Barbaric Death Cult or friend and ally?

Written By: - Date published: 8:00 am, January 4th, 2016 - 49 comments
Categories: International, iraq, Syria, war - Tags: ,

Barbaric death cult ISIS Saudi Arabia

49 comments on “Barbaric Death Cult or friend and ally?”

  1. D'Esterre 1

    To misquote FD Roosevelt, they may be sons of bitches, but they’re our sons of bitches. Realpolitik at work. (Correction)

  2. amy 3

    Saudi Arabia is without doubt a very primitive society (socially). In so many ways. Sadly, most Muslim countries I have visited, worked in or have learned about are also.

    In Saudi Arabia case, it unlikely to survive many more decades. Good I think although the process of change will be as bad as all the other Middle Eastern countries whose people struggle to enter the 21st century whilst still having political, social and belief systems that were never allowed to develop to the needs of the modern world. And this contributor is so original, just repeating the cartoon that Iran released today, in a slightly different form. Good original critique!

    However, to compare SA to Isis is ridiculous. Isis belief system is based around slavery, rape as a tool of control, the putting to death in the most barbaric ways any who do not follow their strict interpretation of Islam, total control of the people within its control area.

    And as usual, someone has to point to US use of death penalty (Weka). Is a debate on this forum actually possible without the juvenile hate speech against the US? The death penalty is common in many of NZ allies and trading partners (USA, Malaysia, Indonesia, Japan, China), but always the USA mentioned. The most executions in the world are easily in China, both in absolute terms and per capita. But we do not even know how many, due to secrecy by government. Yet always the little boys on here comment on US. I think maybe grow up, open eyes and get a life would maybe be in order.

    • weka 3.1

      I’m not a little boy, and I think the more pertinent question is why I can’t make a fairly obvious point about the politics of NZ and its allies without that point being mislabelled juvenile hate speech. Sidestepping the ad hominem, it’s not about hating on America. I’m happy to criticise China too where that’s appropriate too, but I just don’t see the same connections between NZ and China and the Middle East as I do between NZ, the US and the Middle East. That is so obvious I can’t believe I’m having to point it out. You know, the US’s meddling with the Middle East while pretending to be great and still at home behaving like barbarians. At least China aren’t hypocrites.

      • amy 3.1.1

        Your ignorance with the comment that ‘at least China aren’t hypocrites ‘ is staggering.

        If you think China not hypocrites, then you are ignorant of the reality of China. China is an empire, like the old Soviet Union. The bulk of its land mass is the result of what you would probably label as imperialism: particularly Xinjiang, Mongolia and Xizang (tibet). Also many other areas. These areas are raped for their resources and the people denied any meaningful freedom, particularly religious freedom. They are treated badly, in many areas with extreme violence.

        This is why Islamic (and other) terrorism is becoming increasingly common within the borders of China. The things that you say about USA involvement in ME applie totally to China but within its own borders.

        And the USA has meddled badly in Middle East, no doubt. Problems there date back long before US involvement though. Even before French and Great Britain involvement. But they have done more good than harm. Even invasion of Iraq brought freedom for the majority of the population. Kurds particularly, and Shiites also. Many bad results, but still for greater number of people more good. And Libya, the problems there again are not of the USA making, but Italy and more recently Great Britain and France (and yes, I do realise that Libya is not the ME).

        A little learning is a dangerous thing, particular coupled with a lack of direct experience (this is obvious from your comments on China).

        • weka 3.1.1.1

          Yeah I thought you might say that. Let me put it another way then. NZ is hypocritical when it comes to the US but not China. We have no problem calling China backward for its human rights, but we shy away from calling the US barbaric. Why is that?

          “The things that you say about USA involvement in ME applie totally to China but within its own borders.”

          Sure, but my point was about the perspective from here in NZ, not some comment about the relative badness comparing the US and China. Not sure if you yet understand my point.

          I can post a link to a Chinese execution suite and make another point, which would be complementary to the original one rather than negating it.

          “And the USA has meddled badly in Middle East, no doubt. Problems there date back long before US involvement though.”

          Of course. But again, that doesn’t really relate to my point.

          I always appreciate your posts about China, you don’t need to hammer the ‘you’re stupid’ message so much.

          • amy 3.1.1.1.1

            I apologize sincerely! I always also enjoy reading your posts but not always agree. But that is good I think, as how else can we ever learn if not by being challenged?. I withdraw my comments of ‘little boy’.

            I think sometimes my written language may seem a little harsh although that not intentional.

            • weka 3.1.1.1.1.1

              Thanks amy. It’s easy to do on ts, given the nature of the place. Plus let’s face, most of us here are pretty ignorant about China.

          • alwyn 3.1.1.1.2

            My, my aren’t you touchy today Weka.
            Anyone would think she had said something that wasn’t true about you. Seems pretty accurate to me.

        • Keith 3.1.1.2

          Wow Amy, patronising !!!

          The US and UK overthrow a democratically elected Iranian government in the 1950’s who had the audacity to want more control over their sovereign oil revenues and we got the Shah’s dictatorship.

          And along the way in all the self serving interference the US FUNDED Saddam to go to war with Iran after the Shah was eventually overthrown with mega bloodshed and suffering that accompanied that and shortly thereafter went to war with the equally undemocratic Kuwait, only for the US to invade Iraq twice, the second time on the most specious of reasons, Weapons of Mass Destruction, that didn’t exist.

          Throw in western takeovers and manipulation dating back to at least WW1 and bingo we have the clusterfuck we have today.

          Things may not have been kapai under the Ottoman Empire but they are as sure as shit, worse now. To say more good than harm has been done is fucking laughable, if it wasn’t so bloody and so tragic!

        • Reddelusion 3.1.1.3

          Excellent points Amy

          Comparing SA and ISIs is ridiculous unless you are just trying (as the left always do) to take an exception to justify a predetermined narrative, unless of course the exception does not suit thier narrative

          If you cut through the bs the objective reality is that Isis is a Death cult, with two global objectives, covert the world to fundamental Islam and kill any objectors, that’s it, I don’t really see any connection here between SA and ISIS barring let’s have a crack at the U.S.

          I don’t know why all hard lefties just don’t jump on modem day time machines ( airplanes)!and go live in countries outside of the western alliance, are pre industrialised and are devoid of democracy since they pine so much for such an existence

        • Et Tu Brute 3.1.1.4

          Well they’re not hypocrites in the sense that they don’t care. They’re not preaching to the world, everything is someone else’s ‘internal problem’ and when it comes to the death penalty China is fully behind it (and does it with a gusto). Hypocrisy is preaching one thing and doing another. China rarely preaches but when it does there is no conflict with its actions.

          • reddelusion 3.1.1.4.1

            Agree, the hypocrites are the so called progressive who ignore any transgression that don’t fit thier deluded narrative but over egg anything that does

          • Reddelusion 3.1.1.4.2

            Agree China are not hypocrite the so called progressives who simply over egg, extrapolate exceptions, outliers etc to suit thier deluded narrative and ignore anything that does not are the hypocrites

            • Paul 3.1.1.4.2.1

              Name calling again…
              Very predictable

            • Et Tu Brute 3.1.1.4.2.2

              No. That is sophistry, propaganda or just bad arguments. Hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing another. It is way overused as a word. Much like terrorism it has a meaning but people don’t seem to like using it for that meaning.

              • Reddelusion

                I agree, hypocrite is the wrong word, progressive sophistry is probably more appropriate, maybe intellectually dishonest also could be used

                • Et Tu Brute

                  I’m still not so sure, though a little unsettled by it.

                  It is not hypocrisy to point out the ‘sins’ of the US while ignoring China’s and Russia’s. For most liberals the US and conservative (in the western sense) movements are the ‘enemy’. Therefore the US and conservative movements become the target, especially since in the eyes of right-wingers the United States and its allies can do no wrong.

                  The ‘sins’ of China and Russia however are widely understood and accepted. They are ‘common enemies’ for want of a better term.

                  Now that is on the most part. Sure, there are people so blinded with hatred toward the US and intellectually deluded in the process that they think Russia and/or China are saints. But it can be hard to sort these people out from the moderates because neither group really takes aim at Russia or China. They are irrelevant to the discussion.

                  So is it hypocrisy or just a myopia? Or is it just they are deemed irrelevant? All three are possible in any context so not always helpful to jump to just the one conclusion.

                  • Reddelusion

                    Fair comment,

                  • Reddelusion

                    One other point many right wingers would argue that Obama administration is anything but right wing

                    For all the USA sins, thank god they are there, the world would be a very different place for us in the west if led by China or Russia or between China and Russia

    • Draco T Bastard 3.2

      In Saudi Arabia case, it unlikely to survive many more decades.

      The collapse of Saudi Arabia is inevitable

      Like many countries in the region before it, Saudi Arabia is on the brink of a perfect storm of interconnected challenges that, if history is anything to judge by, will be the monarchy’s undoing well within the next decade.

      Dictatorships really only work for a short time before they collapse. As populations continue to rise and resource use far exceeds any sort of sustainable rate that short time is getting shorter.

    • Ch-ch Chiquita 3.3

      The only difference between Saudi Arabia and ISIS is that one already have a state and the other one is looking to establish it.

  3. It’s good that the cartoonist has both executions being carried out in front of flags with the shahada on them. Handy reminder of which ideology is responsible for this stuff.

  4. Agora 5

    Shahada (also spelled “Shahadah”) is the Islamic Creed, one of the Five Pillars of Islam
    http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2012/10/what-is-shahada.html

    I thought I would post what I thought was an original idea but found that Iranians and The Standard have beaten me to it. The zeitgeist is changing.

  5. Ralf Crown 6

    New Zealand media must stop repeating US propaganda.

  6. Ad 7

    We don’t decide where our petrol comes from. It’s traded freely. Refined freely.

    I would however object to a Free Trade Agreement with them. SA government is far too anti-women to be worth trading with directly. None of my family will ever visit that country.

    • Andre 7.1

      Unless you’re a Muslim going for the hajj, Saudi Arabia really doesn’t want you visiting. You and your family would be very unlikely to get a tourist visa, which are only issued for very special purposes. Their attitude of “don’t even think about coming to visit” is reason enough to not want a trade agreement, let alone their much bigger barbarity issues.

    • GregJ 7.2

      Lived next door to Saudi for 5 years – have never been and have no interest in going. Have had some interesting discussions with Saudis visiting here though – like everything there is a range of feeling and views on life, politics and even religion.

  7. One Two 8

    The USA has a primary role in supporting the existence of SA and IS

    Argument can be made for their creation

  8. vto 9

    Hang on… if the world’s biggest countries like the US, China, Japan, Saudi Arabia and on and on all think it ok to kill criminals then why don’t we?

    NZ should bring back the death penalty.

    We are only a small nation but maybe bringing back the death penalty might highlight these intentional killings.

  9. Stuart Munro 10

    Actually, Saudi and ISIS are quite different.

    Perhaps you remember the Jordanian pilot who was burned alive? ISIS did so to dramatise their cause. Saudi for the most part avoids such actions.

    Saudi, a bit like Iraq used to be, is dependent on a collection of local loyalties that are ultimately more tribal or feudal than statist.

    Also, one consequence of a monarchial government is that its capacity to act or change quickly is appreciable. But the new king seems to be less temperate than his predecessor, and there is some possibility the state will become ungovernable or dissolve.

    If it does dissolve, violence will probably increase by a couple of orders of magnitude. Benign governance of the holy sites, never mind the oil, is critical to peace in the region.

  10. joe90 11

    Barbaric Death Cult or friend and ally?

    Any friend of yours is a friend of mine.
    /

    Obama traveled to the kingdom earlier this year to offer his condolences on the passing of King Abdullah and to meet with the new ruler, King Salman. Again, human rights were never mentioned. Instead, U.S. National Security Adviser Susan Rice tweeted that Abdullah was a “close and valued friend of the United States.”

    […]

    Despite its appalling human rights record, Saudi Arabia was awarded a seat on the U.N. Human Rights Council last year and this summer was selected to oversee an influential committee within the council that appoints officials to report on country-specific and thematic human rights challenges. Unsurprisingly, Saudi Arabia has used its newfound power to thwart an international inquiry into allegations that it committed war crimes in Yemen.

    https://theintercept.com/2015/12/18/heres-the-al-jazeera-article-on-saudi-arabia-you-cant-read-outside-the-u-s/

  11. johnm 12

    The Warshington Neocons ( Who follow the Wolfowitz doctrine of World full spectrum dominance and hegemony have destroyed independent governments in the ME except so far Iran and embattled Syria ) are successful so far in destroying 5/7 Middle Eastern nations: Re General Petraeus. ISIS is a creation of Warshington, London and Paris and the Anglo-Israel alliance. ISIS are proxy agents used to overthrow Assad and armed by Warshington along with others. They just got out of control- never mind eh!?

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