web analytics

Clawback

Written By: - Date published: 6:44 pm, March 23rd, 2009 - 39 comments
Categories: same old national, workers' rights - Tags:

That’s John Key speaking about Labour’s new fourth week of leave legislation back when the Nats thought they were going to win in 2005.

His plan was to take your fourth week off you before it started happening in 2007 because that way you wouldn’t miss it.

Now they’re trying plan “b” – put your fourth week up for sale. That’s because they figure if they can get you back to being used to a three week leave entitlement then it’ll be easier to get rid of it altogether down the line.

And don’t be fooled by his claim it will only happen if the worker wants it to. There are plenty of other labour laws, like the right to join a union, that are breached by employers pressuring workers all the time. But unless a worker has clear evidence of that pressure and is either in a union or wealthy enough to engage a lawyer they just have to suck it up.

Don’t think for a second that National doesn’t know that.

39 comments on “Clawback ”

  1. gingercrush 1

    You’re wrong but that’s what would be expected really so in good news Section 92 is gone and a great policy where if you voluntary pay debt off your student loan above the minimum you will get a 10% discount.

    IrishBill:That’s your rebuttal?

    • Felix 1.1

      I know you are you said you are but what am I?

      • Pascal's bookie 1.1.1

        …but what am I?

        I’m rubber and you’re glue , what bounces off me, sticks to you.

    • gingercrush 1.2

      Well what is there to rebut. Issues around employment laws are probably the most ideological and the obvious difference between a left and right voter. The left would like to see employment law tightened in favour of the employee as they see the relationship between employee and employer as unequal. Thus they are always opposed at moves by the right that limit or deny it. The right supports employment law that gives employers more choice and therefore will tighten the law around unionism and support legislation that gives employers a choice as in the 90 day probation period. The right either sees the employee and the employer as being equal while the left would argue that the right is merely in the game for businesses.

      Its why if you look at the left blogs they all argue that changes to four weeks holiday is a bad thing while the right supports such changes. Neither side backs down, neither side is willing to look at other points of view. Hence why even though I strongly disagree with you I thought why bother.

      The strange thing is that for most centrist voters employment laws are largely irrelevant and is certainly not something they think about when casting their vote. Instead its left to the right and the left to argue about it.

      • Chris G 1.2.1

        Look without sounding like I’m trying to flame war GC, because I respect your input. However, sweeping generalisations about sectors of NZ was apparently something you found very annoying Here

        How do you know centrist voters disregard employment policy? Most people are employed… me speculating thinks that surely a chunk of these people might have some interest in the nature of their employment and that its not simply left to the political groupies to tussle about.

  2. IrishBill 2

    I recommend readers check out the whole one news clip rather than the edited youtube one as well. It includes the statehouse line and Key claiming he would keep the Cullen fund.

  3. John Dalley 3

    About now, those swinging voters that believed the bull that it was “time for a change” will be thinking they are starting to be screwed.

  4. Monty 4

    You socialists just do not get it – This is about choice. I have presently accumulated five weeks leaveand by the end of the year I will have another three weeks added to that total. I simply do not require more than three weeks leave – I use my leave very carefully and would appreciate the ability to get a little additional cash at the year end to help with the costs over the Christmas break. But Labour’s Nanny state did not want to offer choice. They want to control every aspect of the lives of the workers.

    Although I earn more than most – A little bit of extra money is always useful. I know many of my friends who would also like the opportunity to have a little top up from time to time. But then Labour never want intelligent employees to be able to negotiate with their employer for such a condition – your lot want to box everyone into a one size fits all scenario (and no doubt have the union declare what should or should not work on the basis of what Labour / Unions want in the work place.

    I imagine there are many factory workers or cleaners that would gladly sacrifice a week of leave to have a cash top up – it might be just the thing during a minor cash crisis to help pay a dental bill or a high winter electricity bill – but that would involve giving freedom of choice and Labour / Unions would just hate that.

    • Kevin Welsh 4.1

      Nice one Monty.

      Those bloody socialists again, forcing that extra weeks annual leave on you, the hourly rate, the sick pay, the fact that you work under a contract in the first place when you would much rather just turn up each day with the rest of the crowd and hope you get picked to work that day for a pittance.

      People like you make me sick. You enjoy all the benefits those socialists have won for you and then turn around and slag them off.

    • RedLogix 4.2

      Monty,

      Choice only exists when you have the equal option to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to something.

      You and I probably enjoy a relatively strong, equal relationship with our employers, so I can understand that you see a valid choice here. But many, many employees will NOT have the option to say ‘no’… they will be put under various forms of pressure to ‘sell’ their extra week, whether they like it or not.

      That will not be the kind of ‘choice’ you have in mind. If you think otherwise, I suggest you try your hand at a few minimum wage jobs for a while, you might learn a thing or two. Think about what it is to work a 10 hour day, cooking 200 meals, in a badly ventilated kitchen with the thermometer hovering around 48degC…. all for about $15/hr.

      That’s how one of my tenants earns his living. This guy cannot even get a proper fan installed in his workplace, what chance of holding onto his 4th week of leave?

      • Monty 4.2.1

        But who the hell are you or or union to dictate to every single worker whether or not you may or may not talk to your boss about the extra weeks annual leave. Hell until the 4 weeks leave was drawn up most if not all the workers you are talking about had three weeks leave – now they have choice of 3 witha little extra cash or 4 weeks, There may be some employers who are difficult – but they will be in the small minority – and would probably treat their workers bad regardless.

        But you socialists continue to fit all into the same box. You fools.

        • Tane 4.2.1.1

          Why not make it so that all four weeks can be traded? And let employers and employees negotiate the level of the minimum wage? Why not let workers trade in their health and safety equipment for a higher wage?

          The reason we have minimum standards of employment in this country is to make sure these standards exist in practice and so that no one is unduly pressured to give them away.

          It’s also because only a party that was intent on undermining and ultimately abandoning the fourth week would suggest selling it. This is the thin end of the wedge – next recession it’ll be the fourth week’s leave that no one uses any more that gets the chop.

          I imagine it’ll also reduce pressure on employers to raise wages. “Gee, it’s tough out there at the moment. How about instead of a wage increase this year you trade in your annual leave?”

  5. Bill 5

    I imagine there are many factory workers or cleaners that would gladly sacrifice a week of leave to have a cash top up – it might be just the thing during a minor cash crisis to help pay a dental bill or a high winter electricity bill…

    That would be gladly, born out of desperation. Bollox to that. Decent wages would be gladly accepted though. Decent enough to allow enjoyment of four weeks annual leave as well as pay the dentist and the electricity without going into hoc.

  6. Monty 6

    But Bill – we are not talking about decent wages – we are talking about an employee having choice to cash in a weeks leave – they are actually two different issues – but you socialists try and cloud the issue of course.

    But answer the question what is wrong with a worker discussing and agreeing with his / her boss to cash up a week of leave if both are happy and willing for this to happen?

    The worker gets some money and is happy – the boss can get a week worth of productivity and is happy – win win for both – and freedom of choice

    • Draco T Bastard 6.1

      No, they aren’t two different issues. The only reason why anyone would cash up the extra week is because they can’t actually afford it.

      • RedLogix 6.1.1

        But answer the question what is wrong with a worker discussing and agreeing with his / her boss to cash up a week of leave if both are happy and willing for this to happen?

        Again you assume an equal employer/employee relationship, in which the worker has the unencumbered choice to say yes or no. Your argument vaporises if that choice does not exist.

        • Monty 6.1.1.1

          Workers in NZ are not indentured to their place of employment – they should have choice – and the law can protect them – workers should not be forced to give up their week of leave if they don’t want to. Hell the union might finally be useful and fight for the worker that has an unreasonable boss – but why one box fits all solution that you want . Maybe the law could be changed to allow just those rich pricks on over $60k to cash up their extra week.

          What if the tables were turned – what if the worker wanted to cash up his / her extra week and the boss said no – would that be acceptable? No this is about mutual agreement if I understand the proposal.

          • RedLogix 6.1.1.1.1

            Hell the union might finally be useful and fight for the worker that has an unreasonable boss

            Well only about 18% of workers in NZ are actually covered by a union… sucks boo to the other 82% eh!

            What if the tables were turned – what if the worker wanted to cash up his / her extra week and the boss said no – would that be acceptable?

            No you’ve only pretended to turn the table. Imagine if an unreasonable union forced an unwilling employer to pay the extra week out. Would THAT be acceptable?

            Didn’t think so.

      • Monty 6.1.2

        Again you show deliberate ignorance only a lefty could possibly show. A Worker might cash up my leave for a variety of reasons including wanting to purchase a TV without debt or HP, or because he / she wants to be rid of excessive accumulated leave, or to put more money in the bank to put aside for a rainy day. Any number of reasons. Again the left show their true arrogance by thinking they speak for all.

        • IrishBill 6.1.2.1

          And again you show the arrogance of the right by assuming pretending everyone has the protections you enjoy due to your privilege.

        • RedLogix 6.1.2.2

          No Monty, the mantra ‘freedom of choice’ does not trump every debate. What you are imagining as liberty, is in reality the deepest form of slavery… the state of being subject to every ungoverned whim of those more powerful than yourself.

          Society puts in place many rules, that may limit freedom of action for some individuals, but are of a far greater benefit to the whole community. For instance, the law takes away your freedom of choice about which side of the road you drive on, in return, you gain the far greater freedom of being able to actually use the roads in relative safety.

          Much employment law is based on a similar principle. It recognises that the employer/employee relationship is inherently an unequal one, characterised by an asymmetry of information and power that if left unchecked would rapidly reduce most working people back to that state of ‘indentured serfdom’ you so fondly imagine could not exist.

          The law removes part of that unfettered, unequal power, and replaces it with limits, norms and the notion of ‘good faith’. In return, the whole of society has historically benefited, unshackling the chains of once impoverished legions of servants, serfs and slaves, enabling them to gradually transform into something like a prosperous middle class.

          Of course these laws that protect us from rapacious employers/lords of the manor were not written freely. Our grandfathers, and before, fought long hard battles for these rights. But to appropriate an old aphorism, the first generation fights and builds the empire, the second enjoys and runs it… and the third pisses it up against a wall. (All in the name of freedom of choice no doubt.)

          • Pascal's bookie 6.1.2.2.1

            Anyone else noted how many (most?) rightwingers these days don’t give a flying figuration about why our society (another word they hate), came to be doing so many of the things it does? Why are these things in place? Did our ancestors have their reasons for instituting our institutions? Might they have known a thing or two about what things were like without a thing or two?

            Conservatives? My arse they are.

  7. Macro 7

    So let me get this straight. If I “choose” to cash up my 4th week of leave and work instead – I get my holiday pay AND the wages for the 4th week?
    NO! So why would I choose to work?? Or am I missing something here?
    As you might guess I’m one of the idle rich and not actually entitled to any leave.

    • IrishBill 7.1

      The government hasn’t said you’ll get double wages for the week you work. I suspect that will be another matter to be decided between workers and employers. Of course workers surely wouldn’t “choose” to sell their week for less than that but if they do it will clearly be their “choice”.

  8. mike 8

    What do you socialists have against people being able to make a grown up choice for themselves.
    Not content with criminalising parents or legislating lunchboxes you have to try and tell people what they can or cannot do with “their” holidays.

    • RedLogix 8.1

      Mike,

      Discussing something with some righties gets like this Monty Python scene. At some point you just have to step over the still defiant, but impotently writhing corpse and walk away.

    • Tane 8.2

      I’m more concerned about mean-arse bosses like you trying to tell them what to do with their holidays Mike.

      Face it, it’s not the Government telling people what to do that you’re afraid of. It’s the Government empowering people so you can’t tell them what to do that scares you.

  9. [lprent: banned troll – deleted]

  10. Julie 10

    Seems to me that this yet another way that John Key is going against his commitments to close the wage gap with Australia (which has had 4 weeks AL for ages), and save jobs.

    By allowing employers to pay out workers for a week’s leave Key’s Government is signally that this is the way to get pay rises – sure in the first year or two people will get 2% more in the pocket (at the cost of working an extra week, and all that goes with that), but I think we will spookily find that a lot of workers also end up getting about 2% less in pay increases. And that starting salaries decrease to take into account this 2%. Which is going to play a significant part in driving wages down.

    And then on the job creation front, everyone taking 4 weeks off each year (more in the cases of some with kick-arse collective agreements) creates vacancies, temporary or otherwise, which need to be covered in some way. How many jobs will be lost as a result of this one move? Probably more than will be saved by the what is it 2 companies who have showed an interest in the nine-day fortnight so far.

  11. RedLogix 11

    Its nobody’s business other than the employer/employee what time, if any, is taken off for holidays.

    Fine laudible sentiments I’m sure all hard-working, upstanding citizens would agree with. No?

    New Zealand politics is dirty and Politicians are lower than used car salesmen, real estate agents and lawyers combined. Lets face it they aint going to listen to you as an individual.

    Ever wondered why?

  12. infused 12

    This is one of those ones I just cannot see where the left are coming form. More than likely it’s going to benefit the employee. You really don’t have anything to lose.

  13. Con 13

    It’s already true that if a worker is able to bargain for a 4th or 5th of 6th week’s holiday then there’s no law stopping them. It’s just a question of the relative strength of their bargaining position vis-a-vis their employer. If the employee so chooses, and if their bargaining strength is sufficient to persuade their employer, then they can have whatever holidays they wish.

    For employees whose position is weak, they will simply lose that 4th week, whether they choose to or not. In the current market, many employees have had their bargaining positions weakened. Those in the weakest position will simply lose that extra week. But fuck them eh? They were already low paid, young, female, brown-skinned in all probability. They were never going to vote National anyway, were they?

    Even those in a slightly stronger position will be inclined to trade it in on job security, or a perception of it.

    Tane is dead right … if minimum standards can be traded in then why not trade in other “benefits” like their right to a union; their right to a minimum wage; their right to be treated fairly; health and safety standards? Why not give people the right to CHOOSE to be slaves? Why does the nanny state insist on outlawing servitude? If people choose to sell themselves into bondage that should be their right!

  14. ieuan 14

    So why isn’t anyone asking ‘why is the Minister of Tourism announcing a policy that would give people fewer holidays?’ or why do we need people to work more hours when we are in a recession and the government is pushing the 9 day fortnight?

    • Joey 14.1

      I was wondering that myself. That fourth week could provide a week’s work for another employee.

  15. rod 15

    What has the I R D got to say about 53 pay weeks in a 52 week year?

Links to post

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • Put our most vulnerable first
    Don’t forget whānau and communities most at risk, says the Green Party, as the Government lays out its three-phase plan for Omicron. ...
    13 hours ago
  • Boosting our immunity against Omicron
    With Omicron in the community, it’s vital we all do our bit to help to slow the spread, keep each other safe and protect our health system. One of the most important ways we can reduce the risk of Omicron is to get a booster dose as soon as we’re ...
    20 hours ago
  • Equitable response to Omicron vital
    The Green Party supports the Government’s decision to move Aotearoa New Zealand to traffic light level Red at 11.59pm tonight, but says its success will depend on the support that is made available to the most vulnerable. ...
    4 days ago
  • How we’re preparing for Omicron
    As countries around the world experience Omicron outbreaks, we’re taking steps now to ensure we’re as prepared as possible and our communities are protected. ...
    7 days ago
  • What’s Labour achieved so far?
    Quite a bit! This Government was elected to take on the toughest issues facing Aotearoa – and that’s what we’re doing. Since the start of the pandemic, protecting lives and livelihoods has been a priority, but we’ve also made progress on long-term challenges, to deliver a future the next generation ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Tackling the big issues in 2022
    This year, keeping Kiwis safe from COVID will remain a key priority of the Government – but we’re also pushing ahead on some of New Zealand’s biggest long-term challenges. In 2022, we’re working to get more Kiwis into homes, reduce emissions, lift children out of poverty, and ensure people get ...
    2 weeks ago

  • Government announces three phase public health response to Omicron
    Reducing isolation period for cases and close contacts at Phase Two and Three to 10 and seven days Definition of close contact required to isolate changes to household or household like contacts at Phase Three Increased use of rapid antigen tests with test to return policy put in place for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    17 hours ago
  • New Ambassador to Thailand announced
    Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta today announced the appointment of Jonathan Kings as New Zealand’s next Ambassador to Thailand. “Aotearoa New Zealand has a long-standing relationship with Thailand, celebrating the 65th anniversary of diplomatic representation between our countries in 2021. We also share much in common at regional and multilateral levels ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    20 hours ago
  • Government’s Family Package continues to deliver for New Zealanders
    The Families Package helped around 330,000 families in its first year - more than half of all families with children in NZ These families received an estimated $55 per week more from Families Package payments in 2018/19 than in 2017/18, on average Families Package increases to the maximum possible Accommodation ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    21 hours ago
  • New Zealand retains top spot in global anti-corruption rankings
    Justice Minister Kris Faafoi has welcomed news of New Zealand’s ongoing position as top in the world anti-corruption rankings. The 2021 Corruption Perceptions Index released by global anti-corruption organisation, Transparency International, ranks New Zealand first equal with Denmark and Finland, with a score of 88 out of 100. “This is an ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Testing improvements see New Zealand well prepared for Omicron
    New Zealand’s PCR testing capacity can be increased by nearly 20,000 tests per day to deal with a surge in cases as part of our wider COVID-19 testing strategy, Associate Minister of Health Dr Ayesha Verrall said. “We have continued to adapt our public health response to safeguard the health ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • 5,000 portable air cleaners for schools on their way
    As schools are preparing to return, Education Minister Chris Hipkins has announced 5,000 air cleaners have been ordered for New Zealand schools. “As we know, along with vaccination, testing, good hygiene and physical distancing, good ventilation is important in minimising the risk of airborne transmission of the virus that causes ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New Zealand to move to Red from 11.59pm today
    All of New Zealand will move to the Red setting of the Covid Protection Framework (CPF) at 11:59pm today as Omicron is potentially now transmitting in the community, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern says. “Nine COVID-19 cases reported yesterday in the Nelson/Marlborough region are now confirmed as Omicron, and a further ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Mandatory boosters for key workforces progressing well
    More than 5,785 (82%) border workers eligible for a booster vaccination at 6 months have received it so far, COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins says. “That’s a really strong uptake considering we announced the requirement the week before Christmas, but we need to continue this momentum,” Chris Hipkins said. “We ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • NZ to move to Red
    Nine COVID-19 cases reported yesterday in the Nelson/Marlborough region have now been confirmed as the Omicron variant, and a further case from the same household was confirmed late yesterday. These cases are in a single family that flew to Auckland on 13 January to attend a wedding and other events ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New Zealand to provide further help for Tonga
    Aotearoa New Zealand is giving an additional $2 million in humanitarian funding for Tonga as the country recovers from a volcanic eruption and tsunami last weekend, Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta and Defence Minister Peeni Henare said today. This brings Aotearoa New Zealand’s contribution to $3 million. “This support will ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Quarterly benefit numbers show highest number of exits into work
    The Government’s strong focus on supporting more people into work is reflected in benefit figures released today which show a year-on-year fall of around 21,300 people receiving a main benefit in the December 2021 quarter, Minister for Social Development and Employment Carmel Sepuloni said. “Our response to COVID has helped ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Northland to move to Orange, NZ prepared for Omicron 
    Northland to move to Orange Rest of New Zealand stays at Orange in preparedness for Omicron All of New Zealand to move into Red in the event of Omicron community outbreak – no use of lockdowns Govt planning well advanced – new case management, close contact definition and testing rules ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • RNZAF C-130 Hercules flight departs for Tonga as Navy vessels draw nearer to Tongatapu
    A Royal New Zealand Air Force C-130 Hercules has departed Base Auckland Whenuapai for Tonga carrying aid supplies, as the New Zealand aid effort ramps up, Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta and Defence Minister Peeni Henare said today. “The aircraft is carrying humanitarian aid and disaster relief supplies, including water ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • New Zealand prepared to send support to Tonga
    New Zealand is ready to assist Tonga in its recovery from Saturday night’s undersea eruption and tsunami, Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta and Defence Minister Peeni Henare said today. “Following the successful surveillance and reconnaissance flight of a New Zealand P-3K2 Orion on Monday, imagery and details have been sent ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Aotearoa New Zealand stands ready to assist people of Tonga
    The thoughts of New Zealanders are with the people of Tonga following yesterday’s undersea volcanic eruption and subsequent tsunami waves, Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta says. “Damage assessments are under way and New Zealand has formally offered to provide assistance to Tonga,” said Nanaia Mahuta. New Zealand has made an ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Record high of new homes consented continues
    In the year ended November 2021, 48,522 new homes were consented, up 26 per cent from the November 2020 year. In November 2021, 4,688 new dwellings were consented. Auckland’s new homes consented numbers rose 25 per cent in the last year. Annual figures for the last nine months show more ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Report trumpets scope for ice cream exports
    Latest research into our premium ice cream industry suggests exporters could find new buyers in valuable overseas markets as consumers increasingly look for tip top quality in food. Economic Development Minister Stuart Nash has released a new report for the Food and Beverage Information Project. The project is run by ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Honouring the legacy of legendary kaumātua Muriwai Ihakara
    Associate Minister for Arts, Culture, and Heritage Kiri Allan expressed her great sadness and deepest condolences at the passing of esteemed kaumātua, Muriwai Ihakara. “Muriwai’s passing is not only a loss for the wider creative sector but for all of Aotearoa New Zealand. The country has lost a much beloved ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Have your say on proposed changes to make drinking water safer
    Associate Minister for the Environment Kiri Allan is urging all New Zealanders to give feedback on proposed changes aimed at making drinking water safer. “The current regulations are not fit for purpose and don’t offer enough protection, particularly for those whose water comes from smaller supplies,” Kiri Allan said. “This ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Planting the seeds for rewarding careers
    A boost in funding for a number of Jobs for Nature initiatives across Canterbury will provide sustainable employment opportunities for more than 70 people, Conservation Minister Kiri Allan says. “The six projects are diverse, ranging from establishing coastline trapping in Kaikōura, to setting up a native plant nursery, restoration planting ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago
  • New Zealand congratulates Tonga's new Prime Minister on appointment
    Minister of Foreign Affairs Nanaia Mahuta today congratulated Hon Hu'akavameiliku Siaosi Sovaleni on being appointed Prime Minister of the Kingdom of Tonga. “Aotearoa New Zealand and Tonga have an enduring bond and the Kingdom is one of our closest neighbours in the Pacific. We look forward to working with Prime ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago