Daily Review 12/03/2018

Written By: - Date published: 5:30 pm, March 12th, 2018 - 93 comments
Categories: Daily review - Tags:

Daily review is also your post.

This provides Standardistas the opportunity to review events of the day.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Don’t forget to be kind to each other …

93 comments on “Daily Review 12/03/2018”

  1. Ed 1

    There are more and more signs a crash is coming.
    And China’s problems may be at the heart of it.
    Anyone wonder why a former grip has been taken of the leadership as the country slides to becoming a one man dictatorship.

    Mist people cannot see the iceberg.
    The boat is steaming full steam ahead.
    And there are not enough lifeboats.

    We learn from history that we do not learn from history.

    “China’s Coming Financial Meltdown

    Anbang Insurance Group is one of China’s largest and most aggressive financial institutions. It is known for its huge customer base, high leverage, and fast-paced deal making.
    At least it was until the Friday before last.
    That’s when Anbang was taken over by the Communist Chinese government. You can call that takeover, “a bailout with Chinese characteristics.”

    https://dailyreckoning.com/chinas-coming-financial-meltdown/

  2. james 2

    It seems there is a bit to the story of the alleged sexual assaults at the young labour camp.

    Jacinda hasn’t done her investigation as yet – but Andrew Kirton who has known about this for some time has confirmed that there was “highly inappropriate behaviour” and that he was disappointed that “an incident like this happened”.

    Why hasnt this been passed to the police? (Andrew Kirton – would not confirm that it had been).

    Statement from the Labour Party’s General Secretary Andrew Kirton (http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/03/allegations-of-sexual-assaults-at-young-labour-camp.html)

    “The Labour Party is extremely disappointed that young people attending the Young Labour camp were exposed to highly inappropriate behaviour by an individual who was also at the event.

    Young Labour has apologised to the young people involved.

    We are extremely disappointed that an incident like this happened at a Labour event and we are working to make sure those involved receive any support they need. We are deeply sorry for the distress that’s been caused. It shouldn’t have happened.”

    (more at link..)

    Its fantastic that they are owning up and apologising – but really? is a “sorry” enough for a sexual assault on multiple 16yo kids?

    • Ed 2.1

      Ah, so despite your earlier comments,you are politicising this.
      I really don’t understand how you avoid getting banned from this site.

      Racism yesterday and now using alleged sexual abuse for political gain. You exploit human misery.

      Words fail to convey my contempt.

      • Tuppence Shrewsbury 2.1.1

        So you are all for protecting the abusers by allowing this type of behaviour to lie in the shadows and be covered up? Shame on you for trying to shut down the conversation by framing any effort to be critical of the process political.

        It’s behaviour like that that allowed saville to flourish at the bbc.

        [You are right on the edge. Nothing Ed has said deserves this sort of spin. Wind it back – MS]

        • Ed 2.1.1.1

          Read my 2 comment on Open Mike.
          I said that the police should investigate and James agreed with me.
          Read my comments you nasty troll.

          I despise you for the smear you have made against me.
          You should be banned for such a statement

          I got 3 days for debating Syria.
          Your comment about Saville deserves more.

        • Tuppence Shrewsbury 2.1.1.2

          All right.

          I do disagree with ed bandying round ban talk because he disagrees with James base position

      • Muttonbird 2.1.2

        James has been banned plenty of times.

      • Gabby 2.1.3

        Everything’s political eddy.

    • Carolyn_Nth 2.2

      Kirton just said on Checkpoint just now they were following a victim led process. The victim needed to be comfortable with it being reported to the police before that step is taken.

      • james 2.2.1

        Now this is a hard one – and Im trying to be very careful in my reply as not to upset or anger anyone on here – its a serious question.

        If you are aware of multiple sexual assaults should a person not have the responsibility to report that to the police (and then the victim/s) could have the opportunity to press charges or not?

        If say someone was aware of the roastbusters – and said to the victims ‘you want to go to the police?’ – and then just did nothing if they didn’t?

        Could an organisation not put pressure on a young person NOT to go to the police because (whatever)??? and if they do so – is this not enabling the attacker to carry on with the behaviour. (not saying that this is the case – but in general)

        Upshot – I really think that it should be with the police – not the party and the police and the victims should decide what to do.

        • Carolyn_Nth 2.2.1.1

          Well, I’ll wait and see how things pan out. It’s possible the victims have been provided with support by the Labour party, and that they are working towards them being comfortable with notifying police.

          Police told Checkpoint that would encourage anyone with info who wishes to discuss it with them to go to them.

          But, I don’t have a great deal of faith in the police given how they handled allegations from RoastBuster survivors.

        • Bearded Git 2.2.1.2

          Agreed James-clearly a police matter if the allegations are true.

          It would be the same if, for instance, an MP had been assaulting his wife.

          • james 2.2.1.2.1

            Andrew Kirton just said that he understands that the reporting is pretty accurate to what happened (words to that effect)

            edit: agree with you on the assault thing – this is NEVER the type of thing that should be handled internally.

          • rightly or wrongly 2.2.1.2.2

            My question is, if this happened last month and Ardern has only just found out whats up with party communication?

            Surely they have some form of ‘no surprises’ policy?

            Also what was Labour thinking supplying copious amounts of alcohol to underage teenagers?

            Were the organizers deluded that nothing bad would happen or weren’t aware that they were potentially breaking the law?

            Duh.

            The left were pretty fast at condemning Key’s penchant for pony tails; time to clean your own house I suggest.

            • james 2.2.1.2.2.1

              “Also what was Labour thinking supplying copious amounts of alcohol to underage teenagers?”

              it looks like people took their own along – not supplied by young labour.

              But seems supervision wasnt either.

          • Keepcalmcarryon 2.2.1.2.3

            I’ve had the misfortune of working in a place where an employee alleged (to many although not the perpetrator) sexual harassment from the boss. Inquiries were made from their psychiatrist and the police.
            Result: nothing happens without complainant pushing charges (they didn’t).
            I’m not sure the same applies here but it may very well. I understand the Labour Party would stand behind the alleged victims if they chose to push charges which would be fitting IMO.

          • Draco T Bastard 2.2.1.2.4

            Well, the allegations seem to have been true about the Roastbusters but the police ignored them. They even had outright complaints.

        • BM 2.2.1.3

          Upshot – I really think that it should be with the police – not the party and the police and the victims should decide what to do.

          Of course, it should, the whole thing pongs of a coverup, seriously these sexual assaults happened over a month ago and the police hadn’t been informed.

          • james 2.2.1.3.1

            nor the parents it turns out.

            • BM 2.2.1.3.1.1

              That’s utterly disgraceful.
              For their parents not to know there must have been pressure applied to these young people to not say anything.

              Heads need to roll.

              • adam

                Can you substitute that allegation BM?

                Innuendo in this situations does not help anyone least of all the 16 year olds.

              • Molly

                “For their parents not to know there must have been pressure applied to these young people to not say anything.”
                That’s an assumptive stretch, BM. Do better.

              • DoublePlusGood

                Are you alleging Labour covered up sexual assault? That’s not an appropriate allegation to be making.

              • Draco T Bastard

                What a load of bollocks.

                Many people when sexually assaulted don’t want to tell anybody. A lot of that is due to how we treat victims often going on victim bashing sprees through the MSM instead listening and acting appropriately.

        • Molly 2.2.1.4

          “If say someone was aware of the roastbusters – and said to the victims ‘you want to go to the police?’ – and then just did nothing if they didn’t?”
          The victims there did go to the police, and no charges were laid. So that provides context for whether there is a obligation to leap-frog over the victims and go to the police without their input. The trial itself can be a trigger for assault victims, so the decision should primarily be theirs.

          I would say, that the first instance should be of supporting the complainants – which includes encouraging police contact if appropriate – is a longer process than finding out and immediately making decisions. There has to be some time given to those assaulted to ensure that a police investigation won’t further add to their emotional burden, at that particular time.

    • james 2.3

      Just listened to the Checkpoint interview.

      Labour:
      Didn’t tell the police
      Didn’t tell the parents of the 16 yo kids
      Didn’t tell the PM

      But did get advise on how to handle it.

      Its starting to look a lot like Andrew Kirton has been trying to cover this up.

      • adam 2.3.1

        Now your just point scoring.

        Unseemly.

        • james 2.3.1.1

          Do you disagree with me?

          BTW – I wrote that after I had just listened to the interview and heard that they had chosen not to inform the parents.

        • BM 2.3.1.2

          Point scoring, unseemly? you creepy disgusting old shit.

          • adam 2.3.1.2.1

            Crawl back under the rock you came from [Edit. Best not to go there Adam – MS] (bm) . How about we let the victims make decisions before we start making accusations.

            But that all you do make assumptions and abuse people BM.

            The political mistakes and BS will be sorted out. Give the people involved some room before you make judgements.

            • BM 2.3.1.2.1.1

              Fuck off, you disgusting, sexual assault enabling old prick.

              [3 month ban. I’ve been watching your trolling since the election, and you appear to bring little to the site now. What is not ok is starting a flame war in a topic of this nature where many people are vulnerable. Throwing accusations around, using sexual assault to Labour-bash, it’s all the same kind of nasty, macho bullshit that makes it really hard to have meaningful conversations about rape culture on TS. – weka]

              • adam

                Oh do grow up BM.

                You have made nothing but allegations without substance. You don’t want solutions, your just trying to score points.

                If you want solutions, then let the right people do there jobs and help the people who needs help.

                As for accusations. I’d like an apology becasue nothing I’ve said has enabled anyone except those who want to get to the truth without political hacks trying to point score.

                • BM

                  Fuck off, you’re saying the labour party are the right people to handle and oversee these sexual assaults?

                  The same Labour party which was running the camps where these sexual assaults happened?

                  Shame on you Adam, the only thing you’re interested in here is making sure the Labour party doesn’t get splattered by the fall out of what went on at these camps, no concern of the actual victims.

                  Appalling hypocrisy

                  • Ed

                    I was banned for much much less than this.
                    How you right wing trolls get away with these levels of abuse beats me.

                  • adam

                    I’ve never said labour party anything, now your just making shit up. Or as we in the trade call it, your lying to score points.

                    I’ve said let the right people do their job. The right people would be social workers and counselors train for these events.

                    I don’t give a rats about the labour party – as you well know. Or are you just trying to score points again.

                    Your the lowest form of low life BM one who will lie to cover their tracks.

                    As it stands, we don’t know if it is a Sexual Assault as there have been no charges. All we know is a drink male acted like a complete tosser.

                    So kindly shut up, let the right people do there jobs so we can know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I know a bit much asking a right wing nutjob to be patient so truth can come out.

                    Because in the real world people, victims take time to come forward. They don’t work to political hack’s wannabe agendas.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    The hypocrisy, as per normal, is coming from the RWNJs as they attack for political point scoring rather than giving a fuck about the victims.

              • adam

                Question for moderators?

                So BM can make allegations with no substaine.

                Then rather than answer those allegations, all he has chosen to do abuse me with no substance.

                No debate, just abuse.

                • weka

                  No he can’t, he’s out for 3 months. You can see why in my moderator note above.

                  • gsays

                    Thank-you weka.
                    Amongst other things, there will be slightly less willy waving for 3 months.

                  • adam

                    Thanks for responding weka.

                    I just left for a bit, had enough of the accusations, and rubbish from BM.

            • james 2.3.1.2.1.2

              just as an aside – I thought it was against the rules to use peoples real name if they choose to use a handle?

        • Ed 2.3.1.3

          Very unseemly.
          We agree – get the police to complete a thorough investigation.

          • Carolyn_Nth 2.3.1.3.1

            Ardern should have been informed earlier. kirton’s for the high jump, I suspect.

      • patricia bremner 2.3.2

        *covering it up IF that is so, Mr. Kirton has made a grievous error of judgment. However James, are you aware that 16 year olds do not have to involve their parents, and no one can over ride that right. Only the Police if some one complains to them.

        Now, you are inferring drink was supplied by the organisers. IF that is so, another grievous error.

        But, worse, Jacinda Ardern was blidsided by this by journalist, because she had no knowledge of it. That was another grievous error.
        Personally I think he may lose his position.

        Jacinda was rightly angry. She won’t want it ‘covered up”

        • james 2.3.2.1

          “However James, are you aware that 16 year olds do not have to involve their parents, and no one can over ride that right.”

          However Patricia are you aware that if you are aware of multiple sexual assaults of 16yo kids – you can just go to the police.

          “”Only the Police if some one complains to them.”
          Yep – and Labour CHOSE NOT to let the police know about the attacks.

          “But, worse, Jacinda Ardern was blidsided by this by journalist”

          Sorry – that is not worse than what has happened.

    • weka 2.4

      There are definitely things here that Labour need to be held account for (without looking too deeply, not dealing with the assaults at the time or giving the victims adequate support, the lack of supervision at the social event, the amount of alcohol involved).

      You keep asking about the police, so it’s time for you to educate yourself about why the victims of sexual assault often don’t go to the police. You started this thread reasonably well, but it’s not going to be ok to turn this into an opportunity to Labour-bash nor to sensationalise the situation.

      My suggestion in general to the men here who want to have a shit fight about this, is to sit down and shut up, and start listening to what women are saying. Women generally understand what the issues are and how to talk about them without making the conversations unsafe or into flamewars.

      • james 2.4.1

        again – Im trying to be careful here with my reply – and again being very genuine and not basing or anything …

        “You keep asking about the police, so it’s time for you to educate yourself about why the victims of sexual assault often don’t go to the police.”

        In this instance – Labour knew that assaults had happened (according to AK). It wasn’t just against one person, but several.

        which takes me back to my original post:

        “If you are aware of multiple sexual assaults should a person not have the responsibility to report that to the police (and then the victim/s) could have the opportunity to press charges or not?”

        And given that the party would have an agenda for this NOT to move forward ?

        “Could an organisation not put pressure on a young person NOT to go to the police because (whatever)??? and if they do so – is this not enabling the attacker to carry on with the behaviour”. (AGAIN NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS THE CASE).

        Upshot – I really think that it should be with the police – not the party and the police and the victims should decide what to do.

        WEKA – given the nature of the topic – I want to be clear that this is a genuine question – not playing a silly game.

        • weka 2.4.1.1

          I don’t actually care what your reckons are James, because you seem to think that your opinion is the important thing here. I don’t know enough about the situation to make a judgement call on whether the police should have been involved or not. Mostly I would want to hear what the victims have to say about that. As I said, imo you need to educate yourself about rape culture and what going to the police means. Either you don’t, and are expressing opinion from a place of ignorance, or you do and you think your opinion should take precedence over the safety of the people assaulted.

          As I also said, Labour have not handled this well on a number of fronts. What they do next is going to be important.

          “AGAIN NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS THE CASE”

          Then why bring it up? At this stage we don’t know what happened. People will speculate, but there are still considered ways to think about this and then there are inflammatory ways.

        • McFlock 2.4.1.2

          If the victims were age ten, I’d right with an automatic parent and police referral.

          At sixteen they can probably make their own decisions, if they are treated with repect and will be clearly supported in any decision they made. And as long as everything is documented, there’s no rush to force them into any course of action.

          The lack of supervision at the event and the alcohol also need to be actively addressed.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 2.4.1.3

          ‘James’, like you I’m a positive person in ‘real life’, but here the rwnj commentariat (youself, Tanz, BM, Alwyn, chris73, funstigator, indiana, timeforacupoftea, solkta, Stunned mullet, Puckish Rogue, Alan, Tuppence Shrewsbury, Mikes, Antoine, fisiani (a deleted persona that existed only to adulate Honest John Key), et al. [apologies if I’ve got someone wrong]) bring out the worst in me.

          Your morals, and those of other rwnjs, strike me as out-of-whack, with ethical behaviour being ‘for others only’. I sometimes fantasise that most of the many rwnjs infesting The Standard (and there must be dozens of them) are actually one person, seated in a windowless room with a computer and an electronic whiteboard that lists various personas’ characteristics, backstories and where they stand on the rwnj spectrum.

          Your’ incessant ‘twitting’ is particularly disruptive – today alone you’ve ‘contributed’ 20 ‘twits’; are you paid ‘by the twit’, rather than ‘per word’?

          On a serious note, would you (’James’) care to share (briefly) the story of how someone who “left school at 15” became a successful “IT guy”, and more. C’mon, James, let your humble desire to help others inspire our struggling teens –

          Let’s do this 😉

          • James 2.4.1.3.1

            “On a serious note, would you (’James’) care to share (briefly) the story of how someone who “left school at 15” became a successful “IT guy”

            Sure. Normal school wasn’t for me.

            Self taught – worked extremely hard for a very long time.

            Had a natural leaning for IT and an ability to understand business issues and use technology to slove them.

            Nice that you have such an interest in me. personally I don’t give you a second thought.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 2.4.1.3.1.1

              ‘James’, thanks for those details, I’ll pass them on. Still on your ‘flame wars’ and ‘personal insults’ hobbyhorse – congrats.

              Not putting a second thought into your replies would explain why they make no sense.

              I am impressed by your preternatural awareness of envy, jealousy, bitterness and misery in others. Do you know anyone who doesn’t envy you?

              • James

                Your welcome.

                However I said that I don’t give you a second thought (as opposed to my replies as you said).

                Said in regard to you obviously having a bit of a crush on me of late (bless).

                Anyway- have work in the morning and have to head to the city – so I’m off to bed.

                Have a pleasant evening.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  ‘James’, fascinating that your extra-sensory perceptions now extend to detecting those that have a crush on you – how’s that working out for you?

                  Don’t understand how you can get up in the morning, what with all those admirers crushing on you – I’m jealous.

                  Sadly, it seems you have a major crush on The Standard of late. Will just have to grimace and bear it.

          • mikes 2.4.1.3.2

            You’ve definitely got me wrong, I’ve voter Labor my entire life.

            • weka 2.4.1.3.2.1

              They got solkta wrong too. Probably others.

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                Genuine apologies to ‘mikes’, ‘solkta’ and anyone else I’ve mis-represented in such ‘black and white’ terms – should have taken the time to do more research.

                If I could I would ‘de-list’ mikes/solkta, and add ‘infused’ and (the already gone) ‘Son of Don’.

                Also, shouldn’t have let ‘James‘ get under my skin, but he was on the verge of wetting himself over the ‘party political’ dimensions of the assaults, while displaying very little concern (genuine or otherwise) for the victims. Plus the whole ‘Tanz vs Anne vs James’ tit-for-tat nonsense.

                I’m going to button it for now – thanks (that’s genuine too) to Weka and other Standard authors/mods.

  3. adam 3

    EDIT: OK my original text just disappeared. This is one disabled person talking about their submission to the euthanasia disabled bill before parliament recently.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national-video/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=189737

  4. JanM 4

    ‘If you are aware of multiple sexual assaults should a person not have the responsibility to report that to the police (and then the victim/s) could have the opportunity to press charges or not?’
    Of course – and do you have any reason to think that has not been the case in this instance?
    In fact, I would expect, especially in view of the youthfulness of the victims, to be supportive of whatever action they wish to take.
    However, in view of the obnoxious attitude you frequently display on this site, I find it very difficult to believe that your concern, in this case, is genuine

    • james 4.1

      “‘If you are aware of multiple sexual assaults should a person not have the responsibility to report that to the police (and then the victim/s) could have the opportunity to press charges or not?’

      Of course – and do you have any reason to think that has not been the case in this instance?”

      Yes – I do because labour were aware of it and DIDNT report it to the police!

  5. Ed 5

    This is more like it.

    “Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has banned all Government departments from using a firm of private investigators for spying.”
    It follows a Newshub investigation that found state-owned insurers Southern Response got the investigators from Thompson and Clark to snoop on victims of the Christchurch earthquake at the taxpayers’ expense.
    Ms Ardern says this was “totally inappropriate” and other Government departments should not be using them.”

    Now let’s see the government adopt the same approach to Uber, Amazon, AMI, the Australian banks.
    Boot them all out.

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/03/pm-jacinda-ardern-bans-private-investigators-behind-southern-response-spying.html

    • james 5.1

      Boot out Amazon?

      Yeah – that would work – Can you imaging the outcry when everybodys netflix stops working (along with all the other businesses who rely on Amazon)

    • Stuart Munro 5.2

      There’s a difference between using public money to hire private investigators to suppress lawful dissent and the data collection that makes some large tech corporations questionable. Amazon et al don’t have the same duties in respect of the public as a public service.

      • gsays 5.2.1

        I would like to know the prime minister’s opinion on the police collecting data around an (a?) euthanasia meeting.

        Ok for the state to snoop around the citizenry but not a private company.

        • Stuart Munro 5.2.1.1

          I imagine that she’d be happy with the process in principle (police do have to investigate groups sometimes) but might consider it an example of particularly poor judgement.

          • gsays 5.2.1.1.1

            Funny you should put it like that.
            I thought it absolutely lacked principle and agree with you that it was poor judgement.

    • funstigator 5.3

      I’m sure Jacinta doesn’t want any investigations (private or otherwise) into the goings on in her Party. This is the tip of the iceberg apparently…

      • Louis 5.3.1

        Jacinta? the rest of your comment is wrong too.

        • Ross 5.3.1.1

          There was an article the other day about why some people confuse the NT sound with the ND sound…I think the former is more common and so our brain assumes that it’s likely to be correct.

          • veutoviper 5.3.1.1.1

            There is also no “d” in most (all?) Pacific languages – which came up last week as an explanation as to why Jacinda’s name was spelt with a “t” on banners, media reports etc in some countries visited by the Parliamentary Mission to Samoa, Niue,, Tonga and the Cook Islands last week.

  6. james 6

    Tim Murphy (Newsroom.co.nz) has just tweeted that”

    “hearing word that there may have been issues at previous Labour Youth camps …..”

    • patricia bremner 6.1

      Oh…. that Tim Murphy? The one who thought he had a “Mother of all stories ” about Winston? That guy?????

  7. james 7

    The story gets more interesting:

    Tim Murphy (Newsroom.co.nz):

    ‘sexual abuse counselling’ service Andrew Kirton mentions for victims was made available yesterday – Sunday – before the Monday story.

    WOW !!!

    • Ed 7.1

      I’m quite concerned by your excitement.
      There are victims here.
      You know that, don’t you?

  8. Drowsy M. Kram 8

    Establish what happened, and support the victims. Yes, there are other concerns (for example, James, with barely concealed glee, considers the story ‘interesting’), but the victims wishes are paramount.

    At the bottom of this post are some resources you can use without having to report officially, if you aren’t ready to take that step yet.

  9. Ed 9

    More signs of how climate change is affecting our country.
    The Herald calls it weird weather.
    Rachel Stewart asks if we’re worried yet.

    Catastrophic climate change is here.

    “Our barren Alps: Aerial survey shows snow loss ‘incredibly extreme’
    After a summer in which which January temperatures were nearly 3C warmer than average, it was expected the glaciers would lose mass and the snowlines would rise. But the results were far more dramatic than any past survey, and showed some of the Alps had barely any fresh snow at all.”

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/102181406/our-barren-alps-aerial-survey-shows-snow-loss-incredibly-extreme

  10. Tanz 10

    Oh dear, a scandal has broken. Surprise surprise. National would never stoop this low, and they would not hide it from the public and police. Always different when the left do it.

    [if you use this as an excuse to bash Labour or the left, you can expect to be banned. Only warning – weka]

    • KJT 11.1

      More “flexible” working hours wanted for less pay. The usual.

      “Managers” that cannot figure out how many workers they need each day, want the workers to cover the cost of their inability to do their sums.

  11. chris73 12

    Well I hope the kids involved get all the support and help they need first and foremost and the guy that did this gets punished accordingly and his name published with victims names and relationship to the crim, if any, suppressed

  12. Sanctuary 13

    Apart from anything else, this camp “scandal” business highlights some really, really bad political management from Labour. What on earth was Andrew Kirton thinking when he chose not to inform the PM? What a moron, any half-wit should have been able to work out it isn’t a good look for the PM to hear about such things through the news media.

    On the same day you have Jenny Salesa’s office giving a different line to the media on her travel expenses to the PM’s comments at Jacinda news conference.

    Both these stories are grist for the mill for our lazy, underfunded, gotcha! MSM.

    The only blessing is neither Clare Curran or Poto Williams said something idiotic on the same day.

    Labour needs to tighten the messaging discipline big time.

  13. xanthe 14

    I sense a feeling that “Jacinda should have been told” , I disagree , IMHO it is correct to keep a firewall between the political and organisational sections of the party, Its actually a sign that Kirton might have some smarts.

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    GreensBy Gareth Hughes
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