative GDP growth and France being declared bankrupt.

   So, we might have to wait till 2014 for ‘the recovery’.

   Back to my garden projects. Gardening is one of the few things that makes any sense these days.

   By the way, I NEVER listen to anything Key says. It’s all drivel and a complete waste of my time. Much the same for any other politician.
   • King Kong 8.1

     30 January 2013 at 9:38 am

     Or most people are;

     Discerning

     Educated

     Realists

     Polite

     And you are a fucking nutter.
     • Jackal 8.1.1

       30 January 2013 at 10:06 am

       Or Afewknowthetruth is just highlighting the fact that there are a lot of ignorant and stubborn New Zealanders around.

       Let’s put it this way, In 2006 there was approximately 73% of the population earning between $30,000 and $120,000 (adjusted for inflation) per year making them middle class. In 2012, that percentage fell to around 40%, with no gain to the amount of people in the upper class and a huge increase in the lower class ie those earning under $30,000 per year. Despite this, 55% of the population still believes they are middle class.

       Prior to this, median annual personal income from all sources increased 56% between 1996 to 2006.
       • King Kong 8.1.1.1

         30 January 2013 at 10:10 am

         And let me guess, these ignorant and stubborn Kiwi’s are all voting the wrong way.
         • Jackal 8.1.1.1.1

           30 January 2013 at 10:19 am

           I’m not sure there’s any data on that, but it would seem that anybody who votes National would have to be a bit ignorant about what’s going on.
           • Andre 8.1.1.1.1.1

             30 January 2013 at 10:40 am

             So NZ being bashed with the thought of us being like Greece on Tv .Keeps us thinking were well off and Nats saved us….
     • Polish Pride 8.1.2

       30 January 2013 at 4:25 pm

       Still working everyday for a living KIng Kong? Never stopped to think why the system is the way it is…? Unfortunately Afewknowthetruth is right – most people are asleep or are so busy working for the system, trying to provide for a family or simply just trying to survive they simply just do not have the time to think why? Why is the system this way? How would I want it to be? Then if most people would want the same, to spend less time working, more time with family and friends, No war, No poeverty, more time, less suffering. If most people want those things, what stops us from having them or at least being on a path to obtaining them.
       War is a trillion dollar industry…. you really think your going to see less of it under a Capitalist profit driven system? You think its just dumb luck that we have an obesity problem in the West while people starve in African nations.. I could go on and on but you are probably not ready to wake up or perhaps are pretty happy with your lot and quite simply don’t want to. After all this is your experience.
       • King Kong 8.1.2.1

         30 January 2013 at 4:30 pm

         What are the chances of having two people who can see the truth when the rest of the world can’t, commenting on the same site?

         It’s like if spiderman and superman went to the same school.
         • Polish Pride 8.1.2.1.1

           30 January 2013 at 4:41 pm

           Everyones truth is different KK….
         • Rogue Trooper 8.1.2.1.2

           30 January 2013 at 9:30 pm

           now, that’s funny cheetah!
   • Gosman 8.2

     30 January 2013 at 9:38 am

     Yes why can’t people see the light and just hand total power to someone who knows all the answers? Someone like you for example.
     • Polish Pride 8.2.1

       30 January 2013 at 4:27 pm

       It is not about handing the power to anyone. It is about putting it back where it should be. With everyone.
   • Gosman 8.3

     30 January 2013 at 9:39 am

     Who declared France bankrupt?
     • King Kong 8.3.1

       30 January 2013 at 9:46 am

       It was the peppermint fairies who guard the arc of the peak energy apocolypse.

       Did you not read it in the news?
       • Gosman 8.3.1.1

         30 January 2013 at 10:23 am

         I seem to recall something along those lines. It was right after the Marshmellow Elves nicked all of Greece’s money to fund their cover up of the real causes of the September the 11th 2001 attacks.
     • Afewknowthetruth 8.3.2

       30 January 2013 at 1:22 pm

       The French employment minister, Michel Sapin.

       As I said, most people are

       ignorant

       stupid

       stubborn….

       in particular KK and Gosman

       .
       • Gosman 8.3.2.1

         30 January 2013 at 9:19 pm

         Pierre Moscovici, the [French] finance minister, said the comments by Mr Sapin were “inappropriate”.

         http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9832845/France-totally-bankrupt-says-labour-minister-Michel-Sapin.html

         It seems as if the French themselves can’t decide if they are bankrupt or not. a Politician’s opinion is hardly persuassive evidence or do you believe everything that comes out of the mouths of the Politician’s you agree with?
9. King Kong 9

   30 January 2013 at 9:25 am

   Most popular Prime Minister ever. He must be doing something right.

   You can almost audibly hear the spirit breaking and sobs of anguish in this post. It made me feel a bit creepy how much I enjoyed it.
   • Afewknowthetruth 9.1

     30 January 2013 at 9:32 am

     Lies come easily to you, King Kong.

     Michael Joseph Savage.
     • Gosman 9.1.1

       30 January 2013 at 9:36 am

       Is that a quote from Micky Savage? What did he have against King Kong?
       • King Kong 9.1.1.1

         30 January 2013 at 10:14 am

         I promised him a trip up the Empire State building when he was in New York but when he called I was playing a game of hide the banana with Mrs Kong so had to blow him out.

         Made him incredibly cross.
   • Gosman 9.2

     30 January 2013 at 9:33 am

     Totally agree. The more the left focus on John Key the less they spend on developing effective campaigns to take back the government benches.
     • bad12 9.2.1

       30 January 2013 at 10:12 am

       What do you think got the Slippery little Shyster suddenly dropping His prepared speech to screech like a demented banshee at the opposition Party’s,

       Could it be that He knows the political rug has been ripped out from under His feet by the announcement of Labour/Green housing policies,

       Or was the emitting of a tantrum worthy of a 4 year old simply because He didn’t get it all His way as the combined opposition Labour/Green/NZFirst (who incidently would thrash National if an election were held tomorrow), will not blindly bow down to His choice of Parliament’s Speaker…
       • infused 9.2.1.1

         30 January 2013 at 10:20 am

         As if. One policy? Not even a good one. Get a grip.
         • bad12 9.2.1.1.1

           30 January 2013 at 10:35 am

           Oh so Slippery the Prime Minister often throws tantrums befitting a 4 year old when others show ideas that oppose His own???
           • infused 9.2.1.1.1.1

             30 January 2013 at 10:07 pm

             Only one that throws tantrums around here is you.
       • Gosman 9.2.1.2

         30 January 2013 at 10:28 am

         How many mainstream commentators are taking the view that John Key “screech[ed] like a demented banshee at the opposition Party’s”?

         I personally think this is just you and some of of your hard core lefty comrades.
         • felixviper 9.2.1.2.1

           30 January 2013 at 10:34 am

           bookmarking…
     • bad12 9.2.2

       30 January 2013 at 10:40 am

       Can you raise your side of the debate above the level of pathetic please, us lot have plenty of energy left over after tearing strips of the Slippery little Shyster we have as Prime Minister to put forward our views on policy,

       Obviously Slippery had nothing new to announce yesterday as His supporters, you among them spend all their spare time being wankers on other peoples web-sites…
   • bad12 9.3

     30 January 2013 at 10:16 am

     The only thing i hear is the flatulence as you break wind to spread your bull-s**t on this web-page…
10. VivaciousViper 10

    30 January 2013 at 9:29 am

    Like i said on another post NZ just can’t have another 2yrs of this nact govt, labour
    have not shifted since the last election in the polls, the writing was on the wall when
    Goff was the leader,i for one crosssed my toes and fingers hoping against hope that
    we could just sneak in, roll on to now and we have the same problem with Shearer,
    do we just sit on our hands and wait for some sensible decisions from the mp’s
    inside caucus to allow a wider vote on leadership, this is the only way that will
    end the negative opinion of Shearer’s leadership, the time is now, in order to unify
    the base and supporters/members and then we can concentrate on the real problems
    ahead for NZ and its people and also to be ready for a snap election, which i see as a real possibilty.
    • Gosman 10.1

      30 January 2013 at 9:35 am

      “Like i said on another post NZ just can’t have another 2yrs of this nact govt”

      Ummmm… yes, yes it can. You might not like it but suck it up. It is called democracy. The party in government doesn’t always do what you think it should.
      • muzza 10.1.1

        30 January 2013 at 10:06 am

        What do you think it should do Gosman, or are you comfortable with the current heading?
        • Gosman 10.1.1.1

          30 January 2013 at 10:32 am

          I personally would like to see changes to working for families, Interest free student loans, National Superannuation entitlements and more reforms of the core public service plus an increased focus on early childhood education. However I acknowledge that it is unlikely to happen in the current political climate. I certainly don’t think the country is going to hell anytime soon like the Cassandra’s that populate this blog.
          • muzza 10.1.1.1.1

            30 January 2013 at 10:48 am

            Nothing from you which would lead anywhere useful then Gosman!

            Its already turned to custard mate, some are more insulated, and ignorant than others, so the timeline becomes elongated, but the outcomes are currently priced in!
      • scotty 10.1.2

        30 January 2013 at 10:35 am

        Democracy, Suck it up, Just like National did with Ecan.
        What heroes.
      • Polish Pride 10.1.3

        30 January 2013 at 4:30 pm

        If you think that this is democracy then you simply do not understand the meaning of the word.
11. Bill 11

    30 January 2013 at 9:35 am

    So – on the one hand what we have is these ‘hands off’ hands pushing our heads under water. And on the other hand we have those ‘hands on’ hands clasped steadfastly around the oars and rowing with the current and prevailing wind while mumbling vaguely about doing things differently?

    I reckon that, that – oh joy – about sums up our current position.

    (sigh)

    Any prospect of getting some air would be nice…
12. blue leopard 12

    30 January 2013 at 9:41 am

    I haven’t read the comments above yet, I thought Key looked scared and that heartened me. It made me feel that despite all the concern expressed on this site, it may be that Labour and the Greens are doing something that Key knows threatens his popularity; if he is looking rattled, this seems likely. My guess what is rattling him/Nats is the way Labour&Greens appear to be working in tandem to pick up as much of the range of left-wing votes as they can. Good one Labour and Greens.

    I will, however, feel exactly as Zetetic writes, if the next set of polls indicate no loss of confidence in the Nats, whose only real offer in Key’s speech appeared to be building prisons, which, I must say, Key looked well excited with. Horrible.
    • bad12 12.1

      30 January 2013 at 10:24 am

      +1, Yes indeed, you can tell when Slippery is in His element or not, compare the recent sacking of Cabinet Ministers Heatley and Wilkinson with His comments to the gathered media after yesterdays little tantrum and the difference is stark,

      When He is caught out, ill at ease, or scared our Prime Minister develops a certain lisp in His voice that doesn’t quite reach lisp and the inflection suddenly takes on undertones of a small child who is unhappy having had the ice-cream snatched from His hand…
    • Polish Pride 12.2

      30 January 2013 at 4:35 pm

      Don’t – even if the polls indicate no drop in popularity, remember they are probably using landlines and will not be tapping into the growing level of unhappiness of younger voters for who are experiencing the greatest levels of unemployment and have the kiwi dream of owning a home getting further and further away.. I suspect the polls may not show this all that well
13. Bearded Git 13

    30 January 2013 at 10:08 am

    The big worry is that over those next 2 years Key and cronies will gut the RMA. Sustainable Management will become Sustainable Development in Section 5 of the Act and the landscape protections under Section 6 will be watered down to become meaningless. The good thing is that this should be so controversial that it will see National voted out. Labour should pledge to reverse these changes if they get in.
14. AmaKiwi 14

    30 January 2013 at 10:12 am

    Despair. That’s what I feel comparing Winston’s attack on Key to Shearer’s.

    Captain Mumblefuck ain’t got it. Never will.

    Goff, King, Mallard, Parker, Robertson really fucked up the Labour Party.
    • bad12 14.1

      30 January 2013 at 10:28 am

      Glee tho is ‘knowing’ that should an election be held tomorrow this FAILURE of a Slippery lead National Government would end up as a floor rag used by the combined opposition of Labour/Green/NZFirst/Mana to mop up after National dispatch the Shyster back from whence He came…
    • tc 14.2

      30 January 2013 at 10:58 am

      Goff, King, Mallard, Parker, Robertson and their willing flunkies (Curran, Hipkins etc) continue to really FUBAR the Labour Party. But hey it’s all about them isn’t it.

      RIP major party status under DS unless he gets a personality transplant. The disaffected 1/3 will not show up without a reason to, move along people nothing to see here. Hoots is doing a fine job.
      • bad12 14.2.1

        30 January 2013 at 12:06 pm

        The current level of Labour Party support is fine with me and it leads directly to the Slippery lead National Government’s defeat in 2014 by the Opposition and your idol Slippery getting one in the back from His own Party whereupon He will tuck tail and scuttle off like a cockroach seeking shelter from bug-spray,

        What will you call for then, the return of Doctor Dullard Don Brash as leader, or ha ha ha perhaps you can envisage an ACT take-over of National where the all but brain dead John Banks is the leader,(if he aint languishing in a jail cell that is)…
15. Olwyn 15

    30 January 2013 at 10:19 am

    Nothing for the country but instead “some spoils of conquest for his mates.”

    If we look at just about all the recent posts and comments, including the endless debate about Shearer, they can all be understood in terms of the conditions affecting a conquered people. The “feral rich,” the loss of manufacturing, the decisions that lead to an ongoing loss of jobs, the housing bubble, the benefit cuts, the slave labour prisons, etc, etc etc.

    When this economic experiment was unleashed the claims were that business freed from restraint would thrive and create jobs, that businessmen have a direct interest in their affairs, hence state-run institutions would function better as businesses. Then, in the third way years, the idea was that the market economy would mature, and ultimately deliver a level of social justice. This has all proved false. The wealthy, free to do what they like with their own money, use the attendant power to gain even more wealth and more power, and to hell with the rest of us.

    In a way you cannot entirely blame governments for their capitulation. If you are Lichtenstein and the Germans are advancing, you save more lives by a quick surrender than by attempting to defeat a much larger enemy. At the same time, thinking of what is happening in terms of conquest gives us a measure as to how much use governments and aspiring governments are willing to make of what leeway they have on behalf of their people.

    Middle class right wingers with a string of rentals may scoff at what I am saying, since they have not been hard hit. But middle class people too are dependent on an ever-dwindling tax take to prop up such things as the value of their houses. Aspiring apparatchiks with degrees in politics and policy analysis are similarly dependent. And if you cannot afford to take a year off without going on the dole then you are not really among the elite, whatever airs you want to give yourself.
16. felixviper 16

    30 January 2013 at 11:06 am

    It’s good to see Gosman and King Kong so hard at work today.

    Someone must’ve criticised their god.
    • Gosman 16.1

      30 January 2013 at 11:10 am

      Just rarking up the natives on their favourite topic – How much they dislike the fact that John Key is PM and there is nothing they can do about it.

      It is similar to poking a stick in to a hornet nest but without the potential for personal harm occuring (other than certain lefties having a stroke).
      • felixviper 16.1.1

        30 January 2013 at 11:13 am

        Miserable fail in that case. No-one takes any of your frantic attempts at distraction as anything but.
      • bad12 16.1.2

        30 January 2013 at 12:01 pm

        Just naively scoring the own goals with every comment that takes you a step closer to the point which will see you given the kick back to the Blubber-boy sewer where you belong so that you can whine endlessly about how unfair your treatment here has been when by your own admission you come here just for shits and giggles with your stirring…
      • framu 16.1.3

        30 January 2013 at 12:36 pm

        well at least youve finally admitted that your not here to engage in good faith.

        weve always known you for a foolish time waster – its good youve seen the light on this at long last
    • Andre 16.2

      30 January 2013 at 11:18 am

      The neanderthal,s are biting back.
    • King Kong 16.3

      30 January 2013 at 11:19 am

      For me it is more along the lines of celebrating the fact that my “God” appears to have smited you.

      Even Zet, after attempting a rally from the depths of despair with this piece immediately turns the guns back on Shearer in his next. Utter fucking dissaray.
      • felixviper 16.3.1

        30 January 2013 at 11:22 am

        Yawn. You guys need some new schtick.
        • King Kong 16.3.1.1

          30 January 2013 at 11:27 am

          Coming from the home of endless;

          “beneficiaries deserve lots more money”

          and

          “gays are people too”

          I will politely decline your advice.
          • felixviper 16.3.1.1.1

            30 January 2013 at 11:32 am

            Think I’ll just leave that to stand on it’s own.
            • framu 16.3.1.1.1.1

              30 January 2013 at 12:33 pm

              can we get that one on record?

              “King Kong – considers gay people to be subhuman”

              coming from a monkey thats pretty priceless
      • Tim 16.3.2

        30 January 2013 at 3:46 pm

        Can I ask you another question KK? I’m not anxious to get into any debate with you (because I don’t see much point in pushing shit uphill) but I’m just wondering if you ever attended “Backbenchers” when it was going. ???
        There used to be this guy that regularly attended that obviously adhered to the idea that God made man in His own image – except that John Key was the God.
        • King Kong 16.3.2.1

          30 January 2013 at 4:49 pm

          Went once or twice certainly not regularly. You probably would have noticed me, tall, classically handsome and immaculately dressed.
          • fenderviper 16.3.2.1.1

            30 January 2013 at 9:46 pm

            Yeah I remember now, you were the guy with hands in pockets touching yourself all the while, much the same as you do here.
17. Scintilla 17

    30 January 2013 at 11:29 am

    At least we can rely on Winston to give JK a lashing!

    “The best part of the Prime Minister’s speech today was when he sat down. That was the very best part of that speech. The rest of it consisted of the same old, same old neo-liberal, free-market pixie dust. It sounded like he wrote it in the shower or in Antarctica or somewhere like that. The philosophy behind it goes something like this: first, flog off the country to overseas investors; second, create a currency speculator’s paradise; third, change the labour laws again to kick the workers in the guts; fourth, cut Government services; fifth, starve the regions; sixth, subsidise overseas businesses, like Warner Bros and ignore chances to keep New Zealand enterprises going back home; and, seventh, when in doubt build another motorway. New Zealanders’ great leaders were once people of vision. They did not spend their livings gazing into a computer screen. They did not spend their young lives betting against their country’s currency so they themselves could become wealthy. They surrounded themselves with like-minded individuals. They wanted to make life better for their people. Their vision was of an independent nation making its own way in the world, using its own New Zealand resources, with educated and skilled New Zealanders who could expect some sort of fulfilment and satisfaction, and they went on to create the greatest country on earth—all in the lifetime of some of us. ” http://tinyurl.com/a82ynn8
    • Andre 17.1

      30 January 2013 at 11:46 am

      Might find intresting…. Order paper 30th . DEBATE ON PRIME MINISTER’S STATEMENT
      Interrupted debate on the question, That this House express its confidence
      in the National-led Government and commend its programme for 2013 as
      set out in the Prime Minister’s Statement to Parliament (Rt Hon John
      Key) and the amendment proposed thereto.
      (Debate interrupted 29 January 2013)
      Amendment reads as follows:
      To delete all words after “Government” and to substitute “providing that
      Government delivers an unequivocal commitment to New Zealand
      children and to ensuring they can grow up to be great New Zealanders,
      and requires the John Key-led administration to present such a
      commitment to the House.” (Brendan Horan) ….
    • Colonial Weka 17.2

      30 January 2013 at 12:34 pm

      Winston Peters can go fuck himself. He has a major responsibility for the centre in NZ having shifted so far to the right, so he can’t complain now about the right fucking us all over. He may have a silver tongue but he is still a dumb, selfish, egotistical fuck.
      • kiwi_prometheus 17.2.1

        30 January 2013 at 8:57 pm

        I like him, he’s as scheming and cynical as any other polly but at least he lands some punches on some of those other jerks.

        Also he isn’t afraid to oppose the immigration flood – he might get my vote next time.
        • Scintilla 17.2.1.1

          30 January 2013 at 10:08 pm

          Winston also slipped in a little smear for Joyce over his mates-rates deal for media frequencies back when he became an Airwaves Overlord. Never lets a chance go by. Shearer could take a few lessons from the Old Dog.
18. Skinny 18

    30 January 2013 at 12:30 pm

    There is only one way to make a change and that’s to get involved. I’ve had a few years away from Labour ( since Goff took the leadership). So I guess it’s time too join the local area ( i moved city ) LEC and start organizing for the Election defeat of National. The party is much much more than the leader, and leaders come & go with the adequate membership numbers & desire to roll a leader. Until then I will focus on the party brand.

    I suggest some of you other consider doing the same, a bit of talk and do!
    • Afewknowthetruth 18.1

      30 January 2013 at 6:23 pm

      If voting made any difference the global elites would ban it.

      You get a pro-money-lender, pro-corporation government whichever [mainstream ] party you vote for.

      Yes, a few more breadcrumbs might fall off the elites table under Labour. Or not.
      • kiwi_prometheus 18.1.1

        30 January 2013 at 8:59 pm

        So you are anti democratic then? – probably fantasize about the “dictatorship of the proletariat’, right?
        • CV - Real Labour 18.1.1.1

          30 January 2013 at 9:30 pm

          I’m sorry, which part of the system was the democratic part again? Sometimes its mighty hard to recognise.
        • Afewknowthetruth 18.1.1.2

          30 January 2013 at 9:47 pm

          That is a ridiculous comment.

          Anyone with e brain knows I am pro-democracy: I am just against the faux democracy we have at the moment -a faux democracy in which bought-and-paid-for liars acquire positions in parliament via the corrupt media and advertising companies, with taxpayers money being spent on billboards that tell lies.
          • Robert Atack 18.1.1.2.1

            30 January 2013 at 10:24 pm

            Democracy might work if the brain dead masses actually voted with their grand children’s future in mind, instead of all the bullshit that is this suicidal system.
            But as we keep pointing out it is all academic deck chair shuffling.
            We’ve shot our load in an orgy of selfish consumption and idiotic growth, now we are just drowning in the wet patch.
19. xtasy 19

    30 January 2013 at 9:08 pm

    The biggest obstacle to getting rid of Key is:

    1. A biased, brainwashing, dumbing down mainstream – and in part even government run – media;
    2. a lack of awareness of the real challenges and problems ahead for the whole world, naturally also affecting little, “isolated” New Zealand, by the bulk of the brainwashed and not well informed populace;
    3. the fact that NZ is NOT UNITED, it is very divided, and a certain sector of the population does not give a damn about anyone and anything else, as long as they get what they think they must, above all else;
    4. a deficit or lack of awareness of the environmental catastrophy the whole human species and misdirected “civilisation” is heading to, simply, because little, still comparably “green”, quiet, and less populated NZ does not appear to show any signs of stress, pollution and other problems to most people. So the wrong perception is, we live on little, faraway, isolated islands, and what will affect the rest of the world will not hit us;
    5. an obsession by a large chunk of the middle class to try and copy an US dictated, outdated lifestyle of consumption and waste, that will never be sustainable for much longer;
    6. a total lack of skills and knowledge of the average NZer, who is mostly urbanised, motorised and artificially “pampered” from natural exposure, good or bad, to cope with any natural catastrophy that may hit.

    NZ and NZers are “drowning”, because of the above, AND because too many think, they need a John Key, to keep the ship afloat, to keep them going to have all the above lifestyle, and to allow them to ignore above and other challenges.

    The main problem is the mentality and ignorance of the bulk of NZ society, which only represents itself in having a Key run a rotten government, and a hopeless Shearer promise things he does not know how to deliver and does not even ensure, he can deliver.

    The main problem is in the BLOODY HEAD OF TOO MANY PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY, SADLY THE MAJORITY!
    • xtasy 19.1

      30 January 2013 at 9:23 pm

      Further to my comment:

      How do YOU change this?

      If you write a comment here, you may make a start.

      If you post something on a Facebook page, you may spread and share some messages amongst a selected few.

      If you write a comment on another blog a few hundred may read it.

      What difference does that make? Not much.

      The internet is valuable, but also limited. It leads to isolation amongst groups, individual bloggers and certain fad adherents.

      There is potential to share, but get real, it is not as large and huge as many like to claim. Most use the internet, but the internet and forums have become just another expression and representation of division and isolationism, yes also individualism, only limited “sharing”.

      So one must think and move further, contacts must be followed up with physical face to face contacts, with social organisation and meetings, with activities, with road and street actions, whatever kind.

      The main problem is we all sit at home after work, study or whatever, and share a few lines and comments here and there, but we do not make enough difference.

      There must be a rediscovery of social interaction in a physical, real world, there must be ORGANISATION, of people, real people, with body, face, sweat and no sweat, whatever, that is what is needed, and what is also lacking.

      So with all this talk about blogs, internet revolution and the likes, you are losing the way most of you behave. You make NO DIFFERENCE, as you are invisible, not organised, no solid united force, you just write many lines and bits of lines, abuse at times, recommendations and compliments at times, but hey, where does this take you. I see NO MOVEMENT of substance in NZ, just much pseudo talk and organisation and expression. The MSM do not even know how to behave and express themselves anymore, so they hide behind vague, non important, silly stories, that are low risk.

      Take action, confront, occupy, occupy, meet, debate, do overcome your isolation and over-individual approach, go to town, the city, meet in places, squares, pubs, clubs, whatever, but MEET and TAKE ACTION, as that only will change anything at all.
      • Polish Pride 19.1.1

        30 January 2013 at 9:39 pm

        I’d say have you stopped to consider that the system is designed the way it is for a reason – to keep people busy, tot give them the time to think., and if they find the time to think then certainly not enough time to action change and mobilize the apathetic masses.
        • xtasy 19.1.1.1

          30 January 2013 at 11:12 pm

          Polish Pride: STOP blaming the f**ing system!

          You apparently know what is rotten, so that knowledge holds you responsible and accountable also, to spread the truth, to wake the idiots up, and to take action.

          To simply blame the system is a cop-out, cowardly and useless talk.

          Take bloody action, no matter what, and how small, start the bloody revolution that is needed. It all starts in people’s heads, with ideas and action after that.

          No reason to blame anything and anyone, but all of you yourselves!!!
          • Polish Pride 19.1.1.1.1

            31 January 2013 at 7:13 am

            Unless you are educating people on the true problem ie. the system….. and the true problem that any system needs to solve meeting peoples needs and wants then you will unfortunately NEVER fix the problem.
            And don’t worry I am taking action and am trying to wake people up. I am not just bleating from the sidelines. I have actually sat down and figured out why things aren’t getting fixed regardless of whose in power. I have determined that the wrong problem is being focussed on and this is largely the reason why after many decades the big problems still exist and are getting worse in some cases.
            I have also figured out what the system should be doing and what actions are required to transition to a system that will work for everyone, where everyone will have more not less and we will be able to consume less scarce resources in doing so.
            I keep asking the question – do you really honestly believe that the left can will fix the problems once the get in. But know one is bold enough to answer. I am guessing that in all honesty they know that even if they get into power the problems will still exist.
            The reason is unfortunately like it or not because of the way the system is structured and the way people behave i response.
            Example at a very very simple level – when was the last time that a govt of any persuasion was in power for more than 3 terms. The fact is that you continue to have a swing to the left on policy and then a swing to the right.
            Can I make a suggestion – Forget the system for a moment. Forget politics. Just sit down and think about people. Think about the two things we ALL have in common – needs and wants. Now design a system that delivers these things.
            Q: did you come up with the system we have today?
            Did you even need money in your system? If yes, I’d be interested to know why..
            I have analysed this in depth. It is after all what I do for a living. I determine the true nature of any problem and help people develop solutions that solve those problems.
            Unless you truely understand the actual problem, you just aren’t ever going to solve anything. I’m sorry but you’re just not. You are simply looking in the wrong place.

            I am not simply blaming the system and I certainly do not see it as a cop out. To make real change happen people need to see why things are failing.It is not simply because National is in power as much as many would dearly love to believe this. I am trying to get people to understand why the system is failing us. It is only once more and more people wake up to this, that we will then be able to head towards a much better world.
            • xtasy 19.1.1.1.1.1

              31 January 2013 at 10:11 pm

              Thank you for elaborating on your earlier comment!
    • Afewknowthetruth 19.2

      30 January 2013 at 10:00 pm

      Agreed on most of that except the spelling of catastrophe.

      NZers live in a slave camp -actually very close to a concentration camp- in which they are told what to think by the corporate-controlled and state-controlled media.

      I remember vividly the NZ Herald publishing a piece of tosh written by the then US Ambassador saying that climate change was a myth; when I wrote an article presenting the real science and the truth about climate change the NZ Herald refused to publish it.

      When Direct Democracy was launched TVNZ sent a camera man. TVNZ decided not to broadcast because it was DD was not a party of bought-and-paid-for liars and [posed a threat to the various rorts TVNZ is involved in. so it goes on. I could give hundreds of examples of how the media manipulate the populace but there just isn’t time.

      If people have not worked out by now that they are constantly lied to there really is no hope for them.

      As I have said before, I now understand how 6 million Jews ended up in gas chambers.
      • Andre 19.2.1

        30 January 2013 at 11:03 pm

        Xtasy ,,,Perfect…
      • xtasy 19.2.2

        30 January 2013 at 11:22 pm

        You KNOW better, so your posts here are welcome by me, even if some have little patience with you.

        At least, although I do not fully share your very catastrophic views, you are aware of what is going on. It takes bloody action, a bloody wake up call, a rattle and shake, and more, to wake people up.

        Otherwise only the end catastrophy will wake them up.

        You are at times a bit of a doomsday prophet, but to me you do at least in part share what is at issue and a major concern.

        Sadly too many cling to emotional daydreams, hopes and vague whatever agendas, but do not quite realise how bloody serious our situation here is.

        I disagree with you, insofar, that I believe that there could be an answer and solution, but it will never be easy, comfy and sweet, like some think.

        At least I grew up on a humble farm, I know the very basics of life, life and death, of humans and animals, the need to grow, to look after crops and animals, naturally also humans, to nurture, to be one with nature, to respect nature, to learn the seasons, the crop circulation, the cycles of the moon, and much more. But sadly most live in cities, in apartments or climatised homes, thinking, it is all for the taking, and the supermarket shelf is the real life.

        Get a fucking real life, maybe go fruit picking or digging earth on a farm for a change, it would do a lot of city dwellers some real good. My belief is if there ever will be some socialist society, all must learn the basics, to learn how to do the most menial task, before they can judge on others, and become better ones, skilled higher.

        That is lost, and that is partly also, where society has failed. Never forget, you are all mortal, and you need food, water and air to survive, day in and out. Nothing more basic teaches you what life is about. And sharing is important, but it is not easy to force it, better force people to learn, to learn to fish, rather than to just feed them through. Despite of that line, I absolutely expect a fair and decent welfare state, which I fear, not even Labour would ensure now.
20. vto 20

    30 January 2013 at 11:14 pm

    It might be easier if we just slowed down, like tortoises and turtles.

Links to post

1. Opposition speeches & ‘Roads of Madness’ « The Standard: posted on 30 January 2013 at 12:17 pm

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