Daily review 07/12/2022

151 comments on “Daily review 07/12/2022 ”

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1. bwaghorn 1

   7 December 2022 at 6:00 pm

   https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/300757598/transgender-athletes-can-participate-in-community-sport-says-sport-nz

   So the idiocy has arrived on our shores
   • weka 1.1

     7 December 2022 at 6:21 pm

     it's been here for a while. As some of us keep banging on about 😉
   • Anker 1.2

     7 December 2022 at 7:01 pm

     Yes, yet Grant Robinson described people who opposed it as petty and small minded.

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/petty-and-small-minded-sport-minister-grant-robertson-responds-to-critics-of-sport-nz-transgender-guidelines/EHLQL6YAAFHDHI2WKMIREEOMMY/
     • Nic the NZer 1.2.1

       8 December 2022 at 8:02 am

       Correction, he described them as "pretty and small minded", according to the Herald. I think he might have been making a blonde joke actually.
   • Anker 1.3

     7 December 2022 at 7:11 pm

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018757712/the-science-of-transgender-women-in-sport

     And this by sports scienctist Ross Tucker.

     "The scientific biologicaldifference between men and women are so large they would render women irrelevant at elite level"

     "There are 10,000 men who are faster than the fastest woman in the world over 100 metres. That group of men includes 14 – 15 year olds"

     So just roll over sportswomen and accomodate these male bodied atheletes.
     • SPC 1.3.1

       8 December 2022 at 11:29 am

       The inclusion is at the community level, it might not even include domestic competition at the regional or inter-provincial level (as/when these are pathways for athletes to international competition).
   • Nic the NZer 1.4

     8 December 2022 at 8:15 am

     In sporting parlance this is known as a "hospital pass" onto the clubs and codes under sport-nz. Basically it'll be fine as long as any trans athletes taking this up are not very skilled, but if they are then there will be some media attention and protest on these codes and clubs which implemented the policy. And you'd be a bit daft as a code to push ahead with advertising your new participation policy, as that might attract some testing of the new entry threshold.
     • Anker 1.4.1

       8 December 2022 at 9:23 am

       Nic, I disagree that this will be fine as long as trans and non binary atheletes are not very skilled. A case in point is Kate Wetherley, a mountain biker who rode in the mens competition up until around 18 years.
       At local level even mediocre trans women are creating issues for women in sport. I know of two women who have left their chosen community sport because of sustaining injuries due to biological males being allowed to compete with them. I believe this will be the tip of the ice berg.

       To quote Kate "people said that we're coming in and ruining the sport, but there are way bigger isues that women in sport face" Thanks Kate for mansplaining to us that the cyclists who know they are being cheated out of a win, face far bigger issues. Kate was a mediocre cyclist when racing in the male category and now is robbing women of titles in the womens section. The arrogance and entitlement is astounding.

       Its hard to see how many of the left, who supposedly champion women's rights, are so firmly behind this and the message to women is, "come on be kind, don't be petty"

       https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/racing/article-10944351/Kate-Weatherly-Transgender-mountain-biker-issues-message-haters.html
       • Nic the NZer 1.4.1.1

         8 December 2022 at 9:33 am

         By not very skilled, I mean not really capable of winning in women's events.
         • Anker 1.4.1.1.1

           8 December 2022 at 4:32 pm

           I might have misinterpreted what you were saying Nic. My apologies.
           • Nic the NZer 1.4.1.1.1.1

             9 December 2022 at 3:27 pm

             No apologies necessary. Its actually above my expectations when anybody pays attention to anything I say anyway, and in this case provided a pretty good example of what I was describing.
       • SPC 1.4.1.2

         8 December 2022 at 11:25 am

         At local level even mediocre trans women are creating issues for women in sport. I know of two women who have left their chosen community sport because of sustaining injuries due to biological males being allowed to compete with them. I believe this will be the tip of the ice berg.

         I have heard of a case in the UK of women being injured at rugby team training. The sport here will be able to take account of this in formulating policy. If they do not do so, this will impact how successfully they build the game at community level.
     • SPC 1.4.2

       8 December 2022 at 11:22 am

       The only obligation on sports clubs is to accept law as to "gender self ID", just as everyone else will have to. Clubs however are free to limit inclusion based on player safety – this would involve physical contact sport.
       • Nic the NZer 1.4.2.1

         8 December 2022 at 11:30 am

         So the only real obligation here is, if some male team decides its playing in the woman's grade this season, then they absolutely have to be believed as genuine when they say their players are all 'non-binary'?
         • SPC 1.4.2.1.1

           8 December 2022 at 11:49 am

           I would presume the constraints then would be

           1. they are identifying that way on the field and 24/7 52 weeks as well.
           2. the sport allows “transgender” women to compete in the sport (as regards to player safety).
           • Visubversa 1.4.2.1.1.1

             8 December 2022 at 12:57 pm

             Really? That is called "gatekeeping" these days. The only thing they have to do (under Self ID) is to open their mouths and recite the magic words "I identify as –". Look at Alex Drummond in the UK. No diagnosis, no hormones, no surgery – he does not even have to shave off his beard. Identifies as a woman – and as a lesbian.

             
             • Nic the NZer …

               8 December 2022 at 1:13 pm

               This Alex Drummond looks like a budding Rhythmic Gymnast to me.
             • SPC …

               8 December 2022 at 1:16 pm

               No. The UK (maybe soon England and Wales and NI as Scotland is currently legislating self ID) does not have self ID as its legal standard (we do), so such a person would not be able to play in women's sports in England ….

               Even here, with self ID, sports could require some evidential proof (such as documentation of women's ID – drivers license/passport/changed birth certificate).
           • Nic the NZer 1.4.2.1.1.2

             8 December 2022 at 1:07 pm

             I mean it seems a bit onerous expecting sporting clubs to be monitoring their participants for a full year around competition. Couldn't they just, you know, like show the club their entire browser history, or something non invasive instead?
             • SPC …

               8 December 2022 at 1:19 pm

               Self ID law allows a person to obtain women's identity documentation such as drivers license/passport/changed birth certificate.
               • Nic the NZer …

                 8 December 2022 at 1:37 pm

                 Athletes will not need to “prove or otherwise justify their gender, sex or gender identity”, said Sport NZ in its release on Tuesday. – From the Stuff article at 1.

                 Hmmm, doesn't sound like Sports NZ is actually saying that. If they were saying that I think it would hardly be notable, because you have then some clear guide lines for sports codes and clubs to follow, e.g If they have a certificate/documentation then they can enter. But the way they are saying it seems more like the well known "don't ask, don't tell" army policy with sporting codes and clubs expected to wear any flak which results from that going wrong.
                 • SPC …

                   8 December 2022 at 2:00 pm

                   The change from test (medical – diagnosis and assisted transition etc) , to no test occurred with self ID. This is all the wording really refers to. It is the direction to them/sports bodies after the parliamentary legislation enabled self ID.
                   • Nic the NZer …

                     8 December 2022 at 2:22 pm

                     Really? Because one could clearly and simply say that as "sporting codes and clubs will not reject the gender recognition documentation issued by parliament".

                     I'm getting more of an "If they sign up for womans sport that shouldn't be challenged by anyone" vibe from the Sport NZ statement.

                     Actually I think my club might have had to ask if a couple of boys had been signed up for girls grades by accident, which they were (refunds were issued). Got a bit lucky there, I guess.
                   • SPC …

                     8 December 2022 at 4:05 pm

                     Not when the sporting bodies are free to decide on their own safety criteria.
                   • Nic the NZer …

                     8 December 2022 at 5:30 pm

                     That seems to confuse the issue further. Now the sporting codes are expected to create some kind of player safety statement to justify excluding trans women (and non-binary, whatever that actually means) from participating in the women's category. Apparently they should do this even if its just unfair, because Sport NZ doesn't present any other grounds for rejecting this participation (like maybe its considered unfair).

                     But somehow this still applies even though NZ parliament passed legislation allowing self ID and some of these potential participants can have documentation indicating they should be in that category.
   • SPC 1.5

     8 December 2022 at 11:12 am

     1. It's an acknowledgment that international level sport rules are set according to fair competition

     2. It's a direction to local sports administration as to community level sport – it speaks to how any participation is to be managed (self ID as is this is current government policy society wide).

     3. It allows individual sports to determine its own rules with regard to player safety.

     4. It does not make any sport funding conditional on allowing transgender players.

     Transgender athletes will be able to participate in sport in the gender they identify with, and will not need to “prove or … justify” their identity according to new guiding principles released by Sport New Zealand.

     The principles only apply to community level sport – not elite level sport – but it will be up to sports bodies to define where and how the trans athletes will participate.

     Sports bodies will not lose funding if they do not adopt the principles within their inclusion and diversity policies, and some organisations may have policies that reflect safety over inclusion, Sport New Zealand chief executive Raelene Castle said.
     • Craig H 1.5.1

       8 December 2022 at 1:39 pm

       Nicely put. Also, as a longtime sports administrator, the Human Rights Act does not automatically allow separate divisions within sports for women, nor for girls under 12 in any sport, so there will be sports e.g. motor racing where this debate doesn't really apply. That doesn't prevent having women's and girls' competitions/divisions in those sports/ages as measures to promote equality e.g. increase participation to equal levels, but it's not blanket by any means.
2. weka 2

   7 December 2022 at 6:23 pm

   I'm not a parent, but it's hard to understand how parents would risk this child's life in this way. Even if they believe that blood from vaccinated people might cause harm to their child, this is still a far lesser harm than death.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/480297/high-court-takes-guardianship-of-sick-baby-at-the-centre-of-dispute-over-donor-blood
   • Anne 2.1

     7 December 2022 at 6:40 pm

     Touché.

     I suppose the media will be out there in full force filming the inevitable protests of VFF and other attention seeking cults. Given they only represent around 1 to 2% of the population they should be ignored. Their views have been well and truly trashed.
   • gsays 2.2

     7 December 2022 at 6:48 pm

     Just having a wee korero with the 'health professional I see most often' about this issue.

     Jehova's Witnesses aren't down with blood transfusions. I understand they are able to 'bank' their own blood and use that. There is 'the precedent' already established that some naysayers, on this issue are keen to avoid.

     I figure this is a fairly complex and nuanced issue and I am wary of those with black and white views on it – from either side of the debate. Just another unintended consequence that is not on the terms of reference for the Royal Commission.
     • weka 2.2.1

       7 December 2022 at 7:23 pm

       and if anti-vaxers want to have that special privilege they need to do the mahi of lobbying the government to have that system set up (which also means making a coherent case). But individuals demanding this is problematic because of the precedent it sets for individuals demanding this.

       Do JW's have this concession because religious belief is protected in law?
       • gsays 2.2.1.1

         7 December 2022 at 7:35 pm

         TBF, the pfizer drug has been thrust upon us.

         Tad unfair of you to have expected them to organise and legitimise their position by now, in these turbulent times. They are parents of twins after all.

         As to the JW's I'm not sure how their 'privelege' come about.
         • pat 2.2.1.1.1

           7 December 2022 at 7:42 pm

           "They are parents of twins after all."

           ????
           • gsays 2.2.1.1.1.1

             7 December 2022 at 8:33 pm

             I am sure I heard/read the baby has a twin.
         • weka 2.2.1.1.2

           7 December 2022 at 8:05 pm

           Tad unfair of you to have expected them to organise and legitimise their position by now, in these turbulent times. They are parents of twins after all.

           I wasn't saying the parents should organise that. I'm saying that if antivaxers want this special provision they need to organise and lobby. Otherwise what is being suggested is that any time someone wants special treatment, they should get it.
           • Andy 2.2.1.1.2.1

             7 December 2022 at 8:53 pm

             They did organise and lobby, and they had their own blood donors available and ready.

             I was watching a presentation yesterday about Statins and how pharma pushes them. Some were even advocating for putting Statins in the public water supply at one point.

             Some day the public might actually thank these so-called "anti-vaxxers" for standing up to corporate tyranny.

             Apparently, according to this presenter I refer to, this dates back to Reagan liberalising the pharma industry and letting them conduct their own clinical trials.
             • weka …

               7 December 2022 at 9:55 pm

               They did organise and lobby, and they had their own blood donors available and ready.

               reread what I said. It's not what you are talking about.

               Funnily enough, I didn't see the anti-vaxxers organising around the statin all those years when overmedicalisation was happening.
             • Shanreagh …

               8 December 2022 at 10:02 am

               Having been a blood donor like my father, when we were both diagnosed as having familial high cholesterol, it was not the fact that we had both been placed on statins that was the reason why we were deemed unsuitable to continue as blood donors.

               The reason we were unsuitable was the fact of the diagnosis of familial high cholesterol. The medication we took to control it did not figure.

               In our diagnosis, and with my decision to have the vaccine there was no corporate tyranny exerted. I think you are drawing a long bow to suggest that I would ever have anything to thank anti vaxxers for.

               I always get all sides and make my own decisions on medical procedures and did not need tor read an array of conspiracy theories to get the other side.
               • weka …

                 8 December 2022 at 11:03 am

                 Andy wasn't talking about blood donation, he was referring to the overprescribing of statins generally.
                 • Shanreagh …

                   8 December 2022 at 12:48 pm

                   I realise that but having got it wrong about statins it was on the cards that he would say next that having statins is accepted in blood donations, so beware!

                   The myth making about what shows up, in our blood and for how long is something the anti vaxxers and gullible others are getting wrong, as the court case with the wee baby shows.

                   Statins are as a help against heart disease (CVD) .

                   Whether to take statins if prescribed and whether to have a vaccination is ultimately a personal decision to be made with the very best information on both sides.

                   I don't class scare tactics against the covid vaccine and statins as being the very best information.

                   I class as scare tactics unlinked statements saying that 'they' were thinking of putting statins in the water.

                   I have found several articles about statins and have linked to the latest

                   https://bigthink.com/health/statins-drinking-water-wonder-drugs/
                   • Andy …

                     8 December 2022 at 1:49 pm

                     <em> I realise that but having got it wrong about statins it was on the cards that he would say next that having statins is accepted in blood donations, so beware! </em>

                     Ahem are you referring to me? What did I get "wrong" about Statins, exactly?

                     I was relaying a claim made by someone else.
                   • weka []

                     8 December 2022 at 2:37 pm

                     Ahem are you referring to me? What did I get “wrong” about Statins, exactly?

                     You’ve been asked to provide evidence for your assertion that someone wanted to put statins in the water supply. Please prvice this evidence now. You will be in premod until both Incog and myself are satisfied. You’ve been here long enough to know two things. One is the standard of debate we expect (provide evidence for claims of fact). Two, mods hate our time being wasted by people who should know better.
                   • Andy …

                     8 December 2022 at 2:50 pm

                     @weka, the claim that "someone wanted to put Statins in the water" was made by Dr. Maryanne Demasi in this presentation:

                     She did some work for Australian ABC but her program was canned because of "misinformation"

                     I don't have any source for that claim, other than it came from Dr Demasi.

                     Particular points:

                     2:34 Debates about putting Statins in the water, and as condiments in burgers.

                     8:27, Statin Wars, Industry Bias

                     Take it or leave it. It's someone's presentation.
                   • weka []

                     8 December 2022 at 6:27 pm

                     thank-you. Next time please provide the link and points upfront. Making a note in the back end. You have a lot of form for this and the mods are sick of chasing it up.
                   • Incognito []

                     8 December 2022 at 6:58 pm

                     @ 3:00:

                     I’ve even interviewed people who’ve participated in debates in the US about putting statins in water supply.

                     Unnamed people [plural?] in unspecified debates [plural?] that is now put into a context to suit a narrative.

                     Take it or leave it. It’s someone’s presentation.

                     Nope, that’s not an option, as you used it to make and support your own conspiracy claims in this forum. You don’t get to wash your hands off this that easily and you’ll stay in Pre-Mod for a little longer.
                 • Andy …

                   8 December 2022 at 1:23 pm

                   Thank you Weka, that is correct.

                   I was also making the point that it was Reagan (allegedly) that introduced legislation to allow pharma to conduct their own clinical trials.

                   The conflict of interest should be clear.

                   My point specifically is nor pro/against statins or any other meds, but the regulatory capture that is exercised by pharma
                   • Shanreagh …

                     8 December 2022 at 1:57 pm

                     Can you actually link to what you were talking about please. It certainly read to me that you were critical of statins and was trying to link 'tyranny' in the pharma involvement in statins/vaccines. If you were not trying to make a point that big bad pharma was involved in vaccines and statins then what was the link/point?

                     I was watching a presentation yesterday about Statins and how pharma pushes them. Some were even advocating for putting Statins in the public water supply at one point.

                     Some day the public might actually thank these so-called "anti-vaxxers" for standing up to corporate tyranny.

                     Apparently, according to this presenter I refer to, this dates back to Reagan liberalising the pharma industry and letting them conduct their own clinical trials.
                   • Shanreagh …

                     8 December 2022 at 2:11 pm

                     Re the alleged conflict of interest with Reagan.

                     I was also making the point that it was Reagan (allegedly) that introduced legislation to allow pharma to conduct their own clinical trials.

                     The conflict of interest should be clear.

                     Why should this be clear? Did Reagan have shares in the pharmaceutical companies involved?
         • Shanreagh 2.2.1.1.3

           8 December 2022 at 10:24 am

           Not sure that you have it correctly about JVs. There have been cases where the Courts have intervened.

           Some JVs will accept fractionated parts of blood. That may have been blood that was made available.

           https://www.medicalprotection.org/southafrica/casebook/casebook-may-2014/the-challenges-of-treating-jehovah's-witnesses

           https://www.nzblood.co.nz/assets/Transfusion-Medicine/Blood-Issues/Blood-Issues-No-4-Jul-2002.pdf

           https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6513

           https://www.hbtechs.co.nz/files/CPD04_-_Jehovah_s_Witnesses.pdf

           https://www.avant.org.au/news/20151103-court-intervenes-in-non-urgent-situation-for-child-of-jehovahs-witness-parents/

           https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-27/jehovahs-witness-loses-bid-to-refuse-blood/4985476
     • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.2.2

       7 December 2022 at 11:41 pm

       JWs also have their religious views bypassed by courts from time to time, for the benefit of their children.
   • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.3

     7 December 2022 at 11:42 pm

     Rational balancing of risk is the #1 thing antivaxxers aren't that good at, it seems to me.

     i.e.
     ‘Weird, evidence-free theory of possible danger(?) from blood products from vaccinated people, theory refuted by credible experts”

     vs

     “immediate danger of death without surgery, confirmed by all involved”

     Which to choose…??????
     • RedLogix 2.3.1

       8 December 2022 at 12:16 am

       That is not the choice they are making. The parents appear to understand the risk to their child perfectly well – and seem to have made all reasonable efforts to organise an alternative donor source.
       • Nic the NZer 2.3.1.1

         8 December 2022 at 8:27 am

         I doubt they are thinking in terms of risk at all.

         1) The baby already received one transfusion from NZ blood during previous surgery.

         2) It really didn't need to be present in the court for the hearing (against medical advice).
         • RedLogix 2.3.1.1.1

           8 December 2022 at 8:37 am

           I doubt they are thinking in terms of risk at all.

           Having had two children who both required major surgery as infants I can viscerally relate to how they are thinking at the moment.

           If you have ever had to hand over your 18 month old baby daughter to a surgeon to have her eye removed (retina blastoma) you might have some inkling as to the anxiety and grief they are going through.

           Now toss in a gratuitously sadistic High Court proceeding for good measure, not to mention being shat on by armchair authoritarians all over social media – and the answer I come up with is trauma.
           • Ad 2.3.1.1.1.1

             8 December 2022 at 8:58 am

             Most real response I've seen all day.

             Today we also heard of a Maori woman who in the course of a 2 minute phone call was advised that she had Stage 3 cancer, would require fast aggressive surgery, and massively invasive chemo.

             It makes news frankly because the poor management can be couched in unimpeachable Maori values, and so the system sits up and takes notice. Good on her as well for getting the story.

             The fact that the child's surgery came to a court case indicates a massive relationship failure on the part of the health professionals. It is their job to take the intensely vulnerable couple through the procedure and care, not the other way round.
             • RedLogix …

               8 December 2022 at 9:10 am

               Thanks Ad. Typing that very personal comment above stirred up old memories – and I've been here long enough to know when I have said my piece and to leave it at this.
           • Rosemary McDonald 2.3.1.1.1.2

             8 December 2022 at 9:12 am

             Now toss in a gratuitously sadistic High Court proceeding featuring a King's Counsel who manages to conflate parents' valid concerns with racism…

             He suggested if such a request was granted, it opened the door to other requests that were theoretically possible to achieve – such as requesting blood from a specific ethnicity but ethically and clinically bankrupt.

             ”There’s also a slippery slope element to it,” he said. ”We have been there before as a society.”

             https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/donor-blood-battle-crowds-gather-outside-auckland-high-court-ahead-of-hearing/DSTVOUSPWBAF3FLGJAAR7Q6CBI/

             …we have more than trauma.

             Things have got seriously weird. It seems to have escaped the notice of the armchair authoritarians that NZ Blood Service does impose mandatory stand down periods after certain vaccines…up to 28 days…yet none for the new and novel Covid products whose long term effects are unknown.

             https://www.nzblood.co.nz/become-a-donor/am-i-eligible/detailed-eligibility-criteria/?filter=V#Vaccination

             You'd think that they would would be extra cautious wouldn't you?
             • Nic the NZer …

               8 December 2022 at 9:47 am

               NZ Blood Service imposes stand down periods following certain "live virus" vaccines. Those are known to pose a risk as for a period of time those viruses can end up in the blood stream, which could later cause complications for a recipient of blood.

               Were as the implementation of "extra cautious" your proposing would have resulted in highly limited blood collection for a period of months (probably years if Sue Gray gets to say whos blood to collect) and for no particular reason.

               I'm sure unnecessary blood shortages are not something NZ Blood Service considers a reasonable outcome.
               • Shanreagh …

                 8 December 2022 at 10:40 am

                 NZ Blood Service imposes stand down periods following certain "live virus" vaccines.

                 The Covid vaccine is not a live vaccine.
                 • Nic the NZer …

                   8 December 2022 at 10:53 am

                   Yes, that's correct. NZ Blood Service doesn't impose a stand-down period for vaccines in general, just the problematic ones for blood donation.
               • Rosemary McDonald …

                 8 December 2022 at 10:47 am

                 Blood shortages!!!

                 An intelligent medical/public health system could have anticipated this outcome and advised the government that the Pfizer product should be recommended only to those in the known 'at risk' categories for negative outcomes of Covid 19.

                 (Especially since the 'prevention of transmission' promise was…optimistic.)

                 Like the very elderly and those with co- morbidities. Most likely those who are not able to donate blood anyways.

                 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/deaths

                 Leaving the rest of us to catch it and develop long lasting immunity.

                 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35380632/

                 Tragically, it is too late now. Its not as if they can suck the stuff out.

                 Way to go Science!
                 • Nic the NZer …

                   8 December 2022 at 11:05 am

                   Look, I have absolutely no doubt that if some nutter like yourself was put in charge of policy for NZ Blood Service (or other aspect of the NZ health system) you could quite capably run it into the ground within a year or so, causing massive harm and public health disaster. Fortunately for us there is no way that's happening.

                   That leaves this particular policy disaster as merely a product of your imagination, which I hope you will agree is a good thing.
                   • Shanreagh …

                     8 December 2022 at 12:50 pm

                     
       • AB 2.3.1.2

         8 December 2022 at 8:31 am

         The parents appear to understand the risk to their child perfectly well

         No they don't. They have vastly over-estimated the risk of their child receiving donated blood from a Covid vaccine recipient. This risk is near-zero and yet they are ranking it as the highest risk of all. Their risk-assessment has been poisoned by the deliberate politicisation of the pandemic. If they get their wish, it opens the door to unsustainable and unscientific cherry-picking of blood donors by recipients.
         • Tony Veitch 2.3.1.2.1

           8 December 2022 at 9:40 am

           
         • Francesca 2.3.1.2.2

           8 December 2022 at 10:00 am

           Wouldn't have happened if they'd just quietly acceded to the parent's wishes and got on with saving the baby, after all, that is the prime issue, isn't it?

           Who blew it up out of the water by stubbornly refusing a very simple and doable procedure that the parents were happy with
           • Anne 2.3.1.2.2.1

             8 December 2022 at 10:32 am

             Wouldn't have happened if they'd just quietly acceded to the parent's wishes…

             They can't do that because it would have opened up a can of worms and undermined the efficacy of the blood transfusion process which is second to none.

             https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/donor-blood-battle-lawyer-for-the-parents-of-baby-w-announces-no-appeal-in-guardianship-case/NH5DHZRRUFB65I7RWLMSXPTEAA/

             "A lawyer for the blood service, Adam Ross KC, on Wednesday described the request for that order as exceptional and without precedent. Ross said it would jeopardise the integrity of the donor service and open the door to ethically and clinically bankrupt requests regarding donor blood.

             “It is a concern that an order like this can damage and will damage an excellent blood service,” he said."
             • Andy …

               8 December 2022 at 1:58 pm

               "Without precedent", despite NZ Blood having forms for such requests available (now deleted) on their website:

               https://web.archive.org/web/20220129135018/https://www.nzblood.co.nz/assets/Transfusion-Medicine/PDFs/111F066A.pdf

               I don't know if this form was ever used,
         • Rosemary McDonald 2.3.1.2.3

           8 December 2022 at 10:30 am

           This risk is near-zero

           I am sure you have evidence to support this? May we see it?
           • AB 2.3.1.2.3.1

             8 December 2022 at 10:51 am

             It's the absence of evidence to the contrary, bolstered by the consensus of expert medical opinion which is usually our most reliable guide in the face of uncertainty. Medical opinion is not infallible – I am not gullible about these things, having first-hand experience of wrong and (perhaps) deliberately deceptive medical advice. However, we discovered its deceptiveness by consulting other medical opinion, so the general rule of thumb remains a good one. Absolutists who demand impossible certainty usually end up in a deep hole.
             • RedLogix …

               8 December 2022 at 2:22 pm

               Absolutists who demand impossible certainty usually end up in a deep hole.

               Yes – while we are both coming from different angles here, I think we can both agree on this.

               As I get older I find myself listening to people who I know I do not agree with – but finding they have something worth listening to all the same.
     • Graeme 2.3.2

       8 December 2022 at 7:23 am

       There's also a whole lot of other evidence based items / products that go into the patient's body during surgery other than blood products.

       The actual risk from many of those is many times greater than than the actual demonstrated risk of mrna vaccines, let alone blood from someone vaccinated 12 months ago. Not to mention the probabilities of probably hundreds of potential adverse outcomes from the procedure the we mite is about to undergo to hopefully save and extent it's life.

       How the hell do we turn this mass hysteria around.
       • RedLogix 2.3.2.1

         8 December 2022 at 8:30 am

         If anyone gave more fucks for the wee mites life than protecting the 'safe and effective' vaccine narrative – the medics involved would have quietly accepted the parents donor offer and gotten the job done by now.
         • Incognito 2.3.2.1.1

           8 December 2022 at 8:45 am

           You’ve got your narratives all wrong.
           • RedLogix 2.3.2.1.1.1

             8 December 2022 at 8:50 am

             I am the one dealing with a serious, life threatening autoimmune condition – triggered by the vaccines. I don't demand anyone share my perspective, but equally I am not going to be lectured to by authoritarian ideologues who are motivated primarily to protect a political narrative.
             • Andy …

               8 December 2022 at 8:58 am

               @Redlogix I'm very sorry to hear of your condition and I wish you well for the future.

               I agree with you here. The government could have de-escalated this early on by agreeing to the parents demands early on, flew under the radar and got it all hushed up.

               Instead the authorities have opened up the wounds from 12 months ago and got the people all riled up.

               The mother (interviewed by Alex Jones, no less) stated that she is a midwife that was marched off her job because of the mandates, and that she is currently unable to leave the hospital ward with her baby.

               I can't see this ending well
               • Shanreagh …

                 8 December 2022 at 10:31 am

                 Why would the authoritie have agreed to something like this had huge risks for the supply of blood for the future.

                 I actually don't think that it is up to parents to impose their will on a person who is too young to make their own decisions. The parents should be making a separate decision, based on different facts for their child not blindly following their own views. These may be fine for an adult to rationalise but another person…….no. Children are not 'owned' by their parents.

                 We have discussed this before
                 .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-12-2022/#comment-1924279

                 ” It is one thing to have these beliefs as an adult with only one adult, you, to look after but once you have another person who is totally reliant on you and no voice of their own it is quite another thing. The ethical questions need framing differently.

                 The fact that she is a health professional makes it even more concerning. Is she also a follower of Andrew Wakefield and will the baby be vaccinated against measles/mumps/rubella?”
               • AB …

                 8 December 2022 at 11:08 am

                 If someone of Maori descent turns up and demands no blood from Pakeha donors, will you support them too Andy? Should this be quietly resolved and their wishes accommodated? What if a gay person demands no blood from straight donors, or an anti-5G activist demands no blood from people living near cellphone towers, a Labour voter demands no blood from Nat voters? Should we let a thousand forms of such nuttiness bloom – will you pay more tax to fund the army of loathed 'bureaucrats' making it all work?

                 Now sure – that's a slippery slope argument and nobody has actually done those things yet. But big, critical systems can't open themselves up to precedents that might compromise their operability.
                 • Andy …

                   8 December 2022 at 3:44 pm

                   In response to your concerns, NZ Blood did have a procedure whereby you could fill in a form and apply for Directed Blood Donation

                   (i.e a specific person/persons for the donation)

                   I provided a link from Web Archive in this comment

                   .https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-07-12-2022/#comment-1925050

                   I should also add that the archive also has a page that discourages this.

                   I have no idea why the page was deleted from NZ Blood. perhaps cost cutting.

                   Presumably there is cost and time associated with screening blood, but I have blood tests every 6 months or so as a regular health check, so it can't be that hard or require a huge infrastructure to support it.
                   • Incognito …

                     8 December 2022 at 4:38 pm

                     Please stop with your uninformed comments as they only seed discord and confusion.

                     Running lab diagnostics on small blood samples is quite different from the involved (read: expensive) manufacturing processes of blood and blood products from pooled blood donors, which includes extensive testing and storage.

                     Directed donation was not recommended in international expert consensus guidelines and most national blood providers, including the UK, Australia and Canada, did not support them, she said.

                     https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/480359/donor-blood-why-directly-donated-blood-was-deemed-unsafe-for-baby-needing-heart-surgery
               • joe90 …

                 8 December 2022 at 11:24 am

                 by Alex Jones, no less

                 Yup, rational AF.

                 https://twitter.com/Te_Taipo/status/1600581191362498560
                 • Shanreagh …

                   8 December 2022 at 12:59 pm

                   The couple with the guy speaking must be some of the most unhealthy pale looking people I have seen for a while. Are they ill?
                   • joe90 …

                     8 December 2022 at 1:11 pm

                     Are they ill?

                     They certainly look like they've been in a very dark rabbit hole for quite some time.
                   • Shanreagh …

                     8 December 2022 at 1:11 pm

                     Those are the parents. Good grief they both look like they need a course of YIM, my mother's oft used go to for 'peaky' children.
                   • Andy …

                     8 December 2022 at 2:06 pm

                     "The couple with the guy"

                     You mean Baby W's parents talking with Alex Jones?
                   • Shanreagh …

                     8 December 2022 at 3:08 pm

                     Yes, very poorly looking. Yes Andy I now find these are the baby's parents.
                   • swordfish …

                     8 December 2022 at 4:25 pm

                     .
                     @Shanreagh

                     (In reply to your reply to me below)

                     just being able watch.

                     That sentence means remarkably little to me, I'm afraid.

                     Normally I'd respond to your key point but I remember … not all that long ago … two very reasonable women on this site politely took issue with a line of argument you were pursuing … and, it seems, you were left in shock, felt violated & invalidated … in fact you went as far as suggesting you'd been personally 'Colonised' by these two very respectful (indeed remarkably restrained) women & there was some implication that you felt you'd metaphorically been kidnapped, thrown onto a sailing ship & then subsequently sold into white slavery among 17th century Moroccan Sultans on the Barbary Coast.

                     I wouldn't want to put you through that sort of Emotional Genocide all over again by taking issue with something you’ve said.

                     It’s clearly a tragic life of eternal Martyrdom for affluent Woke [… deleted]

                     [lprent: If you’d like me to make some comments about your parents, who I don’t know, then please carry on the the way of that last paragraph. I suspect you didn’t know Shanreagh’s parents any more than I know yours. But I suspect that your parents would have something to say about raising an arsehole who’d sneer at someone you don’t know, about something you have no idea about. Apparently because you have a some (probably pommy) weird class presumptions about boarding schools in NZ. ]
                   • Andy …

                     8 December 2022 at 4:50 pm

                     They might look unwell for a number of reasons

                     (a) they are parents of young twins

                     (b) one of the twins has a serous heart condition

                     (c) they claim to be locked in the hospital (unlikely but they won't leave their baby)

                     (d) there are undergoing a court case

                     (e) there is intense media scrutiny

                     It might also be the lighting in the hospital room.

                     So whatever you think of this couple, they have reasonable grounds to look unhealthy.
                   • Incognito []

                     8 December 2022 at 6:46 pm

                     It could be the infamous hospital food 😉
                 • swordfish …

                   8 December 2022 at 2:30 pm

                   .

                   Spare me the moral lecturing from a wannabe terrorist like Kemara. Dubious AF.
                   • Shanreagh …

                     8 December 2022 at 3:06 pm

                     He's not supporting these crazies. His coverage of the protest at parliament was very informative, just being able watch.
                   • Shanreagh …

                     8 December 2022 at 11:23 pm

                     The coverage of the protest by Te Taipo went most days and the ability to see action, 'just be able to watch' as I put it, as it happened with minimal 'interpretation' was valuable. But I guess that such is your long standing (personal?) animus for the guy that anything valid and valuable like this is not valid and valuable in your eyes.

                     My comment was very mild and not deserving of a response such as yours.
             • Ad …

               8 December 2022 at 9:07 am

               Yes and respect.

               You are and have been for many years one of the most thoughtful and principled commentators we have had here.

               I've noticed you do less of the long form responses and of course no posts, but still continue anyway.

               You carry a lot of grief, but still have a lot of dignity anyway.

               I sincerely hope you get to wind back from full time work as soon as you can so you can focus on taking care of yourself and t hose immediately around you.

               Our family are in the similar position of providing massively for an older relative and doing it for years.

               You are a good person and you have my full support.
               • Shanreagh …

                 8 December 2022 at 11:15 pm

                 @Swordfish

                 Can you please stop the ad hominems.

                 I am not sure what the paragraph below is all about. I have only ever said I went to boarding school. You know nothing about my personal financial circumstances, I always get confused with your rendering of woke, My dad never lived in the UK to vote Tory and the tax reference is head scratching.

                 These flights of fantasy of yours that seem for some reason to have me in their sights are uncalled for.

                 It’s clearly a tragic life of eternal Martyrdom for affluent Woke ex-boarding school girls who’s fathers voted Tory because they had to put tax concessions first.
                 • Shanreagh …

                   11 December 2022 at 10:43 am

                   @Swordfish

                   I am sill awaiting your response on this posting, preferably you have thought better of these ad hominem attacks on me. Could you please confirm. You said, when this was raised earlier, that you had looked at your posts and some were troll-like.

                   I do not know what I have done to cause this personal invective, apart from existing. Could you please let me know. I post views.

                   It is as if you have some personal animus against me and/or my family. As my father died in 1993 and my mother in 2010 is is longstanding. I cannot conceive of either of them doing anything to cause this. I have always been respectful of you and your views.
             • Anker …

               8 December 2022 at 9:27 am

               Sorry to hear that RL.

               That is bloody awlful. I hope you are doing o.k.

               Really value your contribution on the Standard, particularly your expertise when it comes to discussing Three Waters
               • RedLogix …

                 8 December 2022 at 9:40 am

                 Thanks. None of us are getting younger and I am not alone here at TS in dealing with the challenges that tend to come along with it.

                 Although this is a condition I will likely have to manage the rest of my life, thanks to working with an excellent Functional Medicine specialist here in Australia (all via telehealth) things have stabilised for the time being.

                 I have a good science education, worked in heavy industry technical roles all my life, and have defended the scientific method here many, many times from those who would undermine or misrepresent it. Yet at the same time I would counsel others to be aware that such a powerful tool is also prey to being misused – and that it is a mistake to imagine that everything science tells us must always be correct or complete.

                 Especially not in medicine.
             • Francesca …

               8 December 2022 at 9:42 am

               All the best to you Red, one of the least ideologically captured writers here, always with a fair and open mind

               I wish the best of outcomes for you
             • Patricia Bremner …

               8 December 2022 at 11:37 am

               That is very sad Red and bad luck. I also had a reaction severe enough to need a hospital admission for my second different vaccine. To protect many, some of us have lasting damage. Mine breathlessness after myocardia, but your auto immune reaction would be far more serious and dangerous. Kind regards for good control, and I must add the Aussie health system does great work. Perhaps we need Medicare, though the tech bungle has been awful.
             • swordfish …

               8 December 2022 at 2:25 pm

               .

               but equally I am not going to be lectured to by authoritarian ideologues who are motivated primarily to protect a political narrative.

               Spot on.
               • Shanreagh …

                 8 December 2022 at 11:39 pm

                 Hard to know, SF what it refers to though. When I first read it it seemed an overreaction to the discussion and rereading I still don't understand it.

                 The ideologues in this case are the Gunns and Greys and the family of Baby W of this world. Most of the rest of us are agog/angry/sick at the lengths that a family would put the youngest and most sick person in their family through to make a point.

                 One of the Drs involved said that Baby W could have had the op by now. We find now that he has already had a blood transfusion with the so-called concerning blood.

                 I really hope that the baby will not be affected by the delay or the jaunts to the court.

                 Personally I find the actions of the parents not brave or thoughtful but unspeakably cruel and deluded. The child is not their property to be used to further their own views or those of Gunn/Grey.

                 Grey/Gunn who are the ones to be concerned about, not fellow posters, whatever their views, on TS.
             • Incognito …

               8 December 2022 at 6:27 pm

               “Nobody knows the risk of a little delay in the heart surgery as against the risk of providing blood which the parties now all agree may contain some residual traces of mRNA from the vaccine… or the spike protein or the other factors that we know… can cause myocarditis and death,” she [Sue Grey] said.

               https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/12/06/decision-in-baby-blood-guardianship-case-reserved/

               This is the counter-narrative that makes one’s blood boil [pun intended], that somehow blood and blood products provided through NZBS are unsafe. This is plain fearmongering and a NZ Court ruled it was unfounded and baseless, as it was not supported by medical/scientific evidence.
               • mauī …

                 9 December 2022 at 7:29 pm

                 I'm not sure why it would make your blood boil.. There are still many questions surrounding how blood is affected by the vaccine, the science is not hard to track down. There's every reason for caution, and every reason to investigate what is happening in blood.

                 As they say the "truth" doesn't mind being questioned. However there's little of that occurring within the NZBS or Starship.
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   9 December 2022 at 7:40 pm

                   There are questions surrounding everything. Should we call a halt on every level while we sort this stuff out?

                   No.
                   • RedLogix …

                     9 December 2022 at 8:17 pm

                     I guess the answer depends on whether anyone is willing to take responsibility some years down the track if it turns out there is a problem.

                     It isn't as if Big Pharma has not had a history of disasters, litigation and fines – often decades after the product was first released.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     9 December 2022 at 8:30 pm

                     "Big Pharma has not had a history of disasters, litigation and fines "

                     Yes, they have. Also, they have a history of marvellous success and the saving of lives uncounted, as I'm sure you, Red Logix, as a promoter of the technological, will attest.

                     Your truculence around the situation of the heart-baby and her flakey-as-fek parents is..incongruous with your previously elegantly-explained position, imo.
   • gsays 2.4

     8 December 2022 at 9:13 am

     The other question I have is how come we are talking about this?

     By that, which party put this is the open?

     Is it any of yours or my business?
     • Anker 2.4.1

       8 December 2022 at 9:31 am

       gsays that is a reasonable question.

       I particularly wondered how the media got hold of information that the parents took an anti vaxer, who spouted consiracy theories at the medics.
       • Andy 2.4.1.1

         8 December 2022 at 11:41 am

         I read on Stuff yesterday that "cell phones emitting radiation" is a conspiracy theory.

         I'm wondering how two way radio communication works, but I don't like to ask too many questions .

         [Given your history of spreading mis- and dis-information on this forum I have to ask you to provide a link to Stuff and explain the context of your selective quoting and the relevance to this discussion thread. You are in Pre-Moderation until I have seen a satisfactory response from you – Incognito]
         • Shanreagh 2.4.1.1.1

           8 December 2022 at 1:04 pm

           I think you can help yourself re radiation by wearing a tinfoil hat as they did at the protest where the rebar in the concrete blocks was emitting radiation.

           As far as two way radio communication is concerned if you get out of the way of direct rays emitted by people speaking on phones to other people you will be OK.

           Going along Lambton Quay at lunchtime while others are walking along having catch-ups on their phones may be problematic with all the ducking and diving but I am sure it can be avoided by staggering your lunch hour to 4.00pm or similar. Or staggering the lunch hour PLUS wearing a tinfoil hat might solve the problem?

           
           • Andy 2.4.1.1.1.1

             8 December 2022 at 1:14 pm

             Here's a great "conspiracy theory" for you

             https://web.archive.org/web/20220129135018/https://www.nzblood.co.nz/assets/Transfusion-Medicine/PDFs/111F066A.pdf

             It's the NZ Blood request form for Directed Donation (what the parents are requesting)

             Now deleted from the NZ Blood website, archived on Wayback.

             My tin foil is just fine, I always wear it except in the shower
             • Francesca …

               8 December 2022 at 1:47 pm

               One would have to wonder why it's been removed
             • Shanreagh …

               8 December 2022 at 2:06 pm

               So if you don't wear the tinfoil hat in the shower how can you keep the fluoride molecules from sliding down your hair and into your skull that way? What happens if they get stuck in your skull and don't make it to your teeth?

               Asking for a friend!
           • Belladonna 2.4.1.1.1.2

             8 December 2022 at 6:33 pm

             If you visit several bars along the way, staggering will be no problem. In fact you may achieve syncopation (uneven movement from bar to bar)

             [Yes. Musical joke. Yes. Not serious. Yes. Not recommending drinking to excess.]
             • Shanreagh …

               8 December 2022 at 11:44 pm

               

               Thank you Belladonna!

               Syncopated rhythm down Lambton Quay, no matter how it comes about would be quite concerning to the lunchtime walkers carefully moving so as not to be in anyone's space.
         • Incognito 2.4.1.1.2

           8 December 2022 at 2:05 pm

           Mod note
           • Andy 2.4.1.1.2.1

             8 December 2022 at 2:57 pm

             I've provided separate replies with links for yourself and Weka, I hope that helps
         • Andy 2.4.1.1.3

           8 December 2022 at 2:12 pm

           Here is the quote I was referring to

           The sovereign citizen phenomenon has different factions, but its followers generally believe they can pick and choose which laws apply to them. This only seemed to get her in trouble in early 2021, when Rayner, who believed the unfounded conspiracy theories that cellphones emitted radiation and 5G towers were “death towers”, refused to display a QR code at her cafe for Covid-19 contact tracing

           https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/better-business/130672251/fivestar-coffee-one-day-behind-bars-the-next-whys-this-cafe-owner-in-jail

           EDIT – the relevance to the thread is that the media’s definition of “conspiracy theories” seems pretty ill-defined.
           Like, actual facts are now “conspiracy theories”

           [Thank you for the link and the context, which makes things a lot clearer and much less ambiguous than your lazy comment.

           This thread is not about the media’s definition of “conspiracy theories”, pharma, statins, or cell phone emissions. Your comments amount to diversion trolling – Like, actual facts are now “conspiracy theories” – which is disrupting the discussion of the topic started by weka @ 2. If you want to start a new topic, then do so and see how far you get and how long you’ll last. This is your warning, and you stay in Pre-Mod for now to make sure that you’ve understood this – Incognito]
           • Incognito 2.4.1.1.3.1

             8 December 2022 at 3:01 pm

             Mod note
     • Shanreagh 2.4.2

       8 December 2022 at 10:51 am

       This is a case of intense and singular public interest as it is a challenge to the ethos that the NZ Blood Transfusion Service works under. It is this that keeps all of us safe should we need blood transfusions as donations are able to be sourced according to demand, in relatively short time frames etc.

       I totally support it being out in the open (subject to the not naming of the child/parents).
     • weka 2.4.3

       8 December 2022 at 2:35 pm

       The other question I have is how come we are talking about this?

       By that, which party put this is the open?

       Is it any of yours or my business?

       That shouldn't be too hard to look up, but almost certainly it's the parents that went to the media.

       There are reasonably high public interest reasons for us to be discussing the issue in public.
       • gsays 2.4.3.1

         10 December 2022 at 1:20 pm

         As it turns out, it is representatives of the judiciary that are keeping things front and centre.

         "In a statement last night, Justice Gault said he had been informed by the lawyer acting for Te Whatu Ora that the baby's parents had prevented doctors from taking blood tests, performing a chest X-ray and an anaesthetic assessment."

         https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/480419/blood-donor-case-baby-s-surgery-takes-place-at-starship
         • Incognito 2.4.3.1.1

           10 December 2022 at 1:38 pm

           Yes, nasty judiciary, organising confrontations at the hospital and leaking videos of that to anti-vaxxer websites. \sarc

           https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/12/lawyer-sue-grey-says-sick-baby-doing-well-after-surgery-as-video-shows-confrontation-between-police-and-family.html [NB this is not RNZ doing the ‘dirty work’ aka reporting]
         • weka 2.4.3.1.2

           10 December 2022 at 2:38 pm

           what's the problem? As I said, this case has a fairly level of public interest. By which I don't mean gossip, I mean the case matters in the public interest. What would be the reason for not talking about it?
   • Shanreagh 2.5

     8 December 2022 at 10:11 am

     The baby has already had one transfusion with so-called 'bad' blood.

     My concern is with the future and these parents. With their child now possibly getting another transfusion and that even though there is thorough screening will these parents treat their child differently ie because of their belief that the blood is unclean and that therefore that he is unclean of something?

     I would hate for this to happen but we have stories of parents who treat children badly as they believe they have bad spirits or are evil.

     The child has already had their surgery delayed.
     • Nic the NZer 2.5.1

       8 December 2022 at 10:16 am

       They should definitely keep the child away from baby lambs and other household pets until its fully recovered.
       • Shanreagh 2.5.1.1

         8 December 2022 at 2:02 pm

         I was always advised that babies should not be going out and about until after they had had the first vaccines on the immunisation schcdule.

         This baby has been trotted around to the court etc. I would not think the courthouse with the many different types of people and differing health status would have been a good place for a sick baby to be.
         • Belladonna 2.5.1.1.1

           8 December 2022 at 6:38 pm

           Mmmm. I see lots of very young babies at crowded venues with lots of potentially infectious people around them. And, last week saw a baby/toddler with a nasal gastric tube (so presumably with a significant medical issue) at a local food court.

           I think that different people have different perceptions of risk. Much like the co-sleeping debate….
3. Roy Cartland 3

   7 December 2022 at 6:33 pm

   Reply to 1.

   Why can't it just be another category? "Other" or"prefer not to say", like on a census form? Everyone's happy.

   (ps, I know how the reply button works, thanks; but on a mobile, the comment area won't let me input text for some reason.)
   • bwaghorn 3.1

     7 December 2022 at 6:55 pm

     Have you switched from desktop to mobile?
     • weka 3.1.1

       7 December 2022 at 7:21 pm

       the problem there is that you can't see the Reply list, so you have to keep swapping back and forth.
       • bwaghorn 3.1.1.1

         7 December 2022 at 7:34 pm

         I know been doing it since for ages
   • Gosman 3.2

     8 December 2022 at 1:24 am

     What is the point of having separate competitions in most sports based on gender/sex definitions?
   • Nic the NZer 3.3

     8 December 2022 at 8:17 am

     Because in most codes the entrants in that category wouldn't even make up a team per region, let alone a competition.
4. gsays 4

   7 December 2022 at 7:02 pm

   Minister Megan Woods, chickens and roosting.

   Despite the Minister being in favour of supporting the refinery by underwriting a deal to keep it going for 5-10 years, "But it is understood Woods’ idea for those negotiations was not ultimately endorsed by fellow ministers."

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/126866243/government-decided-not-to-follow-through-on-idea-of-talks-to-save-refinery

   In an RNZ interview, she accepted the advice of 'advisors' so job done. Refinery closed.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018833819/energy-minister-megan-woods-on-nz-s-fuel-security

   A refinery, by the way, that we used to own, till the 4th Labour Government sold it off.

   Who are these advisors? Is there a consequence for their shit advice?
   • SPC 4.1

     7 December 2022 at 7:26 pm

     Given the dismantling of the refinery over the past 6 months …

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/480260/airlines-told-to-conserve-fuel-after-contamination-in-shipment
   • Peter 4.2

     7 December 2022 at 8:29 pm

     Was the 4th Labour Government the one with Douglas and Prebble in it? So I expect we'll see a Herald column from Prebble rubbishing the closure of Marsden Point and blaming the Government for it.

     And no doubt their Act mates will be on about how the Government should have done this and done that.
     • gsays 4.2.1

       7 December 2022 at 8:38 pm

       I care less about those pollies we could name.

       I wanna see some mandarins get squeezed.
       • Shanreagh 4.2.1.1

         8 December 2022 at 9:43 am

         Really those 'mandarins' who carry out Govt Policy? Those ones?

         Those 'mandarins who work with legislation that does not give discretion? Those ones?

         Why would we want to change our Westminister style of govt so you could take a pot shot at someone doing their job?

         You have the wrong targets in your sights.
         • gsays 4.2.1.1.1

           8 December 2022 at 10:20 am

           That’s my point, these folk are far from sight.
           In this example they are not following Govt. Policy, they are advising the minister. Advising her to lessen our resilience and independence.
           • Shanreagh 4.2.1.1.1.1

             8 December 2022 at 10:46 am

             Advice is one thing and good PS always give a range of options, but decision making by a Minister is another process.

             It is a complete 'no-no' for single option advice to go up to a Minister.

             It is different if the Minister is acting under explicit legislation, here to give advice outside of what is contemplated by the legislation is a 'no-no'

             '
5. arkie 5

   7 December 2022 at 7:08 pm

   Julie Anne Genter lays out the inequities of our current economic system and highlights some policy alternatives:
   • weka 5.1

     7 December 2022 at 8:11 pm

     what's the explanation for increasing production lowering inflation?
     • arkie 5.1.1

       7 December 2022 at 8:56 pm

       Supply better meets demand:

       Why does productivity matter for inflation? When a workforce is more productive it produces more goods and services, and at a lower cost per unit. This means there is a greater supply of these things, which puts downward pressure on prices and is therefore associated with lower inflation.

       https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/06/inflation-there-s-a-vital-way-to-reduce-it-that-everyone-overlooks-raise-productivity
6. SPC 6

   7 December 2022 at 7:48 pm

   The 2020 Abrahamic Accords – restoring relations between the governments of the nations Morocco, UAE and Bahrain and Israel and a reality check at the World Cup with the people of ME.

   Recent polling shows that ordinary citizens in many Arab countries, including those that participated in the Abraham Accords, disapprove of formalizing ties with Israel.

   “There is clearly not much love in the Arab world for Israel,” wrote the CEO of Gulf State Analytics, a Washington-based risk consultancy that focuses on the region. “The decades of humiliation, resentment, and anger which many Arabs feel toward Israel cannot simply vanish with the signing of such normalization agreements.”

   The present

   For years, most Arab governments conditioned normalization with Israel on the advent of a separate Palestinian state. But the process to create that state has effectively collapsed, while Israel’s new far-right government contains numerous politicians who oppose any scenarios in which Palestinian statehood could ever be viable.

   The Israeli perspective

   That’s a view recognized by some in Israel. “After the Abraham Accords were signed with several Arab countries in 2020, rightist pundits claimed that the Palestinians’ fate no longer interests other Arabs,” wrote Uzi Baram in left-leaning Israeli newspaper Haaretz. “They didn’t bother to read the article in the agreement stating that their fulfillment requires establishing a Palestinian state.”

   The Arab

   “Ordinary Arabs are against this occupation and see it as inhuman and unacceptable,” said Mahjoob Zweiri, a professor of history and contemporary politics at Qatar University.

   Zweiri said the political tenor of the tournament in Qatar has offered a clear message not just to the United States and Israel, but to Arab governments that also seem intent on obscuring the political priorities of Palestinians. The presence of Palestinian flags at stadiums was “not organized by states, but something genuine from within the people themselves,” he said.

   https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/12/06/world-cup-arab-world-rallies-palestinian-cause/

   It was sort of inevitable since the recent restoration of Netanyahu to power in the most right wing government in their nations history, ending the brief period of coalition governance including an Arab party for the first time. In some ways, it's a bit like the let diplomatic down after the failure of the 2000 peace talks (followed by Israeli disengagement and Palestinian intifada).
7. SPC 7

   7 December 2022 at 8:34 pm

   Taiwan based TMS is tripling its planned investment in Arizona to $60B (chip production).

   https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63883047
8. gsays 8

   7 December 2022 at 8:41 pm

   Now that I am 3 home bruise deep, this is jolly entertaining.
9. joe90 9

   7 December 2022 at 8:43 pm

   DPR separatist Igor Strelkov (Girkin), sentenced to life in prison by the ICC for the downing of MH17 and the deaths of all 298 passengers and crew, went to Moscow.

   .

   Strelkov Igor Ivanovich I am in Moscow. Attempt No. 3 to take a direct part in the hostilities against the armed forces of respected Kyiv partners (they are now referred to in the reports of the Ministry of Defense as some kind of "militants") did not end in success, although it was very close to that. Briefly, without details:

   […]

   https://t.me/strelkovii/3492

   google translate

   […]

   https://t.me/strelkovii/3493

   google translate

   Strelkov Igor Ivanovich

   And now also briefly on the impressions of the trip, which was fruitless, but not without benefit (since my eyes and ears remained with me, and my head is also still working).

   Naturally, I intend to keep the vast majority of my impressions and conclusions to myself. In order, so to speak, "not to discredit". Positive impressions – I will share in the upcoming (hopefully) video conferences. But there are not too many of them – in relation to the negative ones.

   And now I will only note that the basis of all our "increasing victories" on the fronts and directions of the NMD is the deepest crisis of strategic planning. Simply put, the troops are fighting "by inertia", not having the slightest idea of the ultimate strategic goals of the current military campaign and only guessing about the vague plans of the command for such grandiose senseless gestures as the construction of a completely insane in uselessness (but wildly expensive in terms of execution cost) Surovikin Lines.

   In most parts of the RF Armed Forces, soldiers and officers do not understand: for what, for what and for what purposes they are fighting in general. For them, a mystery – what is the condition for victory or just a condition for ending the war? And the authorities of the Russian Federation are not able to explain this to them, since setting a clear goal for the NWO means "limiting room for maneuver" – that is, losing the opportunity to declare the goals of the NWO as achieved at any moment that the Kremlin leaders consider convenient. (For the thousand and first time, I remind you that the passionately desired “reconciliation with partners,” for which many steps are being taken to this day that demoralize society and the army, is unattainable in principle, but the Kremlin and Staraya Square do not want to believe in it).

   Such sentiments specifically in the troops lead to apathy. Apathy, on the other hand, leads to a drop in morale and the fulfillment of the tasks set "for show" and "slip of the sleeves", without a real interest in their successful result. So – in the army of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (and parts of the Armed Forces of the LDNR, although there the fighters have much more motivation) apathy prevails.

   The absence of a clear military-political strategy does not allow the military to develop tactics that will contribute to its implementation. In the meantime – "on a whim" – the RF Armed Forces are preparing for a protracted positional war, building long-term structures along the entire front in the style of "a la the Mannerheim Line" (does not pull on the "Maginot Line"). The fact that following the strategy of a protracted war is suicide for the Russian Federation (and its authorities and elites, too, by the way) – I wrote back in 2014, but I said (more than once or twice) – from the very beginning of the current campaign.

   Therefore, watching how the enemy slowly (and without encountering any opposition) implements his own strategic tasks with the complete passivity of the military and political authorities of the Russian Federation, I do not expect anything good at the front in the coming weeks.

   And, yes, – the so-called. "Ukraine" will NOT freeze in winter, will NOT rebel and will NOT fight worse. Vice versa. Its soldiers, who have already believed in their strength as a result of the autumn victories of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and are fully supported by NATO, will only fight harder and harder against the "Muscovites", avenging the hardships that their relatives and friends in the rear are forced to bear. And they will be met only by apathetic performance of duty, behind which many fighters and commanders have long been looming the unresolved question: "What are we doing here, if Moscow is most concerned with the implementation of" grain deals ", the unhindered pumping of ammonia through Odessa and the" price ceiling " on gas and oil supplied to numerous Western partners?

   https://t.me/strelkovii/3495

   google translate
   • Sanctuary 9.1

     8 December 2022 at 9:39 am

     Under reported story here

     The United States is gearing up for a long war in the Ukraine. If the Russians think they can outlast the west in a war of logistics, well they are in for a rude shock.
     • joe90 9.1.1

       8 December 2022 at 10:52 am

       Russia couldn't spot the giant 40 year old drone that struck one of its three most heavily defended air bases while Ukraine intercepts >80% of Russia's most up to date cruise missiles.

       Second best military!

       https://twitter.com/BBCSteveR/status/1600014676007342080
10. Blazer 10

    8 December 2022 at 9:06 pm

    Today is the 8th of December 2022….WTF!

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