Daily review 05/04/2024

Written By: - Date published: 5:30 pm, April 5th, 2024 - 148 comments
Categories: Daily review - Tags:

Daily review is also your post.

This provides Standardistas the opportunity to review events of the day.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Don’t forget to be kind to each other …

148 comments on “Daily review 05/04/2024 ”

  1. SPC 1

    "Stevig tot aan de beet"

    Hou op met mij te bijten

    Hallo, mijn naam is Dante

    Jaagt de hond


  2. SPC 2

    AI has solved the problem of a shortage of IT workers.


    So when will the upgrade of government IT systems go more smoothly?

  3. weka 3

    This is fascinating, and such a good explanation of the culture wars. But it needs to be understood in context, so I will attempt a precis (sorry, it ended up being long).

    The hosts of Triggernometry are two right wing intellectual men. The reason lefties like me watch their show is because they are one of the few places where the interviews are about eliciting belief and meaning rather than simply using polemic or clickbait rhetoric for whatever politics/position.

    They interview people with a wide range of beliefs and politics, from across the political spectrums.

    The young man they are interviewing is of a different age demographic and milieu. He's most recently been working for an online LW media outlet, but has worked with both the left and right (including far right). I don't quite get him, and in the past have thought he was a grifter and a bit of a dick. But here he is showing more mature analsysis.

    He came to fame recently because he interviewed right wing media personality and trans identified male (trans woman) India Willoughby. Willoughby has a gender recognition certificate and often insists they are literally a woman. They're on twitter and there is a lot of fighting between IW and gender critical people, including JK Rowling.

    In the interview with the young man, Willoughby claimed that they had made a complaint to the police about JKR misgendering them on tweets and this was a hate crime. This was a few weeks before the Scottish Hate Crime law came into being on April 1 (JKR lives in Scotland). The police declined to investigate.

    But the statement they had done this was a big scoop for the young man, and he threw it out onto twitter into everyone's faces in a stupid way and got an understandably negative response (those tweets now deleted by his media org afaik).

    JKR responded on twitter a number of times because lines were being crossed and the young dude got a lot more than he bargained for. He ended up tweeting to JKR that she was a putrid c*nt. He appears to have been having a melt down rather than simply being a fuckwit.

    Not too long after that he unreservedly apologised and took responsibility, deleting the tweets. JKR accepted his apology gracefully and asked everyone to back off. Young dude disappears for awhile.

    In this video, he is talking about all of that, comes across as quite naive, the Triggernometry guys are going kind of light on him but pull him up on a few things.

    At the time stamp he says how since then lefties he knows have been telling him that JKR is a cunt and he shouldn't have deleted his tweets. Then all three of them are sitting there talking about the dynamic of why the left now think it's ok to call a woman a cunt, that it is extremely misogynistic. Compare this with the resounding silence from the left at all the misogynistic shit being thrown at gender critical women for the past decade.

    He also points out very well that both sides no longer consider the people on the other side human, and that this is going to go very badly.

    What women now understand very very well is that RW men will stand up for them (to an extent) and LW men won't.

    This in a nutshell is why the left is losing the culture wars. Most of the liberal left is still running round thinking that our politics are more important than people. He tangata, he tangata is lipservice and only applicable to people we like and agree with.

    Meanwhile, the structure of the traditional left/right spectrum is breaking down. I see so many women on social media (more than I can count) talking about now being politically homeless (UK, US and NZ). They have picked a side that is anti-left. And the liberal left's response is don't let the door hit you on the way out bigots, while at the same time not understanding that we are now outnumbered and outgunned.


    There about 5 minutes relevant to what I just said (maybe more, I'm still watching).

    • Nic the NZer 3.1

      People right across the political spectrum get sucked into media narratives. In fact given the advent of the internet and particularly social media taking over news we probably have a smaller range of narratives as individual's than the 90's.

      Fundamentally the left and right are about as susceptible to moral panics as each other.

      The only winning strategy with culture wars is not to play.

      • weka 3.1.1

        It's a nice idea, but women simply aren't going to walk away from the sex/gender wars, so the issue becomes how to convert the culture war side of that into useful debate and political rapprochement.

        The next bit in that video is talking the social media manipulation and also MSM. The young dude working at Byline has spend a number of years going out and doing actual reporting without an agenda on issues like why a steel works is closing down. And still getting millions of views.

        MSM were cutting that kind of reporting and often the MSM didn't know why the steel works was closing. But he just went and talked to workers and people who lived there who explained it and that no-one else was talking to.

        It was inspiring. I need to go look up some of his past work. It's very pertinent given the cuts to NZ journalism and news.

        • Visubversa

          Well, now that the Labour Party is employing Shaneel Lal, I am seriously considering the cancellation of the automatic payment to the Party I have done for over 40 years.

          • weka

            have to admit that if he had been hired by the Greens I'd be feeling the same. My commitment to strategic voting only stretches so far.

            Let's be grateful that his social media history probably rules him out of ever becoming an MP.

          • David

            Seriously, Labour have employed Shaneel Lal? Wow that’s crazy I certainly get the feeling he would be a highly unsuitable candidate for any position of power.

            • Molly

              The Labour Government had already employed him during the last six years as an advisor to the Ministry of Education.

              I'm assuming the current cropping of government employers may have ended that contract, making his employment with Labour a shift rather than a new decision.


              • SPC

                So anyone working in a public service job is working for the *** (party) government and an employee in an MP's office is working for the party of the MP?

                • Shanreagh

                  I'm joining you in your Farcebook-like response SPC to say

                  'Not necessarily'

                • Molly

                  No, of course not. You are right.

                  More accurately: The recent clearout of consultants MAY have meant that he was available for work. His advocacy and consultancy work, MAY have meant – like others in the same situation – that he reached out to his existing network for employment. Which MAY have included members of the Labour Party.

            • Robert Guyton

              More unsuitable that Uffindell? Or less?

          • SPC

            Employed by a Labour MP.

            I wonder if a National Party member ever considered ending party membership because a homosexual/lesbian was employed by an MP?

            • Robert Guyton

              How many National Party members ever considered ending party membership because of … anything at all?

              • SPC

                That party is the ultimate self interest cartel. Middle class just wants a tax cut (no CGT, no estate taxes), a lower MW (lower employment cost), less spent on poor people (welfare/state housing etc).

            • Shanreagh

              Is there some reason you are missing the point here SPC? It has nothing to do with his sexuality but everything to with his character/personality which is wanting.

              Shaneel Lal was in large part responsible for the massing of people in Albert park in March 2023 that prevented women from speaking. Notably (some) the political left seem captured by the phrase 'transwomen are women' (tip they remain male in every single cell in their male bodies)

              The image of PM Hipkins fluffing about trying to answer the question from Sean Plunket on 'what is a woman?' is hard to remove from one's mind. The image of foul mouthed tweets from Lal also.

              Shaneel Lal & cohorts are in large part reponsible for the rise in the questioning of routine biology.

              So I am not sure what he brings unless there is some sort of mana in bringing some sort of anti woman, anti science person to Labour. It certainly keeps up the 'good work' enabling many to wonder what is going on with the left in NZ and to laugh at us.

              Anyway we are not concerned about Nat party. Their have been many 'own goals' from the Nats with their MPs.

              Somehow many thought that the Labour Party would not be doing such a thing. That Labour had an eye on the optics, that Labour had learned something from the inept handling of the LWS protests at Albert Park.

              It is the Labour Party that many are stratching their heads about in the employement of Lal. It shows to many how far away the Labour Party has strayed from any pretence that women, as a whole, are important to them.

              • Robert Guyton

                To suggest that "the Labour Party has strayed from any pretence that women, as a whole, are important to them." is odd, imo. The Labour Party, I assume, will be acutely aware that women are important to them – do you think they've decided, "Nah, we don't need them/their votes" Pretence? Hardly. They weren't pretending in the first place, so how could they have strayed? Have you noticed, I presume you have, that there are women in the Labour Party? Do you assume they are voiceless? Doesn't seem that way to me.

                • Shanreagh


                  So how come the employment of Lal seems to have gone unremarked on?

                  How come Hipkins was so gauche and surprised with the question from Plunket. His minders were so blind to the fact that 'something' was building up that they did not see the need to brief the PM

                  How come Labout as a whole has not condemned the violence meted out towards women at Albert Park?

                  All I am saying is that Lal seems on the face of it to bring little to the party and what he does bring, should be weighed against his generally anti social views in other walks of life. With 100s of competent policy analysts etc being shed from the PS since the election there should have been a better pool to choose from.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    "How come Hipkins was so gauche and surprised with the question from Plunket. His minders were so blind to the fact that 'something' was building up that they did not see the need to brief the PM"

                    You're absolving Hipkins for his poor response, and blaming his minders?

                    Fair enough. Hadn't heard anyone stand up for Hipkins as you have here, Shanreagh – good for you!

                • weka

                  It might be odd to you Robert, but those of us that have been following the gender/sex wars for a long time and been involved in figuring out and addressing the concerns of women, we understand perfectly.

                  NZ Labour have a long history now of sex denialism, prioritising the perceived rights of trans identified men over women, and of their MPs failing in their duty to represent their representing women's interests as a whole.

                  Within the Labour Party membership, there are many women who don't support GII over women's rights, and it's been very hard for them to speak because of No Debate.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    " we understand perfectly."

                    So it seems. And you will tolerate no dissent or questioning of your perfect understanding.

                    • Shanreagh

                      Robert do tell us how women are wrong in our understanding?

                      How can we improve/expand the knowledge of what is affecting women of the Left.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Shanreagh – what could anyone say to a group that already "understands perfectly"?

                      If ever there was a discussion-killer, it's that!

                  • SPC

                    The party in government when people were able to identify by gender on drivers licenses and passports was National.

                    The National and ACT parties voted for the self ID legislation and do not propose to make any change.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  Young NZer of the Year 2023 employed by Labour Party – now that would be a headline to stir the blood. Has anyone else heard the same? Time to purge Labour of its trans taint.


                  Online campaign against trans-rights author Shaneel Lal takes baffling and slightly menacing turn [14 Aug 2023]
                  Asked whether he had a responsibility to check claims such as these before tweeting them, Plunket said his comment was a wind up, stating: “I think it’s Twitter”.

                  I’ve heard that Shaneel Lal has been employed as an executive assistant for Labour MP Jenny Salesa. Has anyone else heard the same? [X – 25 March 2024]

                  Caught up in a wind up? I winder…

                  • weka


                    No Debate means that progressive gender critical voices have largely been silence. That leaves a vacuum for the reactionaries and the right to drive the narrative. Unfortunately that also means that the evidence is poorly presented.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      No debate has been an issue, but I'm not seeing much evidence of it here and now – not seeing much evidence at all, actually.

                      If Labour severed/repudiated its links to the tainted trans in question, would that help? Doubt it – some taints do linger. Maybe time will tell.

                    • weka []

                      when you say here and now, do you mean TS? Or in the Labour Party? Or NZ?

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      TS – it's a great platform for debate. Is the Labour Party employing a tainted trans? Someone must know – it'll leak soon…

                • Tabletennis

                  "The Labour Party, I assume, will be acutely aware that women are important to them – do you think they've decided" ah, we don't need them/their votes"

                  Robert could it be you have been too busy with other things, or poss not interested what the Labour Party thought about the women's vote…

                  Some History :
                  The Women's Rights Party was the result of one active member splitting away from the Labour Party ….their party vote was 2,513 at the last election.
                  Also many (men and women) voted for NZF in the last election, thinking they would hold to their promise to address the 'genderism' language that had infiltrated NZ Govenment Departments.

                  "Genderism"= the denial of sexed bodies, among other things
                  Remember NZ claims to be secular society.

              • SPC

                So it is the politics of the advocacy for the group the person is part of, not their identity or sexuality …

                You oppose the cause and want no one in support of that cause to be a member of or employed by the Labour Party. I get it all right.

                • weka

                  First you suggest that a lesbian considering stopping her long AP to the Labour Party over the hiring of Lal is because she is homophobic.

                  Secondly, after it's been explained, you now say it's about objection to the 'cause', even after Shanreagh specifically said it was about Lal and his character.

                  If you still don't understand the point here I suggest you ask for clarification rather than making shit up.

                  • Shanreagh

                    Thanks Weka, agree this is much better said than I would have said.

                  • SPC

                    First you suggest that a lesbian considering stopping her long AP to the Labour Party over the hiring of Lal is because she is homophobic.

                    Show me where I did that.

                    • weka

                      Visubversa: thinking about cancelling my AP because Labour employed Lal

                      SPC: "I wonder if a National Party member ever considered ending party membership because a homosexual/lesbian was employed by an MP?"

                      At the least, you are blatantly misrepresenting visub's point. At worse you are suggesting that her reasons were because the Lab MP had employed someone who is queer.

                      If you didn't mean the latter, now is your chance to clarify.

                    • SPC

                      No I was not.

                      I was comparing someone on the left considering leaving a left wing party because an MP hired a transgender activist to someone on the right leaving a right wing party because an MP hired someone who was a homosexual/lesbian rights activist.

                      That this requires an explanation is how absurdly difficult it is to debate this issue on the site.

                    • weka []

                      ok, that’s kind of what I was thinking. This is how I interpreted that:

                      RW person quits National over them hiring a gay rights activist = homophobia

                      therefore if a LW person quits Labour over them hiring a trans rights activists, this equates to transphobia.

                      The problem here is this:

                      1. it’s not quitting over a TRA (although that might be an issue too). It’s quitting over this particular TRA because of who he is and what he has already done
                      2. Lal’s brand of TR activism is deeply misogynistic. Gay rights historically hasn’t been about removing other people’s rights, nor transgressing other people’s boundaries.

                      I will also point out that rather than saying gay rights activist, you in fact said gay person,

                      “I wonder if a National Party member ever considered ending party membership because a homosexual/lesbian was employed by an MP?”

                      Which is where the confusion probably started.

                      So complain all you like about having to explain things, but I will just reinforce the fact that too many people currently think they can do short comments and then complain when people get the wrong end of the stick.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      "That this requires an explanation is how absurdly difficult it is to debate this issue on the site."


                    • SPC

                      You replied to my comment of 11.49am, so the elaboration of my 10.07 comment had already occurred.

                      So what form of transright's activism is not misogynist, if you are claiming it is Lal's version that is?

                • weka

                  You oppose the cause and want no one in support of that cause to be a member of or employed by the Labour Party. I get it all right.

                  I can't speak for Shanreagh, but on the face of it this is just stupid. It's also wilfully ignorant, when the rest of us know that the problem is Lal.

                  • SPC

                    If it is not Lal being a transgender rights activist, what is the character issue?

                    • David

                      His (Shanel lal) character issue can be put down to the type of attitude that screams “Im right, you’re wrong” and “how dare you contradict me”. If he was a regular straight white dude had a regular professional job as say a manager with staff, working in finance then he would be highly problematic. But he is politically to the left and has very a fixed ideology that he won’t accept being questioned, let alone challenged. Because “we” mustn’t upset the guy, “we”go down the wrong path because “we” are scared of being denounced as being impure.

                      Surely this should be seen as a warning for us all

                      Only the almighty is perfect and beyond reproach. If we as an individual reach the stage when we are unquestionably right, our time in this world has com to an end. Mortal men who challenge the gods inevitably end up as despots.

                    • weka

                      Lal was very instrumental in the violence that happened at LWS Auckland. In the week leading up he was running terf = nazi lines, on national television, and egging on the people that eventually became a mob.

                      He's a misogynist. After the event, he used victim-blaming rhetoric about women who had been subjected to violence, on this Linkd In

                      He uses lies in his activism, he's a loose unit in that sense and that make him a liability for any political party.


                      In that interview he also made out that KJK was a reactionary nutjob by saying that she thinks people are being murdered and put into a blender. In fact in one of her videos she referred to a known case in the UK where that was done to a 14 year old girl who was probably kidnapped by grooming gangs (which KJK also talked about and is also a known thing).

                      So here is Lal completely misrepresenting a political opponent and a political situation. It's just stupid having someone like that working politics.

                    • David []

                      It’s interesting that he used “nazi” to describe a group of woman who he disagrees with. He is so unaware of his own ideological character, that he doesn’t realise the similarities between himself and the character of those Germans caught up with the undying belief of the nazi ideology in the 1930’s.

          • Robert Guyton

            We must now dredge through the employees of every party in order to decide who we will vote for – exhausting, but necessary!!

            • Shanreagh

              Well speaking very generally you can get a good idea of the cause by the people those espousing the cause choose as employees. This is not a Public Service employment but a time limited, hopefully, political employment.

          • Robert Guyton

            "Well, now that the Labour Party is employing Shaneel Lal"

            Was there a link to accompany/support your claim, Visubversa?

            It's customary/required here on TS. Not sure how your comment slipped through the net.

            • weka

              It's customary/required here on TS. Not sure how your comment slipped through the net.

              The only time people are pre-emptively required to provide a link up front is when they quote.

              Sometimes we also ask people to provide links as part of backing up arguments. As per the Policy,

              What we’re not prepared to accept are pointless personal attacks, or tone or language that has the effect of excluding others. We are intolerant of people starting or continuing flamewars where there is little discussion or debate. This includes making assertions that you are unable to substantiate with some proof (and that doesn’t mean endless links to unsubstantial authorities) or even argue when requested to do so. Such comments may be deleted without warning or one of the alternatives below may be employed. The action taken is completely up to the moderator who takes it.

              In this case, that Lal has been employed by a Labour MP has been discussed enough that you will find this from a simply google or TS search.

              The mods take a very dim view of people misrepresenting TS policy and moderation.

              If you want to know about something, ask. Please stop hassling people about this.

              You are clearly not understanding how this works despite repeated explanations. I'm sick of explaining it over and over. If I see you making asides about the moderation that undermines moderation, I will moderate.

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                In this case, that Lal has been employed by a Labour MP has been discussed enough that you will find this from a simply google or TS search.

                Robert might have been seeking evidence that supports the oft-discussed belief that Lal is, or has been, employed by a Labour Party MP.

                According to my sources (Google), there's no question Lal was a member of Ministerial Youth Advisoty Group (Education) – starting at age 17.

                Lal advised the Minister of Education, Chris Hipkins for three years [from 2017] as a member of the Minister's youth advisory group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaneel_Lal#Other_work

                Ministerial Youth Advisory Group
                Learn about the Ministerial Youth Advisory Group and its members

                If you have questions about the Youth Advisory Group, email: youth.voice@education.govt.nz

                Lal has sat on Amnesty International's Youth Task Force. Lal has served as a Global Youth Leader for Open Government Partnership. In 2019, Lal was selected by Jenny Salesa to represent Manukau East in the New Zealand Youth Parliament.

                General Debate Speech Shaneel Shavneel Lal Youth Parliament 2019 [YouTube – 3 and a half minutes]

                I'd like to know whether Lal is, or has been, employed (in the usual sense of the word) by the Labour Party or by a Labour party MP. How hard can it be to provide evidence – surely it would have been leaked by now?

                Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but the rush to accept Lal's employment by Labour as a (convenient?) truth is to no-one's credit, imho.

                https://twitter.com/KatrinaBiggs2/status/1772003178458026063 (9:50 am)

                https://twitter.com/kaiviti_cam/status/1772005922786992586 (10:01 am)

                Cam Slater – ffs. Btw, this is not intended as harassment – I want the truth.
                You can’t handle the truth!

                • weka

                  Chris Hipkins recently confirmed it in an interview with Sean Plunket. That is now behind a paywall but the following day (I think) Plunket said this,


                  If someone can't find something and wants evidence, all anyone has to do is ask. Just like you did.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Thanks weka for that link to a video of Ovens' interview with Plunkett.

                    "Jill Ovens on Shaneel Lal’s position in the Labour Party"

                    [@ 0:22] And at the end of the interview I [Plunkett] quizzed him [Hipkins] about the employment by the Labour party of a man called Shaneel Lal…

                    [@1:52] He [Hipkins] also defended the employment of Shaneel Lal as an executive assistant and policy researcher in the Labour party – we understand in the office of the MP Jenny Salesa, for whom he was a youth MP some years ago.

                    [@ 3.00] Jill, were you surprised yesterday, on the anniversary of Albert Park, to hear that Shaneel Lal was – had been employed by the Labour party.

                    [@ 6:31] Would you go back [to the Labour party] if Shaneel Lal was still working for the Labour party at Parliament?

                    The title of that YouTube video seems to leave no room for doubt that Lal holds a "position" in the Labour party (perhaps, "we understand", as a policy researcher in Salesa's office) – Ovens' says [@ 3:48] "it wouldn't be surprising if she [Lal] worked through that [Salesa's] office".

                    Which is all well and good, but please forgive me for wanting to hear what Hipkins said, rather than what Plunkett said Hipkins said, and Ovens' reaction to what Plunkett said Hipkins said.

                    Also, please accept that I'm not saying Hipkins didn't confirm Lal is employed as an executive assistant and policy researcher in the Labour party – it's just that I haven't personally seen/heard Hipkins confirm this, or read a transcript of what Hipkins said, so I don't know.

                    Lastly, weka, if you can confirm that Hipkins said what Plunkett said he said on Plunkett's platform, then that would be good enough for me.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Brilliant link weka – Lal "is working for one of our [Labour's] MPs" – ta.

                  • joe90

                    Anderson is hard core anti left,

                    Anderson wants to put women back on the urinary leash, too.

                    • weka

                      you've no idea how fucking enraging it is that the liberal left have forced the situation to the point were left wing gender critical feminists like myself have to rely on him for evidence.

                      No Debate handed power to him directly.

    • adam 3.2

      One more reason why I really loath the liberal left weka. They are just pathetic, no better than the liberal right. Two sides of a very destructive coin.

      • weka 3.2.1

        thing that fucks me off is that the right seem to have the best thinkers atm. I watch/listen and find myself nodding and then they say something that just reminds me how terrible their world view is lol.

        • David

          The left certainly has a lot of good thinkers, however they have to be very careful with what they say and how they say it.

        • Incognito

          I find that many Right views & opinions sound very similar to generative AI: persuasive, compelling, and convincing (bordering on manipulative if/when wielded in certain situations targeting certain receptive audiences). However, at the same time they tend to circle around in variations of the same (neoliberal/economic) themes underpinning and congruent with their ideological framework, lack creativity and originality, and fall into traps of self-referential and self-fulfilling claims & conclusions similar to the intrinsic bias and hallucinating of gen-AI. They also tend to show considerable weakness in debating of moral and ethical dilemmas with their one-size-fits-all approach to personal and corporate freedoms that is dichotomous and uncompromising by default.

          • Shanreagh

            They also tend to show considerable weakness in debating of moral and ethical dilemmas with their one-size-fits-all approach to personal and corporate freedoms that is dichotomous and uncompromising by default.

            This was not always the approach of the right. Every now and again you catch a glimpse of the 'old right'. Chris Finlayson being one thinker from the Right.

            Since the neo-lib times the Right seems to view everything through an economic lens. This to me is why they now lack any declared aspirations for the betterment of NZ & NZers that does not hark back to some sort of $$$ approach. It has been bred out of them. I am not sure the current lot is capable of lifting their eyes higher than some sort of economic shop till.

            • Robert Guyton

              Finlayson can be arrogantly dismissive. If you're okay with that, he's a great guy to talk with 🙂

              • Shanreagh

                This is not what I am meaning at all. How many thinkers are 'difficult' from the point of view of others?

                I'd venture to say that every single person who has made a foray into public life with beliefs that are not the bog standard stuff will have upset someone along the way. That someone has then gone on to to say, 'but he is so rude', 'he is so dismissive'.

                This is a great quote from GB Shaw from 'Man & Superman'. It uses the meaning of 'reasonable' of compliant, of seeing no need to question..etc

                George Bernard Shaw said “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

                In my world we'd protect thinkers even with their foibles, by looking at the content & generally not their personal characteristics.

                • Robert Guyton

                  Sure. I've spoken kanohi ki te kanohi with Chris Finlayson – I didn't find him difficult, but recognised his bias and his style.

                  You write,

                  "In my world we'd protect thinkers even with their foibles, by looking at the content & generally not their personal characteristics."

                  Do you clasp then, Shaneel Lal to your bosom?

                  They're clearly a thinker,

                  • Shanreagh

                    Lal a thinker? You must be joking. His tweets would disabuse anyone of that notion, his inability to recognise the views/rights of others, his unabashed violence of thought/speech.

                    The claim to a be thinker falls by an examination of the content that I have seen.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      I haven't looked, tbh.

                      Doesn't interest me much. Do you worry they'll become a powerful influence through their new position?

                      This is deeply worrying. Our own Trump in the making, you think?

                  • Traveller

                    I'll be gentle.

                    Before labelling someone a 'thinker', you really should do your homework.

                    1. On a discussion on Marae, about of all things freedom of expression, Lal said this “due to the transgender agenda, cisgender women are being kidnapped, blended and put into meat for human consumption”. The BSA clipped Lal's wings. Misleading claim over Posie Parker views breached accuracy standard (bsa.govt.nz)

                    2. On Twitter, Lal posted this comment “Dear Threaders, Can we agree that we won’t tolerate TERFs on Threads. They've made the lives of trans people living hell on almost all platforms. Let’s not allow their hatred to poison this app too. Requested with love.” Lal doesn't show much love for women who happen to be gender critical. Why are people threatening to boycott Spark NZ? | Stuff

                    3. In an article in the Herald (Shaneel Lal: Politicians need to lighten up – NZ Herald), Lal again inviked the term 'TERFS', describing them as "self-proclaimed women’s rights activists".

                    I'll leave it there because I promised to be gentle. But just in case you're willing to look at some of the tweets Shanreagh refers to below, you can see them at MEDIAWATCH: Can Shaneel Lal really claim people are critical because of topless photos? | The Daily Blog.


          • Robert Guyton

            Agree with Incognito, I.

          • David

            The same can be said about some on the left. Inflexible political ideology is similar to a one eyed Canterbury supporter. It’s the psychology of the individual, it’s kinda okay with your favourite sports team, but it’s not okay with governing the country.

            Maybe we (the public or society in general) need more open discussion about how we debate issues, it seems to me that the bullies are in control and have a greater say than those of us who wish to fully understand ideas. Mind you I come from an engineering background, before my current career. I could design a product or a system that worked perfectly on paper, but we built the prototypes, refined the designs, to ensure the the product could actually be manufactured, and would actually do what it was designed to do. One thing that I would come across, were the guys who believed that they were brilliant, but were completely unaware of their lack of technical competence. Rather than admitting that their knowledge was lacking in certain areas, they would deliberately undermine and attack their more competent colleagues. I think this was the first time that I’d heard about narcissistic personality disorders. So I’m wondering if people who hold ideologically rigid beliefs have risen to their level of incompetence and are unwilling to accept that they are wrong, or have something to learn, in order to protect their fragile self belief of themselves. One thing these guys had in common was their victimhood, they always blamed others for their failings, they were also masters at manipulating others to come to their side, even when we had absolute proof that the design could not possibly work. Sorry a bit off topic…

            • Incognito

              Yeah, the second long paragraph was not a strong analogy, IMO, and going off-topic a wee bit.

              I don’t consider Left and Right ideologies as equivalent on a simple linear axis (e.g. one of the two axes of political compasses) or, simplistically, the other side of the coin (which is an example of dichotomous thinking). In addition, there are distinct differences, IMO, in how adherents and advocates (and activists) of various ideologies interpret and apply their respective sets of values, beliefs, and ideas.

              I’d say that some ideologies are intrinsically more open, more inclusive, more flexible, and more compromising, for example, than others.

          • weka

            I'm starting to think there is this emerging class of righties whose politics are primarily involved in establishing truth and honesty. They're quite different from the right wing who favour misrepresentation or say Dirty Politics. In addition to Kisin and Foster from Triggernometry, I would say Peter Boghossian is the same (and would be interested to hear what you think of his Street Epistemology work if you look at it).

            I don't find them running the kinds of AI-esque arguments that you are meaning, and my admiration is for their technique and not their politics. Outside of TS, I don't see a lot of space for holding to truth and honesty in LW spaces, although that is no doubt also a reflection of the online spaces I am in. But for the most part, the left seem more occupied with ideology than truth.

            This is the reason for the overlap between people like Triggernometry and the left/centre left GC people. Both sides know not just that humans can change sex is a lie, but that the lie is a really big, important one in terms of denying material reality.

            • joe90

              I'm starting to think there is this emerging class of righties whose politics are primarily involved in establishing truth and honesty.

              Not sure Kisin and Foster are establishing truth and honesty by platforming some of the worst people on the planet – anti-Islam activist Carl Benjamin, who happens to hate women and Jews and loves Tommy Robinson, actual fascist Sebastian Gorka, a self-proclaimed member of Hungarian Nazi group the Order of Vitéz and supporter of the banned fascist cosplay paramilitary group Magyar Gárda, professional Islamophobe and promoter of the great replacement racist conspiracy theory Douglas Murray, Jordan Peterson, Nigel Farage, Melanie Phillips, Andy Ngo, Chris Rufo, etc.

              • weka

                establishing might not be the best word, I will think on that.

                Just starting to listen to one of the CB interviews now. Here's Risin at the start,

                One of the things that I always liked about our conversations is that when you first came on the show we probably didn't agree on much. We've probably moved somewhat since, towards some of the views that you had, or maybe we unearthed some of the views we already had over time. But one of the things I always appreciated about you is your willingness to engage with people in conversation who have different opinions.

                So CB is far right. I don't think that bothers RW men as much as it bothers us on the left. So that interview doesn't mean that the techniques they use aren't about honesty and truth.

                If the left's response is to go 'nazi sympathiser', that will convince people on the left, many on the centre left, and even some centrists and centre right. It's not going to make use the majority.

                Which is to say, condemn the far right, for very good reasons I assume we both know. But if you also take out the centre right in that critique, how will the left ever win? That's not a rhetorical question, I really want to know what the strategy is. Almost no-one ever says.

        • Robert Guyton

          That may seem so to you, weka, but they don't and they never have. If you find yourself nodding, check to see if you are still awake.

          • weka

            How many Triggernometry episodes have you watched Robert? Which ones?

            • Robert Guyton

              How many episodes of Nate Hagens have you watched, weka? Which ones?

              • weka

                in the absence of a straight answer, I'll take that as you having watched none of them. Odd then that you feel qualified to state that they are never good critical thinkers.

                The irony is that your response is a classic example of the particular approach of the liberal left to this issue. Why bother making an actual argument when you can just make ideological and unevidenced assertions? The reason that Kisin and Foster are so good at what they do is that they eschew that form of debate and instead favour seeking truth by communicating, ideas exchange, and digging into issues. It's also why they can interview such a wide range of people and still be interesting despite their RW politics. Making an assertion about something is really the lowest form of debate by comparison.

                But thanks for providing such a good example of the problem.

                Also, as I pointed out in my original comment, those three RW men were easily able to pin point, name and explain the misogyny, whereas the liberal left are no longer able to do that and either actively or passively support the misogyny instead.

                • Robert Guyton

                  " Odd then that you feel qualified to state that they are never good critical thinkers."

                  I stated that??

                  Please provide quote and link. You'll have noticed, no doubt, that my comment is in response to yours here:


                  5 April 2024 at 10:29 pm

                  which doesn't mention Triggernometry at all, so far as I can see.

                  Perhaps you've jumped the gun/have a hair-trigger?

                  Keen to hear your response.

                  • Robert Guyton


                  • weka

                    Weka: long comment about a Triggernometry episode and their ability as RW men to recognise gross misogyny while the left is ignoring or sanctioning same misogyny.

                    Adam (in response to that long comment):

                    One more reason why I really loath the liberal left weka. They are just pathetic, no better than the liberal right. Two sides of a very destructive coin.

                    Weka (in response to Adam and in reference to the Triggernometry comment):

                    thing that fucks me off is that the right seem to have the best thinkers atm. I watch/listen and find myself nodding and then they say something that just reminds me how terrible their world view is lol.

                    Robert (in response to weka's response to Adam):

                    That may seem so to you, weka, but they don't and they never have. If you find yourself nodding, check to see if you are still awake.

                    Weka: how many episodes of Triggernometry have you watched Robert?

                    Robert: doesn't answer and diverts

                    Weka: that's no episodes then. And,

                    Odd then that you feel qualified to state that they are never good critical thinkers.


                    • Robert Guyton

                      "Robert (in response to weka's response to Adam):"

                      No, weka, my response (check the numbers was to 3.2.1 –


                      5 April 2024 at 10:29 pm

                      "thing that fucks me off is that the right seem to have the best thinkers atm. I watch/listen and find myself nodding and then they say something that just reminds me how terrible their world view is lol."

                      You're pinging me for refusing to answer a question from you about something I'd not even come near to mentioning, alluding to, knowing about!

                      What gives?

                    • weka []

                      Yes, and my response at 3.2.1 was to Adam at 3.2

                      Adam 3.2
                      Weka 3.2.1
                      Robert (.3 because others had already replied to me)

                • Tabletennis

                  heart thank you Weka, indeed, as you say Triggernometry and Street Epistemology work with Peter Boghossian are interesting; to see random people either stick to their initial point of view or slowly changing as they get more information… and the questions become more challenging as they go.

                  • weka

                    I love PB's work. That whole thing about getting people to think about their beliefs in a situation that is non-confrontational, he is really good at it.

                    (he also made a tit of himself this week by picking a fight with feminists online and then doubling down. Like he took a lid off and all his own beliefs came out. Interesting and weird in a man who is so good at remaining neutral in other situations).

                  • weka

                    Might see if I can find a good Street Epistemology to put on up TS. Let me know if you have any in mind.

                    • Tabletennis

                      Here are but two suggestion:

                      Wokeness & Aliens w/ Michael Shellenberger & Michael Shermer | Spectrum Street Epistemology

                      Bestselling authors and esteemed public intellectuals Michael Shermer and Michael Shellenberger discussed a number of topics ranging from religion to alien life.

                      Genspect Founder Stella O'Malley & The Gay of the Year, Menno Kuijper | Spectrum Street Epistemology

                      Stella, a psychotherapist and author, and Menno, a video creator who is gay, both share a similar gender-critical viewpoint. Though, they disagree on some points, notably on whether the term "trans people" should even be used. This leads to a discussion on the importance of language, especially regarding trans issues. Finally, they discuss autogynephilia and consent.

      • Robert Guyton 3.2.2

        No one should loathe " the liberal left weka."

        They're the opposite of loathsome, Adam 🙂

        • weka

          the liberal left is a term I use to name the subset of the left who have abandoned class analysis in favour of identity politics. I prefer it because the term identity politics is weaponised by the left. It also references that the elevating of liberty over community.

          Adam probably has a somewhat difference usage, with more emphasis on historical leftist critique of political liberalism and class.

          Either way, if you take it to mean left wing people who are socially liberal, you are wrong.

        • SPC

          It is the terminology used by the right to attack those liberal on social policy, if they are also left wing (social democratic and or socialist), adopted by others – whom someone called the "haters and wreckers", who divide against others on the left, because their cause is more important.

          • weka

            that's confused. The haters and wreckers phrase was Helen Clark's in response to Māori protest over the Foreshore and Seabed Act.

            If those of us on the left cannot name dynamics within the left without being called haters and wreckers, who exactly is doing the dividing here?

            Within feminism we name liberal feminism to distinguish it from other kinds of feminism. This matters because the mainstream tends to think liberal feminism = feminism.

            Likewise, the conflating identitarian politics with leftism in general. Ime the right don't use the term liberal left when criticising identity politics, they just call it the left. Which is in accurate because identity politics doesn't usually concern itself with the labour movement or class analysis.

            • adam

              At the end of the day it's because the liberal left can't handle it being pointed out they are frauds. They have wreaked the socialist program. They have embraced identitarian politics and the destruction that has wrought. They have supported hard right economics for the last 40 odd years – with all the harm that has caused.

              And yet any one who calls them on their bullshit is ""haters and wreckers", who divide against others on the left"

              Time to get the house in order, and sweep out the bullshitters, fakes and lairs.

              But for many that is just too hard. To hard to face up to the fact the people they embraced as an ally – were in fact, not.

              SPC you may not like me and that is fine – but I'm at least honest enough with myself to know your not the enemy. But you have bedded down with people who are. And like our Great Grand parents we need to remove ourselves from those who offer up all the right words, and empathetic language, when their actions do not match their words.

              • SPC

                One can make the case that the 4th Labour government undertook a neo-liberal market reform. MP's were misled into thinking that not managing an economy for the nation state peoples well-being was bringing a backwater colony into the wider global market world. That this and the anti-nuclear policy and Treaty moves (that National continued with) made for a progressive modernisation of our society.

                They should have focused on the gains from the 1983 CER, maintained ownership of assets and state capability and like Oz, operated within the constraint of keeping unemployment low.

                Yet the 5th Labour government protected state housing – restored income related rents, provided tertiary debt relief for local workers, supported low income families, increased the MW and invested in retirement saving for those over 65. These all continue.

                Yeah they and the 6th one have together left undone, a "FPA", expanding sickness into ACC, a more significant increase in state (income related) housing, and failed to protect people with a rent freeze, or realised the appropriate tax system to reduce inequality etc.

                Sure Labour incrementalism, not being NACT – incumbency first is stifling. Labour party members can own that fight.

                I've never voted Labour (voting pre MMP was absurd), I've always preferred Greens.

                Greens and this TPM will ensure a future Labour led government has some backbone.

            • SPC

              If every group, that thinks their one issue is more important than the common cause, did what the 2005 era Maori MP's did – what would be left of Labour?

              The National Party does not do that, they seek to be the largest party – the Labour was last that that in 2005.

              TPM is back into the centre-left fold from its centrist dalliance with National (2005-2017), but there have long been calls for the “environmentalists” in the Green Party to do as they did.

              the liberal left is a term I use to name the subset of the left who have abandoned class analysis in favour of identity politics. I prefer it because the term identity politics is weaponised by the left. It also references that the elevating of liberty over community.

              I doubt that the either the liberal left, or socially liberal right have abandoned class analysis – it still determines how they vote.

              The liberal left vote Labour (and Greens) because of their support for a more economically just and environmentally responsible government.

              Adam probably has a somewhat difference usage, with more emphasis on historical leftist critique of political liberalism and class.

              There is a middle class division between classic liberals – those who prefer social democracy (and side with working class Labour) and those who prefer conformity with the capitalist market order (National and worse).

              There are others who want a well regulated economy and well managed governance. Those who either support, or do the work of technocrat moderation of whatever the the left and right parties in governments do.

              Those who reject either groups from the "working class team" are in reality advocating for a small more pure party to wait for system failure before being electable. Then comes the change …

              • weka

                I doubt that the either the liberal left, or socially liberal right have abandoned class analysis – it still determines how they vote.

                How so? Plenty of people vote for as you say their support for a more economically just and environmentally responsible government. That doesn't inherently involve class analysis. Plenty of people still voting for parties that will protect the capital gains in property they own for instance. Or who want a nicer version of neoliberal capitalism.

              • weka

                If every group, that thinks their one issue is more important than the common cause, did what the 2005 era Maori MP’s did – what would be left of Labour?

                I don’t really see how that follows on from what I said. Also, I’m fine if Labour splinters into several parties at this point. We’re in an electoral stalemate that will continue to block climate action. We’re approaching the point where anything will be better than that.

                But I don’t think what I am saying is equivalent to every group making their own issue more important than the common cause. In fact, the only people doing that are the genderists who use No Debate, that is literally what they are doing. The rest of us are all just bringing out issue to the table to be worked through.

                (unless you were referring to adam, who does take a more radical approach).

                • adam

                  unless you were referring to adam, who does take a more radical approach

                  Thanks weka, that is correct.

                  I'm sure I'm not the only person who is sick and tired of having to listen to people say they believe in a socialist vision, and yet they keep supporting far right economics. Tear apart social movements and moan nothing can be done, apart from very small incremental change. Then support class war, by doing sweet bugger all to fight against austerity.

                  They they will cancel anyone who disagree with their take on the dumb as fuck cultural wars, or the purity of their identify politics.

                  Yes I put class first, simply because the poor in this country have been getting fucked by the liberal left and the liberal right in this country for the last 40 years.

                  They are not the friend of working people.

      • Robert Guyton 3.2.3

        Adam loathes the liberal left; "they are pathetic".

        *Cheers, Adam.

        *wonders why Adam's here

        • adam

          Why, because I'm not a liberal, never have been, and never liked them.

          Social democrats on the other hand are good people.

          As are free communists and anarchists.

          You know the left – before liberals pranced around pretending they gave two shits about the poor, the down trodden and hard working people. Or more over, pretended they were left wing. When they are nothing more the the usual worshipers of cupidity. And shit stirrers who play silly little mind games – and other Bullshit like cultural wars.

          Maybe you might want to ask yourself why your here Robert Guyton, and if your one of the liberals or someone who is actually on the left rather than a tool for the Tory wankers?

          • Robert Guyton

            It's clear you're neither liberal, nor Left, adam, hence my question and in answer to your suggestion that I ask myself why I'm here, though it was somewhat garbled, I have and I liked my answer!

            • weka

              what makes you think Adam is not left? He's been writing on TS for a very long time from a left anarchist and class analysis perspective in a NZ and international context (at least in my view that's where he is). How is that not left?

              He is also socially liberal (liberal with a small l, as opposed to being a liberal in the sense of liberalism), eg around issues like gay rights.

              Do you understand the differences between Liberalism and leftism? It's a bit confused at times in NZ because historically the middle classes in particular have called themselves liberal, when they mean small l socially liberal, not Liberalists.


              • Robert Guyton

                Good question, weka! Is this also a good question?

                Robert Guyton…

                6 April 2024 at 2:12 pm

                To your question, I wrote liberal with a lower-case "l". I used the upper-case "L" for the Left I believe Adam (lower-case "a"), isn't.

                • weka

                  Adam is clearly socially liberal in the sense of supporting gay rights kind of NZ liberal values. What I call small l liberal. You've given zero reasons for saying he is not liberal.

                  He rejects Liberalism. So do many leftists. Rejection of Liberalism doesn't mean someone is not left. You've given zero reasons for saying he is not left.

            • adam

              Are you being obtuse on purpose Robert?

              Love how you throw dirt, like other liberals here – Gosman and Puckish rouge comes to mind – you never really say what you mean.

              A liberal is someone who supports liberalism as representing their political world view. Like many on the left I reject liberalism as a economic/political system and the people who support it.

              Wow so supporting, economic freedom, freedom of association, workers rights, the rights of women, gays, indigenous rights, disabled self determination and opposing authoritarianism in all it's forms – is what – right wing now?

          • Robert Guyton

            "worshipers of cupidity" though, sounds intriguing!

            Care to elucidate, Adam?

            • adam

              I thought it was pretty much as clear as you can get.

              But if your having problems here is a link to a dictionary definition of cupidity.

              • Robert Guyton

                "worshipers of cupidity" is "as clear as you can get"?

                Not to me, without elucidation from you, Adam – do you mind?

                Referring me to a dictionary for just one of those words is… kinda rude, I reckon.

                • adam

                  What don't you understand in particular? What from what I said is unclear to you?

                  • Robert Guyton

                    The meaning of "worshippers of cupidity" 🙂

                  • Robert Guyton

                    I followed your advice, adam, in order to understand what you wrote,

                    "worshipers of cupidity" – it sounded to me like an established phrase with a specific meaning.

                    I found, "Cupidity is a greedy desire for money and possessions."

                    "Worshippers" of cupidity then, worship the greedy desire. I imagined they might have worshipped money and possessions.

                    Is that what you meant?

                    • gsays

                      The sages tell us the love of money is the root of all evil.

                      Kinda resonates with a lot of what we see around us.

                      Inequality growing, the 'haves' have a lot more the have nots have two, three, four jobs, welfare for some of the others that are working.

                      Some have a few properties and can sleep well at night while others scurry about paying their mortgage and paying the interest. In fact, these landlords band together and get someone to advocate for them, as if they don't have a big enough advantage.



                      Warning, you may want to shower after looking at those links. The 2nd one has a few photos of some 'stupid cupids'.

                    • adam


          • Phillip ure

            Wot adam said..in previous two comments..

    • Grey Area 3.3

      Thanks for the link, Weka. I'll try and have a look but I seem to have backlog of clips like this.

      I've been trying to get my head around the intersection of trans rights and women's rights for some tine.

      I got myself into a potential spot recently when in another online space I asked the writer of an opinion piece whether they felt trans rights can erode women's rights. The person didn't reply. But another commenter said that was the same stance taken in the past in discussions about women's rights and men's rights and asked me to provide examples of trans rights eroding women's rights.

      I thought uh oh this isn't going to end well. I'm not reallly equipped for this and while I drafted a reply I haven't answered.

      I find the space confusing but essentially I feel women are being asked/forced to give up their rights for trans people. Women need safe spaces and trans people need safe spaces but why is it women have to be the ones to let people into their spaces, some of whom make some of them feel unsafe? (I realise that mostly it's people wanting to identify as female rather than the reverse).

      Competitive sports is another example. I'm guilty of over-simplifying things on occasion but I feel women should not have to compete against anyone who has the physiological advantage of starting life as a biological male. To me it's wrong and unfair.

      I saw one cycling body overseas has now decided to have a women's elite category and an open elite category where anyone can compete as a way of adressing this particular issue.

      • weka 3.3.1

        it's definitely a good idea to practice care in those conversations, especially if you are using your RL name.

        Also good is having the points and evidence ready. It's not going to convince the ideologues, but my experience is that many people will respond to thoughtful commentary backed up with evidence.

        For instance, on sport, there are TRA lines about there being no evidence that TW have an advantage over women. This is patently nonsense (most people understand the physical disparities between women and men), but there is also a lot of very good analysis and research to back this up.

        I will try and link some of the people to follow. Having a twitter account is very useful, but a FB account might suffice.

        • Grey Area

          Kia ora Weka, is X post-Musk still useful, I thought he'd turned it right and gutted it.

          I'd appreciate more links, but as I said on the "Strike" thread my energy is primarily focused elsewhere, where I believe I can actually make a difference in the life of my immediate whanau, my local community and wider afield.

          As to practising care that's why I decided to put things in reverse and back away. I'm not going to convince the person who invited me to step into a yawning, black hole and give examples of how trans rights can erode women's rights. I would rather use my energies elsewhere.

          The Standard continues to disappoint me personally about actually helping us to stand up and fight back against the awful government we have rather than just complaining about it, but I think I appreciate why you hang in there.

          • weka

            have to admit I find it pretty challenging here at times because of that reason. Debate is an important part of change, but we also need strategy, planning and action.

            I'm still trying to work out how I can write here about climate and the things we can do and what if we changed and things worked out, in a way that people will read and engage with.

    • David 3.4

      I’ve watched Triggernometry a bit as well. I wouldn’t call them right wing, not the way I see it anyway. I like how they listen and seek to understand different ideas and viewpoints without having a political spin.
      I have no idea if you if you have seen the interview with a woman who is a evolutionary psychologist. It’s really interesting about how human nature evolved and to a certain extent the part of our brains that controls our automatic behaviour is designed to help humans survive in the wilds of Africa. She points out interesting differences between men and women as well as the evolutionary reasons for the behaviour, surprisingly it has nothing to do with politics.

      • weka 3.4.1

        they're definitely right of centre in terms of politics. They're just socially liberal righties.

        I also really like how they listen and seek to understand different ideas. The impression I get is that they're secure in their politics and unafraid of ideas they disagree with. So refreshing.

    • Psycho Milt 3.5

      Then all three of them are sitting there talking about the dynamic of why the left now think it's ok to call a woman a cunt…

      I can't even express how depressing it is to watch right-of-centre interviewers explaining to left-wing men that using 'cunt' as an insulting term for a woman is deeply misogynist and especially so when used against women taking a stand for women's rights.

    • gsays 3.6

      You illustrate well, one of the problems the left, especially liberal left has.

      Instead of being able to post the link with a couple of sentences, there needs to be an explanation to avoid the 'thought terminating cliches' that emit from liberals when an idea that challenges their beliefs is expressed.

      Rather put their fingers in their ears and say 'I can't hear you.'

      Similar with Joe Rogan. He sits there and asks questions and gets answers. My best understanding is he had some Covidly controversial guests on. That got Neil Young and others upset. That denies a whole body of work that contains very interesting and challenging information from other guests. I understand Rogan now has 4 times the audience of anyone else on You Tube. (no link, sorry, my son showed me an image on his fone last night).

      Edison Research shared the top ten podcasts among US women. Unusually for a podcast chart, Joe Rogan is at number two! Podcasts with women hosts take five of the top ten spots.


      Similar to The Canadian Psychologist That Dare Not Speak His Name, I've learnt truckloads from him, but constant misrepresenting of his statements have other's beliefs trump facts.

      • weka 3.6.1

        just to check if we are on the same page, what are your critiques of Rogan and JP? (critique of each).

        • gsays

          I have found Joe Rogan fairly politically neutral (especially for an American in that it is a polarising country) or at least that is how he appears. His guests however are from all over the shop.

          JP, I feel is an old school conservative, in that he values the family, freedom of speech etc. He is a critic of the extreme left. What I learn from him comes from 30 years lecturing and is fact/evidence based.

          The reason why I commented on yr thread is that I see both getting misrepresented in their views.

          I think there is a Venn diagram vibe to JP and others. I guess you share one with him calling out trans activism and the Canadian compulsion of speech/preferred pronouns but will be on opposite sides considering his views on, say, gender pay gap.

          It's the cancelling I find self defeating and irritating, just because a wee tid bit jars with one's view of the world.

          His explanation of the monogamy 'issue' in 2018 is worth the time IMO.

          Links are NYT article, a Guardian scribe's upset at said article and JP's "On the New York Times and “Enforced Monogamy" .




          In the Guardian there is a lot of selective quoting and emphasis of attacking the messenger rather than the message.

          Edit. I will include this as I have found it profound from all parties. Sorry I haven’t found the original without a third party’s insights but they bear hearing. 15 minutes and following the Cathy Newman interview.

  4. adam 4

    Gotta wonder if 13,000 Children is enough for you all?

    You want more?

    Here is the story of just one who was murdered by the IDF and the far right Israeli government.


    • Belladonna 4.1

      Every child's death is a tragedy to their family.

      We all wish the fighting would stop. Now.

      But it won't.

      Nothing you, or I or even the NZ government can do, will persuade or influence the Israeli government to stop this war.

      Where is the pressure to force Egypt to open the Gaza border for humanitarian reasons?

      Amr's family were trying to raise international capital – in order to fund the extortionate prices Egyptian organizations are charging to even be considered for an Egyptian permit.

      From your link….

      On the day before he was killed, Amr managed to get a phone connection — telecommunications are often cut — to speak to his sister in Canada.

      “Please get us out of here,” he pleaded.

      The Egyptian firm Hala, which means “Welcome” in Arabic, provided travel permits for Gazans to enter Egypt for $350, before the Israeli assault. Since the genocide began, the firm has raised the price to $5,000 for an adult and $2,500 for a child. It has sometimes charged as much as $10,000 for a travel permit.

      Hala has offices in Cairo and Rafah. Once the money is paid — Hala only accepts U.S. dollars — the name of the applicant is submitted to Egyptian authorities. It can take weeks to get a permit. It would cost around $25,000 to get Amr’s family out of Gaza, double that if they included his widowed aunt and three cousins. This was not a sum Amr’s relatives abroad could raise quickly. They set up a GoFundMe page here. They are still trying to collect enough money.

      Egypt has adamantly refused to accept Gazan refugees. The "Palestinian cause" is more important than children's lives.

      Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi, however, has been adamant in refusing to allow humanitarian corridors or the entry of large numbers of Palestinians into Sinai. He has called it a “red line” that, if crossed, would “liquidate the Palestinian cause”.


    • Drowsy M. Kram 4.2

      Gotta wonder if 13,000 Children is enough for you all?

      To my way of thinking, there has been a disappointingly large amount of hand-wringing by 'concerned' people everywhere – it's been going on for months.

      Recent examples of refugee groups accepted by NZ include long-term detainees in Australian offshore camps, and some of those affected by conflict in Afghanistan and Russia's 'special operation' in Ukraine. Perhaps our govt should take a more ptoActive stance towards Gaza refugees – there’s still time, imho.

      Urgent Debate — Gaza Crisis—Government Response [26 March 2024]

      No Exit in Gaza [1 April 2024]
      Now, 30 years later, 2.3 million Palestinians are trapped in Gaza, but unlike Bosnia, there is no place within that small, densely populated territory that even purports to be safe. Following the Hamas-led attacks in southern Israel on Oct. 7, 2023, Israeli forces have laid waste to vast areas, reducing much of the housing to rubble, with more than 31,000 people estimated killed, according to Gaza's Health Ministry, the majority women and children.

      Most of Gaza's population has been displaced, many ordered to evacuate one area only to be bombed, starved and forced to flee again—and again. More than 1 million people who have fled to Rafah on Gaza's far southern border with Egypt live in fear as an Israeli military ground operation on Rafah and another mass evacuation looms.

      The Plight of Palestinian Refugees, Explained [5 Jan 2024]
      Palestinians are the world's largest stateless community. Here's everything you should know about their complicated plight as refugees.

      In addition to the more logistical reasons, she [Anne Irfan, a lecturer and expert in displacement with a focus on Palestinian refugee history and the modern Middle East] adds there is a “deep suspicion” that what’s happening in the Gaza Strip is “cover for a second ‘Nakba,’” referencing the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in the late 1940s.

      None of these states want to be complicit in that,” Irfan notes.

      Asked whether there’s the possibility that these countries simply don’t want the responsibility of caring for more Palestinian refugees, Norman, of Rice University, says “that certainly plays into it.” This especially applies to Egypt, given the country’s history with regard to Palestinians.

      I think there's both that historic context of not wanting to sort of be the ones to actually deal with the Palestinian issue in terms of physically hosting people,” Norman says. “But then there's also Egypt’s politics around immigration and refugees that are not just Palestinians now.

      But, she adds, the messy politics of hosting Palestinian refugees extends beyond Egypt.

      Name a country where it's not going to be politically contentious,” Norman says.

      I didn't realise that ~80% of the humans living in the Gaza Strip are refugees.

      Wouldn't it be a true Act of (Christian) kindness if our CoC govt made efforts to facilitate the evacuation of a few Gaza refugees to Aotearoa NZ. Any day now.

      NZ government urged to help evacuate Palestinians from Gaza
      [21 March 2024]
      "Other countries are doing this… Canada and Australia are getting people out. It's tricky, but it's not impossible."


      Double standard claims over special visas for Gaza refugees [1 March 2024]
      The immigration minister [Stanford] is being accused of double standards as families of those stuck in Gaza plead for the government to issue special visas so their loved ones can escape the warzone.

      She [Katrina Mitchell-Kouttab – a Palestinian from the New Zealand Arab Association] said other countries have been evacuating families since the start of the war – so the move wouldn’t be unprecedented.

      I know of a family – within three days of the war, the Japanese government got them out pretty quickly.

      • adam 4.2.1

        Interesting both commentators seem to think throwing people off their land is the solution.

        White settler mentality/programming?

  5. Belladonna 5

    Not the solution, a solution.

    Interesting that you, apparently, would rather people continued to be killed, than offer them the chance to emigrate.

    The people involved (cf Amr, which you linked to initially), would seem to disagree.


    Religious fundamentalist mentality/programming?

    • Belladonna 5.1

      NB: Mods. Don't know why this reply (at 5) didn't 'nest' as a response to 4.2.1
      Reading/writing on a desktop PC.
      No biggie if it was just one of those mysterious internet things (or even, gasp, user error).
      But just in case others are experiencing this.

      • Incognito 5.1.1

        No idea either. The comment_parent = 0, i.e., it was a stand-alone comment and not a reply to another comment. You did edit it but that wasn’t the cause either. So, I put it down to human error 😉

    • adam 5.2

      The solution is stopping the murder of civilians and ending the conflict. But you say it can't be stopped. And that sending them to other places, off their land is the way to keep them alive. It is, but the cost of that is the permanent loss of their land, and livelihood.

      I would have thought as a kiwi, at the very least you might have some idea what it means to be removed from your land. And the difficulty once removed from your land of ever getting it back.

      • Belladonna 5.2.1

        Yes. Better in exile, building a new life, than dead.

        Although, not in the mind of religious extremists.

        Most Kiwis have come to terms with the fact that they will never regain ancestral land. They build new lives. And create a future for their kids, rather than dwelling in the past. We are a nation of immigrants.

        • adam

          So Māori don't exist? Or the experience of Māori is – what exactly?

          What religious extremists? My friends who are Christians in Gaza, are not extremists. They just don't want to lose their homeland, and what it means for them to live in a land which holds meaning to them. Meaning in a spiritual and historical sense. A place which connects them to family and what it means to be a Christian in the holy lands.

          Friends in Sydney and Perth, struggle with being so far removed from the place of their birth. The mental health of the children of my friends is not great, and the suicide rates amongst the young male refuges, are bloody depressing.

          Alive yes, but in a fulsome sense of being alive. I'm not totally convinced.

          • Belladonna

            So the Irish diaspora doesn't exist. Or the African Americans?

            Newsflash. None of those people want to go 'home' – they've built new lives elsewhere – with a better future for their kids. And while the first generation struggles (all immigrants do) – the subsequent generations are part of the new country. They have heritage from their home – but become part of the new place. Their new home. And where this fails, and you have enclaves of immigrants, you end up with serious social problems in the new country.

            Given that there are less than 1,000 Christians in Gaza, I find it astonishing that you have many friends among this group.
            And, most of them want to immigrate:
            “The general thought among all Palestinian Christians now is to immigrate, after their homes and businesses were destroyed, and since there is no political horizon signalling an end to this crisis,”

            I'm assuming that you were referring to an 'attitude' of white settler ideology – rather than specifically calling me a white settler.
            I reciprocated with the 'religious extremist' attitude. I'm sure you're familiar with it in other contexts: "Better dead than XXX" (fill in type of person as you please)

            And, it really doesn't matter what you or I or the president of Egypt thinks is 'better' for the people in Gaza. They want to leave (cf your original link to Amr). Since they have no rosy-tinted glasses view that Israel is going to stop any time soon.

            Bottom line. Alive is better than dead.

            • adam

              Totally agree the last of the Palestinian Christians are going to leave. With a even smaller population on the west bank looking to move, we are seeing the end of Palestinian Christians in the Holy Lands in our life time.

              The largest population of Palestinian Christians is in Sydney, with next highest grouping being Perth. I'd also like to point out that when I say Christian – I mean those who actively adhere to Christianity, and those who consider themselves cultural Christians. That drags the numbers up a bit.

              A link for expanding on that, and it's a bloody good organization that will take donations, that will help people after they have left Gaza.


              I think we basically agree, alive is better. My problem is two fold: The end of Cultural traditions extending back millennia, and the fact that their is no political solution. Exacerbated by one side hell bent on total death and destruction of the other.

              And no I was not calling you a white settler, but the underlying influence as a set of ideas it has on society in general.

              • Belladonna

                And no I was not calling you a white settler, but the underlying influence as a set of ideas it has on society in general.

                And the same holds true for the religious fundamentalist philosophy. Which is entirely relevant in discussing the Middle East.

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