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Convoy protest 25/2/22

Written By: - Date published: 6:10 am, February 25th, 2022 - 200 comments
Categories: covid-19 - Tags: , , ,

Day 18

 

Radicalisation in real time (Dr Michael Daubs, Newsroom)

Parliamentary Grounds occupation and mandates: Analysis, and News Reporting lists of articles for 23/2/22 (The Democracy Project)

Figureheads and factions: the key people at the parliament occupation (Toby Manhire, The Spinoff)

Police wave white flag as occupiers dig in – why parliament stalemate won’t end anytime soon (Marc Daalder, Newsroom)

List of reasons for Convoy 2022 NZ (NZ Truckies FB)

Letter of Demand (from protest organisers)

Newsroom: ‘Splintered realities’: How NZ convoy lost its way

Stuff: Inside the disorienting, contradictory swirl of the convoy, as seen through its media mouthpiece,

 

200 comments on “Convoy protest 25/2/22 ”

  1. PsyclingLeft.Always 1

    Mr Evans said he was taking part in his second Convoy 2022 NZ event and expected the crossing could be made on about Monday, weather permitting.

    "I support their cause. I just thought, ‘ … that could be a spectacle’."

    https://www.odt.co.nz/rural-life/rural-people/groundswell-planner-anti-mandate-%E2%80%98flotilla%E2%80%99

    Dumkirk 2 : Groundswell

    Morons

  2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2

    Protesters lined up outside and screamed "shame on you" and "murderer".

    Police were called to the scene and tried to disperse the crowd.

    https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-christchurch/protesters-shout-abuse-during-prime-ministers-canterbury-school-visit

    These peaceful protestors…. Targetting Schools? Disgusting. I’d say shame…but they have none. Disturbing

  3. Andy 3

    I'm not a big fan of heckling politicians and outside the school wasn't a good look.

    • weka 3.1

      I am a fan of heckling politicians if it's done intelligently. Outside the school was a bad look, but also a bad look is people chasing the Labour Prime Minister and shouting at her because they lost their job and/or have no job and she doesn't care.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.1.1

        and she doesn't care.

        Is that a reckon? Because I dont see it.

        • weka 3.1.1.1

          can you show me some examples of:

          • Ardern expressing sympathy or compassion for the people who lost their jobs due to the mandates?
          • Labour policy that is designed to help people who lost their careers due to the mandates?
          • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.1.1.1.1

            You didnt answer my question. If its a "reckon" …not really good enough to show "she doesnt care" . And as we all know that, by far, the vast Majority of NZers absolutely support the Vaccine Mandate. And do not want a very small Minority of anti vaxxer…or "anti mandaters" Teaching their Children, Caring for their loved ones, Hospital/Health care, etc. How many of those screaming "murderer" or….."traitor" even had jobs?

            • weka 3.1.1.1.1.1

              Of course it's a reckon. It's based on my observations of Labour and Ardern over time. If you think I'm wrong, then put up an actual argument (and show me how I am wrong).

              And as we all know that, by far, the vast Majority of NZers absolutely support the Vaccine Mandate. And do not want a very small Minority of anti vaxxer…or "anti mandaters" Teaching their Children, Caring for their loved ones, Hospital/Health care, etc.

              Are you implying that Ardern's lack of compassion and Labour's lack of help for people with jobs/careers is justified?

              How many of those screaming "murderer" or….."traitor" even had jobs?

              Ah, the left stealing the right's lines.

              • PsyclingLeft.Always

                Are you implying that Ardern's lack of compassion and Labour's lack of help for people with jobs/careers is justified?

                Well…I leave you to it. As yet again…you are doing what you PERSONALLY dislike. IE Presuming ("implying") what others…would think.

                I absolutely say that Jacinda Ardern and Team saved NZ thousands of deaths. Anti vaxxers and/or "anti mandaters" notwithstanding. Why the "protestors" have nil support from me.

                • weka

                  I absolutely say that Jacinda Ardern and Team saved NZ thousands of deaths. Anti vaxxers and/or "anti mandaters" notwithstanding.

                  I agree.

                  Why the "protestors" have nil support from me.

                  Sure, everyone is entitled to their opinion. That has nothing to do with what I said and what you chose to argue with me about. If you can't put up an argument and you won't clarify your position then what's the point?

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.1.1.1.2

            I agree about Ardern not showing sympathy – in fact she is trying to 'other' the protesters, as her response. She should definitely show more empathy, even if she doesn't agree with them (and she shouldn't agree for the most part).

            I am not sure anything extra should be done to support people who have chosen not to be vaccinated that is over and above what is available to every other unemployed person (and in fact I think people who lose a job from refusing to comply with a vaccine mandate do not have the WINZ stand down, unlike others who have 'chosen' to leave work for other reasons – e.g. employer abuse, failing health etc.)

            Of course Labour have been utterly remiss in addressing the total inadequacy of the welfare system, which is a different issue to special treatment for vaccine refuseniks.

        • Andy 3.1.1.2

          Well there's the famous clip of her smirking when asked about creating a two tiered society

          That has been shared globally.

          • bad politics baby 3.1.1.2.1

            Cite please Andy.

              • bad politics baby

                I guess you'll see what you want to see really, but thanks for the link.

              • McFlock

                Looks to me like she was smiling before the question was asked.

                But she's right. People do want to be able to go out in safety. With confidence.

                • Andy

                  Fur ihr sicherheit.

                  For your safety, in German.

                  Used a lot in the 1930s

                  • weka

                    are you suggesting that rather than genuine concern for the population, Labour are engaged in a propaganda process as a set up for fascism?

                  • Andrew Miller

                    Ah bless.

                    One of the reasons I’m so keen on the idea of free speech is you get the entertainment of lots of unintentional comedy.
                    Yes of course, our public health measures are just like 1930s Germany.

                    I well remember reading about the anti Nazi protest camped outside the Reichstag for weeks on end, whilst SS talked about lawful protest.

                  • McFlock

                    Pop down to parliament lawn and tell their political grandchildren about that one.

                • weka

                  that's not the problem though. The problem is she intentionally went 'yep, two NZs 👍'

                  And now people are wondering why a mob has been camped on the front lawn, and some are chasing her down the street.

                  She's an arch communicator. Either she fucked up the interview, or knew what she was doing and thought it worth it.

                  • Poission

                    Where she stuffed up was in saying that the vaccines give people confidence, a scientifically ill posed proposition.

                    Here people lessen their resolve with their use of NPI,the vaccines are not a shield,they protect for a limited time,they do reduce the risk from severe infection in most cases,but the time constraint is a game you cant get out of.

                  • felix

                    You've struck upon exactly what bothers me about it weka – she's a master communicator, never uttered a word out of place in her career. Whatever she said was exactly what she meant to say.

                    • Molly

                      Agree.

                      That perspective further evidenced by the body language while she was saying it.

                      (eg. ' I don't care about them, and neither should you.' To me, it showed smug disdain. Replicated now in thousands of ways on various platforms, including TS).

                  • McFlock

                    The mob would be there even if she bullshitted her way out of it.

                    Fact is, her approach in that interview was about making people consciously choose between staying unvaccinated or having a night out. Dunno if it was a conscious preplanned tactic or just a bit of uncharacteristic bluntness, but it's important for people to know the consequences of the choices they are making.

                    • weka

                      I understand what she did and why, I'm saying that she doesn't care about the people that lost jobs.

                    • McFlock

                      I think she has bigger problems to deal with than folks who chose unemployment to avoid microchip injections.

                      But that might just be me projecting because I, personally, had tremendous difficulty dredging up any sympathy for the wilfully unvaccinated even before the clownvoy.

                      Five more dead today.

                    • weka

                      sure, but that's about your belief system not the various reasons why people chose not to be vaccinated.

                      And you sound like National, who are the people who believe that people who make poor choices about work should be punished. Oh wait, so do Labour. QED I guess.

                    • McFlock

                      National talk about poor choices with things that often actually aren't choices, or are rational choices given the situation. Like "choosing" to not work because they're competing against dozens/hundreds of other people and the decision is up to the recruiters, not the job applicants.

                      This crowd are like (more than one) former colleague who fucked around and got fired, or jumped before they were pushed. Shit like lying on application forms, activity logs, or timesheets and other pointless petty theft, just blatant stuff.

                      But whether Ardern cares or not about the wilfully unvaccinated losing their jobs is largely unknowable by either of us. Even if she's said nice words at some press conference, who knows about whether that's the truth.

                      But it's also just a nice-to-have, anyway. I think there would still be a camp even if she repeatedly wrung her hands about the completely personally-avoidable human cost of a sensible public health policy.

                      • Lockdowns – nobody could get out of.
                      • Don't have a vaccine pass so they can't go to the pub? Well, they know what to do to get one.
                    • Tricledrown []

                      Funny Luxons recent speech about life's choices ,he said that it's a fallacy that people can pull themselves out of poverty by their boot strings.

                      What are Nationals policies on helping people up the ladder.

                      Or is this another aspirational wet dream that National will help the poor out of poverty.

                      Like Boris Johnston who has created more poverty after a similar promise.

                      Looks like luxon has been copying and pasting rhetoric.

                  • Andrew Miller

                    Aside from empathetic words can you give some concrete examples of what she could and should have done, given that mandates we’re considered correct and appropriate and aside from those who who medically couldn’t anyone unvaccinated was in that position by their own poor choice.
                    There’s clearly no way she could have sent signals that refusing to be vaccinated was just a ‘different’ choice. It would have undermined the entire message around getting vaccination rates as high as possible.

                    • weka

                      Yes, and I argued that at the time. However it's been months now, she did take a more conciliatory approach once (in Jan?) but not since.

                      Of course now she is stuck, because she can't do that with the mob on the lawn. And it's not even really a problem for Labour, because they're not actually a labour party, but it is a problem for the left, which increasingly seems to think people losing their jobs is no big deal.

                    • lprent []

                      …but it is a problem for the left, which increasingly seems to think people losing their jobs is no big deal.

                      It could have something to do with the steadily decreasing employment under-utilization rates that appear in our current statistics.

                      Those are now similar to the front of the graph – which was December 2008 – 14 years ago – just before the effects of the GFC hit.

                      That maps up pretty well with what seems to be happening in the public mood about employment. In particular the amount of job mobility has significantly increased over the last year.

                  • The Chairman

                    That's not the problem though. The problem is she intentionally went 'yep, two NZs 👍'

                    And now people are wondering why a mob has been camped on the front lawn, and some are chasing her down the street.

                    You know it.

                    yes

                  • Rosemary McDonald

                    I initially thought it was a brain fart…a statement made independent of advice from the professionals we pay to make sure what comes out of her mouth stands up to scrutiny.

                    https://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/article/undoctored/prime-minister-jacinda-arderns-speech-notes-covid-19-protection-framework

                    It wasn't. It was planned. The speech was written for her and she kept pretty much to the script.

                    It was designed to do what it did…divide us according to who was complying with commands to have a novel pharmaceutical injected that had (by then proven) limits on its ability to prevent transmission.

                    As soon as she said…'..we need to keep those who have had two doses safe from those who haven't…' warning klaxons should have sounded and most folks should have had a wtf??? moment or three.

                    The fact that this did not happen, and a surprising majority of the population happily went along with the bs, is something that should be the focus of discussion for some time.

                    Fear. The fear- laden relentless propaganda did it's work.

          • weka 3.1.1.2.2

            yep. I did hear her in 2022 say something much more conciliatory and inclusive, once, in January I guess. Can't remember the context, and it's obviously not a dominant strain in messaging from Ardern or Labour.

          • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.2.3

            I don't buy that for a moment, Andy.

            I can see why it inflames you though.

      • Jenny how to get there 3.1.2

        For their personal selfish right to spread contagion, even to vulnerable and immunocompromised citizens they selfishly chose to lose their job and then chose to attack and blame the Prime Minister for their own decisions. She does care.

        They don't care.

        The Spinoff live updates has spoken to a handful of protesters this morning, with none worried about potentially catching Covid-19 from within the camp. All believed the virus was real and could cause harm,…..

        ……One man said he was young and healthy and that if he caught the virus it would be just like any other cold. “Absolutely” Covid-19 could be dangerous for “people over 50”, he said, but he felt he would be fine if he tested positive.

        …..Reports of confirmed cases have caused little concern among those The Spinoff has talked to on the ground outside parliament this week. One protester expressed concern about false positives, while another claimed they were young and therefore unlikely to need hospital treatment.

        https://thespinoff.co.nz/live-updates/24-02-2022/roads-around-parliament-start-to-clear-but-the-tents-remain

        • bad politics baby 3.1.2.1

          Was walking with my unvaxxed 18 year old stepson last night, we passed an elderly gentleman with some kind of disability walking poorly with a walking stick, I said to stepson "when you say it's only the elderly or those in poor health who die, that is who you are talking about". He still won't get vaxxed, because he's a selfish little shit, even though the little scrote gets crazy chest infections every winter, so dumb.

        • weka 3.1.2.2

          no evidence of these though, right?

          • Ardern expressing sympathy or compassion for the people who lost their jobs due to the mandates
          • Labour policy that is designed to help people who lost their careers due to the mandates
          • Shanreagh 3.1.2.2.1

            I find this view a little strange.

            These were people who chose not to get vaccinated when they had the chance so in effect they were anti vaxxers and had thumbed their noses at doing it for themselves or for others. The vaccines came out before the mandates did. There was an oppotunity to be vaccinated before the mandates came in. This happened before Omicron as well.

            In an effort to drive along vaccination rates, to try to keep the pandemic in check ie by not allowing people more likely to have covid from freely mixing and to encourage people to go out and about to pump up the economy the mandate was set out.

            People then had time to reflect on their anti vaxx stance and to be vaccinated. People had to reflect on their personal and financial situation and decide to be vaccinated.

            Some did get vaccinated by choice.

            Others maintained their anti vaxx position.

            Workplaces, mostly front facing jobs in health, education, police, defence hospo were given the mandate tool. Other private employers, finding that they were potentially losing business by not being able to provide a vaccinated workplace then made job requirements around vaccinations.

            So these people are those who were anti vaxx to start off with.

            Many many people are affected by the actions of Govt, often by dates for eligibility changing, or assets. Many have no way to stop a law or policy from applying to them or in cases making them worse off in some way.

            PM is not expected to say sorry, we changed the dates for people to apply and you miss out now, or we've changed the $$$$ needed and you don't have enough or too many $$$$ and now you don't qualify or we've decided to harshly tax your redundancy payment instead of how it was when your job was made redundant, or your redundancy has been frozen the night before you were due to get it, applied to 1000s in 1990s.

            This was due to the operation of Govt policy or legislation and no-one expected anyone in Govt to be saying sorry. This happens every time legislation affecting, tax or social welfare benefits or when you had an eligibility say for a loan then overnight this changed, trade assistance then nothing..

            Contrast this with the warnings about the effects of the mandates, plenty of time to really think this through. Judging by the amount of woo woo on display as reasons in articles about the protestors and the old 'no-one's telling me what to do cutting your nose off to spite your face' argument it is evident that many believed social media sources over medical facts….

            I am unable to think of a case where a PM has said anything in similar cases. The operation of any law by Govt has people who benefit and people who don't. In this case instead of a change coming overnight, say after a budget, people did have time to get themselves on the better side of the law.

        • Gypsy 3.1.2.3

          "they selfishly chose to lose their job"

          They didn't 'choose' to do anything of the sort. They chose not to be vaccinated, trusting that their PM would honour a promise made by the PM that there would be no forced vaccinations, and that there would be no penalties for not getting vaxxed.

          • Jenny how to get there 3.1.2.3.1

            Forced? They weren't forced to be vaccinated. They freely chose not to be vaccinated.

            Make your bed, lie in it.

            They selfishly chose to impinge on the freedom of those more vulnerable than themselves.

            And then complain that there is a self imposed cost to their selfish choice.

            – the one thing they seemingly want is freedom from the government's Covid-19 rules.

            For disabled people like myself, this freedom would mean the end of reasonable restrictions which have saved potentially not only my life but the lives of thousands of disabled people and people with health conditions nationwide who would otherwise have succumbed to Covid-19….

            I hope that anyone who has been on the protest (or is still planted there), if they are reading this, will take note of the fact that overseas a high proportion of Covid-19 hospitalisations and deaths (particularly prior to the arrival of vaccines) were of disabled people or people with health conditions…..

            A disabled person's view of the Wellington occupation

            5:25 pm on 23 February 2022

            By Chris Ford*

            • Gypsy 3.1.2.3.1.1

              They did not 'choose' to lose their jobs though, did they? Which is what you claimed.

              They chose to trust the PM was being truthful. And in the case of police and Defence personnel, they trusted the government not to make unlawful rules.

              • G

                They are not forced to stay in the army or police.

                The Australian government did not legislate a mandate in the Australian Defence Forces. To their disgrace the Australian warship to Tonga carrying aid to Tonga after the volcano disaster carried 23 covid infected crew.

                To our honour and pride, the New Zealand navy had not one case on board

                Tonga had been Covid free.

                You and your treacherous mates would like to destroy our reputation and endanger the public health of our Pacific neighbours.

                Remember the advanced medical resources we have are not as available in the smaller Pacific Island nations.

                We do not need disloyal enlisted staff willing to risk the health of our Pacific neighbours in our armed forces.

                https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/460200/covid-19-confirmed-aboard-hmas-adelaide-enroute-to-tonga

                • Gypsy

                  "They are not forced to stay in the army or police."

                  No, they were forced to leave! And unlawfully, as it turns out.

                  "The Australian government did not legislate a mandate in the Australian Defence Forces."

                  Oh dear. You really didn't do your homework.

                  1. All of the crew of the Adelaide had been vaccinated. That knocks your pompous little rant out of the water. But there's more.

                  2. Those testing positive were quarantined. On the ship. And that little gem is from your own link.

                  3. The delivery was entirely contactless.

                  4. Tonga has confirmed the cases in Tonga were not from the Adelaide.

                  What were you saying?

                  • Jenny how to get there

                    1. All of the crew of the Adelaide had been vaccinated. That knocks your pompous little rant out of the water…..

                    What were you saying?

                    What I was saying is this; it is a proven fact that mandates work;

                    It's a fact; The Australian government, (unlike the New Zealand government), did not put in place a vaccine mandate in their military.

                    It's a fact; That what the vaccine does is prime your immune system to fight the virus if you are exposed to it. (nothing else).

                    It's a fact; that the vaccine does not stop infection or indeed transmission.

                    It's a fact; that the vaccine does act to slow down both infection and transmission.

                    It's a fact; Without a vaccine mandate, in the Australian armed forces the infection is free to spread unimpeded to all parts of the Australian Defence force personal whether they are vaccinated or not.

                    Its a fact that the Australian warship that went to Tonga had 23 cases of covid on board.

                    It's a fact; that everyone of the New Zealand naval or Orion air crew that went to Tonga had not a single case of Covid-19.

                    Twist and wriggle all you like. mandates work.

                    Mandates work, in stopping the spread of Covid-19, even the highly contagious Omicron variant. (Where nothing else has)

                    • Gypsy

                      It’s a fact that of the Australian sailors were vaccinated. It’s a fact that none of the infected sailors gave Tinga covid. G’s post was therefore complete nonsense.

                  • Jenny how to get there

                    It is a proven fact that the Australian Defence Force lie.

                    ……well-connected figures in politics, the veterans’ community and, most significantly, some of those accused of war crimes, appear eager to undermine the witnesses and those who have confessed. These people have launched an increasingly active misinformation campaign. Its premise appears to be that war crimes never occurred.

                    Australian Defence Association chief executive Neil James describes their contentions as “bullshit” and guided by powerful individuals….

                    …..If recent events are a guide, the misinformation appears to be gaining traction, thanks to a friendly ear in some influential corners of the media…

                    ….men such as Soldier X chose truth and redemption over a cover-up is at risk of being obscured by half-truths, lies and spin.

                    As Australia’s war crimes investigations drag on, misinformation is catching up

                    By Nick McKenzie and Chris Masters

                    August 30, 2021 — 5.00am

                    But whether the Australian Defence force transmitted Covid-19, into (previous to their arrival), Covid free Tonga or not, is not the point. (The point is they had the potential to).

                    Whereas the New Zealand Defence Force personal had no potential to spread this disease into Covid-19 free Tonga, None, Zero, Nada, Zilch.

                    Mandates work

                    • Gypsy

                      Jenny, you're reading right over my points.

                      1. Of course mandates work, that has never been my point.

                      2. Mandates forced thousands of people out of work, whether you like it or not.

                      3. Mandates that 'cost' people (eg their jobs) were specifically ruled out by the PM. She either lied, or she went back on her word.

                      4. Mandates for the police and armed forces were unlawful. I would have thought you would have been concerned that we have a government that passes laws that breach the Bill of Rights.

                      5. G's example of how mandates work was like shooting himself in the foot. The Australians were all vaccinated. So even with a mandate, nothing would have been any different.

  4. The Chairman 4

    Will Jacinda's desire to extend covid restrictions over winter to combat the flu be the straw that breaks the camel's back?

    On Monday, Feb 21, Jacinda said New Zealand is likely to hit the Omicron peak mid-to-late March, She went on to say, once cases begin to fall (she expects a rapid decline) that is the point where we can start doing things differently, in terms of restrictions and mandates.

    However, by Tuesday, it was reported she cautioned that the traffic light system was likely to remain in place for the winter to combat not just Covid, but the return of the flu.

    On Monday, in a message to the protesters she said everyone is over Covid. Saying, no one wants to live with rules or restrictions.

    I think when the majority of the public realise she is planning to extend it out throughout winter to combat the flu, they are going to be over her and her restrictions.

    Feeding right into the hands of the current protesters.

    Watch this space.

    Related links

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/covid-19-omicron-jacinda-ardern-plots-path-to-end-of-some-vaccine-mandates-but-warns-omicron-wave-will-hit-first/T5WKTX7MHCF3A6XKJOG63TUSUI/

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/02/21/future-with-fewer-restrictions-once-omicron-peak-passes-pm/

    • weka 4.1

      you seem to be having difficulty understanding two things,

      1. Ardern doesn't know how the pandemic is going to go, no-one does. It would be irresponsible for her to say 'we will remove all restrictions at x point', because we don't actually know what x point is
      2. there is a difference between less restrictions and no restrictions. There is no contradiction between signalling that the govt intends to lessen restrictions and saying they will still keep what is necessary in place during the pandemic.

      Anyone who thinks the pandemic will definitely be over in April or even by winter really hasn't been paying attention.

      • Matiri 4.1.1

        Also many of the behaviours we have (re)learned from Covid will be helpful in flu season – washing your hands, staying home when sick, sneezing into your elbow etc…..

        • PsyclingLeft.Always 4.1.1.1

          staying home when sick

          Aye yes. And NO soldiering on !

          • Andrew Miller 4.1.1.1.1

            I think even pre COVID there’d started to be a shift on that, from what I remember when I started my working life.

            • PsyclingLeft.Always 4.1.1.1.1.1

              Hmmm, yea theres still elements of it about. Strangely enough places i have worked/still work "Managers" quite often worst examples. And yes an idiot HR/Finance "Manager" turned up during Covid coughing etc behind mask (It was only a cold ! )

              • Andrew Miller

                Oh yeah, I was merely saying I’d already seen an improvement.

                Obviously things could be far better and if there a ‘positive’ to come from all this it may be that.
                I agree about managers often being the worst. Requires further up the chain to send them home asap.
                They’re often the same managers as the ones with retrograde attitudes to work/life balance.

        • joe90 4.1.1.2

          Some things just work.

        • Andy 4.1.1.3

          Yes I completely agree about staying home when sick

      • Andy 4.1.2

        Iceland has dropped all restrictions, as have most other Scandinavian countries. We can look to those places to get an idea where we are heading

        • weka 4.1.2.1

          Indeed. I'm curious if the cold is a factor in their various rates.

          • Grey Area 4.1.2.1.1

            Interesting point Weka. Id there any correlation with flu I wonder. If I had the time I'd try to compare influenza rates with ours. And does NZ have differing rates between the Winterless North and the Deep South?

      • The Chairman 4.1.3

        She was first giving the impression (when saying: that is the point where we can start doing things differently, in terms of restrictions and mandates) that they will start to reduce not long after mid-to-late March.

        But in the following piece, she suggests it will be at least the end of winter. And potentially even longer for some sectors. So I think there was a big change in signalling between those two stories

        Furthermore, there is a huge difference when stating she now plans to apply the use of covid restrictions to also combat the flu.

        Did they get emergency use for that? Or will that shortly be rushed through?

        I'm paying attention. And to me she is looking slippery with her language. Reminiscent to Labour's shifting position on the TPP.

        Do you think she is going to be able to sell this (applying it to the flu and extending it to after winter or longer) to the wider public? I think it will go down like a cup of cold sick.

        I believe the general public and businesses will go nuts.

        This is going to be interesting.

        • Barfly 4.1.3.1

          Future restrictions crystal ball engaged – how long was that ball of string ?

          I need to input the length into the crystal ball.

        • weka 4.1.3.2

          She was first giving the impression (when saying: that is the point where we can start doing things differently, in terms of restrictions and mandates) that they will start to reduce not long after mid-to-late March.

          But in the following piece, she suggests it will be at least the end of winter. And potentially even longer for some sectors. So I think there was a big change in signalling between those two stories

          I don't know what you are reading, because you haven't quoted and linked (and no, I'm not going to read whole articles linked randomly to try and parse your argument).

          I think you're probably twisting things, so I will just reiterate, it's a pandemic, things are changing all the time. I know people want security of certainty, but that's just not where we are right now. Adapting to that is a skill that can be learned.

      • Andrew Miller 4.1.4

        It’s almost like the Government are trying their best to respond to changing circumstances.

        Nah….

        • weka 4.1.4.1

          lol.

          It's not like if they took all the restrictions off that things would suddenly become normal, stable and certain. Just a different set of unknowns and stressors.

          • Andrew Miller 4.1.4.1.1

            That’s always been my point about those who from day 1 talked about the harm from the restrictions given that people die from things all the time.

            In the abstract I could understand the argument, in a desire to save life’s we could have done more harm. However…

            They really seemed to believe that had we let COVID run wild there would had been no economic impact, no mental health issues, no stress on kids etc, it was only the restrictions do that.

        • The Chairman 4.1.4.2

          It’s almost like the Government are trying their best to respond to changing circumstances.

          When it comes to applying the covid traffic light system to combat the flu, I think most will see that as Government overreach.

      • Patricia Bremner 4.1.5

        I have difficulty reconciling the "Sneer and cruel" trope with her constant search for the "greater good" but then I admit I have met her and she is caring and I am Labour.

        For others to interpret one interview moment as defining a complex situation is misleading. The whole may give a different picture. Context is key.

        • weka 4.1.5.1

          I'm not saying Ardern is an uncaring person (she has demonstrated a lot that she is). I'm saying she's not given care to this group of NZers, and it's obvious. If I am wrong, then please show me evidence of these,

          • Ardern expressing sympathy or compassion for the people who lost their jobs due to the mandates
          • Labour policy that is designed to help people who lost their careers due to the mandates

          In my observation Ardern is also very tough, it's a requirement of a job that necessitates making very difficult decisions. This doesn't mean she can't also care, but I'm not willing to pretend she doesn't have this side to her either. It was very clear in the two NZs clip.

          • Peter 4.1.5.1.1

            Show you evidence of Ardern expressing sympathy or compassion for the people who lost their jobs due to the mandates?

            You are convinced Ardern has expressed no sympathy for those in that situation. I'm sure there'll be thousands ready to scour every single word she has said and written since March 2019 to see if you're wrong.

            I've seen no evidence of her expressing sympathy to families who lost loved ones in road crashes in Northland over the past year. Heartless uncaring bitch.

            • weka 4.1.5.1.1.1

              If she had been in charge of road safety in Northland, and hadn't expressed sympathy for deaths, your comparison would make some kind of sense. But it still misses the point.

      • Tricledrown 4.1.6

        Weka your dead right people go indoors when it's cold add a round of multiple flues which most haven't been exposed to for 2 yrs ,That could be another pandemic.on top of an extremely overloaded health system.

  5. Reality 5

    Enjoy Professor Rod Jackson's response to Russell Coutts who has spouted off his opinions about vaccines/mandates when he has no qualifications or scientific knowledge. The Professor gives his opinion on yachting despite having no experience or knowledge and asks why should people wear jackets – their body, their choice.

    • Nic the NZer 5.1

      We are probably going to need a knighthood for our police commissioners response to the protest/government overthrow attempt. Does anybody know of one not presently being put to good use?

    • weka 5.2

      is any of that out from the NHZ paywall yet?

      • Matiri 5.2.1

        Rod Jacksons response:

        Inspired by Sir Russell Coutts' recent foray into epidemiology and public-health policy, Professor Rod Jackson – who knew nothing about sailing until he did his own research – offers his opinion on how sailing should be done.

        The trouble with sailing is that everyone listens too much to what the so-called 'experts' have to say. I mean: yes, the actual sailors have years of experience; and yes, the yacht designers have fancy so-called degrees. But I mean, what's all that worth? Captain Bligh was a so-called 'expert' on sailing and look where it got him.

        In yacht design, we've been expected to almost blindly follow the advice of so-called experts, just because they might have impressive credentials. You can learn pretty much everything you need to know about sailing from social media.

        I saw this thing on Facebook about how catamarans are faster than monohulls because of science or something, so let's go one step further – let's race in trimarans. And then when our opposition catch up to our innovative design, and launch their own three-hulled racing yacht, we'll go straight to a yacht with 10 hulls. Eat our wind, suckers!

        It's a well-known fact that yachts go faster when they use their spinnakers – so our racing yacht will be made entirely out of spinnaker. You don't get that kind of thinking with your 'years of postgraduate study' and 'industry-specific expertise'.

        You see, I believe in having the freedom to be able to question so-called 'expert' opinion. It's obvious to anyone with an ounce of commonsense that all boats on Sir Russell Coutts' SailGP circuit should have more crew on board – how many? I don't know, maybe 100 – so they can all blow into the sail to make it go faster. Boom! Literally! We'll get rid of lifejacket mandates too. It's my body, so my choice.

        As a precaution, we should only be hiring sailors with really long legs, so that when the wind is too low they can take turns hoping out the back of the boat and pushing the thing with flutter kicks. We did this with a dinghy when I was a kid, and it worked really well. Personal experience matters, people. I hope the sailing community aren't too shrouded in fear to accept my outside-the-box ideas.

        • Prof Rod Jackson is a professor of epidemiology at the University of Auckland and strongly recommends listening to experts in yacht racing, epidemiology and all other fields

    • Patricia Bremner 5.4

      devil

  6. Reality 6

    Would prefer to listen to Professor Jackson's advice on mandates/epidemiology rather than Russell Coutts. Coutts is looking at the issue from a totally self-interested point of view and is not concerned with the community having some safeguards from unvaccinated people, particularly for those who are more vulnerable.

  7. Reality 7

    Andy, obviously you are not keeping up to date with the experts who advise, if vaccinated, people are less likely to get very unwell and/or need hospitalisation.

    • Andy 7.1

      Yes I understand that the vaccines are supposed to make you less sick (making them more of a pre-emptive medicine rather than a vaccine) but it doesn't make a lot of sense that unvaxxed people are more risky

      I did see a study cited somewhere (sorry I don't have the source) which calculated that you would have to exclude 1000 people to prevent one case. So for our rates, we'd have to have a 10,000 person event and exclude the 1000 unvaxxed (for sake of argument) and this would prevent one case. There could be many cases, however, from the rest.

      So even if the thesis that unvaxxed are more risky in society is correct, the measures seem disproportionate to the problem

      • Molly 7.1.1

        Just Googled your sentence, perhaps this one?

        https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.08.21267162v1#:~:text=Findings%20The%20NNEs%20suggest%20that,France%2C%20Israel%2C%20and%20others.

        Findings The NNEs suggest that at least 1,000 unvaccinated people likely need to be excluded to prevent one SARS-CoV-2 transmission event in most types of settings for many jurisdictions, notably Australia, California, Canada, China, France, Israel, and others. The NNEs of almost every jurisdiction examined are well within the range of the NNTs of acetylsalicylic acid (ASA) in primary prevention of cardiovascular disease (CVD) (≥ 250 to 333). This is important since ASA is not recommended for primary prevention of CVD because the harms outweigh the benefits. Similarly, the harms of exclusion may outweigh the benefits. These findings depend on the accuracy of the model assumptions and the baseline infection risk estimates.

        Conclusions Vaccines are beneficial, but the high NNEs suggest that excluding unvaccinated people has negligible benefits for reducing transmissions in many jurisdictions across the globe. This is because unvaccinated people are likely not at significant risk – in absolute terms – of transmitting SARS-CoV-2 to others in most types of settings since current baseline transmission risks are negligible. Consideration of the harms of exclusion is urgently needed, including staffing shortages from losing unvaccinated healthcare workers, unemployment/unemployability, financial hardship for unvaccinated people, and the creation of a class of citizens who are not allowed to fully participate in many areas of society.

        Of relevance also, where is the data behind the mandates? (preferably those that include mental, social and well-being costs)

        • Andy 7.1.1.1

          Molly, thanks for taking the time to find the citation, which does back up my argument

          Cheers

        • McFlock 7.1.1.2

          So the article invents the term "NNE" based solely around transmission? Not sure that will be included in textbooks down the line. Not even sure the peer reviewers will be overly impressed.

          Anyhoo, the main problem at the moment isn't transmission, so much as hospitalisations. Looking at today's cases by vaccine status and comparing it with the same page on the 13 feb, a couple of things stand out.

          884 unvaccinated cases between now and then, with 37 hospitalisation. Yes, lags etc, but a rate of 4.2%
          "Fully vaccinated": 15501 cases between now and then, 219 hospitalisations, 1.4%.

          Looks like omicron might have an unvaccinated hospitalisation rate 4 times the rate for fully vaccinated. Good reason to minimise their exposure to the virus, then.

          • Rosemary McDonald 7.1.1.2.1

            The mandates are about preventing infections, transmission of the virus…the Pfizer product does not do that.

            • lprent 7.1.1.2.1.1

              The statistics disagree with you.

              But you don’t even have to rely on Pfizer, the CDC, or Medsafe to determine this anymore in NZ. The hospital statistics are demonstrating that vaccines are working well in their primary purpose. Stopping people getting too sick – something that (remarkably) you failed to list.

              Just look at the hospital admission graphs by vaccination status or indeed any of the actual data.

              Covid-19: Hospitalisation rates among unvaccinated cases is many times higher than that of cases with two or more vaccine doses

              • Rosemary McDonald

                Hmmm. Slight problem with bias here Prentice.

                They screen upon arrival at hospital whatever the reason one is attending.

                Those who are perceived to be high risk get swabbed…and those not vaccinated are considered high risk.

                Do you see the problem here?

                Tait said a temporary inpatient screening zone had been set up at the hospital.

                "Everyone is screened coming through and if you're considered high-risk, then you'll be off for a swab. If you're unvaccinated, that does put you into the high-risk group."

                https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/461954/covid-19-ill-protesters-urged-to-stay-away-from-hospital

              • gsays

                What do the CDC or Medsafe know that isn't sourced from Pfizer?

                • McFlock

                  Medsafe: who got what and when, for a start. Be it vaccine or virus.

                • lprent

                  A awful lot.

                  FFS, the vaccine has been used in multiple countries for month than a year. Pfizer doesn’t run the reporting and statistics system in any country outside of trials. All medical regulators require trial and production data – which are the Pfizer provided data.

                  However all of the vaccines apart from the Noravax one (too new) have been shoved in millions of arms, the effects monitored in every country they are in, along with downstream data after infection with or without the vaccine in question.

                  Those organisations and others like them are inundated with data tat gets analysed and reanalysed incessantly both by those organisations – and also thousands of others.

                  Unlike the protesters, who seem to thrive on a little bullshit that is a vague rephrase of something that wasn’t understood by someone else.

                  Why do you have to ask?

            • McFlock 7.1.1.2.1.2

              The mandates are about preventing infections, transmission of the virus…the Pfizer product does not do that.

              Reduction means some are prevented, no?

              So cutting the transmission rate (not symptoms) by half, or even a third, counts, too.

              Link suggests you're wrong.

              • Rosemary McDonald

                Did you read the study that used 'Numbers Needed to Exclude' ?

                I recall linking to that study here on TS months ago…when it was becoming clear that the ends did not justify the means. If I recall, they looked at data from around the globe..and did what it is that is done to such data to make their claim.

                • McFlock

                  I literally gave my opinion of that article at 7.1.1.2.

                  I'm not even sure the concept of NNE is inherently valid – smells far to much of a solution looking for a problem.

                  But I'm glad you said you'd posted it months ago. Made me think of the 11 december preprint publication date – does it even include omicron? Well, no, obviously not.

                  Would higher transmissibility push the NNE up, or down? How do various transmission efficacy values for the vaccines affect that number? Don't worry, these are rhetorical questions for me to ponder upon.

                  • Rosemary McDonald

                    Yes…those numbers were with respect to the vaccine efficacy with respect to earlier variants, especially Delta.

                    With Omicron…clearly more transmissible and clearly, as His Honor noted, more inclined to scoff at the feeble efforts of the vaccines to stop this transmission.

                    Why don't we move on from this and put our energies into building a health system we can be proud of that will be resilient and fully staffed.

                    Please, let TPTB stop all mandates and let those we need the most right now get back to work. As what has happened in the UK.

                    • McFlock

                      God no. 1/3 reduction in transmission and a large reduction in hospital demand is much better than abject surrender as we approach the peak of the wave.

                      Even if I gave a shit about the wilfully unvaccinated.

                    • lprent

                      Please, let TPTB stop all mandates and let those we need the most right now get back to work. As what has happened in the UK.

                      The UK has had 2 years of community transmission. More than a year of vaccines. It has a high level of community immunity, because many have had both infection and vaccines.

                      It has a hospital system that is at least an order of magnitude more capable than ours to handle load. The UK is having problems at present with overloaded hospitals. That is after 2 years of dealing with covid-19.

                      Where as we have had about a few months of widespread community transmission.

                      I simply don’t think that you quite understand just how nail-biting the next month or two is going to be like. Think of Northern Italy back in March 2020, but with a ‘mild’ disease that probably has a similar mortality rate in the elderly, and massively more infectious.

                      The only thing that is constraining the mortality rate is that the fully vaccinated are less likely to require hospitalisation.

          • Molly 7.1.1.2.2

            The data for the mandates provided to the court seem to be inconsistent with the mandates:

            The court accepted that vaccination has a significant beneficial effect in limiting serious illness, hospitalisation, and death, including with the Omicron variant. However, it was less effective in reducing infection and transmission of Omicron than had been the case with other variants of Covid-19.

            "In essence, the order mandating vaccinations for police and NZDF staff was imposed to ensure the continuity of the public services, and to promote public confidence in those services, rather than to stop the spread of Covid-19. Indeed health advice provided to the government was that further mandates were not required to restrict the spread of Covid-19. I am not satisfied that continuity of these services is materially advanced by the order," the Judge said.

            "Covid-19 clearly involves a threat to the continuity of police and NZDF services. That is because the Omicron variant in particular is so transmissible. But that threat exists for both vaccinated and unvaccinated staff. I am not satisfied that the order makes a material difference, including because of the expert evidence before the court on the effects of vaccination on Covid-19 including the Delta and Omicron variants."

            Good evidential bases should exist in support of mandates as well.

      • McFlock 7.1.2

        1000, 1, 10,000, 1000, 1, many.

        See the wee inconsistency in your argument?

      • Incognito 7.1.3

        … (making them more of a pre-emptive medicine rather than a vaccine) …

        In other words, the annual flu vaccine is also “more of a pre-emptive medicine”?

        Isn’t that a clever semantic trick to score a meaningless silly point?

        If you misrepresent and/or misunderstand the important role these vaccines play in public health then you may want to stop now and educate yourself first before commenting here without any credibility. As it is, you’re simply sucking up time & energy from others dealing with your (wilful?) ignorance and misleading comments.

        Studies that you cannot cite but only vaguely remember and also possibly poorly understood are next to worthless for quality debate and public discourse. In fact, they can be counter-productive (and suck up more oxygen).

        • Andy 7.1.3.1

          Molly kindly provided the citation upthread.

          My point about "pre-emptive" medicine is not silly.

          I think the WHO changed the definition of vaccine.

          We could be less confrontational and use a term like "leaky and non-sterilizing" vaccine,

          A traditional vaccine for, say, smallpox sterilizes – i.e removes – the virus via herd immunity

          At 12,000 new cases today, I think that is clearly false for this jab.

          There are less people in hospital than for Alpha or Delta, but this could be the jab or an attenuated virus – I don't think this is clear at this stage

          • McFlock 7.1.3.1.1

            I think the WHO changed the definition of vaccine.

            You might think that, but it's likely bullshit. Closest I've seen so far is the anti-vax meme that merriam-webster changed their definition in the last year or so. This is true, but omits that both Collins and the OED have had definitions that encompass mRNA for a solid 25 years or more, with exemplars going back to 1983.

            When did WHO change their definition?

          • Incognito 7.1.3.1.2

            Yes, on this forum some commenters sometimes help out other commenters who are too lazy to look up their own sources, cite them properly, and link to them.

            Such lazy commenters often like to parrot terms that they don’t fully understand and indulge in semantic trickery to mask their ignorance and lack of science literacy skills, in this case.

            For example, what on Earth is a "leaky and non-sterilizing" vaccine? You don’t have the WHO definition for this, do you?

            Vaccines that induce true sterilizing immunity are quite rare, in fact. Arguably, sterilizing immunity is a bit of a textbook oddity nowadays. None of these labels truly matter and they don’t change the impact vaccines have clinically and for public health – sometimes this impact is huge and near perfect such as with smallpox.

            You also don’t need sterilizing immunity to achieve herd immunity.

            Sterilizing immunity is not removing the virus via herd immunity. Obviously, you have idea of what you’re blathering on about! Please stop this nonsense!

            PS do you consider the flu vaccine also a pre-emptive medicine rather than a vaccine?

            BTW, nice edit of your comment and good save.

  8. Andy 8

    Breaking: the NZ Police have won their court case that the no jab/no job mandates are illegal

    • lprent 8.1

      Very limited decision in the High Court. Only applies to Police and Defence.

      Pretty certain to be challenged all the way up to the Supreme court because just offhand I can think of several scenarios where both services will need this to be made part of the conditions of employment. For instance if there are biological warfare concerns is an obvious one. But I suspect that the Police Act and the Armed Forces Act should be made more explicit regardless of any further legal decisions.

      Justice Cooke said the mandate affected only a small number of personnel. There was 164 police in an overall workforce of 15,682 the order affected 164 personnel and 115 in an overall Defence workforce of 15,480.

      In the short term, these staff will probably be moved sideways and isolated.

      BTW: The word isn’t illegal. It is unlawful. If you don’t know the difference then look it up some time and educate yourself on the difference.

      • Rosemary McDonald 8.1.1

        Only applies to Police and Defence.

        Heard of the snowball effect?

        Chill Prentice…the pandemic is done. Is there some part of However, it was less effective in reducing infection and transmission of Omicron that you do not understand.

        • lprent 8.1.1.1

          Heard of the snowball effect?

          Ever hear of the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court?

          BTW: I’d anticipate several more years of the pandemic. sigh Why would you assume that Omicron is the last variant?

          • McFlock 8.1.1.1.1

            and if all else fails, law change under urgency.

            • Rosemary McDonald 8.1.1.1.1.1

              and if all else fails, law change under urgency.

              Yep. Been there and done that and with the Ministry of health to boot.

              Trouble is with the Misery…not only vindictive but really shit at applying reality to their policies that they somehow manage to convince whichever numpties think they were elected to run the show to pass legislation to enforce.

              SSDD

              • McFlock

                In this case, cry me a river. If it's even necessary.

              • lprent

                It is an interesting decision. RNZ

                The actual number of affected staff – 164 police staff and 115 NZDF staff is very small compared to the overall workforce of over 15,000 for each of the police and NZDF. Moreover there is no evidence that this number is any different from the number that would have remained unvaccinated and employed had the matter simply been dealt with by the pre-existing internal vaccine policies applied by police and NZDF. Neither is there any hard evidence that this number of personnel materially effects the continuity of NZDF and police services.

                So it looks like he struck down the health order specific to the forces, but also left open the path of just using the internal policies of the NZDF and police to achieve the same effect. Those of course are not subject to NZBORA, as they are effectively employment law.

                It is going to be interesting when this gets looked at. Because it effectively strikes directly at the validity of essentially all epidemic/pandemic orders under the Health Act in the future.

                I’d be interested in the actual decision if anyone has a link.

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  Should appear here in time…http://www.nzlii.org/nz/cases/NZHC/2022/

                  • lprent

                    Thanks, doing too many things at once right now.

                  • lprent

                    The actual decision PDF is here.

                    I’ll leave the press release for the media.

                  • lprent

                    The actual decision PDF is here.

                    I’ll leave the press release for the media.

                    So COVID-19 Public Health Response Act 2020.

                    s9 and s11 – so it was an order made by the Minister rather than the Director-General of Health.

                    That is interesting, the actual issue that appears to have guided the decision is here. There simply wasn’t any evidence about how much the order would or was expected to have changed vaccination behaviour.

                    [74] There is no evidence before the Court that this number would have been any
                    different had the matter been addressed by the Police’s internal vaccination policy (as
                    is the case of approximately 4,000 civil staff). Neither do I have any evidence that the
                    mandate in the Order had a material effect on overall vaccination rates for Police. For
                    example there is no evidence that the rate of those being vaccinated at the end of
                    October 2021 was in decline and that the Government mandate introduced through the
                    Order was needed to materially address that decline. Neither do I have any evidence
                    of what is thought the total vaccination rates would have been without the
                    Government’s mandate introduced by the Order.

                    and

                    [76] Neither has the Court been provided with an explanation of how the existence
                    of a number such as 164 unvaccinated personnel, 60 of whom were terminated,
                    materially addressed the ability of the Police to provide continuity of services…

                    and in s77

                    Moreover this
                    justification for the Order seems to be close to one based on administrative
                    convenience, which is not a compelling justification for limiting rights.

                    Plus other sections around that point. Like s80

                    Both the applicant and Crown can be expected to file
                    evidence, and indeed have filed evidence and arguments going beyond what might
                    have been before the decision-maker at the time of making his decision.40
                    That is because it is the Court that must be persuaded by the Crown that the measure is
                    demonstrably justified.41 Secondly, the measure has not yet had legal effect as it
                    requires vaccination by 1 March 2022

                    Much the same for the NZDF.

                    More evidence issues about s92.

                    [96] But the burden still is on the Crown to demonstrate that the limitation on the
                    applicants’ rights is reasonable and demonstrably justified in light of the precautionary
                    principle (or the version of it described above). Ultimately this case may be thought
                    to come down to a contest between the fundamental rights of the applicants and this
                    version of the precautionary principle.

                    [97] I am not satisfied that the Crown has put forward sufficient evidence to justify
                    the measures that have been imposed, even giving it some benefit of the doubt.

                    And that last quote was it in a nutshell. OK that is a lesson for the crown. Go armed with at least written evidence to present to the court to show why NZBORA should be overridden even for small numbers. You cannot just rely on the legislation coverage.

                    What was interesting was that the applicants case on that basis was just as bad. Both sides were concentrating in the interpretation of the 2020 act, and not enough on the balance issues in s5 of NZBORA. Effectively Cooke agreed with virtually every part of the Crowns case including the s5 NZBORA as either being correct or possible.

                    The crown failed because they didn’t provide evidence about why the employment termination was necessary under the s11 order.

                    It isn’t a change in the legal basis of the 2020 Act or NZBORA.

                    Essentially it is an instruction about minimum standards of what the crown is expected to supply the court to justify legislative solutions in a particular case to override s5 of NZBORA. Because ultimately in a border line case, the judgment about balance is in the hands of the court.

                    That is my brief look at it. It really doesn’t help the anti-mandate protesters much. Because in any other cases, the crown can come loaded for bear. In this case the crown relied on assertions, not evidence. I don’t think that they will make that mistake twice.

                • Shanreagh

                  So it looks like he struck down the health order specific to the forces, but also left open the path of just using the internal policies of the NZDF and police to achieve the same effect. Those of course are not subject to NZBORA, as they are effectively employment law.

                  Yes and also this

                  "In essence, the order mandating vaccinations for police and NZDF staff was imposed to ensure the continuity of the public services, and to promote public confidence in those services, rather than to stop the spread of Covid-19. Indeed health advice provided to the government was that further mandates were not required to restrict the spread of Covid-19. I am not satisfied that continuity of these services is materially advanced by the order," he said.

                  and

                  Moreover there is no evidence that this number is any different from the number that would have remained unvaccinated and employed had the matter simply been dealt with by the pre-existing internal vaccine policies applied by police and NZDF. Neither is there any hard evidence that this number of personnel materially effects the continuity of NZDF and police services.

                  "Covid-19 clearly involves a threat to the continuity of police and NZDF services. That is because the Omicron variant in particular is so transmissible. But that threat exists for both vaccinated and unvaccinated staff. I am not satisfied that the order makes a material difference, including because of the expert evidence before the court on the effects of vaccination on Covid-19 including the Delta and Omicron variants.

                  "I should make it clear what this case is not about. The order being set aside in the present case was not implemented for the purposes of limiting the spread of Covid-19.

                  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/462265/covid-19-high-court-quashes-unlawful-vaccine-mandate-for-police-and-defence-force-staff

                  "I should make it clear what this case is not about. The order being set aside in the present case was not implemented for the purposes of limiting the spread of Covid-19.

                  This is key, the fact that Defence & Police could have achieved the same result using their own vaccination policies.

                  What I am amazed at is that he gave space for the looney aborted cells theory.

                  https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-do-the-covid-19-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-cells

                  https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/here-are-the-facts-about-fetal-cell-lines-and-covid-19-vaccines

                  https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210918/some-medications-also-tied-to-religious-vaccine-exemption

                  • lprent

                    What I am amazed at is that he gave space for the looney aborted cells theory.

                    The aborted cells is legit in terms of the religious beliefs. It would be the same if it was the cells of a pig to a muslim or the killing of a cow to various hindu sects.

                    If you allow one religous belief, then all religions carry equal weight. You’d even have to allow the Dorfl argument (Patchett) about atheists if someone had prayed over the development. Or vegans – which would be easy enough to argue is a belief system equivalent to a religion.

                    But all of that is moot if you can show that all religions are treated equally AND the public interest was demonstratable enough to override the balance.

                    It is going to be an interesting test. If they had passed enough evidence they could have overridden NZBORA. If they had framed it as a job requirement without enabling legislation, not hard with NZDF and police, the NZBORA would not even be a consideration – it would have just been a question of informing and notice. The mechanics of employment law.

              • Incognito

                Only a numpty would ignore the fact that the mandates were put into place before Omicron and justified by the same Judge when challenged previously. The Judge referred to other earlier variants in his decision (e.g. the quote in your own comment @ 8.2). Your misplaced and biased glee is clouding your thinking and judgement.

                SSDD

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  Which particular case are you referring to? Do you have a link please?

                • observer

                  Yes, the very same judge, in that Stuff link above:

                  "In November last year the same judge decided the rights of some aviation security workers to refuse medical treatment had been limited but in that case the judge found it was a limit demonstrably justified under the Bill of Rights Act because vaccination contributed to minimising the risk of outbreak or spread."

                  Again, if we accept the authority of the court, then we … accept the authority of the court.

                  I for one welcome our new pro-vaccine overlords, and look forward to seeing them wave some new signs outside Parliament.

                  "Judge Says Jab"

                  "Good On Your Honour"

            • tsmithfield 8.1.1.1.1.2

              Do you think the government would bother changing the law under urgency?

              Firstly, the mandates have nearly had their day now with Omicron so prevalent and contagious regardless of vaccination state.

              Also, I think that would just cause massive protests from the anti-mandate crowd.

              So, I don't think there is any upside for the government going there.

              • McFlock

                Meh. Don't really care. If they have to they will. And people will wail and dance, but in the end if it needs to happen, it will.

                • I would agree with that so far as more protest goes.

                  So, the key thing will be whether the mandates achieving anything going forward.

                  I don't think it ever looks good for a government when they legislate themselves out of legal decisions.

                  So, they will have to think it is worth the trouble.

                  • McFlock

                    Well, there's internal policy changes and then the full list of progression for case appeals before it comes to that.

              • lprent

                I don’t think that they will bother changing the law under urgency. They don’t need to under this judgement. By the time any other case makes it to court, this phase of the pandemic will be over, and currently we can’t see any other nasty variants coming.

                They do need to make the Health Act more explicit in the ways that it overrides health orders, either by an appealed decision or by normal business of the house.

              • Tricledrown

                Those 1 or 200 staff should just have rapid tests before entering a shift that should be easy enough.

                Now is the time the police need everyone on board.

          • Rosemary McDonald 8.1.1.1.2

            Ever hear of the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court?

            Hah! You asking me…https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/govt-will-not-appeal-family-carers-decision

            One of the better moments of my life was watching, in person the 5 Appeal Court Judges come to the conclusion that the Ministry of Health and Crown Law had not a leg to stand on in their vendetta against the chosen family carers of some of the most seriously high needs disabled kiwis.

      • tsmithfield 8.1.2

        It might only apply to police and defence in this specific case. But, it will likely be used as a precedent for claims from other groups, and is likely to leave a lot of employers in a quandry about what they are allowed to do.

        Plus, it will undoubtably reinvigorate the protesters, and I think will result in a lot more coming to Wellington.

        • Shanreagh 8.1.2.1

          Not sure that it could be used as a precedent, successfully though. The following cases that wanted to use it would have to make sure that their fact situations were 'on all fours' with Defence/Police powers that Defence/Police have already.

          Not many private sector employers/employees would be in the same situation.

          I also think he may have misdirected himself or given undue weight to the abortion cell lines argument.

    • Rosemary McDonald 8.2

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/not-demonstrably-justified-high-court-upholds-challenge-to-police-and-nzdf-vaccination-mandates/LMAUM7LZWV6FFQWAKKJFLKYLIE/

      The court accepted that vaccination has a significant beneficial effect in limiting serious illness, hospitalisation, and death, including with the Omicron variant. However, it was less effective in reducing infection and transmission of Omicron than had been the case with other variants of Covid-19

      Does not require much in the way of commentary.

      Yeehaaaa!

      • Barfly 8.2.1

        " However, it was less effective in reducing infection and transmission of Omicron"

        Err I'm pretty sure that is not news to anyone.

        • Rosemary McDonald 8.2.1.1

          Yes…but a Judge has writ it down…gives it heft.

          Word to the wise…breaching human rights in order to 'protect the health system' is not justified when a) the health system was buckling long before Covid was a thing, and b) the obvious answer would have been to fix the health system.

  9. Adrian 9

    5 deaths today, but wait there's more, they are from infections of 2 to 3 weeks ago and todays positives are 12,011 so what do you think the death rate will be in 3 weeks time?

    Considering that the unvaccinated share of deaths so far around the world is very high it may mean we only have a few more weeks to wait for the mob in Wellington to thin out.

    That's unfortunate for their plan to take over the world.

    • McFlock 9.1

      It's pretty sad, really.

      Let's say a thousand protesters get it. 10-40 hospitalised. Maybe ten dead (might be old figures – 1-5 dead?).

      Any protest that resulted in those numbers of hospitalisations and deaths all at once (e.g. turns into riot or there's a platform collapse) would result in national shock and mourning.

      • felix 9.1.1

        Why stop at a thousand? If we're just making up numbers to be sad about, let's call it a trillion, with a billion dead.

        • McFlock 9.1.1.1

          Why stop at a thousand? You want to see my working? Fine.

          I figured 5,000 unique individuals attending the protest. Seems reasonable to be, what with their concerts and suchlike. Probably much higher.

          20% case rate – again, seems reasonable. Might be lower, though. More a delta number than omicron.

          1% CFR. Again, more delta than omicron, but possibly not too far off.

          I don't think anywhere close to a trillion people have visited the parliament protest. Do you?

  10. Adrian 10

    We may be in for a shock about how many people die in this outbreak. Because of the superb management of the original Covid waves the number of fatalities was very low and as has often been stated most had co-morbidities. The large balance of those who were compromised but protected over the last 2 years are still with us, much to their and their families delight no doubt, but we must redouble our efforts now because of complacency about Omicron being "mild ", no its not. It is going to be a scary number. The government of course will get the blame for it, not the baying horde led by Hoskings, Seymour, Bishop and all the other Let-It-Rippers.

    • Barfly 10.1

      Assuming I'm still alive I will be happy if NZ's death toll stays under 3000 crying

      • Rosemary McDonald 10.1.1

        In 2019 there were 34,260 deaths registered in NZ. That's about 2500 per week.

        https://www.stats.govt.nz/information-releases/births-and-deaths-year-ended-december-2019

        I have no doubt that many of our fellow Kiwis who shuffle off their mortal coils over the next few months will also have Omicron…we're all going to encounter it.

        Most will pass on with Omicron rather than of it.

        • Incognito 10.1.1.1

          In 2019 there were 34,260 deaths registered in NZ. That's about 2500 per week.

          Nope – 659 per week or 2855 per month.

          • Rosemary McDonald 10.1.1.1.1

            Yep…my bad.

            (Was debating whether a celebratory beer was in order with the other fucking filth unvaxxed person in the house. Its also raining…believe me…as much cause for glee in our neck of the woods.)

            This decision will not affect us personally, but has the potential to positively affect a number of Young People we are emotionally attached to…some of whom have suffered more than 'mild and transitory/ sore arm and flu symptoms'.

        • Nic the NZer 10.1.1.2

          52 * 2500 = 130,000

          • Rosemary McDonald 10.1.1.2.1

            As above. My mistake. Consider me self flagellating as I write.

            • gsays 10.1.1.2.1.1

              "Consider me self flagellating as I write."

              Ahh, so you decided on a Tui, it was only an arithmetic boo-boo.

              I am toasting the court finding the mandates unlawful with Stoke's Juicy Hazy IPA. A lovely gentle session drop.

              Plenty of green grass growth here in the 'Tu.

              • Rosemary McDonald

                No to the Tui. A cheap bavarian brew that comes in a can large enough to share with a friend who also seldom imbibes. Has a kick like one of those horse type things…

                Further celebrating with homegrown spuds and home killed lamb roast. (Poor wee thing had to go because low grass growth. Sorted for now with 22mls in 1 1/2 hours. You can literally see the kikuyu grow.)

  11. observer 11

    The obvious lesson will go over the heads of the deluded residents of Camp Covid, but let's spell it out anyway:

    A court decision on mandates was not affected in any way by the presence of protesters at parliament. The judicial process would have progressed in exactly the same way, hearing exactly the same legal arguments, if there had not been a single tent on the lawn.

    The irony will escape them. There's a win in the courts because NZ has an independent judiciary, not “dictator Ardern”. In fact, over the past 2 years there have been several successful challenges to Covid-related government decisions.

    But if the protesters are now claiming vindication because courts uphold the law, then they have to accept that courts uphold the law. They don't get to say "we only accept the decisions we like, we'll reject all the others".

    Bear that in mind when their own cases come before the judge.

    Like this:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime/covid-19-auckland-lockdown-protest-destiny-churchs-paul-thompson-set-to-plead-guilty/MSBJBMT32UBYXR7R675SVNOYGY/

    • Rosemary McDonald 11.1

      Believe it or not…there has been a few, (more than a few actually) real moments of positive connection between the deluded and the cops. They are us and all that.

      • Gypsy 11.1.1

        Earlier today, I was happily bobbing around below the Auckland Harbour Bridge waiting for a decent snapper to bite when I was surprised by a ruckus up above. The other Gypsy in the boat reminded me about the protest, so we upped lines and moved to a position where we could see the protestors. Next minute, we're in the middle of 5 or so other boats all carrying signs and cheering on the protestors. If you see a tiny (16ft) motor boat bobbing around looking lost on TV, that's us. Anyway, my point was that the police seemed to be doing an excellent job at stewarding the protest peacefully across the bridge.

        • Rosemary McDonald 11.1.1.1

          More importantly…did you catch any fish? Moon on the wane and at 5.45am was directly overhead. If I could, I'd be out before dawn tomorrow.wink

          Just got a call from Welly…they had a brilliant day hob- nobbing and standing with their signs and passing the time of day with the local constabulary.

          Now the caller I have known all their life, and they have a very sensitive nose and an almost OCD aversion to unhygienic conditions. 'How on earth did you cope' I asked 'with the river of filth?' ' Did you cop a poorly aimed turd or have to dodge the showers of spit?'

          None of that. The cops were doing the 'gidday' and raised eyebrow thing to all and sundry and the Camp was clean and tidy and smelled vaguely of drying out hay. There was one large and very upset dreadlocked chappy who got up in the faces of the cops (and I guess his rant could have been spittle -flecked), but he was quickly placated and removed by other protestors.

          My caller has been forced to work from home…virtually trespassed from their workplace… but their biggest worry is that their students (tertiary level) also have to be jabbed and they are in the most high risk group for myocarditis.

          • Gypsy 11.1.1.1.1

            One keeper snapper. Several others hooked, but I'm super strict about putting back anything even near the size limit.

            Sounds like the protest camp is not as bad as the media are painting. Why am I not surprised.

        • Rosemary McDonald 11.1.2.1

          See my reply to Gypsy. I'm thinking that in the real world there is always the odd person who is going to behave like a shit-slinging caged monkey.

          Spitting, dragging naked women by their hair and then kneeling on their neck, swearing, eye gouging…takes all sorts.

          • Gypsy 11.1.2.1.1

            I spent a couple of hours this week with a group thinking about holding a protest about a non-covid issue. Their greatest concern was attracting fringe nutters who would wreck the integrity of their cause. It is unfortunately a common thing with protests.

          • Matiri 11.1.2.1.2

            Yes indeed, some very odd people.

  12. Whispering Kate 12

    Not sure what header this should be under but it sure is a poke in the eye to the Government. The Police and NZDF are being told by the courts processes that their unvaccinated staff are now allowed to be reinstated at their work. Woohoo – personally think it is wrong but the PM now has to digest this news.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/not-demonstrably-justified-high-court-upholds-challenge-to-police-and-nzdf-vaccination-mandates-police-suspend-terminations/LMAUM7LZWV6FFQWAKKJFLKYLIE/

  13. Peter 13

    Clay Drummond has to go to hospital because of a suspected heart attack?

    Hell, I hope he didn't have to have any sort of medication or if he did, he had time to run it past the troops at the Beehive.

  14. observer 14

    You might think this is satire. It's not. It's real. And … unreal.

    • McFlock 14.1

      I buy the occasional rock for craftwork shiny things, and now I can't go to the biggest store in town because two years ago they advertised agate or sumsuch as a treatment for covid.

      bugger.

    • joe90 14.2

      I have an in-law who sells crystal woo. I doubt she believes a word she says but she makes more than a few $$$s with her bullshit.

  15. gsays 15

    Deleted comment.

  16. Matiri 16

    Some wise words from a policeman on the front line of the protest dealing with the heat, smell of overflowing portaloos and some seriously unwell people (who also smell really bad).

    "We talk to a lot of them here, and it’s sad to see the state of these people, many are incoherent in their ramblings. Some days it feels like we are managing a mental health facility rather than a protest.”

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300526493/no-place-for-kids-police-officer-talks-about-life-on-the-frontline-of-the-protest

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 16.1

      Absolutely agree. The Sad, Mad and Bad. Sometimes all 3 in the same person. And the poor wee kids. What choice do they have? Seriously need to leave……

  17. I have no words to express my . . . my . . . no, I just can't!

    Watch the video and cringe!

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