Countering Conspiracy – the Green Party is not in a Civil War

54 comments on “Countering Conspiracy – the Green Party is not in a Civil War ”

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1. Darien Fenton 1

   14 May 2023 at 4:42 pm

   He has annoyed me for years. The sad thing is some people take him (and others like him) seriously. Perhaps if he got out more, he might find the time to talk with real people who would find his views bewildering, not to mention arrogant.
   • bwaghorn 1.1

     14 May 2023 at 5:36 pm

     Gave up reading anything he does years ago, cut and past king that hasn't had an original idea ever.
     • Patricia Bremner 1.1.1

       14 May 2023 at 8:02 pm

       100% Bryce makes a decision, then cherry picks supporting materials and views.

       He has an apparent agenda, as all negative comment is one way traffic.

       I too, stopped reading his self important cant.
2. Ad 2

   14 May 2023 at 5:04 pm

   Wait a sec.

   In election 2017 the Greens got 6% after tracking around 10% for many months beforehand.

   In January 2018 they were tracking at 10% average but in election 2020 they got 7.9% and the support of an electoral seat.

   In January 2021 they were tracking higher than Act, but come election year they are heading into 6%.

   And of course despite achieving a fair bit, in 2023 the members including the caucus decided to fire James Shaw after being breadcrumbed into it by Matthew Hooten, failed… and James promised to be all fire and brimestone on the governments' ass (remember that) …

   .. now in the middle of the list conference, 5 months out from the election, their Number 3 candidate decides to self-immolate and leave the party with a big public Fuck You.

   And somehow this scale of Green underperformance is due to Bryce Edwards.

   Incognito pass me whatever you're smoking.
   • Incognito 2.1

     14 May 2023 at 5:21 pm

     And somehow this scale of Green underperformance is due to Bryce Edwards.

     Incognito pass me whatever you're smoking.

     

     I would love to share it around but it won’t do you any good; you need new reading glasses.

     BTW, I can’t remember James Shaw being ‘fired’ by the Green Party members and caucus. You might have to refresh my memory, as I’ve been smoking too much.
     • Ad 2.1.1

       14 May 2023 at 6:21 pm

       Even the most left-inclined survey the Newshub-Reid, has Greens down 1.4% or over 10% of their support.

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132038932/political-poll-labour-and-national-neckandneck-and-te-pti-mori-could-still-be-kingmaker

       Wake the fuck up Greens stop the internal damage and improve your actual voter popularity.
       • Incognito 2.1.1.1

         14 May 2023 at 7:11 pm

         Thanks, I hadn’t seen that new poll.
   • mickysavage 2.2

     14 May 2023 at 8:21 pm

     Little bit tough Ad.

     It is really difficult for a party to present a cohesive professional unified front that the media will talk positively about (think Act).

     And to have a vibrant member controlled party that will have differences of opinion that can be presented as a negative thing.

     Bryce is an expert at commenting on the politics and ignoring the need for a dignified open discussion about policy.
     • Ad 2.2.1

       14 May 2023 at 8:39 pm

       Political argument is what you have left when you burn most of your policies and just react. So list conferences become the only political narrative lift.

       Unless Hipkins or indeed Shaw can generate a policy diet more substantial than dipping yet another sausage roll into yet another saucer of tomato sauce, this is what we are going to get for the next 5 months to election.
   • SPC 2.3

     14 May 2023 at 9:24 pm

     National were also tracking higher in the months before the 2017 election …

     Labour in Jan 2021 were also much higher than they are now

     And since then despite achieving a bit Labour has lost the number one on their list

     And somehow the scale of the Labour under performance yada yada

     Green under performance can be explained by the fact that they do not decide anything, and Edwards like the Teals in the DP (including some loud anti woke and anti-Maori ones – such as GA) can express lip service to the environment wing values, if not the woke.

     Yet “hilariously” (totally unaware of the total paucity of supporting evidence or basic logic) they say the Greens are captured by the woke middle class – because Labour have only acted in that area. Of course this claim is based on Labour blocking Green policy on taxation and incomes, rental and state housing (as well as environment).
   • Bearded Git 2.4

     14 May 2023 at 10:36 pm

     Ad …the Greens, despite being written off many times, have been in parliament for 27 years continuously and are polling around 8% now.

     I look forward to a progressive Lab/Gr/Tmp government in October.

     Or are you advocating a Luxon/Seymour horror show Ad?
   • That_guy 2.5

     15 May 2023 at 9:19 am

     I agree Ad.
3. Hunter Thompson II 3

   14 May 2023 at 5:20 pm

   The first sentence is correct. As for the rest of the comments, some academics have only themselves to blame for the loss of trust.

   Take as an example the witch hunt a group at Auckland University mounted against the Listener 7 in 2021.
4. Craig Haggis 4

   14 May 2023 at 5:49 pm

   This article is utterly unconvincing. The central argument boils down to 'not it's not, all is good here'. Well, it's not. It's faction v faction in the Greens, leadership turmoil and people being shafted. If that's not civil war I don't know what is. And I don't need Edwards to tell me that!
   • Incognito 4.1

     14 May 2023 at 7:20 pm

     Once you start boiling down a long Post on a complex and nuanced topic you’ll end up with indeterminate dark residue at the bottom that makes for poor comments. However, I don’t mind an opposing opinion, as long as it isn’t made under false pretence.
5. adam 5

   14 May 2023 at 6:04 pm

   Sorry to be a green hater, but labour is a majority government.

   The greens are not actually in government, adjunct sure, but in – no.

   If I was being generous to the greens, I'd say Shaw did OK all things considered – even if he is not my cup of tea.

   Oh and Jan Logie did a bloody good job. Up hill all the way.
6. Phillip ure 6

   14 May 2023 at 6:04 pm

   The greens have always had factions..

   When I was active in the greens I was in the vegan/animal rights faction..

   Membership: one…

   It was a lonely campaign..
7. Phillip ure 7

   14 May 2023 at 6:09 pm

   One way to evaluate how assiduously ms davidson discharged her ministerial responsibilities as minister for the homeless…is to note that in her third year in the role..her profile can be summed up as:

   Ms davidson minister for the homeless..

   Who knew…?

   Her silence has been resounding..
   • bwaghorn 7.1

     14 May 2023 at 6:57 pm

     Yeah but she's really nice, (except the little racist thing )
   • The Chairman 7.2

     14 May 2023 at 7:32 pm

     She was on TV1 News re homelessness last month.

     https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/04/28/minister-defends-lack-of-spending-to-tackle-homelessness/
8. weka 8

   14 May 2023 at 7:31 pm

   Very good post Incognito, thanks.
   • Incognito 8.1

     14 May 2023 at 7:47 pm

     Thanks.

     If nothing else, a bit of counter-balance.
9. Phillip ure 9

   14 May 2023 at 7:47 pm

   Suggestion for ms. davidson on how to spend some of that money..

   Work with councils to provide ablution blocks..

   Give the homeless the basic dignity of a hot shower..

   Too much to ask..?

   Bad use of those funds earmarked to help the homeless..?
   • Stuart Munro 9.1

     14 May 2023 at 8:19 pm

     There is an outfit called Orange Sky that provides showers and laundry facilities for homeless folk. If they're doing it right, funding to expand would be appropriate.
10. Corey 10

    15 May 2023 at 1:41 am

    Yes a party not at war with itself totally has mps laughing on air about gossip about another mp and then leaks screenshots to the media just after the preliminary party list ranking comes out and then has weeks and weeks of staffers and members with each side leaking statements to the press accusing the other side of racism bullying , leaking further screenshots and has a large amount of membership resignations.

    Then we have a rogue mp resigning over a mean text after attacking the party leadership and after trying to delay rankings…. Oh and let's not forget it's a party where the membership tried to roll the leadership and it took far too long for certain mps to rule out challenging shaw.

    If that's not a civil war , what is…

    Bryce is one of the better commentators in NZ politics and one of the only mainstream political commentators who mentions class.

    The fact that he's hated by the left and right depending on what he's said that week means he's doing something right, both the left and right each literally think the entire media is biased against them and both sides want to silence media voices who disagree with them.

    The left has had a particularly ridiculous bee in it's bonnet about Bryce because he interviewed protesters at the parliamentary protest last year, which is heresy according to the left that ana academic and a political commentator might want to interview and research a radical political movement that occupied land directly across the road from his work.

    The left is furious that he interviewed these people, as if his style of coverage was the same as agreeing with them.

    The left is also grumpy that he questions the disinformation project an agency that makes bold claims but refuses to release it's data, because middle class lefty's need to believe that anyone who disagrees with them is a frothing fascist, transphobic white supremacist.

    You can disagree with Bryce, I disagree with him all the time but we don't need to "expose" people or do as many would like, try to get him fired for the sin of disagreements.

    The idea that we'll expose and destroy people for not agreeing with us is why high quality candidates refuse to stand for office and why the public hates politics

    Instead of attacking a guy with an opinion, the Greens should focus on giving people reasons to vote for them and getting more seats cos right now they look like a party stuck in idle focusing on themselves rather than a party hellbent on being a part of govt
    • That_guy 10.1

      15 May 2023 at 9:46 am

      Well said.
    • nukefacts 10.2

      15 May 2023 at 10:22 am

      Agree 100%. I'm a lifelong green / Labour voter, but not this year. The hate and violence they showed women at the Stand Up for Women event in Albert park this year was the last straw for me.
    • Incognito 10.3

      16 May 2023 at 11:20 am

      Thanks Corey, your comment seems to be the most substantial counter argument to the OP. I disagree with you on several points and would like to challenge some of the claims you make in your comment.

      First, you say that the Greens are in a Civil War. You refer to some historical incidents that were resolved quickly and peacefully, and I don’t think that those reflect the current state of the party. This is subjective, of course. The Greens have a democratic and consensus-based process for making decisions and resolving conflicts, which allows for diverse views and perspectives to be heard and respected, in constructive debate and dialogue. In this way, they are different from the other NZ political parties and quite possibly the least well understood.

      Second, you assert that Bryce Edwards is one of the better commentators in NZ politics because he’s one of the only ones who mentions class. However, you don’t explain why you think his commentary is better or more accurate than others. You also do not acknowledge any of the biases or agendas that he may have, or any of the flaws or errors that he may make in his analysis. You seem to imply that because he’s hated by both the left and the right, he must be doing something right. However, this is a fallacy of false balance, which assumes that the truth lies somewhere in the middle of two extremes. In reality, Edwards may be wrong on both sides, or he may be right on some issues and wrong on others.

      Third, you claim that ‘the left’ has a “particularly ridiculous bee in it's bonnet” [sic] about Edwards because he interviewed protesters at the parliamentary protest last year. However, you do not address any of the criticisms or genuine concerns that the left has raised about the contents, rather than style, of Edwards' coverage of the protest. You also don’t acknowledge any of the ethical or professional issues that may arise from Edwards' role as both an academic and a journalist. You seem to suggest that because he’s an academic and a political commentator, he has a right or a duty to interview and research any political movement that interests him. However, this doesn’t mean that he can ignore or violate any of the standards or principles that apply to his work, such as accuracy, balance, fairness, transparency, accountability, et cetera. If he were to limit himself to writing opinion pieces for TDB, it would be a different situation. He can’t have it both ways.

      Fourth, you say that ‘the left’ is furious that Edwards questions The Disinformation Project. I hope to address this in a different Post soon. However, you seem to take Edwards’ accusation of TDP at face value. If so, this is a fallacy of false authority, which assumes that because someone is an expert or a critic in one field, they are automatically right or credible in another field. In reality, Edwards may not have enough knowledge or evidence to question or challenge TDP's work.

      Fifth, you say that we don't need to "expose" people or try to get them fired for disagreeing with us. However, you don’t explain what you mean by "exposing" people or who’s trying to get Edwards fired – I certainly don’t. You also don’t acknowledge any of the legitimate reasons or methods that people may have for criticising or challenging Edwards' work such as writing a critical blog post on here on TS. You seem to suggest that because he has an opinion, he has a right to express it without any consequences or accountability. However, this is a fallacy of free speech absolutism, which assumes that because someone has a right to say something, they are immune from any criticism or responsibility for what they say. In reality, Edwards does have to face some feedback or consequences for his work.

      Lastly, you argue that instead of attacking a guy with an opinion, the Greens should focus on giving people reasons to vote for them and getting more seats in Parliament. However, these two things are not mutually exclusive or incompatible – I’m not the Greens. You also fail to mention any of the reasons or achievements that the Greens have given people to vote for them and support them in government. You seem to suggest that because Edwards has an opinion, he has a right to influence public opinion without any counter-argument or alternative perspective. This is nonsense, of course. In reality, I or anybody else, for that matter, can challenge Edwards' opinion regardless of what the Greens may or may not have done and what they or may not offer. I think that for the sake of balance it is important to speak up even if it means disagreeing with Edwards or anyone else who tries to undermine or misrepresent the Greens. I’m not attacking a guy with an opinion, but defending a party and their policies from biased and flawed commentary.

      HTH
      • That_guy 10.3.1

        17 May 2023 at 9:44 pm

        Look forward to your post on the Disinformation Project.

        While I support their aims wholeheartedly, I note that they have repeatedly made extraordinary claims referring to "genocidal" levels of a "tsunami" of vitriol, then refused to release source data for their claims by stating that the source data is "too confronting". I have looked. There is nothing.

        Not releasing source data means that they cannot claim to be scientists. At this point they are commenters, who may or may not be fudging the data. Nobody can tell, because in contradiction of all normal scientific practices, there is no source data.

        I'm not saying they are wrong. I'm just saying that the claims they make need to be backed up, and to do otherwise is a disservice to the people they claim to be serving.
    • SPC 10.4

      16 May 2023 at 11:57 am

      The left has had a

      The left is furious

      Not all lefties conform to anyone's characterisations

      The left is also grumpy … because middle class lefty's need to believe that anyone who disagrees with them is a frothing fascist, transphobic white supremacist.

      That sounds like some middle class liberals

      The right is engaged in class war against the have nots using the excuse that individuals acting in their self interest is the most efficient economic system, and resorting to race/cultural heritage and religious/social conservatism of the group to realise a voting majority.

      You can disagree with Bryce, I disagree with him all the time but we don't need to "expose" people or do as many would like, try to get him fired for the sin of disagreements.

      Can you name anyone who wants him fired from academia or writing for media?

      The idea that we'll expose and destroy people for not agreeing with us is why high quality candidates refuse to stand for office

      Really? Can you cite the cite any evidence about this?

      and why the public hates politics

      Politics is essential for democracy.

      Instead of attacking a guy with an opinion, the Greens should focus on giving people reasons to vote for them and getting more seats cos right now they look like a party stuck in idle focusing on themselves rather than a party hellbent on being a part of govt

      The Greens have made no statement about Edwards. The media report about the Greens as much as their policies, and that says as much about the nature of media coverage of politics today as the Greens themselves. And that is why there is now government funding of media – and the DP – to reduce the impact of social media disinformation.
11. Roy Cartland 11

    15 May 2023 at 5:31 am

    Just want to tautoko this important and timely post, thanks Incog.
12. Roy Cartland 12

    15 May 2023 at 5:41 am

    (Sorry I can't enter to the text field when hitting reply from phone, this is reply to Corey Humm @ 10)

    I got from the post that the way the Greens are reported on is at least a sizable part of the problem. If they 'quietly' go about their business and get anything done, they're invisible: doing nothing, or worse, someone else gets credit. If they show a bit of mongrel, they are 'stroppy' and get blasted for that. If they differ about how to go about things, they're 'at war '. They can't win in a media environment that trades on negativity.

    I actually think there are plenty of reasons to vote for them, but that bait doesn't get clicks.
13. That_guy 13

    15 May 2023 at 9:22 am

    I think there are biases in Edward's piece but it was overall a reasonably accurate picture.

    I also think there's altogether too much emphasis on "factions" and who's "team" is "winning" as if that's a deciding factor in Green votes.

    I'm not voting Green because I hold a genuine belief that policies and laws passed by the Greens are permanently hurting vulnerable kids. It's not complicated and it's not about teams.
    • weka 13.1

      15 May 2023 at 9:45 am

      if you are talking about transition, afaik all parties in government support gender ideology. Not voting on the left gifts government to the right who will both support child transition and fuck over kids in lots of other ways.
      • That_guy 13.1.1

        15 May 2023 at 9:48 am

        I will be voting on the left somewhere. Where? Who knows. If TOP looks like getting in I will probably go with them.
        • weka 13.1.1.1

          15 May 2023 at 9:51 am

          Labour, GP, TPM all support gender ideology.

          TOP may go into coalition with National. Have they said anything about gender identity politics?
          • arkie 13.1.1.1.1

            15 May 2023 at 10:08 am

            • Gender is about identity, which can and should be self-defined. Sex is a biological term, albeit a more complicated concept than many people appreciate.
            • Many aspects of life are unnecessarily gendered. This hurts people of all genders. We are shoehorned into two distinct categories which don’t always reflect reality. This limits gender roles and really harms people who don’t conform to the binary categories.
            • Government doesn’t have a role in all these areas, but where possible we should encourage policies and practices that don’t force people into two discrete boxes.
            • Transgender, non-binary and intersex people have as much right to participate in sport as anyone. We think it’s going to take some work to figure out how to reconcile the binary categories of sports with the non-binary nature of gender. This is probably a great issue to work through with Citizens’ Assemblies involving people with lived experience and a range of expertise.
            • Transgender, non-binary and intersex people should have easy access to gender-affirming identity documents.

            https://web.archive.org/web/20210731122826/https://www.top.org.nz/rainbow_position_statement
            • roy cartland 13.1.1.1.1.1

              15 May 2023 at 10:39 am

              Point one: it's this kind of sweeping certainty that I disagree with. Gender is not separate from biology in my experience; it couldn't be. Of course people can represent however they like; but to insist I agree with it, to insist that I believe it as well, is uncomfortable at best.

              Rather than shoehorning words to fit into a broken society, shouldn't we be improving society eliminate any kind of 'roles' tied to gender or sex?
            • weka 13.1.1.1.1.2

              15 May 2023 at 10:39 am

              thanks arkie. So supports self-ID, is non committal on sports, and thinks Citizen's Assemblies might be the way to resolve conflicts of rights.

              It's very vague on things like toilets. Doesn't say anything about child transition, but I'll guess because of the self-ID stance they are ok with children transitioning.
            • Nic the NZer 13.1.1.1.1.3

              15 May 2023 at 12:33 pm

              Most sport is not split into binary categories. In the case of fighting sports and Rugby and the like then its two categories but these are the exceptions and for clear safety reason they are obviously justified. Otherwise the two categories are mostly Open and Woman's. Females can participate in the open category though that's an exception and they are usually at the absolute top level to be doing so.

              But the claim about actual trans exclusion in sport is completely incorrect. The alleged exclusion is not something Sport's administration has been guilty of. Transgender people can (and do) participate in the Open (or Men's) category as they always have been able to. As far as I have observed the attitude of Sports administration to additional participation is basically, yes please how can we help with that, at every level. The groups lobbying here should be expected to demonstrate the exclusion before their allegations are taken seriously.
            • Visubversa 13.1.1.1.1.4

              15 May 2023 at 3:51 pm

              Well, there is TOP off the list then. The usual recitation of Gender Ideological mantras.
    • arkie 13.2

      15 May 2023 at 9:56 am

      laws passed by the Greens

      Assuming this is the BDMRR amendment you are referring to, this is just factually incorrect. It was tabled by Jan Tinetti, Labour MP, passed into legislation in 2021 under the Labour government, with unanimous support of parliament:

      Internal Affairs Minister Jan Tinetti, who tabled the amendment to the Bill, said it was a proud day in Aotearoa's history.

      "Parliament has voted in favour of inclusivity and against discrimination," she said.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/457575/parliament-unanimously-passes-bill-allowing-change-to-birth-certificates

      There is no party in parliament that didn't support the amendment.
      • That_guy 13.2.1

        15 May 2023 at 10:32 am

        Thanks for the clarification. I guess I’ll be holding my nose, throwing a few LGB kids under the bus, and voting somewhere on the left.
        • SPC 13.2.1.1

          15 May 2023 at 12:11 pm

          You say you are concerned about the transitioning of children. Are you aware of recent changes in public health policy in this area?
14. Mike the Lefty 14

    15 May 2023 at 9:37 am

    I have to say that I think Bryce Edwards is accurate on some points.

    First, his depiction that the Greens are/were a mixture of three idealogical threads – environmental, social justice and socialism is spot on. He is also correct when he says that the socialism element is now long gone.

    I was an original supporter of the Greens Party when they were formed in the very late 1980s and first contested a general election in 1990.

    I attended several meeting and was very heartened by the earnest and honest attitudes of the candidates and supporters. They were ordinary people, very ordinary. There was no pretension, no big grandiose plans, no railing on about who you were or what sex you identified with or any of that rubbish. A nicer bunch of people you could not get. Of course they got ridiculed in the media for their preference for low-tech lifestyles. Derisive comments about them wearing home-spun woollen jerseys and building compost bins were common.

    This Greens Party has long disappeared and the real people in it who led by example like Jeanette Fitzsimons have been replaced by smart-ass professional PR consultants who are not so interested in debating the environment as they are debating gender politics.

    Bryce Edwards' article is actually quite well written, you can't say he's a bad writer just because he writes things you don't want to read or don't agree with. I think he puts out quite valid arguments and some of them make a lot of sense.

    There is a lot more I could say on this, but others will probably say it for me.

    '
    • weka 14.1

      15 May 2023 at 9:47 am

      when you say socialism is gone, what do you mean?
    • Phillip ure 14.2

      15 May 2023 at 12:00 pm

      @ Mike the lefty..

      I know sainthood has been conferred upon j.fitzsimons…but really she was pretty conservative..and happily hopped into a minister outside cabinet in a clark gummint…where nothing much was achieved/progressed..

      And I totally disagree with your broadstroke depiction of the current greens…and your good then/bad now caricature is both simplistic and inaccurate…

      I have said before that shaw has been playing a long game..and is nearly there..to be in a position of advancing green/environmental policies..(and had not the last election turned into a referendum on pandemic handling..he would have been there then)

      The projected mix of labour/greens/tpm has the potential to effect real/needed change..

      So for former greens to be contemplating shifting their vote from those three speaks more of them/their political beliefs..and must be an exercise in bad timing..

      And those on the left eying up top must know that a while ago there were whispers of national doing an act in epsom deal for top..so giving them the tick could see left-wingers/greens helping to vote in a right-wing gummint…

      Doh..!….eh..?
      • Mike the Lefty 14.2.1

        16 May 2023 at 8:16 am

        "The projected mix of labour/greens/tpm has the potential to effect real/needed change".

        Potential is no good without the will to do something with it and that seems to be lacking at the moment. Labour has had the real means over the last six years to transform this country but hasn't done more than a bit of tinkering to the tired old model.

        Dare I hope things will change?
        • Phillip ure 14.2.1.1

          16 May 2023 at 12:56 pm

          I can bang on and on about what a bloody disappointment this labour ruling alone gummint has been..

          But I do think labour needing green/tpm support will be a very different playbook…

          I remain optimistic..
15. Psycho Milt 15

    16 May 2023 at 8:51 am

    The Greens would be a very unusual political party if there were no factions, back-stabbing, devious plots etc. Those things are impossible to eradicate if you still want to have a political party at the end of it.

    The stuff about "underperformance" bothers me. The fact that James Shaw hasn't been able to impose his will on a Labour govt and have it do his bidding is a "well, duh." Anything the Greens achieve as a minor party and recently a minor party outside govt is good performance.
    • weka 15.1

      16 May 2023 at 9:24 am

      I can accept that people commenting on social media might not understand how MMP, government and parliament works, but Edwards should know better. He's not the only one (looks hard closer to home)
      • Psycho Milt 15.1.1

        16 May 2023 at 12:20 pm

        Absolutely. He's supposed to be not just some arsehole with an opinion (someone like me, for example) but a professional political scientist. A lack of understanding is a lot less likely in that context than malicious intent.
16. RP Mcmurphy 16

    17 May 2023 at 11:51 am

    you say trust in science and academia is on a downslide. what you dont do is ask why.

    that is pretty poor reporting and no anaysis is just kneejerk b/s. all effects have a cause and if you the writer knew your stuff then you could dosomething about it. I suggest you try Marvin Harris' Theories Of Culture In Post Modern Times for a start and tghen come back with some sort of reasons for this decline and why.
    • Incognito 16.1

      17 May 2023 at 9:26 pm

      That book was published in 1999 and unless it was prescient, it won’t answer your question. Nice try though.

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