Daily Review 02/09/2015

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1. Lanthanide 1

   2 September 2015 at 6:14 pm

   Peter Dunne has talked about increasing the quota by 250 to 1000.

   IMO it should go up to 2,000, at a bare minimum.

   Maybe 2,000 by next year with a built-in ramping up of something like +400 a year for 5 years after that?
   • infused 1.1

     2 September 2015 at 6:26 pm

     Cool. You can pay for it all.
     • dv 1.1.1

       2 September 2015 at 6:30 pm

       Well actually Infused I would not mind contributing.
     • Lanthanide 1.1.2

       2 September 2015 at 6:42 pm

       Sure, when John Key personally pays for his flag referendum.
     • Foreign waka 1.1.3

       2 September 2015 at 6:56 pm

       To Infused: If the billions spent on sending troops to the middle east are cut in half it would be easily achievable to get a lot more refugees housed.
       Of cause you are paying for the sable rattling that has created this situation in the first place. I am at a loss why the irony of this situation escapes you.
       • miravox 1.1.3.1

         2 September 2015 at 7:33 pm

         If the billions spent on sending troops to the middle east are cut in half it would be easily achievable to get a lot more refugees housed.

         +1 And, of course, there wouldn’t be as many refugees. Especially if the billions saved were spent to rebuild what was destroyed by the intervention of those troops in the first place.
         • marty mars 1.1.3.1.1

           2 September 2015 at 7:41 pm

           yep very very true – sure climate change, sure drought, but a lot is manmade warmongering by fools wanting billionaires to make even more money from their weapon developments and testing. We created the shit and then complain it tastes funny – western hubris.
     • mickysavage 1.1.4

       2 September 2015 at 7:21 pm

       The flag referendum and the saudi sheep farm cost should pretty well cover it.
     • Colonial Viper 1.1.5

       2 September 2015 at 7:24 pm

       Cool. You can pay for it all.

       You’re going to struggle to come back as a human being, mate.
       • marty mars 1.1.5.1

         2 September 2015 at 7:38 pm

         lol nice line that
       • Pat 1.1.5.2

         2 September 2015 at 9:51 pm

         youre assuming humanity at this point
   • greywarshark 1.2

     2 September 2015 at 6:52 pm

     @Lanthanide
     Peter Dunne said something that cuts across the apparent humane and intelligent tone he adopted about the refugees. He referred to choosing the right people or something like that ie picking out the goodies that have education, which would be the method if they were applying for immigration.

     But these are refugees FFS. From war torn countries. I doubt they would have had much time to study accountancy or science while lying at the bottom of walls trying to keep safe from bombardments or stray snipers.
   • BM 1.3

     2 September 2015 at 7:59 pm

     Only if they all get to live in the south island.

     Preferably Dunedin.
     • McFlock 1.3.1

       2 September 2015 at 11:50 pm

       their skillsets and experience would partially make up for all the damage national has done to the place.

       Keep your banker scum. Give us people who will travel to the other side of the planet for a better life.
2. rob 2

   2 September 2015 at 6:37 pm

   of cause we can! cut back immigrant no. to cater for the refugees. simple
   • b waghorn 2.1

     2 September 2015 at 6:41 pm

     But refugees won’t prop the ailing rock star up like cashed up immigrants ,got to get that surplus one decade you know.
     • Jenny Kirk 2.1.1

       2 September 2015 at 9:15 pm

       Yeah right b.waghorn – you’ve hit the nail right on the head – our non-esteemed leader only wants people into NZ who’ll vote for him ! He’s finally showing his true colours and a disgusting attitude !
3. marty mars 3

   2 September 2015 at 6:51 pm

   That graphic shows the shame of this state – sadly some of the types who have settled and spawned here are selfish and smarmy. Shocking? no just sobering.
   • Pat 3.1

     2 September 2015 at 9:53 pm

     and dosnt include Syrias neighbours who would top the list comfortably…Lebanon springs to mind
4. greywarshark 4

   2 September 2015 at 7:08 pm

   Jokeyhen was born here in 1961 but his father died in 1969. That must have been quite tragic at 8 years old. His father George was an English immigrant and a veteran of the Spanish Civil War and World War II.

   So we looked after George’s little boy for him, and I am sure John is cognisant of the trauma that people coming from war-torn countries feel. His father was only 55 years when he died and he didn’t die with the idea that fascism and unrestrained capitalism would reign. Obviously, he wouldn’t have gone to Spain if he was okay with the fascism there.

   I think John needs a little humanity in his real policies. The flag is a diversion, time for real statesmanship that all war sufferers here in NZ can relate to. That means helping the affected civilians as refugees. Also I want the Afghani interpreter let in who has been asking, repeatedly. I want us to take responsibility for taking part in such a destructive war because the country doesn’t have the strength to say no to our friendly neighbour OZ plus the USA.
   • Muttonbird 4.1

     2 September 2015 at 11:08 pm

     Interesting that Key’s father was a veteran of the Spanish civil war. Amazing that he’s turned on all his father’s ideals.

     Perhaps a punishment for going to war for the betterment of society and leaving his son alone???

     John rebelled, big time, didn’t he?
     • Muttonbird 4.1.1

       2 September 2015 at 11:45 pm

       Whoops, sorry I got that wrong in that Key’s father was fighting for social justice in Europe long before little John was born.

       Also interesting was that Key’s father was 48 when little john was born. I’m 45 in a time when life expectancy and state health systems are much better than when when Key was born but I would not even consider bringing another child into this world at my age.

       Also interesting is that his mother was a Jewish immigrant and I can only assume she and George met during his fight for the socially responsible left during the pre war and/or war years.

       More interesting still is that John Key would turn his back on all that sacrifice and turn his energy to fight for profit-makers and speculators at the expense of the very people his parents fought for.
       • greywarshark 4.1.1.1

         3 September 2015 at 9:38 am

         Hi Muttonbird. (Are you ex Weepus Beard?)

         I felt I was assuming a bit about Jokeyhen’s father and his attitudes but he had definitely put himself out for the left. Two people affected by this stressful time of war may very well have felt that having a child at a later age was a positive thing. This was creating for a positive, settled future but then he dies earlier than the norm.

         Also later the drive to get out of the poverty from being a poor immigrant, and then a widowed solo parent household just managing, and for the child to do well would have meant rejoicing at his job promotions. It would be hard to reject millions of dollars income and assets, and the standing that it brings in society to Mr Key.

         His mother wouldn’t turn around and criticise him saying you aren’t doing the right things John, I’m not happy. And she will still be fairly poor so he would be helping her to have a comfortable older life. I think the background has been influential in the forming of our PM and his viewpoints on life.
5. Bill 5

   2 September 2015 at 7:12 pm

   NZ could/should take up to 5000….for a start. And fuck any idea of balancing that off against immigration.

   As a yardstick…

   Alex Salmond, SNP foreign affairs spokesperson, recently called for the UK to take
   60 000 refugees from ‘the med’ – Scotland taking its proportional share…about 5000?

   Idiot contender for Labour leadership (Cooper) calls for 10 000 across entire UK (up from 1000).

   Maybe worth noting that Labour ran on a ‘tougher on immigration’ ticket at the general election. (You could even buy the mug!) Plaid Cymru, the Greens and SNP all pointed out that immigration represented a net financial gain to the UK.

   Now sure, immigration’s a different kettle of fish to the basic human decency involved in y’know, really fucking desperate people needing, literally and figuratively, ‘picked up’.

   NZ spoke out against nothing and contributed to situations that made for so many refugees in the first place. Moral obligation anyone?
   • miravox 5.1

     2 September 2015 at 7:29 pm

     “NZ spoke out against nothing and contributed to situations that made for so many refugees in the first place. Moral obligation anyone? “
     Yep

     I wrote similar yesterday:

     ….So the New Zealand Prime Minister is refusing to bring forward a review on New Zealand’s refugee quota of 750 per year. He says New Zealand is “doing a good job”, without acknowledging those 750 places for refugees have not being filled in 3 of the last 6 years…

     This prime minister is on record as supporting interventions in the Middle East that have destabilised the region and led to this massive movement of people towards safety in Europe, despite the perilous journeys they must make.
     New Zealand’s Prime Minister, with his policy briefing and his very personal connections with people escaping war and persecution knows what these people have been through. He knows why they’re leaving the Middle East. He has said so, and used the plight of the Syrian and Iraqi people to justify sending a contingent of the New Zealand armed forces to Iraq. It’s time for him to “Get some guts” over the refugee crisis and be a decent person. In his speech in parliament to support sending the army training personnel to Iraq, when talking about our independent *cough* foreign policy he said:

     New Zealand is a country that stands up for its values. We stand up for what’s right. We have an obligation to support stability and the rule of law internationally. We do not shy away from taking our share of the burden when the international rules-based system is threatened…”

     I believe playing a part in resolving the current refugee crisis, that in part is a result of foreign interventions he supported, is part of that obligation. It sickens me to think of what New Zealand’s values are if this in not true.

     If you can sell a flag that no-one wants “Double the Quota” shouldn’t be too hard for a politician of his calibre to sell to a possibly poorly-informed and reluctant NZ population. That he doesn’t even try is more than embarrassing, it’s shameful.
6. Anne 6

   2 September 2015 at 7:21 pm

   It was pointed out by someone on RNZ today (sorry forgotten who) that we are currently presiding over the UN Security Council and yet our government is refusing to take any of the refugees from war-torn countries which we played a role in expediting. I am feeling ashamed to be a NZer.
7. Clemgeopin 7

   2 September 2015 at 7:30 pm

   The elephant in the room is not just the gigantic refugee crisis but the war mess and interference that was first of all perpetrated BY USA and its western allies in Iraq and indirectly in the surrounding countries for the last decade and more, resulting in atrocious misery for the inhabitants there. Result : Al-Qaeda and now ISIS, the bombings and the refugees fleeing..

   [They did have some justification for the war in Kuwait and Afghanistan, but not elsewhere]

   The best thing to do now is to bring PEACE in the region ‘somehow’, with the help and cooperation of Syria, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Yemen, Israel, Lebanon, Kurds and others. Tough ask, I know.

   The problem with the refugees now is the sheer huge numbers and that some or many of them may come with militant/religious/hateful baggage into a completely different type of society and culture. I wonder how the future of Europe will turn out.

   New Zealand must increase its intake of refugees at least at the same per capita % or half that % as our nearest neighbour, Australia, even if it means reducing our normal immigrant levels to compensate for the extra refugees. Luckily for New Zealand the previous refugees here have been grateful, peaceful and have contributed very well into our society.
8. photonz 8

   2 September 2015 at 8:10 pm

   The graph is highly dubious.

   It’s widely reported that Sweden has a quota of accepting 1900 refugees a year for 9.5m people (see links below), compared to 750 refugees a year for 4.5m people in NZ.

   That’s a remarkably similar rate.

   Yet the graph gives Sweden a figure that’s 4923% higher than NZ.

   If the graph were true, Sweden would need to be accepting not 1,900 a year, but 140,000 a year. And in just 6 years or doing that, 10% of the entire population would be refugees. Every decade the refugee population would make up an additional 20% of the Swedish population. In less three decades over half of Sweden would be refugees.

   Similarly Norway, with a slightly larger population than us, has traditionally taken 1000 refugees a year – again a very similar rate to NZ. Only this year have they doubled it to 2000 – around double our rate – but not the 3000% more, as per the graph.

   And Netherlands with a population of 17 million has a quota of 500 refugees a year, but usually takes less most years.

   The graph shows Netherlands accepting around 1500% more refugees per capita than us, when it’s actually about 85% fewer.

   For Swedens refugess quotas see
   http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/About-the-Migration-Agency/News-archive/News-archive-2015/2015-03-05-Syria-prioritised-in-the-Swedish-refugee-quota.html
   or
   http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Protection-and-asylum-in-Sweden/The-refugee-quota.html

   Finish refugee quota –
   http://www.unhcr-northerneurope.org/news-detail/norway-doubles-its-resettlement-quota-for-refugees-in-urgent-need-of-protection

   Netherlands refugee quota
   http://www.resettlement.eu/country/netherlands
   • Ben 8.1

     2 September 2015 at 8:33 pm

     Don’t let facts get in the way of a good piece of propaganda. Glad I don’t live in Sweden, and we should look after our own 200,000 + (more propaganda) starving children first.

     Is it a coincidence that the very same Nordic countries at the top of the graphic are suffering from large parts of their countries being effectively under Islamic rule, to the point where the police stay away, and the fire and ambulance services can’t get across the ‘border’?

     Given the Labour Party’s recent highly racist policies (what’s that you hear – a policy from Labour!?) I’m suprised they want more of those foreigners coming here.
     • mickysavage 8.1.1

       2 September 2015 at 9:11 pm

       Don’t let your world view get in the way of reality. Try the UNHCR site and then complain. And if the data is wrong point out why.

       And the Nordic countries are not suffering. They are still stunning places to live in.
       • swordfish 8.1.1.1

         2 September 2015 at 10:12 pm

         We’ve just spent 2 weeks travelling around Norway in July and I can’t say we noticed “large parts” of the Country “effectively under Islamic rule”.

         Did, however, notice how well-integrated black / Muslim refugees were. Even in small tourist towns on the largely rural Sogne Fjord, they were high-profile, seemed to get on well with the locals and were very well catered for. In Sogndal, for instance, quite an impressive state-of-the-art drop-in community centre was provided for refugees near the municipal sector of the town centre. All remarkably relaxed and layed back.

         No sign whatsoever of trembling police or tearful citizens cowering as bearded Islamic terrorists ran roughshod, beheading anyone in sight. I wonder if Ben’s getting mixed up with the Faroe Islands ?
         • Ad 8.1.1.1.1

           2 September 2015 at 11:30 pm

           Would you recommend a Scandinavian tour?
           • swordfish 8.1.1.1.1.1

             3 September 2015 at 11:54 am

             Abso-bloody-lutely !

             For us, it was always going to be either Norway, Iceland or the Faroe Islands. Always felt that’s where the really stunning vistas (and sense of beautiful isolation) are. And I do like my scenery to be on a particularly dramatic scale.

             Mind you, we did a big 2 week self-drive road trip rather than a cruise – so I can’t really speak for the latter.

             We had brilliant weather for almost the whole fortnight – pretty quickly learnt that Norwegian forecasters are some of the least prescient in the world, every time they predicted rain for the following day, we got blue skies and sunshine.

             The thing that struck me about Norway is that, no matter where we travelled, the scenery was always stunning and on a grand scale. The guide books almost always focus on the Sogne Fjord and the Hardanger Fjord and cities like Bergen and Alesund. But the scenery when you’re travelling between those places is equally dramatic. If it was any other country, those in-between places would’ve made it into the guide books as major features of extraordinary beauty but Norway’s just so chocka-block with them that they’re ignored.

             My older brother lives in the UK and gave me the benefit of his wisdom on Scandinavians after we came back from Norway. As far as he’s concerned (from his dealings with various Nordic people via his job): Norwegians and Swedes are Pompous, pretentious and self-satisfied, the Finns are just barking mad, completely off their head, whereas the Danes are apparently very bright, very nice, very likeable and very normal.

             All of which I thought was a little over-the-top. Had to inform him that the Norwegians were very friendly and welcoming as far as we were concerned. The only time I had any negative feelings about them was at 2am in the little town of Odda at the southern end of beautiful Sorfjorden (see http://caravancho.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/VisitNorway-Odda.jpg and https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/93/87/9a/93879a1aa3b51d211319090a29a66f33.jpg and http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/5e/a5/52/odda.jpg). Woke up to this friggin explosion of loud noise, went out on to the balcony and way down below the hotel there were about 150 pissed Norwegians all shouting what sounded like “Og Og Og !!!, Og, Og, Og !!!” Mind you, it was a Saturday night in mid-Summer so probably didn’t have too many grounds for grumbling. But I think I may have quietly mumbled something about “fucking Norwegians”.

             But, then again, I also felt the need to cut them some slack because Odda is one of the Norwegian Labour Party’s strongholds in an otherwise pretty conservative area (It’s typical of me to go to great lengths to find out the political proclivities of the places we travel to in Europe. Sad, but true).
   • weston 8.2

     2 September 2015 at 8:48 pm

     hmmm sounds like amnesty international is being poorly represented by amnesty international nz .Maybe they should stick to the things they are good at and that nonetheless are very important like looking after the rights of political prisoners and exposing the odious nature of torture and torturers .
     • mickysavage 8.2.1

       2 September 2015 at 9:09 pm

       Sounds like you need to learn how to improve your comprehension.
   • mickysavage 8.3

     2 September 2015 at 9:09 pm

     See where it says “Source UNHCR”? If you do a bit of googling you will find this link http://unhcr-refugees-2015.silk.co/page/Sweden with the data.

     Typical you have spent all day trying to deny the extent of problems concerning climate change and now you want to attack further data. Even if you were right Sweden’s contribution would still be many times greater than New Zealands.
     • photonz 8.3.1

       2 September 2015 at 11:31 pm

       At least I didn’t spend the day backtracking from a ludicrous and sensationalist headline that the situation in Syria is the first war due to climate change.

       You article was a great example of the point I was making – that those who try to mislead and exaggerate climate change to the extreme, are exactly like those who cherry pick information to try to deny it altogether.

       [lprent: He didn’t backtrack. You just lied. So you are an idiot who can’t argue, as usual is usual for your many manifestations here under different names. But you now attack personally authors instead on the basis that you didn’t like what they wrote. Rather stupid on this site. You are quite inadequate at almost every level and rather pointless for this site to have around. I can’t be bothered going through this same stupid cycle with you again. Instead you are banned permanently.

       Go away and lie about the reason for being banned as you usually do. I’m sure it will help you keep your wee penis and attached ego proud… ]
       • One Anonymous Bloke 8.3.1.1

         2 September 2015 at 11:39 pm

         ? <==== this symbol is called a "question mark". Do you recall this symbol appearing anywhere over the last day or so? <==== oh look! There's another one!

         Shall I explain an “exclamation mark” to you as well?
       • weka 8.3.1.2

         2 September 2015 at 11:41 pm

         you assert the point, fail to back it up, and then get all shirty when people call you out on it.

         there is no middle way on climate change.
   • miravox 8.4

     2 September 2015 at 9:19 pm

     Your first link suggests Sweden has an official refugee quota that it has increased to 1,900. Plus and informal Asylum Seeker population. A link from the page you linked to also shows high numbers of asylum seekers:

     The number of unaccompanied minors seeking asylum in Europe has risen sharply since mid-May. The Swedish Migration Agency currently estimates that 12,000 unaccompanied minors will be seeking asylum in Sweden this year. But the total number of asylum seekers will be lower than previously anticipated and the forecast has revised down to 74,000.

     (dated August – it will be interesting to see how this prediction turns out)

     The context of these differences ar outlined in a “stuff” article

     … the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) ranks us 88th in the world per capita at hosting refugees. If we're really interested in doing our bit – not being world leaders, but doing our fair share – we should consider what other like- minded countries are doing.

     Whenever raising the quota is mentioned to Minister of Immigration Michael Woodhouse, he says our current quota "places New Zealand sixth equal in the world for accepting refugees referred by the UNHCR."

     That is dodgy accounting. Refugees can come into a country as part of the UN quota or as asylum seekers. New Zealand is one of a handful of countries that host more quota refugees than asylum seekers, mostly because the vast surrounding oceans make it dangerous for boat travel.

     Almost all other countries receive the bulk of refugees as asylum seekers and they count quota and asylum seekers in official reporting.
     • photonz 8.4.1

       2 September 2015 at 11:08 pm

       I think there’s different groups being looked at here.

       One groups is refugees, as per the refugee quotas I listed.

       In Sweden, a large number of asylum seekers are actually just economic migrants. But as it’s so easy to apply for asylum (you don’t have to be a refugee to get asylum) people are flooding in from across Africa and the Middle East.

       Here we call that immigration, with the difference being our distance allows us the luxury of picking people with skills we need. And 60,000 have come to NZ in the last year.

       Unsurprisingly, Sweden is not coping with housing and jobs for their asylum seekers and refugees. While the unemployment rate for Sweden overall is 8%, for those migrants born outside of the EU it’s 28%.

       And for refugees it’s even worse – one report said a decade after arriving in Sweden, over 40% of refugees still do not have work.

       So to summarise, the graph wrongly states it is talking about refugees. For Sweden 98% are asylum seekers and economic migrants who don’t have refugee status.

       Though some may eventually get it, a large number will not. But the majority will be given residency regardless.
       • miravox 8.4.1.1

         3 September 2015 at 12:06 am

         Oops – I think you just shifted the goalposts there and went into speculation as if it were fact. You have no way of knowing that the asylum seekers that Sweden takes are ‘just’ economic migrants. They may (let me speculate) be like the vast majority of people (i.e. from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan) Hungary let through to Austria and Germany on Monday.

         As it stands, the people Sweden categorises as part of the refugee quota, and Sweden’s other informal asylum seekers are seeking refuge from something, somewhere and are counted as such. As you state – the majority of these asylum seekers are given residency, which suggests their claims to refuge are valid. This pretty much wrecks your claim that the the NZ refugee quota (even if it was met every year – which it isn’t) comes somewhere near Sweden’s refugee intake each year, either wholly or per capita.

         If you think that Sweden or the UN High Commission for Refugees has their data wrong maybe you should take it up with them.
9. Jenny Kirk 9

   2 September 2015 at 9:13 pm

   that chart at the top of this post is shameful. And disgusting. As Andrew Little said on the TV news – its not the Kiwi Way. We’re better than our miserable so-called PM is indicating we are. Let’s bring more refugees in.
10. sabine 10

    2 September 2015 at 9:25 pm

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/german-police-forced-to-ask-public-to-stop-bringing-donations-for-refugees-arriving-by-train-10481522.html

    sometimes people do shame their representatives into action.
    In saying that I believe that Dear Leader has no shame to interfere with his comforts. And it is most important that Dear Leader is comfortable. So there.
11. Muttonbird 11

    3 September 2015 at 12:07 am

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CN3ql40U8AAKsAm.png

Links to post

1. How much does New Zealand spend on refugees? « The Standard: posted on 3 September 2015 at 8:33 am

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