- Date published:
8:25 am, October 10th, 2016 - 235 comments
Categories: Abuse of power, accountability, class war, Hillary Clinton, International, Politics, us politics, you couldn't make this shit up - Tags: debate, donald trump, hillary clinton, obama
The second of three Presidential debates kicks off at 2PM NZ time.
The format is different this time, it’s more of a town hall style meeting with a combination of set questions from the moderators (ABC’s Martha Raddatz and CNN’s Anderson Cooper) and random impertinences from the audience.
Hillary Clinton is more in her element at these kind of events. A good listener, with a good grasp of issues, she can be relied on to come across as sympathetic and engaged. Donald Trump is far more used to deference and brown-nosing from the people he meets, not testing questions on the issues of the day. As a notoriously shouty bully, he’ll have to find a way to tone down his overbearing nature, while at the same time rehabilitating his tattered reputation.
If, as has been rumoured, he tries to deflect from his own sexism by pushing fantasies about Hillary Clinton’s hubby, he’ll go down in flames. The desperate right have tried floating the ‘Bill as rapist’ meme over the weekend, but it hasn’t stuck. Mainly because of the lack of evidence, but also because Bill Clinton is still more popular than either Hillary or the Donald.
This sort of attack generally fails, as anyone who has tried to point out John Key’s many faults over the last 8 years can attest.
So it should be a fascinating contest. Hillary has the election in the bag and the calls to dump Trump will only grow louder if he doesn’t ‘win’ this debate hands down. It could be that there won’t need to be a third debate or if it’s held it’ll be Clinton vs Pence.
Today’s bout is live on TVNZ’s Duke channel and I believe they will be streaming it via their website, here.
And here’s a taste of what it might look like:
UPDATE: Obama nails Trump’s tiny insecurity issue.
UPDATE 2: Live Stream
best twitter quote of yesterday: “Hey, Republicans, how does it feel to be forced to carry something to term?”
So that would make it Clintons to lose
We’re still in the first half of October, many more ‘October Surprises’ to come yet.
If we’re referencing SNL skits, I found this a fascinating investigation of the evolution of the percieved Hillary over the years. The presenter is mainly a film reviewer, but that gives a refreshing (if not quite apolitical) perspective too:
As long as its not like the last snore fest
I have a feeling we are about to descend in this debate – ‘ground floor – smears, lies and insinuations and some shouting’
Agree. I get the feeling though that Clinton will remain calm while nonetheless hitting low, but true, blows. Trump will be brash and hit low, mostly untrue, blows.
Yes, Clinton will run her team’s series of well calculated personal barbs to rile Trump up.
Trump has a simple job today – stay Presidential – and keep reminding the country over and over – if you want the corrupt, rigged and wasteful Clinton/Obama status quo in D.C. gone, then Donald J Trump going to fix things fast.
The problem is he has no lines now – they’ve been tried and found wanting. All he’s got is attack, any other strategy will be too inauthentic.
Yes Trump’s lines have been found wanting by the MSM and the commentariat.
Trump has consistently failed to break through his 40% ceiling, on average, in the main polls. It’s pretty obvious that, in addition to the “MSM and the commentariat”, about 60% of likely voters also think Trump is garbage.
You say; “Trump has a simple job today – stay Presidential”, when has he ever been; “Presidential”in the first place?
“Donald J Trump going to fix things fast.”
You’re dreaming Colonial Viper, Trump is corrupt, rigged and wasteful, he can’t even fix himself.
+ 1 Yay another thing we agree on – onya leftie
🙂 Marty Mars. Although we don’t see eye to eye re: Maori party, but believe me, we are most definitely on the same page with most other things.
That’s the main thing.
Hillary sold the office of Sec of State, lied to Congress and defied a Congressional subpoena, and after all of this it’s no surprise that all her senior staffers needed immunity from prosecution agreements with the FBI.
Mind you, those small details may not matter at this point.
Hillary behaves like a politician. Trump behaves like a sociopath. Is that really ok with you CV?
“Hillary behaves like a politician.”
Correct. Hillary talks, acts and moves like the consumate D.C. professional that she is.
Leftie: “Trump is corrupt, rigged and wasteful, he can’t even fix himself.
And you know this….how?
I’m still calling an easy win for Trump. Let’s see. It still depends on how sick to the back teeth the American people are of the DC elite and the current kleptocratic status quo.
So what is trump going to change.
Nothing CV which creepy clown wins
At the end of the day I am realistic enough to realise that the Deep State i.e. a dangerous combo of the security state, Wall St and big corporations, runs the USA, and that the person in the Oval Office has somewhat limited influence one way or the other.
Yep, It doesn’t matter how fed up the public is with the Washington establishment if they don’t see a viable alternative to it in Trump.
The thing I’ll be looking for is not something that comes out of the mouths of the candidates, but the facial and audible reactions of the audience. The average undecided voter is going to be swayed a lot more by what they see in the crowd than what they see on the stage.
Last time I watched most of the debate on mute in the background (mainly because I had other stuff to do, but also because it was a bit tedious when I did have the sound up). I imagine I’ll do the same with this one too.
One of the most revealing things is to watch the opponents face when the other candidate is speaking. However, as Phil says, it’ll be good to see the; “facial and audible reactions of the audience”, too (there wasn’t much of that last time, but with the “town hall” format that is likely to change).
I agree with The Extremist as far as he goes, but I also expect a lot more premeditation from the Clinton team while Trump will be unprepared and talk randomly according to his whims. I read a piece the other day (I thought on Salon, but couldn’t see it there today and my browser deletes history when I close it so somewhere on a USAn political site is the best reference I can give), which was a case lawyer examining the Clinton campaign tactics. The takeaway was that Clinton’s team seem to have prepared points to insert into each debate to set up later revelations. EG Clinton ties Trump and misogyny together (or at least reinforces that impression) in the first debate, Kaines gets Pence to deny the chharge in the VP debate, then a recording featuring JEB’s cousin surfaces to confirm Trump’s loathsomeness. Personally, I think there was a fair bit of luck involved too – but it is said that fortune favours those prepared to take advantage of it.
Clinton has, by her own admission “both a public and a private position” on things like the banks.
So I suspect, and many claim to know, that she also has “both a public and private position” on women.
Just ask any of Bills past and present* women. (*according to Collin Powell) .
No one in this debate can claim the high ground on ‘Truth’.
“So I suspect, and many claim to know, that she also has “both a public and private position” on women.”
Yeah there’s no evidence for that.
“No one in this debate can claim the high ground on ‘Truth’.”
That I agree with
You mean apart from her own words?
Instead of quote-mining why don’t you respond what I actually wrote and try again, son.
“Try again, son.”
LOL come on mate, I don’t report to dickheads like you.
So you can’t actually respond to what I actually wrote and will only respond to comments I didn’t make.
The intellectual dishonesty is strong with you
Clinton has, by her own admission “both a public and a private position” on things like the banks.
So I suspect, and many claim to know, that she also has “both a public and private position” on women.
That’s a logical fallacy.
And, so what?
Yup, ready to go.
Alec Baldwin nailed it on Saturday night live, Clintons laughing all the way to the white house.
Looks like Trumps been outed as the perverse creep he appears to be. Got creepy for me when I hear he mentioned his daughter as voluptuous.., really? that’s your daughter.
The only time I’d mention the word “voluptuous” and “my daughter” in the same sentence would have also included “thinking of”, “if you do”, and “shotgun death”.
Alec Baldwins Trumps damn good though. Who agrees?
Trump looks like a person easily rattled and who easily loses it.
Clinton has all the cards, she’s a woman, he has little respect for women, so all she needs to do is argue, and click a few buttons and Trump will disintegrate in front of live TV.
All she needs do is needle him..
Hey of course no one wants Trump, but Hillary has no moral high ground in this debate.
She has supported and defended her husband in his numerous dodgy sexual exploits. So let’s not ride any high horses in regards to Hillary, she has proved that she is just as capable of exploiting humans for her own ends as much as the next rich capitalist.
If Trump’s team didn’t complete a full opposition research exercise on Trump six months ago, he’s going to be in for a very interesting ride in the next couple of weeks from the Clinton/MSM smear machine.
What you call “smear machine” is really just “What Trump actually said”
+ 1 hard to imagine any coherent response to that truth.
The Republicans were once content to let Trump use their own smear machine that has been set on Hillary for many a year. Unfortunately for him, user error has led to the wheels falling off and now he is left to sling shit by himself.
You mean recordings of Trump which have been saved for 11 years and then dropped across the media 2 days before the Presidential debate?
Yes, what Trump actually said.
Trump provided the bullet, certainly, but someone pointed the gun and pulled the trigger.
Interesting though, I think Clinton is only going to mention the recording very obliquely and not say anything too specific about the recording or the contents itself.
Part of the game.
So not a smear, Trump’s actual words and behaviour being shown the sunlight.
Unlike your laughably false accusations last night which were actual smears.
A smear machine needs something to work with, and Trump has provided the Clinton smear machine with some big tasty bullets by the sounds of it.
So not a smear, Trump’s actual words and behaviour being shown the sunlight.
Mate whatever she does you’ll have some angle on it that confirms what you already believe.
Well yes that is true 11 years ago, and by all accounts still at it!
It is the profound hubris of the man and his unrepentant attitude that still pervades him. He is just as likely to start groping and attempting to rape any woman he comes across from here on in as he was then! What has he done to address the disgusting remarks he has made towards women in the recent past? Nothing! He is a misogynist through and through, and proud of it! How his current wife must feel one has to wonder – but I guess, like Hillary, she will stick by her man.
How he can ever be considered to be fit for the office of President boggles the mind.
Yip, I’m a bit surprised it took this long for that stuff to come out. Why wasn’t it during the primaries, or much earlier in the campaign?
But, that doesn’t change what he said. I see that your approach to this is just to evade that point, that Trump admits he routinely practices sexual assault.
Turns out that when Trump came to NZ in 1993, he gave an interview where he said it was a good thing he didn’t need to run for political office, because of his views on women: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/85155867/trump-ghost-from-the-past-resurfaces-in-new-zealand
So even he thinks he isn’t qualified, yet you do?
what were you qualified to do in 1993, Lanth?
I can tell you one thing – in 1993 I wouldn’t have disqualified myself from anything because of my behavior which Trump seems to be doing
I was qualified to go to primary school.
Not sure what that has to do with why you think he’s qualified to be president, when he himself said he wouldn’t be due to his attitudes to women.
Hi CV. I know it’s a case of ‘que sera, sera’ with this election, but have these latest skeletons in Trump’s cupboard changed your confidence in the final outcome?
Strikes me Trump will have to come firing confidently on all cylinders this arfo, and I don’t really think he’s up to it.
Help – where’s the edit facility gone ?
Missing for me as well
There seem to be a couple of issues at the moment, Garibaldi. No idea what’s causing it, but no doubt LPrent will attend to it when he can.
Shit – that was there yesterday. I used it.
A pile of the plugins turned off ?
Looking at logs.
It’s looking critically bad for the Don I admit, and Hillary is by far the more experienced and prepared debate performer. Still, I’m not changing my call yet.
Your call that he’s going to win with 280-290 EVs.
Basically for Trump to win, the polls all have to be seriously off. 538 have done quite a lot of analysis on how the polls could possibly be off – eg a whole lot of people who haven’t previously voted turning out for Trump. So far there’s no evidence that that is actually happening.
Indeed, and closer to 290 than to 280 is my prediction.
Yep, fully get that the polls according to Real Clear Politics and others show Trump cruising for a bruising come Nov 8.
Will Trump’s result look like the Carter vs Reagan result in 1980? Reagan got 489 vs a destroyed Carter’s 49 electoral votes.
On 538’s modelling, the most likely single outcome at the moment is Hillary getting approx 360 EVs.
You don’t think the Dem’s won’t pull out dirty tricks in the face of a close count in one or more swing states? That said I wouldn’t put it past the Repug’s either (remember 2000?).
However in this election cycle it has been the Dem’s pulling the (most publicised/leaked) dirty tricks and by all appearances are the establishment pick to rule for the next 4 years.
And what do you think Donald Trump, Bill Clinton and say … Aaron Smith … share in common? Whether Trump was talking about non-consensual assault, or merely the usual inflated sense of alpha male sexual entitlement isn’t clear from the context, but his insoluble problem now is that he’s been caught gloating about it.
And for most people that’s a vulgarity too far. It’s something they really didn’t want to hear about, and every time he tries to attack on Bill’s Clinton’s record, rightly or wrongly, it’s only going to remind people. Logically this would have been the absolute finish of any candidate other than DT.
Logically Trump’s best tactic at this point is to take the high road in the debate, but then again by nature Trump is a scrapper, so anything is possible.
Reminds me of a global marketing meeting I attended a long time ago. Two pretty senior US execs got REALLY hot with each other. All the non-Americans in the room were mortified, we thought they were literally within seconds of a bare-knuckle brawl, but a few hours later there they both were at the bar drinking and laughing like the best of mates. A lot of Americans will recognise this quality in Trump, a willingness to go all out, even dirty, to win; but very pragmatic about patching up the bumps and bruises afterwards.
If you’re not from New York you likely don’t get how New-Yorkers talk, if you’re not from the USA you likely don’t get a lot of the complex cultural clues and values on display here, and if you are a progressive liberal … Trump is just irredeemably goddamn awful. So it’s very hard for us to accurately measure what the electoral responses to all this are going to be.
Trump more than anything else has triggered the deep anti-establishment, anti-liberal sentiment live in the American electorate. Fundamentally every time the liberal establishment dumps on him, it strengthens his hand. Still the chaos election.
When you talked about the two Americans I guessed that they were from New York…they can have a very no holds barred kind of phraseology even to get ordinary points of conversation across…
you’re shitting us, you fucker CV,
[Stephanie: There’s no need for that level of pointless abuse. Consider this a warning to disagree firmly, but more sensibly, in future.]
[TM’s not the kind of commenter to use pointless abuse. I’m picking it was actually satire related to CV’s comment about how New Yorkers converse. TRP]
yes TRP, my mistake/attempt at humour, back in stealth mode now
And then you watch them eat, fork in hand with a fucking towel in their collar shoveling it down……
First time I went out to lunch with a new colleague in Wisconsin, 6’4″ and 220lb ex-military, and his petite British-Indian wife. Our burgers arrive, and she announces very loudly “This is why Americans are all fat and have big mouths”. To this day I still don’t understand how we survived that one.
Not to say all are like that but my mum often had friends from the US staying and by dog, sometimes it was like watching a toddler in a high chair eat canned spaghetti.
[Trump is] very pragmatic about patching up the bumps and bruises afterwards.
Trump has been in a decade long feud with Rosie O’Donnell. He launched into an overnight twitter tirade directed at a miss universe winner from twenty years ago. His unrepentant position on birther-ism lasted more than four years beyond Obama’s publication of his long-form birth certificate.
Trump’s only record is one of being a petulant child.
But, more importantly, his New Yorkness doesn’t, IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER excuse, or make acceptable, or make justifiable, his bragging about sexually assaulting women.
She has supported and defended her husband in his numerous dodgy sexual exploits.
Actually how do we know that for sure Adrian Thornton? Of course she supported and defended him in public. But I bet behind the scenes it was a different story. That is how most women cope with such situations and it is not for us to knock them for it. Any woman who has been in such a position – albeit in a marriage or lengthy relationship – is going to feel hurt and humiliated but the last thing they want is for there to be a public slanging match. All the more so if they are public figures.
I recall at the time of the Lewinsky affair that Hillary Clinton behaved with dignity and maturity. It is a mark in her favour… even if I do have question marks about her in a political sense.
This is true to a point if we were to consider only evangelical and Roman catholics as the true incumbents of Christianity. Fortunately there are more liberal interpretations of the the teachings of Christ which recognise that living in an unloving or abusive relationship is not a requirement for a healthy spiritual life.
lol not touching that one with a 40ft bargepole 🙂
The *public* face of Christianity in America is nothing like the example of Christ, much more like that of the Pharisees who ended up killing him.
But Christian faith in the USA is far wider than the Fox News caricature.
Do you know the name given to that which uses the name of Christ, the imagery and language of Christ and of Christianity, but whose aim, practice and intent is diametrically opposite to the wishes and example of Christ?
That’s your answer.
What Anne and what Pasupial said
.”She has supported and defended her husband in his numerous dodgy sexual exploits.”
. Hi Anne
It is so good that you have asked for facts from the strange people who say that Hillary Clinton “has supported and defended her husband in his numerous dodgy sexual exploits”.
The real problem is that a number of male and female commentators on here want Donald Trump and certainly not a woman President.
Led along expertly by the small mind of Colonial Viper, these besmirches of Hilary Clinton appear to have more than a few personal problems.
I mean, to accuse Hillary of supporting Bill Clinton’s sexual predation is about as low as you can go. It says more about the these slavish CV followers, than it does about the accomplished Hillary Clinton.
Good on you Anne. Hopefully the CV groupies on here will lift their standards above the slum level they share with each other.
CNN has dug out an interview with Trump from ’99. Back then the Donald reckoned Hillary was a good woman and Bill was the victim of a smear campaign.
“But the whole group — it’s truly an unattractive cast of characters. Linda Tripp, Lucianne Goldberg, I mean, this woman, I watch her on television. She is so bad. The whole group, Paula Jones, Lewinsky, it’s just a really unattractive group. I’m not just talking about physical.”
“I’m not just talking about physical.” Classy stuff.
I don’t have the tapes. I’ve signed a Burnett contract & know leak fee is 5 mill. Hearing from producers/crew N word is the “much worse”.
— Chris Nee (@chrisdocnee) October 9, 2016
I was talking with TRP jnr yesterday and we both thought that the next thing to come out would be Trump using the N word. It just feels inevitable, doesn’t it?
I’m personally willing to chip in to help pay the $5million fee. For the good of democracy, of course 😉
I reckon Trump models will be the end of him, literally.
Perfectly timed to maximise distruption to the *cough* composure of trump.
……through to 16
Gezz! pence is even more of a disaster than Trump! Loved this tweet in that thread.
When Indiana said “Pence must go” we didn’t mean to Washington!😸
The payoff to Kaine ,would not be pence.
Van Jones clears the boundary, the stands and into the middle of Buckle St – if Trump were black.
Joe – you might have shared the most important 13 minutes of video produced in the entire presidential campaign.
I salute you.
South Park is on point this season. Giant douche and turd sandwich.
Love the Obama video. You know, say what you like about his policies (particularly his international intervention policies) he will go down as the president with the most swag.
Obama the person is legitimately funny and generally pretty awesome. I think he’ll be remembered well in history
I really hope that you don’t mean this in the original meaning of the word “swag”.
Then it meant “stolen goods”.
I think Bill Clinton and his spending of funds from his foundation would top anything Obama could possibly have been up to.
Rely on an archaic meaning to go off with an outright lie, enabled by a simple comment about Obama’s style.
I think you’d better go file an official complaint with the cops, Alwyn – when suave was being handed out, Obama obviously stole your share (and then some).
Swag as in swagger
Yes, and I agree about Obama. I just couldn’t resist the alternative though.
Trumps guests to the debate are the woman who accused Bill Clinton of sexual assaults. Stay classy Trump…
I see this is going to be a fair debate… First question is do you set a good example for youth. Second question is a grilling from CNNs Anderson Cooper about Trumps latest sexist video. CNN winning this debate already.
There’s that sniffle she don’t lie, she don’t lie, again.
Health care ….something absolutely much less expensive…so much better….absolutely so much better…
On average, premiums have risen by about 5.8% a year since Barack Obama took office, compared to 13.2% in the nine years before Obama, Politifact found earlier this year.
And the tiny fisted fascist had nothing, no policy, nothing….sniff……
Muslims……bombs all over the apartment!…..all those people saw the bombs!…Muslims must report!!!!…..
Waaa…… she just went 25 seconds over her time…waa….drugs over the border….
Russia……I have a very good balance sheet…so good….very good balance sheet…
” I pay hundreds of millions in taxes” Yeah, right.
She’s done nothing…..affordable insurance for millions of children….health care for 9/11 first responders….national guardsmen….non-proliferation treaty with Russia…. four hundred pieces of legislation have my name on it…..
He’s pacing, busting for a pee…sniff….she don’t lie, she don’t lie…sniff………
And now he’s a fucking military strategist ….Generals…..I have Generals and Admirals….they talk to me all the time……
538 has pointed out that he does have 200 generals and admirals who have supported him.
Mitt Romney had 500.
Waa……..she goes a minute over time…..s’not fair….five seconds….you pull me up…waa
Oh wow – Trump would have been awake at 3am, implementing solutions to Benghazi while drunk-tweeting 🙂
…..the EPA is strangling our energy companies…tremendous wealth under our feet….Coal Baby!….. Coal!!…..
Actually Trump is delivering pretty well and Clinton is on the defence. Her body talk is uncomfortable. Grin is a grimace. Not a Clinton walk over. Trump may have diminished the anti-woman meme to some degree.
He is def doing better but so is Clinton. More fireworks this time than last
Some of Clinton’s smiles have looked unforced, I haven’t seen more than a smirk from Trump. I imagine that the antiwoman thread is likely to be brought up again by the end.
She did actually get a genuine smile from Trump by complimenting his family. And then turned it into a declaration of her having; “spent 30 years, actually a little more trying to help kids and families”. His praising of her for virtues he wishes to be associated with; “She doesn’t quit, she doesn’t give up. I respect that”, was weak in comparison. Definitely think she made the best of the final exchange – which with the recency effect is most likely to stick with people.
[edit. Just saw this in reactions over on the Guardian:]
The rest of it was pretty grim and murky. I’d give it to Clinton because by acting as such a swaggering bully onstage, Trump did nothing to dispel his sexual predator image. Nowhere near as clearcut as first debate though (maybe because I had the sound on this time).
There’s been some seriously strange camera work this debate. Sure the candidates have been moving around a bit, but it can’t be that difficult to simply hold focus on a static individual!
They can’t, he’s standing behind her scowling, interrupting her, stalking her on stage….much like he does to anyone he bullies I’d imagine.
Such a good description of Trump’s ghastly behaviour during the debate.
Not to mention his bad manners displaying his lack of respect for HC in that rather than use her name he referred to her continuously as “she” .
I was never allowed to use ‘she’ by my parents when growing up. “Who’s ‘she’? The cat’s mother?” my mum would say.
I never realised how gratingly denigrating that word could sound until I heard Trump today. Clinton used his name and and showed she had presence and manners if nothing else.
They say manners maketh man. Well today one could see how true that was.
There was only one ‘man’ in the debate, and it certainly wasn’t Donald.
By crikey, Trump has walked all over Hillary, telling Americans exactly what they want to hear, laying out a few shockers.
Hillary has done very well not crying
God help America. Trump will win more votes for this.
Trump even attempted to appeal to the ‘Bernie’ voters. Double Dang.
First class entertainment live from the USA.
Is any of this real? Tune in for the next episode…
Ratings will be THROUGH THE ROOF on any networks broadcasting it.
There’s gonna be some cracker sound bites.
Paddy will be fizzing, he was fizzing so hard with his archive soundbite this morning I thought he was gonna pee his pants.
It’s all very funny, until one realises that one of them will be President of the USA… and so it continues…
Lock her up! Lock her up! 😛
i didnt watch the debate but I did watch this from a Bernie Sanders supporter:
‘Actress Susan Sarandon destroys Hillary Clinton’
“Clinton scarier than Trump”
Lmfao, when he wins, because the really major players would rather it be Trump (he’s driven by fortune and adoration, perfect puppet) Hills is gonna go down. And she will go down hard, Bill too. She’s going to jail lolololz.
Donald exposed an exploit at the end, his children. The way to hurt him, do it through his kids, not the wife, use the kids, the ultimate in dirty politics.
Key boards will be humming over at camp Killary, digging away, people will be out on convert op’s listening to conversations, desperate for any information. A special team will be attempting to shut down any negative feedback on the social media via paid keyboard warriors with carefully worded scripts.
And the crowd cheered louder, even when they were told to quieten down, baying for another swipe at the Clinton Dynasty. Looking forward to the film, Baldwin to play Donald, give the man an Oscar already 🙂 America is sooo screwed.
Donald was the winner on the day, he said jack shit about any real policy, but he won, and sowed seeds of hate towards the Clintons for Americans aural pleasure. Twisted
All and all today’s events make a nice little distraction for the masses me thinks 😉
Wonder if NZ mainstream media will spin it for a weeks worth of distractions?
Parliament is back tomorrow, another circus to behold. At least it’s sunny 🙂
Thankies for the link Chooky, nice one
Well I suppose Trump threatening to jail his political opponent would be hilarious to someone who admires a man who does just that to his political opponents, if they’re lucky.
Looks like not paying Fed taxes for years has been replaced with salacious sexual content for Trump.
It’s a strange campaign but certainly not boring.
What next ?
Please let this be true.
This would seem to contradict that (I don’t know enough about twitter to know if it’s his real account – I imagine the Guardian does):
Oh yeah, he’s sincere.
My fav tweet so far:
I’d say a draw or maybe even a lean toward Trump, who wasn’t as bad as he was in the first debate. He started as if he was on firm instructions not get shouty, then got shouty anyway.
After the 30 minute mark, the debate centred more around issues of concern to the public, rather than politicking, and HC and Trump both came across as having done their homework and Trump looked almost convincing at times. Last 30 minutes Hillary was coasting, knowing nothing bad had happened to hurt her chances.
Trump needed a big, big win today. He didn’t get it.
The question of the day is ‘Where’s Mike Pence?’
I would say Trump won at not losing if you follow.
Yeah, that’s a better way to put it. He’s still the candidate, and, apparently, he still has a running mate, so that’s the minimum KPI’s met.
That’s it 🙂
If one looks at the betting markets then it was an overwhelming win for Trump.
That said he is still an outsider to win but he now has a chance, before the debate it was as if the writing was on the wall.
Apparently if one looks at the Mexican currency (a betting market for sure) then it was an overwhelming win for Clinton.
Yes, absolutely. Wall St does agree with your conclusion that the debate “was an overwhelming win for Clinton.”
Accordingly, the market makers, brokerages and billion dollar hedge funds were very pleased with Clinton’s performance and put their market money where her mouth is.
hmm – with that 2nd para are you suggesting currency gamblers are placing their buy they want Clinton to win rather than because they think they’ll make money on a short term trade?
I reckon if they thought Trump was winning, they’d place money where Trump’s mouth was – that would just be in the other direction.
A big wall and high protective import duties are going to be very bad for the Mexican economy and Mexican based companies. It seems that the financial markets don’t think that Trump will be in power to make those things happen.
Didn’t hear all of it, but it seemed a bit more even than last time. He managed to try to stick to a couple of prepared angles, although they weren’t exactly subtle.
His natural trumpishness merely showed through rather than generally stood out 🙂
Clinton seemed a bit more tested, as well – not on the ropes, but had to address some solid questions on policy.
I’ll be interested to see if he 3am tweets this one 🙂
I heard a little extract where he had his cocaine nose-job thing going on again like in the first debate, so the 3am tweets are bound to be forthcoming.
Choice between Hillary, Donald and Helen Clark how would you vote ?
Choice between Hillary, Donald and John Key how would you vote ?
The same way either way. No real choice
Military Coup? shudders at the selection
I’ve seen other versions of this, but this is the one that came up to (an extremely unexhaustive) google. I suspect that after the last weekend, there’ll be one with Trump as the Predator soon. I imagine Key has already been devoured in this contest
The questions are nonsensical, because Hillary and Donald haven’t run for office in NZ, and Helen and John haven’t run for office in the US.
OCD or an enormous carrot stuck up your ass ?
It’s like asking what your favourite flavour of ice cream is, vanilla, rocky road or fire engine.
It’s common to regard such facts as trivial when faced with a hypothetical situation of this type.
But it doesn’t make sense. What are we voting for? Helen Clark running on the democrats ticket in the US? Donald Trump as head of the national party?
He didn’t say, who would you vote for in a NZ election to be prime minister.
Helen Clark hands down, not even a contest.
Would have to be Key
Build a wall.
Make it yuge!
Put them into the foundations.
A great wall, Chinese-style.
I was thinking more of a seawall that would keep South Dunedin above water for a few more years – with southern ratas on the top for aesthetic reasons.
That could be a thing, but seeing how the DCC can’t get that little St Clair sea wall stable I am not hugely hopeful.
I wonder how many actually watched?
Missed the first one on purpose decided to watch 2nd and glad I did. **
I still hope Trump wins if only to see what happens.
Not sure which of them is worse .. Americans have a tough choice.
** Thanks for the link TRP and Lprent 🙂
I can’t see much sense in attacking Bill Clinton. Bill is not actually running. He still has pretty good approval ratings even so. Although it’s interesting that the religious right seem to condemn Hillary for sticking with the man, it also condemns divorce. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
CNN post-election debate:
Trump did less-than-bad, but Hillary beat him handsomely
God, I hope CNN are correct and not Martyn Bradbury.
He appears to think that “Oh God no! Trump beats Hillary in second debate”.
Please, please let him be as wrong as he usually is.
I don’t actually like Clinton but Trump really scares me.
Bomber is wrong about nearly everything so no need to worry
In fact, Bomber is correct. Trump called her bluff on her violent anti-Russian rhetoric perfectly: he correctly pointed out that the Assad government and Russia are fighting Al Qaeda, and that the United States is backing Al Qaeda.
All of Clinton’s bluster and sardonic smiling could not cover that up.
” … he correctly pointed out that the Assad government and Russia are fighting the Syrian medical system one hospital at a time”.
Fixed it fot ya, Moz. No thanks needed.
No thanks needed.
No one asked for that type of “so called ” help.
Is this to be the trp site, in the near future.
This is a multi author blog. The stats on readership and comments suggest my contributions add value to the site, but there are many others who contribute as authors and commenters and make TS the success that it is. You might want to consider how you could make your own contributions more memorable before attacking a regular.
Morrissey and I go back years and you’ll see from his reply below, he gives as good as he gets. I’ll keep offering my help to him, just as I expect him to try and educate me from time to time.
If your argument is really that the Russians are on the side of the angels, well, more fool you.
You might want to consider how you could make your own contributions more memorable before attacking a regular.
I am a regular, and I wasn’t attacking you, just pointing out the that comments such as 188.8.131.52.1 is your view not what had been said by Bomber.
Pointless abuse is unhelpful. You have made that point many times here in the past. Got it. 👿
Oh left out (
I was referring to Moz’s comment, l4d. He was paraphrasing Bomber, apparently. Either way, the idea that Syria and the Russians are fighting AQ is ridiculous. They’re fighting the Syrian people.
Te Reo, you haven’t addressed these central points, and I have no doubt you will for some reason avoid answering them, so I’m putting them to people who are serious:
1.) Is the United States, along with its vassals Turkey, Saudi Arabia and the United Kingdom, supporting Al Qaeda in Syria?
2.) Have these four powers been involved in this bloody insurrection since 2011?
3.) Does the United States have a history of pushing outrageous disinformation, such as the almost immediately discredited lie that the Syrian government had used chemical weapons?
4.) Are the Syrian government and Russia fighting Al Qaeda in Syria?
Unless you have the dedication of a true fanatic to the party line of the aggressors in this conflict, you will answer yes to all four questions.
No, no, yes but no, no.
Te Reo, your flippancy with matters of truth and falsehood does you no credit.
And there was I thinking my simple and mostly unequivocal answers* were entirely truthful and avoided falsehood. Would you have preferred I didn’t answer your questions?
*No.3 was a two parter, obviously.
I suspect your role in the debate was to accept Morrissey’s declamations with applause and gratitude, you delusional ingrate.
Of course they are. Qatar is a big player here too.
Their aim is to use Al Qaeda in Syria (also known as al-Nusra) as a proxy force to regime change Assad out of Damascus.
The western allies can then deal with the the Jihadists at their leisure once Assad is gone.
And from the Saudi Foreign Minister’s own words:
Most people realise nowadays that Saudi Arabia has been spreading Islamic extremism and jihadist terrorism around the world.
And with the passing of the JASTA bill in the USA, the families of 9/11 victims will finally be able to get some recompense for the terrorist supporting actions of Saudi officials.
not fucking worth it.
I could also point you to the 2012 DIA report which states explicitly how the Gulf states intend to use Islamic extremist forces to destabilise Syria and set up a Salafist principality, breaking Syria apart.
Only because RT told you so. You probably haven’t actually read it, and if you had you wouldn’t understand it.
But I was more wondering why 9/11 families would want to sue Saudi Arabia, if the towers had actually been destroyed by pre-installed charges of nanothermite and the US had fabricated cellphone calls from passengers in order to promote the hijacking hoax. Hadn’t you been arguing shit like that for a few years, and now all of a sudden it WAS a mostly bunch of Saudi and Saudi-backed hijackers?
Surely you understand it is a Democrat leaning network and had been for decades
What else would you expect ‘their poll’ to say..
Clinton got crushed badly. They all did!
It’s a staged circus though for which the script will be well enough controlled
Like WWE, but without the talent!
Yep. Huffington Post’s headline is “Don in Flames.”
Of course, this is just the liberal left echo chamber congratulating itself on Clinton having already won the election handsomely.
Yep and the right wing dingbats have trump for the win – who really cares. The lines as drawn and the sideshow is ending
Just finished watching it all. A fascinating insight into the cultural battle for the heart of the USA. Two entirely different ways at looking at the world, both did an forceful and capable job of advocating them. Yes the debate had some very pointed moments, although it’s worth noting it was Clinton who went openly personal first.
Keep in mind these are two families who know each other well. Donald and Bill used to be long time golfing buddies. The families attend each other’s weddings and so on. One can only speculate on the intense personal, human dynamics going on here.
Clinton’s policy platform is the far more attractive and rational; yet Trump is the natural circuit-breaker needed and his performance here demonstrates this.
Interesting also how Trump made a direct appeal to the Sander’s vote on three separate occasions.
I still cannot stomach either of them, but It occurs to me that if we could morph the better parts of each we might finish up with a half decent President. Maybe they could job share. 🙂
Here’s an interesting thing – the more personal the pressure and fierce the criticism that is directed at Trump, the more he pulls it together, the more he focusses and the more tightly he performs.
Also – Trump is on a huge learning curve: Hillary has been doing campaign debates for a long time and for sure is the more prepared and the more polished. Where will Trump be on the curve by the time of debate 3?
Did you notice the denials deliberately elicited from your boy?.
Yes I reckon that the Clinton campaign machine (helped by the Deep State) has a massive machine gun belt of stored up smear material on Trump ready to be fired in his direction.
His team needs to be ready; this week they were not and Trump got hit hard and deservedly so.
Yes, a massive smear machine consisting of Trump’s own candid remarks and financial statements that every other candidate has always willingly published.
The more the public learn about Trump, the less they like him.
The first poll conducted only on the weekend, put Trump down on 36%.
In CV’s world things people actually say and do are smears and Hillary Clinton having Parkinson’s disease are facts
Another key moment was when Clinton was drawn into committing the US into directly attacking Syrian govt forces, while Trump made it plain that “Syria is Russia”.
Based on their words in this debate alone, Clinton was by far the more hawkish on a war with Russia. That alone absolutely renders her unfit for President in my mind. Trump is welcome to make as many vulgar, demeaning remarks as he likes … they’re still way preferable to another re-run of the Cuban Missile crisis. (Which apparently only had a happy ending due to the guts of one very brave Russian submarine officer.)
a massive machine gun belt of stored up smear material on Trump ready to be fired in his direction.
We’re not far away from having the technology to record and store every word, action and electronic transaction of every person from birth to death, 24/7/365. Everyone standing for high public office should have their database opened for public scrutiny a year in advance.
Would someone like Phil Goff running for Mayor of Auckland be subject to this requirement?
If an automated reporting system is available to collate such records on candidates (or anyone else – a system I think which is already 95% in place), how will it be controlled so that authorities could not use it in inappropriate ways? Think Judith Collins and worse…
Everyone. The lot. Sex lives and all. Zero privacy. Far more honest than the very selective privacy that is only really available to the very wealthy and powerful at present.
That’s a different NZ society than the one we have today, for sure.
Yes it is CV. You can tell I’m being just a little provocative here, but inevitably as ubiquitous surveillance becomes the norm these questions will become serious.
Look at it like this. Either you have 100% transparency, or 100% privacy. Anything in between involves selecting what is public or private. And that always begs the question; who does the selecting?
For the moment I’m going with 100% transparency as the simplest answer.
Jesus Red! Are you really wanting to let a sexual maniac loose in the White House? Not only is he an arrogant blustering misogynist, but and ignorant one at that, with not a single policy for his country other than to give the elite a massive tax break (oh! himself included! surprise! surprise!)
Can you imagine him at 3 am in the morning, in his cups, and a red alert? The result would be an absolute catastrophe world wide!
I have no time for Hillary Clinton but my god I fear for the world if he ever gets to be POTUS.
Nope. Bernie Sanders, Jill Stein, Elizabeth Warren are my “really wanting” choices.
But sadly only Stein is on the ballot papers.
Mine too but Jill Stein is running at 1% in the polls 🙁
So offered the choice of Melanoma or Schizophrenia which do you choose?
Well that’s my point really; just because I pick melanoma doesn’t mean we can’t have an honest discussion about schizophrenia. Nor the reasons why some people, in good faith, want to pick schizophrenia.
Or to be a tad droll … facing catastrophe does rather free the mind.
Jill Stein answers the same questions in this “expanded debate” over on Democracy Now (Gary Johnson was asked but was a no show). It’s interesting enough so far, but nearly two hours long! Even skipping past the bits I saw yesterday I’m not that far through yet
I am sure Trump also has ammunition…just look at how he dealt to Jeb Bush and Ted Cruz at the last minute
Clintons have form from way back and Hillary is complicit. She is no fool.
‘The Secret Life of Bill Clinton: The Unreported Stories ‘ (October 1, 1997)
by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
News flash – he’s not running, he already had his turn at pres.
The perp and his enabler/clean up crew.
Well done that made me laugh out loud in the real world. You sound like an idiot wannabe with your googled jargon techno speak. It fools only the fool-able.
Yeah, but how about a Hillary-Bill double billing
“Mrs. Clinton told voters in Kentucky on Sunday that Mr. Clinton would be “in charge of revitalizing the economy, because, you know, he knows how to do it,” especially “in places like coal country and inner cities.” On a campaign swing this month before the West Virginia primary, she said her husband has “got to come out of retirement and be in charge” of creating jobs.”
Thats a touch more involved than previous ‘First Lady’ roles.
I am sure Trump also has ammunition…
Well, he would if Bill Clinton were somehow able to take a second run at the presidency. Given how much money the Republicans have “invested” in trying to get dirt on Hillary Clinton over a period of nearly 25 years, with no notable success, it’s not likely that Trump’s going to find something.
There’s a fair chance that debate 3 will be cancelled. Meanwhile, you still think Trump will win.
Do you think that either Clinton or Trump would benefit from the effect of such a cancellation, or would the result be a wash-up?
Depends who instigates it and what the polling is at the time.
If Clinton is +15, even if it did hurt her a little bit, it wouldn’t matter.
Trump will never agree so that leaves the Democrats to instigate it.
Guess it depends on whether or not Trump’s able to score some more cocaine for the occasion 😀
oh! that remark is a little sniffy!
There’s a fair chance that debate 3 will be cancelled.
By ‘fair’, do you mean something close to zero?. Clinton is doing a perfectly adequate job of stating her case to the US-center while letting Trump ‘shit the bed’.
If the debate is cancelled it’ll be for something outside the control of the candidates (like a natural disaster or terrorist attack).
Trump’s campaign could completely fall apart, eg Pence could quit and the Republican elites could actively disown him. Just requires the right scandal for him.
Clinton might then say that there’s no need for a debate with Trump and that she won’t sully herself on the same stage, and do something else instead, or just not do anything.
john key should be more like trump we need a trump here to sort out the poor who are pulling new zealand down
[read the moderation notice here https://thestandard.org.nz/cross-party-inquiry-into-homelessness-releases-report-government-must-act/#comment-1242965 You’ll be let out of premed when you can reply to this message saying you’ve understood. – weka]
You’ll be let out of preschool once you’ve had some grammar, punctuation and comprehension lessons.
A shame that you would criticise someone’s grammar and punctuation as a way of dissing their point of view.
Is there test that should be sat before commenting on TS?
It’s the kind of thing Trump would do.
At 1:08:23 Hillary says “My vision of America is an America where everyone has a place if you’re prepared to work hard”. If you think hard work will “sort out the poor” Hillary might agree with you.
Bill Clinton smashed the US welfare system during his term, including putting through changes depriving millions of American children in the poorest households of social welfare payments.
Just so you know.
Trump of course will restore it as well as slashing taxes for the super wealthy.
No one is going to restore it, Macro. Well, except for maybe Bernie, but he sold out/got bought off.
Trump Crushes Clinton And Her Memorized Soundbites
Without Her Rigged Podium And MicroTeleprompter, Clinton Was A Two-Faced, Two Dimensional, Tired, Hackneyed, Has-Been…A Political Farce…A Caricature Of The Failed, Deadly, Liberal Policies That Have All But Destroyed America. The Fraud click bait Media Is In Shock…Watch How They Will Squirm Trying To Explain Away Trump’s Astonishing Performance. How Could He Still Be Standing After Their Savage Abuse Of The Last Year And A Half. How Could He Have Dominated The Stage So Strongly And With Such Resolve And Stature…Especially After Having Been Ambushed, Pummeled And Put Through Such Contrived And Orchestrated Media Hell Over The Last 48 Hours? He Was Supposed To Be ‘Dead’ By Now. The Media Still Doesn’t Get It…Donald Trump Did It With His Enormous Strength Of Character, Flawless Discipline And Unswerving Passion For America And Its People. Trump Stood Like Mt Everest On His Sterling Positions On ALL The Key Issues We Face. America Is Clearly Bored And Disgusted With Clinton’s Arrogance, Sneering Condescension And Her Memorized, Empty, Tired, Non-Answers. Trump Defeated Not Only Clinton But An Evil And Corrupt Mass Media As Well. It Is Time For A Massive Change In America And We Have Seen, Once Again, That We Have The Right Man To Lead Us To Recovery And Prosperity…The Man Who WILL Make America Great Again.
[Stephanie: Copy-pasting incoherent screeds from quack conservative sites does not make for interesting conversation. This is your one warning.]
Your Strangely Capitilised Slogans Make You Look Like A TOTAL Fuckwit… Is That Intentional?
Try reading it like seriously alternative rap, hip-hop styles.
johnm’s edgy as.
The Posting Of An Alex Jones Clip Without Any Comment As To Why It Is Credible ALL But Confirms That You Are Indeed A Fuckwit… Siobhan’s Suggestion That You Could Be A; “seriously alternative rap, hip-hop” Stylist, Seems Disproved… Nor Do You Seem To Be An “Ironic” Performance Artist…
Oh look, the serial sexual offender lied, agian.
During Sunday’s debate, Donald Trump once again said he doesn’t know whether Russia is trying to hack the U.S. election, despite Friday’s statement by the U.S. intelligence community pointing the finger at Putin — and despite the fact that Trump was personally briefed on Russia’s role in the hacks by U.S. officials.
A senior U.S. intelligence official assured NBC News that cybersecurity and the Russian government’s attempts to interfere in the 2016 election have been briefed to, and discussed extensively with, both parties’ candidates, surrogates and leadership, since mid-August. “To profess not to know at this point is willful misrepresentation,” said the official. “The intelligence community has walked a very thin line in not taking sides, but both candidates have all the information they need to be crystal clear.”
This is just so wonderfully wrong (warning – earwormy!):
Ha! Brilliant work, whoever did this. The love just shines through, doesn’t it?
Hilarious. Brought a tear to my eyes. So much love.