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Brownlee: Bulldoze road through Fiordland

Written By: - Date published: 10:56 am, January 14th, 2010 - 88 comments
Categories: Conservation, heritage - Tags:

What a start to the new year.

photo from tramper.co.nz

Gerry Brownlee has admitted he’s pushing for a road to be built through our most pristine National Park, Fiordland. The Southland Times reports:

A long-mooted proposal for a road through pristine forest between Haast and the Hollyford Valley is again being considered by the Government.

Economic Development Minister Gerry Brownlee confirmed the project was “under consideration” and has asked for more analysis after raising the subject with Cabinet colleagues.

Putting a road through the Hollyford Valley will destroy some of our most spectacular scenery and one of the most special places in the country. The fact the National Government may destroy such a beautiful spot brings a tear to my eye.

I think Mr Brownlee may underestimate how millions of Kiwis will feel about a road being bulldozed through one of their most precious spots. Kiwis won’t let their country be destroyed without a fight.

And what does Minister of Tourism John Key have to say about this?

88 comments on “Brownlee: Bulldoze road through Fiordland”

  1. IrishBill 1

    Oh for f*ck’s sake.

  2. Quay 2

    From Crusher Collins to Bulldozer Brownlee.

  3. BLiP 3

    Great spot for a 100% Pure McDonalds.

    • felix 3.1

      Thanks National Ltd ™ etc.

      • burt 3.1.1

        felix

        Watch some of the clips from the http://www.hollyford.com

        “A crossing of Fiordlands longest swing bridge is a great way to burn off a cooked or continental breakfast.”

        oh year, that’s wilderness – It’s already Fiordland ltd. ™

        • NickS 3.1.1.1

          Thing is, gravel tracks and swing bridges have far less environmental impact in comparison to a two lane, asphalt road and accompanying extensive earth works for bridge supports. Partly due to the fact that tree-cover remains intact.

          Heck, swing bridges are rather common DoC tracks, and provide access when rivers are high, or where cutting an access track into and out of a water-way is problematic

          • felix 3.1.1.1.1

            No Nick you don’t understand. In burt’s world a grain of sand is exactly the same as a beach and a blade of grass as a forest.

            • NickS 3.1.1.1.1.1

              Heh.

              That’s a much nicer why of putting it than what I was thinking 😛

              Oh yeah, running with burt’s use of wilderness and “real” tramping, under burt’s thinking it’s thus rather wrong to use tracks with track markers, or ones which have been cut, or any track with bridges. And forget using DoC huts etc, let alone any provided toilets, instead one should go into teh bush with naught but a map, compass and a pack, because anything more is fake.

              Irrespective of personal finances, (good gear isn’t cheap), fitness*, experience and bushcraft skills.

              *Yes, I’m on the fat side and I use yuppie-sticks (shin-splint prevention), on the other hand though I don’t blink an eye-lid at 5-10hr walks on the hills, even on a couple of hours of sleep.

            • burt 3.1.1.1.1.2

              So it has been developed just enough for you then, phew here was me thinking that once it was developed at all it was only a question of how much – but now I know that even though it’s already wide enough for a quad bike it’s just right now today and as it always should be forever.

              • felix

                I thought the point I was alluding to was a very simple one, burt; that in my opinion the less it’s “developed” the better.

  4. roger nome 4

    has this spongy bohemeth even walked the hollyford track before deciding that he’s going to put a bulldozer through it? if this goes ahead it’s going to put a huge dent in National’s popularity. but to be honest, i’d rather see this beautiful area kept the way it is than that.

  5. Armchair Critic 5

    Let’s hope the B/C is not higher than 0.6, and Steve Joyce does not designate it as a Road of National Significance.

  6. RedLogix 6

    Frack.

    I will go feral over this.

  7. Tigger 7

    Key is ‘relaxed’ until he gets more focus group research on how he should react.

    • Crash Cart 7.1

      I heard that Brownlee sold it to him on the premise that it will be a “relaxing drive through what use to be the most beautiful part of NZ”.

  8. roger nome 8

    this would be a way huger deal than happy valley. the profile of fiordland is much larger, and there’s a lot of rich people that live out that way. when the protest movement involves vast numbers of “middle NZ” that’s when you know it’s politically significant.

  9. Bill 9

    Ever had a good look at the tourists coming through NZ? I mean the monied ones, not the back packers. A lot of them are old, not too fit. They want escalators where slopes and steps used to suffice. And the customer is always right and in tourism, is to be catered to, both figuratively and literally.

    Anyway, since the object of tourism is to part the tourist from their cash and as the Southland Times reports…”Given the Government and Prime Minister’s view on access to conservation land, there was never a better opportunity to gain political support, she (Westland District Council Mayor Maureen Pugh) said”

    but this is my favourite

    “Mr Hagaman said building the road would create the eighth wonder of the world…”

    A strip of fucking tarmac. Eighth wonder of the world. The imagination of some people is way beyond me.

    • Tigger 9.1

      That is classic! Talk about killing the golden goose.

    • roger nome 9.2

      have you ever walke the hollyford track bill? lots of oldies do it, it’s not that hard.

      p.s. i’ve decided to stop using capitals at the start of sentances. there’s no logical reason, it’s just an arcane waist of time imo. join me in the revolution!

      • felix 9.2.1

        You’ve stopped using them at the start of proper nouns too. How far down this slippery slope do you intend going?

      • DavidW 9.2.2

        waist of time ?? Yeah I get tight on the clock too but that is playing a little too fast and loose with a beautiful language.

        • snoozer 9.2.2.1

          haven’t heard it called beautiful before.

          flexible, adaptive, easy to learn the basics – impossible to learn all the difficult bits, a true modern language with scant regard for its own rules, a linguistic expression of the best and worst of the anglo meta-culture. It’s all those things but beautiful, sadly no.

      • ConorJoe 9.2.3

        ‘sentances’ Mr Nome? Give up on spelling as well ay?

      • lprent 9.2.4

        Just so long as you don’t decide to start SHOUTING, I couldn’t care less.

        However you should really do something about the spelling.

      • Bill 9.2.5

        Ever walked back up the path from the [ insert tourist attraction] to the bus? Lots of tourist oldies do it. And lots of not so oldie tourists just simply cant. They get carted.

  10. richard 10

    Hagaman should concentrate on tidying up some of his craphole hotels and staff accommodation in places like Franz Josef. Talk about a blot on the landscape!
    People have been bleating on about building this road this for years, but I have never heard one tourist ask for it. They seem to like NZ the way it is, and see the West Coast and Fiordland as the true wilderness of NZ – the very thing they have come to see.

  11. Bored 11

    Cant he just reduce it to a cycleway? I believe there is budget for this and it will create lots of jobs. And Jonkey says it is real…now imagine that the dead end on the Waikato stretch joined the Hollyford…….

    • Bored 11.1

      B*****r, I forgot, cycleways are unfriendly to large mineral moving machinery and mining equipment.

    • burt 11.2

      Add in a cycleway, hell yes,. There should be hundreds of kilometers of sweet single track in there as well as the mupped 4WD size gravel roads required so everyone can have a go. Varying length sections of medium to difficult grade single track linked up with swanky bars with outdoor spa pools serving excellent food. Back packers with comfortable affordable rooms and bike mechanics on site for overnight repairs. Keep the bikers and the walkers apart and all is good, just don’t add a road – that’s too much.

      • felix 11.2.1

        Translation:
        If you don’t want this road through Fiordland you’re a hypocrite because burt knows that what you really want is swanky bars with outdoor spa pools all over Fiordland.

      • Bored 11.2.2

        Hi Burt, I hate biking in rain and sandflies….quite happy to terminate the cycleway at Tuatapere. Methinks the roads will do for cycleways s soon as oil prices rocket.
        More seriously road = mining, Thats the danger. I like the area pristine and trackless best.

      • burt 11.2.3

        felix

        Translation 2: Only NickS is allowed to say how it should be and how it is now is perfect and how it should be forever.

        This has however proven my point, NickS says it is great with gravel tracks and guides and with no need to carry your own gear around. (IE: developed a long way from the wilderness experience) but when I say I would like it developed for biking – Oh no… that will never do.

        I started saying;” In my opinion it’s already ruined from a wilderness perspective, now we are just arguing over who decides what more we do with it. “

        So If NickS can have his 2m wide gravel walking tracks why can’t I have bike tracks and bars ?

  12. randal 12

    according to all reliable evidence neanderthals dissappeared 60,000 years ago.
    it appears that one strain of that species has survived. admixed with a generous helping of philistinism.

  13. randal 13

    have they sold the rights to the hot dog stand yet?

  14. Draco T Bastard (mobile) 14

    National: Destroying NZ’s 100% Pure Brand one conservation estate at a time.

  15. Pascal's bookie 15

    No Nactional apologists in this thread yet.

    This week the regulars have been able to craft apologia for whalers, war crimes, breaking suppression orders put in place to protect kids, and dodgy arrests.

    Funny.

    • fizzleplug 15.1

      Ask, and ye shall receive.

      Oh wait, not an apologist, just someone with a mainly differing point of view (although not in this case – I enjoy the wilds). Of course, if anyone thinks this will eventuate, you need to have your head examined a little for paranoia and delusion. After all, when was the last time this government followed through on anything???

      • Jim McDonald 15.1.1

        just wondering if this is another one of this Government’s favourite classic trademark distractions and fillers they regularly toss up to fill the media and provide some semblance of working (!?)

      • Murray 15.1.2

        fizzleplug: you should know by now that paranoia and delusion are the norm for the labour left

        • Pascal's bookie 15.1.2.1

          Did you know that the ETS is part of a secret global Commun1st plan for One World Government? It’s true. Store water and buy guns. Become a Sovereign Citizen today and protect our children’s freedom. BEFORE IT”S TOO LATE.

  16. Nick 16

    The fact the National Government may destroy such a beautiful spot brings a tear to my eye.

    *Provides a tissue*.

  17. Benjamin B. 17

    Is it just me or does this scream ‘mining’ between the lines?

    • Tigger 17.1

      Well roads do make it easier to get big mining equipment and personnel to all those goodies lying under the pristine landscape. And if you’re roading the area why not dig a little deeper before laying the asphalt…

    • burt 17.2

      Wind farms & hydro dams. That’s what the roads are for.

  18. NickS 18

    Evidently Gerry’s also forgotten what else building roads through undisturbed wilderness is good for, namely acting as plant pest high-ways, and introducing edge-effects which can alter forest micro-climates for kilometres either side. Causing disturbances which can allow for invasive plant and insect species to establish, but also alter local insect ecologies….

    And all for mineral resources, wait I mean “tourists” that for teh cost of building a road through rather troublesome terrain will probably exceed the income.

    National, failing to understand cost/benefit ratio’s since 2008 by ignoring inconvenient parts of the costs.

  19. A quick google Red Hill- mining and you get a better understanding of what Gerry fat gut Brownlee is up to. A Dunedin co, Ophir Mining Ltd have been granted a license for the Red Hills area. Years ago they mined “Blue asbestos” (i think) from their. I am not a 100% sure on it’s exact location but it is up some were inland around around the Lake Alabaster area.
    I,m not sure if this is the exact location of the gold mining license but would be a good reason why big Gerry is looking at a road into the Holyford Vally.

    • Peter Wilson 19.1

      The Red Hills were prospected extensively in the 1960s and 1970s by Kennicott Ltd from the US. They even bulldozed a road down the coast and up the Pyke Valley and built a base in the Upper Pyke Valley. The last of this was removed a few years ago, although there are still a few rusting bulldozers around.

      The asbestos deposit was actually in the Little Red Hills (just south), but it was found to be uneconomic.

  20. Benjamin B: screams mining!

  21. Chris 21

    Well. Guess Brown-‘coalismymiddlename’-lee doesn’t care much about tourism, NZ’s overseas image or those nasty creatures that live in the bush, or trees. Not surprising.

    However, Earl Hagaman’s support and instigation of the project needs to be highlighted and thanks to capitalism, you can. Boycott Senic Hotels.

    Write to Scenic Hotels explaining your opposition to the road and that you’ll stay elsewhere, tell all your mates overseas about this nonsensically criminal idea and Scenic Hotel’s involvement in it. Set up a FB group.

    Capitalism is both a curse and a blessing, so work it to your advantage!

    • Write to Scenic Hotels explaining your opposition to the road and that you’ll stay elsewhere, tell all your mates overseas about this nonsensically criminal idea and Scenic Hotel’s involvement in it. Set up a FB group.

      Sounds like a good idea. I wonder how many torists they’ll get if there are people outside their hotels waving signs calling them on their support for environmental vandalism?

    • burt 21.2

      Hey I know, get loads of people in the Hollyford valley with megaphones protesting that the area should be kept as a wilderness area. Start with making the place unbearable for the people on guided walks because they are already supporting capitalism benefiting from the exploitation of natural resources.

  22. It wont happen, Brownlee woyuldn’t be that stupid.

  23. Chris 23

    But then again, he’s not that bright.

    A worrisome combination. Drunk on power and not that bright. Mind, he’s had plenty of role models to follow.

  24. this is what brownlee said the other day

    “The Minister of Conservation and I have, therefore, asked officials to review areas listed on schedule four with a view to adding some conservation areas that should be closed to the possibility of mining access, except underground mining that does not disturb the land surface.”

    pretty big ‘except’ there and if he spins this ‘underground mining that does not disturb the land surface’ bullshit line then he can say “well the road is nothing to do with the mining so who gives a fuck about the land surface disturbance… “

  25. burt 25

    I’m torn on this issue actually. Mining as well. If every generation decided to draw a line in the sand and protect all undeveloped areas then we would still be living in a band about 1k from the beach in NZ.

    I’ve tramped through a lot of NZ wilderness over many years and I’ve seen many areas developed immeasurably since I first started visiting them. When I was young we said the introduction of graveled tracks would be the ruin of tramping in NZ. We moaned that walking track “Highways” that you could ride a bike down would invade the national & forest parks and “real tramping” areas would get smaller and smaller. As was obvious this has largely occurred and now we market our country on “great walks” and “guided wilderness” where people don’t even carry their own kit from palatial hut to palatial hut.

    Great that it has increased tourism numbers and great that it is a healthy thing to be doing but it’s not wilderness is it.

    I would rather it wasn’t mined, I would rather it wasn’t developed, but I’d also rather it didn’t have large numbers of guided muppets being coddled along on gravel tracks as well. In my opinion it’s already ruined from a wilderness perspective, now we are just arguing over who decides what more we do with it.

    • Clarke 25.1

      Well …. I’m not sure I agree with your slightly nihilistic view, burt, but having walked quite a few of the major tracks I can certainly appreciate the sentiment. And you make the point very eloquently.

  26. Highways, lay-bys, petrol stations, restrooms, rubbish bins, gravel depots, emergency phones, motels, airstrips, cribs, bars, restaurants, police stations, councils, ratepayers, government bureaucracies and services, just go ahead and build an exclusive resort town there.
    Call it Mitre Peak.
    Is this how Aspen came about?
    Oh, no, they just want to mine there.
    This government. What a perfect way to kick off a year of discontent and disillusionment with their wise and adoring public.

  27. Sanctuary 27

    Jesus, has someone told Gerry Brownlee that we’ve got Unobtainium in our National Parks?

  28. Jim McDonald 28

    That’s daft !

  29. jcuknz 29

    Firstly …”destroy some of our most spectacular scenery and one of the most special places in the country” is a load of rubbish.
    It is economically [ not ecconomically please note, though it is] justified with the reduced travel time and waste of fuel with dozens of buses plus cars travelling the round route from Queenstown to Milford.and back every day.
    If you want trees covering the road, such as frequently on the road to Milford one could organise the road as a pair of single lane highways with sensible passing loops in areas where trees will not grow big enough. Also one could lower the road into the ground so that vehicles are not obvious to the eye, with their sound suppressed when foliage can’t do that.
    .
    It is so nice the selfishness of the younger fit members of our community trying to preserve these wilderness areas against the common sense of ecconomics and economics. Depriving the world of the chance to see these places in the limited time frame most tourists have.

  30. Clarke 30

    It is economically [ not ecconomically please note, though it is] justified with the reduced travel time and waste of fuel with dozens of buses plus cars travelling the round route from Queenstown to Milford.and back every day.

    Thanks for that incoherent bunch of nonsense, but I call bullshit. Care to provide a link to the NZ Transport Agency study that demonstrates a positive benefit/cost ratio for this proposed monument to Brownlee’s stupidity? No? Could it be that no such study exists?

    It is so nice the selfishness of the younger fit members of our community trying to preserve these wilderness areas against the common sense of ecconomics and economics.

    It’s so nice that the older generation show up for these discussions and demonstrate their complete ignorance of both traditional economics and the environmental impact of their 1960s-era proposals. If an unnecessary road through a UN World Heritage Area is your idea of “common” sense, then you’re welcome to it, grandad.

    • Macro 30.1

      “It’s so nice that the older generation show up for these discussions and demonstrate their complete ignorance of both traditional economics and the environmental impact of their 1960s-era proposals. If an unnecessary road through a UN World Heritage Area is your idea of “common’ sense, then you’re welcome to it, grandad.”
      Hey! I’m a grandad!
      Ageism is apparently alive and well, and living on “the standard.”
      So none of your cheek sonny!

      • Clarke 30.1.1

        So none of your cheek sonny!

        Awww! But grandad – he started it! (Runs off sniveling ….)

    • jcuknz 30.2

      I don’t need any NZTA survey to let me appreciate common sense and a personal knowledge of the roads involved. It is stupid to go two sides of a triangle when there is a positble hypotenuse route. Beauty anyway is in the eye of the beholder and a carefully and thoughtfully crafted road, built with consideration for the environment, can be as beautiful as a rose or anything else of beauty. The trouble with these greeny extremists, one step away from being terrorists, is that they think in terms of black and white, yes and no, without sensible compromise. I wonder who were the fools who made it a heritage park before the neccessary road was built? It is nice but selfish for only the fit and healthy can enjoy such places … and the fly fishermen running their business and disturb the place with helicopters … the anti stance smells mildly I think.

      • Clarke 30.2.1

        I don’t need any NZTA survey to let me appreciate common sense and a personal knowledge of the roads involved.

        Translation: I’m not going to let facts get in the way of my biases, and wish to become a Fox News commentator when I grow up.

        A carefully and thoughtfully crafted road, built with consideration for the environment, can be as beautiful as a rose or anything else of beauty.

        Gets my vote as Troll Of The Week.

  31. Jewish Kiwi 31

    @jcuknz

    “…one step away from being terrorists”

    Can you elaborate on which step that is?

    If you don’t, everyone will assume you have no idea what terrorism is.

    I’m just curious to know, so I can better understand terrorism and its causes.

  32. jcuknz 32

    Die hard extremists are one small step away from being terrorists. A recent NZ example was the destruction of the church billboard in Auckland. People convinced of their cause believe they have the justification to do all sorts of things … like making a noise outside tennis matches, the list is endless. Spreading nails on motorways ….

    Any NZTA survey report is the opinion of someone or a group, just as my opinion, both are valid expressions of opinion based on facts as I/they see it as indeed are yours. If we want to progress our nation one needs to balance the preservation against common sense development.

    It cannot be a yes/no situation but needs to be a sensible compromise.

    It seems to me that most people here simply say no as a matter of principle without really considering the facts. Principles are good until they lead you down a false path. This applies to both the proposed road and surveys of mineral deposits. As I’ve said previously it makes good sense to know what you have tucked away in the piggy bank.

    I have no desire to be a Fox commentator when I grow up, I am a grown up and thinking person, obviously with views different to yourself on this subject and I don’t wish to engage in a slanging match … go to Kiwiblog et al to do that.

    • Draco T Bastard (mobile) 32.1

      Ah, glad you cleared that up. After decades of,wrongly, believing that democracy was a Good Thing it’s a shock to discover that it’s actually TERRORISM.

      • Pascal's bookie 32.1.1

        the terrorists hate us for our freedoms,
        people hate what they fear,
        we must eliminate their hate.

    • Clarke 32.2

      If you’re happy to call people who are opposed to running a road through a World Heritage Area “terrorists”, then I guess you’d also be happy if they characterised your position as an “environmental rapist”. After all, if you’re going to use emotive (and inaccurate and highly offensive) language, it should run in both directions.

      If we want to progress our nation one needs to balance the preservation against common sense development.

      You keep coming back to this idea that your position is “common sense”, yet even the most cursory examination of the comments in this thread indicates that your pro-roading stance certainly isn’t “common” – in fact, you seem to be the sole person who thinks Brownlee’s road is a good idea.

      And as for the idea that it’s “sense”, I note that you haven’t produced a single scrap of evidence that this road has any economic justification, probably because no such evidence exists. You’re perfectly entitled to have an opinion about the project, but given that people have opinions that they’ve been abducted by space aliens and that Elvis lives in Vegas, that’s not saying much.

    • logie97 32.3

      jcuknz – is it extremist to say pause one moment?

      Planet Earth has gone through catastrophic change since the Industrial Revolution but more particularly in the 20th century. Man has altered the world beyond recognition is his demand for its resources.

      New Zealand was largely bush clad and the waters would have teamed with marine-life. It would be fair to say that man lived reasonably at one with nature (basically because he did not have the means to exploit it).

      What has taken billions of years to evolve has in part been changed in less than 200 years.

      One of the “riches” of the earth is gold. Now I know that there are a myriad of uses for the mineral but for most of it to be turned into ingots and stored in bank vaults does not seem to me to be a reasonable justification for destroying tracts of land.

      You and I and Gerry can only expect to be here for three score years and ten.

  33. Pascal's bookie 33

    “I don’t wish to engage in a slanging match”

    Then stop saying people are extremists only and only one small step away from being terrorists if they oppose this particular road.

  34. Peter Wilson 34

    Yeah, this is thoroughly shocking, but also predictable. The Haast – Hollyford road idea gets wheeled out quite frequently (as does the Karamea – Collingwood road idea, which generally gets less coverage because it isn’t Fiordland). It is a crazy proposal in an area long known for crazy proposals and pipe dreams. A lost ruby mine, a sea boot full of gold, and more recently, a monorail, a gondola project, two tunnels, a floating bridge across Lake Wakatipu, and a road up the Greenstone Valley.

    The reality is that this road is hopelessly uneconomic, even by the Nats standards. No private investor would want to invest money in it. The climate is appalling for a road. The Cascade River is New Zealand’s largest unbridged river, and there are several others that would need to be bridged as well. Not to mention frequent washouts.

    There are no settlements in the area, just a few seasonal whitebaiters at Big Bay and Martins Bay – the only traffic will be tourists, and even then, it would be a bloody long drive. I expect that Wanaka would oppose it, as would Queenstown, and both towns have powerful commercial interests. In fact, Queenstown interests have a proposal of their own – to build a tunnel under the Humbolt Mountains from near Glenorchy into the Hollyford Valley. The price tag of this would be far less than building the Haast – Hollyford, but even then, this project is on hold.

    The only possible way it makes sense if it’s tied to mining proposals, and yes, this area is one of those under mining threat. The parts of western Mt Aspiring National Park, which border the road route, have been prospected in the past (look up the Red Hills for instance), and a track was bulldozed into them along the coastline in the 1970s. I have walked this on two occasions.

    Finally, this road traverses or comes close to what is probably the last and greatest “accessible” tramping wilderness in New Zealand (“the home of Arawata Bill’) – one of those incredibly rare places where it is possible to wander around for two weeks or longer without bumping into anyone. It offers some of the toughest and most serious tramping and mountaineering in the country, and therefore, training for those that do these things. It would destroy all that, by making some of the remotest areas in New Zealand readily accessible. There is a value in knowing that largely untouched places still exist, even if you never go there.

    But the real argument and organising principle to use against the road are the thousands of people that have entered the Hollyford Valley. That should be enough alone to stop it, without needing the other arguments.

  35. jcuknz 35

    Could be I’m the only one silly enough to spend time questioning you folk 🙂

    The sensible attitude I think is to admit that there is value in putting the road through and to balance it against the disruption it will cause to the area and to minimise that disruption by concealing it as far as possible. The conservationist attitude should be to limit its development to what is really needed, not permitting the usual ‘add-on’ that spoil the ‘untouched’ nature of the area. I have driven over several roads which took me through the wilderness for quite long distances without any support services available, warning signs to this effect at each end of the road. In two cases the alternative route involved well over a hundred miles of extra travel. As to if the road will pay for itself, if a private company would build it, surely the point of some government innitiatives is to provide neccessary services which don’t add up to immediate returns, or returns that cannot be measured. That can be an argument against what I am saying as equally as for me. A fully holistic survey will come out in favour of the road I’m sure.

    So I think a sensible compromise is possible.

  36. Jewish Kiwi 36

    You still haven’t described the step which takes someone from protesting against a tennis tournament to strapping on explosives and detonating them.

    Either you call everyone you disagree with a terrorist – rendering the term meaningless. Or you actually believe environmentalists will soon be hijacking planes and flying them into buildings.

    Either way, you should discontinue arguing your case, because your arguments will be dismissed before they are read.

    • Bored 36.1

      Interesting question: who do you call a terrorist? Is he a member of an overwhelmingly powerful group who enforces the will of a dominant political ideology / interest group by way of direct action and fear? Or might he be the member of a militarily weak and economically / politically marginalized group who oppose the former with focused smaller scale direct action to impose his ideological / political / economic interests through random force and fear? My take is that they are symbiotic and neither a desirable outcome, rather representatives of failed discourse.

      When ecologists sit in trees, or people protest against Israeli occupations etc you can pretty much assume that at least one side of the discourse (usually the one with the power) is not listening.

      • Pascal's bookie 36.1.1

        Interesting isn’t it?

        There was a nuclear scientist in Iran who found himself blown up a few days ago.

        Terrorism?

        If it was Mossad or the CIA what done it?

        He was closely tied to the reformers currently protesting. Would it be terrorism if the Iranian govt blew him up?

  37. jcuknz 37

    I didn’t intend to call anybody here a terrorist becuase I don’t agree with some of their ideas, but rather to point out how easy it is to take that final step when one is so convinced of the right of one’s views.
    For those who are trying to trip me up over what constitutes terrorism, can the authorities of a country be terrorists, I think the answer is yes. Though part of me hopes this is becuase when that happens it is an individual or group who are going wrong. Are the hawks of an administration.

    I have been on the wrong end of what I would call thuggery by the authorities when I was trying to peacefully and legally protest the visit of an American warship. Something like on a smaller scale to what the Greenpeace idiots were doing recently except the police were quite safe as I steered to avoid them whatever stupid and illegal manouvers they did. A powerboat is supposed to keep clear of a vessel under sail. Since the American ship could come under the heading of ‘Restricted ability to manouver’ I would have kept well clear of her too as a responsible boatie who had made himself aware of the Harbourmaster’s special regulations concerning the visit…But no, those ***** thugs abused their authority.

    I now have a horrible feeling that I have been talking about the wrong road, although I think my arguments apply to both potential connections …. The Queenstown to Milford shortcut and completing the ring road around the south Island by connecting Milford to Haast.. I’m suprised nobody has pointed out my error.

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  • Foreign Minister announces two diplomatic appointments
    Rt Hon Winston Peters, Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Foreign Affairs Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters today announced two diplomatic appointments: New Zealand’s High Commissioner to India and Consul-General to Hong Kong. “As New Zealand recovers from COVID-19, our diplomatic and trade networks are more important than ever. That is ...
    15 hours ago
  • Week That Was: Recover and rebuild
    We started the week by announcing free apprenticeships to support Kiwis into work and to help get New Zealand moving again - and we ended the week by extending the wage subsidy to 40,000 more businesses, helping to protect businesses and workers alike.  ...
    15 hours ago
  • How Budget 2020 is backing businesses
    We’re confident in the ability of Kiwi businesses to succeed in the face of COVID-19, and our Government is committed to doing our bit to enable that success. Kiwi businesses have always been innovative and resilient, and the COVID-19 pandemic has proven this yet again. Many businesses are finding new, creative ...
    15 hours ago
  • New Zealand First confirms its first tranche of candidates
    New Zealand First is pleased to release the names of its first tranche of candidates for the 2020 election. The includes all sitting New Zealand First Members of Parliament except Clayton Mitchell MP who earlier today announced he will not be seeking re-election. In alphabetical order they are: MP ...
    16 hours ago
  • New Zealand First MP Clayton Mitchell not seeking re-election
    Clayton Mitchell MP, New Zealand First List MP based in Tauranga New Zealand First MP Clayton Mitchell has decided not to seek re-election in this year’s General Election.  “After serious consideration and discussion with my family, I have decided to pursue other passions in my life and spend a lot ...
    16 hours ago
  • Five new Lockheed Martin Super Hercules aircraft to replace ageing fleet
    Defence Minister Ron Mark has announced that new Lockheed Martin Super Hercules aircraft would replace the outdated and costly 1960s Hercules fleet. The $1.521b project will include a flight simulator for staff training and other supporting infrastructure. "This fleet will ensure the Defence Force can continue to support New Zealand's ...
    17 hours ago
  • Greens urge police to rule out armed police patrols following George Floyd’s death
    The Green Party is urging the New Zealand Police to rule out the use of Armed Response Teams, following their recent trial in communities around Aotearoa. ...
    23 hours ago
  • NZ First fought for changes to “poorly-targeted” rent dispute policy
    New Zealand First leader Winston Peters has described Labour's original COVID-19 commercial rent dispute proposal as "poorly targeted". Justice Minister Andrew Little has announced a temporary law change to force commercial landlords and renters to consider COVID-19 in disputes over rent issues, almost two months after the Government first floated the idea.  But ...
    2 days ago
  • New Zealand First ensures commercial rent dispute clause fairly applied
    Rt Hon Winston Peters, Leader of New Zealand First New Zealand First acknowledges that some small businesses have been struggling to meet fixed costs due to the loss of revenue by COVID-19. We also know some businesses are at greater risk of insolvency when they cannot come to a reasonable ...
    2 days ago
  • New Zealand First disappointed that Section 70 spouses won’t get relief
    Rt Hon Winston Peters, Leader of New Zealand First New Zealand First is disappointed that the removal of the spousal deductions has had to be delayed by the Ministry fo Social Development, due to COVID19 workload pressures. “New Zealand First has always stood for fairness when it comes to superannuation ...
    4 days ago
  • Winston Peters receives petition demanding more protection for nurses
    Rt Hon Winston Peters, Leader of New Zealand First On the steps of Parliament today the Leader of New Zealand First, Rt Hon Winston Peters received a petition from registered nurse Anna Maria Coervers, requesting an amendment to the Protection for First Responders Bill which will ensure the legislation also include registered ...
    4 days ago
  • Week That Was: Getting our economy moving
    It's been a busy seven days as we start to rebuild New Zealand together. From delivering extra support for small businesses, to investing in our artists and arts organisations, to cutting red tape on home DIY projects, we're rolling out our plan to get the economy and New Zealand moving ...
    4 days ago
  • Winston Peters: If protests condoned ‘why are we not at level 1?’
    Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters says alert level 2 restrictions have to be discussed during today's Cabinet meeting. Thousands gathered across the country, including at Parliament, yesterday for Black Lives Matter marches where social distancing and mass gathering rules were flouted. Mr Peters said the breaching of Alert Level 2 rules at ...
    4 days ago
  • Northland rail work to help create regional jobs
    Rt Hon Winston Peters, Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of State Owned Enterprises KiwiRail’s Northland rail upgrade steps up another gear today and will help Northland recover from the impacts of COVID-19, State Owned Enterprises Minister Winston Peters says. The Government is investing $204.5 million through the Provincial Growth Fund to ...
    5 days ago
  • Green Party statement on the death of George Floyd
    “Today and every day we stand in solidarity with George Floyd’s family, friends and community who feel pain and fear about his untimely death at the hands of Minneapolis police”, said Green Party Co-leader and Māori Development spokesperson Marama Davidson. ...
    5 days ago
  • Lake Brunner’s Mount Te Kinga to go Predator Free
    Fletcher Tabuteau, Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Regional Economic Development Hon Eugenie Sage, Minister of Conservation The West Coast forests of Mount Te Kinga at Kotuku Whakaoho/Lake Brunner are the latest predator free project to receive Government funding, announced Minister of Conservation Eugenie Sage and Under Secretary for Regional Economic Development Fletcher ...
    1 week ago
  • Green Party welcomes crucial financial support for creatives
    The Green Party says new government support for creatives and artists is a vital lifeline for a sector struggling to survive the COVID crisis. ...
    1 week ago
  • Strongest ever water reforms mean swimmable rivers within a generation
    The Green Party says major freshwater reforms announced today provide the strongest ever protections of our waterways, to help ensure the next generation can swim in the rivers of Aotearoa. ...
    1 week ago
  • Greens work to secure inquiry into Wild West student accommodation sector
    The Green Party has begun the process for a Select Committee inquiry into student accommodation, which has been exposed during COVID-19 as an under-regulated sector that straddles students with unfair debt. ...
    1 week ago
  • New Zealand joins global search for COVID-19 vaccine
    Rt Hon Winston Peters, Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Foreign Affairs Hon Megan Woods, Minister of Research, Science and Innovation Hon Dr David Clark, Minister of Health Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters, Research, Science and Innovation Minister Megan Woods,  and Health Minister David Clark today announced a COVID-19 vaccine strategy, ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Budget 2020: Five things to know
    Budget 2020 is about rebuilding together, supporting jobs, getting business moving and the books back into the black. It’s an integral part of our COVID-19 economic response, and our plan to grow our economy and get New Zealand moving again. Here’s a quick look at the five top things you ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Green Party unveils its candidate list for the 2020 election
    The Green Party is pleased to reveal its candidate list for the upcoming election. With a mix of familiar faces and fresh new talent, this exceptional group of candidates are ready to lead the Greens back into Government. ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Coalition Government approves essential upgrades on Ōhakea Air Base
    The Coalition Government has approved $206 million in essential upgrades at Ōhakea Air Base.  Defence Minister Ron Mark said the money would be spent on improving old infrastructure. He said safety issues would be addressed, as well as upgrades to taxiways, accommodation and fresh, storm and waste water systems. "This ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Attributable to the Rt Hon Winston Peters
    Rt Hon Winston Peters, Leader of New Zealand First “I am not persisting with this case just for myself, but for all people who have had their privacy breached. Privacy of information is a cornerstone of our country’s democracy. Without it our society truly faces a bleak future. We now ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Forestry Minister Shane Jones moves to protect sawmills
    Forestry Minister Shane Jones has introduced a Bill to Parliament that he says will "force more transparency, integrity and respect" for the domestic wood-processing sector through the registration of log traders and practice standards. The Forests (Regulation of Log Traders and Forestry Advisers) Amendment Bill had its first reading in ...
    3 weeks ago
  • Green MP joins international call to cancel developing countries’ debt
    Green MP Golriz Ghahraman is joining over 300 lawmakers from around the world in calling on the big banks and the IMF to forgive the debt of developing countries, in the wake of the COVID crisis. ...
    3 weeks ago

  • Great Walks bookings open next week
    This summer presents a great opportunity for New Zealanders to get out into nature with bookings on Great Walks for 2020/21 set to open next week, says Minister of Conservation Eugenie Sage.  Bookings for the Great Walks will open between 9 and 11 June, excluding Milford and Routeburn tracks which ...
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    2 hours ago
  • Ministerial Diary April 2020
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    15 hours ago
  • Govt extends support schemes for businesses
    Extra 40,000 businesses to be eligible for wage subsidy extension Small business cashflow support application period extended The Government is today announcing further support for businesses that continue to be affected by the global COVID-19 pandemic, as the broader economy becomes one of the most open in the world following ...
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    17 hours ago
  • Five new Super Hercules to join Air Force fleet
    The Coalition Government has confirmed five Lockheed Martin C-130J-30 Super Hercules transport aircraft will be purchased to replace the existing fleet, Defence Minister Ron Mark announced today.  “Last year, Cabinet selected these aircraft as the preferred option to replace the current Hercules fleet. Procurement of the Super Hercules has been ...
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    17 hours ago
  • New public housing sets standard for future
    New public housing that will save tenants money in energy bills, and provide warmer, healthier and more comfortable homes, is setting the standard for the Government’s future public housing programme, Housing Minister Megan Woods said. Dr Woods opened the new Kāinga Ora – Homes and Communities complex, which has a ...
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    20 hours ago
  • Wairarapa Moana seeks international recognition as vital wetland
    The Minister of Conservation Eugenie Sage is celebrating World Environment Day with an announcement of a major step towards Wairarapa Moana being recognised as an internationally significant wetland. “Wairarapa Moana is an ecosystem of 10,000 hectares of wetland and open water that provides a home for indigenous fish, birds and ...
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    20 hours ago
  • First Police wing to complete training post lockdown
    A new-look Police graduation ceremony to take account of COVID19 health rules has marked the completion of training for 57 new constables. Police Minister Stuart Nash attended this afternoon's ceremony, where officers of Recruit Wing 337 were formally sworn in at the Royal New Zealand Police College without the normal support of ...
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    2 days ago
  • Government makes further inroads on predatory lenders
    Mobile traders and truck shops must adhere to responsible lending requirements Interest rate cap on high-cost loans Lenders prohibited from offering further credit to an applicant who has taken two high-cost loans in the past 90 days The Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs, Kris Faafoi, has signalled an end ...
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    2 days ago
  • New survey shows wage subsidy a “lifeline” for businesses, saved jobs
    94% of firms say wage subsidy had positive impact on cashflow 62% of firms say support helped to manage non-wage costs like rent A survey of business that have received the Government’s wage subsidy show it has played a significant role in saving jobs, and freed up cash flow to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Tax changes support economic recovery
    New legislation introduced to Parliament today will support growth and assist businesses on the road to economic recovery, said Revenue Minister Stuart Nash. “The Taxation (Annual Rates for 2020-21, Feasibility Expenditure, and Remedial Matters) Bill proposes that businesses can get tax deductions for ‘feasibility expenditure’ on new investments,” said Mr ...
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    2 days ago
  • $4.6 million financial relief for professional sports
    Sport and Recreation Minister Grant Robertson has welcomed the first release of funds from the $265 million Sport Recovery Package announced as part of Budget 2020. Sport NZ has announced that $4.6 million in funding will go to the Wellington Phoenix, NZ Warriors, Super Rugby teams and the ANZ Premiership ...
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    2 days ago
  • Critical support for strategic tourism assets
    An iconic New Zealand tourism attraction and the country’s 31 Regional Tourism Organisations are the first recipients of support from the $400 million Tourism Sector Recovery Plan, to help position the sector for recovery from COVID-19, Tourism Minister Kelvin Davis announced today. The plan includes a Strategic Tourism Assets Protection ...
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    2 days ago
  • Supporting Kiwi businesses to resolve commercial rent disputes
    The Government will legislate to ensure businesses that suffered as a result of the COVID-19 response will get help to resolve disputes over commercial rent issues, Justice Minister Andrew Little announced today. A temporary amendment to the Property Law Act will insert a clause in commercial leases requiring a fair ...
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    2 days ago
  • Prompt payments to SMEs even more urgent
    The Minister for Small Business says new data from Xero highlights the urgency of prompt payment practices to small and medium enterprises as we move into economic recovery. Last month Government ministers wrote to significant private enterprises and the banking industry to request they join efforts by government agencies to ...
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    2 days ago
  • Free period products in schools to combat poverty
    Young people in Waikato will be the first to have free access to period products in schools in another step to support children and young people in poverty,” Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said.  During term 3, the Ministry of Education will begin providing free period products to schools following the ...
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    3 days ago
  • Response to charges in New Plymouth
    The Minister of Police Stuart Nash has issued the following statement in response to charges filed against three Police officers this morning in the New Plymouth District Court. “Any incident involving a loss of life in Police custody is taken very seriously. The charges today reflect the gravity of the ...
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    3 days ago
  • Govt boosts innovation, R&D for economic rebuild
    $196 million for Crown Research Institutes $150 million for R&D loan scheme $33 million for Māori research and development opportunities $12 million for the Nationally Significant Collections and Databases $10 million to help maintain in-house capability at Callaghan Innovation New Zealand’s entrepreneurs, innovators and crown researchers will benefit from a ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Temporary changes to NCEA and University Entrance this year
    Further temporary changes to NCEA and University Entrance (UE) will support senior secondary school students whose teaching and learning have been disrupted by COVID-19. “The wellbeing of students and teachers is a priority. As we are all aware, COVID-19 has created massive disruption to the school system, and the Government ...
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    3 days ago
  • Extended terms for the directors of the Racing Industry Transition Agency
    Minister for Racing Winston Peters today announced that the terms for the directors of the Racing Industry Transition Agency (RITA) have been extended to 30 June 2021. Due to the COVID-19 crisis the transition period has been extended to ensure that the Racing Industry Bill can complete its progress through ...
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    3 days ago
  • Healthy Homes Standards statement of compliance deadline extended
    The deadline for landlords to include detailed information in their tenancy agreements about how their property meets the Healthy Homes Standards, so tenants can see the home they are renting is compliant, has been extended from 1 July 2020 to 1 December 2020.  The Healthy Homes Standards became law on 1 July 2019. The Standards are ...
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    4 days ago
  • Criminal Cases Review Commission board appointments announced
    Justice Minister Andrew Little today announced details of further appointments to the Criminal Cases Review Commission. “I am pleased to announce Paula Rose QSO OStJ as Deputy Chief Commissioner for a term of five years commencing on 15 June 2020,” said Andrew Little. “I am also pleased to announce the ...
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    4 days ago
  • Release of initial list of supported training to aid COVID-19 recovery
    The Targeted Training and Apprenticeships Fund (TTAF) will pay costs of learners of all ages to undertake vocational education and training The fund will target support for areas of study and training that will give learners better employment prospects as New Zealand recovers from COVID-19 Apprentices working in all industries ...
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    4 days ago
  • Emission trading reforms another step to meeting climate targets
    The Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) will finally start to cut New Zealand’s greenhouse gas pollution as it was originally intended to, because of changes announced today by the Minister for Climate Change, James Shaw. The changes include a limit on the total emissions allowed within the ETS, rules to ensure ...
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    4 days ago
  • Queen’s Birthday Honours highlights Pacific leadership capability in Aotearoa
    Minister for Pacific Peoples Aupito William Sio says the Queen’s Birthday 2020 Honours List provides an abundance of examples that Pacific people’s leadership capability is unquestionable in Aotearoa. “The work and the individuals we acknowledge this year highlights the kind of visionary examples and dedicated community leadership that we need ...
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    5 days ago
  • Govt backing horticulture to succeed
    The Government is backing a new $27 million project aimed at boosting sustainable horticulture production and New Zealand’s COVID-19 recovery efforts, says Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor. “Our horticulture sector has long been one of New Zealand’s export star performers, contributing around $6 billion a year to our economy. During and ...
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    5 days ago
  • Applications open for forestry scholarships
    Applications have opened for 2021 Ngā Karahipi Uru Rākau – Forestry Scholarships, which will support more Māori and women to pursue careers in forestry science, says Forestry Minister Shane Jones. “I’m delighted Te Uru Rākau is offering Ngā Karahipi Uru Rākau – Forestry Scholarships for the third year running. These ...
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    5 days ago
  • Excellent service to nature recognised
    The Queen’s Birthday 2020 Honours List once again highlights the dedication by many to looking after our native plants and wildlife, including incredible work to restore the populations of critically endangered birds says Minister of Conservation Eugenie Sage. Anne Richardson of Hororata has been made an Officer of the New ...
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    5 days ago
  • Wetlands and waterways gain from 1BT funding
    The Government will invest $10 million from the One Billion Trees Fund for large-scale planting to provide jobs in communities and improve the environment, Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor and Forestry Minister Shane Jones have announced. New, more flexible funding criteria for applications will help up to 10 catchment groups plant ...
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    6 days ago
  • New fund for women now open
    Organisations that support women are invited to apply to a new $1,000,000 fund as part of the Government’s COVID-19 response. “We know women, and organisations that support women, have been affected by COVID-19. This new money will ensure funding for groups that support women and women’s rights,” said Minister for ...
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    6 days ago
  • Govt supports King Country farmers to lift freshwater quality
    Healthier waterways are front and centre in a new project involving more than 300 King Country sheep, beef and dairy farmers. The Government is investing $844,000 in King Country River Care, a group that helps farmers to lift freshwater quality and farming practice, Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor announced today. “Yesterday ...
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    1 week ago
  • Libraries to help with jobs and community recovery
    A major funding package for libraries will allow them to play a far greater role in supporting their communities and people seeking jobs as part of the economic recovery from COVID-19. “Budget 2020 contains over $60 million of funding to protect library services and to protect jobs,” says Internal Affairs ...
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    1 week ago
  • Support for arts and music sector recovery
    A jobseekers programme for the creative sector and four new funds have been set up by the Government to help our arts and music industry recover from the blow of COVID-19. Thousands of jobs will be supported through today’s $175 million package in a crucial economic boost to support the ...
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    1 week ago
  • Legislative changes to support the wellbeing of veterans and their families
    Minister for Veterans Ron Mark has welcomed the First Reading of a Bill that will make legislative changes to further improve the veterans’ support system.  The Veterans’ Support Amendment Bill No 2, which will amend the Veterans’ Support Act 2014, passed First Reading today. The bill addresses a number of ...
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    1 week ago
  • Christ Church Cathedral – Order in Council
    Views sought on Order in Council to help fast track the reinstatement of the Christ Church Cathedral  The Associate Minister for Greater Christchurch Regeneration, Hon Poto Williams, will be seeking public written comment, following Cabinet approving the drafting of an Order in Council aimed at fast-tracking the reinstatement of the ...
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    1 week ago
  • New Zealanders’ human rights better protected in new Bill
    The law setting out New Zealanders’ basic civil and human rights is today one step towards being strengthened following the first reading of a Bill that requires Parliament to take action if a court says a statute undermines those rights. At present, a senior court can issue a ‘declaration of ...
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    1 week ago
  • Deep concern at Hong Kong national security legislation
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters today reiterated the deep concern of the New Zealand Government following confirmation by China’s National People’s Congress of national security legislation relating to Hong Kong. “New Zealand shares the international community’s significant and long-standing stake in Hong Kong’s prosperity and stability,” Mr Peters said. “New Zealand ...
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    1 week ago
  • Government invests in New Zealand’s cultural recovery
    Thousands of artists and creatives at hundreds of cultural and heritage organisations have been given much-needed support to recover from the impact of COVID-19, Prime Minister and Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Jacinda Ardern announced today. “The cultural sector was amongst the worst hit by the global pandemic,” Jacinda ...
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    1 week ago
  • Better protection for New Zealand assets during COVID-19 crisis
    Key New Zealand assets will be better protected from being sold to overseas owners in a way contrary to the national interest, with the passage of the Overseas Investment (Urgent Measures) Bill. The Bill, which passed its third reading in Parliament today, also cuts unnecessary red tape to help attract ...
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    1 week ago
  • Cleaning up our rivers and lakes
    Setting higher health standards at swimming spots Requiring urban waterways to be cleaned up and new protections for urban streams Putting controls on higher-risk farm practices such as winter grazing and feed lots Setting stricter controls on nitrogen pollution and new bottom lines on other measures of waterway health Ensuring ...
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    1 week ago
  • Record year for diversity on Govt boards
    The Government is on the verge of reaching its target of state sector boards and committees made up of at least 50 percent women, says Minister for Women Julie Anne Genter and Minister for Ethnic Communities Jenny Salesa. For the first time, the Government stocktake measures the number of Māori, ...
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    1 week ago