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Brownlee: Bulldoze road through Fiordland

Written By: - Date published: 10:56 am, January 14th, 2010 - 90 comments
Categories: Conservation, heritage - Tags:

What a start to the new year.

photo from tramper.co.nz

Gerry Brownlee has admitted he’s pushing for a road to be built through our most pristine National Park, Fiordland. The Southland Times reports:

A long-mooted proposal for a road through pristine forest between Haast and the Hollyford Valley is again being considered by the Government.

Economic Development Minister Gerry Brownlee confirmed the project was “under consideration” and has asked for more analysis after raising the subject with Cabinet colleagues.

Putting a road through the Hollyford Valley will destroy some of our most spectacular scenery and one of the most special places in the country. The fact the National Government may destroy such a beautiful spot brings a tear to my eye.

I think Mr Brownlee may underestimate how millions of Kiwis will feel about a road being bulldozed through one of their most precious spots. Kiwis won’t let their country be destroyed without a fight.

And what does Minister of Tourism John Key have to say about this?

90 comments on “Brownlee: Bulldoze road through Fiordland ”

  1. IrishBill 1

    Oh for f*ck’s sake.

  2. Quay 2

    From Crusher Collins to Bulldozer Brownlee.

  3. BLiP 3

    Great spot for a 100% Pure McDonalds.

    • felix 3.1

      Thanks National Ltd ™ etc.

      • burt 3.1.1

        felix

        Watch some of the clips from the http://www.hollyford.com

        “A crossing of Fiordlands longest swing bridge is a great way to burn off a cooked or continental breakfast.”

        oh year, that’s wilderness – It’s already Fiordland ltd. ™

        • NickS 3.1.1.1

          Thing is, gravel tracks and swing bridges have far less environmental impact in comparison to a two lane, asphalt road and accompanying extensive earth works for bridge supports. Partly due to the fact that tree-cover remains intact.

          Heck, swing bridges are rather common DoC tracks, and provide access when rivers are high, or where cutting an access track into and out of a water-way is problematic

          • felix 3.1.1.1.1

            No Nick you don’t understand. In burt’s world a grain of sand is exactly the same as a beach and a blade of grass as a forest.

            • NickS 3.1.1.1.1.1

              Heh.

              That’s a much nicer why of putting it than what I was thinking 😛

              Oh yeah, running with burt’s use of wilderness and “real” tramping, under burt’s thinking it’s thus rather wrong to use tracks with track markers, or ones which have been cut, or any track with bridges. And forget using DoC huts etc, let alone any provided toilets, instead one should go into teh bush with naught but a map, compass and a pack, because anything more is fake.

              Irrespective of personal finances, (good gear isn’t cheap), fitness*, experience and bushcraft skills.

              *Yes, I’m on the fat side and I use yuppie-sticks (shin-splint prevention), on the other hand though I don’t blink an eye-lid at 5-10hr walks on the hills, even on a couple of hours of sleep.

            • burt 3.1.1.1.1.2

              So it has been developed just enough for you then, phew here was me thinking that once it was developed at all it was only a question of how much – but now I know that even though it’s already wide enough for a quad bike it’s just right now today and as it always should be forever.

              • felix

                I thought the point I was alluding to was a very simple one, burt; that in my opinion the less it’s “developed” the better.

  4. roger nome 4

    has this spongy bohemeth even walked the hollyford track before deciding that he’s going to put a bulldozer through it? if this goes ahead it’s going to put a huge dent in National’s popularity. but to be honest, i’d rather see this beautiful area kept the way it is than that.

  5. Armchair Critic 5

    Let’s hope the B/C is not higher than 0.6, and Steve Joyce does not designate it as a Road of National Significance.

  6. RedLogix 6

    Frack.

    I will go feral over this.

  7. Tigger 7

    Key is ‘relaxed’ until he gets more focus group research on how he should react.

    • Crash Cart 7.1

      I heard that Brownlee sold it to him on the premise that it will be a “relaxing drive through what use to be the most beautiful part of NZ”.

  8. roger nome 8

    this would be a way huger deal than happy valley. the profile of fiordland is much larger, and there’s a lot of rich people that live out that way. when the protest movement involves vast numbers of “middle NZ” that’s when you know it’s politically significant.

  9. Bill 9

    Ever had a good look at the tourists coming through NZ? I mean the monied ones, not the back packers. A lot of them are old, not too fit. They want escalators where slopes and steps used to suffice. And the customer is always right and in tourism, is to be catered to, both figuratively and literally.

    Anyway, since the object of tourism is to part the tourist from their cash and as the Southland Times reports…”Given the Government and Prime Minister’s view on access to conservation land, there was never a better opportunity to gain political support, she (Westland District Council Mayor Maureen Pugh) said”

    but this is my favourite

    “Mr Hagaman said building the road would create the eighth wonder of the world…”

    A strip of fucking tarmac. Eighth wonder of the world. The imagination of some people is way beyond me.

    • Tigger 9.1

      That is classic! Talk about killing the golden goose.

    • roger nome 9.2

      have you ever walke the hollyford track bill? lots of oldies do it, it’s not that hard.

      p.s. i’ve decided to stop using capitals at the start of sentances. there’s no logical reason, it’s just an arcane waist of time imo. join me in the revolution!

      • felix 9.2.1

        You’ve stopped using them at the start of proper nouns too. How far down this slippery slope do you intend going?

      • DavidW 9.2.2

        waist of time ?? Yeah I get tight on the clock too but that is playing a little too fast and loose with a beautiful language.

        • snoozer 9.2.2.1

          haven’t heard it called beautiful before.

          flexible, adaptive, easy to learn the basics – impossible to learn all the difficult bits, a true modern language with scant regard for its own rules, a linguistic expression of the best and worst of the anglo meta-culture. It’s all those things but beautiful, sadly no.

      • ConorJoe 9.2.3

        ‘sentances’ Mr Nome? Give up on spelling as well ay?

      • lprent 9.2.4

        Just so long as you don’t decide to start SHOUTING, I couldn’t care less.

        However you should really do something about the spelling.

      • Bill 9.2.5

        Ever walked back up the path from the [ insert tourist attraction] to the bus? Lots of tourist oldies do it. And lots of not so oldie tourists just simply cant. They get carted.

  10. richard 10

    Hagaman should concentrate on tidying up some of his craphole hotels and staff accommodation in places like Franz Josef. Talk about a blot on the landscape!
    People have been bleating on about building this road this for years, but I have never heard one tourist ask for it. They seem to like NZ the way it is, and see the West Coast and Fiordland as the true wilderness of NZ – the very thing they have come to see.

  11. Bored 11

    Cant he just reduce it to a cycleway? I believe there is budget for this and it will create lots of jobs. And Jonkey says it is real…now imagine that the dead end on the Waikato stretch joined the Hollyford…….

    • Bored 11.1

      B*****r, I forgot, cycleways are unfriendly to large mineral moving machinery and mining equipment.

    • burt 11.2

      Add in a cycleway, hell yes,. There should be hundreds of kilometers of sweet single track in there as well as the mupped 4WD size gravel roads required so everyone can have a go. Varying length sections of medium to difficult grade single track linked up with swanky bars with outdoor spa pools serving excellent food. Back packers with comfortable affordable rooms and bike mechanics on site for overnight repairs. Keep the bikers and the walkers apart and all is good, just don’t add a road – that’s too much.

      • felix 11.2.1

        Translation:
        If you don’t want this road through Fiordland you’re a hypocrite because burt knows that what you really want is swanky bars with outdoor spa pools all over Fiordland.

      • Bored 11.2.2

        Hi Burt, I hate biking in rain and sandflies….quite happy to terminate the cycleway at Tuatapere. Methinks the roads will do for cycleways s soon as oil prices rocket.
        More seriously road = mining, Thats the danger. I like the area pristine and trackless best.

      • burt 11.2.3

        felix

        Translation 2: Only NickS is allowed to say how it should be and how it is now is perfect and how it should be forever.

        This has however proven my point, NickS says it is great with gravel tracks and guides and with no need to carry your own gear around. (IE: developed a long way from the wilderness experience) but when I say I would like it developed for biking – Oh no… that will never do.

        I started saying;” In my opinion it’s already ruined from a wilderness perspective, now we are just arguing over who decides what more we do with it. “

        So If NickS can have his 2m wide gravel walking tracks why can’t I have bike tracks and bars ?

  12. randal 12

    according to all reliable evidence neanderthals dissappeared 60,000 years ago.
    it appears that one strain of that species has survived. admixed with a generous helping of philistinism.

  13. randal 13

    have they sold the rights to the hot dog stand yet?

  14. Draco T Bastard (mobile) 14

    National: Destroying NZ’s 100% Pure Brand one conservation estate at a time.

  15. Pascal's bookie 15

    No Nactional apologists in this thread yet.

    This week the regulars have been able to craft apologia for whalers, war crimes, breaking suppression orders put in place to protect kids, and dodgy arrests.

    Funny.

    • fizzleplug 15.1

      Ask, and ye shall receive.

      Oh wait, not an apologist, just someone with a mainly differing point of view (although not in this case – I enjoy the wilds). Of course, if anyone thinks this will eventuate, you need to have your head examined a little for paranoia and delusion. After all, when was the last time this government followed through on anything???

      • Jim McDonald 15.1.1

        just wondering if this is another one of this Government’s favourite classic trademark distractions and fillers they regularly toss up to fill the media and provide some semblance of working (!?)

      • Murray 15.1.2

        fizzleplug: you should know by now that paranoia and delusion are the norm for the labour left

        • Pascal's bookie 15.1.2.1

          Did you know that the ETS is part of a secret global Commun1st plan for One World Government? It’s true. Store water and buy guns. Become a Sovereign Citizen today and protect our children’s freedom. BEFORE IT”S TOO LATE.

  16. Nick 16

    The fact the National Government may destroy such a beautiful spot brings a tear to my eye.

    *Provides a tissue*.

  17. Benjamin B. 17

    Is it just me or does this scream ‘mining’ between the lines?

    • Tigger 17.1

      Well roads do make it easier to get big mining equipment and personnel to all those goodies lying under the pristine landscape. And if you’re roading the area why not dig a little deeper before laying the asphalt…

    • burt 17.2

      Wind farms & hydro dams. That’s what the roads are for.

  18. NickS 18

    Evidently Gerry’s also forgotten what else building roads through undisturbed wilderness is good for, namely acting as plant pest high-ways, and introducing edge-effects which can alter forest micro-climates for kilometres either side. Causing disturbances which can allow for invasive plant and insect species to establish, but also alter local insect ecologies….

    And all for mineral resources, wait I mean “tourists” that for teh cost of building a road through rather troublesome terrain will probably exceed the income.

    National, failing to understand cost/benefit ratio’s since 2008 by ignoring inconvenient parts of the costs.

  19. A quick google Red Hill- mining and you get a better understanding of what Gerry fat gut Brownlee is up to. A Dunedin co, Ophir Mining Ltd have been granted a license for the Red Hills area. Years ago they mined “Blue asbestos” (i think) from their. I am not a 100% sure on it’s exact location but it is up some were inland around around the Lake Alabaster area.
    I,m not sure if this is the exact location of the gold mining license but would be a good reason why big Gerry is looking at a road into the Holyford Vally.

    • Peter Wilson 19.1

      The Red Hills were prospected extensively in the 1960s and 1970s by Kennicott Ltd from the US. They even bulldozed a road down the coast and up the Pyke Valley and built a base in the Upper Pyke Valley. The last of this was removed a few years ago, although there are still a few rusting bulldozers around.

      The asbestos deposit was actually in the Little Red Hills (just south), but it was found to be uneconomic.

  20. Benjamin B: screams mining!

  21. Chris 21

    Well. Guess Brown-‘coalismymiddlename’-lee doesn’t care much about tourism, NZ’s overseas image or those nasty creatures that live in the bush, or trees. Not surprising.

    However, Earl Hagaman’s support and instigation of the project needs to be highlighted and thanks to capitalism, you can. Boycott Senic Hotels.

    Write to Scenic Hotels explaining your opposition to the road and that you’ll stay elsewhere, tell all your mates overseas about this nonsensically criminal idea and Scenic Hotel’s involvement in it. Set up a FB group.

    Capitalism is both a curse and a blessing, so work it to your advantage!

    • Write to Scenic Hotels explaining your opposition to the road and that you’ll stay elsewhere, tell all your mates overseas about this nonsensically criminal idea and Scenic Hotel’s involvement in it. Set up a FB group.

      Sounds like a good idea. I wonder how many torists they’ll get if there are people outside their hotels waving signs calling them on their support for environmental vandalism?

    • burt 21.2

      Hey I know, get loads of people in the Hollyford valley with megaphones protesting that the area should be kept as a wilderness area. Start with making the place unbearable for the people on guided walks because they are already supporting capitalism benefiting from the exploitation of natural resources.

  22. It wont happen, Brownlee woyuldn’t be that stupid.

  23. Chris 23

    But then again, he’s not that bright.

    A worrisome combination. Drunk on power and not that bright. Mind, he’s had plenty of role models to follow.

  24. this is what brownlee said the other day

    “The Minister of Conservation and I have, therefore, asked officials to review areas listed on schedule four with a view to adding some conservation areas that should be closed to the possibility of mining access, except underground mining that does not disturb the land surface.”

    pretty big ‘except’ there and if he spins this ‘underground mining that does not disturb the land surface’ bullshit line then he can say “well the road is nothing to do with the mining so who gives a fuck about the land surface disturbance… “

  25. burt 25

    I’m torn on this issue actually. Mining as well. If every generation decided to draw a line in the sand and protect all undeveloped areas then we would still be living in a band about 1k from the beach in NZ.

    I’ve tramped through a lot of NZ wilderness over many years and I’ve seen many areas developed immeasurably since I first started visiting them. When I was young we said the introduction of graveled tracks would be the ruin of tramping in NZ. We moaned that walking track “Highways” that you could ride a bike down would invade the national & forest parks and “real tramping” areas would get smaller and smaller. As was obvious this has largely occurred and now we market our country on “great walks” and “guided wilderness” where people don’t even carry their own kit from palatial hut to palatial hut.

    Great that it has increased tourism numbers and great that it is a healthy thing to be doing but it’s not wilderness is it.

    I would rather it wasn’t mined, I would rather it wasn’t developed, but I’d also rather it didn’t have large numbers of guided muppets being coddled along on gravel tracks as well. In my opinion it’s already ruined from a wilderness perspective, now we are just arguing over who decides what more we do with it.

    • Clarke 25.1

      Well …. I’m not sure I agree with your slightly nihilistic view, burt, but having walked quite a few of the major tracks I can certainly appreciate the sentiment. And you make the point very eloquently.

  26. Highways, lay-bys, petrol stations, restrooms, rubbish bins, gravel depots, emergency phones, motels, airstrips, cribs, bars, restaurants, police stations, councils, ratepayers, government bureaucracies and services, just go ahead and build an exclusive resort town there.
    Call it Mitre Peak.
    Is this how Aspen came about?
    Oh, no, they just want to mine there.
    This government. What a perfect way to kick off a year of discontent and disillusionment with their wise and adoring public.

  27. Sanctuary 27

    Jesus, has someone told Gerry Brownlee that we’ve got Unobtainium in our National Parks?

  28. Jim McDonald 28

    That’s daft !

  29. jcuknz 29

    Firstly …”destroy some of our most spectacular scenery and one of the most special places in the country” is a load of rubbish.
    It is economically [ not ecconomically please note, though it is] justified with the reduced travel time and waste of fuel with dozens of buses plus cars travelling the round route from Queenstown to Milford.and back every day.
    If you want trees covering the road, such as frequently on the road to Milford one could organise the road as a pair of single lane highways with sensible passing loops in areas where trees will not grow big enough. Also one could lower the road into the ground so that vehicles are not obvious to the eye, with their sound suppressed when foliage can’t do that.
    .
    It is so nice the selfishness of the younger fit members of our community trying to preserve these wilderness areas against the common sense of ecconomics and economics. Depriving the world of the chance to see these places in the limited time frame most tourists have.

  30. Clarke 30

    It is economically [ not ecconomically please note, though it is] justified with the reduced travel time and waste of fuel with dozens of buses plus cars travelling the round route from Queenstown to Milford.and back every day.

    Thanks for that incoherent bunch of nonsense, but I call bullshit. Care to provide a link to the NZ Transport Agency study that demonstrates a positive benefit/cost ratio for this proposed monument to Brownlee’s stupidity? No? Could it be that no such study exists?

    It is so nice the selfishness of the younger fit members of our community trying to preserve these wilderness areas against the common sense of ecconomics and economics.

    It’s so nice that the older generation show up for these discussions and demonstrate their complete ignorance of both traditional economics and the environmental impact of their 1960s-era proposals. If an unnecessary road through a UN World Heritage Area is your idea of “common” sense, then you’re welcome to it, grandad.

    • Macro 30.1

      “It’s so nice that the older generation show up for these discussions and demonstrate their complete ignorance of both traditional economics and the environmental impact of their 1960s-era proposals. If an unnecessary road through a UN World Heritage Area is your idea of “common’ sense, then you’re welcome to it, grandad.”
      Hey! I’m a grandad!
      Ageism is apparently alive and well, and living on “the standard.”
      So none of your cheek sonny!

      • Clarke 30.1.1

        So none of your cheek sonny!

        Awww! But grandad – he started it! (Runs off sniveling ….)

    • jcuknz 30.2

      I don’t need any NZTA survey to let me appreciate common sense and a personal knowledge of the roads involved. It is stupid to go two sides of a triangle when there is a positble hypotenuse route. Beauty anyway is in the eye of the beholder and a carefully and thoughtfully crafted road, built with consideration for the environment, can be as beautiful as a rose or anything else of beauty. The trouble with these greeny extremists, one step away from being terrorists, is that they think in terms of black and white, yes and no, without sensible compromise. I wonder who were the fools who made it a heritage park before the neccessary road was built? It is nice but selfish for only the fit and healthy can enjoy such places … and the fly fishermen running their business and disturb the place with helicopters … the anti stance smells mildly I think.

      • Clarke 30.2.1

        I don’t need any NZTA survey to let me appreciate common sense and a personal knowledge of the roads involved.

        Translation: I’m not going to let facts get in the way of my biases, and wish to become a Fox News commentator when I grow up.

        A carefully and thoughtfully crafted road, built with consideration for the environment, can be as beautiful as a rose or anything else of beauty.

        Gets my vote as Troll Of The Week.

  31. Jewish Kiwi 31

    @jcuknz

    “…one step away from being terrorists”

    Can you elaborate on which step that is?

    If you don’t, everyone will assume you have no idea what terrorism is.

    I’m just curious to know, so I can better understand terrorism and its causes.

  32. jcuknz 32

    Die hard extremists are one small step away from being terrorists. A recent NZ example was the destruction of the church billboard in Auckland. People convinced of their cause believe they have the justification to do all sorts of things … like making a noise outside tennis matches, the list is endless. Spreading nails on motorways ….

    Any NZTA survey report is the opinion of someone or a group, just as my opinion, both are valid expressions of opinion based on facts as I/they see it as indeed are yours. If we want to progress our nation one needs to balance the preservation against common sense development.

    It cannot be a yes/no situation but needs to be a sensible compromise.

    It seems to me that most people here simply say no as a matter of principle without really considering the facts. Principles are good until they lead you down a false path. This applies to both the proposed road and surveys of mineral deposits. As I’ve said previously it makes good sense to know what you have tucked away in the piggy bank.

    I have no desire to be a Fox commentator when I grow up, I am a grown up and thinking person, obviously with views different to yourself on this subject and I don’t wish to engage in a slanging match … go to Kiwiblog et al to do that.

    • Draco T Bastard (mobile) 32.1

      Ah, glad you cleared that up. After decades of,wrongly, believing that democracy was a Good Thing it’s a shock to discover that it’s actually TERRORISM.

      • Pascal's bookie 32.1.1

        the terrorists hate us for our freedoms,
        people hate what they fear,
        we must eliminate their hate.

    • Clarke 32.2

      If you’re happy to call people who are opposed to running a road through a World Heritage Area “terrorists”, then I guess you’d also be happy if they characterised your position as an “environmental rapist”. After all, if you’re going to use emotive (and inaccurate and highly offensive) language, it should run in both directions.

      If we want to progress our nation one needs to balance the preservation against common sense development.

      You keep coming back to this idea that your position is “common sense”, yet even the most cursory examination of the comments in this thread indicates that your pro-roading stance certainly isn’t “common” – in fact, you seem to be the sole person who thinks Brownlee’s road is a good idea.

      And as for the idea that it’s “sense”, I note that you haven’t produced a single scrap of evidence that this road has any economic justification, probably because no such evidence exists. You’re perfectly entitled to have an opinion about the project, but given that people have opinions that they’ve been abducted by space aliens and that Elvis lives in Vegas, that’s not saying much.

    • logie97 32.3

      jcuknz – is it extremist to say pause one moment?

      Planet Earth has gone through catastrophic change since the Industrial Revolution but more particularly in the 20th century. Man has altered the world beyond recognition is his demand for its resources.

      New Zealand was largely bush clad and the waters would have teamed with marine-life. It would be fair to say that man lived reasonably at one with nature (basically because he did not have the means to exploit it).

      What has taken billions of years to evolve has in part been changed in less than 200 years.

      One of the “riches” of the earth is gold. Now I know that there are a myriad of uses for the mineral but for most of it to be turned into ingots and stored in bank vaults does not seem to me to be a reasonable justification for destroying tracts of land.

      You and I and Gerry can only expect to be here for three score years and ten.

  33. Pascal's bookie 33

    “I don’t wish to engage in a slanging match”

    Then stop saying people are extremists only and only one small step away from being terrorists if they oppose this particular road.

  34. Peter Wilson 34

    Yeah, this is thoroughly shocking, but also predictable. The Haast – Hollyford road idea gets wheeled out quite frequently (as does the Karamea – Collingwood road idea, which generally gets less coverage because it isn’t Fiordland). It is a crazy proposal in an area long known for crazy proposals and pipe dreams. A lost ruby mine, a sea boot full of gold, and more recently, a monorail, a gondola project, two tunnels, a floating bridge across Lake Wakatipu, and a road up the Greenstone Valley.

    The reality is that this road is hopelessly uneconomic, even by the Nats standards. No private investor would want to invest money in it. The climate is appalling for a road. The Cascade River is New Zealand’s largest unbridged river, and there are several others that would need to be bridged as well. Not to mention frequent washouts.

    There are no settlements in the area, just a few seasonal whitebaiters at Big Bay and Martins Bay – the only traffic will be tourists, and even then, it would be a bloody long drive. I expect that Wanaka would oppose it, as would Queenstown, and both towns have powerful commercial interests. In fact, Queenstown interests have a proposal of their own – to build a tunnel under the Humbolt Mountains from near Glenorchy into the Hollyford Valley. The price tag of this would be far less than building the Haast – Hollyford, but even then, this project is on hold.

    The only possible way it makes sense if it’s tied to mining proposals, and yes, this area is one of those under mining threat. The parts of western Mt Aspiring National Park, which border the road route, have been prospected in the past (look up the Red Hills for instance), and a track was bulldozed into them along the coastline in the 1970s. I have walked this on two occasions.

    Finally, this road traverses or comes close to what is probably the last and greatest “accessible” tramping wilderness in New Zealand (“the home of Arawata Bill’) – one of those incredibly rare places where it is possible to wander around for two weeks or longer without bumping into anyone. It offers some of the toughest and most serious tramping and mountaineering in the country, and therefore, training for those that do these things. It would destroy all that, by making some of the remotest areas in New Zealand readily accessible. There is a value in knowing that largely untouched places still exist, even if you never go there.

    But the real argument and organising principle to use against the road are the thousands of people that have entered the Hollyford Valley. That should be enough alone to stop it, without needing the other arguments.

  35. jcuknz 35

    Could be I’m the only one silly enough to spend time questioning you folk 🙂

    The sensible attitude I think is to admit that there is value in putting the road through and to balance it against the disruption it will cause to the area and to minimise that disruption by concealing it as far as possible. The conservationist attitude should be to limit its development to what is really needed, not permitting the usual ‘add-on’ that spoil the ‘untouched’ nature of the area. I have driven over several roads which took me through the wilderness for quite long distances without any support services available, warning signs to this effect at each end of the road. In two cases the alternative route involved well over a hundred miles of extra travel. As to if the road will pay for itself, if a private company would build it, surely the point of some government innitiatives is to provide neccessary services which don’t add up to immediate returns, or returns that cannot be measured. That can be an argument against what I am saying as equally as for me. A fully holistic survey will come out in favour of the road I’m sure.

    So I think a sensible compromise is possible.

  36. Jewish Kiwi 36

    You still haven’t described the step which takes someone from protesting against a tennis tournament to strapping on explosives and detonating them.

    Either you call everyone you disagree with a terrorist – rendering the term meaningless. Or you actually believe environmentalists will soon be hijacking planes and flying them into buildings.

    Either way, you should discontinue arguing your case, because your arguments will be dismissed before they are read.

    • Bored 36.1

      Interesting question: who do you call a terrorist? Is he a member of an overwhelmingly powerful group who enforces the will of a dominant political ideology / interest group by way of direct action and fear? Or might he be the member of a militarily weak and economically / politically marginalized group who oppose the former with focused smaller scale direct action to impose his ideological / political / economic interests through random force and fear? My take is that they are symbiotic and neither a desirable outcome, rather representatives of failed discourse.

      When ecologists sit in trees, or people protest against Israeli occupations etc you can pretty much assume that at least one side of the discourse (usually the one with the power) is not listening.

      • Pascal's bookie 36.1.1

        Interesting isn’t it?

        There was a nuclear scientist in Iran who found himself blown up a few days ago.

        Terrorism?

        If it was Mossad or the CIA what done it?

        He was closely tied to the reformers currently protesting. Would it be terrorism if the Iranian govt blew him up?

  37. jcuknz 37

    I didn’t intend to call anybody here a terrorist becuase I don’t agree with some of their ideas, but rather to point out how easy it is to take that final step when one is so convinced of the right of one’s views.
    For those who are trying to trip me up over what constitutes terrorism, can the authorities of a country be terrorists, I think the answer is yes. Though part of me hopes this is becuase when that happens it is an individual or group who are going wrong. Are the hawks of an administration.

    I have been on the wrong end of what I would call thuggery by the authorities when I was trying to peacefully and legally protest the visit of an American warship. Something like on a smaller scale to what the Greenpeace idiots were doing recently except the police were quite safe as I steered to avoid them whatever stupid and illegal manouvers they did. A powerboat is supposed to keep clear of a vessel under sail. Since the American ship could come under the heading of ‘Restricted ability to manouver’ I would have kept well clear of her too as a responsible boatie who had made himself aware of the Harbourmaster’s special regulations concerning the visit…But no, those ***** thugs abused their authority.

    I now have a horrible feeling that I have been talking about the wrong road, although I think my arguments apply to both potential connections …. The Queenstown to Milford shortcut and completing the ring road around the south Island by connecting Milford to Haast.. I’m suprised nobody has pointed out my error.

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  • Regenerative agriculture research receives Government boost
    The Government continues to invest in farm sustainability, this time backing two new research projects to investigate the impacts of regenerative farming practices, Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor announced today. Soil health and regenerative agriculture “We’re contributing $2.8 million to a $3.85 million five-year project with co-investment by Synlait Milk and ...
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    1 day ago
  • David McLean appointed as KiwiRail chair
    David McLean has been appointed as Chair of KiwiRail Holdings Ltd, the Minister for State Owned Enterprises Dr David Clark and Minister of Finance Grant Robertson announced today. “Minister Clark and I are confident that David’s extensive business knowledge and leadership experience, including his time as former Chief Executive and ...
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    3 days ago
  • New Ambassador to Turkey announced
    Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta today announced the appointment of Zoe Coulson-Sinclair as New Zealand’s next Ambassador to Turkey. “Aotearoa New Zealand and Turkey’s relationship is one of mutual respect and underpinned by our shared Gallipoli experience,” Nanaia Mahuta said. “Turkey is also a generous ANZAC Day host and has ...
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    3 days ago
  • Announcement of new Consul-General in Guangzhou
    Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta today announced the appointment of Rachel Crump as New Zealand’s next Consul-General in Guangzhou, China. “China is one of Aotearoa New Zealand’s most significant relationships – it is our largest trading partner, and an influential regional and global actor,” Nanaia Mahuta said. “As the capital of ...
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    3 days ago
  • Government marks International Day of Persons with Disabilities
    The Government joins the disabled community of Aotearoa New Zealand in marking and celebrating the International Day of Persons with Disabilities, Minister for Disabilty Issues Carmel Sepuloni said. The theme for this year’s International Day of Persons with Disabilities is “Leadership and participation of persons with disabilities toward an inclusive, ...
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    3 days ago
  • Deputy Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security, and Advisory panel member appointed
    Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has announced the appointments of Graeme Speden as the Deputy Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security, and Ben Bateman as a member of the Inspector-General’s Advisory Panel.  “These are significant roles that assist the Inspector-General with independent oversight of New Zealand’s intelligence agencies,” Jacinda Ardern said. “While ...
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    3 days ago
  • Five million COVID-19 tests processed
    Associate Minister of Health, Dr Ayesha Verrall has congratulated testing teams right around New Zealand for reaching the five million tests milestone. Today, an additional 31,780 tests were processed, taking the total since the beginning of the pandemic in 2020 to 5,005,959. “This really is an incredible and sustained team ...
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    3 days ago
  • Funding for extra ICU capacity
    Care for the sickest New Zealanders is getting a major boost from the Government, with plans to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on expanding intensive care-type services, Health Minister Andrew Little announced today. “Through good planning, we have avoided what the COVID-19 pandemic has done in some countries, where ...
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    3 days ago
  • “THE LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL IMPLICATIONS OF NEW ZEALAND’S FIGHT AGAINST COVID.”
    Speech to the New Zealand Centre for Public Law Tēnā koutou katoa Thank you for providing this opportunity to speak with you today as Attorney General. I’m here to talk about the constitutional consequences of Covid -19. I love the law. The way it exists with the consent of the ...
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    4 days ago
  • The legal and constitutional implications of New Zealand’s fight against COVID
    Speech to the New Zealand Centre for Public Law Tēnā koutou katoa Thank you for providing this opportunity to speak with you today as Attorney General. I’m here to talk about the constitutional consequences of Covid -19. I love the law. The way it exists with the consent of the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Pharmac Review interim report released
    Health Minister Andrew Little has released an interim report by an independent panel reviewing the national pharmaceuticals-buying agency Pharmac. Pharmac was established in 1993 and is responsible for purchasing publicly funded medicines for New Zealanders, including those prescribed by GPs or administered in hospitals. The review, chaired by former Consumer ...
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    4 days ago
  • Appointment to Network for Learning board
    Former MP Clare Curran has been appointed to the board of Crown company Network for Learning (N4L), Education Minister Chris Hipkins says. Hon Clare Curran served as a Member of Parliament for Dunedin South from 2008-2010. During this time, she held a number of ministerial portfolios including Broadcasting, Communications and ...
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    4 days ago
  • Putting home ownership within reach of Pacific Aotearoa
    Pacific community groups and organisations will get tools to help them achieve home ownership with the implementation of the Ministry for Pacific Peoples (MPP) Pacific Housing Initiative, said Pacific Peoples Minister Aupito William Sio. In July 2021, MPP launched the Pacific Community Housing Provider Registration Support programme and the Pacific ...
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    4 days ago
  • Coastal shipping will help keep New Zealand’s supply chain buoyant
    Transport Minister Michael Wood today welcomed the release of the Coastal Shipping Investment Approach State-of-Play report as an important step towards a more sustainable coastal shipping sector, which will further diversify New Zealand’s supply chain. “This Government is committed to strengthening our domestic supply chain by making coastal shipping a ...
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    4 days ago
  • Response to Human Rights Commission's reports into violence towards disable people
    Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā tātou katoa.   Thank you for that introduction Hemi and thank you for inviting me to respond on behalf of Government to the release of these two important reports (Whakamanahia Te Tiriti, Whakahaumarutia te Tangata -Honour the Treaty, Protect the Person and Whakamahia te Tūkino kore ...
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    4 days ago
  • Law change strengthens petroleum decommissioning regulation
    Petroleum permit and licence holders operating in New Zealand will now have an explicit statutory requirement to carry out and fund the decommissioning of oil and gas fields after a new law was given Royal assent today, says Energy and Resources Minister Dr Megan Woods. Once in effect The Crown ...
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    5 days ago
  • New Zealand Response to assist peace and stability in Solomon Islands
    The New Zealand government has announced that it will deploy Defence Force and Police personnel to Honiara to help restore peace and stability. “New Zealand is committed to its responsibilities and playing its part in upholding regional security,” Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said.  “We are deeply concerned by the recent ...
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    5 days ago
  • Continued growth in volume of new home consents
    In the year ended October 2021, 47,715 new homes were consented, up 26 per cent from the October 2020 year. In October 2021, 4,043 new dwellings were consented Canterbury’s new homes consented numbers rose 31% to higher than post-earthquake peak. New home consents continue to reach remarkable levels of growth, ...
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    5 days ago
  • Saddle up for summer with cycle trail funding
    New investment will keep the best of New Zealand’s cycle trails in top condition as regions prepare to welcome back Kiwi visitors over summer and international tourists from next year. “Cycle tourism is one of the most popular ways to see the country ‘off the beaten track’ but the trails ...
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    5 days ago
  • New Zealand provides additional funding to COVAX for vaccine delivery
    Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta today announced additional funding will be provided to COVAX to support vaccine delivery in developing countries. “New Zealand remains cognisant of the dangers of COVID-19, especially as new variants continue to emerge. No one is safe from this virus until we all are and this ...
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    5 days ago
  • COVID-19 Community fund providing support for 160 organisations focused on women and girls
    Minister for Women Jan Tinetti today announced financial support will be allocated to the 160 successful applicants for the COVID-19 Community Fund, to support organisations helping women/wāhine and girls/kōtiro in Aotearoa New Zealand affected by the pandemic. “COVID-19 has had a disproportionate effect on women around the world including in ...
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    5 days ago
  • Government delivers reactivation package as Aucklanders reconnect for summer
    A new support package will help revive economic, social and cultural activities in our largest city over summer, and ensure those in hardship also get relief. The Social Development and Employment Minister Carmel Sepuloni and the Economic and Regional Development Minister Stuart Nash have announced a Reactivating Tāmaki Makaurau Auckland ...
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    5 days ago
  • Mobile services and broadband come to Chatham Islands for first time
    World class mobile and broadband services have been switched on for the 663 residents of the Chatham Islands, Minister for the Digital Economy and Communications, David Clark and Minister for Economic and Regional Development, Stuart Nash announced today. “This eagerly awaited network will provide fast broadband and mobile services to ...
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    5 days ago
  • Crown accounts reflect strong economy amid pandemic
    The Government’s financial accounts continue to reflect an economy that has performed better than expected, despite the latest Delta COVID-19 outbreak. The Crown accounts for the four months to the end of October factors in the improved starting position for the new financial year. Core Crown tax revenue was $2.5 ...
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    5 days ago
  • Applications open for new 2021 Resident Visa
    The first round of applications for New Zealand’s new 2021 Resident visa open today (6am). “This one-off pathway provides certainty for a great many migrant families who have faced disruption because of COVID-19 and it will help retain the skills New Zealand businesses need to support the economic recovery,” Minister ...
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    5 days ago
  • More Vietnam Veterans to receive compensation for Agent Orange Exposure
    Minister for Veterans, the Hon Meka Whaitiri announced today that two new conditions associated with Agent Orange exposure have been added to the Prescribed Conditions List. Under the 2006 Memorandum of Understanding signed between the Crown and representatives of Vietnam veterans and the Royal New Zealand RSA. Vietnam veterans in ...
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    6 days ago
  • Government commits to international effort to ban and regulate killer robots
    Minister of Disarmament and Arms Control Phil Twyford announced today that New Zealand will push for new international law to ban and regulate autonomous weapons systems (AWS), which once activated can select and engage targets without further human intervention. “While the evidence suggests fully autonomous weapons systems are not yet ...
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    6 days ago
  • New freedom camping rules – right vehicle, right place
    Tougher freedom camping laws will be introduced to prevent abuse which has placed an unfair burden on small communities and damaged our reputation as a high quality visitor destination. Tourism Minister Stuart Nash has confirmed that new legislation will be introduced to Parliament following an extensive round of public consultation ...
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    6 days ago
  • Government invests to support a classic Kiwi summer
    Vaccinated New Zealanders can look forward to Kiwi summer events with confidence, while artists and crew will have more certainty, following the launch of details of the Arts and Culture Event Support Scheme, Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Carmel Sepuloni announced today. “The Government recognises that the arts and ...
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    6 days ago
  • Grace period for expired driver licences cruises into 2022
    Due to the ongoing Delta outbreak and extended lockdowns, all New Zealand driver licences and licence endorsements that expired on or after 21 July 2021 will now be valid until 31 May 2022, Transport Minister Michael Wood announced today. “This further extension to the validity of driver licenses recognises that ...
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    6 days ago
  • Delivered: 1,000 extra transitional homes
    A further 1,000 transitional homes delivered  New housing development starts in Flaxmere, Hastings  The Government has delivered the next 1,000 transitional housing places it promised, as part of its work to reduce homelessness. Housing Minister Dr Megan Woods is marking the milestone in Hastings at a new development that includes ...
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    6 days ago
  • Traffic light levels announced
    The levels at which different parts of New Zealand will move forward into the COVID-19 Protection Framework this Friday have been announced. Northland, Auckland, Taupō and Rotorua Lakes Districts, Kawerau, Whakatane, Ōpōtiki Districts, Gisborne District, Wairoa District, Rangitikei, Whanganui and Ruapehu Districts will move in at Red The rest of ...
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    7 days ago
  • Financial support to move to traffic light system
    A new transition payment will be made available particularly for affected businesses in Auckland, Waikato and Northland to acknowledge the restrictions they have faced under the higher Alert Levels. Transition payment of up to $24,000 as businesses move into traffic light system Leave Support Scheme and Short Term Absence Payment ...
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    7 days ago
  • New Ambassador to Russia announced
    Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta today announced the appointment of Sarah Walsh as New Zealand’s next Ambassador to Russia. “Aotearoa New Zealand and Russia have a long-standing relationship, engaging on a range of regional and global interests including disarmament and Antarctica issues. We also work together as members of the East ...
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    1 week ago
  • New Permanent Representative to the UN announced
    Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta today announced the appointment of Carolyn Schwalger as Permanent Representative to the New Zealand Permanent Mission to the United Nations in New York. “Aotearoa New Zealand is a founding member of the UN and we have worked hard to ensure our stance on human rights, ...
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    1 week ago
  • Further COVID-19 economic support for Cook Islands and Fiji announced
    Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta today announced a further package of support for the Cook Islands and Fiji for COVID-19 economic support and recovery. “Aotearoa New Zealand remains committed to supporting our Pacific fanau and vuvale to respond to the impacts of COVID-19 on their economies, and move towards long-term ...
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    1 week ago
  • New law will clear the air for tamariki in vehicles
    From today, it’s illegal to smoke or vape in most vehicles carrying children aged under 18 years old - whether the vehicle is moving or not. “Second-hand smoke poses an unacceptable risk to our tamariki and rangatahi,” Associate Minister of Health Dr Ayesha Verrall said. “We know children in vehicles ...
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    1 week ago
  • Nine countries designated very high risk
    Nine southern African countries are being added to the very high risk countries list following public health advice around the newly discovered COVID-19 variant Omicron, COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins said. This afternoon, a public health risk assessment was carried out to assess the emerging evidence and any risk to ...
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    1 week ago
  • Foreign Affairs Minister concludes final stage of world trip
    Foreign Affairs Minister Hon Nanaia Mahuta today departed North America to return home to Aotearoa, concluding the last stage of her 17-day world trip. The final leg of her trip saw her visit the United States of America and Canada for a number of high-level discussions. While in Washington D.C., ...
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    1 week ago
  • Milestone launch of Pacific Languages Unit
    Today’s official launch of the Pacific Languages Unit is a milestone for our Pacific communities, the Minister for Pacific Peoples, Aupito William Sio said. The Pacific Languages Unit brings together a new set of language supports within the Ministry for Pacific Peoples to provide advice, commission research, maintain standards, promote ...
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    1 week ago